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Topic: Romans 13:
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bluefrog
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posted
BRIAN GRASS....In response to your comments about Romans 13, maybe I can help.
13:1.....ordained.....Read Acts 13:48
2.....resisteth....Read Acts 18:6
3.....praise.......Read Romans 2:29
4.....raiment......Read Matt 11:8
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scythewieldor
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posted
Dear Believers,
Wow. Talk about topic drift...
Getting back to bees knees, I would like to ask who the higher authorities are?
Since all authority comes from God, He is the highest. Where do the sons of God fit into the hierarchy?
quote:
1 Co 3:21 ¶ Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours;
22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours;
23 And ye are Christ’s; and Christ is God’s.
If all authority in heaven and earth have been given to Jesus Christ, and
If we are joint-heirs with Christ, and
If all things are ours, then
Who are the higher authorities?
If the kings of the gentiles are meant, since they are our property, they must be under us but just above the lower authorities.
quote:
Heb 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.
Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
Heb 13:24 Salute all them that have the rule over you, and all the saints. They of Italy salute you.
The ones who have the rule over us would be Jesus and His apostles.
quote:
Mt 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Ac 16:4 And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem.
Jm 1:1 ¶ James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
2 ¶ My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
When Jesus commands us to go to the nations and teach them, He is letting us know that the higher powers of the gentiles are under our tutelage. In the most abusive nations, our teaching of the people will bring the hatred of their kings upon us. When we are brought into their courts, we have the sword of the Spirit to wield.
If they reject our service to Jesus Christ, they will have the famines, pestilence, and earthquakes.
quote:
Lk 21:10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name’s sake.
13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
You think that the catastrophes that are hitting America have something to do with the Jews? More likely, it is because the testimony of the REAL people of God is being rejected in the courts of America.
The American nation is rising against the Holy Nation (which we are). The kingdoms of earth are rising against the Kingdom of God.
As the Americans show their rejection of the testimony of the people of God, He sits in the heavens and laughs.
quote:
Ps 2:1 ¶ Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
7 ¶ I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.
10 ¶ Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.
We only need to finish our obedience.
quote:
2 Co 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.
Re 2;26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
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bluefrog
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posted
Ish nish sprecken de deoutch (or spell it). Basian sprecken.
Mini explanation about Eye to Eye....Like Texans say.."Don't Mess With Texas", God Says "Don't Mess With Israel".
Israel has been messed with and those who took it over found it to be a waste land eventually. But that isn't what the book is about. lol The book is about Israel being taken back by the Jews this last time. Since the take back they have been little by little giving some of Israel away and America has been behind most of it, and call it the highway to peace, and other names.
Since the very first meeting to the last, we, the USA have suffered the rath of God. Every time we have convinced them and they did release land, same thing. The rath was displayed by weather or financial difficulties. All these things happened on the same day or within 24 hours and it is all documented in the book.
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Eden
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posted
bluefrog, ze Eye to Eye by ze william koenig, is, briefly, about what?
love, Edenstein von de ...
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bluefrog
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posted
EDEN..I used to be a beekeeper, just 100 hives though. The work was too hard and too hot (Texas). Bees are facinating. They will go out and polinate and work until they die, which is about 45 days.
You have probably seen me mention it before but if you haven't read Eye to Eye by william koenig you sure have missed somethin. My comment: WOW !
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Eden
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posted
Good post, bluefrog. Yes, I know about the missing bees. In Japan they spend many weeks HAND polinating trees. I've also heard about a space rock the size of a mountain heading toward earth.
If that baby fell into the ocean, the water of the oceans worldwide would spill onto the land of much greater proportion than the tsunami set off by the earthquake off Indonesia that killed hundreds of thousands a year or two ago.
Hundreds of thousands of people, or more likely, MILLIONS of people would be pulled off the land into the sea as the water violently RETURNED OFF the land back into the sea:
Revelation 8:8
And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea; and the third part of the sea became blood.
Get your fins and snorkel ready.
love, Edensnorkelstein von ze Zilpah or ze Bilhah (two fine women)
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bluefrog
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posted
Lev 26 talks about removing the hedges. I think we have seen the removing of hedges quite clearly just lately. For example, have you been keeping up with Atlanta the past few years ? What about all the missing bees now ? Remember the passage about olives and grapes, they don't need polinated by bees. Best figured 70% of the bees are gone now. Where will our food come from? Have you noticed that the aligators are coming out of the water now to find food and the lack of polination in the cattle grazing fields, such as alfalpha, are not doing well at all ?
We are depending on other countries to supply us with oil, manufactured products, money, etc.
Remember the trade center and that at the same time we were trying to get Israel to give up God's promised land ? No, God is not causing the troubles but the hedge is removed which almost sounds like an act of Satan, which I hate to even compare it to because it isn't it is an act of our own doing. Unfortunately, we aren't smart enough to realize it.
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Eden
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posted
BrianGrass1234 wrote quote:
Whether it's the government or the mugger trying to take my wallet.
Regarding the part I bolded, the Bible also says:
James 4:7
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
On the other hand, the Bible says: quote:
Matthew 5:39
But I say to you, That you resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Luke 6:29b
And him who takes away your cloak forbid him not to take your coat also.
Matthew 5:41
And whosoever shall compel you to go a mile, go with him two miles.
To repeat what you said, BrianGrass1234[quote]Whether it's the government or the mugger trying to take my wallet.
King David did avenge himself on those of Ziglak and God did says "Go avenge Me on the Amelekites".
I can see how the government would be God's authority, and IF I am being good, all shall be well with me (as to the government).
But the mugger who "compels me" to give me my wallet? Or will the LORD not put me in that situation because God has "a hedge around me", what we Christians call "favor"?
As a friend pointed out, it is not God who does stuff to us, but the devil who hates us. It is only when God decides to withdraw His hand of protection (for whatever reason, hopefully a good one), ONLY THEN can "the event happen to me"?
love, Eden
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Caretaker
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Member # 36
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posted
God bless you Brian;
It is a difficult passage.
One should remember that Paul was writing to Believers in Rome who were suffering under Nero. Who were facing death for their faith in the most horrific of ways.
The exhortation is for a Christian to live legally/lawfully, and that governments are ordained of God.
quote:
"Fear to whom fear." There must be respect and awe for those in power, because we know that the authority they wield, is given by God. "Honor to whom honor." We must honor the man in office because of his position, not necessarily because we approve of his personal conduct or of his political activities. Nero was the Roman Emperor when Paul wrote some of his Epistles. Nero was the man who ripped open the body of his own mother, in order that he might see the womb that bore him. He was a wicked man who lived in luxury; he never wore the same garment twice; his horses were shed with silver; he fished with hooks of gold. He was the man who ordered the city of Rome to be burned, and then blamed it on the Christians. And yet this is the man of whom Peter says, "Honor the king." If under such an Emperor, Christians were called upon to be submissive and to give honor, then there is no place for rebellion under any government.
In conclusion then, the New Testament teaches that Christian people should be good citizens, loyal to the government (as long as its demands do not conflict with clear demands of God), and prompt in paying taxes. The Christian has a God-given responsibility to pray for those in authority, to willingly obey them, and to support causes that promote justice and equity.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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BrianGrass1234
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posted
I'm not saying Paul wasn't guided by the spirit, or his words hold no authority. I just find it to be more specific to whom he wrote the letter to then as a general rule. That's why I have to contrast his words with Christ's to find how it applies to me, and that application is submission to those that claim authority over me. Whether it's the government or the mugger trying to take my wallet.
I didn't disagree with the article's point regarding civil disobedience, but I was sharing my difficulty in understanding some of the passage. The part I have problems with rationalizing is the following.
1Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
I can buy in verse one that there is no power that is not allowed by God, as God is all powerful and therefore could take away any power held by any one at any time He wishes. But the part where it says all power is ordained by God just doesn't make sense. So many in power have done so much evil. I don't see how God can ordain evil. Furthermore, in Hosea 8 the prophet speaks of Kings and Princes set up by Israel that God had not put in place.
Then if verse two is says that if you resist these powers, you will receive damnation. But doesn't the church resist the authority of Muslim nations by disobeying their laws to spread the gospel. I know we add that we are to submit above all to God, but wouldn't Paul have put something in to address that if it were for all the church body forever.
Verses three and four are the hardest for me to get. From the beginning of secular governments and rulers to current, as well as in the future according to Revelations, the governing authorities have been a terror to those that do good and have done great evil and failed to punish evil doers. There are examples to the contrary of what these verses assert throughout the old testament, and the new testament. I mean look what happened to Paul himself. The powers that be killed him. I would say Paul falls in the good side of the scale, not the evil side.
This is why I imagine these verses were likely more specific to those the letter was written to and likely better understood by them, and may not have been meant to be taken in the way many interpret it now. That's why I only apply these verses in ways that can be supported by other scripture and not take it all on its own.
Posts: 203 | From: Weed, CA | Registered: Jun 2006
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Eden
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posted
Michael Harrison wrote quote:
But Romans 13 is a difficult passage to understand, and I don't get it fully.
Romans 13
1 Let every soul be subject to the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resists the power, resists the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Will you then not be afraid of the power? Do that which is good, and you shall have praise of the same.
4 For he is the minister of God to you for good. But if you do that which is evil, be afraid; for he bears not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that does evil.
5 Wherefore you must needs be subject, not only for wrath sake, but also for conscience sake.
So far it makes sense.
love, Eden
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Michael Harrison
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posted
That was a pretty good article, I thought. But I don't see where BrianGrass1234 disagreed. It sounds like he agreed. But there is a time to dissent. Look at Martin Luther! Remember that Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath. In other words, follow His lead, prayerfully. But the default is to 'submit to every ordinance', that is until they require you to deny Christ (or bend the knee to bbub).
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Caretaker
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posted
A prophet is one who speaks God's truth. God the Holy Spirit was speaking equally through Paul, just as He was through each of the other Apostles who so carefully relayed the Words of Jesus.
Peter would strongly disagree with you:
2 Peter 3:
15: And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16: As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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BrianGrass1234
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posted
I just skimmed it but I think I got the point of the article and as far as there opinion on disobedience to the state goes, I pretty much agree.
But Romans 13 is a difficult passage to understand, and I don't get it fully. But I don't given the words of Paul the same authority I give Jesus' or Moses' or the prophets. But I don't discount the wisdom he is trying to convey in his words. That's why I try to cross his words with scripture. I do know how Jesus taught us to live, and that was to live at peace will all men and to be a servant and submissive. So I see Romans 13 as more of an instruction to the early church to submit to Rome and not to rebel. To show that God does have the ability to remove the power from those that hold it, if He chooses, and so we should submit to them. It does get weird to me when it discuss' that the rulers are there to protect and to not to harm those that are good, when so many times those in power have harmed those that are good. Just read the old testament. But I realize that I am responsible for my actions, and that if someone asserts their authority over me in a way that will conflict with what I know to be right, then I will disobey that "ruler" in favor of obeying God, and let God judge that person later. But up until that point, I am to submit and do what they force me to do.
But in a democracy (or democratically elected representative government) where we all take part in ruling over our neighbor. What I do know is this. That Christians are to submit, not to force submission. Christians are to pay what taxes are imposed upon them, not impose taxes upon others. Christians are to forgive debts, not force debts upon others. We are to protect our neighbor against the aggressor, not be the aggressor.
Posts: 203 | From: Weed, CA | Registered: Jun 2006
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