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Author
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Topic: What does this parable refer to in your opinion?
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Eden
unregistered
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posted
Hi, everyone, thanks for sharing. I think that in the parable Jesus was saying,
Your old Adamic sin-accustomed body (the old wineskin) has become brittle and dried up and it would literally burst if the LORD God put 100% Holy Spirit, i.e., the Godhead, into US as the 100% Holy Spirit was in Jesus:
John 8:28
Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father has taught me, I speak these things.
Colossians 2:9
For in him dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
So Jesus was saying by this parable: Look, I can't put 100% Holy Spirit in your old Adamic body, it would burst and you would perish.
Luke 5:37
And no man puts new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.
But when we receive our glorified bodies, then God can put 100% Holy Spirit in us, and both are preserved:
Matthew 9:17
Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break and the wine runs out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.
with love, Eden
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becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
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posted
The fermenting of new wine builds up pressure in its container which can burst old skins. You'll notice the effect if you open a corked wine bottle. Biblical Christianity has a great deal of power and activity associated with it. It explodes out of the boundaries of Israel and continues to cross all kinds of boundaries. It cannot be contained. Neither can its practice be limited to a set of commandments. The Holy Spirit ferments the believer, helping him to infer applications from the Bible that apply to his particular situation. And having been fermented, believers are sometimes literally mistaken for drunkards.
"These men are not drunk, as you suppose. It's only nine in the morning!" Acts 2:15
The old covenant had finished fermenting. Not only that, but Israel had drunken it down and now all that was left was an old wineskin it had been contained in. Yes, it was good wine, having been aged. But its time was over. Its effect was completed and the fulness of the times had come for the new wine of the new covenant.
"So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law." Gal 3:24,25
"But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons." Gal 4:4,5
But then the most reluctant people to accept the new wine were those Jewish religious leaders, drunk on the old wine. So drunk that they kill their own Messiah. They considered the old wine better. But the Gentiles accepted the new wine. Here Jesus is contrasting the old Mosaic covenant with the new covenant as foretold by the prophets and revealed in the New Testament. The old covenant is a performance-based salvation. One is saved if they live up to a certain level of performance. The new is a salvation-based performance. One is saved through the forgiveness of sins, which requires only faith in Christ's atoning work. And having been saved, God regenerates the person, causing them to live a lifestyle consistent with that of a child of God.
The old covenant is made ineffective by man's innate sinful nature. And Israel's example also gives evidence of this. There are those who fail to keep God's standards, but then think that Christ came simply to help them become better people so that they can be justified by their performance. This is putting a new patch on an old garment.
They have holes in their garments due to sin. Then they cut a patch out of the gospel and try to attach it to a performance-based salvation concept. This is particularly true of those of a "Hyper-Wesleyan" mindset. An example of this are those who say that salvation is obtained by faith as a free gift, but it must be maintained by one's performance or else lost. They will literally quote verses dealing with the old covenant and an apply them to the new, like:
"If I tell the righteous man that he will surely live, but then he trusts in his righteousness and does evil, none of the righteous things he has done will be remembered; he will die for the evil he has done."Ez 33:13
That is the old covenant concept, not the new convenant concept.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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Michael Harrison
Advanced Member
Member # 6801
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posted
You are a new creature in Christ!
2Co 5:17 So that if any one is in Christ, that one is a new creature; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
You are filled with New Wine, Jesus, the Holy Spirit of God, and God Himself. New Wine represents the Holy Ghost. There is a condition 2Co 5:17 "So that if anyone is in Christ..." then they realize something wonderful. You are a new skin if you are in Christ. Previously, you would have been in the 'old skin,' the system of conscious and deliberate activity, rather than faith, and the resulting works of the doer therof.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
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posted
NEW WINE IN OLD BOTTLES.
Our Lord is here explaining why His disciples did
not fast, whilst John's disciples did. The children of
the bride chamber did not mourn so long as the bridegroom
was with them; but when the bridegroom should
be taken away, then they would fast. "
So no man would put a piece of new cloth into an old garment,
as that which was put in to fill it up would take away from the garment,
and the rent be made worse " (Matt. ix. 16).
The new piece would be good and valuable in itself, but its old and worn recipient would be unable to hold it. Christ's doctrine was new and pure and perfect in itself, neither requiring nor admitting of any mixture.
After this teaching the followers of John knew why the Lord's disciples did not then fast, and are shown how unseemly it would appear if they did. Then, keeping still in view the marriage festivity and its surroundings, Jesus adds,— "
Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved" (Matt. ix. 17).
Not any wise man would put his new wine into old
bottles (not of glass or wood, capable of being cleansed from the fermentable matter of their former contents, but of leather or skin saturated with an albuminous residuum or leaven from previous use); but the new wine, which under circumstances of contact with the
old adherent leaven was sure to ferment, must be so dealt with as to prevent fermentation altogether; and therefore, to avoid the fermenting process, must be consigned to new bottles, that both wine and bottles may be preserved.
The new wine would burst the old bottles, not
because they were old, but because they contained in them matter which necessarily excited fermentation in the new wine, and generated an expansive gas.
The vessels must not only be empty, but clear of all taint of the old leaven, which the old bottles (being made of skins) could not be; hence "the absolute necessity for the use of new ones.
How inseparable in the true disciple are the doctrine and the life! “If the new piece of cloth were the new doctrine," then the rich professor might obtain a new garment instead of a patch, and thus cover up his Pharisaic pride or mock humility; but the new wine, inwardly received and becoming the new life, must be poured into new vessels, spiritual vessels
sweet and clean, or spirits renewed by the power of the love of Christ operating upon the understanding, and then upon the will of the recipients. Thus the intelligent reception of the “truth as it is in Jesus,” and the willing submission of the life to His laws, though apparently and really the sinner's choice,
redound to the glory of Him who gave the truth and supplied the power of the will to accept it; and who saith,— "
Behold, I make all things new. ... I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be My son " (Rev. xxi. 5—7).
How lamentable that professed followers of Jesus
have ever been putting new patches upon old garments, and new wine into old bottles ; so that history, both sacred and profane, teems with accounts of idolatries perpetrated in His name; of human slavery sanctified by His professing church; of indulgences and wrongful monopolies conceded, and of laws, worthy
only of detestation, which license and empower the wealthy villain to " set a trap to catch men," and then to plunder them of health, wealth, character, and life!
But the sifting-time will come;— "
He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he that is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous
still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I come quickly; and My reward is with Me, to give every man according
as his work shall be " (Rev. xxii. u, 12).
St. Luke has preserved an addition to the narrative (v. 39) :— "
No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better."
Here our Lord seems to warn not only the disciples of John, but the scribes and Pharisees, that as they were not to be the servants of their palates, or slaves
to the gratification of their tastes or sensual desires, in things temporal, so they should know and practice truth in spiritual things.
John's teaching was modern, and moreover related
exclusively to the coming of Him whose forerunner John was, and the latchet of whose shoes he was not worthy to loose; but the doctrine of the scribes and Pharisees, HYPOCRITES, was relatively old and wrong, and their practices hateful in the sight of Christ (Matt. xxiii.), and hence fearful woes
are pronounced against them. They had been long
accustomed to the old wine of their own devising, and they did' not like the new. How needful for ministers to press their hearers to halt no longer between two opinions, but to accept the " manifested God "—always remembering that " he that believeth not (that is, doth not know by faith, and serve by love, the Lord Jesus) shall be damned."
The world is dying, and life is held out to it; and though no force be exercised to drive the Jews from their ceremonial law and their vain traditions, and though none will be compelled now to follow Christ; yet the old wine must be abandoned, and the new or spiritual life if Christ be accepted. "
Excerpt taken from….
http://books.google.com/books?id=pfkCAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA227&lpg=PA227&dq=men+put+new+wine+into+old+bottles&source=web&ots=PAbAUN0HQO&sig=HVeJkOeidyKkIrVZOFC9S-O1jps#PPA230,M1
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
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posted
Hi Eden...
This is the answer I found in the Life Application Bible Commentary: Luke
Luke 5:37-38
“And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the new wine will burst the skins and will be spilled, and the skins will be destroyed. But new wine must be put into fresh wineskins.”
(nrsv)
In Bible times, people would store wine in goatskins sewn around the edges to form watertight bags (called “wineskins”). New wine expands as it ferments; thus new wine must be put into fresh wineskins. Old wineskins would become brittle and wouldn’t stretch anymore; thus, if someone put new wine into an old wineskin, the old wineskin would burst and spill the wine.
There are several interpretations of the “old versus the new”:
t Law versus grace. The old cloth and old wineskins represent people under the Old Testament law, and the new cloth and new wineskins represent people under grace. This view, preserved by dispensationalists, stresses the complete break of the Old Testament view of obedience with the New Testament.
t Old covenant versus new covenant. The old cloth and old wineskins represent the older and partial understanding of God’s will. The new covenant would reflect a new way of understanding what true faithfulness to the law would be under Christ’s authority. This view does justice to “both are preserved” (5:38 nkjv) because it sees the revealed will of God as present in both old and new. But limiting Jesus’ words to apply to time in history alone misses his point.
t Old system of spirituality versus new system. This view sees continuity in the revealed will of God, both in the Old Testament Scripture and in the New Testament message of Christ. The old cloth and wineskins referred to the old system of application of the law (rigid, legalistic) as typified by the worst teaching of the Pharisees. The old forms and traditions were characterized by the sorrow of fasting. The new attitude of spirituality is characterized by the joy of feasting as seen in Christ and his disciples. New attitudes and methods would be needed. When new attitudes are present, both the understanding of the will of God in Scripture and the new forms will be preserved.
The Christian church was never meant to be a sect or adaptation of Judaism. Instead, Christ fulfills the intent of the Old Testament Scripture. The law reveals the nature and will of God; Jesus Christ reveals the nature and will of God. But while the law could only point out sin and condemn people, Jesus Christ gave his life to bring forgiveness of sin and salvation. These parables speak of Jesus’ entire mission and the new era he inaugurated by his entrance into human history.
The “new wine” was the newness of the gospel as exemplified in the person of Jesus Christ (John 2:1-11). Like old wineskins, the Pharisees and indeed the entire religious system of Judaism had become too rigid to accept Jesus, who could not be contained in their traditions or rules. Their understanding of faithfulness to the law had become unsuitable for the fresh, dynamic power of Christ’s message. They were the self-appointed guardians of the “old garment” and the “old wineskins.”
Tradition
Someone has said that the seven last words of a church are: “We’ve never done it that way before.” How do you react to change? Do you welcome it, fear it, embrace it, run away from it? The church is an institution with a tremendous heritage and tradition, much of it going all the way back to Jesus and the apostles, and some of it going back beyond that to the Old Testament forebears. These traditions should be respected but not worshiped. Jesus said as much in Luke 5:36-38, when he said that new wine must be put into new wineskins. Give yourself a quick mental examination: How often do you say things like “That will never work” or “Our last pastor never did it that way”? If those words sound familiar, you may need to ask God to help you stop idolizing tradition and start allowing him to work in your life and the life of your church in new and fresh ways.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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Eden
unregistered
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posted
Matthew 9:17
Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break and the wine runs out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.
Mark 2:22
And no man puts new wine into old bottles: else the new wine does burst the bottles, and the wine is spilled, and the bottles will be marred: but new wine must be put into new bottles.
Luke 5:37
And no man puts new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.
Assuming that Jesus was NOT referring in this parable to ACTUAL old wineskins, and assuming that Jesus had a SPIRITUAL application in mind, what in your opinion WAS Jesus referring to in that small parable?
with love, Eden
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