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Topic: The blind man said ...
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WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
Since the blind man was an active Christian, why do you think the blind man is wrong when he feels that God should have protected him from the wicked shooter?
God clearly has the power to intervene, but God did not intervene in the blind man's case, even though he was a dedicated Christian ...
Does God ever intervene, or not until Jesus comes?
Thank you, Eden
Heb.11
[1] Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
[2] For by it the elders obtained a good report.
[3] Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
[4] By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
[5] By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
[6] But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
[7] By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
[8] By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
[9] By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
[10] For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
[11] Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
[12] Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
[13] These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
[14] For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
[15] And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
[16] But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
[17] By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
[18] Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
[19] Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.
[20] By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.
[21] By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff.
[22] By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.
[23] By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment.
[24] By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
[25] Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
[26] Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.
[27] By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.
[28] Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.
[29] By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.
[30] By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days.
[31] By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.
[32] And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:
[33] Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,
[34] Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.
[35] Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
[36] And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
[37] They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
[38] (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
[39] And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
[40] God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
--------------------
That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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Carol Swenson
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Member # 6929
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When we question God's purposes, we are not going to find the answer through human reasoning. We can find a number of answers, but not THE answer, until God fulfills His purpose.
As I remember, Job thought of himself as a righteous man, but God was not pleased at being questioned by him
Job 38:1-4 (NASB)
1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind and said, 2 "Who is this that darkens counsel By words without knowledge? 3 "Now gird up your loins like a man, And I will ask you, and you instruct Me! 4 "Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding,
So rather than asking why God allows evil in the world, we should be asking if we are going to respond with faith and trust Him? or are we going to allow evil to lead us in the wrong direction?
The Lord Jesus Christ, who was the only truly “innocent” and “righteous” man in all history, nevertheless has suffered more than anyone else who ever lived.
What we should be asking is: “Why does the world allow Satan to have free reign?” “Why do people continue to believe his lies?” “Why do people continue to believe that there is no punishment for disobeying God?”
Let’s be very clear about what REALLY happened in the Garden. Satan lied to Eve, telling her that the punishment for disobedience to God would NOT happen. Eve had a choice to make—she could believe God or she could believe this serpent. The question is—why in the world did she believe this serpent over God?
The answer goes back to James 1:13 and the verses following, where we noted that God does NOT tempt anyone to sin— Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth He any man; But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust , and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin; and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death (James 1:13-15).
Eve had a choice to make, and as these words from James teach us, it was not God Who tempted her to sin, but it was Eve who allowed her own lust to entice her into believing the words of Satan over the Words of God. Eve, in this one tale of the advent of sin, demonstrated the sad Truth of what happens when the “lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the pride of life” [1 John 2:16] causes one to be drawn away and enticed; when one believes a lie because the lie is more attractive in a worldly way than is the Truth.
Did you ever watch 'Star Trek: The Next Generation'? Do you remember the character "Q"? God will not grant eternal life and dominion to disobedient, self-centered people...they would be a lot like "Q"!
Why Does God Allow Satan to Influence Mankind?
God is all powerful. Yet He allows Satan to carry out his deceitful and destructive activities—within certain limits—for a purpose. To understand that purpose, let's begin with an example from the book of Job.
"One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them. The LORD said to Satan, 'Where have you come from?' Satan answered the LORD, 'From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it.' Then the LORD said to Satan, 'Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.'
"'Does Job fear God for nothing?' Satan replied. 'Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.' The LORD said to Satan, 'Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger'" (Job 1:6-12, NIV).
God understood Job's heart better than Satan perceived it. Though God granted Satan permission to afflict Job, the devil failed in his attempt to turn this righteous man against God. Nevertheless, the story of Job's suffering under Satan's affliction reveals much about why God sometimes allows us to suffer.
As with Job, God tests the character of every human being. Paul wrote, "We are not trying to please men but God, who tests our hearts" (1 Thessalonians 2:4, NIV). Moses explained to the ancient Israelites, "Remember how the LORD your God led you all the way in the desert these forty years, to humble you and to test you in order to know what was in your heart, whether or not you would keep his commands. He humbled you, causing you to hunger [a form of suffering] and then feeding you with manna, which neither you nor your fathers had known, to teach you that man does not live on bread alone but on every word that comes from the mouth of the LORD" (Deuteronomy 8:2-3, NIV).
God allows mankind to learn—partly by firsthand experience—that the only way of life that will work is the way of life He reveals in His Word, the Bible. That lesson will not be complete until all of humanity has learned that "every word" of God's revealed instructions is vital to our physical, mental and spiritual well-being (Matthew 4:4; Deuteronomy 5:29). No alternative way of life achieves God's purpose or ultimately leads us to happiness.
But how can God get this point across to people who are born into the world with no knowledge or understanding? He could have preprogrammed us to behave only according to harmless predetermined instincts. But then we would be mere automatons , having no choices, no individuality, no character.
Such existence is not what God intends for us. He has created us to become members of His own family —His sons and daughters (2 Corinthians 6:18)—able to carry great responsibilities within His family.
At the beginning of human existence God stated His purpose for us: "Then God said, 'Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.' So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them" (Genesis 1:26-27).
God created mankind to be like Him, to rule—have dominion—over His creation. To learn to properly exercise such a level of responsibility, man must first learn how to discern right from wrong , good from bad and the wise from the foolish. Learning real wisdom involves learning how to make wise choices. From the beginning God pointed out the right way, but He allowed humans to be exposed to and make foolish choices.
God allowed Satan, the epitome of evil, to enter the Garden of Eden and discuss his view of life with Adam and Eve. They then had to make a choice . They chose to follow Satan rather than God. Satan's tragic delusion of mankind has been the result.
God wants all of humanity to learn that "the way of man is not in himself; it is not in man who walks to direct his own steps" (Jeremiah 10:23).
The world is now under God's Curse (Genesis 3:17) because of man's rebellion against God's Word.
This “bondage of corruption,” with the "whole world groaning and travailing together in pain" (Romans 8:21, 22), is universal, affecting all men and women and children everywhere. God did not create the world this way, and one day will set all things right again. In that day, "God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain" (Revelation 21:4).
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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Eden
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Brother Paul, I think it is a legitimate question for the blind man to ask, "Why did God allow Satan to come to earth"? I mean, a good father on earth would not let an evil pedophile man sleep on his family home's couch when he has 3 little girls in the house?, the blind man asked. So why would God let an evil being like Satan to come to earth, what was the point of that?, he asks. I have no answer for the blind man.
love, Eden
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Brother Paul
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Member # 7959
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Thanks Carol, again some very insightful points.
Eden...Satan along with many other angels had free will...he chose to rebel against God because he refused to minister unto men...in believing his way to be superior to the Lord's he assumed the position of being the lord of his own existence, thus God did not CHOOSE to put satan there by allowing him to be there, nor did he intend for Satan to act this way (we have no Biblical indication to assume that). Satan hated mankind because God loved them and in his jealous pride he rebelled against God and acted as if he was God determining what was good or evil for himself.
Herein lies the meaning of the "fruit of the tree" of knowledge of good and evil...the fruit of this type of thinking (that we know better than God what should be considered good or evil).
Satan "beguiled" Eve by leasing her along a particular type of reasoning (knowledge). He starts by getting her to consider questioning Gods word ("...did God REALLY say?")
Then he takes God's positive instructions and turns it negative suggesting the Lord lied to them (He knows...you shall not surely die)
Then these lead to allow this cunning creature to attack His motives (if you eat..."...your eyes shall be opened and you shall be as gods)
Now kind of doubting the word, and even God's motives when she looks at (considers) the fruit of this type of knowledge (I will be a god unto myself, determining for myself what is good or evil), she is enticed because the fruit of it appeals to how shee sees things, what her flesh desires, and to her vanity (I will be lord of my own life...no one tells me what to do....I do it my way...etc.)
This was the devil's plan from the beginning...man assuming they are the only lord we need to accomplish all we want and solve all our problems...(seer Secular Humanism). So please my brother...this man was never a truly sincere Christian doing everything right or he would not have turned from God in his tragedy but even more so to Him...he is judging God for something Satan and this shooter after Satan';s pattern bearing the "fruit of the tree.." are responsible for and I fear he is getting you to question God's motive as well...
Now assuming you are really saved and Spirit filled just let me say a profession of some sinners prayer or chuirch attendance and learning the proeper buzz words does not make one a child of God, neither does taking a bath, eating loaves of unleaved bread (or wafers) or drinking a bottle of wine (or grape juice for some weaker in faith). Infact doing all that does not do it...what does it is believing God and being born of His Spirit...if the Spirit nhas baptized you into Chriost you cannot apostatize (fall away). If he went out from us he was not of us, as Paul says...
So be careful my brother...do not come to a place where you decide for yourself what is good or evil...tht is God's call only whether or not we can ever make sense of it...His ways are higher than our ways His thoughts higher than our thoughts
May the peace and love of God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ dwell in you richly, shalom
Brother Paul
Posts: 235 | From: Cambridge, MA | Registered: Dec 2009
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Eden
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Copper25 wrote in another thread quote:
Note, that since God knows all things from the beginning to end, he had already knew everyone of us would sin.
I was talking to the blind man today (who is angry that God allowed the man who shot the blind man thru the temple and caused near total blindness in both eyes) to shoot him 3 years ago thru the temple (he is now 48 years old, blind and black in America), eventhough the blind man loved God and was evangelizing for God), and he asked, "Since God knew beforehand that man would sin, why did God create man anyway that way"?
And he also asked, "Why did God allow Satan to come down to the earth, instead of God saying to Satan, oh no you don't?"
Did God think that we would be able to resist sin with our free will and with Satan encouraging us to sin with our free will?
He asked, "Why didn't God just stamp out anyone who sinned with their free will" ("the soul that sins, it shall die")?
One of my answers has been that "the only kind of love that is true love is the love which that can only be created by free will; all else would not be love by "kill the infidels if they will not submit!" (which is not love, but coercion).
So why did God allow man to continue in the earth after man sinned, was it that God said to men, "Okay, if you want to live on the earth without my Godly input, then you will see what the consequences will be, and once you have seen what the consequences will be, you won't want to do them ever again and you will from then on faithfully listen to My Spirit"?
Or ... what was God's point for allowing Satan to come to the earth and to create man while foreknowing that what God was creating would sin this badly?
And that tree in the midst of the garden, was that necessary? And if so, for what?
What was the point of allowing those things to continue eventhough it was known beforehand that it would sin, so that I may have something to answer to the blind man?
love, Eden
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jean123
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Sometimes God lets things happen to test are faith.Jesus can still do miracles.You just have to believe.The Lord's will be done not ours.
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Carol Swenson
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Member # 6929
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quote:
Do we do known whether Lucifer the devil sinned BEFORE man was created? Because if Lucifer the devil WAS created before man was created, then Lucifer must have been piping-mad to furious to see man being created.
This is what the Lord says to Lucifer
Ezekiel 28:12-19
“You had the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13“You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The ruby, the topaz and the diamond;
The beryl, the onyx and the jasper;
The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald;
And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets,
Was in you.
On the day that you were created
They were prepared.
14“You were the anointed cherub who covers,
And I placed you there.
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
15“You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you.
16“By the abundance of your trade
You were internally filled with violence,
And you sinned;
Therefore I have cast you as profane
From the mountain of God.
And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the stones of fire.
17“Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor.
I cast you to the ground;
I put you before kings,
That they may see you.
18“By the multitude of your iniquities,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19“All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever.”’”
I have often wondered why God allowed Satan to be in the Garden of Eden. The only answer I have found that makes sense to me is that because of Lucifer's sin, sin was brought into existence, it became a part of reality. A very rough analogy would be matter and anti-matter. But it was because of Adam's sin that sin became a large part of the world we live in.
quote:
Does God ever intervene, or not until Jesus comes?
God intervened many times in the Old Testament. One outstanding example was when He freed the Hebrews from Egypt.
Jesus escaped from His oppressors several times before His arrest. God freed Peter from prison but later allowed Peter to be crucified. Paul was also rescued from prison, survived a shipwreck and a snake bite and more, but later was beheaded. So God does intervene, but He works according to His plan, not ours.
This website has some interesting insights IMHO. It offers answers to those tough questions. This is just theory though, and I'm not offering it as fact.
Remember that Lucifer went from an exalted position to being doomed to the lake of fire.
Why Do Bad Things Happen to Good People?
This question has been asked in one form or another by people throughout human history and by people around the globe. The world observes people who are truly "good people" and ask the same question in different ways depending upon the circumstances.
Why do "good people" become victims of a disease or a natural disaster?
Why do "good people" get caught in the crossfire of acts of "random" violence?
Why is it that the "good" young men and women of our country have to die in a war against religious fanatics bent on the destruction of freedom and devoted to the subjugation of the world to their ideology?
Why do otherwise innocent children get abused - mentally, emotionally and physically by an older person who is in a position of authority over them?
Why does the young, Christian teenager with a promising future get killed in a car accident?
Why did my marriage fail after I, a "good Christian", tried so hard to make it work?
Why did an "innocent" driver (a "good person") get killed by a drunk driver?
In other words, why do good people have to suffer? While we cannot possibly know all of the details associated with any individual circumstance, we can know and understand some critical truths from Scripture that provide stability, comfort and strength in the midst of our own times of suffering and that help us understand the reason why bad things happen to good people.
Finally, the real question that is being asked, but not stated here - "Is God really fair?"
Another related question - "Does God really love me?" or "How can a God of love let bad things happen to His children?"
Why Do "Bad Things" Happen?
Bad Things Happen Because People are a Part of Human History - the Evidentiary Matter in Satan's Appeal to His Sentencing Pronounced in Eternity Past
The over-arching truth that is the key to understanding any suffering in life is this - Satan is trying to neutralize and destroy human history which is to be used as God's evidence in Satan's appeal to his sentence to the Lake of Fire.
In spite of the fall of man in the Garden of Eden, man has retained the ability to choose. Man has volition. Man is not a robot who is controlled by God or Satan.
However, man is subject to many influences and man makes choices. When man makes choices influenced by 1) the sin nature, 2) the world's system of priorities and values, or 3) false religion, man's decisions align with Satan's strategy of neutralization or destruction of the evidence. When man makes choices influenced by divine truth in the soul, man's decisions align with God's purpose in human history - to vindicate His essence.
For example, some men have made and are today making decisions to murder other people while influenced by one or a combination of three factors - the sin nature of man (i.e. the flesh), the world's system of priorities and values (i.e. the world) and/or false religion (i.e. Satan).
God must allow volition to function in man even if it means that others will be adversely impacted, e.g. on some occasions "good people" are murdered. If God prohibited fallen man from exercising his volition even if it means that "good people" suffer, then God would be tainting the evidence (i.e. the free will decisions of man in human history). If the evidence in a trial is tainted, then the defendant (in this case, Satan) has a right to declare a mistrial.
When Satan enticed mankind to sin in the Garden of Eden, Satan gained dominion over this earth and human history in an attempt to neutralize and destroy the evidence in his trial, i.e. mankind and human history. Of course, Satan is an incredibly powerful creature against whom we would not be able to stand; therefore, God established certain boundaries in this conflict. (For instance, Satan cannot exercise his full power and destroy humans directly en masse).
Man still possessed volition; however, that volition became subject to influences that were not present prior to the Fall. As mankind proliferated and populated the planet, the exercise of man's volition has taken and continues to take paths that adversely affect that individual and other people. In addition, sin introduced death - spiritual and physical death. The physical body of humans became subject to disease and decay.
Suffering is the result of living in a world that is under the dominion of Satan, a world that has been cursed as a result of sin, and a world where the potential for bad decisions made by people who have been blessed with volition is an ever-present reality.
The fact that mankind has volition and the fact that the volition of man is an integral component of the evidence to be used against Satan in his appeal trial means that "good people" will suffer when certain men use their volition to make bad choices. (For more detailed information on this subject, see the links on our website to the question "What is the Real Meaning of Life?" and Special Studies: The Appeal Trial of Satan).
"Is God Really Fair?" and "Does He Really Love His Own When He Allows Suffering?"
The simple answer to both related questions is "yes!" Every one of us have at one time in our lives asked this question either consciously and expressed in those very words, or over the years the question has been suppressed to our subconscious and surfaces in bitterness and unbelief.
Even as believers in the Lord Jesus Christ and the total sufficiency of His death, we still find ourselves at times in our lives doubting the fairness and love of a God that allows us to suffer injustice.
The journey of faith that characterizes the believer who has found the answer to doubts and questions such as these is a journey on the path paved with truth from God's word. It is only an understanding of critical truths such as the essence of God and the "Appeal Trial of Satan as the Biblical Basis for the Philosophy of Human History" that will properly pave one's path so that one can discover and appropriate these truths without stumbling into a life of practical unbelief.
God is "fair" because His love motivates Him to provide for our every need consistent with His justice and righteousness. God is "fair" because He omnisciently saw our need from eternity past and has the omnipotent power to execute a sovereign plan to address all of our needs.
He understands our suffering because there is no temptation that is common to man that He has not endured. His love is so great for us that He sent His Son from heaven to suffer a propitiatory (satisfactory) death on our behalf so that we might share His life eternal. He allows His own to suffer so that they might through suffering be conformed to the image of His Son in the midst of a selfish world.
There is no place we can ever go where we will escape His omnipresent desire to reach us. These truths are backed by the very veracity of His nature and they will never change due to the immutability of His character.
The thing that makes our God and our Lord so truly awesome is the subjective way in which He cares for each of us combined with the very objective purpose He has for human history. There is perfect balance between the two seemingly contradictory aspects of God's relationship to mankind; however, only the believer in Jesus Christ who has appropriated the correct understanding of God's essence and the correct understanding of God's purpose in human history can trod the path paved with truth, faith, confidence, and assurance and avoid the path paved with practical unbelief, cynicism, worry, fear, doubt, anxiety and a lack of assurance. (For more detailed information on this subject, see the links on our website to the question "What is the Real Meaning of Life?" and Special Studies: The Appeal Trial of Satan).
http://www.cotsk.org/faq/BadThingsGoodPeople.html
The Real Meaning of Life?
According to the Bible, God's purpose for creating man (Adam and Eve) and providing man with a choice to exercise his free will or volition (the test of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil - Gen 2:9, 17) was directly related to events that preceded the Genesis account.
At a point in eternity past, the Bible records that a rebellion occurred in the heavenly realms among God's first creatures, i.e. angels. This rebellion, the Angelic Conflict, was led by none other than the most beautiful creature to be created by God, i.e. Lucifer or Satan. As a result of Satan's rebellion against God, God sentenced Satan and his followers to the Lake of Fire.
Why wasn't that sentence immediately executed? What possible purpose could be served by allowing a delay to occur in the execution of that sentence? We know certain facts from Scripture. From those facts, we can draw a logical conclusion - a Biblical induction - regarding the reason for the delay in the execution of Satan's sentence.
It is very likely that Satan appealed his sentence with a statement to the effect of - "How can a God of love cast one of his creatures into the Lake of Fire?" Through a lower creature, man, God is demonstrating the unified function of the attributes of his essence (sovereignty, eternal life, love, justice, righteousness, omniscience, omnipresence, immutability, veracity) in answer to Satan's appeal.
Thus, human history serves as evidence in the appeal trial of Satan. The perfect environment over which man had dominion prior to the Fall in the Garden will one day be restored to the dominion of man (Jesus Christ, the Messiah) Who will rule from a restored Jerusalem as capital of a restored Israel. The lower creature, man, will serve as vindicating evidence of God's fairness in the appeal trial of Satan.
Thus, human history is vitally related to the Angelic Conflict that occurred in eternity past. The following points provide further details of the inductive logic that leads to the conclusion that man (and human history) will serve as evidence for all eternity to all of God's creatures that a God of love is also a God of justice and righteousness, i.e. absolute fairness.
Satan, the most beautiful creature to come from the hand of God, fell in eternity past (Isa 14:12-15; Ezek 28:13-18) by deciding that he would become the object of worship for all of God's creation. God pronounced a sentence upon Satan and all of the angels that fell with him (one-third of the angels) to the lake of fire (Isa 14:15)
There has been a delay in the execution of the sentence for a period of time equal to human history (Re 20:7-10)
The reason for the delay in the execution of the sentence upon Satan and the fallen angels must be related to some type of appeal voiced by Satan such as "how can a God of love cast one of His creatures into the lake of fire?" In other words, Satan questioned the unified nature of the function of God's attributes.
Man was created with dominion over a portion of God's creation, i.e. the earth (Ge 1:28-30)
Man was provided with a test of his volition (Ge 2:16-17)
Man chose against God's command (Ge 3:6-7)
As a result of sin, man lost his eternal life and nature was cursed with his fall (Ge 3)
Man also lost dominion of the earth and Satan gained dominion over the earth and became its ruler (Ge 3 cf. Matt 4:8-9)
God has demonstrated and is demonstrating the unity of His attributes (e.g. love, justice, righteousness, etc.) in human history
He provided the promise of a Savior and fulfilled that promise through His Own Son, i.e. Jesus Christ, the promised seed and Messiah (Ge 3:15; Deut 18:15; 2 Sam 7:12-13; Jn 3:16; Acts 2:34-36)
God was motivated by His love to make this provision (Jn 3:16)
God's righteousness required payment for sin (Ge 3:21 cf. 1 Jn 2:2)
What God's righteousness demanded, God's justice executed (Rom 3:26)
A God of love can sentence creatures who violate His righteous standards to an eternal punishment without violating the integrity of His attributes.
A righteous God is vindicated by a lower creature (man) accepting His grace provisions since Satan (the higher creature) failed.
http://www.cotsk.org/faq/MeaningOfLife.html
Objection:
This teaching seems to imply that man is merely a pawn in some cosmic chess game between God and Satan if human history is simply God’s evidentiary matter in the appeal trial of Satan. This teaching seems to imply that God has no personal interest in the individual.
Response:
There are two dimensions to the realm of absolute Truth in relation to man, i.e. objective and subjective. By the term “objective,” I am referring to the elements of God’s plan that are not necessarily specific to the individual. Conversely, by the term “subjective,” I am referring to those elements of God’s plan that are specific to the individual.
This distinction is only to facilitate instruction and I do not mean to imply that God ever functions in one dimension independent of the other. To further elaborate - there is an objective dimension of absolute Truth that pertains to such matters as God’s essence and God’s purpose in human history. The objective components of Truth explain God’s purpose and motives which involve man, but which are not necessarily dependent upon man.
At the same time and existing in perfect harmony and balance, there is a subjective dimension of absolute Truth that addresses how God relates to man and man relates to God on an individual basis.
For instance, the fact that God sent His Son to die for you and me individually is one example of the subjective dimension of Truth (even though Jesus’ spiritual death also satisfied elements of God’s overall strategic and more objective purposes in human history).
Another example of the subjective dimension of Truth is the principles, promises and exhortations addressed to the individual believer that deal with that believer’s daily walk with the Lord. (At the fall in the Garden of Eden, man’s focus shifted from a Christo-centric focus to a self-centric subjectivity).
For the believer to have a balanced understanding of God’s plan and purpose for his/her life, the believer must possess a synthesized understanding of both the subjective and objective dimensions of Truth.
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Eden
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Since the blind man was an active Christian, why do you think the blind man is wrong when he feels that God should have protected him from the wicked shooter?
God clearly has the power to intervene, but God did not intervene in the blind man's case, even though he was a dedicated Christian ...
Does God ever intervene, or not until Jesus comes?
Thank you, Eden
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Eden
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Hi, Carol Swenson, thank you for your input. Among other good things, you wrote quote:
Why, then, did God allow Satan to tempt Adam and Eve? God allowed Satan to tempt Adam and Eve to force them to make the choice. Adam and Eve chose, of their own free will, to disobey God and eat the forbidden fruit.
Do we do known whether Lucifer the devil sinned BEFORE man was created? Because if Lucifer the devil WAS created before man was created, then Lucifer must have been piping-mad to furious to see man being created.
So you wrote quote:
Why, then, did God allow Satan to tempt Adam and Eve? God allowed Satan to tempt Adam and Eve to force them to make the choice. Adam and Eve chose, of their own free will, to disobey God and eat the forbidden fruit.
In order to force a choice, why did God choose Lucifer the devil whom God knew to be furious at this point to be the individual to force this choice?
In other words, in order to force a choice, did Satan have to be furious at God for creating man to force a choice?
Are you saying that at some point in Adam and Eve's stay in the garden of Eden, God decided to allow Satan to have access to Adam and Eve, eventhough God knew that Lucifer Satan was now disobedient and furious?
Was it this very disobedience of Lucifer Satan that God needed to pose disobedience up against obedience? Was that the "convenience" of having Satan around?
I'm kind of grappling with this Topic myself, so I'm sort of flying by the seat of my pants trying to figure it out and to have a good answer to give to the blind man.
As you said, Adam and Eve had been warned from the start: don't eat from that tree. And they had a choice.
But on the other hand, if God can intervene in reality by setting up circumstances, does that not diminish our free choice somewhat?
At this present time, does God let the earth with its self-willed people and with its Christians basically "run its own course toward destruction" until God re-intervenes?
In other words, does God intervene in the earth now? I ask that because the blind man said he was a bornagain Christian and "God could have protected him" and "God should have protected him because the blind man was an adopted child of God".
We know for sure that God allows Christians to have calamities too, as testified to by this Bible verse:
Matthew 7
24 Therefore whosoever hears these sayings of Mine and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house upon a rock,
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; but it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, but does not do them, shall be likened to a foolish man who built his house upon the sand,
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
In the above verses, the same things happened to both houses: "the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew".
Now, the blind man was a Christian but his house fell after his eyesight was shot out.
I did say to the blind man that He was better off when he has God as His Helper through the Holy Spirit than the blind man is NOT having God as his helper.
So what could be a reason for God to allow this Christian's eyesight to be shot out in 2005? What did God want to accomplish by allowing that to happen since God clearly had the power to intervene, the blind man said.
Why would God NOT intervene? Is it because God basically is allowing the earth to run its course with most of the people "devising their own ways" and "leaning on their own understanding", and that this sinful course of action leads to destruction, so God "only now and then interferes"?
So many questions ... ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) Thanks for your input, Carol Swenson.
love, Eden
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MentorsRiddle
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I'm not saying that he can just become a computer technician overnight... but where there's a will there's a way -- as the saying goes.
The only time in the bible that we see interaction with the devil and God is in the book of Job.
In this book it almost appears as though it is the devils job to tempt people -- like God appointed him as thus.
Everyone has a choice.
The blind man has a choice to make the best out of a bad situation -- or he can just blame God and give up.
Now, which is better in your opinion, Eden -- to just blame God and give up or to try and make the best out of a bad situation?
--------------------
With you I rise,
In you I sleep,
kneeling down I kiss your feet,
Grace abounds upon me now,
I once was lost
but now I'm found.
The gift of God dwells within,
To this love I now give in.
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Carol Swenson
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God did warn them before He allowed them to be tempted. And God knew that the disobedience of Adam and Eve would send Him to the cross.
God put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the Garden of Eden to give Adam and Eve a choice to obey Him or disobey Him. Adam and Eve were free to do anything they wanted, except eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Genesis 2:16-17, “And the LORD God commanded the man, ‘You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.’” If God had not given Adam and Eve the choice, they would have essentially been robots, simply doing what they were programmed to do. God created Adam and Eve to be “free” beings, able to make decisions, able to choose between good and evil. In order for Adam and Eve to truly be free, they had to have a choice.
There was nothing essentially evil about the tree or the fruit of the tree. It is unlikely that eating the fruit truly gave Adam and Eve any further knowledge. It was the act of disobedience that opened Adam and Eve’s eyes to evil. Their sin of disobeying God brought sin and evil into the world and into their lives. Eating the fruit, as an act of disobedience against God, was what gave Adam and Eve knowledge of evil (Genesis 3:6-7).
God did not want Adam and Eve to sin. God knew ahead of time what the results of sin would be. God knew that Adam and Eve would sin and would thereby bring evil, suffering, and death into the world. Why, then, did God allow Satan to tempt Adam and Eve? God allowed Satan to tempt Adam and Eve to force them to make the choice. Adam and Eve chose, of their own free will, to disobey God and eat the forbidden fruit. The results—evil, sin, suffering, sickness, and death—have plagued the world ever since. Adam and Eve's decision results in every person being born with a sin nature, a tendency to sin. Adam and Eve's decision is what ultimately required Jesus Christ to die on the cross and shed His blood on our behalf. Through faith in Christ, we can be free from sin's consequences, and ultimately free from sin itself. May we echo the words of the Apostle Paul in Romans 7:24-25, “What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!”
Jesus was also tempted by Satan, but He chose to obey God.
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Eden
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So in the garden of Eden, there was God and Adam and Eve and there was Lucifer the devil who at this point was a raging maniac interested only to kill, steal and destroy, and God knows this.
The agreement that God had with Adam and Eve was that Adam and Eve should not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Now it is true that when Lucifer the devil appeared in the garden to speak with Eve, Lucifer the devil was polite, and only spoke a few words to her which in-and-of themselves did not physically harm or threaten Eve in any way.
So in the garden, the devil may not have looked "more harmful" than God who Eve had met many times before.
But God knew that Lucifer the devil was furious and out to kill, steal and destroy.
So what could have been the purpose of God allowing the maniac to even speak to Eve, when Adam and Eve had thus far had no interaction with anyone else than God?
What was God trying to achieve by allowing Lucifer the devil to even speak to Eve? To see if Eve would obey God not to eat of the tree of knowledge?
But God would of course know the consequences if Eve was swayed by Lucifer's words, that the earth and the world would become an awful place that even God "repented that He had made man whose thoughts were continually evil".
What was the point? What would have happened if God had NOT allowed Lucifer the devil to talk to anyone in the garden of Eden? What difference would it have made? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
And, why would any Good Father expose His children to such a maniac? A good father on earth would not do that, so why did God as a Good Father allow a maniac to get so close to His children?
love, Eden
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Eden
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Hi, MentorsRiddle, if I could make a story like that up, I'd be rich, LOL. And in addition, I don't read fiction and don't write fiction; fiction is the devil's domain, not God's.
Yes, he's a real person. I take him out for a drink and some onion rings when I can, to cheer him up a bit.
Nor is it easy to migrate from being homeless to being a computer technician.
love, Eden
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MentorsRiddle
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And also, as a side note, I have known completely blind men, who see neither light nor shadow, who work very successful jobs.
Some of them are Computer technicians!
If a blind man can become a computer technician, this man could do something too.
He is homeless by choice.
God didn’t make him homeless.
I just have to ask though Eden – did you make this story up?
You come across to me as someone who likes to understand things and peoples reactions.
I was curious if you made this story up to see how others would react?
That is not meant to be offensive, just curious.
--------------------
With you I rise,
In you I sleep,
kneeling down I kiss your feet,
Grace abounds upon me now,
I once was lost
but now I'm found.
The gift of God dwells within,
To this love I now give in.
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MentorsRiddle
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Wow, Eden.
That is truly a strong story and a difficult question to answer.
I’ll take a shot at it though.
Who made that decision for Adam and Eve to eat from the fruit of knowledge?
They did – out of their own free will.
The enemy, the devil, did not make them do it. They choose that path – thus causing the sin nature to enter our world.
In the story above, the man said that he did everything right.
No one does everything right – everyone sins.
This man forgets: He is deserving of nothing – not even his sight.
If this man loves God so much and lived his life so perfect as to believe God would protect him from all harm – then he clearly didn’t read the bible enough or truly accept in his heart the stories of the bible nor the lessons.
Look at Job.
He lost everything he ever loved – kept his love of the lord and never blamed him – and the lord restored all that he had lost.
But, who is the say that God wanted that man to loose his eyes?
Perhaps he didn’t.
But in order to retain the concept of freewill – if God impeded on the shooters life would that not revoke him of that free will?
Who is worse in this matter -- The shooter or the man who blames God for the deeds and evils of man?
It is not God that is to blame for these evils, it is SIN. WHICH MAN BRINGS INTO THE WORLD.
Not God.
--------------------
With you I rise,
In you I sleep,
kneeling down I kiss your feet,
Grace abounds upon me now,
I once was lost
but now I'm found.
The gift of God dwells within,
To this love I now give in.
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Eden
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What was the purpose of God allowing Satan to operate in the earth to kill, steal and destroy when God could just as easily have Adam and Eve continue in the garden of Eden by simply locking Satan in some heavenly lockup?
What was God's purpose in allowing Satan to operate in the earth, already early on when Adam and Eve were still in the garden of Eden and Satan is still operating in the earth even today?
God wanted to do it because God thought that if God did that then .......HOW WOULD YOU COMPLETE THIS SENTENCE?
love, Eden
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While jogging in my hometown, I recently met a blind man who walks with a blindman's cane. In 2005, he was living temporarily in a skidrow area, on the street. The blind man is 48, and black.
In 2005, apparently a command went out in a local hispanic gang to go shoot some blacks, and while our black man was sitting on the street, someone came alongside and shot him horizontally through the right temple and blew his right eye out. And fragments of the bullet destroyed 95% of his left eye, so that he can only see 5% with that eye and only sees faint light and dark shadows.
But in the years before he was shot, from 2002 until 2005, he was a dedicated Christian, reading the Word faithfully, praying, and actively talking to other people about the Lord. Then he was shot.
From 2005 until today in 2009, the blind man is now homeless, and I recently met him on the street of my hometown.
And he told me a bunch of stuff that I've never heard presented before in this way.
He is now very, very angry with God, and he does not like God anymore. He wants to know, why did God, with His foreknowledge, cause this shooter to die in the womb, or to die from a heartattack at the head of the street where he was shot?
The blind man said, "If God loved His adopted children, then God also has to show that to His adopted children ON EARTH." When God is all-powerful, why would God not stop this act from happening to one of His adopted children who was worshipping Him and doing everything right?
The blind man then said, "Now, if God loves us, why would God put Lucifer the devil among us?
Think of an earthly family for a moment. There is a loving family in a town with little children, and the father brings home a mean-spirited killer and sex offender and reeling drunkard and places them in rooms in his house to live among his family.
So the blind man said, "Would any loving father do that to his family? No! So why would God who says He loves us put a scumbag like Satan among men? Why didn't God just keep Satan out of the earth game altogether, especially not that early in the garden of Eden when Adam and Eve only had little experience?"
So the blind man concludes that God cannot love us because of what God allowed the devil to do on earth ...
And the blind man said, "If I had known what I know now about God, that God does not care, I might have acted more carefully and I probably would not be blind today".
What do you think about all this?
love, Eden
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