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Topic: why does the evangelical church insist that disabilities are the result of the fall?
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epouraniois
unregistered
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posted
the reason stated was for purposely making graven images to bow down to, and this instruction is for Irael who were made a seperate nation. This didn't effect anyone else:
Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me
Deu 5:9 says the same thing and for the same reason.
And below, again it is specific and not general. It is to Israel, but God here states that He will not bring this to bear upon them in answer to this prayer:
Num 14:16 Because the LORD was not able to bring this people into the land which he swore unto them therefore he hath slain them in the wilderness.
Num 14:17 And now, I beseech thee, let the power of my Lord be great, according as thou hast spoken, saying,
Num 14:18 The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.
Num 14:19 Pardon, I beseech thee, the iniquity of this people according unto the greatness of thy mercy, and as thou hast forgiven this people, from Egypt even until now.
Num 14:20 And the LORD said, I have pardoned according to thy word
Again in Exo 34:7, we find the Lord makes a covenatn with them instead.
I feel it is essential to acknowledge that God was speaking to who He was speaking to, and that this concerned the law and the Hebrews. It did not concern those to whom it was not addressed.
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WhiteEagle
Advanced Member
Member # 3728
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posted
This is very complicated and I'm glad that God is the One in control.
There is Bibical basis for many reasons for disabilities.
The Old Testament says that certain sins will bring a "curse" to a certain amount of subsequent generations. That's why the disciples asked Jesus if the man had sinned or if his parents had sinned. They were basing it on the scriptures from the Old Testament.
We know the Lord created us all in the womb. He had the say on how we are made.
We know from the Bible that the Fall brought sin into the world and sin brings death.
We certainly do not have the right or the knowledge to be able to judge why one particular person has a disability. Even if we did have the inside track, what could we as humans even do about it? God is Sovereign and while I do feel that all sickness, disease and disabilities are are result of the Fall and the fact that the world is Fallen, God is the one who still controls the outcomes.
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
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epouraniois
unregistered
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posted
There are many things I do not understand. Many.
The church which is the body of Christ is like unto a temple. It is growing. And it is to be an habitation of God through the Spirit. This can be a great source of satisfaction and joy to every member of that body.
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. He did not create them empty, but to be inhabited. The earth became empty. There was darkness. So the earth was again prepared for inhabitants. They were placed in a garden.
Now the heavens and the earth were a creation. And so was man. We see, dimly at first, that man was also created to be inhabited. He was created in the likeness of the image of God. God came to the earth and tabernacled among men in the likeness of sinful flesh. For God was the Word, and it was the Word that walked with men.
The Lord prayed for a unity of Himself and His disciples. And this unity also included the Father. For the oneness He asked for was that He should be in His disciples and the Father in Him. The great apostle to the Gentiles realized the truth of this indwelling of God by the Spirit. He realized that when in the flesh he was weak, it was at that very time he was strong. For then the Lord could and did work through the apostle.
The man who believes unto life age-abiding must realize his identification with Christ. First in His death; and then in resurrection. But in the latter it is not the man that lives, but Christ in him. To that extent the man of God becomes an habitation. And for what purpose? Christ not only lives in the believer, but also works through the believer. The Acts of the apostles is a continuation of what the Lord Jesus Christ both began to do and teach when He walked on the earth. But then in the Acts, He did this through the apostles.
Man was made in the beginning the to be an habitation of God. He was to work the works of God. Angels might have done this. But God chose man to do it. And that is the reason that man was created without any of the instincts that are found in the animals. God wants to direct our lives Himself, personally.
Now we can begin to see why that a man without the indwelling Deity is a dangerous derelict on the sea of life. He is like a ship without a rudder. He cannot be compared to the beast. He is far worse. The beast cannot imagine and do the things that a godless man will.
Men, indwelt by the Creator have done great exploits. Such have written the Scriptures. God put words in their mouths. So the Scriptures have been God breathed. The apostles went out and did greater things than their Lord did. He told them that they would. It was like the double portion of Spirit upon Elisha after Elijah was taken away.
The believer is given a new nature or spirit in which God may dwell. The believer has only to make himself available so that God can work through him. This is the secret of the Christian life.
Another secret of Christian life is that often God cannot work and dwell in the beleiver until the believer is so caught up in the flesh that the flesh is done in by the god of this world, i.e., Satan.
At least that is what happened to me, a believer and not a doer...till my accident, wherein the Lord sought advantage in the fact Satan could no longer distract me by my flesh, leaving me to do nothing but yeild.
ADDITIONALLY, it is not the Lord who brings these tragic births into play, NO, it is man, with their pestisides, rat poison in the toothpaste, and all the uncleaness that even doctors knew nothing of only 120 years ago, such as cleaning a wound.
Also, sometimes when children are born in tragity, we find a positive unity formed with like situated peoples who then find strenght in the Lord through personal experiences born of grief strengthened by the Lord.
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Kindgo
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Member # 2
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posted
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him
Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002
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Eduardo Grequi
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Member # 3984
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posted
The taboo of soceity expresses that if something is imperfect it is result of sin in the family line. This has been something that has been even rooted in Judaism as well. When Jesus was healing on many occassions his disciples asked "who sinned his parents or himself?"
This particular statement has been absorbed in the early days of Christiandom until now.
God has an unique plan to help each believer becomes there fullest potential if the believer is willing to be molded in someone unique.
I remember reading that Easter Sunday in Kentucky the Pastor of a local church woke up late- being fustrated to get ready- he was 2 hours late. The Choir Mistress, was car won't start up and non of the buses made it back to church in time at all. Some 40 minutes later the Pastor pulled in and found that a f-4 tornado had ripped thru the Church and neighboring block. No one was hurt nor died because no one could show up on time. I think this is the hand of God when he intervenes in the issues of man. What seemed to be evily planned God meant good to come out of it.
Posts: 771 | From: Belvidere, IL | Registered: Oct 2004
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Chaplain Bob
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Member # 5019
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posted
Because God created sin and sickness (God admits to creating everything) as a consequence of the fall.
I know there are many Believers who will deny that God created evil but what's your point?
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In His Service,
Bob Allen
Posts: 209 | From: Checotah, Oklahoma | Registered: Aug 2005
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helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
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posted
Another great question from Glen:
quote:
Why does God expressly take credit for creating disabilities (Exodus 4:11)? If these are God's doing, then why does the evangelical church insist that disabilities are the result of the fall, or of Satan's work?
Here is your scripture, Glen:
Exodus 4:10 ¶ And Moses said unto the LORD, O my Lord, I am not eloquent, neither heretofore, nor since thou hast spoken unto thy servant: but I am slow of speech, and of a slow tongue.
11 And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man’s mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?
Here is another from the New Testament that also agrees with your point:
John 11:4 When Jesus heard that, he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby.
John 9:3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.
I would say to you this:
It is very difficult for man...even Christian men to surrender to the soverignity of God. It is a life long process in fact for the Christian. We cling to our humanistic ideas. Stating that God would not allow man to be born much less cause man to be born with some disability for God's soverign purpose is something that man does to compensate for his lack of understanding of the soverignity of God and his lack of being able to see a begger picture than is the picture of God.
The truth is that both things happen. There are times when men are born with disbilities that are the result of sin in the world.
There are times that men are born normal and become disabled because of sin in the world.
There are times that God causes a man to be born with disability for HIS soverign purpose and according to HIS soverign will and he can do this because he is GOD.
The one thing that we can know is that God's ways are not our ways and while things may look one way or that... God is always good and always just.
I say that because we tend to judge God based on our limited vision of what we can see in this earth and thus we look and say what do you mean God made some one blind... how horrible! But we do not know God's purpose and we may in this life never know God's purpose... this life is a speck of dust in the scheme of things according to GOD's vision and plan for this earth, mankind, and even eternity.
I just watched a movie last night about a young man born in Guana (sp) West Africa. He was born without a tibia in a land where most believed that it was curse or because of sin that people were born disabled; this made the life of 2 million disabled people in Guana to be unspeakable.. they were destined to beg for a sustinance, to crawl around on their bent and broken limbs through the dirt, some to even be killed or abandoned by their families. But this young man was born to a mother that said... you will never beg! You will make the most out of what God has delt you for a life and this man changed a country and made a place better for 2 million diabled people.... greater works than I do will you do? Yes, I think so!
This man was a believer in Jesus.
So, the church that professes that disability only comes because of sin does not speak the whole truth and they do not fully understand the soverignity of God. We are all works in progress. Not perfect... just forgiven and being perfected.
Also, I think that we do not fully understand Adam. Most believe that Adam was perfect. This leads us to think that all disability must be because of sin, but the Bible does not say that. I do not believe that Adam was perfect. I believe that Adam was naked and not ashamed... he did not know that he was less than perfect till he ate from the tree. Again, I believe that there is none perfect, but God and we are all part of God's plan that was from the beginning to beget us of God that we be not imperfect creations, but perfected men, God all in all.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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