|
Author
|
Topic: FAITH AND HEARING
|
Eden
unregistered
|
posted
Hi, RWDavis, you ever heard of the word "flummoxed"? I am "flummoxed" when I tried to understand what was being said here. I quote part of your post: quote:
The same angels who heeded Abraham’s authority over God’s word, they only carry, were willing to save Sodom if ten righteous men could be found (Gen 18:32). But Lot used his authority over God’s word to prevent the angels from searching for ten righteous men in Sodom (Gen 19:2-3). All angels obey the commands of men, though THE WORD OF GOD ANGELS STEDFASTLY CARRY (HEBREWS 2:1) is fulfilled no matter what man calls into action or withholds from action with it (Num 23:19).
It has been my understanding that God sends out the angels as ministering spirits for those who are the heirs of salvation, to help the heirs of salvation in their circumstances as "the God who shows favor to His people".
I have never heard that "the angels obey the commands of men", if I remember correctly that you said something like that?
Please expand that section by quoting the verses in your response? Thank you.
Eden, the merchant of Chilmad
"Ezekiel 27:23
Haran, and Canneh, and Eden, the merchants of Sheba, Asshur, and Chilmad, were your merchants"
IP: Logged | 
|
|
RWDavis
Community Member
Member # 7649
|
posted
Clyde,
Everything we had not been shown, and therefore could not RE-cognize in front of our eyes, seems profound in the first moments we hear and RE-cognize it was always there (Ecclessiatees 4:1-3)
We ain’t seen nothing yet (Ecclesiastee 3:14-15), because everything new that was always there, waiting for us to learn, changes everything we had already accumulated into our PARTIAL KNOWLEDGE (1Cor 13:10; ISAIAH 45:5-7; Genesis 2:16-17).
The question you asked me to clarify seems to be clarified in the way you asked the question. The part you thought you heard me say combined with the thoughts you had already experienced.
In Genesis 1:31 the word ‘good’ is shalom, and means ‘wholesome, complete.”
In Isaiah 45:5-7 a clearer understanding of what the word ‘evil’ means in Genesis 2:17 can be had by believing that God really did form the light and create darkness, “..I make peace (shalom), and create evil (rah). I the Lord do all these things.”
Evil, or ‘rah’, is parts-is-parts-of-the-whole-shalom (Isaiah 5:20-21; 1Cor 13:8-9).
As far as the FALLEN ANGELS are concerned, even speaking of the most subtle power of inquiry God presented us from the beasts of the field (Genesis 3:1), they AREN’T FALLEN BECAUSE OF WHAT THEY DO since they are messengers of God and have no concept of good and evil.
“But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? “
“ARE THEY NOT ALL MINISTERING SPIRITS, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation? “
“THEREFORE WE AUGHT TO GIVE THE MORE EARNEST HEED to the things which we have heard, LEST AT ANY TIME WE SHOULD LET THEM SLIP.”
“FOR if THE WORD SPOKEN BY ANGELS WAS STEDFAST, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompense of reward; “
“How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; “
Hebrews 1:13-14; 2:1-3
The same angels who heeded Abraham’s authority over God’s word, they only carry, were willing to save Sodom if ten righteous men could be found (Gen 18:32). But Lot used his authority over God’s word to prevent the angels from searching for ten righteous men in Sodom (Gen 19:2-3). All angels obey the commands of men, though THE WORD OF GOD ANGELS STEDFASTLY CARRY (HEBREWS 2:1) is fulfilled no matter what man calls into action or withholds from action with it (Num 23:19).
I know God’s word and I remember the first love (Genesis 1:26-27), so I keep my dingbat away from His angels (1Cor 11:3,10; Gen 3:16), even away from the ministers of God’s angels (Gen 3:1-5; 1Tim 2:11-14; 2Tim 3:1-6,7; 1Cor 14:33-35).
It’s not my responsibility nor authority to tell you what that means (1John 2:24,27), but I do need to remind you that Satan and his ministers are just my dogs on a leash (Rom 8:18; 2Cor 11:11-15).
Posts: 11 | From: Lewisport, ky | Registered: Mar 2009
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Clyde Fultz III
unregistered
|
posted
Deleted by the owner of the post
IP: Logged |
|
|
RWDavis
Community Member
Member # 7649
|
posted
As Romans 10:17 faithfully attests, our Lord is a God of knowledge and by Him actions are weighed (1Sam 2:3).
Faith is not a what-if-hope, but a knowledge that can be trusted.
A man is who he has been taught to be (Jer 10:23), whether by the faith that comes by hearing God's word (Jer 10:24; Rom 10:17) or by opinions men assimulate from others into themselves (Jer 10:25; Rom 6:16).
The Lord tells me in Deut 8:5-6 that I am the son of God if I am chastened by His word and thus become them, "..walking in His ways...."
Jesus validates that it is the word of God which is the only begotten Son of God, which any man can be taught to be (John 1:12-13), and testified that He can say nor do anything except what the Father had already established (John 5:30). Furthermore, Jesus states that f you do not already know the word of God before you hear someone speak it you cannot possibly understand the speaker.
"And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me...."
"And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not."
John 5:30,37-38,39
The Lord has promised that each one of us will learn God's word directly from God's word (Jer 31:33-34), and this was no secret kept from he disciples and apostles (1John 2:24,27; 2Pet 1:20-21). And we were warned that false preachers (Jer 23:1-3,15,28-30), seeking to glorify their own names in a false pecking order (Ps 49:11-13; Ps 62:9; Matt 6:1-2), will and have continued to make merchandise of men who substitute God's REVEALED word (Deut 29:29; 30:14) with assorted opinions of God's secrets (Deut 29:29; 30:12; Rom 1:17,18-19; REVELATION 19:11-12,12,12-13,14-21).
The words of God learned from men's interpretations are the Son of man, a bogus fraud we are to recognize (Isaiah 51:12,13-15,16; Ps 146:3-4,5-8,9; Matt 12:32).
The Son of God are the word of God we learn directly from God's word (Jer 10:23-24; 2Tim 3:16-17).
But men who have been taught to hear the lie from priests seeking glory (Jer 23:1-3,15,28-30) by repeating each others CHAFF from generation to generation (Jer 23:28-30; Ps 1:1-4; Hosea 4:6-9) have never heard the truth from God.
"How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?" Romans 10:14-16
Since men who have not heard God's word because they have instead heard priests' vanities (Malachi 2:1-3,10) must first hear those lies before they can search out truth in retrospect (Rom 3:3-4,7)...
"..after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe." 1Corinthians 1:21; 2Corinthians 11:7; 12:7-9; 13:5-7).
God created everything (John 1:3). God created everything good (Gen 1:31). All things work together for good to those who love God (Rom 8:28).
Therefore, since the Adversary's authority is only over those things which do not exist, and is preached by his ministers who learn non-existant opinions from men, then even the Adversary himself when searched out (Matt 23:1-3; Jer 23:1-3,15,28-30) can only reveal God's light (2Cor 11:13-14,15; Rom 8:28-30).
"What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?" Rom 8:31
There ain't no haint gonna run me off.
Posts: 11 | From: Lewisport, ky | Registered: Mar 2009
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Aaron
unregistered
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
Stop your sillyness.
For David said/wrote ....
Psalms 40
[7] Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,
David did indeed write that verse.
But
Paul reveals that they were said by Our Lord when He came into the earth:
Hebrews 10:5 "Therefore, when He (Jesus Christ) came into the world, He (Jesus Christ) said..."
Rest easy; I require no apology but should change your mind about these things or at least do not teach them as you have in the past.
Aaron
IP: Logged |
|
|
yahsway
Advanced Member
Member # 3738
|
posted
In Yeshuas day, people were not walking around with Bibles. They had to go to their local synagouge to "Hear" the word of the Lord read aloud in the assembly.
This is evident in Acts 15:21 when the Gentiles were coming to faith in Yeshua, James refers to the Word of God being "read in the synagogues every Sabbath.
The Jerusalem council set down 4 practices for the Gentiles turning to God and then tells them they they can go Hear the rest of the Word that was being read in a synagogue in every city at that time.
As the entire Bible as we know it today was not even in print at that time, they used the Torah/Tenach that each synagogue had at that time.
Posts: 1238 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Found in Him
Advanced Member
Member # 7596
|
posted
"Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God" (Rom. 10:17).
Jesus said; My words are Spirit and they are life.
Truly the word of God is no ordinary book. These precious verses that we read each day are God breathed and given to us by God Himself. They have the ability to quicken the deaf & blind, to change the vilest of sinner into a treasure... but they must be read and embraced keeping the Author in center focus to be heart changing to the individual.
"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put My Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My Statutes, and ye shall keep My Judgments, and do them... Without Me ye can do nothing"
(Ezekiel 36:26-27; John 15:5)
--------------------
~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
Posts: 1503 | Registered: Jan 2009
| IP: Logged |
|
|
WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
|
posted
Stop your sillyness.
For David said/wrote ....
Psalms 40
[7] Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,
--------------------
That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Aaron
unregistered
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
"First, he changed the verse "Faith comes by hearing" to "faith comes by reading". This is a common error of those who say that the Bible is the authority on earth when the Bible clearly states that the Holy Spirit is the One who has authority."
Nice try......
John.16
[13] Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
No, it clearly was a bad try on Stam's part. The verse you quoted is an excellent example of the Spirit having authority on earth. ![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif)
But we should really continue the passage:
quote:
Jhn 16:14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare (announce like as in speaking) it to you.
Jhn 16:15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.
Here, it is explicit: the Holy Spirit delivers only what Jesus says AND Jesus has only "all things that the Father has". That is to say: the Spirit does not act on His own authority but only on the authority of the One who sent Him.
This pattern is upheld by the apostles.
And this verse:
quote:
Heb. 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
This is probably not the Bible. There are many books in Heaven and on earth. This says "In the volume of the book" or "in part of the book". The writer then goes on to say "I delight to do Your will, O my God, And Your law is within my heart." He is probably speaking about the book of the law.
Paul references the law in Hebrews 10. When Jesus declared "Lo, I come in the volume of the book it is written of me, to do thy will, O God" He was saying: "The book of the law was to show you that I would come." Paul notes that Jesus "takes away the first that He may establish the second." Certainly, he is NOT saying that Jesus takes away the Bible. No, Jesus takes away the Law, "the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross."
Hmm, I've read that somewhere. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
The "volume of the book" referenced in Hebrews 10 is the book of the law.
Aaron
IP: Logged |
|
|
WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
|
posted
Semantics is the study of meaning in communication. The word derives from Greek σημαντικός (semantikos), "significant", from σημαίνω (semaino), "to signify, to indicate" and that from σήμα (sema), "sign, mark, token". In linguistics it is the study of interpretation of signs as used by agents or communities within particular circumstances and contexts. It has related meanings in several other fields.
Semanticists differ on what constitutes meaning in an expression. For example, in the sentence, "John loves a bagel", the word bagel may refer to the object itself, which is its literal meaning or denotation, but it may also refer to many other figurative associations, such as how it meets John's hunger, etc., which may be its connotation. Traditionally, the formal semantic view restricts semantics to its literal meaning, and relegates all figurative associations to pragmatics, but this distinction is difficult to defend. The degree to which a theorist subscribes to the literal-figurative distinction decreases as one moves from the formal semantic, semiotic, pragmatic, to the cognitive semantic traditions.
The word semantic in its modern sense is considered to have first appeared in French as sémantique in Michel Bréal's 1897 book, ''Essai de sémantique'. In International Scientific Vocabulary semantics is also called semasiology. The discipline of Semantics is distinct from Alfred Korzybski's General Semantics, which is a system for looking at non-immediate, or abstract meanings.
--------------------
That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
|
posted
"First, he changed the verse "Faith comes by hearing" to "faith comes by reading". This is a common error of those who say that the Bible is the authority on earth when the Bible clearly states that the Holy Spirit is the One who has authority."
Nice try......
John.16
[13] Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
[14] He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Heb.10
[7] Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
--------------------
That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Aaron
unregistered
|
posted
There are a couple things wrong with Cornelius' explanation.
First, he changed the verse "Faith comes by hearing" to "faith comes by reading". This is a common error of those who say that the Bible is the authority on earth when the Bible clearly states that the Holy Spirit is the One who has authority. Because of his bias against the Spirit he missed these verses just before the one he quoted:
quote:
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, Who bring glad tidings of good things!"
When the original verse is added:
quote:
Rom 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
it is obvious that Paul is talking about literally "hearing" the word of God, not reading it.
In this verse: And how shall they preach unless they are sent?
The word "sent" is apostellō. This refers to those who are sent by God. Of the five doma gifts of God's government there is only one that is necessarily sent out by God: the apostle. This verse refers to the apostle...those who are sent.
Furthermore, in the original verse: So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
The word for "word" is "rhema" not "logos". Rhema is the spoken word whereas logos is the foundational/established word, usually recorded.
Jesus used "rhema" in this verse:
quote:
Mat 4:4 But He answered and said, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.'"
This "word" is what God speaks on a daily basis. The apostles, when they are sent, declare the word of the Lord for that season.
So when Paul said "Faith comes by hearing" he meant "faith comes by hearing" with the full expectation that the apostles would continue to be sent to preach the word of the Lord.
Aaron
IP: Logged |
|
|
WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
|
posted
by Cornelius R. Stam
"Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God" (Rom. 10:17).
This important passage of Scripture is, sad to say, little understood. Many people think of faith in the abstract, as though it had some mysterious power in itself. They speak of faith, but what do they mean? Faith in what? or in whom? Surely it is not possible just to have faith, without something or someone to have faith in.
Faith is not wishing hard, or feeling confident. It is not optimism or presumption or imagination. Faith must have a basis, a foundation. Thus the Christian's faith is founded on "the Word of God" -- on what God has said in the Bible.
The above passage explains: "Faith cometh by hearing." Isn't that simple? Isn't it true? Some have said that "seeing is believing," but a moment's reflection will reveal that, like the phrase: "I'm from Missouri," this saying is an expression of unbelief. When we have seen a thing we need no longer believe it; it has been demonstrated to us. But when we hear [or read] a matter reported, we may either believe or doubt it. "Faith cometh by hearing." And likewise hearing comes through what has been said. We believe, or doubt, what we hear and we hear what has been said. The Christian's faith, then, comes by hearing (God) and hearing by the Word of God. All true Christian faith is founded on the Word of God.
Actually the word "hearing," in Rom. 10:17, however, has the idea of heeding -- paying attention, listening eagerly. This is why Gal. 3:5 speaks of "the hearing of faith." And thus Eph. 1:13, referring to Christ, says: "In whom ye also trusted, having heard the Word of truth, the gospel of your salvation." Thus, too, we read in John 5:24 the words of the Lord Jesus:
"HE THAT HEARETH MY WORD, AND BELIEVETH ON HIM THAT SENT ME, HATH EVERLASTING LIFE, AND SHALL NOT COME INTO JUDGMENT, BUT IS PASSED FROM DEATH UNTO LIFE."
--------------------
That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view of this topic
