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Author
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Topic: "All things are lawful"
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botham
Advanced Member
Member # 7935
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posted
Amen Eden--super illustration. Thanks
Posts: 103 | From: canada | Registered: Nov 2009
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Eden
unregistered
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posted
hi, botham, I liked your post. Among other things you said, quote:
To me, if a person truly accepts Jesus Christ, then God no longer see the sin. None of it. When we pray for such people we must not trust our senses, but trust God, for we will see them stumbling along their road to recovery. It is my experience that saved people do not turn their back on sin entirely but grow, as in sanctification, toward the likeness of our Lord. We must, if we are honest before God whose glory is above anything we can imagine, accept that our so called minor shortcomings or imperfections in our faith walk, are no different to God than the addict who falls back for a time into their previous lifestyle.
I am personally convinced that God is not going to bother to even look at what kind of sinner I was during my lifetime, even after I was saved, provided that when I die I believe that Jesus is my Substitute.
Watchman Nee, in his book The Normal Christian Life, has a wonderful description of a Chinese fruit tree farmer who has one master tree which he uses to graft into all his other trees.
He lops the top off a young tree and makes a cleft in the trunk and grafts a branch from his master tree into the cleft and binds it up.
Then above the graft, the tree begins to grow excellent fruit with thin skin and luscious meat. But the fruit below the graft also still grows and it is still thick-skinned with little meat.
The farmer said that no one bothers to eat of the fruit below the graft but that he left it on one tree to illustrate how different the fruit above the graft was from the fruit below the graft.
Likewise God too only bothers to look at the fruit above the graft of Jesus in us, and the fruit that still grows below the graft God has left for illustration only, but God is not going to bother eating any of the fruit below the graft.
Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
We Christians will only be judged by the fruit which grows ABOVE the graft of Jesus, and then, not to condemn us but to give us rewards for the work we have done in the Lord's vineyard.
That is, God does want us to help out with the Family Business, which is to preach the gospel. But when we do go to work in the vineyard of the Lord, the Lord pays us very handsomely, with rewards.
Therefore, for those of us who have a graft of Jesus in us, the shed blood of Jesus covers all the fruit that is below the graft, and God is only going to look at the fruit that is above the graft of Jesus, to determine what our rewards shall be:
Isaiah 62:11
Behold, the LORD has proclaimed to the end of the world, Say to the daughter of Zion, Behold, your salvation comes; and look, his reward is with him and his work before him.
Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
love, Eden
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botham
Advanced Member
Member # 7935
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posted
thanks for this discussion. It is very important with respect to addictions. The addict, no matter what the poison--alcohol or other drugs, pornography, homosexual lifestyle and so sn, is consumed in every manner including physically, emotionally, psychologically, and culturally. There is a culture of the street, so to speak, and once conformed to the powerful and compelling norms including the attitudes, behviours and language, it is virtually impossible to recover without Holy intervention.
And as noted by Eden, each person presents themselves to God in a certain state, either lightly soiled in the cares and effects of the fallen world or steeped head to toe in the vilest condition imaginable. So what does "Though your sins be as scarlet, they are white as snow" imply.
To me, if a person truly accepts Jesus Christ, then God no longer see the sin. None of it. When we pray for such people we must not trust our senses, but trust God, for we will see them stumbling along their road to recovery. It is my experience that saved people do not turn their back on sin entirely but grow, as in sanctification, toward the likeness of our Lord. We must, if we are honest before God whose glory is above anything we can imagine, accept that our so called minor shortcomings or imperfections in our faith walk, are no different to God than the addict who falls back for a time into their previous lifestyle. But we must never give up on them. They have been condemned enough by their own behaviour and by inergenerational poverty of parenting, societal rejection and finally the culture of their lifestyle.
If there are prostitutes in your neighbourhood, as there are in mine, please ask God for the Power of the Holy Spirit to move you to gently tell these girls and men that God loves them and they are valued beyond understanding. Maybe then, as you keep praying, one of them will ask you what you mean. May God help and bless you for your search into scripture for the edification of His creation. It helps me immensely to read your carefully chosen scriptures, one and all. God bless, Botham
Posts: 103 | From: canada | Registered: Nov 2009
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Eden
unregistered
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posted
Hello, becauseHElives, you wrote quote:
The irony of this discussion is that many times those who are perceived as being "champions of liberty" really become enslaved to their liberty. We are warned not to use liberty as an "occasion to the flesh". While it's easy to look at the Corinthians and point our fingers in consternation- we would do well to look in the mirror.
Because Jesus pays for 100% of our sins, we get off scott-free and we could, technically at least, "live riotously" now that we have been set at liberty by Jesus and still be saved because Jesus died for 100% of my sins.
However, while even Paul had to address this issue, he mostly did it to explain to the people to not let this liberty be a license to sin.
But when we are saved we received the Holy Spirit and our Comforter and Counsellor:
Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given: and the government shall be upon His shoulder: and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
John 14:26
And the Comforter, which is the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said to you.
The point is, yes, we have this liberty in Christ because He has already saved us (if so be that believe in what He did for us until we die), then the Holy Spirit comes in to help and counsel us.
So all Christians are saved in "one state or another of sin", some were "more refined or vulgar than others", but all were "sinners saved by grace".
That said, it is ludicrous to think that a Christian who is now saved is "going to act wilder and crazier" than they were acting at the time when they were saved.
Therefore, the odds that a saved Christian is now "going to act even worse than before" now that the Christian also has the Holy Spirit to counsel and comfort him, is "extremely unlikely" and would be a "very rare occurrence".
Of course, Christians should read the written Word of God and Christians should listen from moment to moment to the Counsel and Comfort provided by the Holy Spirit, so that the Christian's life may behave more "like an adopted son in the family of God", but it is HIGHLY UNLIKELY that a newly saved Christian will "now be worse now that Jesus paid the penalty for me and I can act even worse than I ever did before".
It is something to warn against as Paul did since he was probably asked that very question, but in practice, a Christian would NOT become worse than BEFORE he was saved. If it happened at all, it would be an extremely rare case and probably not emanating from a true saved Christian. True, a lot of Christians still love the world, but they don't love the world even more than they did before they were saved.
love, Eden
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barrykind
Advanced Member
Member # 35
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posted
Amen my Brother......and ouch
reminds me of a exhortation i needs write;
but now is not the time
love
Barry
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
Posts: 3529 | From: Orange, Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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Luc A C
Community Member
Member # 7921
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posted
What about the saying: "God made me that way"
I realy like what you have to say. The truth may hurt a few.
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Let use not interpret the Bible in a way that it would suit the way we want to live, but let use interpret the Bible in a way God wants us to live.
Posts: 15 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Nov 2009
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becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
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posted
"All things are lawful" (and other Christian slogans)
I Corinthians 6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
The apostle Peter warned against those who would wrest/twist/distort the writings of Paul (II Peter 3:16). I have often made reference to this fact, and I believe that the slogan "all things are lawful" would fall under this category. Many use this passage of scripture as a proof-text of sorts to justify immoral living under the banner of Christian liberty. I use and prefer the Authorized version of the bible (KJV) however it becomes more evident in other translatians that what Paul is dealing with here is a slogan of the Corinthian church. The NIV puts this passage in quotation marks, thus indicating to the reader that Paul is dealing with a common saying/slogan of this church. Even without help from the translators, we can use the context clues of the passage to clearly see that Paul was not advocating a Christian doctrine which makes allowances for immorality. He is clearly teaching within the context of this chapter that the sexually immoral will not inherit the kingdom of God. We must make the important distinction (that the scriptures do as well) between major and peripheral issues. Eating fast food may be lawful for me, but it is definitely not expedient. Drinking 2 cups of coffee each morning may be lawful for me, but definitely not expedient. What becomes obvious in this text though, is that Paul is not trying to expound on the various aspects of Christian liberty (although he does in places like Romans chapter 14) but rather he is showing a fallacy in their line of thinking. Let me further explain: Paul goes on to quote what obviously was another one of their sayings or slogans:
I Corinthians 6:13 Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body
Again, the topic at hand is not dietary laws or meats offered unto idols here (Paul will deal with that in later chapters), but the immediate context is sexual immorality. Perhaps the slogan regarding foods (i.e. "meats for the belly, and the belly for meats") was quoted to show the Corinthians attitude towards sexual purity. Many commentators have made special mention of the fact that immorality was a big part of life in Corinth ,and that there were many rituals involving pagan gods/idols and temple prostitutes. We can discern from this letter to the Corinthians that they were indeed fascinated with knowledge. We know from church history that the Gnostic influence was very strong in the first century. Without going into all the tenets of gnosticism, it can briefly be summarized by a belief that knowledge is superior to obedience. It is possible that gnostic thought had influenced the Corinthians to the place where they had placed moral restraints aside. Paul warned them that "knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth." (8:1) He took great care in preaching to them and his concern that was to know nothing among them but "Jesus Christ and him crucified." Although this truly was a dynamic Charismatic (if I can use that term without conjuring up all types of negative images) fellowship, they had a fundamental flaw. They were more concerned with spiritual knowledge than the love of God and love for each other (refer to chapter 13). Perhaps this slogan ("meats for the belly") is quoted here to show that they (the Corinthians) regarded matters of sexual purity to be in the same category of eating habits. Jesus made it clear that his disciples were not defiled by eating with unwashed hands but rather it is what is within a man's heart that defiles him. It is possible that the Corinthians thought that sexual acts were no different than eating a steak. Paul is very quick to warn them that this is not the case. Let's look at his remarks after their slogans:
I Corinthians 6:14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power. 6:15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid. 6:16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit. 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
So clearly anyone with even limited intelligence can see that Paul was not saying that everything was permissable within the sphere of grace. He pointed out the sin of sexual immorality was not "lawful" for a Christian living under grace. He even went further to suggest that there is a particular stain left behind by this type of sin (notice verse 18). It is not exactly certain as to what the verbiage means in that verse, but suffice it to say that sexual sin carries with it a notably undesirable consequence-that much is clear. With all of the sexually transmitted diseases out there today, it certainly bears witness to the fact that those who live a lifestyle of promiscuity (regardless of what form) are destroying their own bodies- once again proving the scriptures to be absolute truth. Contrary to what many teachers say today- we as Christians do have a responsibility (and an accountability) to glorify God not only in our spirits....but our bodies!
Now we will look at the other usage of the term "all things are lawful" (or as the NIV translates "Everything is permissible") in I Corinthians chapter 10. In chapter six we found that the context was sexual immorality and it's consequences. In chapter 10 we see that Paul was dealing with the issue of idolatry (and food offered to idols). He opens chapter 10 with a powerful reminder of those who wandered in the wilderness for 40 years, never making it to the promised land. He cites the reasons they never made it in: notably the sins of fornication and idolatry (along with murmuring, tempting Christ, lust, et.al). He then appeals to them on the basis of the failures of the wilderness wanderers (verse 14). Paul does not deny the fact that "every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving" (I Timothy 4:4). He also makes it clear that it his not his conscience that is at stake, but that of those who observe him (I Cor 10:29). Having said that however, he does designate instances in which it is not permissible for a Christian to eat meats sacrificed unto idols. Interestingly enough here Paul tells his readers to "flee from idolatry" (10:14) and earlier (as we previously discussed) in chapter 6 he warned them to "flee fornication" (I Cor 6:18). The idea here is rather than seeing how close to temptation we can get, we ought to be running away from this stuff as quickly as possible. When an individual makes the proclamation that meat has been offered unto an idol- the believer is not to partake for the sake of him who offered and those "weak" brethren who may be in attendance. Paul emphatically declares through the Holy Spirit that "Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils" (I Cor 10:21).
The irony of this discussion is that many times those who are perceived as being "champions of liberty" really become enslaved to their liberty. We are warned not to use liberty as an "occasion to the flesh". While it's easy to look at the Corinthians and point our fingers in consternation- we would do well to look in the mirror. We have our own sayings in this modern era which have the appearance of piety, but in reality are a cloak for carnality and lasciviousness. For example, how many times have you heard the slogan "well, I'm just an old sinner saved by grace"? (probably more times than you can remember). Or how about "well, nobody's perfect, we've all fallen short of the glory of God." Or how about those who misquote Paul and say "well Paul was the chief of sinners" or the favorite and oft-used "the bible says don't judge" ? I could go on and on, but I think you get the picture. Going back to the reference of "all things are lawful, but all things are not expedient"- in focusing all of our effort on the first part of that verse- we really miss the spirit of what Paul was trying to tell us. He was not trying to lay out a treatise for demanding and appropriating our Christian liberty but rather showing an attitude that should prevail among Christians which seeks to glorify God in everything that is eaten, said, or done. I think we spend far too much of our time asking the question "is it ok for me to do this?" instead of asking the more important question "will my actions glorify God?"
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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