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Topic: Baptism and the Great Commission
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Eden
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posted
Hi, scythewieldor, these verses that you posted are important in this matter. I'm referring to these 3 verses:
De 32:21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.
Isa 7:8 For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and within threescore and five years shall Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people.
1Pe 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
I haven't looked yet for and have not yet found the verses that say that Ephraim "can't remember who they used to be" after Ephraim was mixed among the Gentiles", but I will get to it.
But the 3 verses above that you posted are important, as to that matter.
"Have a blessed turky day. I love turkey breast with chili". Eden
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scythewieldor
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Dear Eden,
quote:
De 32:6 Do ye thus requite the LORD, O foolish people and unwise? is not he thy father that hath bought thee? hath he not made thee, and established thee?
De 32:21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.
Isa 7:8 For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and within threescore and five years shall Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people.
1Pe 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
Ho 8:8 Israel is swallowed up: now shall they be among the Gentiles as a vessel wherein is no pleasure.
God's testimony was that Israel, when they were together, was a foolish people. When God divided the seed of Jacob into two nations, how could one of them be anything but a foolish nation?
He promised that Israel would become "not a people". How can you remember what people you are if you are not a people?
God made Israel and Judah two nations of the seed of Jacob. This allowed God to keep the promise He made to Israel when they were a single people that He would provoke Israel to jealousy with "not a people". Becoming "not a people" scattered among the nations and "swallowed up", Israel became available for re-gathering into the Holy Nation which could provoke the other nation to jealousy.
Thus, He was able to accomplish all that He promised Abraham using, only, His own portion and inheritance.
quote:
De 32:9 For the LORD’S portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.
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scythewieldor
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posted
Dear Eden,
How about this one?
quote:
De 32:26 ¶ I said, I would scatter them into corners, I would make the remembrance of them to cease from among men:
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Eden
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posted
scythewieldor, this time I read all the verses that you posted above, but IMO none of those qualify for Israel-Ephraim "having forgotten who they were while among the Gentiles".
I remember from reading some books about British Israelitism that there WERE some specific verses which mentioned this Israel-Eprhaim "not remembering anymore who they were", but those were NOT the verses that you mentioned.
Thanks for posting what you posted, I will go search those books for the verses that I had in mind, and then we can go from there.
love, Eden
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bluefrog
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posted
SKYWHATEVER....the weather is good here and it helps with a good attitude. I hope the weather where you are improves. I might also suggest that you copyright your posts due to their length.
God will see to it that Israel is taken care of in due time, on his schedule, and in his plan.
As a matter of fact he has been working on it since their return as documented.
See you on the debate board, not.
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scythewieldor
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Dear Eden,
Please. Less confusion. More focus.
WildB spelled my new title "S-K-Y-W-A-K-E-R".
I will repeat it so that you know I didn't misspell. Skywaker. Skywaker. Skywaker.
No "L".
Several have tried to re-misnomer me, but I prefer "Skywaker" to all the others.
Ephraim forgets...
quote:
Is 17:3 The fortress also shall cease from Ephraim, and the kingdom from Damascus, and the remnant of Syria: they shall be as the glory of the children of Israel, saith the LORD of hosts.
4 And in that day it shall come to pass, that the glory of Jacob shall be made thin, and the fatness of his flesh shall wax lean.
5 And it shall be as when the harvestman gathereth the corn, and reapeth the ears with his arm; and it shall be as he that gathereth ears in the valley of Rephaim.
6 ¶ Yet gleaning grapes shall be left in it, as the shaking of an olive tree, two or three berries in the top of the uppermost bough, four or five in the outmost fruitful branches thereof, saith the LORD God of Israel.
7 At that day shall a man look to his Maker, and his eyes shall have respect to the Holy One of Israel.
8 And he shall not look to the altars, the work of his hands, neither shall respect that which his fingers have made, either the groves, or the images.
9 ¶ In that day shall his strong cities be as a forsaken bough, and an uppermost branch, which they left because of the children of Israel: and there shall be desolation.
10 Because thou hast forgotten the God of thy salvation, and hast not been mindful of the rock of thy strength, therefore shalt thou plant pleasant plants, and shalt set it with strange slips:
If they have forgotten God in the place of their nativity, and, if they have begun to mix with the people of another country while still livng in their own land, what would keep them in remembrance of their identity when they are spread out to all the nations? (Not quite the definitive answer to your question? Let's make this post bigger. Nyaah-nyaah)
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Je 3:12 ¶ Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever.
13 Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORD.
14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:
15 And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.
16 And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the LORD, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the LORD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more.
17 At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.
18 In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given for an inheritance unto your fathers.
19 But I said, How shall I put thee among the children, and give thee a pleasant land, a goodly heritage of the hosts of nations? and I said, Thou shalt call me, My father; and shalt not turn away from me.
20 ¶ Surely as a wife treacherously departeth from her husband, so have ye dealt treacherously with me, O house of Israel, saith the LORD.
21 A voice was heard upon the high places, weeping and supplications of the children of Israel: for they have perverted their way, and they have forgotten the LORD their God.
22 Return, ye backsliding children, and I will heal your backslidings. Behold, we come unto thee; for thou art the LORD our God.
23 Truly in vain is salvation hoped for from the hills, and from the multitude of mountains: truly in the LORD our God is the salvation of Israel.
24 For shame hath devoured the labour of our fathers from our youth; their flocks and their herds, their sons and their daughters.
25 We lie down in our shame, and our confusion covereth us: for we have sinned against the LORD our God, we and our fathers, from our youth even unto this day, and have not obeyed the voice of the LORD our God.
There are several points in this passage that declare the loss of identity of Ephraim-led Israelites. The clearest is "our confusion covereth us".
The word that is translated "covereth" here is the same word that is translated "covereth" when the waters covered the high hills of the whole earth.
That would indicate unrecognizability rendered by confusion.
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Jer 50:4 In those days, and in that time, saith the LORD, the children of Israel shall come, they and the children of Judah together, going and weeping: they shall go, and seek the LORD their God.
5 They shall ask the way to Zion with their faces thitherward, saying, Come, and let us join ourselves to the LORD in a perpetual covenant that shall not be forgotten.
6 My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace.
The Lord's lost sheep (Israel), having been driven away to the mountains by their shepherd's (Judah), have forgotten their restingplace.
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Ho 4:1 ¶ Hear the word of the LORD, ye children of Israel: for the LORD hath a controversy with the inhabitants of the land, because there is no truth, nor mercy, nor knowledge of God in the land.
2 By swearing, and lying, and killing, and stealing, and committing adultery, they break out, and blood toucheth blood.
3 Therefore shall the land mourn, and every one that dwelleth therein shall languish, with the beasts of the field, and with the fowls of heaven; yea, the fishes of the sea also shall be taken away.
4 Yet let no man strive, nor reprove another: for thy people are as they that strive with the priest.
5 Therefore shalt thou fall in the day, and the prophet also shall fall with thee in the night, and I will destroy thy mother.
6 ¶ My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Israel is destroyed for lack of knowledge. They have no truth. How can an ancient identity survive where their is no knowlege or truth part of which would, necessarily, be the identity?
quote:
Jude 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
The people of Judah would never forget the departure of Israel from Egypt. Who would have forgotten it? Some body did.
quote:
1 Co 10:1 ¶ Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
Corinth is the city where the response of the Jews to the gospel was so contrary that Paul turned from them to the nationals. These nationals he calls 'brethren' and then says "I would not that ye should be ignorant that all our fathers..."
The fathers of the nationals in Corinth were with the fathers of Paul and his helpers when Moses brought them out of Egypt. However, Paul felt he had to overcome the ignorance of that unity in this letter.
Need more?
I gotta go to work.
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Eden
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posted
Dear Skywalker, you wrote in your alter ego quote:
I really like this board a lot. Eden and Michael Harrison don't agree with me all the time, but they are serious explorers of Bible.
Thanks for the compliment. Be blessed.
Try writing in smaller chunks, to answer more specific questions, such as this one (u may have already answered it elsewhere, but...)... Where does it say again in the Bible that Israel-Ephraim shall be mixed in with the "Gentiles" so the extent that Israel-Ephraim THINKS they are also Gentiles? Thanks.
Try to answer in smaller chunks, so we can make some progress in what is mutually agreed-upon.
love, Eden
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scythewieldor
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posted
Dear WildB,
quote:
WildB
Avatar Image
Advanced Member
Member # 2917
posted November 24, 2008 09:08 AM
So luke skywaker why is it you stopped visiting the Hippy Board?
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That is all.....
Thank you for calling me "Skywaker". I like that. You might have created a new handle for me.
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Ps 7:6 Arise, O LORD, in thine anger, lift up thyself because of the rage of mine enemies: and awake for me to the judgment that thou hast commanded.
Ps 35:23 Stir up thyself, and awake to my judgment, even unto my cause, my God and my Lord.
Ps 44:23 Awake, why sleepest thou, O Lord? arise, cast us not off for ever.
Ps 57:8 Awake up, my glory; awake, psaltery and harp: I myself will awake early.
Ps 59:4 They run and prepare themselves without my fault: awake to help me, and behold.
Ps 59:5 Thou therefore, O LORD God of hosts, the God of Israel, awake to visit all the heathen: be not merciful to any wicked transgressors. Selah.
Hippy board doesn't seem to have any serious explorers of scripture.
I really like this board a lot. Eden and Michael Harrison don't agree with me all the time, but they are serious explorers of Bible.
And there is you. You always (and I mean "always" except when you cut and paste Stam or Miller) send up a hot air balloon that is so easy to shoot down.
Stam and Miller, when they stay away from the dispensational stuff, really have some good stuff to say. Honestly, I don't respond to those posts much because, by and large, their content on grace is fabulous. (Besides, when I do you just delete me.)
Thanks for the amusement (and the good stuff, as well), WildB.
By the way, I really like you (and when I don't, I ask God to fix me), and I have been praying for you.
Personal questions get personal responses. Public questions get... well... public responses.
Fair enough?
Of course not.
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scythewieldor
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Dear Believers,
quote:
1 Tm 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
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2 Pt 3:1 ¶ This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
3 ¶Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
When there is a popular sense of the failure of the promises of God, those who wish to make a living peddling the word of God have to make "adaptations" to it.
quote:
2 Tm 4:1 ¶ I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
The people who are willing to change definitions of the words the Holy Spirit chose for the message that He heard spoken in heaven can make these "adaptations" for which people will pay "good money"- lots of people and lots of "good money".
Oh, the Holy Spirit calls it filthy lucre.
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Tit 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre‘s sake.
Since we hear people telling us to disregard the faithful word ("doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings", and "the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of" the apostles of the Lord and Saviour), then I find it compelling to remind you as Jude reminded you.
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Jude 1:17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
Remember that the salvation offered is common for holy people, and be diligent to contend for the faith by which we are saved, authored and finished by our Lord Jesus Christ, which He once delvered to the holy people.
quote:
Jude 3 ¶ Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
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scythewieldor
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posted
Dear WildB,
Your focus on maintaining the man-made doctrine makes you blind to so much Bible.
quote:
Ac 10:23 Then called he them in, and lodged them. And on the morrow Peter went away with them, and certain brethren from Joppa accompanied him.
24 And the morrow after they entered into Caesarea. And Cornelius waited for them, and had called together his kinsmen and near friends.
25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.
Ga 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
1Pe 5:13 The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.
For some reason, there are many people who would like us to forget that the circumcision to which Peter was sent had a huge population in Babylonia on the Euphrates. This statement can, therefore, be taken as literally as any statement in the Bible- and it should be.
However, if you want to obscure the facts of the Bible- and many do want to obscure the facts of the Bible- you will try to make Babylonia into Rome or Jerusalem. The result of such a thing would be to make the testimony of the Lord something that could not make the simple wise.
In that case, you might as well say Babylonia is Memphis, Tennessee, and Peter talked to the circumcised Indians from a UFO.
I would like you to read the first few verses of Acts, again.
quote:
Ac 1:1 ¶ The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,
2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
So, now you know that Jesus commanded them to stay at Jerusalem. No wonder they stayed at Jerusalem. The One who bought them with His own blood said "Stay at Jerusalem".
This was necessary for they were judging the twelve tribes of the regenerated Holy Nation- the Israel of God.
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Mt 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Lu 22:30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Ac 26:7 Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope’s sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews.
Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
It would be real hard to make the commandments and judgements of the Lord Jesus known to the twelve tribes of regenerated Israel if they were not in close touch with each other at the most likely place of centrality for such a group as the Twelve Tribes so that issues like the one that arose at Antioch could have their ruling.
However, as I have pointed out so often, Paul, among the cities of the nations, was teaching the decrees of the apostles and elders at Jerusalem.
quote:
Ac 16:1 ¶ Then came he to Derbe and Lystra: and, behold, a certain disciple was there, named Timotheus, the son of a certain woman, which was a Jewess, and believed; but his father was a Greek:
2 Which was well reported of by the brethren that were at Lystra and Iconium.
3 Him would Paul have to go forth with him; and took and circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters: for they knew all that his father was a Greek.
4 And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem.
5 And so were the churches established in the faith, and increased in number daily.
So, the apostles did become witnesses in the nations of their day through their epistles and the men they sent.
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Ac 15:22 ¶ Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
30 So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle:
If you do not think that letters are the same as being in person...
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2Co 10:11 Let such an one think this, that, such as we are in word by letters when we are absent, such will we be also in deed when we are present.
So, whatever you teach remember this...
quote:
2Pe 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
3 ¶ Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 ¶ But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 ¶ The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Jude 1:17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
Quiz (Fill in the blank)
- Since the Lord told the apostles to teach the things whatsoever he had commanded them, and,
- Since the apostles did what they were told to do, and,
- Since the apostles tell us through Holy Writ to remember the things taught by the apostles, then,
- ...............................................
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yahsway
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Member # 3738
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posted
WildB, Peter went to Caesarea under the commission of God.
Acts 10:34
Then Peter opened his mouth and said "In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality.
But in every Nation whoever fears Him and Works righteousness is accepted of Him.
verse 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered,
Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have recieved the Holy Spirit
just as we have?
And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.
Peter was also crucified upside down in Rome.
Posts: 1238 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Aug 2004
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Eden
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posted
WildB wrote quote:
Once again THE APOSTLES did NOT get out of JERUSALEM so how did they go to ALL NATIONS?
Uh, the Apostle Peter went to Caesarea?
Acts 10
1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band.
23 And on the morrow Peter went away with them, and certain brethren from Joppa accompanied him.
24 And on the morrow after they entered into Caesarea.
("that's all")
love, Eden
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WildB
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Member # 2917
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posted
Once again THE APOSTLES did NOT get out of JERUSALEM so how did they go to ALL NATIONS?
PAUL WAS RAISED and HE PREACHED THE "GOSPEL OF GRACE" HE went to THE NATIONS "GENTILES"
Can't you people READ with a UNDERSTANDING of the SPIRIT ?
Eph.4
[1] I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
[2] With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
[3] Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
[4] There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
[5] One Lord, one faith, one baptism,(SPIRITUAL)
[6] One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
[7] But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
QUIZ
1. What is a dispensation?
2. What other word (besides dispensation) is sometimes used in the Authorized Version to translate oikonomia?
3. Prove by Scripture that the moral law could not, in itself, save from sin.
4. Prove by Scripture that the ceremonial law could not, in itself, save from sin.
5. In what sense did works once save?
6. Were men of past dispensations saved by the death of Christ?
7. Was this preached to them?
8. Were they offered salvation by faith in the death of a coming Christ?
9. Prove by Scripture that salvation by the blood of Christ, apart from works, was not proclaimed in Old Testament times.
10. Draw a chart or state in geometrical terms the difference between truth and the revelation of truth.
11. Explain how the dispensation of law did not violate God's principle of saving men by grace through faith.
12. Would it be wrong today to observe ordinances once required for salvation?
13. Would it be wrong to observe an ordinance once required for salvation, if we acknowledged that it had no saving value?
14. Prove this by Scripture.
15. What statement by our Lord concerning baptism has been changed by most Fundamentalists to make it correspond with their views on baptism?
16. Through whom did God first begin to dispense His message and program for today?
17. Prove this by Scripture.
18. Could any Old Testament person, refusing to bring sacrificial offerings, be saved?
19. Could any under John the Baptist or at Pentecost, refusing to be baptized, be saved?
20. Give Scriptural examples.
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That is all.....
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yahsway
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Member # 3738
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posted
ThunderZ, yes, Yeshua said to go and "Make disciples, in hebrew meaning "Taught ones" of all nations.
Then He follows with Baptizing them in the name.
Baptizing who? Nations or the disciples that come out of those Nations?
"Go therefore and make DISCIPLES of all nations(all the world) Baptizing them(the disciples from those nations thruout the world).
The gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world before the end comes. Those who accept the message and teachings and follow Yeshua are His disciples.
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Thunderz7
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posted
KJV-19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
NKJV-19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
In these verses Yashua is sending the disciples to "all nations".
You can duck individuals in H2O but you need a giant tsunami to put even a very small nation under water.
The WORD is saying baptize nations in the name, not individuals in H2O.
T7
Posts: 1113 | From: Northeast Alabama | Registered: Jun 2002
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bluefrog
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posted
oneinchrist....Pretty sharp !
Disciple means a learner or student. The Greek word "mathetes" was pretty common in the Judaism of Jesus' day. So it was no surprise that it came to identify the followers of Jesus. But, the term doesn't appear at all in the Epistles.
Why? It became obsolete once Jesus ascended to heaven. At that time they became "apostoloi"
But in Acts 6:1, Luke said members of the early church were known as disciples. How bout that?
We sure are smart, huh ? LOL
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oneinchrist
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posted
Hi bluefrog,
The term "disciple/disciples" was actually used quite often after the ascension of Jesus. The book of Acts alone uses the word about 35 times.
It is true that the first 12 (excluding Judas) disciples were later referred to as apostles, but I do not see any indication that any others that were added to the church, besides Paul, were ever referred to as an apostle. So I am not sure about your thought that the word disciple was later changed to apostle. No, I do not believe that the great commision was to go out and make apostles. The apostles were very unique in the sense of what they witnessed and experienced with Jesus.
With the definition of "disciple" that you have provided I believe it safe to conclude that even the apostles were still considered "disciples" and that any and all new believers after them would also be considered disciples of the Lord Jesus.
I really believe that the term "disciple" gives positive reinforcement in that it reflects a sense of a continuing and daily process of learning from God/Jesus and accepting His correction along the way. I wished it was used more often in the churches today.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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bluefrog
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posted
ONEINCHRIST asks:
Doesn't it appear that in Matt 28:19 that Jesus is commanding/ordaining baptism as a means of entering discipleship ? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
I think you can count on that being the meaning.
However, the word disciple (Greek - mathetes) is not found in all the Epistles. This was probably because Christ had ascended to heaven.
Soooo, now thay became APOSTOLOI. How bout that?
Somethin else...Disciple meant learner or student, or someone who followed a certain movement, or school of thought, or who believe in Jesus.
Somethin else...Paul usually took younger guys with him on his journeys. But the discipleship approach by the rabbis to train leaders usually ended up producing religious elite. Christ didn't teach that of course. His leaders were to be servants.
By the way...it is verse 19 not 17 just in case.
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scythewieldor
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posted
Dear Believers,
quote:
Ga 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:
Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Php 3:2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
It is interesting to notice that, with the rise of Jewish Zionism, there has been a corresponding rise of error and intolerance (the lack of truth and grace) with the increase of Christian denominations.
In the 1800's we saw the rise of Darby-ism, Scofield-ism, and Bullinger-ism.
Who knows where their support came from. If any of you have tried to start a church, or even a home group, you know how hard that is. In spite of that, these guys made up stuff and presented it to the world as if it were revelation from heaven- as if it were very Bible of very Bible.
And they prospered.
They prospered like the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Mormons.
But they prospered at the expense of Christian influence in the world. Why?
They sowed doubt.
quote:
Mr 11:23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.
They decided that their false teachers had discovered a way to set aside the words of Jesus without setting aside salvation. Thus, they promoted division in the people of God.
quote:
Tt 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.
Ro 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
1 Tm 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
Paul taught the words of our Lord Jesus Christ and told Timothy to set the church of Ephesus up with elders and deacons who teach and consent to the words of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Obviously, and unfortunately, WildB does not. He condemns himself. There is no need to look for some problem with him. He manifests it every time he argues.
quote:
Tt 1:7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;
9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre’s sake.
What was the faithful word that had been taught? What was the sound doctrine that made a man able to, both, exhort and convince the gainsayers?
quote:
Ac 16:1 ¶ Then came he to Derbe and Lystra: and, behold, a certain disciple was there, named Timotheus, the son of a certain woman, which was a Jewess, and believed; but his father was a Greek:
2 Which was well reported of by the brethren that were at Lystra and Iconium.
3 Him would Paul have to go forth with him; and took and circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters: for they knew all that his father was a Greek.
4 And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem.
5 And so were the churches established in the faith, and increased in number daily.
The doctrine that Paul and Timothy carried to the cities of the nations came from those Israelites which had, first, walked with our Lord through His tribulation.
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yahsway
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posted
Daniel, I am in complete agreement with your post.
I once heard a man say that the first 4 gospels are the words of our Savior. The rest of the New Test is just commentary, and I agree with that statement to a degree.
The Church begins in Acts at Pentecost.
The Church has been added to since then.
It consist of both Jews and Gentiles.
Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles, but Paul did not start a "New Religon" or better said Paul did not start the "Church"
Christ comissioned it and told His disciples to go forth to all Nations, Baptize them in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and He also said to teach those nations to observe ALL things that He commanded even the disciples.
While Yeshuas ministry had been to Israel, proclamation of and adherence to His lordship is extended to all nations.
Disciples are to acknowledge openly their allegiance to Christ by the seal of water baptism
which is ministered under the authority of the entire Godhead.
Paul baptizes 12 in Acts 19.
Posts: 1238 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Aug 2004
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oneinchrist
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Member # 6532
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posted
Hi Wild B,
I figured you were going to respond to this one.
Why would Paul even have considered to command baptism when Jesus already did? A new theological belief does not void out Jesus' command. Oh how some people seem to exercise so much care with the words of Paul the apostle, but are willing trample over the Words of Jesus, the Son of God.
Oh, but Daniel are you trying to say that people have to be baptized in order to be saved???
No, not at all.........I am saying that it appears that Jesus is the One who has ordained baptism as the means of ENTERING DISCIPLESHIP. I cannot speak on the matter of salvation because it is God who tests the hearts of men. I am fully aware that it is superstitious to think that the water does anything. What matters the most is that God sees whether or not the confession of faith matches up with a sincere heart towards Him.
I did a little research and found that Paul speaks at least 12 times on the subject of baptism from Romans through Galatians. I believe it is fairly safe to assume(based on Corinthians) that Paul recognized that baptizing was not his predominant call, but that preaching was, and that baptizing new believers would then have been more the responsiblity of the leaders/disciples of the newly established churches.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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oneinchrist
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Member # 6532
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posted
Matthew 28:17
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
I dont know about you all, but doesnt it appear in the above verse that Jesus is commanding/ordaining baptism as the means of entering discipleship?
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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