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» Christian Message Boards   » Bible Studies   » Bible Topics & Study   » scythewieldor, who are the believers among the Gentiles?

   
Author Topic: scythewieldor, who are the believers among the Gentiles?
scythewieldor
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Dear friends,
Even if God were to limit salvation to the two houses of Jacob, the number of those predestined to be called the sons of the living God is too great to count. Since the children of the house of Israel were to be scattered into every nation, it is not a lie to say that those predestined children are everywhere, AND, there are lots of them. LLLLOTTTS of them.
Go to the seashore and see if you find any sand. Yeah.
That's the way it is with Israel. Remember how it was in Egypt? The Egyptians became very threatened by the population explosion among the Hebrew children.
This was not accidental. It was a result of the blessings upon Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
In short: Don't think naturalistically. Do not see the Word of God as a human attempt to explain God and His ways. Rather, it is God's absolutely successful declaration of Himself to people of faith.
quote:
Ro 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 ¶ As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.


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Isaiah
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I definitely disagree (sorry -I realize the question was not to me).

God -before he began to create -knew exactly what would be the end of ALL of what he caused to be.

Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

He knows- now -every person of the tribe of Judah -or of Israel as a whole -or of any other nation -who will be in the first resurrection -or thereafeter -and their place in his kingdom.

Those in the first resurrection -who will rule with Christ for 1000 years -will be from EVERY nation.(Rev 5:9-10) -which he obviously knew at the writing thereof.

It just so happens that God chose ALL of Israel to be a peculiar nation -by race -BUT they did not fulfill this role very effectively -for which he often has chastised them! He has even said of his "chosen", that those whom he personally raised against them (Assyria-Isaiah 10)as the rod of his anger -would stand against them in judgment(Luk 11:32)

The saviour -Christ -the Messiah -went to the lost sheep of Israel -and told them that the men of Nineveh -capital city of the Assyrian empire -to whom God gave Israel as captives -would rise against them in judgment.

Nineveh is -to my best understanding -the only example of complete repentance at the warning of one of God's prophets -ever recorded in the bible -and they are non-Israelite...gentile.

Jonah eventually prophesied -and the king called all to fast -from man to beast (Jon 3:8)-and the destruction of Nineveh which was prophesied did NOT come to pass -(Jon 4:11)

"Jew" can mean "of Judah" the tribe -or "of Israel" as a whole -or of those who follow Christ and are of the spiritual "circumcision"....and gentile can mean not of Judah -not of Israel -or not spiritually in Christ.....
but all things were to the Jew FIRST -then to the GENTILE....
JEWS -no matter how you define the term -were to be first -to SERVE the rest -to do them GOOD -as an example....and to bring the truth to them.. not to lord it over them....
but they often strayed from God -for which God raised other nations against them.

I am not certain to which verse you originally referred -but... any person which will -has been predestined to -be in the kingdom of God.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Rom 2:10 But glory, honor, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Even in the last great conflict between men on earth which is allowed to come to fruition...the Assyrian will be raised against Israel -then the Assyrian will be chastised by God.

(Eze 17:22-24, Eze 31:3, Isa 14:24-25, Dan 8:23-25)

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scythewieldor
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Dear Eden,
What I am saying is that only the two houses of Israel- Israel (house of Joseph/Ephraim/house of Isaac/house of Israel) and Judah- have been predestined to be conformed to the image of God's Son. These are the two vessels that held the seed of Abraham. It was about this seed God made His promises to Abraham.
God can include any gentiles He wants, but Abraham's seed is predestined. And, according to Paul, it was this seed that was in Christ and heirs according to the promises.
I have so much scripture from both Testaments that I can't put it on these pages. I have 4 lessons called "The Israel Files":
  • God's Marriages,
  • God and the Elder Sister,
  • Israel Recovered, and
  • The Purpose and Process of the Israel of God.
I will put, in this response, a piece of the work that shows how grossly misunderstood the mystery was. This part is from Israel Recovered and follows the explanation of the "Osee" reference in Romans. (Please remember that the limitations of this text editor distort the piece below.)
quote:
This is part of a longer passage which uses many such proofs of the real identity of gentile Christians. However, those who do not recognize the difference between Israel and Judah seem unable , even, to translate some of these scriptures according to the values of the Greek original. (Let the author, now, disclose that he has not had formal training in Greek. Being self-taught, he has referred to two texts on the Greek language and a Greek test of the New Testament.)
Let us look at Romans 11:25.The author has inserted numbers for reference points for considering portions of the Greek text.
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be
wise in your own conceits; that (1)blindness (2)in (3)part (7)is happened (6)to (5)Israel,
(8)until (9)the fulness (10)of the Gentiles (11)be come in.
The first half of the scripture is rendered properly enough, It is the second half where things
begin to fail so badly, in my opinion.
1. “Blindness” (or hardness, according to many versions), is the rendering of pwrwsiv.
Pwrwsiv is the word that gets transliterated “porosis”, as in osteoporosis. In medical
terminology, it means “spongy”, or “porous”. (To be sure, “porosis”, also, describes the
scarring that builds up around a bone that has been fractured.)
2. “In” is the rendering of the word, apo. Apo is translated 671 times in the Authorized
Version. It has a definite “separation” meaning to it. It is translated “from” 393 times. It is translated “in” only 6. In what language can “in” mean “from”?

3. “Part” is the rendering of merouv. Merouv comes from merov which, from it's -ov
ending, fits the form of second declension Greek nouns. The -ouv ending, then, would make it accusative in it's case and plural in it's number. The word itself is derived from a word that means “to get as a section or allotment”. Merouv, then, should be rendered “allotments”.

4. Tw is left untranslated. It means “which”.

5. The next word is “Israel”.

6. There is no Greek word indicating that “to” should be a part of the translation, at all.

7. “Is happened” is the rendering of gegonen. Gegonen comes from ginomai, and is
translated “be”, “come to pass”, “be made”, “be done”, “come”, “become”, “arise”, and “have” most of the times it shows up in the Greek text..

8. “Until” is an accurate rendering of the word acriv.

9. “The fulness” is rendered from the two words, to plhrwma. The second word was
used by Jesus when He said “that which is put in to fill up” in Matthew 9:16, and “that filled up” in Mark 2:21.

10. “Of the gentiles” is the rendering of twn eynwn. Eynwn comes from the word,
eynov. Eynov is another second declension Greek noun. The -wn ending makes it plural, and it makes it of the form which indicates either of the cases, genitive or ablative. In other words, it could be rendered, just as legitimately in the grammatical sense, “from the gentiles”.

11. “Be come in” is an accurate rendering of the Greek.

Thus, another possible rendering of the vague part of the scripture could be:
The Israel allotments have become porous until that which is put in to fill up (the Israel allotments) be come in from the gentiles.
The passage that follows, when the value of each word is accepted in a literal fashion, supports the proof given above.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of
Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the
election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through
their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may
obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
First, Paul says that, by the piece which fills up coming in from the gentiles all Israel will be saved. He provides, as his proof of that assertion, an interesting twist to a prophecy in Isaiah 59.
Is 59:20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
Notice how he says that the Deliverer comes out of Zion when the prophet says "comes to
Zion". The obvious fact is that the Deliverer has to come to Zion before He can come out of Zion.
The next part of the prophecy requires that the Redeemer serve all those that turn from transgression in Jacob. If all of Jacob was in Zion there would have been no need to come out of Zion to turn ungodliness from Jacob, for, although the some of the children of Judah did reside outside of Zion, they all had access to the holy city which is proven by the experience recorded in the Second Chapter of Acts.
Ac 2:1 ¶ And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5 ¶ And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
Therefore, since Zion was the home of Judah, but not Israel (since Israel's children had been
scattered among and swallowed by the gentiles), to save all Israel, the Redeemer had to come out of
Zion.
Remember where all those sheep of that other flock (of which the disciples had no knowledge)
were? The inhabitants of Jerusalem would not let them come back to Zion.
Eze 11:14 ¶ Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
15 Son of man, thy brethren, even thy brethren, the men of thy kindred, and all the
house of Israel wholly, are they unto whom the inhabitants of Jerusalem have said, Get
you far from the LORD: unto us is this land given in possession.
16 Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Although I have cast them far off among
the heathen, and although I have scattered them among the countries, yet will I be to
them as a little sanctuary in the countries where they shall come.
17 Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even gather you from the people, and
assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the
land of Israel.
18 And they shall come thither, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof
and all the abominations thereof from thence.
19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take
the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they
shall be my people, and I will be their God.
21 But as for them whose heart walketh after the heart of their detestable things and
their abominations, I will recompense their way upon their own heads, saith the Lord
GOD.
The next part of the prophecy to which Paul referred to God's New Covenant with those in Jacob turned from ungodliness. “I will take away their sins.” If your sins are taken away, if ungodliness has been turned from you by the Redeemer from Zion, you are the literal seed of Abraham. You are in Jacob.
Next, Paul tells us that, concerning the gospel, the children of Judah count us as enemies. However, when we consider the election according to the promises made to our fathers, they are beloved.
The reasoning that follows this is, especially, important. Paul speaks of the gifts and callings of God as being without repentance. God can't change. Therefore, the election still pertains to them. Then, Paul makes our salvation and election equivalent to the one the Judeans will know. He says,
“ For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.”
The “even so” portion is critically important. God had separated Israel and Judah from all other peoples, given them clear direction, and warnings about unbelief.
Le 20:26 And ye shall be holy unto me: for I the LORD am holy, and have severed you from other people, that ye should be mine.
Judah had, at that time, not believed, and, therefore, was in need of mercy. Paul says that this condition was identical to the condition of the saved gentiles before they had found mercy. Since the separation from all other people, instruction, and manifest faithlessness was a part of Judah's experience, then those same things must have been a part of the condition of those among the gentiles who had found mercy. They must be children of Israel.
They, indeed, are not all Israel who are of Israel. The house of Judah was of Israel, but there
were two houses of Israel. You can find children of Israel outside of Judah, but you can't find Abraham's seed outside of Isaac.

Now, if God can turn rocks into children of Abraham (which He says He can do), I am sure He would have no trouble with living, breathing flesh of any kind.
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Eden
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Scythewieldor, do I understand you to say in the Melchizedek Topic that those who end up believing in Jesus among the Gentiles are descendants of the house of Israel which was dispersed among the Gentiles as part of their Assyrian captivity around 721 B.C.?

And are you also saying that those who end up believing in Jesus among the Gentiles are also or also can be descendants of the house of Judah after the remnant of Judah was dispersed into the countries of the Gentiles after 70 A.D.?

And you say this on the basis of these verses:

Romans 9:26
And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said to them, You are not My people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

And Romans 9:26 in turn quoted:

Hosea 1:10
Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said to them, You are not My people, there it shall be said to them, You are the sons of the living God.

So scythewieldor, are you saying that ALL those who BELIEVE among the Gentiles are ALL and MUST BE ALL descendants of either the house of Israel or of the house of Judah, and NO Japhetic GENTILES are being saved?

So when salvation came to Cornelius and his household of the Italian band, they all had to be of one of these two houses, or not?

What then of John 3:16?

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

thanks, eden

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