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Author
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Topic: When do these wars occur?
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Isaiah
Advanced Member
Member # 6699
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posted
Most of the people on earth will have been harmed BY the nations -warring with each other -and by plagues from God -before Christ returns. It says a full THIRD of all men will be killed by various war machines (Rev 9:16-19 The third part of men is certain -but some do not believe these represent war machines [interestingly, their breastplates were "of fire, jacinth and brimstone" - roughly representing the primary colors -red, blue, yellow -which, combined, make army drab green]).
Many will die from tainted water -some believe it to be by radiation(Rev 8:10-11)
..and so on and so forth... so by the time Christ returns, the present population will have been decimated, It is also written...
Jer 25:33 And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground.
And let us not forget Joel 2 -God's angelic army which cannot be hurt by the sword....
God, however, is the only one who is able to sort men by what is in their hearts -so his people will be afforded some protection -and though some will be martyred, they will be resurrected.
The book of Daniel gives a rather detailed account of how the last 'king of the north' (not Russia, as this king is troubled by tidings from the north and east, and there is nothing further north than Russia)comes to be near Jerusalem. It is he who will have placed the abomination of desolation before Christ's return (Dan 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.) He will reign only 3 1/2 years (Dan 12:7, Dan 7:25, Rev 12:14), will pass through the Islamic nations (Dan 11:40), strike first at those to the north and east(Russia and China)(Dan 11:44) -and end up in the area of the holy land (Dan 11:45), with Russia and China, et al.. on his tail... who will have designs of their own in the area apart from defeating the king of the north -much like Russia had designs in WWII other than ridding the world of Hitler, etc... which is how we ended upwith the Berlin wall. They are the sort to -if they are going to war -have something to show for it.(Ezekiel 38 and 39)
Eze 38:10-11 Thus saith the Lord GOD; It shall also come to pass, that at the same time shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an evil thought: And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,
Eze 38:16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.
So -Russia, China, and any of those of the other non-Israelite nations which have designs against Jerusalem -not necessarily a hatred of Jews -will not be drawn to the area by Christ's return -but will certainly regret going there at all.
Eze 38:22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.
Zec 14:12 And this shall be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the peoples that wage war against Jerusalem: their flesh will rot while they are still standing on their feet, their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths.
Ouch!
But then the good news!
Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zec 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
They will eventually cease resisiting and realize how wonderful it is to live in peace.
Also...
Remember -the judgment is not until after the thousand years, though those in the first resurrection will have been judged during their lives (so to speak) (Rev 20:10-15 and Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished....etc).
So -when men die -they awake to the judgment. This is not all bad -some will receive life after judgment, etc....some will be saved "by fire" (1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.)
But it is true that the absolutely unrepentant will eventually be destroyed -cease to exist.(The soul that sinneth, it shall die)
Those who are DECEIVED after the millenium to march against the camp of the saints are subject to God's judgment -I do not know what he will decide -but they not necessarily more guilty than those who stoned Stephen -for whom he himself asked God's forgiveness.
As for those who are not deceived at that time, they -as all men who have ever lived -will be given the opportunity to live as immortal spirits -under God and Christ.
After the thousand years -the universe -the heavens will be INHABITED -and we will create wonderful things forever.
Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
Phi 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
Rom 8:19 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God.
Rom 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope
Rom 8:21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now.
Rom 8:23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.
YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
![[hyper]](graemlins/hyper.gif)
{Technically, the things which lead up to these wars have already begun. The "seething pot" of Jeremiah 1 has already been kindled. The world is on the brink of trouble -Jerusalem is a burdensome stone(Zec 12:3), many now stand against the king of the south[Iran/radical Islam](Daniell 11:14), the king of the north (E.U. generally] is rising to power(Dan 11:40), Russia is becoming strong again....
Power is shifting -and this is being resisted
-many situations in all parts of the world are quickly getting out of control and potentially explosive. Those who have power will be called upon to sort things out -but many will have expansion, etc... in mind -not simply peace.}
Posts: 288 | Registered: Aug 2007
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scythewieldor
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posted
Dear Eden,
Keeping in mind that you and I disagree upon the identity of Israel, which, by the nature of the case, gives us different conditions for interpreting The Revelation, I point out that the Armageddon battle is a Sixth Trumpet/Second Woe event and the Gog and Magog battle comes at the end of the Millennium as a Seventh Trumpet/Last Trumpet/Third Woe event.
This allows me to recognize the Christians from among the gentiles as the children of Israel who, with the children of Judah, suffer, are overcome, and are killed under the eighth beast.
This process gives us a context for the 144,000, who follow the Lamb where ever He goes, being seen in heaven, and, necessarily, are part of the army which comes out of heaven following the Lamb in that Armageddon war.
Rapture? I think that is a Seventh Trumpet/Last Trumpet event. When heaven and earth depart, those who are alive and remain are changed to be like the ones which had gotten the victory over the beast and were raised in the First Resurrection.
To gain a resurrection, it is necessary according to the nature of the case that you die first. Therefore, raptured people are not a part of the First Resurrection.
It looks like many of the Millennium-born people are wiped out when fire comes down from God. Presumably, some have died of natural causes, accidents, and, maybe, even murders. (The Lamb and His followers have to judge something, it seems.) These, as well as those which had died before the Millennium, are judged according to their works after the sea, death, and hell give up their dead.
Then, the people the names of which are not found in that Book of Life go into the Lake of Fire/Second Death.
My model is always changing. The things you guys say, often, effect it.
I love you all for that, too.
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Eden
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Hi, Isaiah, I think that Jesus setting down on the mount of Olives could be the trigger which brings the nations to come around Jerusalem.
However, sometime ago I realized that the armies of the nations would come around Jerusalem so that Jesus and the LORD would destroy only the armies, but the people of the nations will still be in their nations, except, they are now army-less.
And with all or the most important armies destroyed, the Lord Jesus now begins to rule over the people who are still, unharmed in the nations.
Just prior to Jesus setting foot on the mount of Olives, the living Christians and the dead Christians rose up to meet Jesus in the air and we receive our glorified spiritual body just like Jesus had, and has.
At that point, all we glorified Christians descend with Jesus to the earth and the armies of the nations are destroyed.
Then Jesus begins to reign from Jerusalem and the glorified Christians are assigned to rule as princes under Jesus, some over 10 cities, some over 5 cities, some over 2 cities, and probably some over 1 city, during the 1,000 year ministerial reign of the Lord Jesus at Jerusalem, as the army-less nations turn their plows into plowshares.
Then, at the end of the 1,000 year reign by Jesus and the glorified Christtian princes, Satan is loosed from the abussos, and allowed one more time, figuratively "for one hour", to see who of the nations still wants to go with Lucifer-Satan, and then all they who side one more time with Lucifer-Satan will all be destroyed.
But presumably a lot of people will ended up desiring the Lord Jesus more than what Lucifer-Satan had to offer during our current dispensation, so the amount of people who actually side again with Lucifer-Satan may be small.
But the people on the earth who do NOT side with Lucifer-Satan, what becomes of them if there is a new heaven (new sky?) and a new earth (or renewed sky and renewed earth), what happens to the people who ended up liking living under the benevolent rule of Jesus, what happens to them at the end of the 1,000 years?
eden
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Isaiah
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Member # 6699
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posted
The valley of Megiddo (Armageddon) http://www.rumormillnews.com/images/megiddo.jpg
has been the site of many battles.
God will soon gather the armies of the earth (which remain after the tribulation) there. They will be gathered there to fight each other, but when Christ returns, the battle will turn toward the mount of Olives -where he will return in glory...
Rev 16:12-14 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
Rev 17:12-14 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
Zec 14:2-4 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Those dead in Christ will rise first at the last trump, the living will be caught up with them, and they will be changed to spirits -immortal. The dead and living in Christ will include both Israelites and gentiles. The last trump is the seventh trumpet of Revelation -when the seventh angels sounds this trumpet, Christ returns and the kingdoms of this world become Christ's -I would think this would be just after the armies of the earth are defeated by Christ (and God's army of angels -Joel 2), but it is generally at his return.
There will be no wars after his return!
Mic 4:3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
HOWEVER... there will be one more ATTEMPT at war after the thousand years... but it will be cut short quite dramatically...
Rev 20:6-9 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. [(Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.)] And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
THIS IS THE END OF WAR!
As for Ezekiel 39....."O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:"
This is Russia, et al.. leading up to -and including the battle which rages as they are gathered to Megiddo and then toward Christ...I will try to explain more later, but... generally ...the beast is attacked by armies from the east and north(primarily Russia and China), which drive him to the holy land...Dan 11:44-45, Rev 16:12, etc...so, though they defeat the beast -sending him to his final end by the returning Christ, the beast will cause them many casualties -and vice versa -in their own land and in the holy land....
Zec 12:2-3 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
Rev 14:20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
Posts: 288 | Registered: Aug 2007
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Eden
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The way I currently see it goes something like this.
The house of Judah and the house of Israel come up out of their graves among the Gentiles and come to Israel and are also given the spirit, just like the Christians spirit, and at that time all the Christians are caught up to meet the Lord in the air.
At that point the house of Israel and the house of Judah are glorified and the Christians are glorified and the Lord Jesus and the glorified people go back to earth and Jesus sets down on the mount of Olives and this, to be brief, starts the millennial or 1,000 year reign of all the people still on earth, except now reigned over by the Lord Jesus and by the Israel of God (the combined house of Israel and Judah and the church has now become the Israel of God).
Now my question is, at what point in the above scenario does the so-called war of Armageddon take place?
Does the war of Armageddon take place when Jesus's attempt to take control of the earth is met with resistance and nations surround Israel because Jesus has just landed there with the glorified Israel of God, or,
Does that war of Armageddon take place at the end of the 1,000 year reign of Jesus and the Israel of God?
Revelation 16
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
And is this a separate event, and this has not happened yet either, right?
Ezekiel 39
1 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:
2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:
3 And I will smite thy bow out of thy left hand, and will cause thine arrows to fall out of thy right hand.
4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.
5 Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.
6 And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the LORD.
7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.
8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.
9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:
10 So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord GOD.
11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.
12 And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land.
13 Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified, saith the Lord GOD.
14 And they shall sever out men of continual employment, passing through the land to bury with the passengers those that remain upon the face of the earth, to cleanse it: after the end of seven months shall they search.
15 And the passengers that pass through the land, when any seeth a man's bone, then shall he set up a sign by it, till the buriers have buried it in the valley of Hamongog.
16 And also the name of the city shall be Hamonah. Thus shall they cleanse the land.
17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
20 Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.
21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.
23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.
25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: [n]for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel[/b], says the Lord GOD.
Do these 2 wars occur before or at the time of our glorification or at the end of the 1,000 year period, or what?
eden
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