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Topic: Pre-Tribulation THE TRUTH!!!!
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Eden
unregistered
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posted
oneinchrist wrote to Eden quote:
...I am emphasizing more from the unbeliever standpoint, not the believers......that may be why you are confused. Of course I would agree that it does not matter for the christian what end-time view they have. When we preach to the unbelieving audiences, and many do just that...
I think that MOST are preaching to church audience that already are believers, no? quote:
...if they preach the pre-trib scenario the unbeliever could easily have the tendency to think that the "Great trib" time period as described by them, would be, yes, a terrible time , but nevertheless a time where they could repent and still turn to Christ....but if it's not true then after the "rapture" we go straight into the period of God pouring out His wrath there is no more time given to repent...
Good point. But let me add that I'm personally not a pre-trib proponent, and I do therefore not necessarily believe that the so-called "great tribulation" lasts only 7 years, or what the "great tribulation" accurately refers to:
Matthew 24
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time[/b], no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Note in v.21 that Jesus was talking in Judah to His audience, so that when Jesus said "21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time", Jesus is referring to His time, the 1st century A.D.
And certainly we know from Josephus and other sources that the time from Jesus's death to the destruction of Jerusalem was a turbulent time, with sicarii and murderers and with many lowlives running around.
And when over 1 million Jews and Diaspora folks died in Jerusalem in Titus's siege, there was indeed no such time in Judah since the beginning until "this time". Even the 600-586 B.C. Babylonian conflagration was apparently not as bad as the 70 A.D. one.
Or, it could be argued that the 6 million Jews dying in the diaspora during World War II was the "great tribulation" such as had not been since the beginning of the foundation of Israel "until that time".
Howbeit, I tend to think that whatever happened to Israel is a micro-picture (a play, if you will) of what will happen to the world on a macro-scale.
As in Israel, it got really turbulent in Judah and Galilee from 30 A.D. to 70 A.D. and probably until 86 A.D. (the 8 unused weeks of Daniel 9) as all the stones were thrown down and the remnant of the Jews were sold as slaves into the nations.
So that a similar period of tribulation must play itself out in these last days of the world, probably with a starting point of 1967 when Jerusalem was no longer trodden down of the Gentiles, which only leaves one period still to be completed, the time of the end:
Daniel 12:9
And he said, Go your way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
So since 8 weeks still remain unusued of the 70 weeks of Daniel since 1967, I think the entire period from 1967 to 2023 will be a period of turmoil, fear, and great tribulation:
Luke 21:35
For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
Mark 13:8
For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows.
The "7-year" "great tribulation" view is tied up lock stock & barrel with the 7-year pretrib rapture" view, and is derived from the assumption that 69 weeks (or 493 years) have already been used up.
But the Bible clearly says in Daniel 9:26 that Jesus was cut off (died) after 62 weeks and not after 69 weeks, so that should mean that there are 8 weeks left of the 70 weeks, which would be the period of "tribulation culminating into great tribulation", just as happen in the micro-scale with Israel.
oneinchrist, you further said quote:
...I personally believe that christians can be held accountable for this just because of the effect it can have on the unbelievers.
I don't think that Christians will be held accountable for teaching what an individual or group of Christians currently is the correct interpretation of Scripture.
God knows that it is ultimately UP TO HIM to collect all His sheep into His fold. We are just "helping Him" by helping to preach the good news as we currently perceive it to be.
John 6:39
And this is the Father's will who has sent Me, that of all who He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Ultimately I think we Christians will find that we helped God about as much as a 2-year old child asking daddy if he can drive the car and then daddy puts him behind the wheel and the 2-year turns the wheel and makes engine sounds with his lips, but that was about the extent of his "driving".
love, Eden
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oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532
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posted
Good morning Eden,
I am emphasizing more from the unbeliever stand-point, not the believers......that may be why you are confused. Of course I would agree that it does not matter for the christian what end-time view they have. When we preach to the unbelieving audiences, and many do just that, if they preach the pre-trib scenario the unbeliever could easily have the tendency to think that the "Great trib" time period as described by them, would be,yes, a terrible time , but nevertheless a time where they could repent and still turn to Christ............but if its not true then after the "rapture" we go straight into the period of God pouring out His wrath there is no more time given to repent.......refer to Revelation Chapter 14.
I guess that is what I am trying to say. I hope I am clear on that. I personally believe that christians can be held accountable for this just because of the effect it can have on the unbelievers.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Eden
unregistered
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posted
Hi, oneinchrist, you wrote to Kindgo quote:
Another perspective on the pre-trib interpretation is this........if someone tells you there will be another boat coming if you miss the first one, then you may procrastinate and put off your preparations. But what happens if another boat never comes along? Then you just have been lied to and you may pay a very high price for your procrastination.
In a flood, no second boat could be disastrous, but since in fact you are referring to the consequences of believing in a "pre-trib rapture", I don't think it will have such DIRE consequences as we like to assert.
What? They are still Christians and will be taken at the rapture even if the rapture occurs during the same event as the second coming of Jesus.
The notion that believing in the "pre-trib" rapture will somehow have "dire consequences", I don't really see what they could be, but perhaps you would like to enumerate a few of them for me?
love, Eden
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oneinchrist
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Member # 6532
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posted
Hi Kindgo,
I will agree with you that the "rapture" and the "second coming" are separate events in the sense that the "harvest time" time and the time that Jesus comes to the earth to take out the false prophet and establish His "Millenial kingdom" on earth are separate events.
According to Revelation these two events seem to be separated by a time of God pouring out His wrath on the unbelievers, hardening their hearts further, and preparing them for the devil. I do not see any indication that in this time period men are able to turn to God. It even states that they do not repent.
I still do not agree though, that the Great tribulation comes after the "rapture". In fact the thought of that scenario even seems kinda strange. Think about it for a moment. Half of your family disappears, OK now you suddenly believe in God, heaven, and Hell. You surely are not going to bow down to a man now cause you have been convinced, without a doubt, that there is a God. If you have to be martyed it wont be so bad cause you are sure there is an after-life with Jesus. Where is the faith in that?
Another perspective on the pre-trib interpretation is this........if someone tells you there will be another boat coming if you miss the first one, then you may procrastinate and put off your preparations. But what happens if another boat never comes along? Then you just have been lied to and you may pay a very high price for your procrastination.
We need to be careful with certain things that we are not all that sure about. I am sure that much of the world believes that God will continue and continue to give 2nd chances, but we know the truth that now is the time, today is the day, for no one is guaranteed to live another day.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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WildB
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Member # 2917
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posted
Question: Would you please explain Revelation 3:10. Different teachers base their different views of the scheduling of the rapture in relation to the tribulation on that verse. They can't all be right. What does the verse really say?
Answer: You are right. Equally devout students of the prophetic Scriptures differ as to the time of the rapture in relation to the tribulation. But a couple of very important clues are given to us in Revelation 3:10 that must not be ignored.
In Revelation 3:10 the Lord says: "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." The Lord promises to keep those whom He addresses "from the hour of temptation."
Post-tribulationists believe that means that the Lord will keep believers safe during that period. Christ will provide Divine protection so that the Church will be able to go through it and not perish. Their view implies that the Lord will keep believers in that time period. Pre-tribulationists, on the other hand, believe it means that the Lord will keep believers out of that period.
The hour of temptation will affect a particular group. It will try "them that dwell upon the earth." What group is being referred to? The phrase "them that dwell upon the earth" appears 11 times in the Book of Revelation and nowhere else in the Scripture. How is the phrase used in the Book of Revelation? It refers to non-believers.
For example, in Revelation 13, verses 8 and 12 those words refer to those who worship the beast and are not in the Lamb's book of life. Revelation 13:8 is quite plain: "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him [speaking with reference to the first beast], whose names are not written in the book of life." Revelation 11:10 uses that phrase in the same way. Those who dwell upon the earth are tormented by the two prophets. Once again, that cannot refer to believers.
Also, take note of the phrase "the hour of temptation." This refers to a period of time. The Lord promises to keep those so addressed from that period of time known as "the hour of temptation."
Post-tribulationists argue that the promise is merely that the Lord will keep those so addressed from some of the events that occur during that period of time, but the words of the verse do not support that view. Christ promises to keep His Church FROM that PERIOD of time.
The special preservation promised is in relation to a specific, well-known hour of trial, the future seven-year tribulation, which will precede Christ's return. The verse tells us that the Lord will not keep the Church through this hour, but that He will keep it out of this time of difficulty. Only a rapture away from the earth can accomplish this.
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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oneinchrist
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Member # 6532
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posted
Perhaps a pre-wrath rapture is the more likely scenario based on Matthew 24 and Revelation chapter 14-15???? Its just that one would have to consider that "the church" is not always referred to as the church and that the "catching away" is not always called the catching away. The book of Revelation, for that matter, also describes Jesus in many ways but we know that does not mean that there are several Jesus', only 1.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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oneinchrist
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Member # 6532
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posted
Hi Kingdo,
Would you please consider a few things that I would like to present about this issue.....and if you have the time....could you give me your thoughts on them?
1. If in Matthew 24:21 Jesus speaks of a time of "Great tribulation" such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, nor ever shall be that precedes His coming, whereby the "elect" are gathered from the 4 winds(vs. 31), then what makes you so sure that, by a private interpretation of Revelation, that the "Great trib" follows after the coming of Jesus..... Or do you propose that there is an another Great trib.(such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, nor ever shall be) that Jesus didnt mention?
2. Why would you be more apt to link the rapture with Revelation chapter 4 , than to link it with the event of Jesus Coming in Chapter 19? It seems to me, that even considering the absence of vocabulary referring to the "catching up" (rapture) in Chapter 19, that it would still make more sense that one would link the rapture with the dramatic Jesus event in Revelation 19 before linking it to Johns personal experience in Rev. 4, which is a far stretch probably by most taught bible study methods. Actually,now that I think about it, if you were to ask me my opinion on what I thought may describe the "rapture" event in Revelation it would have to be in Revelation Chapter 14 ....And He that sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped......reap for the harvest of the earth is ripe.....then in Chapter 15 begins the vials full of the wrath of God, which I do believe we are saved from.
3. If you wouldnt mind could you describe how you believe the end-time events take place from the rapture until the forming of the New Heaven and Earth?? In a nutshell.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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jrlaw
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Member # 7285
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posted
Let's examine the "proofs".
We can eliminate a number of them because very few will argue that the Rapture occurs at the 2nd coming. Most agree this is not a viable theory.
Therefore Items 1, 2, 4, 5, 10, 11, 12, 13, 15, & 16 are all the same. Additionally, none reference pre-Trib - they just eliminate post-Trib.
Item 3 does not offer any proof except that they are separate events.
Item 6: The church is simply not the subject of Chapters 4-21.
Item 7: Some really big assumptions here.
Item 8: Same as Item 3 - no proof of timing - only that they are separate events.
Item 9: We are also to be tested. One has to reconcile which testing is exempted for us. This refers to testing of the World by the wrath of God which does not start until the 2nd half.
Item 14: This clearly refers to the Holy Spirit rather than Raptured Saints. This offers no proof of timing.
None of these are proof of a pre-Trib Rapture. These are written mainly in defense against post-Trip Rapture. Post-Trib and Pre-Trib are not mutually exclusive - Just because it is not Post does it require that it be Pre.
I don't believe Post-Trib beliefs are held by many today. This certainly does not address pre-Trib vs Mid-Trib thinking.
BTW, Mid-Trib does not necessarily mean right at the middle. The tribulation can happen before the tribulation and all the way up to the mid-point. We don't know.
No proof is offered here and no proof can be offered. The proof simply does not exist. We are told we can't know the timing. We can be reasonably assured that it is not post-Trib because that scenario does not fit scripture.
Because we can not know, we cannot teach - we can only prepare and wait.
respectfully,
Posts: 24 | Registered: Aug 2008
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Kindgo
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Member # 2
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posted
16 Proofs of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture
by Kent Crockett
Proof #1: Revelation 19:11-21 doesn't mention a resurrection.
The rapture is a resurrection of those "in Christ" (1 Thess. 4:13-18). Isn't it a little bit odd that in Rev. 19:11-21, which is the clearest picture of the second coming of Christ, there is no mention of a resurrection? The rapture will be the biggest event since the resurrection of Jesus where hundreds of millions of Christians will be resurrected and translated, yet there isn't any mention here. Don't you think it deserves at least one verse? The rapture isn't mentioned because it doesn't happen at the second coming.
Proof #2: Zechariah 14:1-15 doesn't mention a resurrection.
This is an Old Testament picture of Jesus returning to earth at the second coming. Again, no mention of a resurrection.
Proof #3: Two different pictures are painted.
In the Old Testament, there were two different pictures painted of the Messiah—one suffering (Isa. 53:2-10, Ps. 22:6-8, 11-18) and one reigning as King (Ps. 2:6-12, Zech. 14:9,16). As we look back on these scriptures, we see they predicted two separate comings of the Messiah—the 1st coming as a suffering Messiah and the 2nd coming (still future) as a reigning King.
In the New Testament, we have another picture added. Again, we have two pictures painted which don’t look the same. These two different descriptions of Jesus’ coming point to two separate events we call "the rapture" and "the second coming."
Proof #4: The Known Day and the Unknown Day
Concerning the return of Jesus, the Bible presents a day we can't know and a day we can know. Matthew 25:13 says Jesus will return at an unknown time, while Revelation 12:6 says the Jews will have to wait 1,260 days for the Lord to return. The 1,260 days begins when the Antichrist stands in the Temple and declares himself to be God (Matt. 24:15-21, 2 Thess. 2:4) This event will take place at the mid-point of the seven year Tribulation (Dan 9:27). The Antichrist has authority to rule for 42 months, which is 1,260 days (Rev. 13:4) and will be destroyed by Jesus at His second coming (Rev. 19:20, 2 Thess. 2:8). The known and unknown days must happen at different times, meaning they are two separate events.
Proof #5: A door open in heaven (Revelation 4:1)
The door in heaven is opened to let John into heaven. We believe John's call into heaven is prophetic of the church being caught up at the rapture (see proof #6). In Revelation 19:11, heaven is opened again, this time to let the armies which are already in heaven out. This is the Church, which has been raptured at a previous time, following Jesus out of heaven at the second coming.
Proof #6: "Come up here." (Revelation 4:1)
A voice called for the apostle John to "Come up here," and immediately he was in heaven. This could be a prophetic reference to the rapture of the Church. The words "Come up here" are spoken to the two witnesses who are killed in the middle of the Tribulation, who are resurrected and ascend into heaven (Rev. 11:12). Therefore, the phrase "Come up here" could mean the church is raptured in Rev. 4:1. The word "church" is mentioned 22 times in Rev. 1-3, but is not mentioned again until Rev. 22:17.
Proof #7: The 24 elders have their crowns.
After John is called up into heaven, he sees the 24 elders with their crowns (Rev. 4:4-10). We know that Christians will receive their rewards (crowns) at the rapture (2 Tim. 4:8, 1 Pet. 5:4). We will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous (Luke 14:14). The elders couldn't receive their crowns unless the resurrection (rapture) has taken place.
Proof #8 Holy ones are already with Jesus in heaven (Zech. 14:5, Rev. 19:14)
The armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, follow Jesus out of heaven at His second coming (Rev. 19:14, Zech. 14:5, Col. 3:4). These are not angels because Rev. 19:8 tells us the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints. In order to come out of heaven we first have to go in, indicating a previous rapture.
Proof #9: Kept from the hour of testing (Rev. 3:10)
Revelation 3:10 says we will be kept out of the hour of testing which will come upon the whole earth (the Tribulation). Some have wrongly believed "keep" means to keep through, or protect through the Tribulation. Suppose you approach a high voltage area with a sign that says, "Keep Out." Does that mean you can enter and be protected? No, it means you are forbidden from entering the area. But this verse also says He will keep us from the hour of testing. It is not just the testing, but the time period. If a student is excused from a test, he still may have to sit in the class while others take the test. But if he is excused from the hour of testing, he can go home. The Church will be called home before the hour of testing.
Proof #10: Angels don't resurrect people when they gather them for judgment.
When the angels are sent forth to gather the elect at the second coming (Matt. 24:29-31), some have wrongly interpreted this as the rapture. There is one huge problem with this interpretation. If we are resurrected at this time, why would we need angels to gather us? In the resurrection, we will be like the angels (Matt. 22:30), able to travel in the air at will. Obviously, these people who are gathered are not resurrected, therefore it can't be the rapture. No one would claim the wicked are raptured at this time, yet Matthew 13:39-41, 49 says the angels will not only gather the elect, but also the wicked. This gathering is not a resurrection.
Proof #11: Both the wicked and the righteous can't be taken first.
First Thessalonians 4:13-17 says the righteous are taken and the wicked are left behind. Matthew 13:30, 49 says the wicked are taken first and righteous are left behind. This points to two separate events, the rapture and the second coming.
Proof #12: Jesus returns from the wedding.
When Jesus returns to earth at the second coming, He will return from a wedding (Luke 12:36). At the rapture, Jesus is married to His bride, the Church. After the wedding, He will return to earth.
Proof #13: Jesus will receive us to Himself, not us to receive Him (John 14:2-3).
Jesus said He would prepare a place for the Church in heaven, then He would come again to receive us to Himself. Why would Jesus prepare a place for us in heaven and then not take us there? At the rapture, He will come to receive us to Himself, "that where I am (heaven), there you may be also." If the rapture occurred at the same time as the second coming, we would go up to the clouds and then immediately come back to earth. That would contradict John 14:2-3.
Proof #14: The one who restrains is taken out of the way.
In 2 Thess. 2:6-7, Paul says "the one who restrains will be taken out of the way" before the Antichrist can be revealed. We believe this refers to the rapture because the Church is clearly the biggest obstacle to the Antichrist becoming a world ruler.
Proof #15: The separation of the sheep and goats (Matt. 25:31-46)
If the rapture occurred at the second coming, why would the sheep and the goats need to be separated immediately after the second coming? A rapture at the second coming would have already separated the sheep and the goats. With a Pre-Tribulation rapture, the people saved after the rapture will need to be separated after the second coming.
Proof #16: Who will populate the Millennium?
If the rapture occurs at the second coming and the wicked are cast into hell at that time, who will be left to populate the millennium? Only people in their natural (non-resurrected) bodies will be able to have children (Matt. 22:30). With a Pre-Tribulation rapture, the people saved after the rapture who are alive at the second coming will populate the earth during the Millennium.
©2008 RaptureAlert.com.
http://www.rapturealert.com/sixteenproofs.html
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002
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