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Topic: Could this be a Sixth Trumpet Event?
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Isaiah
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posted
I try not to lean on what men say -but when I do read something of man's -check scripture to see if it is true. Some do know whereof they speak, though not many, and even the apostles warned of false writings in their names. Those who wrote the bible were men -but they were caused to do so by God -and that is the difference -lots of independents out there making stuff up.
Will post a timeline of events and scriptural references later -no time now.
Posts: 288 | Registered: Aug 2007
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scythewieldor
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AG is Assembly of God.
Dispensational is a rendering of eschatology which, most popularly, has a rapture before a 7 year tribulation when the mark of the beast is necessary for buying and selling. At the end of the great tribulation, Lord Jesus comes back and throws the beast and the false prophet into the Lake of Fire, the devil into the pit, and sets up thrones to reign with the 144,000 for 1000 years. According to this rendering, the devil comes up out of the pit at the end of the 1000 years, deceives the nations into starting a war with the saints, and God comes back to oversee the Great White Throne Judgment of all the dead. The first heaven and earth go away. The new heaven and earth are here, and New Jerusalem comes down onto the new earth.
Some dispensationalists believe the gifts of the Spirit stopped at the end of the writing of the New Testament. Most believe that the gentiles which got save under the New Covenant were a Plan B sort of thing for which little or no prophecy may be found in the Old Testament.
They are unaware of most Old Testament prophecy, very familiar with the words of Daniel, and a couple of things from Ezekiel. When they read the word "Israel" in the Bible, no matter how many times it is used in contrast with Judah, the read "the Jews".
I am not dispensationalist. Neither am I amillennialist. I am one of the lost sheep of the house of Israel which the Holy Spirit reproved of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
- Of sin, because I had been in unbelief;
- Of righteousness, because Jesus went to His Father, and we see Him no more;
- Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
I am convinced of a God whose counsels of old are faithfulness and truth. Him I will exalt, and His Name I will praise, for He has done wonderful things.
Therefore, I lean little upon the records of men, but heavily upon the Holy Bible. I expect the Writer of the Bible declared Himself with immeasurable Good Will for any who would read His words in faith. Therefore, what He said, He meant; and what He meant, He said.
Oh, if only I could replace, in my mind, all the futile traditions inherited from my earthly fathers with the values and expectations of my Heavenly Father.
quote:
Col 1:9 ¶ For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;
11 Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;
12 ¶ Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
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Isaiah
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First -I have no idea what AG is -nor do I fully understand the term dispensational presentation. I do not know in full what you believe to correctly answer...
But... you wrote the following...
"For instance, after Satan comes up out of the pit, we have the prophecy of the time of the judgment of the dead- all of the dead."
and....
"As Eden pointed out, all of the mysterious things prophesied will be finished when the Seventh Angel begins to sound. That must include the thousand years Satan is in the pit."
If all you have said rests on this point, I'd say you do not understand the verse correctly.
"Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."
First: even this very verse says the mystery of God will be finished when the angel BEGINS to sound -so the rest of the "sounding" is future to the finishing of the mystery.
Second: The "finish"ing of the "mystery of God" is not the completion of every EVENT -but the "MYSTERY"! (G3466 mustērion moos-tay'-ree-on
From a derivative of μύω muō (to shut the mouth); a secret or “mystery” (through the idea of silence imposed by initiation into religious rites): - mystery.)
It does NOT mean that every event ever foretold will have already come to pass at that time -it DOES mean that those things which REMAIN UNKNOWN will then be KNOWN. To finish a mystery is to make it NO LONGER A MYSTERY.
Daniel is one of the prophets to which part of the mystery was revealed -and he wrote....
"Dan 12:8-9 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end."
The assumptions made based on the misunderstanding of the mystery of God do not stand to reason or even plainly stated biblical truth.
I am saying that the bible clearly states that those in the first resurrection are NOT resurrected to the "great white throne" judgment which IS after the thousand years. They do not escape judgment -as God works it within the firstfruits during their human lifetimes -but they are NOT resurrected to the judgment after the thousand years!
This is what is meant by "the REST of the dead"!
The dead in CHRIST are raised when he returns -at the last trump -to the FIRST RESURRECTION -and the living in Christ are caught up with them and they are all made immortal at that time -they then reign with Christ 1000 years. AFTER the thousand years, the REST of the dead are raised to the judgment -AS PLAINLY STATED in Revelation 20!
2Pe 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
It is true that.....
Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at naught thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
...but not necessarily resurrected after the thousand years. IF SOME ARE GIVEN LIFE WHEN CHRIST RETURNS WITH A SHOUT(1Th 4:16), IT IS OBVIOUS GOD HAS ALREADY JUDGED THAT THEY SHOULD LIVE!
WE WILL ALL GIVE ACCOUNT! Rom 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
But not all men will be in the same judgment at the same time!
1Co 11:30-32 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
If it happens NOW it won't happen LATER.
Those who are truly called by God in this time -and answer by obedience -do they not give account in their prayers -confessing and asking for forgiveness? Does not God work with them, chasten them, correct them, and bring them to righteousness because they hunger and thirst for it? If he forgives those who truly confess their sins -for what will they then be negatively judged? And if he says to them before the thousand years...Luk 19:17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
...will he take the reward and honor of such servitude away after the thousand years?
It is those who do NOT confess their sins -or continue to do so as GOD points them out ( for which we should be thankful -not to be confused with the haphazard accusations of men)-or who do not consider God now -or are not called by God now -who will have need of the judgment later!
The mystery of God is finished when the seventh angel BEGINS to sound -by God revealing to HIS servants and prophets what was NOT understood by even those in the bible we esteem so highly! Not that they will be better -but for the purpose. The former wrote it -but few understood it -the latter will understand the former -and prophesy AGAIN!
Rev 10:11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.
His servants -to which he will reveal the understanding of his mystery -and by which it is revealed to others -are the philadelphian era of his church(Rev 3:7-12), which are kept from the tribulation -protected in the wilderness (Rev 12:14) -led by he who will first be a firebrand for God by which his servants are instructed(Zec 3:2, Eph 4:30, Rev 7:2-3, Rev 9:4), the 144,000 who have the testimony of Christ in the tribulation(Rev 12:17)....those on whom he pours out his spirit (Act 2:17-18) -in this time becoming a great multitude from every nation, people, kindred and tongue(Rev 7:9)
So many think they know -think they understand -but look on this website -how many agree on even the slightest issue? Yet, God will bring the sincere to a proper understanding.
This subject is hugemongous ...ginormous, even...but this post is getting wayyyyy too lengthy... just remember...
Jam 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
and God will lead us the rest of the way -Yayyyyy ![[hyper]](graemlins/hyper.gif)
P.S. Were you waiting on God -or another? I do not mean to be sarcastic -but was wondering if by HIM you meant the Father or another.(I do not believe the spirit of God to be a separate person, but that by which the Father and Son act)Zec 4:6 Then he answered and spoke unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.
Act 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my spirit; and they shall prophesy:
P.S. -Being 50, you might probably have literally wielded a scythe -I (38) grew up on a small farm and used one of those -sure is a good workout! Wouldn't mind a return to an agrarian culture, myself.
Mic 4:3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
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scythewieldor
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Dear Isaiah,
I grew up AG. I've known the dispensational presentation of the end times for 37 years. (I'll be fifty, this year.)
When I was 17, I was at our denom's nearest Bible School ready to begin my career as a preacher by starting there.
God told me what my next thirty years would be like and, then, asked me this: "When you find out that the things they teach you hear are not a blessing to my people and, when I show what it takes to be a blessing to my people, will you be able to leave "your" pastorate, "your" career, "your" retirement, "your" reputation, and "your" peers to follow Me?"
So, I began reading the Bible expecting the Holy Spirit was able to lead me in my understanding better than men could.
I had to wait a long time for Him on many things. One of those things that came, I believe, from Him was the recognition that the last few verses of Rev. 11 tie up all of history from the point of view of God's sovereign dealings with temporal humanity.
Chapter Twelve begins a history which reveals Satan's attempts to interrupt God's sovereignty through deceptions.
Because of this, we see scriptures that echo things that seem to have already happened. For instance, after Satan comes up out of the pit, we have the prophecy of the time of the judgment of the dead- all of the dead.
quote:
Re 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
As Eden pointed out, all of the mysterious things prophesied will be finished when the Seventh Angel begins to sound. That must include the thousand years Satan is in the pit.
The next reference we have to the Seventh Trumpet agrees.
quote:
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
You can only have one "time of the dead that they should be judged". You can only have one destruction of the earth.
Therefore, the reference to the beast that comes up out of the pit made in the Sixth Trumpet/Second Woe as the one that kills the Two Witnesses is the same beast (the eighth beast) upon the kingdom of which the Seven Vials are poured, who wears out the saints, and who, with the ten kings, destroys Babylon.
I don't expect you to change your mind. It is just that, after writing and re-writing in my own words The Revelation scenario, and, each time, finding myself looping back and stuck, either, at the end of the Eleventh Chapter or at the point when the beast is throne into the Lake of Fire, I, finally, had to admit that the pit was used more than once. The head of the seven-headed beast that was wounded with a sword and which comes back to life is a kingdom [LIST] [*]that died before The Revelation was written, and, [*]that was in the pit at the time The Revelation was written, and, [*]which will come back to life in the Sixth Trumpet, and, [*]which will be against the saints like the Two Olive Trees.
So, according to what I see now, the day when corruption puts on incorruption is the Seventh/Last Trump. However, the Sixth Trump may be a gathering of the saints for in the air when the Lord comes back to fight the eighth beast in a battle the results of which are the casting of the false prophet and the beast into the lake of Fire, and the dragon into the pit.
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Isaiah
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There are seven holy times -feast of passover(Luk 22:15), days of unleavened bread(1Co 5:8), pentecost(Act 2:1, Act 20:16, 1Co 16:8), feast of trumpets(Rev 8:2), day of atonement(Lev 16:29, Rom 5:11), feast of tabernacles(Zec 14:16), and the last great day(Joh 7:37).....(all of which were kept by Christ, the apostles and the new testament church, by the way)...
They all teach a part of the plan of God. Most stopped keeping them -which is partly why there is so much confusion today about every part of the plan.
Part of the meaning of the day of trumpets is the last trumpet -which ends when the kingdoms of
this world become Christ's (Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel SOUNDED...etc...)
...but it includes all seven trumpets...
There are seven seals. In the seventh seal are the seven angels with seven trumpets. In the seventh trumpet there are also seven angels which have the seven last plagues.
Essentially, everything after the prophesying of the two witnesses is the seventh trumpet -and the seventh trumpet is the process by which Christ assumes control of the earth! He will gather those who "destroy the earth" to Meggido -where they will be set to fight each other -then he will return -they will attempt to destroy him -but will be destroyed by him.
After the two prophesy -which is during the 3 1/2 years the beast reigns -they are killed by the beast. This is basically the end of the 'tribulation' proper -that is -man doing harm to man -and the beginning of the "great and terrible day of the Lord" -which is Christ and his army of angels putting down those who will resist him. Yes -they will actually attempt to make war with him when he returns!
Zec 14:3-4 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west.....
Rev 17:12-14 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
Joe 2:10-11 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Soooo myahhh -the vials are 'seventh trumpet'
(The trumpet was a call to assembly -but also a call to war or warning thereof...both of which are applicable here...
God also sets up spiritual watchmen to warn of actual destruction unless people repent....
Eze 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.
Men -for some reason -usually ridicule them or try to shut them up -even try to gain exclusivity to the information (Jer 20:10 For I heard the defaming of many, fear on every side. Report, say they, and we will report it.)-but God does nothing unless he first declares it.
Amo 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
Amo 3:8 The lion hath roared, who will not fear? the Lord GOD hath spoken, who can but prophesy?
True prophecy is accurate. Men like secrets, and the power they think they can gain from foreknowledge -but God's plan requires that men hear certain things, and that takes priority.)
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CHEWY
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Scythe-
I would love to respond to this but I cannot at this time. Confusion, perhaps - too much presupposition, possibly. I too will seek clarity. If God so wishes to help me understand, I will share....
Chewy-
Posts: 86 | From: Kingsport Tn. | Registered: Jan 2008
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scythewieldor
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Is the trump of God the Last/Seventh Trump, or, are all seven trumps the trumps of God making each of them one at which a gathering could occur?
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scythewieldor
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Is the trump of God different Last/Seventh Trump, or, are all seven trumps the trumps of God making each of them one at which a gathering could occur?
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scythewieldor
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quote:
1 Thes 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
We are learning that some things happen at the Last/Seventh trump that can not happen earlier. However, do all things that are foretold as happening at a Trumpet have to happen at the last one?
If the a vial of the wrath of God is poured onto the air, could that mark the point when the Lord manifests His authority in a new place? (Manifest means to make apparent to all though it may have been, but unobserved, before.)
quote:
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air <109>, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Re 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air <109>; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air <109>: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
If so, then that would be a Sixth Trumpet/Second Woe/Seventh Vial thing.
Who knows, exactly, what occurred at each of Israel's trumpet occasions?
I know that there were three occasions yearly for which all Israelite men were supposed to present themselves before the Lord. Was a trumpet blown to call the males?
quote:
Ex 23:17 Three times in the year all thy males shall appear before the Lord GOD.
Were these gatherings of males at the the same times as the three mandated feasts?
quote:
Ex 23:14 Three times thou shalt keep a feast unto me in the year.
Lord, I want to know. I am willing to keep changing my model until it is most pleasing to Thee, Oh Most High. I am not selling any thing so I am free to allow You, Oh God of all flesh, to adjust my thinking.
Friends, there are some dispensational riffs which I have already proven wrong by scripture. Not all dispensational stuff is worthless, though. In fact, I am more open to it, now, than I have been in years.
Don't cut n paste the words of Scofield or Larson or Dake. God has clarified so much more since then. I need responses of people who live by every word (remembering that our God is not the author of confusion) that proceeds from the mouth of God- not those who live by the words that proceed from the pens of booksellers. I need responses from people who love the Truth AND the appearing of Christ- not from people who are trying to maintain the approval of the men in their denominations, or who love to wear long robes and have men draw near to them in the marketplaces that pass for church houses.
I believe we are close to something more valid.
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