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Author
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Topic: Time and Eternity
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Brother Paul
Advanced Member
Member # 7959
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posted
I know my speculations do not count for much, and would not be dogmatic about it but if we experience consciously in our glorified bodies yet there is no more chronos/time in Heaven or in the new Earth (no change, decay, disease, or death) we somehow percieve in a state of timeless existence...then an eternal now is as good as any other term to describe this.
Brother Paul
Posts: 235 | From: Cambridge, MA | Registered: Dec 2009
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TB125
Advanced Member
Member # 2450
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posted
Brother Paul,
This is an excellent explanation of some of the basic aspects of this topic "Time and Eternity". I think that I understand your perspective. I would simply state my perspective in this way: when God does away with the "instruments" for measuring "time" and "eternity" there will be nothing left for anyone but to experience one's existence without such measurements. Not only will "time" be immeasurable and irrelevant, but it will be completely absorbed in the experience of the "NOW". Does that make sense in your perspective?
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Bob
Posts: 449 | From: Rockford Illinois | Registered: Nov 2003
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Brother Paul
Advanced Member
Member # 7959
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posted
What we know of Heaven is very limited. The souls awaiting the judgment in Revelations 7 are before the 24 elders, there is worship, lamentation, and petition. In Isaiah’s vision we see the majesty of heavenly angelic worship. However notice that in both cases there is interaction with the souls that are there. There are things that appear to be objects to the recipient of the revelator. These various creatures have definite form and purpose. There are specified roles they perform. Even in Luke 16 (Lazarus and the Rich Man) the angels are ministering to Lazarus and the Rich man communicates with the angel. So we see many heavenly activities. It is a place or realm if you will. So before we can understand time in relation to the afterlife, we have to understand the difference between two realms, the eternal and the temporal.
In the West, there has been some confusion as to the more accurate sense of the terms “eternal“ and “eternity”. Many western thinkers, though not all, have had a far different idea than their eastern counterparts (which includes the Semites), regarding what this concept actually means, and further still, in modern times, even in the east, most people have more or less lost sight of it’s deeper implications. In fact, only among the philosophically or religiously oriented, and perhaps a few of the more visionary physicists has anyone even bothered pondering such magnanimity.
As a result, some of the modern expressions of Judaism and Christianity have sometimes formed rather erroneous ideas (reflecting a basis in this misunderstanding). Within the whole counsel of God found in the Scriptures, we have revealed to us just what this quality of life called “eternal” is.
In English speaking countries, the word “eternal“ is often used synonymously with the word “everlasting“. This in itself is erroneous! In fact, if you open an English Dictionary, one term is often used to define the other in a rather nondescript circular sort of fashion. However, God having revealed Himself as “the Eternal”, the whole counsel of God’s word bears out a more precise meaning in His progressive self-revelation to man. The word “everlasting” describes a continuance or endurance, in a linear sense, predominantly through time, while “eternal” seems to describe something that simply IS. Time is a function of the Universe and “eternal” describes the nature of God…a quality of life/being that existed before time itself, and will still be the present reality after time, along with the creation, have ceased to exist.
Therefore, “eternity” shares more in common with the modern philosophical sense of infinitude, while its association with the idea of “everlasting” is often misconstrued as some kind of continuation of this existence as we now know it. The primary difference is borne out, in that, when applied to life “eternal” appears to be a qualitative term, while “everlasting” is more of a quantitative term. One speaks to a type of existence the other to a length of existence. In fact, the Hebrew word “olam“ bears more of a ‘sense’ of “being without limit, boundary, or end.” Some today like to say that it means "without an end in sight", however that still implies an ending is possible, and thus also possibly having a beginning, and this would be ludicrous when referring to God, or to that life which is of Him (eternal life), who is Himself by nature, without a beginning or an end, and is Himself outside of time, for again time is merely a function of the creation and as pointed out elsewhere, changes with spatial location and speed!
It is also said of the Eternal, i.e., God, that He is immutable. God changes not, while the temporal realm is obviously a realm of continuous flux! According to the Scriptures, time itself is implied in the idea of “…the beginning,” and eventually time ends. When His purpose for it has been fulfilled, again according to the Scriptures, it will be thrown into the lake of fire along with the corruption of the grave and with death (Revelations 10:6), and “time will be no more”. For you see with God, the past, present, and future are one. He is the beginning and the end! Not being first one and then becoming the other, but unchangeably one! He ever existed without change and the temporal occurred as a figure against He who is ground.
Therefore, the correct application of the term "everlasting", is a word that describes something that can definitely have a beginning, and may only last as long as there is an ever! It is a temporal term. It clearly expresses a continuum from one point to another, even if that point is beyond time as we know it, “with no particular end in sight”. Certainly eternity would have its own sense of measurement of existence and cannot be properly fathomed from this finite perspective. That which is the true Eternal however, i.e., God Himself, has no actual beginning and no ending, but simply is! When we receive God’s gift of eternal life we are receiving His life within us, which by nature has no beginning and will likewise have no end, thus no developmental progression. In our temporal experience we progress and develop but within Him “it is finished”.
Now that which is not God Himself, which He has created to share eternity, such as various orders of angelic beings and our human spirits, are in a temporal sense also everlasting. However, though they have a point of origin, they will not cease to be because they have been gifted eternal life. After time is no more, like God, they simply will be! Their eternal nature which is made “in the image of“ the Eternal God, and after His likeness, does not cease! On the other hand, as already indicated, that which is everlasting, could last only as long as there is an ever, such as time itself, yet it is not necessarily eternal in the sense of infinitude. 'In time', we have motion from a point in an experiential past, through a present, and into a not yet experienced future. Eternity contains no such demarcations. Christ was crucified before the foundation of the world. We who by God’s foreknowledge were elected, were elected in Him before the foundation of the world. For us we wait, for the Lord, it is finished. So the Kingdom is here now but we are told to pray “thy Kingdom come.” We have been redeemed (aortist tense in the Scriptures which means an unending continuance) but yet we await our final redemption when He returns to claim that which is His. Do you see? As a Spirit born Child of God you have life in both realms, the eternal and the temporal, NOW! You have an amount of delegated authority in both realms, NOW! The Lord is the author and finisher of your faith, NOW, even though temporally you experience the continuous development of your faith and faithfulness, but in truth though you see yourself in the temporal as sometimes failing you are not because it is all that which the Lord is working together for your ultimate good. You are being raised up, trained, etc., and the more you can see that and yield to the move of the Spirit (even amidst trial and heartache and moments of backsliding) the more progress you make in the temporal (which He uses to bring in others that are to be saved in the temporal that are already elect in the eternal from before the foundation of the world).
In Light of the word of YHVH and the Christ events in this realm, one important question arises regarding the where/how we will spend “eternity.” That post temporal experiential NOW that we cannot fully relate to while here in the flesh (though for some, for a moment, He has parted the veil, such as with the Prophets or Gehazai).
Thus there are two possibilities. The place of everlasting aloneness apart from the presence of God (the place of eternal death and torment called Hell), or in His Presence (in Heaven, Paradise, or the on the New Earth, depending on your understanding) where there is fullness of joy and pleasures forevermore (John 3:3-8; Acts 2:38; Romans 6:23). In the temporal experience we actually each have the potential for either destination based on how we respond when Christ the Son of the Living God is revealed to our hearts and minds (the Lord having given us free will). In the eternal, the Lord knew exactly how we would respond and the effect of all our choices from before the foundation of the world. Those He foreknew would take that gift of Faith He planted and trust Him through it and cling to Him by it with love and obedience, are the elect. Those who abuse that gift of Faith and through their free will desire to be their own lord (Genesis 3:5), and decide what is good or evil for themselves, are left to their own devices, judged on their works and words, etc.! Now since all have sinned, and the wages of sin are that spiritual death, and they refused to take advantage of the offer of redemption (Romans 6:23), rejecting God and all that is of Him, they will go into the place of outer darkness where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth.
There has been some interesting discussion on this topic among scholars such as Peter Kreeft and C. S. Lewis (you can find pod-cast lectures of Kreeft on-line). The similarities and differences spin off of how one sees the Scriptural implications. If one sees our Heavenly experience as the ethereal Place of the Throne then past, present, and future have no meaning and all are experientially one. Time does not exist in Him who is the Eternal. On the other hand if one sees the New Heavens and New Earth as our ultimate paradise restored where Christ reigns in eternal Righteousness, then there may in fact be some time-like experience minus the entropic effect of deterioration and death. So some scholars see the one and some the other, but I see both simultaneously without conflict, but only Christ knows for sure and those who have gone on before us. All we can do is trust the word and glean from it what the Spirit gives while teaching us and leading us each at our unique stage along the Journey the Lord has planned for each.
Now let us look at some time words. In the New Testament Greek there are two. “Chronos”, is the time of this physical Universe. It is predominately related to the movement of matter through space and is the undergoing of continuous change. This includes the stages of our bodies from birth to death. The second word, “kairos”, refers more to “the moment” or what I would call the “man-will experience of the continuous now”. It is almost timeless in and of itself. It is part of our experiential living which, in this realm, is effected by and somewhat under the constraints of chronos. Perhaps in eternity, kairos, or the continuous now, is no longer under the effects of chronos. In this sense we experience, but we do not age or die.
The two realms, the eternal and the temporal, are co-existent realities, the temporal changeful realm being dependent on the Eternal changeless realm for it’s very existence. The temporal cannot exist without the eternal, but the eternal is, despite the temporal. Occasionally, prophetically, the Lord lets someone in the temporal realm catch a glimpse of the eternal (like Moses in the cleft of the Rock). He parts the veil just for a moment (or more). Any more than they could handle could consume the person.
Some theologians today believe in what is called a “Kingdom Now” theology which says the Kingdom is here, and where it is not it is our duty to capture these nations and peoples and make them subject to Christ the King. Allegedly, to some, all we have to do is in unity claim what is His and go out and take it and it will be so, only Christ Himself refused these Kingdoms. He rejected the devils offer. Surely if it was His plan, He could have smote Him right there and declared Himself King and that would have been that, but He did not.
Then there are some pre-millennialists who believe it has not yet come and it will not happen until Christ returns. This is more in line with a literal interpretation of the Scriptures. However, because of this understanding of the two realms (there could be more), I am a pre-millennialist who believes the Bible teaches that both are true simultaneously.
Since Jesus won the victory over sin on the cross and over death by His resurrection, He is presently now the King. No doubt about it. In the eternal, the work is finished. Eternally the Kingdom is accessible to all who are born of the Spirit. God, the Eternal Himself, is ever present. The veil (Christ upon the cross) has been rent. In Christ, the Lord, the Eternal, is in us and we are in Him.
So in one sense the Kingdom (the eternal realm) is here “within” us, and yet we await its manifest reality in the temporal when Christ returns. Both are simultaneously true. Can you see that? Likewise Paul can truly say in Ephesians 1 that we “are” seated with Him (presently) in heavenly places, yet we await the time we will be with Him in the temporal sense. Jesus says “the Kingdom of God is within you” (from the eternal perspective) but commands us to pray “they Kingdom come” (the temporal perspective). We are likewise redeemed, and yet await our final redemption at the resurrection when He returns to claim us. So you see, unlike our secular contemporaries, we Spirit born children of God actually walk in both realms. The eternal is actually nearer to us than the temporal if we could but grasp it (most cannot…their attention is still focused on their flesh and their immediate circumstances…and who can blame them, the Lord knows it is difficult)! It is the eternal realm which actually is substantive to or above the temporal not the other way around. Eternity is not a mere continuation of the here now. The here and now have merely occurred in the context of it, not the other way around. The eternal is the absolute against which the temporal seems so relative.
This leads us to a small additional point…”ALL” is not relative. We often hear the secular people say “all is relative” which means there are no absolutes. Yet since we know God who is absolute we KNOW this must not be correct but how do we figure this or reason it so we can show others?
To begin with to believe there are no absolutes is believing a universal negative which in effect can never be proven because, one would have to be everywhere simultaneously so no absolute could evade your attention, one would have to know all things since it could exist among the area in which you have no knowledge or experience, and finally you would have to have always existed (be everywhere knowing all) so that the possible absolute was not when you were not or will not be when you are no longer. Thus to hold dogmatically to the absolute which declares there cannot be or there are no absolutes is a logical absurdity because to know that for sure one would have to themselves be absolute, just as one would have to virtually be what we call God to knowingly state there is no God. Now second to believe there are no absolutes and that all is relative is to make declare an absolute to be true (that there are NO absolutes). Thus if this one absolute (that there are none) is actually true, then all cannot be relative. Which likewise means if all is relative the statement itself that there are no absolutes can not be true and at best only relative.
So though the Bible says a day unto the Lord is like unto 1,000 years unto man, I believe even this symbolically represents an uncountable number. So no, a day would not be measured in periods of 24 hours in the heavenly realm, therefore our loved ones who have gone on before us do not experience that long waiting time as we do here. Their kairos is filled and totally occupied with the Lord, time is totally irrelevant. Their experience is not conditioned by chronos. In fact I am convinced they are so enraptured by the presence of the Lord and so fulfilled and completed as persons, that time as we know it, even if it existed, would be an unnoticeable quality of their existence. Activity abounds, love is fulfilled, there is plenty to do, but for them the temporal distance between their departure and ours probably does not even exist. It may well be that just as Christ the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world was slain temporally at some distant point in chronos. The entire human drama therefore may already have played out as far as the eternal realm is concerned, and all who are saved are actually already there (which includes all who temporally have not experienced there arrival). The entirety of human history may take place in the twinkling of His eye…It is finished! Could I be utterly amiss? Entirely off base? Oh yeah! Lord forgive me if I am in error or being presumptuous, and do not let this speculation be used to bring anyone into condemnation before you, I ask this in Jesus name.
I realize these concepts are difficult for the average human mind to conceive (who would bother), so do the best you can, and do not think I dogmatically hold this doctrine. Nobody really knows the essence of man’s experience in eternity accept He who was there before coming here, the Son of the Living God, Christ Jesus, but it is intriguing to ponder. But I will continue to study His word, pray always, and place my trust in Him. The Scripture tells us that, “…when He returns we shall know even as we are known” and then I am sure, all speculation will be made clear.
Posts: 235 | From: Cambridge, MA | Registered: Dec 2009
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