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Topic: At what hour was Jesus crucified?
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Betty Louise
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posted
I heard a "Christian" arguing with an atheist on a talk show put up on youtube the other day. The atheist was making fun of Christians who believe Noah existed. This talk show host who said he was a Christian said that the Old Testament was written by prophets and that it was all allegory. I may be naive, but I do expect to meet Noah in Heaven.
My point. I believe when the Bible says Jesus rose on the first day, He rose on the first day. We either believe the Bible is the inspired word of God or we do not.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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byfaith
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To those who have faith, no explanation is necessary; To those without faith, no explanation is possible.
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byfaith
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That is, if a person is NOT going to save himself because "there are some contradictory statements in the NT", that person never had any intention of saving himself in the first place.
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sadly,this says it all doesn't it?
Thanks for the info Eden.
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Eden
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byfaith wrote quote:
So then Eden, what conclusion do you come to for this subject?
copyist error or another reason/explanation?
I am really wanting to get this answer, I just know it will come up in conversation with an unbeliever.
According to Josh McDowell, we have some 24,000 New Testament (NT) manuscripts (mss), either complete or fragmentary, as stated below (taken from the Internet):
"We have today in our possession 5,300 known Greek manuscripts of the New Testament, another 10,000 Latin Vulgates, and 9,300 other early versions (MSS), giving us more than 24,000 manuscript copies of portions of the New Testament today. (taken from McDowell's Evidence That demands a Verdict, vol.1, 1972 pgs.40-48; and Time, January 23, 1995, pg.57)."
In the early days of the church, in the 1st and 2nd and 3rd century A.D., the churches were separated from each other by considerable distances, and each church tended to collect and preserve the gospel mss/letters that they had in
their possession.
By the 4th century A.D., there were so many mss/letters in existence, some with copyist variances, that (I think) a council was held to decide on the best mss/letters to preserve as our current NT.
So depending on whether John's "sixth hour" or Mark's "third hour" is repeated over and over in the majority of the manuscripts or in the "best" manuscripts, depending on how John's "sixth hour" or Mark's "third hour" go back in time and remain that way, the less likely it is that it was originally a "copyist" error generated in one of the churches, which then gained "popular acceptance" as being part of the "best" mss that made it into our NT.
In other words, if a copyist made the error originally, say in a monastery in North Africa in the 200s A.D., the other mss. that we have would presumably NOT have that copyist error and it would have been obvious to those deciding on the "best" mss that that error was NOT in the majority of the other mss.
So in order for it to be a copyist error, this error would have had to be made "very early in the mss copying process", when the churches were still few and the mss/letters were still mostly being shared among the churches.
So if it is NOT a copyist error, then it is possible that either Mark or John just misstated at what hour Jesus was crucified, and of these two I would probably choose John as the more reliable writer because he was "lying on the breast of Jesus" more than Mark.
Then others will say, "but isn't all scripture inspired of the Holy Spirit", and my answer to that would be, that the Holy Spirit probably did NOT cause the writers to "auto-write", meaning that the Holy Spirit did NOT cause the hands of the writers to move involuntarily to write all the words of the New Testament. Rather the Holy Spirit "brought things to the remembrance" of the writers:
John 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said to you.
And lastly, John plainly says that "Jesus did many more things than those that are written" but that "what was written is sufficient to get a man saved":
John 21
24This is the disciple which testifies of these things and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.
25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
John 20
31 But these are written, that you might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you might have life through his name.
It is generally believed that Paul's letters were the first NT mss. that we have, and that the gospels were written after that, or thus between 60 A.D. and 100 A.D.
That is to say, that even if either Mark or John somehow misstated at what hour Jesus was crucified, it would NOT be a sufficient enough "error" to cause a "thoughtful" person to NOT believe, because THERE IS PLENTY OF OTHER EVIDENCE IN THE NT to cause people to save themselves.
That is, if a person is NOT going to save himself because "there are some contradictory statements in the NT", that person never had any intention of saving himself in the first place.
To me, it does not matter if there are some contradictory statements in the NT, in fact I would expect there to be some, given the variously chaotic geo-political conditions and daily life conditions that prevailed in those times, but instead I agree with John that what IS written is sufficient to be saved by:
John 20
31 But these are written, that you might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you might have life through his name.
love, Eden
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byfaith
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So then Eden, what conclusion do you come to for this subject?
copyist error or another reason/explanation?
I am really wanting to get this answer, I just know it will come up in conversation with an unbeliever.
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Eden
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The following seems to refute the idea that the Romans kept different "hours" than the Jews. Posted from the Internet:
Telling Time in Ancient Rome
The Sundial
The Romans first used the sun's movement to measure the passage of time. Using this method they could precisely measure only sunrise, midday, and sunset, but they used the length of shadows to estimate other times of the day. The introduction of the sundial gave the Romans a new tool to better measure time. Travelers from Sicily brought the sundial to Rome in 263 B.C. and set it up in the Forum, where it became a popular meeting place.
People came to check the time, to socialize, and "to see and to be seen." Other sundials were set up in public buildings or squares. Only the wealthy could afford to have one in their own homes and it quickly became a status symbol. Most people still just used the sun and its movements. The sundial enabled the Romans to divide the day into 12 equal parts, or hours. The hours became a way to mark time and meetings.
Courts opened at about the third hour, for example, and lunch was at midday, the sixth hour. People would go home to eat a leisurely lunch and take a siesta, returning to work in a few hours. People in Rome today still leave work at 1:00 and return to work from 4:00 to 7:00.
sunrise solis ortus
midday meridies
sunset solis occasus
The day was divided into ante meridiem (before midday) and post meridiem (after midday.) These divisions are still used today and abbreviated a.m. and p.m.
first hour (prima hora) about 7:00 a.m.
Sixth hour (sexta hora) midday
Twelfth hour (duodecima hora) hour before sunset (about 6:00 p.m.)
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The above seems to show that the romans kept the same hour schedule as the Jews, so that even if John used "roman time", it was the same as Jewish time", and probably all who used the sundial kept time like the Jews did because it was, after all, the sundial.
love, Eden
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byfaith
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ah, I see...thank you ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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WildB
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The Roman day watch began at midnight.
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That is all.....
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byfaith
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wildb, can you explain further? I'm not seeing a connection.
![[1zhelp]](graemlins/1zhelp.gif)
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WildB
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Military watch duty was broken up in rotating shifts.
Standard was 4 hr/shift but could be shortened or increased as conditions warranted.
The mid watch being the hardest. On that day you could expect to get only a few hours of sleep.
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That is all.....
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byfaith
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I am assuming so, and cannot be dogmatic...
There are those who believe that it is a copyist error, and then those that say the 6th hour was used like this:
In John 19:14 the phrase “and about the sixth hour” does not refer to the time of day at all, but rather to the amount of time that had passed from the initial arrest of Jesus till the time the nation as a whole pronounced their fatal verdict of “Crucify him”.
So, which one of these scenarios are you more inclined to believe?
this is a thought provoking discussion,and would be great to have an answer to the unbelievers who question the Bible's infallibility.
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Eden
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so byfaith, is that how the people who owned sundials talked?, "the third hour" and "the sixth hour", just like the Jews? Is that historically how tribes of the sundial era, talked as far as you know?
love, Eden
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byfaith
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quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
So eventhough John supposedly used "roman time", did the romans still use the phrases "the third hour" and "the sixth hour"?
Eden
I say yes, they did use that terminology because I believe that they used sundials.
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Eden
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So eventhough John supposedly used "roman time", did the romans still use the phrases "the third hour" and "the sixth hour"?
Eden
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WildB
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Your right. I put a better one up. ThanX for noticing.
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That is all.....
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Carol Swenson
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lol
What happened to your avatar? I think that site went AWOL.
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WildB
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Your bad.lol.
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That is all.....
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Carol Swenson
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Yeah! Now that's a good question... ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
I was thinking the other day that if someone in the Bible had said, "My Uncle kicked the bucket. I'm sure going to miss him.", then we would spend a month arguing about the purpose of the bucket, and what material the bucket was made of, and why kicking it was so terrible, and what he should have done instead of kicking it, and what happened after he kicked it - was he exiled or executed? Was the bucket damaged or defiled from being kicked?
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WildB
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Next thing you know you guys will be arguing about how many angels you can put on a pin head.
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That is all.....
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Carol Swenson
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I agree. The problem is that some say the Roman day began at midnight, as I believe. Others say the Roman day began at sunrise, which would put the 6th hour at noon.
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byfaith
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I assumed that he gave Roman time because of his audience.
Primarily non-Jewish.
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Carol Swenson
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Yes, that works with Mark. But not with John who wrote the "6th hour."
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becauseHElives
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Notice that according to St. Mark, Jesus went to the cross at the third hour, which in Jewish time corresponds to our 9AM [Mark 15:25], and according to the Gospel accounts He gave up His life at the ninth hour, our 3PM.
The Jewish day began at sundown. The daytime was divided into 12 seasonal hours, but the day division of hours was focused on the schedule of the Tamid sacrifice.
Ma'ariv or evening prayer began at sundown [hours of prayer see Mishnah Berakhot]. According to the Jewish Book of Why, volume I the Ma'ariv is a later addition, instituted after the destruction of the Temple in AD 70. The Jewish Talmud records the late addition of the Ma'ariv service which is not connected with the sacrificial system. [Jewish Book of Why, volume I, page 148].
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Carol Swenson
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That chart puts the 6th hour (John 19:14) at noon, three hours after Jesus was crucified.
The Jews and the Romans used different standards for reckoning the hours of the day, although both systems split the day into two periods of 12 hours. A new day for the Romans began at midnight (as it does for us today), whereas a new day for the Jews began in the evening at what we would call 6 p.m.
Various clues within the fourth gospel indicate that John was using the Roman system (Geisler and Howe, 1992, p. 376). This makes sense given that John was writing outside of Palestine to a Hellenistic audience. That Mark used a Jewish system makes sense in light of the strong tradition that his gospel account follows sermons delivered by the apostle Peter (Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, 3.39). As always, we have to take into account the context, as well as cultural differences between the Jewish and Gentile worlds.
Given this distinction, the problem disappears. John has Pilate handing Jesus over for crucifixion at 6 a.m., and Mark has Jesus on the cross three hours later at 9 a.m. (i.e., “the third hour”). In fact, John begins his whole account of Jesus’ audience with Pilate by noting that it was “early morning” (18:28). This reference follows immediately after Peter and the rooster crowing incident. Roosters, of course, can crow at any time, but are most famous for signaling the beginning of a new day.
This is perfectly consistent with Mark’s account. The previous evening, Jesus and the disciples traveled from the upper room to the Mount of Olives and then to Gethsemane. The disciples fell asleep, and Jesus had to wake them in order to meet the arresting mob. Mark records the rooster crowing incident, and notes that the Jews delivered Jesus to Pilate “in the morning” (15:1). A skeptic might doubt that the events at the Prætorium took place at such an early hour (i.e., before 6 a.m.), but there is no evidence for this objection, and there is no inconsistency in the Gospel accounts.
http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/451
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Eden
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byfaith wrote quote:
It is my understanding that John was using Roman time vs Jewish time.
Okay, explain the difference to me please, how the Roman time functioned compared to the Jewish time.
Also, why would John, a Galilean who was presumably of Hebrew stock (I think only one or two of the disciples that Jesus chose were said to be "canaanite"), why would John use "roman time" and not "Hebrew time", especially since John was one of Jesus's favorite disciples?
Also, if I'm not mistaken, Jesus was first brought into Caiaphas's house, and Peter also made it into the courtyard of Caiaphas's house and while Jesus was there, Peter warmed himself at the fire when the rooster crowed three times, meaning it was "daybreak" because roosters crow at daybreak, or around 6 a.m.
Indeed, Peter could see Jesus at the time that Jesus was in the house of Caiaphas because Jesus looked at Peter:
Luke 22:61
And the Lord turned and looked upon Peter. And Peter remembered the word of the Lord, how he had said to him, Before the rooster crows, you shall deny me three times.
Off the top of my head, Jesus was then sent variously to King Herod and to Pontius Pilate and eventually the procession through Jerusalem to Calvary took place and then the nailing to the cross, all of which must have taken considerable time.
So that it is actually more likely that Jesus was crucified at noon, 6 hours AFTER daybreak when the rooster crowed, or thus the sixth hour of Jewish time, instead of Mark's third hour which would have been at 9 a.m., or only 3 hours after the rooster crowed.
So in that case, the idea that one of them used "roman time" instead of "Jewish time" would have to go to Mark rather than to John.
So tell me again, what's the difference between "roman time" and "Jewish time", please?
love, Eden
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Betty Louise
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byfaith,
That makes sense.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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byfaith
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It is my understanding that John was using Roman time vs Jewish time.
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Eden
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At what hour was Jesus crucified? According to Mark, Jesus was crucified at the third hour or 9 a.m.:
Mark 15:25
And it was the third hour and they crucified him.
The Jews divided the daytime into 12 hours, starting from (about) 6 a.m to 6 pm, so that the third hour was about 9 a.m., i.e., Jesus was crucified at 9 a.m., according to Mark.
But according to John, Jesus was crucified at about the sixth hour, or at noon:
John 19:13-15
13 When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he brought Jesus forth and sat down in the judgment seat in a place that is called the Pavement, but in the Hebrew, Gabbatha.
14 And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he said to the Jews, Behold your King!
15 But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate said to them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar.
So according to Mark, Jesus was crucified at the third hour or 9 a.m., and according to John, Jesus was crucified at the sixth hour or noon?
How can that be?
love, Eden
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