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Topic: Ancient Pre-Trib Rapture Statement
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bluefrog
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posted
Excuses, excuses.
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Eden
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posted
bluefrog wrote quote:
Eden, I don't wanna get tacky but it sure would help if you would read Mark 13. While you have it out read Rev 7:9-13, 9:5, and 9:10 for starters.
It's not so much an issue of "tacky" as "too tired" and "it's been a full day already". LOL So who does what in the last days will have to wait for another day, with me.
love, Edenstein the Ephraimite
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bluefrog
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Eden, I don't wanna get tacky but it sure would help if you would read Mark 13. While you have it out read Rev 7:9-13, 9:5, and 9:10 for starters.
When I said "this is not the time to be preaching the gospel" I mean that you are just too late. Some will have their mind set and those who don't even believe in God...well.
The pre tribers will only listen to the anti-christ.
How long til they find out ? Probably when Satan is turned loose. However, instead of the seven years of trib it will be 5 months for the sake of the believers.
Will they quit their jobs and spend all their money? I don't know. Good chance huh ?
Will they get together and figure it out ? Not likely because "Control" will set in. They will be asking us questions and we answer through the Holy Spirit.
What will the Anti look like or who will it be ?
His looks will most likely be handsome but not important. His name? Who knows? The issue will be mind control (in the forehead).
What did I mean they will be turning in their loved ones ? Example: Here, Jesus, take my child. or Jesus, take my brother, he is a good man but he just doesn't understand. stuff like that.
First, they have to conclude the anti is Christ, etc. Answer: That is to be decided now. When the show starts you run for the hills or play the game.
One more comment...When Christ comes, you will not be in your body.
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Eden
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bluefrog wrote to Eden quote:
Also, this is not the time for believers to be preaching the gospel.
Uhh, what does that mean?
bluefrog, you continued: quote:
Instead, believers who think that the anti-christ (instead-of-christ) is Christ coming to rapture them up out of harm's way, and some will, they are going to be in for a big surprise.
In order for the pre-tribbers to "be in for a big surprise", the pre-tribbers FIRST have to THINK that this Antichrist IS Christ, so that they begin to think that they are GOING UP IN THE RAPTURE within what? A week? Within a month? Within 1 year? Uh, within 3-1/2 years? By now they are mid-tribbers...
And while they keep looking at this guy, wondering if he is the Anticrist or the Christ, what more can they do THAN WAIT?
What, are they going to quit their jobs and lavishly spend the last of their money because they finally have decided that the Antichrist IS Christ so they quit their jobs and spend lavishly?
Did they decide that THIS is the Christ individually or as a group of pre-tribbers maybe getting together in the BLOGOSPHERE, alerting each other that THIS MUST BE THE CHRIST?
So let's say there is an Antichrist, who WANTS to look like Christ. What in your opinion does the Antichrist have to DO in order to even LOOK LIKE CHRIST so that the pre-tribbers will even THINK that "they will shortly be raptured up"?
bluefrog, you coninued quote:
They will be turning in their loved ones too thinking they are doing them a big favor. All the activity will be very impressive to Everyone.
What do you mean by, They will be turning in their loved ones?
So bluefrog, let me repeat what you said quote:
Instead, believers who think that the anti-christ (instead-of-christ) is Christ coming to rapture them up out of harm's way, and some will, they are going to be in for a big surprise.
First they have to come to the conclusion that the Antichrist IS even Christ before they could have ANY THOUGHTS about being "raptured out of harm's way". Just deciding "who the guy is" can take quite some time. Even in our own time, Christians have variously thought that Gorbachev or Putin or now Barack Obama was or is the Antichrist, and they keep "looking, and looking...who is this guy, is he the Antichrist, is this guy the Antichrist...?"
They haven't been raptured yet, so this must be the Antichrist? What will the Antichrist look like?
love, Eden
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bluefrog
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posted
I have been trying to respond to you but every time I do the power goes off. Hmmmmmm ?
I don't think you did your assigned home work.
Purdy Please...read Mark 13.
OK, your saying that if Christ returns in Israel then how is that going to bother those in Arkansas ? Also, it sounds like you are suggesting that whatever trib a believer is they will have time to figure out who dat is and pick a trib. Jesus didn't say that or even close the way I read it. Also, this is not the time for believers to be preaching the gospel. Instead, believers who think that the anti-christ (instead-of-christ) is Christ coming to rapture them up out of harms way, and some will, they are going to be in for a big surprise. They will be turning in their loved ones too thinking they are doing them a big favor. All the activity will be very impressive to Everyone.
I'm gettin off of here on this subject before my power goes off again.
rivet rivet
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Eden
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hi, bluefrog, I had a good time reading your post, especially this part quote:
Mark 13 makes a good read as explained by Jesus about the end times. Notice in verse 24 Christ says "But in those days, AFTER THE TRIBULATION,
the sun shall be darkened...etc...etc.
Consider this...When that time does come, who will the pre-trib and even the mid-trib folks be looking for? Christ! But it won't be, it will be Satan pretending to be Christ. He warns us about that very clearly.
Very good point, but...
But, let's assume for a moment that we are at the time of such a pre-trib moment. The bornagain Christians are there on earth, all the pre-, mid-, and post-tribulation believers are all still there.
So eventhough if pre-trib Christians turn out to be WRONG about that, they will soon discover that the Antichrist is here and THEY are still here too, so...no harm no foul...because what are they going to do anyway?
Do you think that pre-trib Christians COULD be FOOLED into thinking that the Antichrist was Christ?
And it would not take many days for the pre-trib Christians to realie that it was NOT Christ but the Antichrist, because:
Luke 11:18
If Satan also is divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand?
So we who are looking at this from the year 2008 may say or think, "OMG, that is going to be SO bad, when those pre-trib Chrisitans are GONNA think that the Antichrist if Christ...oh Lordie", when in fact, the Antichrist will be in his castle or royal residence in Israel and the pre-trib Christian is located in Little Rock, Arkansas. "What's he gonna do when the Antichrist comes..."What's he gonna do when the Antichrist comes..." NOT MUCH. The harm may be more fantasy than foul. SCARDIE CATS.
love, Eden
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bluefrog
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Howdy guys and gals. This subject of the rapture has been debated, ignored, heard of, not heard of and hoped for since the mid 1800's.
You hear so many preachers refer to the rapture so often. When I started hearing this and that I figured I had better find out for myself from the bible. It is hard to do when you have already had (shall we call them) seeds planted.
To avoid giving you a long list of scriptures and speaking of pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib, and no trib Ima gonna start with this:
Mark 13 makes a good read as explained by Jesus about the end times. Notice in verse 24 Christ says "But in those days, AFTER THE TRIBULATION,
the sun shall be darkened...etc...etc.
Consider this...When that time does come, who will the pre-trib and even the mid-trib folks be looking for ? Christ ! But it won't be, it will be Satan pretending to be Christ. He warns us about that very clearly.
Someone said on this board that the tribulation period is a time to win souls and that the two who are to witness at the end are to spread the gospel. Well, I don't think so. 2 Thes 2:11-12
will give you a taste. It is too late. Also, the two witnesses will be given what to say from the Holy Spirit at the time, of which we have no idea what it will be. If you happen to be one of them ya gotta remember that.
I'm sorry, but I just don't buy the rapture theory. Those who are alive when the nasties begin described in the tribulation period, may find it worse than paying taxes and the power being off but God says he will look out for us.
You think the election went bad...I'm like Paul, I think I would rather be with Jesus at that time. My guess is that the rapture was born for the same reason. Buncha Scardiecats. lol
I am not suggesting that Jesus is not returning.
Maybe I could explain it this way...not twice, or not for the tribulation period. He will return, but when he said he would. He just didn't give a date and time. One more little tid-bit, no flesh bodies in heaven..Ain't that great !
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Eden
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Michael Harrison wrote quote:
And we notice that He is coming for a church without spot and without blemish:
Ephesians 5:27
That He might present it to Himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
That should be sobering, since we are chosen in the fire...
But the blemish will NOT be removed in our own power, as though WE were able to do anything about it:
Zechariah 4:6
Then he spoke to me, saying, This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit, says the LORD of hosts.
Again, we are declared to be "alive unto God" and then we must:
John 15:7
And if you abide in Me and My words abide in you, you shall ask what you will, and it shall be done unto you.
These "words that should abide in me" are the words that the new life spoke to me "just now", those are the "words that should abide in me" because I am now "alive unto God" and God is "streaming His new life in me"
John 15:4
Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abides in the vine; no more can you {bear fruit}, except you abide in Me.
love, Eden
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Michael Harrison
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posted
![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif) If there is a pre-trib event, only a few, and I mean only a few will go. Some believe that the whole church will go. I of course, do not anymore believe that any will go! But for those who believe that the church will altogether, go:
- 1Co 6:8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.
- 1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
- 1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
![[Prayer]](graemlins/prayer.gif) And we notice that He is coming for a church without spot and without blemish:
[list] - Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
That should be sobering, since we are chosen in the fire:
- Isa 48:10 Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.
That is the purpose of the tribulation, to purify the saint, glorify God, and convict sinners. How does anyone suppose he will escape it?
- Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
The followers who will follow Him when the chips are down are the ones He will purify. The rest will fall away. So two birds of misconception are slain with a single stone here: There is no pre-trib rap! And so much for osas.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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WildB
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
The cost of trusting in the pre-trib belief could be the cost of many souls who procrastinate and think that God is going to give them yet another chance to repent and be saved.
If the rapture is immediately followed by the time of Gods wrath(where unbelievers are prepared for the devil) there is no such time. We need to consider that implication for it is a serious one.......that is if we care about the unbelieving souls out there.
With love in Christ, Daniel
This type of talk shows a great ignorance of scripture.
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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Eden
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posted
WildB presented an old "pre-trib rapture statement", which was quote:
All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins.
-Pseudo-Ephraem (c. 374-627)
Lived from 374-627 A.D.? Well, that is quite a spread. But even if it was the case that between 374-627 A.D. this one teacher thought that the Lord meant a "pre-trib rapture" by the wording in the New Testament, then my response is that already by 374-627 A.D. they were sorely confused, as they still are in these days.
But to each his own. In the end, the Lord Jesus will gather whom He must gather:
John 6:39
For this is the Father's will who has sent Me, that of all whom He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
John 6:12
When they were filled, He said to His disciples, Gather up the fragments which remain, that nothing be lost.
To repeat what WildB presented from a "pseudo-Ephraim" document dating from 374-627 A.D.: quote:
All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins.
-Pseudo-Ephraem (c. 374-627)
Pre-trib, mid-trib, end-trib....it does not really matter...you know why? Because Jesus said He would "gather up the pieces that remain" and that "none should be lost" of those who "remain" or "were not picked up BY US" with our preaching and "fishing for men":
Mark 1:17
And Jesus said to them, Come after Me, and I will make you to become fishers of men.
Jeremiah 16:16
Behold, I will send for many fishers, says the LORD, and they shall fish them; and after that will I send for many hunters, and they shall hunt them from every mountain, and from every hill, and out of the holes of the rocks.
Is Dick Cheney among them? ![[happyhappy]](graemlins/happyhappy.gif) ![[angel3]](graemlins/angel3.gif)
love, Eden
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oneinchrist
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posted
Hi Kindgo,
I see you are referencing Revelation Chp.14 beginning with vs 17, which is, as you say, "reaping the grapes of wrath".......but, if you go back to vs. 14-16 you will notice it is about "reaping the earths harvest."
If you would not mind , I would like for you to see a very interesting contrast between the two following verses.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe.
Do you notice the contrast already? Lets focus on these parts of the above verses for a moment ....
15 crying with a loud voice to Him
18 cried with a loud cry to him
The word Him is capitalized in the stance above and the word him is not capitalized in the stance below.
I do not know about you, but it surely seems to suggest that Jesus is the One with the sickle gathering His own, and in the latter an angel is depicted as gathering the grapes of wrath.
This sounds to me much more like a rapture event than Revelation Chapter 4 does. But maybe thats just me.
What are your thoughts?
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Kindgo
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posted
Hi Daniel,
In Revelation 4:1, the 'CHURCH' is caught up to God but in the middle of the Tribulation, the 144,000 are CAUGHT UP to God.
And at the END of the Tribulation (Revelation 14) it talks about
...the GRAPES OF WRATH. Take your sickle and go to the ...vineyard that's NOW RIPE and cut the grapes and throw the
...grapes into the winepress of MY WRATH!! That is the LAST
...PART of the Tribulation period where the CRUSHING takes
...place and the winepress comes out to the city of Jerusalem
...and blood is to the horses bridle.
You see, when you understand the law of harvest, it clears up this WHOLE thing.
Is the Church going UP before the Tribulation, in the middle...at the end?
God has NOT appointed us to wrath but to obtain salvation through His Son.
That's what He said.
...He said, 'Pray that you be accounted worthy to escape these things and stand before the Son of Man.'
He said, 'Because you've kept the Word of My patience, I'll keep you from the hour of testing which is coming for ALL THE EARTH.'
He's NOT appointed us to the grape wrath!!!"
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
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oneinchrist
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Hi Betty,
I do not agree that Revelation chapter 4 describes the rapture event. It describes a personal experience of Johns just prior to receiving more revelation from God. I believe that there are some verses later on in the book of Revelation that could more accurately describe a rapture event.........the rapture is the time of ripe harvest.
With the love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Betty Louise
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posted
I have a notebook of a study we did in Washington a couple of years ago with verses from the Old Testament that supports a pre-trib rapture, but I have got to find it from our move. I will try to find it and come back here.
Also, I believe the Bible supports the anti-Christ being of Roman descent. I believe the devil will copy God in having a trio, like the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. I believe the Pope will be used by the anti-Christ as the Relgious leader of the One World Relgion.
thanks.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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oneinchrist
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No Betty I do not believe the catholic church is anti-christ. Like I stated, I believe the Pope AKA "the Holy See" is an anti-christ. There is no doubt about it. Did I not provide you with enough support for that belief?
Should I also tell you about the lying signs and wonders? the apparitions? the messages from Mary to the world? One of those messages just happens to be "Listen to the pope!".........unbelievable!
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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oneinchrist
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Hi Betty,
Please tell me what verse or verses in Matthew 24 and what verse or verses in Revelation support a pre-tribulation rapture. I see plenty of support for a pre-wrath.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Betty Louise
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There is actually nothing that has to be done before the rapture to happen. Everything that had to be done has been done. I believe the Bible teaches a pre-trib. This does not mean we will not have problems, but life's problems pale in comparison to the tribulation.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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The Beauty of Holiness777
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I don't beleive the Rapture will take place before the Great Tribulation period, but sometimes during the tribulation period. There are things that still have to take place before all this begins. If you stop and look around many are going through tribulations now but there is going to be a Great Tribulation, such as the world has ever seen or will see again.
This is the tribulation that will build up the Armagedden. God's elect will not go through the whole tribulation period, before it really gets rough; and God's wrath really starts to pour out He will take the saints up in the rapture.
Those who become saved during the Great Tribulation period will also be spared God's Wrath. (Revelation 9:4) Even though some will be put do death for accepting the faith.
The two witnesses that God will send to prophesy for one thousand two hundred and sixty days I am pretty sure some souls will be saved through their preaching. Through them God will be still trying to reach souls one last time.
There is no way the Great Tribultation period has come and gone, for there are two many times that has yet to take place. Some tribulations has come and gone that people in this world may have experiened, but not "The Great Tribulation."
This world has a destiny with the Almighty God and it is closer than some people may think.
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In God I'am Complete.
I am a "Spiritual Being" living in a physical body.
{Prayer - a force that reaches people and places when we can't}
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Betty Louise
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posted
Are you a member of the SDA Church? I ask this because they believe the Catholic Church is the anti-Christ. I do not believe it by the way.
I believe the Pope after the rapture could be the prophet for the anti-Christ but not the anti-Christ.
Obviously who ever Pope is after the rapture is not a Christian.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Posts: 5051 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008
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oneinchrist
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Not only do I believe that the time of great tribulation may have begun long ago, but I do believe that we may be getting a glimpse of who the trusted leader (anti-christ) is going to be. I believe that the Pope is going to be the trusted political and religious leader for the peaceful co-existence of the 3 world religions....Christian, Muslim , and Jews. If you have ever had a chance to read some of the Vatican officials U.N. Documents you would discover that they have a plan to secure peace in Israel. The fact is that the Vatican has already had an ever increasing presence in Jerusalem over the years. They have much sentimental interest in Jerusalem and evidently the prime minister of Israel doesnt mind selling them large pieces of land.....hmmmmmm
Let me cut to the chase. The Pope is anti-christ. He is one of many, but he just happens to be the most influential in the world. Anyone who allows themselves to be called Holy, anyone who allows others to give them the reverence that should only be given to God, anyone that gives themselves the honor of High priesthood after the order of Melchisidek, anyone that changes doctrine to make Mary the Mother of God and Mediatrix to Jesus.......is opposed to God and exalts himself above all measure.
Every day more and more people are being deceived by this world leader, but there will come the day when the High Priest that is not of this world will end it all giving glory to His Father.
Why would it surprise anyone that the most deceptive leader of the world would happen to come from the richest religion? .... a leader who is willing to compromise the truth to appease the masses. What so many are waiting for I think may have begun long ago. But thats just me.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Betty Louise
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posted
If you do a detail study of the Tribulation, you will see that it has not happen. There are too many things that have not taken place yet.
Yes, there will be chaos after the rapture, but the anti-Christ will have the people convinced that the rapture happened in order to usher in a new age. He will promise Heaven on earth. People will be desperate for hope and things to be more normal. I remember years ago a so called prophet came to Houston and preformed a mass wedding in the dome. Thousands and thousands of couple were married in one ceremony. Just think of thousands who would line up to be married by the man they are convinced is the "savior" of the world.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Posts: 5051 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008
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oneinchrist
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posted
Hi Kindgo,
Thank you for the response. Here is the scoop. I agree with you that there will be opportunity for repentance during the great tribulation....."Who are these arrayed in white robes? ......the ones who have come out of the great tribulation"......but I see no indication of repentance after the pouring out of the vials of Gods wrath.
I think the only difference we may have then is where we believe the time of great tribulation fits in. I believe it comes before the rapture........I think you believe that it comes after the rapture.
Hey Kindgo, one thing I would like to point out about Jesus making reference to His coming. Not only does He say that there will be time of great tribulation, but He also states that it will be as in the days of Noah.......so I dont know about the view that people have that the entire earth is going to be in chaos and in an uproar during tribulation time. It appears there will be people getting married, going to ball-games, and swinging in hammocks on the ocean breeze. It is the time of wrath that the whole earth will be in misery because of Gods anger pouring out.
All in all, I believe the Great trib could have begun long ago and that we may very well be in the days well into the "falling away" and into time of great deception.......thats just me though.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
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posted
THE REDEEMED OF THE TRIBULATION
By the time of the fifth seal a number of true believers will have been martyred. In other words, during the first years of the Tribulation there will be a true witness to the Gospel, and this will be opposed by the ecumenical church, which will be “drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus” (17:6). In the name of religion, the "organized church" of the first part of the Tribulation will kill true believers for their faith.
How will these true believers have been converted in the first place? With the Rapture of the church, all Christians will have been removed from earth, so that none will be alive immediately after the Rapture. If there are to be martyrs, there must first be believers. How will men be saved? In Revelation 7:1-8, we are introduced to a sort of parenthesis in judgment. Even the wind does not blow. (Incidentally, can you imagine the effect on climate of the cessation of the wind even for a short time? Add the disturbance in the topography of the earth, with the shifting of islands and mountains, and you can begin to grasp the increased chaos during these early years of the Tribulation.)
The purpose of this suspension of judgment is that a certain group of people may be “sealed” (v. 3). These people are called “the bond-servants of our God.” Who they are is described in detail in verses 4-8. They are Jews from each of the twelve tribes, and they do some particular service for God. Whether the seal placed on them is a visible mark or characteristic of some kind is neither stated nor implied in the text. A seal need not be visible to be real (Eph. 4:30). It is principally a guarantee of ownership and security. Both these ideas are involved in the sealing of this group. These people are owned by God, which means that they are redeemed. They are kept secure by God, which may mean He protects them from their enemies on earth while they complete their service for Him.
But how were these people saved? Even though there will be no Christians on earth immediately after the Rapture, there will be Bibles, and books about the Christian faith. In other words, information will be available to give men the facts on which to find saving faith.
What will be the important work for which God will protect these people supernaturally? Actually, this passage does not specify, but we have hints as to the answer in Revelation 14, where the same group is described as in heaven after their work has been completed. They are said to be the redeemed followers of the Lamb, which may indicate that they are a group of special witnesses to the Gospel in the Tribulation days. They will not be the only ones witnessing, but they will be the only group given special protection from their enemies.
The first judgments of the Tribulation, and the religious situation in the first part of that period, are repeated, in summary form, in the Lord’s Olivet discourse (Matt. 24). Verses 4-14 cover the events of the first half of the Tribulation, for at verse 15 we read about an event that occurs exactly halfway through the seven-year period. Notice how the seal judgments are summarized: “And you will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars . . . for nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines, and earthquakes” (vv. 6-7). Notice the reference to the martyrs of the fifth seal: “Then will they deliver you up to tribulation and will kill you” (v. 9). Look at the false religion: “And many false prophets will rise and will mislead many” (v. 11). The ministry of the 144,000 sealed ones, and other witnesses, will account for the fact that “this Gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a witness to all the nations” (v. 14). Here are all the major events of the first half of the Tribulation, in capsule form, from Christ’s lips before the Crucifixion.
(Basic Theology)
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The Beauty of Holiness777
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Daniel I think you might find the answer to that in Revelation 7:9-14 and Revelation 11:3.
Even though the Tribulation Period will be a horrble time there will be people saved even though some will be put to death for their faith.
God will even send two witnesses during this time some say the two will be Moses and Elijah I don't know scripture doesn't really say who they will be.
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In God I'am Complete.
I am a "Spiritual Being" living in a physical body.
{Prayer - a force that reaches people and places when we can't}
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Kindgo
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Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
The purpose of the two witnesses is to preach the gospel to all the world during the Tribulation. The fact that the Lord has seen fit to send these two men to accomplish this further clarifies that there is the opportunity for repentance and salvation during the Tribulation.
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
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Betty Louise
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"After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree. Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried out with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, saying, "Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.
And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed." (Revelation 7:1-4)
These people will be preaching to the world while most will reject their message we have no reason to believe that no on will get saved.
So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His Temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes." (Revelation 7:9-17)
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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oneinchrist
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Hi Kingdo,
I do not see where you get from scripture that there will be repentance during the time of wrath. In Revelation chapter 15 begins the pouring out of the vials full of the wrath of God. In the midst of this time after the fourth angel pours out his vial it states in Chapter 16 vs. 9 ..........
And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the Name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they REPENTED NOT to give him glory.
Kindgo, where do you see scriptural support for the claim that there will be repentance after Gods wrath begins?
With love in Christ, Daniel
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Betty Louise
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The Beauty of Holiness777 ,
Thank you for your kind words. We are indeed living in the last days. In so many ways it is nerve wrecking, but we can find peace in Jesus.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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The Beauty of Holiness777
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AMEN AND AMEN! Excellent replies Kindgo, Daniel and Betty. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) The Tribulation period will be a time of wrath the world as never seen or experience before. ![[Frown]](frown.gif) That's why we are to witness "Now is the time for Salvation.
2 Corinthians 6:2
(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of Salvation have I succoured thee:(helped you in your time of trouble)
behold, now is the acceptable time) behold now is the day of Salvation.)
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In God I'am Complete.
I am a "Spiritual Being" living in a physical body.
{Prayer - a force that reaches people and places when we can't}
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Betty Louise
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Kindgo,
You are so right. Just the diferent bowls of wrath will kill so many people and this is not counting the riots that will break out during this time.
After the Hurricane here in Houston, areas that could only be gotten to by boat because of roads being out, people drove boats to and took from people who had their homes destroyed by the hurricane. I am talking about homes where the walls and doors and windows were down, people were loading up their boats with stuff. The police had to patrol the placed day and night.
Just think of the panic when millions of people and children disappear. People will be breaking into houses thinking they will be empty and they will either murder those who did not get taken in the rapture in these homes or get killed themselves. Believing in the pretrib rapture has
never been a license to wait for salvation. If a person can't force themselves to put aside pride now when we are in no physical danger for expressing our faith, how will they be able to stand up for Jesus when you cannot buy or sell without the mark of the beast.
The Bible says there will come a STRONG delusion on the people where they will accept the anti-Christ. Many believe that those who know the truth but reject it will be those of the many who will be effected by this delusion.
Pre-Trib believe is not a license to put off your salvation, but a strong reason to get saved so when the trumped sounds, you will NOT be left behind.
To believe that the pre-Trib believe is responsible for people not being saved could NOT BE MORE WRONG. People who know the truth reject salvation, because of pride and self will.
You could say that the Bible saying that 7 years after the ant-Christ signs the treaty with Israel, the Second Coming will happen, is a cause not to be saved. But this would be wrong. No one has the promise they will live long enough to get saved, nor do can they know for sure they will not be over come by the delusion.
At the rapture many will that day, die from traffic wrecks, airplane crashed and other accidents.
Today is the day of salvation and the pre-Trib belief which is Scriptural by the way does not diminish that in any way.
We do not need to spend so much time denying something that is true and instead spend more time praying for the lost that less will be left behind.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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Kindgo
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Reality dictates that after the rapture, people will be left behind because of their own unbelief, procrastination, or pride.
The point is not to reassure people that they can wait to believe in the Lord until after the Rapture happens.
It is simply a look at what the scriptures have to say about salvation during the Tribulation.
Those people 'lucky enough' to actually live through that time of wrath will have the opportunity to repent, but they also need to know that they will likely be martyred for their faith. It will be a long, hard road.
The foundation of our relationship with the Lord is faith, not proof... Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seenï (Hebrews 11:1).
The Lord asks us to have faith in Him, and to trust Him by faith alone. It is my belief that, by rapturing the church as He said He would, God is making one last attempt to prove His deity to those who resisted.
God's purpose is ALWAYS redemption
While He IS removing the church to protect them from His wrath, He is also reaching out to a lost and dying world.
As described by Jesus in the book of Matthew, the Tribulation will be a time that has never been seen by this world and never will be seen again (24:21).
The rapture, in itself, will be a major calamity unlike anything the world has ever seen. There is no guarantee that those who are unsaved at the time of that great event will live through it long enough to repent!
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
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oneinchrist
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The cost of trusting in the pre-trib belief could be the cost of many souls who procrastinate and think that God is going to give them yet another chance to repent and be saved.
If the rapture is immediately followed by the time of Gods wrath(where unbelievers are prepared for the devil) there is no such time. We need to consider that implication for it is a serious one.......that is if we care about the unbelieving souls out there.
With love in Christ, Daniel
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WildB
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Examining an Ancient Pre-Trib Rapture Statement
by Thomas Ice
All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins.
-Pseudo-Ephraem (c. 374-627)
Critics of pretribulationism sometimes state that belief in the rapture is a doctrinal development of recent origin. They argue that the doctrine of the rapture or any semblance of it was completely unknown before the early 1800s and the writings of John Nelson Darby. One of the most vocal and sensational critics of the rapture is Dave MacPherson, who argues that, "during the first 18 centuries of the Christian era, believers were never 'Rapture separaters' [sic]; they never separated the minor Rapture aspect of the Second Coming of Christ from the Second Coming itself."1
A second critic, John Bray, also vehemently opposes a pretribulational rapture, writing, "this teaching is not a RECOVERY of truth once taught and then neglected. No, it never was taught-for 1800 years nearly no one knew anything about such a scheme."2 More recently, pre-trib opponent Robert Van Kampen proclaimed, "The pretribulational rapture position with its dual parousias was unheard of in church history prior to 1830."3 In our previous issue of Pre-Trib Perspectives, I noted that pre-wrath advocate Marvin Rosenthal has also joined the chorus.4
Christian reconstructionists have also consistently and almost universally condemned premillennialism and pretribulationism, favoring instead, postmillen-nialism. One sample of their prolific and often vitri-olic opposition can be seen in Gary North's derisive description of the rapture as "the Church's hoped-for Escape Hatch on the world's sinking ship," which he, like MacPherson, believes was invented in 1830.5
How to Find the Rapture in History
Is pretribulationism as theologically bankrupt as its critics profess, or are there answers to these charges? If there are reasonable answers, then the burden of proof and historical argumentation shifts back to the critics. Rapture critics must acknowledge and interact with the historical and theological evidence.
Rapture critic William Bell has formulated three criteria for establishing the validity of a historical citation regarding the rapture. If any of his three criteria are met, then he acknowledges it is "of crucial importance, if found, whether by direct statement or clear inference." As will be seen, the Pseudo-Ephraem sermon meets not one, but two of his canons, namely, "Any mention that Christ's second coming was to consist of more than one phase, separated by an interval of years," and "any mention that Christ was to remove the church from the earth before the tribulation period."6
Pseudo-Ephraem's Rapture Statement
I vividly remember the phone call at my office late one afternoon from Canadian prophecy teacher and writer Grant Jeffrey.7 He told me that he had found an ancient pre-trib rapture statement. I said, "Let's hear it." He read the following to me over the phone:
All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins.
I said that it sure sounds like a pre-trib statement and began to fire at him all the questions I have since received many times when telling others about the statement from Pseudo-Ephraem's sermon On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World.8 Grant's phone call started me on journey through many of the substantial libraries throughout the Washington, D.C. area in an effort to learn all I could about this historically significant statement. The more information I acquired led me to conclude that Grant is right to conclude that this is a pre-trib rapture statement of antiquity.
Who is Pseudo-Ephraem?
The word "Pseudo" (Greek for false) is a prefix attached by scholars to the name of a famous historical person or book of the Bible when one writes using that name. Pseudo-Ephraem claims that his sermon was written by Ephraem of Nisibis (306-73), considered to be the greatest figure in the history of the Syrian church. He was well-known for his poetics, rejection of rationalism, and confrontations with the heresies of Marcion, Mani, and the Arians. As a poet, exegete, and theologian, his style was similar to that of the Jewish midrashic and targumic traditions and he favored a contemplative approach to spirituality. So popular were his works that in the fifth and sixth centuries he was adopted by several Christian communities as a spiritual father and role model. His many works, some of doubtful authenticity, were soon translated from Syriac into Greek, Armenian, and Latin.
It is not at all unreasonable to expect that a prolific and prominent figure such as Ephraem would have writings ascribed to him. While there is little support for Ephraem as the author of the Sermon on the End of the World, Caspari and Alexander have demonstrated that Pseudo-Ephraem was "heavily influenced by the genuine works of Ephraem."9 What is more difficult, though secondary to the main purpose of this article, is determining the exact date, purpose, location of, and extent of subsequent editorial changes to the sermon.10
Suggestions on the date of the writing of the original sermon range from as early as Wilhelm Bousset's 373 date,11 to Caspari's estimation of sometime between 565 and 627.12 Paul Alexander, after reviewing all the argumentation, favors a date for the final form similar to that suggested by Caspari,13 but Alexander also states simply, "It will indeed not be easy to decide on the matter."14 All are clear that it had to have been written before the advent of Islam.
Pseudo-Ephraem's Sermon
The sermon consists of just under 1500 words, divided into ten sections and has been preserved in four Latin manuscripts. Three of these date from the eighth century and ascribe the sermon to Ephraem. A fourth manuscript from the ninth century, claims not Ephraem, but Isidore of Seville (d. 636) as author.15 Additionally, there are subsequent Greek and Syriac versions of the sermon which have raised questions regarding the language of the original manuscript. On the basis of lexical analysis and study of the biblical citations within the sermon with Latin, Greek, and Syriac versions of the Bible, Alexander believed it most probable that the homily was composed in Syriac, translated first into Greek, and then into Latin from the Greek.16 Regardless of the original language, the vocabulary and style of the extant copies are consistent with the writings of Ephraem and his era. It appears likely that the sermon was written near the time of Ephraem and underwent slight change during subsequent coping.
What is most significant for present-day readers is the fact that the sermon was popular enough to be translated into several languages fairly soon after its composition. The significance of the sermon for us today is that it represents a prophetic view of a pre-trib rapture within the orthodox circles of its day.
The sermon is built around the three themes of the title On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World and proceeds chronologically. The fact that the pre-trib statement occurs in section 2, while the antichrist and tribulation are developed throughout the middle sections, followed by Christ's second coming to the earth in the final section supports a pre-trib sequence. This characteristic of the sermon fits the first criteria outlined by William Bell, namely "that Christ's second coming was to consist of more than one phase, separated by an interval of years." Thus, phase one is the rapture statement from section 2; the interval of 3 1/2 years, 42 months, and 1,260 days, said to be the tribulation in sections 7 and 8; the second phase of Christ's return is noted in section 10 and said to take place "when the three and a half years have been completed."17
Why Pseudo-Ephraem's Statement is Pretribulational
After learning of Pseudo-Ephraem's rapture statement, I shared it with a number of colleagues. My favorite approach was to simply read the statement, free of any introductory remarks, and ask what they thought. Every person, whether pre-trib or not, concluded that it was some kind of pre-trib statement. A few thought it was a statement from such pre-trib proponents like John Walvoord or Charles Ryrie. Most noted the clear statement concerning the removal of believers before the tribulation as a reason for thinking the statement pre-trib. This is Bell's second criteria for identifying a pre-trib statement from the past, namely, "any mention that Christ was to remove the church from the earth before the tribulation period." Note the following reasons why this should be taken as a pre-trib statement:
1) Section 2 of the sermon begins with a statement about imminency: "We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent [Latin "immineat"] or overhanging."18 This is similar to the modern pre-trib view of imminency and considering the subsequent rapture statements supports a pre-trib scenario.
2) As I break down the rapture statement, notice the following observations:
"All the saints and elect of God are gathered . . ." Gathered where? A later clause says they "are taken to the Lord." Where is the Lord? Earlier in the paragraph the sermon speaks of "the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion. . ." Thus the movement is from the earth toward the Lord who is apparently in heaven. Once again, in conformity to a translation scenario found in the pre-trib teaching.
The next phrase says that the gathering takes place "prior to the tribulation that is to come. . ." so we see that the event is pretribulational and the tribulation is future to the time in which Pseudo-Ephraem wrote.
The purpose for the gathering was so that they would not "see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of their sins." Here we have the purpose of the tribulation judgments stated and that was to be a time of judgment upon the world because of their sin, thus, the church was to be taken out.
3) Finally, the Byzantine scholar Paul Alexander clearly believed that Pseudo-Ephraem was teaching what we call today a pre-trib rapture. According to Alexander, most Byzantine apocalypses were concerned with how Christians would survive the time of severe persecution by Antichrist. The normal approach given by other apocalyptic texts was a shortening of the time to three and a half years, enabling the survival of some Christians.19 Unlike those texts, this sermon has Christians being removed from the time of tribulation. Alexander observed:
It is probably no accident that Pseudo-Ephraem does not mention the shortening of the time intervals for the Antichrist's persecution, for if prior to it the Elect are 'taken to the Lord,' i.e., participate at least in some measure in beatitude, there is no need for further mitigating action on their behalf. The Gathering of the Elect according to Pseudo-Ephraem is an alternative to the shortening of the time intervals.20
Conclusion
Regardless of what else the writer of this sermon believed, he did believe that all believers would be removed before the tribulation-a pre-trib rapture view. Thus, we have seen that those who have said that there was no one before 1830 who taught the pre-trib rapture position will have to revise their statements by well over 1,000 years. This statement does not prove the pre-trib position, only the Bible can do that, but it should change many people's historical views on the matter.
ENDNOTES
1 Dave MacPherson, The Great Rapture Hoax (Fletcher, NC: New Puritan Library, 1983), 15. For a refutation of MacPherson's charges see Thomas D. Ice, "Why the Doctrine of the Pretribulational Rapture Did Not Begin with Margaret Macdonald," Bibliotheca Sacra 147 (1990): 155-68.
2 John L. Bray, The Origin of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture Teaching (Lakeland, FL.: John L. Bray Ministry, 1982), 31-32.
3 Robert Van Kampen, The Sign (Wheaton, IL.: Crossway Books, 1992), 445.
4 Thomas Ice, "Is The Pre-Trib Rapture A Satanic Deception?" Pre-Trib Perspectives (II:1; March 1995):1-3.
5 Gary North, Rapture Fever: Why Dispensationalism is Paralyzed (Tyler, TX.: Institute for Christian Economics, 1993), 105.
6 William E. Bell, "A Critical Evaluation of the Pretribulation Rapture Doctrine in Christian Eschatology" (Ph.D. diss., New York University, 1967), 26-27.
7 For more information on the Pseudo-Ephraem statement see Grant R. Jeffrey, Final Warning (Toronto: Frontier Research Publications, 1995). Forthcoming, Timothy Demy and Thomas Ice, "The Rapture and an Early Medieval Citation" Bibliotheca Sacra 152 (July 1995): 300-11. Grant R. Jeffrey, "A Pretribulational Rapture Statement in the Early Medieval Church" in Thomas Ice and Timothy Demy, ed., When the Trumpet Sounds: Today's Foremost Authorities Speak Out on End-Time Controversies (Eugene, Or: Harvest House, 1995).
8 Grant Jeffrey found the statement in Paul J. Alexander, The Byzantine Apocalyptic Tradition, by (Berkeley: University of California Press, 1985), 2.10. The late Alexander found the sermon in C. P. Caspari, ed. Briefe, Abhandlungen und Predigten aus den zwei letzten Jahrhunderten des kirchlichen Altertums und dem Anfang des Mittelaters, (Christiania, 1890), 208-20. This German work also contains Caspari's commentary on the sermon on pages 429-72.
9 Paul J. Alexander, "The Diffusion of Byzantine Apocalypses in the Medieval West and the Beginnings of Joachimism," in Prophecy and Millenarianism: Essays in Honour of Marjorie Reeves, ed. Ann Williams (Essex, U.K. : Longman, 1980), 59.
10 Paul J. Alexander, "Medieval Apocalypses as Historical Sources," American Historical Review 73 (1968): 1017. In this essay Alexander addresses in-depth the historical difficulties facing the interpreter of such texts. To these difficulties, issues of theological interpretation and concern must also be added.
11 W. Bousset, The Antichrist Legend, trans. A. H. Keane (London: Hutchinson and Co., 1896), 33-41. An early date is also accepted by Andrew R. Anderson, Alexander's Gate: Gog and Magog and the Enclosed Nations. Monographs of the Mediaeval Academy of America, no. 5. (Cambridge, MA.: Mediaeval Academy of America, 1932):16-18.
12 Caspari, 437-42.
13 Alexander, Byzantine Apocalyptic Tradition, 147. This leaves the possibility that the work may have been altered or revised prior to the date of the extant manuscripts.
14 Ibid., 145. Earlier, he writes: "All that is certain, is as Caspari pointed out, that it must have been written prior to Heraclius' victories over Sassanid Persia, for the author talks repeatedly of wars between Rome and Persia and such discussions do not make sense after Heraclius' victories and the beginning of the Arab invasions" (144).
15 Ibid., 136-37. The only critical edition is Caspari's which suffers a lack of objectivity in that he relied upon only two of the four extant manuscripts.
16 Ibid., 140-44.
17 Caspari, 219. English citations are taken from a translation of the sermon provided by Cameron Rhoades, instructor of Latin at Tyndale Theological Seminary, Ft. Worth, TX.
18 Ibid., 210.
19 Alexander, 209.
20 Ibid., 210-11.
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That is all.....
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