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Topic: Will You Fail the Test?
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Carmela
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Member # 4817
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posted
Then it's a win win situation. We choose Jesus and He chooses us. Well, not that I look at it this way though, we actually get the better end of the deal. I'm so glad Jesus sees me as if He has won, even when I feel like I have gotten the better end of the bargain.
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Eden
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Michael H. wrote quote:
When one is 'chosen' the same has to "choose back!" Otherwise their will is overridden
Very good point. We do have to WANT to be chosen. It's like asking a woman out on a date, if she says, "ok", well and good there is a date, but if she says, "no", there is no date, eventhough I "chose" her. ![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif)
Eden
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Michael Harrison
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When one is 'chosen' the same has to "choose back!"
Otherwise their will is overridden! Ridden; Whirrrr! Ridden; Ridden; Beep! (Well, if I sound like a broken record, or a short-circuited robot, what can I say?)
We can 'take' what He has given, which ordains us to life everlasting, or err.
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Eden
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If we are chosen, how can we fail?
But, this gives new meaning to the phrase, OSAS.
If one leaves the faith of Jesus, does that mean that they were NEVER CHOSEN, but ONLY THOUGHT THEY WERE CHOSEN?
hmmmmmmm,
love, Eden
"be blessed in Jesus, everyone"
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Eden
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John 15:16
You have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that you should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain; that whatsoever you shall ask of the Father in My name, He may give it to you.
John 15:19
If you were of the world, the world would love his own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.
How can the above FAIl the test? It is GOD WHO CHOOSES. And the rest is not chosen.
Romans 8:30
Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified.
1 Timothy 6:12
Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto you are also called, and have professed a good profession before many witnesses.
To work in the vineyard means to open our mouth on behalf of the Lord, somewhere, somehow.
If we are chosen, how can we fail?
love, Eden
"make love our aim, Jesus"
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Michael Harrison
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posted
Actually I am saying a different thing, similiarly!
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Carmela
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I agree with Eden. I actually think Michael and Eden are saying the same thing here, just differently.
I like the story of the bad fruit on the tree. Thanks for sharing that Eden. I don't want any of that rotten pie though. Ewww! I'm sure glad God has called what isn't as if it is, so that the fruit can now be made a very sweet, fragrant pie.
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Posts: 646 | From: Central New York | Registered: Jun 2005
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
At the Rapture we are not going up to sit around with Jesus and play harps with the angels. There will be much work to be done and it would be foolish to think we will not be directly involved in the war that will be either in progress or about to begin. Yes, I said and meant 'in progress'. We just don’t know the timing.
Scripture doesn't say anything about sitting around playing harps, but it does tell of the Bema and the Marriage of The Lamb.
2 Corinthians 5:-10(NLT)
For we must all stand before Christ to be judged. We will each receive whatever we deserve for the good or evil we have done in our bodies.
Eternal life is a free gift given on the basis of God’s grace (Ephesians 2:8-9), but Christians’ lives will still be judged by Christ. Salvation is never obtained by works (Romans 4:4-5), and this judgment before Christ will not determine believers’ eternal destiny. Instead, at this judgment, Christ will reward Christians for how they have lived on earth. God’s gracious gift of salvation does not free Christians from the requirement of faithful obedience to Christ. All Christians must give account for how they have lived in this body.
Revelation 19:6-8(NRSV)
Then I heard what seemed to be the voice of a great multitude, like the sound of many waters and like the sound of mighty thunderpeals, crying out, “Hallelujah! For the Lord our God the Almighty reigns. Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready.”
John heard the voice of a great multitude (see also 7:9), whose voices sounded like many waters and like mighty thunderpeals. All heaven sang this hymn—the heavenly hosts and God’s redeemed people praise God. Hallelujah is a word of praise, as noted in 19:1-5. The title God the Almighty has been used several times in Revelation to describe God’s absolute sovereignty (see 1:8; 4:8; 11:17; 15:3; 16:7, 14; 19:15; 21:22).
The multitude was singing, rejoicing, exulting, and giving glory to God in a time of celebration like nothing ever seen before, for it will celebrate the marriage of the Lamb, referring to Christ. This next great vision, the bride getting ready for her wedding, contrasts with the “great prostitute” of 17:1. His bride has made herself ready—the bride is the new Jerusalem (21:2, 9-10), the church, the believers, those redeemed by Christ’s blood. This is the culmination of human history—the judgment of the wicked and the wedding of the Lamb and his bride, the church.
Scripture says we will not participate in the war if we have been raptured. The power of Christ doesn't need our help!
Revelation 19:14(NRSV)
And the armies of heaven, wearing fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses.
Accompanying Christ are the armies of heaven, referring to all believers who have been taken to heaven in the Rapture. Here the believers will be returning to earth with Christ as part of his vast army. They will be wearing fine linen, white and pure, as noted also in 19:8. Some suggest that this army will be angels because Christ had spoken of returning with his angels (Matthew 24:30-31). Most likely, however, this army will be believers because 17:14 says, “They [the Beast and the false prophet] will make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will overcome them … and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers” (NIV).
The believers will come with Christ on white horses. They will not come to fight, however, for there will not need to be a battle. Christ will conquer with his potent word (19:15).
Revelation 19:14 - 16 (NLT)
14 The armies of heaven, dressed in the finest of pure white linen, followed him on white horses. 15 From his mouth came a sharp sword to strike down the nations . He will rule them with an iron rod. He will release the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty, like juice flowing from a winepress. 16 On his robe at his thigh was written this title: King of all kings and Lord of all lords.
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
Originally posted by jrlaw:
I do not address salvation, being saved by grace. I only address the criteria for acceptance at the time of the Rapture, (whatever that is). It is wrong to assume these are the same.
I state that there will be saved Christians here after the Rapture. They may not even recognize what has happened. These Christians will be here because they require testing. It will be due to their relationship with God and not with God's relationship with them. These people are saved and will remain saved, unless of course they accept the mark.
THE EXTENT OF THE RAPTURE-PARTIAL OR TOTAL?
A. Definition of This View
Partial Rapture teaches that only those believers who are “watching” and “waiting” for the Lord’s return will be found worthy to escape the terrors of the Tribulation by being taken in the Rapture.
B. Supporters of This View
Apparently this view originated with Robert Govett in 1835 in his book Entrance into the Kingdom: The Apocalypse Expounded by Scripture. It was also taught by J.A. Seiss (The Apocalypse [New York: Cook, 1865]), G.H. Pember (The Great Prophecies of the Centuries concerning the Church [London: Hodder & Stoughton, 1895]), G.H. Lang (The Revelation of Jesus Christ [London: Paternoster, 1948], and by the Local Church Movement (Witness Lee, Revelation, Recovery Version [Anaheim, California: Living Stream Ministry, 1976]).
C. Theological Framework of This View
1. Salvation. Advocates hold to salvation by grace and eternal security of the believer, but interpret debated passages on security as Arminians do with this important exception: the danger facing the believer who fails is not perdition but millennial disinheritance. Every believer has the right to inherit the kingdom, but this can be forfeited through disobedience.
2. Sanctification. Often partial rapturists give strong emphasis to sanctification and holiness. They may teach that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is connected with power for witnessing and that the filling and indwelling of the Spirit are for some believers only, rather than for all. This emphasis carries over into their view of the Rapture; namely, that only spiritual believers will be raptured to escape the Tribulation.
3. First resurrection. The first resurrection is viewed as a resurrection for reward for spiritual believers, rather than for all. Believers who are not overcomers will be raised after the Millennium. Therefore, that second resurrection (usually seen as involving only unbelievers) will include both believers and unbelievers.
D. Outline of This View
Partial rapturists teach that there will be several times for the Rapture and resurrection of overcomers.
I. Before. Just before the beginning of the Tribulation mature living saints will be translated and mature dead saints will be raised.
2. During. Then during the seven years of Tribulation other Church Age saints who were unprepared for the initial Rapture will be raptured at various intervals. These are seen in Revelation 7:9, 14; 11:2; 12:5 (the man child includes believers); 16:15 (a Rapture to deliver watching believers from the war of Armageddon); and a final Rapture at the end.
3. After. At the close of the Millennium there will be a resurrection of believers who missed these earlier resurrections of rewards along with the resurrection of unbelievers. The believers will enter the everlasting kingdom, though they will have missed the millennial kingdom.
E. Biblical Support Cited for This View
1. Suffering. Many passages teach that believers must endure suffering before they can reign with Christ. Therefore, believers must either suffer now or in the Tribulation period (Luke 22:18-30; Acts 14:22; Rom. 8:16-17; Col. 3:24; 2 Thes. 1:4-5). Some identify the fire in 1 Corinthians 3:12-15 as the Tribulation. Revelation 3:5, it is said, may refer to a temporary blotting out of the Book of Life for carnal believers during the period of rewards which overcomers will enjoy.
2. What is the first resurrection? Since the Scriptures view the first resurrection as a prize to be gained, this means not all believers will gain it, only overcomers (Matt. 19:28-29; Luke 9:62; 20:35; Phil. 3:11-14; Rev. 2:11; 3:5).
3. Birthright. A believer, it is said, may lose his birthright and thus forfeit his chance to be raptured before the Tribulation (1 Cor. 6:9-10; Gal. 5:19-21; Heb. 12:14).
4. Baptism of the Spirit. Since the baptism of the Spirit is seen as empowerment for witnessing, all believers are not in the body of Christ and therefore not necessarily raptured.
5. Reward. The Rapture is viewed as a reward which not all believers will attain (Matt. 24:40-41; 25:1-13; 1 Cor. 9:27; 2 Tim. 4:8; Titus 2:13; Heb. 9:24-28; Rev. 3:10).
F. Some Problems with This View
1. Exclusiveness. First Corinthians 15:51-52 plainly states that all will be changed, not some.
2. Baptism of the Spirit. The baptism of the Spirit does place all believers in the body of Christ (12:13), thus all will experience the promise of the Rapture.
3. Who will be punished? The Tribulation period is never spoken of as a time of chastening for the church or part of the church. It is the time of Jacob’s trouble .
4. Reward? The Rapture is not a reward for godly living; rather godly living will be rewarded with crowns, not Rapture (2 Tim. 4:8, and other passages on crowns).
(Basic Theology)
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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Eden
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Michael (if I may call you Michael since your cyberhandle is so long...) That's why the Lord said, "You shall know them by their FRUIT". ![[roll on floor]](graemlins/6.gif)
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Michael Harrison
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quote:
While the fruit is on the tree, before it is picked, it is as rotten as the rest of the fruit. But once the rotting fruit is rescued from the tree by a Savior, it becomes a sweet savor unto God who converts it into something very good.
![[happyhappy]](graemlins/happyhappy.gif) I don't trust your assurances! Moreover, though HE has created in Christ Jesus, a new man after righteousness, the believer does not yet abide in his new nature. He has yet to discover God's rest, which makes him savery as the sweet smelling scent that comes from the 'broken' alabaster box.
This goes back to the old man who is not yet dead. At least, he doesn't know it. Therefore he stinketh! For he is not yet 'broken', and is like rotten fruit still clinging to the seed. But there is hope when there is the, "Breaking of the outward man." Then....
For, as a man thinketh in his heart, so is he.
- Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Oh believer! If the heart is rotten, then the fruit is rotten! Jesus, who gives us life, is not rotten, but unless the heart taps into HIS life, the fruit is evil. What is the condition of your heart? How can it be different?
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by jrlaw:
I do not address salvation, being saved by grace. I only address the criteria for acceptance at the time of the Rapture, (whatever that is). It is wrong to assume these are the same.
I state that there will be saved Christians here after the Rapture. They may not even recognize what has happened. These Christians will be here because they require testing. It will be due to their relationship with God and not with God's relationship with them. These people are saved and will remain saved, unless of course they accept the mark.
"Are" saved at that time will be "After" the Harpazo.
I assure you all that are SEALED will be untied with the Lord in the air.
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That is all.....
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jrlaw
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posted
I do not address salvation, being saved by grace. I only address the criteria for acceptance at the time of the Rapture, (whatever that is). It is wrong to assume these are the same.
I state that there will be saved Christians here after the Rapture. They may not even recognize what has happened. These Christians will be here because they require testing. It will be due to their relationship with God and not with God's relationship with them. These people are saved and will remain saved, unless of course they accept the mark.
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Eden
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While the fruit is on the tree, before it is picked, it is as rotten as the rest of the fruit. But once the rotting fruit is rescued from the tree by a Savior, it becomes a sweet savor unto God who converts it into something very good.
love, Eden
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Michael Harrison
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Ding, ding ding, ding, ding: Rotton pie for dinner! Come and get your share.
YOu may be a sinner, but you are one who is 'saved from it'. If you abide in it, you do despite to His grace. Yep! Then you are rotten pie! "Come and get your rotten pie!"
My Bible says that HE made the fruit 'good'. Ummmm! Smell that sweet savor drifting out into the evening air. Yum!
But the fruit remains rotten until one repents. And the two cannot coexist. One cannot be repentent, and rotten at the same time.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Eden
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Hi, oneinchrist, I liked your answer: quote:
Personally, I do believe that there is a real test for the Christian believer........
Will we remain committed to Jesus and His cause till the end?
Absolutely. Anyone who continues to believe that Jesus died on their behalf will be saved. People and the devil like to make it as complicated as they can.
"it's like the sun is shining on a sunny day"...
there will always be fearmongers among us, demanding TESTS.... hahaha, OMG...
love, Eden
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oneinchrist
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Personally, I do believe that there is a real test for the Christian believer........
Will we remain committed to Jesus and His cause till the end?
With love in Christ, Daniel
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Eden
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We are all sinners. But God wanted some sons and daughters to fill up His house. So God chose some of us, not because we are better or worse than others, seeing we are all sinners. But God wanted some sons and daughters.
But since we are all sinners, God had to do something about the penalty that awaited all sinners, namely death. To solve that, God sent His Son Jesus to die in the place of those sinners whom He chose to be His sons and daughters.
John 15:16
You have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that you should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever you shall ask of the Father in My name, He may give it you.
John 15:19
If you were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.
2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God has from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.
John 3:15
That whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Fail what test? That I am a sinner? I am a sinner. Did God save me? God saved me. How did God save me? By having Jesus die in place of those whom God has chosen to save.
I like to use this picture. All the fruit on a fruit tree is half-rotten, but just good enough to make a pie with. So God grabs a few of the half-rotten fruit off the tree because they are all the same, and the rest will fall to the ground to die. We Christians are that salvaged fruit pie.
We are therefore bound to give thanks always that God wanted SOME sons and daughters, else we would be falling to the ground soon too.
Luke 10:20
Notwithstanding rejoice not that the spirits are subject to you; but rather rejoice because your names are written in heaven.
love, Eden
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Carmela
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I still call myself a Christian. It's just that to some when you say, "I'm a Christian", it gives some a bad impression of us because of other Christians they knew that didn't live a good lifestyle.
I hope to change people's impressions of what a Christian is. I try to make my life be an example to others. My post may not have come across right.
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Betty Louise
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I agree that people misuse the word Christian, but I feel about it like the word gay. Just because homosexuals changed the meaning doesn't mean gay doesn't mean happy. I am a Christian. I am a Christ follower.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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Carmela
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I agree that we are to abstain from sin and I agree that many Christians need to really examine their lives and turn from sin in thier lives. I agree that many choose to sin, but if a Christian is living in sin, then they are not really Christians, they are sitting on the fence. Either that or they are choosing sin over Christ and pretending to be a Christian so they look good. So in reality, they are really not a true Christian.
However, I don't think that being afraid is the answer for every Christian. There are many Christians who really hate their sins and turn them over to the Lord. They repent and are forgiven.
I guess I just don't really like the word "Christian" anymore. Why do I say this? Well, it's a word that was started in the biblical days for those who follow Christ, but in our day and age that word has been tainted by so many. There are many who call themselves Christians, few who really choose to live the lifestyle of a true "follower of Christ".
Yes, I hate my sin and I try to avoid sinning as much as possible. I turn and repent when I sin. But I think that constantly thinking about me as a sinner is beneficial in my life. I want to keep my focus on things from above. Godly things. I focus on prayer, love, worship, and doing good for others. If I constantly was trying to see my sin, I think it would just bring me down. I'm sure there are others that feel the same. Although I think it's important to be aware of sin so I don't fall into it, if I keep my focus upon Godly things then I sin less.
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Michael Harrison
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Fail the test? The word in the KJV is 'reprobate'. It means, "not having, or retaining the knowledge [fruitful awareness], of God." If that is the test, whether one has the revelation of Christ as their life, the translation of, "fail the test," is a good one.
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Betty Louise
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All Christians will be taking in the rapture. If this would not be so, the Christians who died and were not perfect would not rise from their graves in the rapture. Thank God it is not our works that save us but salvation is a gift of God. While we will receive crowns depending on our work, salvation is totally a gift from God. We do not earn our salvation a bit at a time.
Jud 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present [you] faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
When our Heavenly Father looks on us, He looks through the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ. I am so grateful for that, because the Bible says that all our righteousness is filthy rags to God.
By the way I am a proud member of the rapture ready board. When the death angel passed over the doors of the Jewish people, it was the blood over the door that saved them, not themselves.
Jesus blood saves us, not our works.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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jrlaw
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The apostle Paul threatens obstinate offenders. "Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you - unless, of course, you fail the test?"
2 Corinthians 13:5 (NIV)
"Though it is God's gracious method to bear long with sinners, yet he will not bear always; at length he will come, and will not spare those who remain obstinate and impenitent. Christ at his crucifixion, appeared as only a weak and helpless man, but his resurrection and life showed his Divine power. So the apostles, how mean and contemptible soever they appeared to the world, yet, as instruments, they manifested the power of God. Let them prove their tempers, conduct, and experience, as gold is assayed or proved by the touchstone. If they could prove themselves not to be reprobates, not to be rejected of Christ, he trusted they would know that he was not a reprobate, not disowned by Christ. They ought to know if Christ Jesus was in them, by the influences, graces, and indwelling of his Spirit, by his kingdom set up in their hearts. Let us question our own souls; either we are true Christians, or we are deceivers. Unless Christ be in us by his Spirit, and power of his love, our faith is dead, and we are yet disapproved by our Judge. (2 Co 13:5-10)"
Matthew Henry’s Concise Commentary on the Bible is available in the Public Domain.
I recently submitted an article to RaptureReady and it 'failed the test'. Several points in the article were at the fringe of acceptability for the strict pre-tribulation dogma presented and enforced at that site. I love to visit the site because you find a wealth of really good stuff there. However, you will not see what I present here and in my other articles.
Among other things, I was told that "all born-again Christians will be taken at the Rapture". I ask you this; will a born-again Christian who is in bed with her neighbor’s husband at the time of the Rapture be taken? The answer is simple – no, she will not. Quoting Matthew Henry, "God will not spare those who remain obstinate".
Yes, born-again Christians sin. Being born-again does not stop the sin, it only slows it down somewhat and guarantees forgiveness . . . . to a point. Be careful here. If you think that being born-again ended your sin then you do not understand God's creation and God's plan for salvation.
So here is my point. When we are told that 'all' will be taken at the Rapture, what is the criteria for being included in the group called 'all'; the apostle Paul certainly did not mean 'all people'. Paul did not say 'all born-again'; he did not say 'all Catholics'; he did not say 'all from the Church of Christ'. The only thing we can be sure of is that all those acceptable to Jesus at the time of the Rapture will be taken.
We do not and we can not know that criteria – we can only speculate.
I state to you that there will be some 'obstinate and impenitent' born-again Christians left behind because there is something in their relationship with God that requires further testing.
And so I address you fellow born-again sinners; we are entering into dangerous times. You can forget your “feel-good” and “God-is-love” Christianity. You won’t recognize Jesus if this is your perception because this will not be His game-face when He returns. He won’t have time to give you a hug – He is in full battle mode and His game-face will be shock & awe.
At the Rapture we are not going up to sit around with Jesus and play harps with the angels. There will be much work to be done and it would be foolish to think we will not be directly involved in the war that will be either in progress or about to begin. Yes, I said and meant 'in progress'. We just don’t know the timing.
Did I hear you say; "War? I don't believe in war."? Well, you don't have a choice because God does believe in war; you either fight it here on earth or you can fight in the realm of Jesus. I want to be with Him; it will not be pleasant here. There is no middle ground and there are no sidelines. All that you see now is about to come apart - America will no longer be at the mall.
• If you are sure in your own mind that you will be taken at the Rapture – think again. You do not know the criteria. Examine yourself constantly so you will pass the test.
• If you are sure in your own mind that the Rapture will take place before the tribulation – think again. We do not and we can not know the timing.
• If you think you will recognize the Antichrist when he comes onto the scene – think again because he will deceive many including the born-again Christian woman in bed with her neighbor’s husband. And yes, he won’t be taken either even if he is the pastor of a large congregation.
• If you think you will have recognized the Rapture if you are left behind – think again because the resurrection of Jesus, the sign of Jonah, was the last sign mankind will ever receive confirming His role as our savior. The Rapture may not be manifested as a recognizable miracle to those left behind.
And so is Jesus in you? Are you sinning? Will you pass the test? If your answers are an emphatic "yes", "no", "yes", then I would say you are over confident.
"Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves."
2 Corinthians 13:5
I urge all to examine often.
Respectfully,
James R. Lawrence
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