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Topic: Should We Forgive Those Who Show No Repentance?
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Carol Swenson
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posted
“If the same person sins against you seven times a day, and turns back to you seven times and says, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive” (Luke 17:4 NRSV).
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becauseHElives
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posted
"He breathed on them, and said unto them, receive the Holy Spirit. Whose so ever sins you remit, they are remitted unto them, and
whose so ever sins you retain, they are retained." Jn.20:23.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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byfaith
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
byfaith
You can copy and/or print this if you want.
http://thechristianbbs.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=000906
Next question. What would you do if you recognized that type of person here, on the Christian BBS? If you had a couple of years or more of experience with that person to be sure of it?
I don't know exactly what I would do (if it was a for sure, and proven thing), being a message board...that would be difficult to address.
I would pray hard about that and leave it to the higher authority to handle I suppose, as I would feel unqualified in making a final decision about what to do...(not being the board owner)
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byfaith
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi again Byfaith,
Please do not stop your personal conversation because of me. I was only trying to point out what I had believed Carol's post was referring to in case there had been some confusion.
With love in Christ, Daniel
thank you oneinchrist, I appreciate you clarifying for me. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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byfaith
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
quote:
no, I cannot walk away from the situation .
But they have been confronted with their sin and refuse to change.
You have an avalanche of sympathy from me. ![[hug]](graemlins/hug.gif)
So, you know that being polite and honest with that person does not help him (her) to repent. And if you're like me, you will talk about it with someone who understands.
thank you, yes, it is overwhelming sometimes, and I struggle greatly with the issue of being kind and forgiving in the midst of it all because when we have tried to get through to them in the past, things got worse. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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oneinchrist
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posted
Hi again Byfaith,
Please do not stop your personal conversation because of me. I was only trying to point out what I had believed Carol's post was referring to in case there had been some confusion.
With love in Christ, Daniel
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Carol Swenson
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posted
I think this topic can be expanded to include any unrepented sin. If I had a friend who was abusive to animals, for example, his sin is not against me, but I would certainly still feel involved.
quote:
no, I cannot walk away from the situation .
But they have been confronted with their sin and refuse to change.
You have an avalanche of sympathy from me.
So, you know that being polite and honest with that person does not help him (her) to repent. And if you're like me, you will talk about it with someone who understands.
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byfaith
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi Byfaith,
I think that Carols post was even more specific than "unrepentant sin"(in general). It was speaking about "unrepentant sin AGAINST ANOTHER PERSON". And yes, false accusations or gossip would fall into the category of sin against another person........but homosexuality is not a sin against another person. We would not need to go up to a practicing homosexual in church and tell him that we are willing to forgive him if he repents............although we are called to warn him of his persistant God dis-honoring lifestyle that leads only to destruction if he/she continues to go unrepentant.
With love in Christ, Daniel
thanks oneinchrist, I see what you are saying.
I was on another page - a whole other topic I suppose.
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oneinchrist
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posted
Hi Byfaith,
I think that Carols post was even more specific than "unrepentant sin"(in general). It was speaking about "unrepentant sin AGAINST ANOTHER PERSON". And yes, false accusations or gossip would fall into the category of sin against another person........but homosexuality is not a sin against another person. We would not need to go up to a practicing homosexual in church and tell him that we are willing to forgive him if he repents............although we are called to warn him of his persistant God dis-honoring lifestyle that leads only to destruction if he/she continues to go unrepentant.
With love in Christ, Daniel
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byfaith
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Member # 8061
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
In a situation that you can't walk away from?
no, I cannot walk away from the situation .
But they have been confronted with their sin and refuse to change.
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Carol Swenson
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posted
In a situation that you can't walk away from?
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byfaith
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
byfaith
Yeah, like that!
Let me ask you a question. Have you ever had to deal closely and continuously with a manipulative, evasive, deceitful person?
MentorsRiddle
I agree!
oh yes, I have and do now deal with someone like that...(a family member) that I cannot break fellowship with entirely...because of family get-togethers and such. Takes a great deal of prayer-covering before being with them.
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Carol Swenson
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posted
byfaith
Yeah, like that!
Let me ask you a question. Have you ever had to deal closely and continuously with a manipulative, evasive, deceitful person?
MentorsRiddle
I agree!
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MentorsRiddle
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Member # 2108
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posted
But I’d also like to note that while we can turn away from their sin, it is important to know they will always have a place as a friend should they choose to let their sinful nature go.
--------------------
With you I rise,
In you I sleep,
kneeling down I kiss your feet,
Grace abounds upon me now,
I once was lost
but now I'm found.
The gift of God dwells within,
To this love I now give in.
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byfaith
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posted
ah, I think I was on a different page than you
what you are specifically speaking of is unrepentant sin.
Yes, like homosexuality is an unrepentant sin that we cannot condone or allow them to continue fellowship when they do not turn away from it.
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Carol Swenson
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posted
quote:
Have you ever seen someone falsely accused and ridiculed? What about that situation, how are we to view that.
We just talked about false accusations. About ridicule then...
I am not willing to see someone fall deeper into sin because I'm afraid to be impolite. And I know that my own bad temper was cured by someone who always laughed at me when I got mad. Thinking back, it's better that than a cruel, ugly shouting match. I came to see my behavior as silly and childish.
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byfaith
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posted
among brothers and sisters, yes we have to be firm, I agree.
We don't condone what they have done when it something obvious to all.
What I am talking about though is gossip and false accusations. That is another matter right?
Have you ever seen someone falsely accused and ridiculed? What about that situation, how are we to view that.
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Carol Swenson
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posted
byfaith,
And among Christian brothers, if forgiveness and reconciliation are at stake?
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oneinchrist
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Member # 6532
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posted
Quote from Carol's post:
Frankly, one of the most damaging things we can do is to absolve them unilaterally of their wrong. For if we do, we have effectively made it more difficult for them to acknowledge their wrong in the first place. END
I agree with this above quote from Carol's post.
If our desire is the same desire of the Holy Spirit.......which is to see the offender reconciled to God.......... we(the offended) have to be willing to rebuke the offender and call out the sin against us. We know the scriptures that clearly teach us that we are not forgiven by God unless we repent.........so to hold back a rebuke when it is needed is one of the worse things a Chrisitian can do(refer to Wild B's post on the Watchmen for "failing to warn or rebuke" when the Holy Spirit points out the sin)
Now here is the difficult part. Not only is it fitting (biblically) for the offended person to approach the offender( church leader support is needed and Holy Spirit direction in situations that the nature of the crime is for ex: murder, child molestation, etc ) and rebuke them for thier sin against them..............but we are called to go even further........we are to tell them that we are willing to forgive them if they will acknowledge their sin and admit personal responsibility. This is where we are put to the test. Its easier to point out the sin, but its harder to be willing to forgive them.
Now, what if they refuse to admit wrong(even if they are truely in the wrong). I will tell you I have struggled with this dilemma in my life and I have searched scriptures and prayed over this. My current thoughts on this are............
We are not to seek any form of revenge, or to go out of our way to make them any more miserable. We are to pray to the Lord for strength to resist a growing bitterness towards the offender...........but (for the reason specified in the quote of Carol's that I cited above) we are not to go to the offender and PERSONALLY FORGIVE THEM TO THEIR FACE. I can see how some people may think this lends credibily to the gospel, but what it really does is leaves a criminal more likely to justify his sin instead of seeing sin the way God sees it, confessing it, and forsaking it. The motive for us needs to be to see the restoration of the offender to fellowship with God.........ask God to help you to hold no ill feelings towards the offender, but only PERSONALLY FORGIVE THEM IF THEY ACKNOWLEDGE THEIR FAULT TO YOU PERSONALLY.
This is what I believe scripture teaches.
With love in Christ, Daniel
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byfaith
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posted
I would. I also think though that it depends on what is involved...like personal details for instance.
I guess I am saying that not all things are up for disclosure? or that it isn't always necessary in disputable matters.
In a court room setting, sure...tell all that is needed to show innocence.
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Carol Swenson
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posted
byfaith,
If I were wrongly accused of something, I would certainly want to bring the truth to light, offering all the facts and evidence necessary so my accuser could see them.
Wouldn't you?
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byfaith
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
quote:
Originally posted by byfaith:
Carol,
I think that we are to forgive if we think they have wronged us, but sometimes we may "think" we are right when we are not.
Wrongfully accusing someone also is a sin.
It takes a lot of energy to be angry and carry a grudge.
We are ALL guilty and in need of forgiveness in some area of our lives.
Good morning byfaith,
It isn't really a matter of being angry at someone in a self-centered way.
It's a matter of taking them by the hand and leading them out of the dark into the light again.
I can agree with that that is something that many won't do for someone they feel wronged by.
I was just pointing out the possible other outcome, and I have been guilty of this in my past, that maybe we seek for someone to repent of something that we think they have done when they haven't. (this is coming from my personal experience years ago).
But I do understand what you are saying also with the post.
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Carol Swenson
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by byfaith:
Carol,
I think that we are to forgive if we think they have wronged us, but sometimes we may "think" we are right when we are not.
Wrongfully accusing someone also is a sin.
It takes a lot of energy to be angry and carry a grudge.
We are ALL guilty and in need of forgiveness in some area of our lives.
Good morning byfaith,
It isn't really a matter of being angry at someone in a self-centered way.
It's a matter of taking them by the hand and leading them out of the dark into the light again. But it isn't easy. They have to repent, and agree to return to the light.
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MentorsRiddle
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posted
quote:
But aside from our feelings, we do not forgive unrepented sin. We do not tell someone it's okay to go on sinning.
I understand what you are saying here, but because I forgive someone does not imply that I am saying it is ok to continue in sin.
They will know I disagree with them, because I will rebuke them and discontinue my relationship with them.
They can know I forgive them and I don’t hold any hard feelings against them, but that so long as they continue in sin I will not be around them.
For example, a once-friend-roommate of mine did me wrong.
I told him I forgive him, but I would like to discontinue our relationship.
He left the house, continued in his evil deeds, only later to realize he did wrong and began correcting his ways.
He became my friend again, because he knew I had forgiven him and would not be mean to him should he try to contact me again.
He knew that I wasn’t around because of his sin, and that he had the option at any time to rectify the situation.
Once he realized his lifestyle was negative and understood why, he fixed it.
--------------------
With you I rise,
In you I sleep,
kneeling down I kiss your feet,
Grace abounds upon me now,
I once was lost
but now I'm found.
The gift of God dwells within,
To this love I now give in.
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Carol Swenson
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Member # 6929
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posted
Hi MentorsRiddle
Who said anything about hatred and anger?
In another topic awhile back it was brought out that Satan does not care who we hate or why we hate, only that we do hate. Satan can use negative thoughts and feelings to his advantage and cause us to sin.
Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things. (Philippians 4:8)
But aside from our feelings, we do not forgive unrepented sin. We do not tell someone it's okay to go on sinning.
The reason why we rebuke someone is because we love him/her (2 Cor. 2:4) and the goal is that the person will learn and grow.
When Paul and Barnabas encountered false teaching, they publically disputed the claims of the false teachers (Acts 15:1-2). When Ananias lied before the church, he was rebuked before the church (Acts 5:1-5). When a man sinned so that the entire community knew of the sin, the church was commanded to withdraw from him immediately (I Corinthians 5:1-5).
When people neglect to rebuke those who are straying from the truth, it gives falsehood the opportunity to spread. “For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole households, teaching things which they ought not, for the sake of dishonest gain” (Titus 1:10-11).
Uncorrected problems never shrink, they grow until they sweep whole congregations away from the truth. “Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump” (I Corinthians 5:6-7).
Even in the Old Testament, God complained that the Israelite leaders were silent dogs; they were unable to give warning when danger approached and so Israel became corrupted by sin (Isaiah 56:10-11).
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byfaith
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posted
Carol,
I think that we are to forgive if we think they have wronged us, but sometimes we may "think" we are right when we are not.
Wrongfully accusing someone also is a sin.
It takes a lot of energy to be angry and carry a grudge.
We are ALL guilty and in need of forgiveness in some area of our lives.
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MentorsRiddle
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posted
Carol, this is a really good question; one that I believe deserves not only a closer look but also deep thought.
By nature Christians are taught to forgive someone of their sins against us, no matter what the situation.
I must say, human nature dictates that we hold grudges – which is to say the sin nature dictates that for us.
However, I am lead by the spirit (I feel) to forgive someone no matter what the situation – it just feels right.
I like to think that I, being lead by the divine nature and not the sin nature, think in a manner that is superior to the sin nature.
That being said, I do not like to hold grudges and readily forgive someone who sins against me.
That does not mean that I will run out and continue spending time with someone who has turned their back on me; but rather that I will forgive them for what they have done.
I believe hate and un-forgiveness eats people up inside and can do more damage than good.
Harboring anger can only lead to sadness on our part, I believe.
Again, I usually try to do my best to forgive someone, no matter what the situation – but even doubly so if that person asks for it.
What do you think?
--------------------
With you I rise,
In you I sleep,
kneeling down I kiss your feet,
Grace abounds upon me now,
I once was lost
but now I'm found.
The gift of God dwells within,
To this love I now give in.
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Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
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posted
 Should We Forgive Those Who Show No Repentance?
Does Scripture support our practice of forgiving our offenders even if they are unrepentant?
Christians often feel obligated to forgive everyone who offends them even if the offenders are sometimes unrepentant or without remorse. But it’s a good question to consider if this practice is biblically supported.
Some argue there is clear biblical teaching to support what I call “unilateral” or “one-way” forgiveness. For example, didn’t Jesus say that if someone sins against us 77 times we are to forgive (see Matthew 18:21-22)?
However, do these verses really demand we practise unilateral forgiveness? A similar passage in Luke adds an important point of clarification. As Jesus says, “If the same person sins against you seven times a day, and turns back to you seven times and says, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive” (Luke 17:4 NRSV).
So Jesus is not encouraging one-way forgiveness at all but, rather, that forgiveness should not be withheld from those who repent. Thus, Matthew 18 more accurately speaks to those who think (like Peter did) that there must be a point where forgiveness can legitimately be withheld. But Jesus’ answer is clear: No – not if there is repentance.
But what about Jesus’ own words from the cross? “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing” (Luke 23:34). While this might seem to be a powerful example of Christ’s unilateral forgiveness, take another look. Interestingly, Jesus’ words are not at all a declaration of forgiveness to those unrepentant soldiers who crucified Him; rather, they are a prayer to God the Father on the soldiers’ behalf.
Even if we were to conclude that Jesus unilaterally forgave those who crucified Him, we must take into account the unique situation these soldiers were in: no one had ever, nor would again, commit the sin of putting God’s Son to death. It may be due to the extraordinary circumstances that Jesus prayed as He did.
Consequently, we should not derive a universal principle of the practice of unilateral forgiveness from what is clearly an unrepeated set of circumstances for a limited number of persons as enacted by none other than the Son of God Himself.
Beyond the need to look more carefully at the texts that are often used to defend unilateral forgiveness, we should think about what we are asking Christians to do when we demand that they forgive the unrepentant.
Indeed, to ask Christians to forgive unilaterally is to ask them to do what even God does not apparently do. If 1 John 1:9 is instructive, it is that God’s forgiveness is linked in an important way to human confession or acknowledgement of sin. Thus, God’s example is not that He forgives automatically without anyone asking but that he freely and faithfully forgives those who do acknowledge the sins the Holy Spirit points out to them.
So what then is forgiveness? The biblical meaning of the term is often confused with another important biblical concept, namely, reconciliation: living in complete harmony and peace with one another.
Forgiveness is not the same as reconciliation but is a step along the way toward reconciliation. Thus, a more precise biblical view of forgiveness is “cancellation of debt” or, as I put it, agreeing to put ourselves on level ground with those who have hurt us in the hope that full reconciliation might occur.
Forgiveness says “I refuse to hold this sin against you once you have acknowledged it. I refuse to use it as present or future leverage against you. And I refuse to let it be an obstacle toward reconciling with you.”
So how should Christians respond to unrepentant offenders? Frankly, one of the most damaging things we can do is to absolve them unilaterally of their wrong. For if we do, we have effectively made it more difficult for them to acknowledge their wrong in the first place.
So the Christian obligation is not to ignore our feelings of anger or hurt, nor to cover things over by a cheery face, but to lay the offences of those who harm us at the foot of the cross and, as God does in Christ Jesus, to be ready to forgive when the offenders acknowledge their wrong. But whatever we do we should not forgive offences until offenders recognize their need for it.
http://www.christianity.ca/NETCOMMUNITY/Page.aspx?pid=5040
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