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Author
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Topic: STANDING WHATEVER THE COST
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Michael Harrison
Advanced Member
Member # 6801
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posted
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Scythe:
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Thus, by looking upon the Lord, we are changed into His image- from letter glory to Spirit glory.
So, from what does the spirit set men free? Certainly not from the commandments of the Truth concerning Whom He bears testimony.
I like that!
And this…..
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In other words, these false teachers, in telling the people that the commandments of the Lord Jesus Christ are impertinent to modern men (or "gentile" men, or what ever other excuse these birds/demons use to steal the seed/word) are keeping people from freedom.
I have long had the conception that false teachers are not ‘unsaved’ people, necessarily. I have learned that Paul is speaking to Christians, and even ‘about’ Christians more than about unsaved deceivers. Unfortunately, Christians, which are what they are, we suppose, upon being saved, get saved and wander down paths that seem ‘right in themselves’, but which are not right in a healthy way according to the will of God. And then they 'teach' others. Therefore we expressly have the likes of Paul to direct us, and that by the, so called, “weakness of the ‘letter’.”
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Now, speaking of the letter, it had great glory. The glory of the letter was such that Israel asked Moses to cover his face with a veil whenever he got a word from God.
This medium, bulletin boards, is a perfect example of the weakness of the "letter". It is impossible to communicate the facial expressions of tenderness and desire for reconciliation with letters. You can't enjoy the subtle cues of body language and inflections of voice and accents that help interpret that which intended.
Thus, the Old Covenant was entirely susceptible to a stony interpretation according to men who loved revenge rather than mercy.
After all, “Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing - by the Word of God.” And does God speak? Indeed HE does, however, I think that we all understand God to usually scratch out His instructions on a piece of paper, if not on stone. It is the most common form of communication that HE uses.
To that end (I like this also):
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One obeys according to his faith. One obeys according to his belief.
Remember, as I reminded you before, that the words of Jesus are Spirit.
Here we again have faith coming by hearing, and hearing by the word. Alas, “reading” is the same as hearing. At least, if one ‘understands’ what he reads, then one ‘hears’. And therein lies the common problem. For what one ‘thinks’ he or she understands is often ‘not’ complete, or spiritually correct, but rather has an element of the flesh mixed in. The Apostles liken this to being in the wilderness. But woe and behold, that poor Paul had to communicate by the weakness of letter, for he was oft indisposed. Couldn’t God after all have engineered a better way?
On this next note…..
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Do you want men to sit on their ____ while they berate and threaten you for insufficient performance? Of course not (unless you're a Republican). If you free others from that, you are free from that.
Do you want others to make clothes for you? Make clothes for others.
Do you want people to make messes for you? Make messes for others.
Do you want people to make your burden heavier? Make the burdens of others heavier.
Do you want others to help you carry your burdens. Help carry the burdens of others.
I once stayed at a Christian commune. As one can imagine (after he gets over the utopian notion which the idea of a commune conveys) people can rub each other. I remember distinctly how that I had a different opinion over something so simple, which typifies the kind of minor irritant which one endures in the constant company and companionship of others when living together. And for this kind of thing, there was a list of ‘rules’, there in the commune. In this case, the particular rule was, “If you turn it on, then turn it off,” referring to the light switch. This was a literal list which existed to manage the behavior of all participants. However I thought, how un-Christlike, i.e. unscriptural. For it seemed to me that if one turned it on, and another believer happened by, in service to the brethren, he who did not turn it on, would be obliged to turn it off - ‘and’ not make an issue of it! In that way others would be ‘edified’. (But who would consider it? It is a mirror thang!)
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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scythewieldor
unregistered
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posted
Dear bluefrog,
Remember the story of Lazarus and the rich man?
Abraham indicates that the rich man was in torment because, while he was alive, he had his good things.
In other words, the rich guy used up his reward on earth.
On the other hand, Lazarus had his evil things on earth, and, after life on earth, was comforted in Abraham's bosom.
The rich guy could have bought a share in some of the evil things that Lazarus had. He could have bought a BIG share.
He didn't.
Let me show you an example of having treasure in heaven.
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Ac 3:2 And a certain man lame from his mother’s womb was carried, whom they laid daily at the gate of the temple which is called Beautiful, to ask alms of them that entered into the temple;
3 Who seeing Peter and John about to go into the temple asked an alms.
4 And Peter, fastening his eyes upon him with John, said, Look on us.
5 And he gave heed unto them, expecting to receive something of them.
6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.
Most people think of their treasure as stuff (stocks, bonds, savings, houses, lands) that secures them a place on earth. However, men can break in and steal those things (as we have seen).
Even houses and lands can be taken by imminent domain and adverse possession.
Peter had quit holding earthly stuff. If he had some gold or silver in his pocket, he could have given that to the lame man. However, the guy would be there, in need, every time Peter went back to the Temple.
When Peter was empty except for the treasure he had in heaven, he wrote a check on that account and the lame guy was healed.
Peter gained something for the lame guy that could not be bought with silver and gold. Because of that the man was able to begin to help carry the load with other healthy men. Thus, they entered into a little bit more of the rest that God had in mind for them.
I am not rich. I have had evil things (though not as evil as the things Lazarus had). I have bought shares in the evil things of others, laying up treasure in heaven, I hope. Others have, indeed, bought shares in my evil things, laying up for themselves treasures in heaven.
The rich will die having had their reward.
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Ja 5:1 ¶ Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you.
2 Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten.
3 Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.
4 Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth.
5 Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter.
6 Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you.
The rich guys use the government to send soldiers to protect or increase their earthly riches, or to avenge the loss of those earthly riches. Thus, men die for stuff- not freedom.
The rich guys will pay for their vanity.
However, believers will do works meet for repentance.
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Ac 26:19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:
20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
21 For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill me.
22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
One of the reasons the Jews wanted to kill Paul was that he was preaching in all places that men should do works meet for repentance. These were things that Jesus had taught the Pharisees, rich men, and the apostles themselves.
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Mt 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
Lu 11:39 And the Lord said unto him, Now do ye Pharisees make clean the outside of the cup and the platter; but your inward part is full of ravening and wickedness.
40 Ye fools, did not he that made that which is without make that which is within also?
41 But rather give alms of such things as ye have; and, behold, all things are clean unto you.
Mt 19:16 ¶ And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
23 ¶ Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
Mr 10:17 ¶ And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.
21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.
23 And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
24 And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!
25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
26 And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?
27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.
28 Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee.
29 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel’s,
30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
Lu 12 :32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom.
33 Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.
34 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
35 Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning;
36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.
37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.
39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.
40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.
Lu 18:18 ¶ And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.
21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.
22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
23 And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich.
24 And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
25 For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle’s eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
26 And they that heard it said, Who then can be saved?
27 And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.
28 Then Peter said, Lo, we have left all, and followed thee.
29 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or parents, or brethren, or wife, or children, for the kingdom of God’s sake,
30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.
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scythewieldor
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posted
Dear bluefrog.
I love this scripture.
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2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
Here's some of the context of it. (I am compelled to reconstitute the buzz-words which have been derived from scripture. Those buzz-words are like white sugar from beets.)
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2 Co 3:2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
4 And such trust have we through Christ to God–ward:
5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6 ¶ Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
12 ¶ Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
Corinth was an epistle of Christ written with the Spirit of the Living God on fleshy hearts. They were served by men that God had made able ministers/deacons of the New Covenant.
These ministers/deacons were not of the letter. They were of the Spirit. When you look at the letter, you can not find the express image of the Father. God is Spirit, and the Spirit maketh alive.
Now, speaking of the letter, it had great glory. The glory of the letter was such that Israel asked Moses to cover his face with a veil whenever he got a word from God.
This medium, bulletin boards, is a perfect example of the weakness of the "letter". It is impossible to communicate the facial expressions of tenderness and desire for reconciliation with letters. You can't enjoy the subtle cues of body language and inflections of voice and accents that help interpret that which intended.
Thus, the Old Covenant was entirely susceptible to a stony interpretation according to men who loved revenge rather than mercy.
Then, Jesus came and showed us the Father. He showed Grace AND Truth.
The New Covenant, then, being a much better demonstration of the Will of God than the Old, has so much more glory than the Old that the Old fades in comparison.
Have you ever seen the moon still in the sky after sunrise? I have. However, the brightness of the moon does not compare at all with the brightness of the sunrise. And, soon, it disappears altogether.
So it is with the glory of the Old Covenant when the New Covenant has been ministered.
However, there remains people who are revenge-oriented. They would rather hear the Word of God with that veil on their minds. They can not understand the glory of rightly interpreted Word.
They can't stand Grace.
Although we no longer know the Lord after the flesh, we, still, have the opportunity to look at the reflection of the Lord's face in scripture. The Spirit makes us able to see all those cues in God's Word that the veil covered up.
We have liberty. But the Spirit does not remove one single word from the communication from heaven.
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Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Joh 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Thus, by looking upon the Lord, we are changed into His image- from letter glory to Spirit glory.
So, from what does the spirit set men free? Certainly not from the commandments of the Truth concerning Whom He bears testimony.
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Jas 1:23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
Jas 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
14 ¶ What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
So, what is the Spirit of the things God communicates to us?
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Mt 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
Do you want men to sit on their ____ while they berate and threaten you for insufficient performance? Of course not (unless you're a Republican). If you free others from that, you are free from that.
Do you want others to make clothes for you? Make clothes for others.
Do you want people to make messes for you? Make messes for others.
Do you want people to make your burden heavier? Make the burdens of others heavier.
Do you want others to help you carry your burdens. Help carry the burdens of others. (Most people are already carrying too much to help others. That is why we should sell some stuff and give some stuff away.)
The perfect law of liberty is a holy commandment. Keep it and be changed from glory to glory.
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scythewieldor
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posted
Dear Michael Harrison,
Remember, brother, that "faith" and "believe" are English renderings of a single Greek word turned into a noun and a verb, respectively.
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4100 pisteuw pisteuo pist-yoo’-o
from 4102; TDNT-6:174,849; v
AV-believe 239, commit unto 4, commit to (one’s) trust 1, be committed unto 1, be put in trust with 1, be commit to one’s trust 1, believer 1; 248
1) to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in
1a) of the thing believed
1a1) to credit, have confidence
1b) in a moral or religious reference
1b1) used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul
1b2) to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith
1bc) mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith
2) to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity
2a) to be intrusted with a thing
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4102 pistiv pistis pis’-tis
from 3982; TDNT-6:174,849; n f
AV-faith 239, assurance 1, believe + 1537 1, belief 1, them that believe 1, fidelity 1; 244
1) conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man’s relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it
1a) relating to God
1a1) the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ
1b) relating to Christ
1b1) a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God
1c) the religious beliefs of Christians
1d) belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same
2) fidelity, faithfulness
2a) the character of one who can be relied on
One obeys according to his faith. One obeys according to his belief.
Remember, as I reminded you before, that the words of Jesus are Spirit.
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Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
That means that, both, the commands of Jesus, and, the testimonies of the Lord Jesus are Spirit.
It seems to me that the problem with the church Universal is that men, in their desire to peel off a few saints for their own personal benefits, have directed the attention of the sheep to theology and eschatology (which are so easy to tweak with a re(mis)definition here and a spiritualizing there and a sprinkling of hermeneutics that make the Word of God "obsolete"), and away from the VERY clear commandments of the New Covenant.
By doing so, they completely undermine their own pretense to authority as being "spiritually derived" while starving the very people that are following them.
In other words, these false teachers, in telling the people that the commandments of the Lord Jesus Christ are impertinent to modern men (or "gentile" men, or what ever other excuse these birds/demons use to steal the seed/word) are keeping people from freedom.
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2 Pe 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
10 ¶ But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption ;
13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb *** speaking with man’s voice forbad the madness of the prophet.
17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
The passage, above, describes the rip-off perfectly. Jesus knows how to deliver the godly out of temtations- so He told us.
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Mt 6:19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
1 Tim 6:8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.
9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.
12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
However, there are people who walk after the flesh and despise government. As government despisers, they do not want the words of the Lord of lords and the King of kings limiting their appetites.
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Ro 16:17 ¶ Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
1 Tim 6:2 And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort.
3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
6 ¶ But godliness with contentment is great gain.
Ti 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
9 ¶ But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.
These heretical men speak evil of things they do not understand- like commandments of the Lord and decrees from the apostles and elders at Jerusalem.
Because they have not enough faith to obey the Word of God, the eyes of their understanding continue to be darkened and they continue exercising their hearts in covetous practices. Instead, they should have, been obedient:
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Mt 20:25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
Mr 10:42 But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them.
43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister:
44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.
45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
Heb 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
Those guys want the easy life offered by men who are against what God is doing with Israel in the earth. They offer liberty from the Lord's commandments, even as Balaam son of Beor taught Balak to make Israel to stumble by turning their sons from the commandment of the Lord.
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Eden
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The witness booklet is called "Terrified!"
Very funny LOL, I can relate to that. I once sang in front of 80 Christians. But to sing before a secular bunch mixed with passing Christians is another story.
Acts 18
9 Then spoke the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, saying, Do not be afraid, but speak and hold not your peace.
10 For I am with you, and no man shall set on you to hurt you: for I have many people in this city.
11 And he {Paul} continued there a year and six months, teaching the Word of God among them.
"Terrified!"
love, Eden
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bluefrog
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FELLOW THUMPERS....
If any of you are interested in witnessing but don't feel comfortable with it, there is help out there.
A gentleman, Todd Friel, has put together a very small book and a CD called "Terrified!"
You can get it at: www.wayofthemasterradio.com
They have some good tracts also and the CD and tracts are not expensive at all. Good Stuff.
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Eden
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Theo Philite wrote quote:
On the same subject, I have always found it one thing to make a sacrifice yourself, and quite another to ask another to make the same sacrifice. Or to even agree on which sacrifices have to be made.
I have similarly found that it is a lot easier to talk about Christianity, especially to mutual Christians, from the convenience and safety of our homes, than if we actually went out there and did something more daring among the people for Christ.
I remember one day before I was a Christian, there was an open-air busstop in certain city with a corpulent man sitting on the bench and a frailer woman, and about 3 yards to the right of thet busstop was a young man reading from the Bible in an audible voice but not in a rudely loud voice.
I walked by, and I stopped to listen to what this young man was reading, since I was "kind of interested by then in these things".
But then suddenly the corpulent man got up and walked toward the reader in a threatening way, and the reader moved another yard or two to the right and continued to read, and the corpulent man returned to his busstop for now.
That was the real thing. Talking about Christianity in fellowship and building one another up in the faith and teaching "would-be believers in the pew of the bbs" why it is good to be a Christian, all of these are needed, yes, but they are a "cushy assignment" compared to "the real thing".
Isaiah 6:8
Also I heard the voice of the Lord saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here I am; send me.
Watchman Nee has a good phrase in his book, The Normal Christian Life, where he says that some Christians are no good for the world anymore but neither are they any good yet for the kingdom of God, too scared to go up; and so they are inbetween, a life of crisis in the wilderness, "Who will go up for us!?!"
love, Eden
"thank God for another day"
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Theo Philite
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I once asked an athiest friend what he thought was going to happen when he died. He said "nothing, I will just go down into the ground".
I said "you mean eternal dreamless sleep?"
He said "yeah, I guess"
I said "well that sounds like my kind of heaven."
and he laughed.
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"Even on a cloudy day I will be your friend"
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Michael Harrison
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![[type]](graemlins/type.gif) When you come to Jesus, you will be tested whether you really want to follow. ![[happyhappy]](graemlins/happyhappy.gif) Fail not, for there is great reward for those who persevere.
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bluefrog
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THEO...You couldn't have said it any gooder.
I'm gonna start carrying a 2 x 4 around with me.
This way I can prove I am right ! That is a joke.
I like to discuss issues and if I am messed up I sure want to know.
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Theo Philite
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I have always found, whether my beliefs leaned towards God or away from him, that one thing christians have failed to do is stand together.
On the same subject, I have always found it one thing to make a sacrifice yourself, and quite another to ask another to make the same sacrifice. Or to even agree on which sacrifices have to be made.
But in all the disagreement, the fact of Jesus's death and resurrection, his life and ministry, his gift and redemption of mankind, his very being and actions, will get lost amid the dissent over the interpretations of his teachings.
Lets do some more of this ![[hug]](graemlins/hug.gif) and some less of this when it comes to discussing such personal topics. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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"Even on a cloudy day I will be your friend"
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bluefrog
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MR S...Please hang in there with me, I am having problems with your comments.
You said: Suffice it to say that, unlike the rich, I may not have had my reward, yet.
Rivit: If you have received it I think you would know, so what is holding it up ?
You said: The bible says work with your hands.
Rivit: I don't believe that it means to confine yourself to doing only hand work.
You said: I have remained out of debt because I am following the Spirit into the truth that sets people free.
Rivit: If you have the Spirit you are free. It isn't a matter of truth that sets, but sat you free.
You said: The children keep the holy influence of a godly mother....for the sake of a second income.
Rivit: That is a blessed thing, but one in which I feel not mandatory. Home school is also good and demanding. An income of $8,000. needs some work this day and age. $666.00 a month has got to be underwhelming.
Im sorry, but there are so many comments that you have made that I just can't see past.
It also sounds like there is a lot of effort to Earn this and that. There is nothing that God has to offer us that we can earn or work for unless it might be the white linen in heaven but that is another discussion.
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Michael Harrison
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Obedience is to 'believing' who HE is, what HE says, and what HE does. "Without faith it is impossible to please God." (Heb 11:6)
Obedience is to the 'moving' of the Spirit! "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God." (Rom 8:14)
Believing what HE does, in part means that you will have a changed life. He does it. It also means what HE will do. Imagine if Moses went to Pharoah and said what God said for him to say, but didn't believe that God would do it. One must believe HE does what HE says.
Obedience to the moving of the Spirit naturally follows (or rather supernaturally). If one believes what HE says HE will do, or does, the natural outcome is that he behaves like Abraham, because He knows what God wants to do. He is led by the Spirit of God to where God performs what one believes, because he has 'heard'.
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scythewieldor
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Dear Eden,
Able offered a better sacrifice.
Noah prepared an ark.
Abraham left the place where he was born for a place he had never seen, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob while he looked for a city whose builder and maker was God.
For us:
quote:
Lu 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:
48 He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
49 But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.
Ja 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
1Jo 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
1Jo 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23 ¶ And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
1Jo 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
1Co 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
There is so much New Testament that recognizes the "doing" of faith that I can't cut and paste it all. If all American Christians are as "commandment illiterate" as it appears, then it is no wonder the American house is going down with the wind and flood.
Why waste your breath crying, "Lord, help us", while you, either, don't care to find out how He has already helped, giving you commandments from heaven, or, you just don't think you have to obey the One who speaks from heaven.
quote:
Heb 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
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Eden
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scythewieldor wrote quote:
Obedience gives substance to hope; not faith. Faith is hope substantiated by obedience.
The people who were recognized as heroes of the faith gave substance to their hope by being obedient.
Obedient to what? To the commandment to go and preach the gospel to all nations, are those the heroes of the faith?
Obedient to what? "Good" behavior?
Obedient to ... keeping the faith unto the end?
What does it mean to "be obedient"?
love, Eden
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scythewieldor
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Dear bluefrog,
Obedience gives substance to hope; not faith. Faith is hope substantiated by obedience.
The people who were recognized as heroes of the faith gave substance to their hope by being obedient.
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bluefrog
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Mr S...I would say that obedience reflects faith but it's giving faith substance I'm not sure of.
That sounds like you are saying that the more you obey the more faith you will have.
To Obey God shows your faith in Him. Saving faith is expressed in acts and made complete by what one does.
James 2:18 Yea, a man may say Thou hast faith, and I have works; shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
There are gobs of stories in the bible where folks didn't trust (have faith) and ended up lost.
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scythewieldor
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Dear bluefrog,
What I taught my family is that man's obedience gives substance to the hope declared by God. Obedience is the evidence that the invisible God, who can not lie, has spoken.
quote:
He 11:1 ¶ Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
4 ¶ By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
I do not believe that being broke is like Christ. I believe that, in a world that rewards rebellion, the humble will have to make do until God's will is done on earth as it is in heaven.
It isn't legalism at all. Legalism is a means by which men compare themselves with each other in order to determine who gets all the marbels. Living by faith and not by sight is the sense that the sovereign God, who by no means was required to be mindful of man (much less me), sent His Word in the form of a man so that we could know how to work peace, joy, and righteousness on earth as it is in heaven.
Besides, I know something I didn't tell you, except through the lightest allusion. The argument you made was made by others, back then. It didn't work on me then, either. And many of those who presented that argument...
Let's just say that men who are putting on the armor should save their boasting for after the battle.
quote:
1 Co 3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God’s husbandry, ye are God’s building.
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 ¶ For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.
14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16 ¶ Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
18 ¶ Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.
The proof is in the puddin'.
I pray that my faith not fail. God's Word has been faithful and true so far, though.
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bluefrog
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Mr S...Continued:
Back in OT times, believers were called righteous. They followed the Law and those who had faith in God were righteous. Man was learning right from wrong. As we all know, they went overboard. OT Law was outwardly.
Jesus knew we were and always will be sinners. Jesus came to pay the penalty for our sins. The righteousness God is concerened with is inner righteousness; a character that is God-like in nature. Withous it, one is certain not to enter the kingdom of heaven.
So, a person must be righteous within to be accepted by God. But nothing a person can do makes him righteous. What a deal ?
So, Think Abraham. God accepted him because he had faith in Him. With it righteousness. God punishes all sin, yours, mine, and everyones. Since Christ gave his life for our sins the punishment has been given, even before the sin.
Psalm 35:27,28 Let them shout for joy, and be glad, that favour my righteous cause; yea, let them say continually, Let the Lord be magnified, which hath pleasure in the prosperity of his servant. And my tongue shall speak of thy righteous and of thy praise all the day long.
Through your righteousness you can receive gifts from God, gifts of all kinds. You are adopted into the Kingdom of God, Title and Deed, He said so and He doesn't change his mind or lie.
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Michael Harrison
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I was enriched by that schthewieldor. It feels good to be glad for somebody.
Thanks so much Glory belongs to Him. I don't know if you'll find anyone who will agree with you. But it feels good to hear it. You know, we all have our burden to bear. We all partake of the sufferings of Christ. And there is something good in it, though we would change it if we could. But would it be wise? And there is a point in this, being that HE has a plan. And He knows how to bless us beyond what we could even dream up, and ask fpr. I know that I heard that a lot as a baby Christian. It took me a while before I realized it though. It's in the relationship.
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bluefrog
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Mr S...I see where you are coming from. I have met others with the same understanding.
From the basics of what you have said it seems that you feel that being broke is Christ like and your wife and kids have been taught the same.
I totally disagree with that attitude because God never said that was His will. The scripture that you listed are talking to those who do not trust in God for their security.
God wants his family to prosper. Being prosperous is nothing to be ashamed of, but if gained properly will glorify the Lord. Your position with the FD could have been used to glorify God could it not? To leave them because they may have not been God like is not something Jesus would have done.
Maybe I have your story all wrong, and I hope so, but if not lets talk more about it. OK?
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scythewieldor
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Dear Believers,
I believe Michael Harrison recognized the will of God.
quote:
1Co 6:16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
Even joining with a harlot for, presumably, temporary purposes substantiates a "joining".
How about these for "costs"?
Example One
In 1980, I became a fireman on a well-paying FD- and promptly became addicted to every man's weakness. When it became clear that I could not stay in that environment and maintain a good testimony, I had to leave. However, for me, it was more than to maintain a good testimony. I could not stand the idea that my weakness was, certainly, going to destroy the members of my family.
By now, I could have been very close to a good retirement. Instead, I have my first wife, and all my children serve God.
Good trade.
Example Two
My wife comes from the kind of stock that can accomplish anything. When she saw, in the Word of God, that she was to be a keeper at home, she trusted God to make all provisions through me while she home-schooled our kids.
There were 3 years or so (after FD days) when I averaged about $8000/yr doing every legal kind of work that was offered.
You, probably, have never seen how Americans who will not go on welfare have to live when they are at that income level.
None of our children, however, have been a moral embarrassment. They have taken possession of their own faith in a remarkable way, both, near and far.
Good trade.
There are other examples, but the evidence of the good trades are yet to be manifest.
As I have posted here so many times, the New Testament repeats the commandment to work with our hands many times. As we all know, America is committed to removing spendable honor from the people who make the things every one wants to own. Suffice it to say that, unlike the rich, I may not have had my reward, yet.
quote:
Lu 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Ja 5:1 ¶ Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you.
2 Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten.
3 Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.
4 Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth.
5 Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter.
1 Ti 6:8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.
9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
Also, I have remained out of debt because I am following the Spirit into the Truth that sets people free.
quote:
Pr 22:7 The rich ruleth over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender.
Mt 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
Lu 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
We are not 'just now' coming into the time when that wisdom is beginning to prove fruitful. Part of the fruit is that I have never had to remove my wife from her calling in order to help make sure we didn't lose a house for which a mortgage must be paid.
Again, my children got to keep the holy influence of a godly mother while others were being traded off to God-hating public schools by their parents- for the sake of that second income.
Good trade.
Sounds like boasting, maybe, but I have maintained all along that the Holy Spirit gave us wisdom in the Bible which could never be confounded.
quote:
1 Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
Ps 34:2 My soul shall make her boast in the LORD: the humble shall hear thereof, and be glad.
The Lord has made me able to escape that youthful problem, too. I fled. He made the flight fruitful.
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Glory belongs to Him
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Michael are you a professor are something?, seems as though you have the ability to project words very expressively.
I must say that was meaningful reply to my question. If it's God's Will for you and your ex to come together again I know it will happen. You have the right spirit my brother, may God continue to enrichly bless and keep you strong.
Selah,
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If you ever get so hungry for God that you are in pursuit of Him, He will do things for you that He won't do for anybody else.
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Michael Harrison
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Glory belongs: That could easily be an excuse for one to justify making the same mistake twice! Just making an observation. People look for any excuse to do their own thing, rather than search Him out to know His will.
In my case, I am convinced that we were joined, even though the circumstances were the most peculiar compared to others. I'll not elaborate. But I am rather convinced that it was not His will for me to explore a 'replacement'; and that is what it would have been, for there is something about that first one. In fact, that is a clue that something registered in heaven when one the first one took place, for thereafter, relationships become different somehow. What was in the first, usually cannot be replaced.
And it is like the committment to Christ. Sometimes someone does not 'feel' anything. But that is not a measure of whether one 'got saved'. And the one should perservere, because if he determines that he or she did not get saved, then a mistake could be made in the decisions of one's life that may have huge consequences. In other words, once one decides to follow, he or she should.
So, in marriage, if one went through the motions, one more than likely must face the music. For one thing there is a document which is produced. And for another, society will recognize the document, therefore you are bound. And if one 'goes before God' asking to be joined, what is one to 'assume'? This of course doesn't work with happy people, because happy folk 'cannot' be joined by God, insomuch as one cannot join a pig and a goat!
They may be able to genetically now. But is that not tampering with God's sovereignity?
And I meant to add, HE is fully able to bring me together with a replacement, if He wanted. I guess though, that I was left out. But:
- 1Th 5:18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
And:
- Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
And some people reject chastening, and stick with the school of hard knocks. Ever heard one of em? Sometimes these are characterized by grumbling and complaining.
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Glory belongs to Him
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Michael read your post about your marriage.
It is true that God's Word says that "What God has joined together let no man put asunder."
But I am a firm believer that God doesn't join all marriages together. Scripture does speak of unequal yokes marrying out of the Will of God. Not saying this was your case but it was a thought that came to mind will reading your post and relating to marriages that I have seen. Many couldn't and didn't stand for they never counted the cost.
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If you ever get so hungry for God that you are in pursuit of Him, He will do things for you that He won't do for anybody else.
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Theo Philite
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I am rather young, and so do not have a lot of examples that are communicable of sacrifices I have had to make for my beliefs.
However, I once had a friend who had aspergers, and he was a loner like you couldn't believe. He is the oddest person I have ever met, and everyone who met him would shun his friendship because he was "weird" (and speaking as his friend, I mean he was "weird"). He was my neighbor, and I had a friendly disposition towards him because we would play Risk out in my backyard virtually everyday for hours on end, for an entire summer, just adding rules as we went along to keep the game fresh and entertaining. I considered him a friend in all truth and honesty, and he considered me one as well. But the thing was, was that I was his only friend. Perhaps ever.
But in due course he eventually told me that he was gay, and regardless of whether the members of this forum believe that it is a choice or not is meaningless for the rest of the story. But, we were both in highschool, and you can only imagine the ridicule that anyone who is gay will recieve there, including all of their friends as well. But I stuck by his side, as long as he went to my school, and didn't abandon him during his inner turmoil during those years. The cost, of course was the fact that I was from that point on a target for bullying, snide remarks, and humiliation. But I am so very glad for how I behaved all throughout those ordeals, because if I hadn't I would seriously be regretting it now. But on that matter at least, my conscience is clear.
And just because the reminisceing has brought the memory to mind, I remember his particular response during that time when I was an athiest. After telling him that he said "What! How could you possibly believe that?" and I said, "You believe in God, really?", and he waved his hand out towards the grass and sky and said "How could I not when the grass is soooooo green, and the sky is so blue, and everything is so beautiful, do you really believe that it could be anything else but God?"
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"Even on a cloudy day I will be your friend"
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Michael Harrison
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He doesn't want to be pried open bluefrog. He probably finds it easier to avoid you than take a chance that you will try.
Costs? I got hitched. I shouldn't uh. I was barely months old in Jesus, but I wanted this girl for life. I couldn't even consider what God wanted. I blew it. (Whew! Costs? I mean, she was everything I wanted plus a whole lot) After that, in studying the bible, I discovered that "Whatsoever God hath joined together, let not man put asunder." And this scripture was reinforced over and over, though some refuse to see. And the reason is this: Whatsoever 'God' hath joined together, man cannot by any means separate. That is why the marriage vow reads, "Till death do you part." Because when God joins you together, you are "ONE" flesh. It is like the miracle of conception. It is something that happens which we do not understand.
Let me tell you, I paid. But I was a lone ranger. I considered the word, thouroughly, and was convicted. Therefore I accepted what was entirely impossible for me to consider, which was remaining single. But I chose to go with God.
All my contemporaries ignored this position. If they had been married, and divorced, they could only see forgiveness in the Bible. So, they did it over (and in some cases, over again!). But I cannot speak for them. I speak for me. But this was, to me, the price of serving God. He required it. Now, I could have done my own thing anyway, but I can only speculate, reasonably, that it would not have gone well. So essentially it would boil down to, when would I learn. So I bit the bullet then.
Life has been somewhat strange as a result. But I am one wealthy man. Of course, persecution comes with that wealth.
In my pleadings with her, one of her defenses was something sciptural which I cannot recall at the moment (something about not re-marrying her after she had been married again). But it didn't apply in my case. I didn't give her a divorce. She 'took' it. What she was claiming was only in force if I had given her a divorce. And when she left, she asked me to get the divorce. The impression is as clear today as it was then; the Holy Spirit led me 'not' to be the one to get the divorce. (And as a result of this I have always held out hope.)
Now, I groaned and moaned and suffered immeasurably, wanting to be reinstated with my bad choice. Probably got me into trouble, if someone who had no right to spy on me intruded into my suffering, which someone who had no business did. Perhaps they are trying to make it into something else. I'd like to give em a full reproof, with finger pointed and scolding too.
But I prayed hard for years, encouraged by testamony of others who in some cases prayed for nearly a lifetime before they saw results. Cause some have prayed that hard for that long. You'll hear stories. But I was only dissapointed. Nevertheless I'll tell ya, what I found was worth the suffering. If I could only share it! But no one wants more of Him cause they do not want to pay the price. They want to go with their choices, not His.
Oh, and I forgot to mention that God doesn't want me to be rich. I worked for years to get into a money making position. I had some good positions, as far as laboring goes. But I never could get ahead. (And I can get all elaborate talking about the in's, and out's of this.) Now I have an appreciation for:
- Php 4:11 Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content.
I keep expecting a ministry to spring forth in full swing. It has not. But I can refer back to the verse Php 4:11
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bluefrog
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OK, I'll lay a Cost on ya.
One of the guys who does the communion and offering at church does the prayer every other week. You can never hear him. Everyone keeps an eye on him so they can tell when he says Amen.
I helped him a couple of times and I could hear most of what he said, standing next to him, and it was pretty good. After the service I went to him and complimented him on the content of the prayer. Then I messed up and suggested he speak loud enough for the rest of us to hear. He said, Well, I don't want to be like the guy at the temple trying to show off.
I tried to tell him that he missed the message. It wasn't the volumn but the bragging that was the problem. Well, he is now upset with me and is even worse now. He used to be friendly.
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Theo Philite
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Just out of curiousity, what "cost" have some of you experienced?
I want to hear some of your own stories so that I might reflect, and perhaps see a better way to live my own life.
And stories about how you "wished" you had paid the "cost" would also be appreciated. I think that maybe equally important, you yourself might learn something by the self-reflection...which as I said earlier is almost too hard to even do.
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"Even on a cloudy day I will be your friend"
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Eden
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bluefrog wrote quote:
I have no problem admiting making a mistake. The only thing that bothers me when I make a mistake is the idea that someone else might have counted on me for the information or action.
Yeah, like January 1, 34 A.D. I was just about ready to change all my charts, after giving great thanks for this new information...LOL
Standing whatever the cost...
love, Eden
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Eden
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dear Theo Philite, you wrote quote:
Maybe not everyone has a skeleton in their closet. But certainly very very few people are willing to admit that they do, and give that skeleton a proper burial in the backyard.
I don't know about burying my skeletons (plural) in my backyard, but I am thankful that Jesus died for all of them, Amen? ![[Bible]](graemlins/bible.gif)
What is the most recent skeleton that I can think of right now? I have to take the fifth on that one.
But compared to how I used to be, I have definitely improved in Jesus Christ.
love, Eden
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Theo Philite
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Maybe the word "mistake" wasn't the one I wanted to use.
Maybe I should say: How often has one done something that causes celebration in hell ![[mad2]](graemlins/mad2.gif) ![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif) , and can bring themselves to admit their responsibility to themselves, let alone to others.
For example (and this doesn't count for me because I do not really know you guys): I once kissed my best friends fiance...and he found out that a guy kissed her, and just didn't know who (ahhhh...that was ironic when it happened), and I never told him it was me.
Maybe not everyone has a skeleton in their closet. But certainly very very few people are willing to admit that they do, and give that skeleton a proper burial in the backyard.
But that could be another thing to stand firm on...just a thought.
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"Even on a cloudy day I will be your friend"
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bluefrog
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I have no problem admiting making a mistake.
The only thing that bothers me when I make a mistake is the idea that someone else might have counted on me for the information or action.
It does not upset me to admit a mistake in front of others.
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Theo Philite
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How often does one admit ones own mistakes to oneself, let alone before others?
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"Even on a cloudy day I will be your friend"
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Michael Harrison
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Bluefrog, you could have written this:
quote:
Like I said THEO, the person who ANGERS you, controls you. Didn't sound like you were ANGRY.
....like this:
Like I SAID theo, the person who ANGERS you, CONTROLS you. Didn't sound like YOU were ANGRY!
(Just havin fun!)
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scythewieldor
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Dear Believers,
About self-control...
quote:
Pr 16:26 ¶ He that laboureth laboureth for himself; for his mouth craveth it of him.
What do you crave? Some crave revenge, some wine.
quote:
Mt 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
Ps 34:8 O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him.
Ps 119:103 How sweet are thy words unto my taste! yea, sweeter than honey to my mouth!
Some appetites can never be satisfied.
One can. After developing a craving for that One, the experience of being filled will put you in the mood for standing- whatever the cost.
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bluefrog
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ONEINCHRIST...Yes, I knew what you were saying.
I just couldn't help myself on the two issues I spoke of.
I agree that you need to handle these things just the way you did. These types of things happen around me fairly often. However, I don't let them stick when thrown at me (figure of speech). Especially having been a Military Training Instructor for so long. My spouce says I am not politically correct too often. It takes a lot to get me angry that way but when they do, I loose. I get all up tight and for what? If I am wrong I correct it, and if the other party is wrong I expect them to correct it.
That way everybody feels Gooder. It that don't work, get a 2x4 and knock em up side the head. lol
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oneinchrist
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Hi Bluefrog,
In the context of my post on this matter I was speaking of lies that are either about me or about another family member or friend of mine.........I was not speaking about lies in general that we may hear about on television or in the newspaper. The point that I was trying to stress is that........though it is true that self-control and slow to anger are good attributes, there can be times that we need to speak up forthrightly the truth on a matter......
For ex: The friend of mine that I was referring to would keep saying that someone was a hypocrite. Yes, it would make me angry and I did not see any benefit to remaining silent on the issue. I asked my friend, "Do you realize that you are condemning that other person with that type of accusation?....Isnt it God who judges the hearts of men?"
In this situation I did not feel it was a benefit to my freind to leave him thinking it was ok to label another person as a hypocrite. Yes, what I said may have put some tension between us, but I believe the "truth" is what matters no matter how uncomely of a reaction I may get from that friend.
With love in Christ, Daniel
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bluefrog
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Yes, Even on a cloudy day.
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Theo Philite
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I would say that the anger controls you, and choose not to believe that the person doing the angering is malicious and trying to manipulate us. The anger is the enemy, I agree, not the person doing the angering. Yes, I agree with that whole-heartedly.
So we should beat the enemy, without taking it out on the person.
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"Even on a cloudy day I will be your friend"
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bluefrog
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Like I said THEO, the person who ANGERS you, controls you. Didn't sound like you were ANGRY.
You were questioning or maybe misunderstanding or ate too much. lol
When a person gets ANGRY do you not agree that they loose control most of the time, n' stuff?
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Theo Philite
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"the person that angers you controls you"-bluefrog
In my experience when a friend angers me it is not on purpose, or in an attempt to provoke the reaction that they want. It is because of a misunderstanding.
When a child does something wrong and the parent decides to whip the child, the good parent will not immediately do it. The good parent will wait until she/he is no longer angry, and then will better be able to administer the punishment without accidentally going to far.
So do I with my friendships. I do not react with anger when something done by one of my friends makes me angry (I speak of this as if it is a common occurence, but I assure you that it is not), but instead ask about it in a respectful, considerate, understanding manner (truly trying to be all those things), and usually find that it was a misunderstanding on my part (even if it was badly worded on their part...etc.). And I, of course do not hold it against them, and if asked about why I wanted to know I answer honestly in a phrase of something like "I didn't know if you meant...or something else", and their typical response is "oh NO!, that is not what I meant...etc."
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"Even on a cloudy day I will be your friend"
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bluefrog
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ONEINCHRIST...Lies like,,,I am an American Citizen, I did not have sex with that woman,
or bearing false witness ?
They must be paying off though. One has been elected for President of America, One is being paid big bucks to go around making speeches, and bearing false witness is going on daily giving satisfaction to the many.
So, what good does it do to get angry?
Our duty is to be witnesses, not judges. hehe
The person that angers you..controls you.
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oneinchrist
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Hi Theo,
Welcome to Christian BBS. I can associate with you on something you stated in your post. I too also have a particular friend that happens to get me upset/mad ........and I have found myself struggling to maintain my patience with him. I am not always quiet when he upsets me. I do voice some of my thoughts towards him even if I think that they may get him upset.
I believe that it is good to cultivate Godly virtue/submit to the Holy Ghost, but I also believe that there are times when we need to speak openly especially if there are "lies" that are circulating around.
With love in Christ, Daniel
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Glory belongs to Him
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1 Peter 4:8
Above all love each other deeply for "Love covers a multitude of sins".
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If you ever get so hungry for God that you are in pursuit of Him, He will do things for you that He won't do for anybody else.
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Theo Philite
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I have found that there is also a different kind of standing firm other than standing firm under persecution and sufferings.
I have noticed that the much more difficult one is standing firm even when a more desirable road is presented to you. The easy road is never the one that should be traveled. Virtues such as honesty, patience, love and forgiveness should all be cultivated even in testing circumstances.
For instance, I am often angry with one of my friends. But I do not express my anger, I do not hold her responsible for doing what she does not know angers me, I do not react with words or actions I would like to react with. Out of love, I am willing to know, understand, and believe that her intentions are not ill-begotten...and that is a stand I have to take every now and then, and I honestly hope I never fail to take it, because if I do, then it will be up to her to take a stand on forgiveness, and it will be upon her constitution and not my own on which I will have to rely.
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"Even on a cloudy day I will be your friend"
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bluefrog
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Go ahead....say it. And we will admire it.
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Eden
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But if not..., now THERE is a phrase to admire.
love, Eden
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Glory belongs to Him
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Good Post!
As for me and my house we will serve the Lord! (Joshua 24:14)
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If you ever get so hungry for God that you are in pursuit of Him, He will do things for you that He won't do for anybody else.
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oneinchrist
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Hi Wild B,
Good post!
I believe that everyones faith is tested.......and that through the test it becomes evident who our God/god really is........whether it is the god of this world(and all he stands for) or whether it is the God of the Heavens (and all He stands for).
With love in Christ, Daniel
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