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Topic: Why does the church say God did not create evil
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epouraniois
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Hebrew is in reality, Word Pictures. And just as we use Figures of Speech, from Time Immemorial has it been so.
There is more about "the king of Tyre" in Ezek. 28:11-19 than was literally true of "the prince of Tyre" (vv. 1-10). The words can be understood only of the mightiest and most exalted supernatural being that God ever created; and this for the purpose of showing how great would be his fall. The history must be true to make the prophecy of any weight.
Again, the word rendered "subtle" in Gen. 3:1 means wise, in a good sense as well as in a bad sense. In Ezek. 28:12 we have the good sense, "Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom"; and the bad sense in v. 17, "thou hast corrupted thy wisdom" (referring, of course, to his fall). So the word rendered "subtle" is rendered "prudent" in Prov. 1:4; 8:12; 12:23; 14:8; and in a bad sense in Job 15:5. 1Sam. 23:22. Ps. 83:3.
The word "beast" also, in Gen. 3:1, chay, denotes a living being, and it is as wrong to translate zoa "beasts" in Rev. 4, as it is to translate chay "beast" in Gen. 3. Both mean living creature. Satan is thus spoken of as being "more wise than any other living creature which Jehovah Elohim had made". Even if the word "beast" be retained, it does not say that either a serpent or Satan was a "beast", but only that he was "more wise" than any other living being. We cannot conceive Eve as holding converse with a snake, but we can understand her being fascinated (*1) by one, apparently "an angel of light" (i.e. a glorious angel), possessing superior and supernatural knowledge.
When Satan is spoken of as a "serpent", it is the Figure 'Hypocatastasis' or 'Implication'; it no more means snake than it does when Dan is so called in Gen. 49:17; or an animal when Nero is called a "lion" (2Tim. 4:17), or when Herod is called a "fox" (Luke 13:32); or when Judah is called "a lion's whelp". It is the same figure when "doctrine" is called "leaven" (Matt. 16:6). It shows that something much more real and truer to truth is impressively; and is intended to be a figure of something much more real than the letter of the word.
It is the same with the other Figures used in v. 14, "On thy belly shalt thou go". This Figure means infinitely more than the literal belly of flesh and blood; just as the words "heel" and "head" do in v. 15. It paints for the eyes of our mind the picture of Satan's ultimate humiliation; for prostration was ever the most eloquent sign of subjection. When it is said "our belly cleaveth unto the ground" (Ps. 44:25), it denotes such a prolonged prostration and such a depth of submission as could never be conveyed or expressed in literal words.
So with the other prophecy, "Dust shalt thou eat". This is not true to the letter, or to fact, but it is all the more true to truth. It tells of constant, continuous disappointment, failure, and mortification; as when deceitful ways are spoken of as feeding on deceitful food, which is "sweet to a man, but afterward his mouth shall be filled with gravel" (Prov. 20:17). This does not mean literal "gravel", but something far more disagreeable. It means disappointment so great that it would gladly be exchanged for the literal "gravel". So when Christians are rebuked for "biting and devouring one another" (Gal. 3:14, 15), something more heart-breaking is meant than the literal words used in the Figure.
When "His enemies shall lick the dust" (Ps. 72:9) they will not do it on their knees with their literal tongues; but they will be so prostrated and so utterly defeated, that no words could literally depict their overthrow and subjugation. If a serpent was afterward called a nachash, it was because it was more shining than any other creature; and if it became known as "wise", it was not because of its own innate positive knowledge, but of its wisdom in hiding away from all observation; and because of its association with one of the names of Satan (that old serpent) who "beguiled Eve" (2Cor. 11:3, 14).
(*1) It is remarkable that the verb nachash always means to enchant, fascinate, bewitch; or of one having and using occult knowledge. See Gen. 30:27; 44:5, 15. Lev. 19:26. Deut. 18:10. 1Kings 20:33. 2Kings 17:17; 21:6. 2Chron. 33:6. So also is the noun used in Num. 23:23; 24:1.
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Thunderz7
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Member # 31
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Ezk.28:
11 ¶ Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
3 thought lines of this section of scripture that I know of
a - literally and only about the king of Tyrus
b - about satan
c - literally about king of Tyrus and about satan
Those who bellieve (a) probably won't find anything in these scriptures relating to this topic.
(b) and (c) may find interest in what is "created" perfect, contrasted to iniquity being "found".
T7
Posts: 1113 | From: Northeast Alabama | Registered: Jun 2002
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epouraniois
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posted
Adv.Christian ,
You are exactly right about God being the one who declares what evil is and what it is not.
The problem we must all confront and overcome is not even so much finding what a word means, but acknoweldging God's meaning and definition afterwords. The fleshy mind doesn't like to unlearn, as it means we must confess our understanding in the end, 'profiteth nothing'.
This flesh, "the teaching of Jesus" declares, "profiteth nothing" (John 6.63); and in it "dwelleth no good thing" (Rom. 7:18). But, this is the teaching which man will not receive. Rather, we dismiss what words God has used, in the way He has used them in favour of our own understanding, which 'profiteth nothing'.
How to find the meaning of a word.
Isa 28:13
But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little;().
'not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth, comparing'
Note that the word for 'evil' is never translated sin, and the last thing we should want to do is add our ideas in with what God has revealed as being His ideas. So whatever it is, it is not the same as sin, and that makes sense because God cannot sin.
One thing the Concordance is not.
It is not a Hebrew or Greek Dictionary. What is it then?
The Concordance is a listing of all the different translations any single word has been translated to. And where they are located. And some other words in the family tree. But not a definition.
We therefore must look up how all those other words are used before we can receive and acknowledge God's definition of any word.
Why is Websters no good?
Because it is nearly impossible to translate a word into another language without degregation in the origina meaning of a word. And it is impossible for a word for word translation from one language to another. That's why you hear people say that there is no word for () in the English. I know that sounds wierd, but it is true.
So we can easily look up the word for 'evil', here is the Concordant number and word:
H7451
רעה רע
ra‛ râ‛âh
Evil is translated in other places
calamity' Ps 141:5;
'adversity' 1 Sam 10:19. Ps 94:13. Ecc 7:14;
'grief' Neh 2:10. Prov 15:16, Ecc 2:17 Johah 4:6;
'affliction' Num 11:11;
'misery' Ecc 8:6;
'trouble' Ps 41:1;
'sore' Deut 6:22;
'noisome' Ezek 14:15, 21;
also 'harm', 'ill', and 'mischief'.
And these are the words the Holy Spirit has given us, these are the words the Holy Spirit teacheth. These are the understanding of God as to what His definition of the word evil is.
I thought it meant something else too if that's any consolation, but that is why I try to look up every word in every verse and also every verse that every word is used elsewhere.
Sometimes I spend days just on one verse, but digging deep is the only way I know to plumb the depths wherein lie these treasures.
"Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth ()". 1Co 2:13
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Member # 15
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posted
Good to see you Brother, I for one have missed you too! I liked the jest of your points but I just wanted to comment on this one statement:
quote:
Without the laws of God there was no sin or in other words no evil.
I dont think this is correct. Here is why...
Romans 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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Adv.Christian
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Member # 3453
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posted
Hello all;
It has been a while since I was here, I have missed everybody. On this please allow me to ask a question. What is "evil"? Is evil not anything God declares it to be? Without the laws of God there was no sin or in other words no evil. God is the authority of what is or is not evil.
Without God and His creation there would be no evil ergo indeed God not only establised what is evil but indeed created the existance however not the action. The actions of evil fall to His creation, ie you and I. As always my love to all and May God Bless.
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A person talking can not be listening; A person not listening can not be learning.
Posts: 299 | From: Raleigh/North Carolina | Registered: Jun 2004
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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epouraniois:
quote:
And this is the reason it is necessary to look at the ancient languages, to find out what the words meant then, how they were used then.
Nice, epouraniois! On point!
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Introduction
One of the most common reasons skeptics reject the existence of God is due to the presence of evil in this universe. They reason that a perfect God would not create a universe in which evil exists. Skeptics claim that since God created everything that God must have also created evil. They even cite Bible verses, such as:
* I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7, KJV)
* Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? (Amos 3:6, KJV)
* Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good? (Lamentations 3:38)
However, evil is not really a created thing. You can't see, touch, feel, smell or hear evil. It is not one of the fundamental forces of physics, nor does it consist of matter, energy, or the spatial dimensions of the universe. Still, skeptics like to claim that God created evil and cite the Bible to "prove" their point. The Bible is quite clear that God is not the author of evil and insists that He is incapable of doing so.1
Love that King James translation!
Skeptics love the KJV so much, one would think that they were still back in medieval England. Use of this translation is problematic these days, since it uses an archaic version of modern English, which doesn't necessarily mean the same things today as when it was translated over 400 years ago. In addition, the KJV was produced using a limited number of medieval manuscripts that did not represent the earliest Alexandrian set of manuscripts.
What do the modern translations say?
* The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these. (Isaiah 45:7, NASB)
* I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7, NIV)
Isaiah 45:7 contrasts opposites. Darkness is the opposite of light. However, evil is not the opposite of peace. The Hebrew word translated "peace" is shâlôm,2 which has many meanings, mostly related to the well being of individuals. Râ‛âh,3 the Hebrew word translated "evil" in the KJV often refers to adversity or calamity. There are two forms of the word. Strong's H7451a most often refers to moral evil, whereas Strong's H7451b (the form used here) most often refers to calamity or distress. Obviously, "calamity" is a better antonym of "peace" than "evil."
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Amos 3:6
* If a trumpet is blown in a city will not the people tremble? If a calamity occurs in a city has not the LORD done it? (Amos 3:6, NASB)
* When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble? When disaster comes to a city, has not the LORD caused it? (Amos 3:6, NIV)
Likewise, Amos 3:6 uses the same word, râ‛âh, referring to calamity or disaster. the context (a disaster happening to a city) does not refer to moral evil.
Lamentations 3:38
* Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both calamities and good things come? (Lamentations 3:38, NIV)
* Is it not from the mouth of the Most High That both good and ill go forth? (Lamentations 3:38, NASB)
The King James Version of Lamentations 3:38 seems to suggest that God speaks both good and evil. However, if one reads the verse in context, the preceding verses indicate that God does not do or approve of evil.4 The verse following indicates that people should not complain in view of their sins.5 What the verse really is saying that God decrees times of good things and times of judgment. Lamentations was written by Jeremiah during a time of judgment, when Judah had gone off into exile. Jeremiah was chosen by God to be the prophet to tell Judah to reform or be judged. The people did not believe Jeremiah, and, therefore, fell under God's judgment. In Lamentations 3:38, the word translated "good" is ṭôb (Strong's H2896).6 The word usually refers to good things5 as opposed to bad things. Again, râ‛âh3 does not refer to moral evil, but calamities, in this verse. Likewise, the Bible commentaries indicate that the verse refers to God's judgment based upon people's sin.7
Conclusion
God is not the author of evil.8 However, God does reward and punish on the basis of good and bad behavior. Therefore, God does bring judgment and calamity (either directly or through human authorities) on those who rebel.9 God will ultimately judge all people, since rebels will not be allowed in the new, perfect creation.
Source cited: http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/evil.html
Posts: 1051 | Registered: Apr 2005
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epouraniois
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And this is the reason it is necessary to look at the ancient languages, to find out what the words meant then, how they were used then. The quickest way to do this is to look up all the places where a word occurrs to see how the Holy Spirit has defined His usages of such words. Much quicker than learning Greek, Hebrew, and Chaldean, imo, but will also set one well on the way to learning these languages too.
Lets look and see:
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Create.
Hebrew. The Poel Participle of the verb bârâ' (create) which, with 'evil', requires the rendering 'bring about'. Not the same form as in v8, 12, or v18, in connection with the earth. Jer. 18:11, the verb is yâtsar, to frame, or mold. In Amos 3:6 it is ‛âśâh, to bring about. A word of wide meaning; its sense has to be determined by its context.
Moreover, it is essential that the subject and object of the grammar given be not only followed through to completion within the given context, but also for these to be the only thing in mind, else we add to the word of God, even if subconsciously, the last thing we should want is to add our ideas to God's Holy Words:
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Here, disturbance in contrast with 'peace'.
Evil.
Never rendered 'sin'. God brings calamity about as the inevitable consequence of sin. It is rendered 'calamity' in Ps 141:5; 'adversity' in 1 Sam 10:19. Ps 94:13. Ecc 7:14; 'grief' in Neh 2:10. Prov 15:16, Ecc 2:17 Johah 4:6; 'affliction' in Num 11:11; 'misery' in Ecc 8:6; 'trouble' in Ps 41:1; 'sore' in Deut 6:22; 'noisome' in Ezek 14:15, 21; also 'harm', 'ill', and 'mischief'.
Therefore, the meaning of Isa 45:7 does not state in the Hebrew that God creates evil, being a Figure of speech. It is most important to notice these. It is absolutely necessary for true interpretation. God's Word is made up of "words which the Holy Ghost teacheth" (1Cor. 2:13. 1Thess. 2:13. 2Tim. 3:16. 2Pet. 1:21, &c.).
A "Figure of speech" relates to the form in which the words are used. It consists in the fact that a word or words are used out of their ordinary sense, or place, or manner, for the purpose of attracting our attention to what is thus said. A Figure of speech is a deigned and legitimate departure from the laws of language, in order to emphasize what is said. Hence in such Figures we have the Holy Spirit's own marking, so to speak, of His own words.
This peculiar form or unusual manner may not be true, or so true, to the literal meaning of the words; but it is more true to their real sense, and truer to truth.
Figures are never used but for the sake of emphasis. They can never, therefore, be ignored. Ignorance of Figures of speech has led to the grossest errors, which have been caused either from taking literally what is figurative, or from taking figuratively what is literal.
The Greeks and Romans named some hundreds of such figures. The only work on Biblical Figures of speech in the English language is by Dr. Bullinger (Published by Eyre and Spottiswoode, London, 1898.). He has classified some 217 separate figures.
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Kindgo
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These verses fit in both topics.. ![[youpi]](graemlins/youpi.gif) -
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him
Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Member # 15
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Here is another great question from Glen:
quote:
Why does the church say God did not create evil, when he himself claims that he did in Isaiah 45:7, Lamentations 3:38, and Amos 3:6?
I will answer this with my understanding. I post this with the intent that there may be someone here who understands this better than I.
I think that the reason that the church says this is because they fail to realize that anything that God created was less than God and thus evil to some degree.
The moment something is created it is not God as God is not created and has no beginning.
I actually believe that this is what Adam and Eve learned of themselves when they ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Jesus said that there is only ONE that is good and that is God. That means that all that is not God is not Good.
If evil is the absence of Good... then all that God created had to have had some evil.
I believe that this is why God made it that man could become begotten (born) of God and not created as was Adam... that eventually God could be all in all...and all would be good
1 Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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