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Topic: the Law and the Christian
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blackdiamond
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by David:
You can post here asking others what they believe, but you are not welcome to teach SDA on this message board. This message board is for teaching the truths of God's word, not for trying to put people back under the law.
First, I would guess that you have a misunderstanding of my belief relating to the law if you are assuming that I believe that works save me. If I use the Bible to support my personal beliefs I would expect any honest Christian to show me, using the Bible, where I'm wrong.
You are absolutely correct that we are not under the law. There is nothing that we can do to earn salvation. The thief on the cross is proof of this fact. But faith without works is dead. The Holy Spirit living in our lives gives us the power to live according to God's will. Good works are evidence of our faith and relationship with our Lord.
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KnowHim
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by blackdiamond:
So can I assume that if I post a belief that you consider to have SDA roots I will get banned?
You assume correctly.
You can post here asking others what they believe, but you are not welcome to teach SDA on this message board. If you has a question about it where you want an answer. That would be fine, but if you start debating the answer with SDA doctrine you will be removed from this message board. I have ask you not to promote the SDA on this message board and that is what I mean.
This message board is for teaching the truths of God's word, not for trying to put people back under the law.
Thank you,
David
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Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
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becauseHElives
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I would love it very much if you, or anyone really, could put together the similarities of the churches (plural) proceeding the revelation of the mystery, where church is never plural, but one, the one body, with Christ as the Head. Not the King of the church, but the King of the Jews.
The book of Revelation refers to Yeshua as King of Kings and Lord of Lords
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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blackdiamond
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It appears that I totally misjudged this board. It appeared that it supported open discussion.
So can I assume that if I post a belief that you consider to have SDA roots I will get banned?
Is is acceptable for me to ask you to prove some of your beliefs that I have never figured how someone could reach that conclusion or do you prefer to not have your beliefs challenged? My whole point for joining the online boards is to have people help me "test" my beliefs.
It is evident that there are several misconceptions of the SDA faith. My intent was never to "teach" SDA doctrine, but rather to discuss some of the differences that were specifically lised early in this thread.
May I ask what beliefs are acceptable to profess on this board? ![[1zhelp]](graemlins/1zhelp.gif)
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KnowHim
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quote:
Originally posted by blackdiamond:
I'm a new member and have not read everything posted on this thread/topic, but I did note that there was some discussion/questions for Seventh-day Adventists and I am planning to start a thread where we can discuss some of the unique beliefs that I have. Also, I will start by posting a little information about The Clear Word as I noted some interest above. I am happy to try and answer any questions and always try to provide a solid response. Just an FYI advertisement.
We do not teach nor do we let others teach the doctrine of the Seventh-day Adventists on this message board. You will need to do that on another message board. You are more then welcome to stay on the message board, but you may not teach the doctgrine of the Seventh-day Adventists. It will only get you banned. We are no longer under the law as Jesus Christ came to set us free. This is not up for debate.
The Holy Bible, King James Version
1Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. 2Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. 5For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. 7Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth? 8This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you. 9A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. 10I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be. 11And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased. 12I would they were even cut off which trouble you.
13For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. 14For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Galatians 5:1 through Galatians 5:14 (KJV)
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Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. 5For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth? This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you. A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be. And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased. I would they were even cut off which trouble you.
For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. - Galatians 5:1-18
We should always pattern our life exclusively by the standards of Jesus Christ. Submiting ourself to His yoke, and His alone; and always be careful never to place a yoke on others that is not of Jesus Christ. It is all about Jesus and not about man’s rules. We can know all there is about theology and still be told, depart from me I knew you not. Get to know the one that will stand with you and pay your sin dept on judgement day. My calling is to know Him. To know Jesus Christ.
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Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
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epouraniois
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quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
[Isa 42:6] ‘I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;’
It was hidden in the Old Covenant what Yahweh was going to do, but only from the view point mankind could not conceive what Yahweh was going to do.
There is nothing in the New Covenant that was not spoken by the prophets in the Old Covenant.
The mystery that Paul was addressing is not as you suppose, that Yahweh caused Paul or any one else to forget about the Nation Israel, but the mystery/secret is that Yeshua would come and be one in those that would give themselves to Him. Obey His Commandments.
Perhaps you are correct, but I must stick with Scripture on this, at least the way I read it, when the apostle declares he is making known a secret that was not revealed, and this secret pertains to a called out company who was chosen from before the foundation of the world, whose blessings are all spiritual and in the heavenly places, I just gotta go with that. I can't in any way find the covenants of Israel being given to anyone else, and as far as the Hebrew tribes being a blessing to the nations, I can only surmise with Paul, that he is given this revelation specifically to those called the Uncircumsion by the Circumcision
It is to this church we find given the warning that we can be found ashamed by not rightly dividing the word of truth, that in this newly revealed and created company are they who were sent the salvation of God. sent, an sent one, (apostelo) with a specific message to a specific people for His specific purpose, just as all the sent ones God had sent, but this secret was hid in God, and 'from ages and from generations', having been chosen and called, naming this church His body, the fulness of Him that filleth all in all. Please read the first two chapters of the first letter Paul wrote after that third and final, most dreadful quote of Is6.9.
There is nothing similar regarding the church created after Israel's judicial blindness and subsequent dismissal of themselves. Paul writes of it extensively in several of the latter chapters of the last book written during the Acts, being Romans.
I would love it very much if you, or anyone really, could put together the similarities of the churches (plural) preceeding the revelation of the mystery, where church is never plural, but one, the one body, with Christ as the Head. Not the King of the church, but the King of the Jews.
I have only found a few similarities, we all fall under the sin of Adam, we all are in need of a Saviour, and we all are called into an inheritance not of our chosing, but of God's. Some chosen since the foundation of the world, some chosen before. some chosen for an earthly inheritance, some for one far above all heavens of heavens.
let me ask you a question in like turn.
can you quote me where the church of the present period is given the hope of their callig? in other words, what is the hope of your calling? where are the verses and who do they address exactly? I think that would be a good study for us all.
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blackdiamond
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I'm a new member and have not read everything posted on this thread/topic, but I did note that there was some discussion/questions for Seventh-day Adventists and I am planning to start a thread where we can discuss some of the unique beliefs that I have. Also, I will start by posting a little information about The Clear Word as I noted some interest above. I am happy to try and answer any questions and always try to provide a solid response. Just an FYI advertisement.
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Hitch
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quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
Isa 42:6] ‘I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; [/b]
It was hidden in the Old Covenant what Yahweh was going to do, but only from the view point mankind could not conceive what Yahweh was going to do.
There is nothing in the New Covenant that was not spoken by the prophets in the Old Covenant
Perf! quote:
What was hidden in the secret counsels of the Almighty was this: that an entirely new creation, made up of a diverse assortment of people including both Jews and Gentiles, possessing incredible spiritual riches (Eph 3:8), would come into existence.
Perf! quote:
The union is complete: Christ in the believer, and the believer in Christ. Someone has given a crude analogy that, while imperfect, might help illustrate. Consider a bottle in the ocean -- the ocean water is in the bottle, and the bottle is in the ocean. The Lord Jesus alluded to this mutual indwelling just before He was crucified. He said: [John 15:4-5] ‘Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abides in me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing’.
Note that to realize the full value of this union, we must ‘abide’ in the Lord. ‘Abide’ means to dwell or remain; we are to always be in conscious union with the Lord Jesus.
I referred above to the Church as a new creation. Actually, in the mystery there are two new creations: the individual believer and the Church.
The believer is born spiritually and becomes a new creation when he is baptized into Christ [2 Cor 5:17] ‘Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creation: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new’. (The King James version says ‘new creature’, but ‘new creation’ is more accurate.)
The mystical Body of Christ was created at Pentecost [Acts 2:1-4a] ‘And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost...’.
Any reference to ‘church’ in the Old Testament economy, as in Acts 7:38, implies an assembly of people, not the body of Christ. The word ‘church’ can also refer to an assembly in the NT, as in Paul’s letters to the churches, but the new creation is the ‘Church’ with a capital ‘C’; the Body of Christ and the espoused Bride of Christ: [2 Cor 11:2b] ‘I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ’.
This Body includes all regenerated Christians from Pentecost to the event described in [1 Th 4:16-17] ‘For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord’. The coming of the Groom for His espoused Bride! The greatest marriage ceremony in the history of the universe!
Hmmmmmmm Great stuff so far, especially in contrast to the Acts 28 DF.So not to quibble but what of those who had the Spirit if Christ before Pentecost?/ quote:
That is the mystery hidden from past ages -- an entirely new organism with the Living Lord Jesus as the head, composed of diverse members each indwelt by the Spirit of Christ.
The key to this incredible work of redemption -- the event that opened the windows of Heaven and enabled the outpouring of God’s grace upon the human race -- is the cross.
Yup
Take care
Hitch
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becauseHElives
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[Isa 42:6] ‘I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;’
It was hidden in the Old Covenant what Yahweh was going to do, but only from the view point mankind could not conceive what Yahweh was going to do.
There is nothing in the New Covenant that was not spoken by the prophets in the Old Covenant.
The mystery that Paul was addressing is not as you suppose, that Yahweh caused Paul or any one else to forget about the Nation Israel, but the mystery/secret is that Yeshua would come and be one in those that would give themselves to Him. Obey His Commandments.
Jhn 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Jhn 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Jhn 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
1st John 2:3-7
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
The Lord Jesus Christ in you and you in Him
[1 Cor 2:7,8] But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
[Eph 3:3,4] How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
[Rom 16:25] Now to him that is of power to establish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
[Col 4:3] Withal praying also for us, that God would open unto us a door of utterance, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in bonds:
[Eph 5:32] This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
[Col 1:26,27] Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
While the New Testament speaks of several different mysteries, there is one that stands out in greatness of importance. It is revealed to us by the apostle Paul, and contains the details of God’s grand redemptive plan . I say the details of the plan, because redemption in general is a theme that pervades the whole Bible.
So what exactly was the mystery? That God would send a Messiah to save His people Israel was not a mystery. Neither was it a mystery that Gentiles would be saved . For example, [Isa 42:6] ‘I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;’ . It was even revealed that the Messiah would be a suffering servant in Isaiah 53. What was the great mystery?
What was hidden in the secret counsels of the Almighty was this: that an entirely new creation, made up of a diverse assortment of people including both Jews and Gentiles, possessing incredible spiritual riches (Eph 3:8), would come into existence.
This new creation is described as being in a living, organic union with the resurrected and glorified Lord Jesus Christ. It is called ‘the Body of Christ’, or the ‘Bride of Christ’, or ‘the Church’. It is not an organization, but an organism. The Lord Jesus is the head of this unique organism: [Eph 5:23b] ‘Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body’. [1 Cor 12:27] ‘Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.’
The rules for joining organizations are pretty well defined, but how does one join an organism?
The New Testament says that members enter the Body by a supernatural operation -- by being baptized or immersed into it by the Holy Spirit. (The Greek ‘baptizo‘ means to immerse.) [Gal 3:27] ‘For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.’
This baptism into Christ is not a ceremony involving water (though that should follow), but a work of the Holy Spirit at the instant one is regenerated by faith in the Lord Jesus. It is a supernatural uniting of the believer with the glorified Christ and His body. It is the work of God from start to finish, but accompanied by faith on our part. [1 Cor 12:13] ‘For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.’
This placing of the believer into the Body results in what the apostle Paul meant by the phrase ‘in Christ’. Someone has counted over 150 times in his epistles where he used that terminology to describe the exalted position belonging to Christians. We are wholly identified with the Lord Jesus. It is a glorious event in the life of a believer when it sinks into his heart and mind what it means to be ‘in Christ’! For me personally, it was a life-transforming experience.
The other facet of the great mystery of redemption is this: the Lord Jesus Christ takes up permanent residence in the Christian the moment that he trusts the Savior. [Col 1:27] ‘To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:’ Isn’t that an awesome assertion? The Lord God Almighty, Creator of the heaven and the earth, the great, eternal I AM, indwells each believer! [Rom 8:9] ‘But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his’.
The union is complete: Christ in the believer, and the believer in Christ. Someone has given a crude analogy that, while imperfect, might help illustrate. Consider a bottle in the ocean -- the ocean water is in the bottle, and the bottle is in the ocean. The Lord Jesus alluded to this mutual indwelling just before He was crucified. He said: [John 15:4-5] ‘Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abides in me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing’.
Note that to realize the full value of this union, we must ‘abide’ in the Lord. ‘Abide’ means to dwell or remain; we are to always be in conscious union with the Lord Jesus.
I referred above to the Church as a new creation. Actually, in the mystery there are two new creations: the individual believer and the Church.
The believer is born spiritually and becomes a new creation when he is baptized into Christ [2 Cor 5:17] ‘Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creation: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new’. (The King James version says ‘new creature’, but ‘new creation’ is more accurate.)
The mystical Body of Christ was created at Pentecost [Acts 2:1-4a] ‘And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost...’.
Any reference to ‘church’ in the Old Testament economy, as in Acts 7:38, implies an assembly of people, not the body of Christ. The word ‘church’ can also refer to an assembly in the NT, as in Paul’s letters to the churches, but the new creation is the ‘Church’ with a capital ‘C’; the Body of Christ and the espoused Bride of Christ: [2 Cor 11:2b] ‘I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ’.
This Body includes all regenerated Christians from Pentecost to the event described in [1 Th 4:16-17] ‘For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord’. The coming of the Groom for His espoused Bride! The greatest marriage ceremony in the history of the universe!
That is the mystery hidden from past ages -- an entirely new organism with the Living Lord Jesus as the head, composed of diverse members each indwelt by the Spirit of Christ.
The key to this incredible work of redemption -- the event that opened the windows of Heaven and enabled the outpouring of God’s grace upon the human race -- is the cross.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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epouraniois
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quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
That God would send a Messiah to save His people Israel was not a mystery. Neither was it a mystery that Gentiles would be saved . For example, [Isa 42:6] ‘I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;’ . It was even revealed that the Messiah would be a suffering servant in Isaiah 53.
Paul was given a two fold ministry, see Acts 27, and up until Acts 28.28, where we find :
Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
we also find:
Act 28:20 For this cause therefore have I called for you, to see you, and to speak with you: because that for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.
But after Acts Paul is given his second ministry, where he is no longer a prisoner for the hope of Israel, and it is no longer to the Jew first, and no longer is he able to quote the OT, because, God has revealed what is given to us as the mystery.
the word mystery must not confound anyone, for it is simply the word 'secret'. when the Bible was translated, if we lived back then, I might ask you if you could keep a mystery, today I would prhase the question, can you keep a secret. there is nothing mysterious about the word mystery, and certainly not since God has told us what it is, and it is this:
That before the foundation of the world He chose in Christ a family who would have all spiritual blessings in heavenly places, who are the body of Christ with Christ the head of this one body called the church.
Nowhere in all of Scripture, right on up through to the end of Acts is there one word about having a hope to be in heavenly places, or seated with Christ. That is the secret that was 'hid in God', and declared to be unsearchable. It cannot be searched out because it wasn't hid in the Bible, it was hid in God.
This choosing was before the foundation of the world, unlike Israel's calling, which was from, or since, the foundation of the world. Israel's blessings are earthly, found in stock and in store, whereas the blessings of the church are every blessing which is spiritual, none withheld (eph1.3(first book after acts))revealed only after all Isrrael had heard (Rom10), and Israel's rejection and subsequent blindness at the end of Acts, they divorced themselves, Acts 28.25, where 'departed' is the word for divorce, then and only then was the salvation of God sent to all nations, and the secret no one knew about was revealed and is set forth in the prison epistles, where we find the inspired apostle saying that it is this which completes the word of God:
Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God;
Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints
to recap, Colossians 1:25 states that God chose him to be the vessel by which He would fulfill (Greek pleroo, "complete") the Word of God.
And this is not dependant upon Israel. This is salvation brought to the world that comes not from the blessings of Abraham Isacc and Jacob, but from a choosing in Christ made before the foundation of the world, yet, hid until God saw fit to reveal that He had retained a secret in Himself, while doing battle with a great spiritual foe we know as that old serpent of Genesis one, and Satan, the devil.
The 7 epistles written after Acts, after the kingdom offer to the Hebrew nation is set aside,are:
Ephesians
Colossians
Philippians
Titus
1 & 2 Timothy
Philemon
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Hitch
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Mid Acts and late Acts DF is a pair of strange animals.
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becauseHElives
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That God would send a Messiah to save His people Israel was not a mystery. Neither was it a mystery that Gentiles would be saved . For example, [Isa 42:6] ‘I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;’ . It was even revealed that the Messiah would be a suffering servant in Isaiah 53.
quote:
it was not written in the OT that the nations would be blessed through their fall.
But what was never made known, i.e. the secret 'hid in God' and revealed after Acts 28.28, was that the nations would be blessed through their fall:
what your saying sound like double talk to me...
in plain english a child like me can understand,
"What are you saying the mystery is that was not revealed until quote:
only made known after Acts 28.28
?"
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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epouraniois
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becauseHElives
no, not at all, for it is written and understood that all nations would be blessed through Abraham, via Israel:
Gen 18:18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him
Gen 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
But what was never made known, i.e. the secret 'hid in God' and revealed after Acts 28.28, was that the nations would be blessed through their fall:
during the Acts, Romans being the final book of the period, followed by 7 more epistles wherein the mystery is revealed, we find in Romans the gentiles are purposed in the OT thus:
Rom 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
Rom 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
It is still Israel's tree, Israel's table those gentiles sat at, but:
Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
makes a declaritive change, whereby the mystery, or secret, is revealed. prior to this Paul is able to state concisely that he had told them everything, nothing withheld:
Act 20:27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
but at no time did he speak of a company whose inheritance is spiritual and in heavenly places. therefore, when Paul declares later, after Acts 28.28, in the remaining 7 epistles, it is indeed a new gospel message written to what he declares is a new creation which is created in the heart of the believer.
but
he also writes that all thsoe believers in Asia turned away from this new revelation:
2Ti 1:15 This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.
and today it is much the same, only when a verse can be selected out from its given context for the help of some other teaching is any of these 7 epistles used. not many can accept that there is a family in heaven chosen, as it is written, from before the foundation (overthrow/terrible translation) of the world.
the prison epistles are a complete gospel in themselves, but the books written to God's other children are given us to read for our learning, not necessarily for our taking, for (the argument) it is these 7 prison epistles which distinclty have our name written on the envelope. they have been delievered, and, for the most part, laid aside in the taking up of other people's letters which were written expressly to them, having their names on the envelope, speaking to those who have their citezinship either on the earth or in the new jerusalem which comes down from heaven to the earth.
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becauseHElives
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If I understand you, epouraniois you are saying the “Mystery of the Gentiles being added into the Salvation of Yahweh” is not mentioned until …..
quote:
it was not written in the OT that the nations would be blessed through their fall.
in the letters written after their fall, rejection, and subswequent blindness, recorded in Acts 28.28, brings us the warnings about philosophies, which were already at work, for the aposlte chosen to reveal that secret had been hid in God and only made known after Acts 28.28
Am I correct in my understanding of your post?
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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epouraniois
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most certainly there was a people who were given the law, the testiment, the oracles of God, who had the fathers, and it is to them who were given the opportunity to repent and receive the times of refreshing, to what end? that they would be the channel of blessings to the nations.
it was not written in the OT that the nations would be blessed through their fall.
in the letters written after their fall, rejection, and subswequent blindness, recorded in Acts 28.28, brings us the warnings about philosophies, which were already at work, for the aposlte chosen to reveal that secret had been hid in God and only made known after Acts 28.28
how much more are they to be expected to be at work 2,000 years later, even now?
most people never stop to consider where we would be if God didn't reveal His secret after Israel's final rejection of the kingdom, which belong only to them, for they alone are promised the kingdom.
If there was no further revelation, we would only have the letters up through the Acts period which describe israel's rejection, and nothing about any heavenly inheritance. not one word is written of going to heaven prior to the revelation of the mystery. all we could read about is that Israel failed, and the appearance would be that the Satan/devil had won.
so what was it that God revealed after Israel had heard and rejected her kingdom? wasn't it that God will also have a family in heaven, that, even, one day, all things will come under His headship? But that only the church which is His body finds Christ as the head now, while Israel has plenty to be worked out concerning all that is written concerning her, the church which is His body finds for it's hope to be united with it's head in the heavenly places, not on the earth, not with Israel, not in the heavenly city, but far above all where Christ sits.
Paul, a Hebrew of the Hebrews, after Acts 28.28, writes, concerning his Jewishness, and the law, that if he were to continue on, he must leave those things which were in the past behind and press forward:
Phi 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Phi 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
why do people today ignore that which is written ad chose to not only do the opposite, but condemn those of us who do not try to take that which was given only to the Jews?
what is it called when one tries to take that which belongs to another?
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becauseHElives
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Yeshua / Jesus and the Commandments are inseparable.
Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Yeshua is the only foundation, but the Commandments are part of Him
1Cr 3:10-11
According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise master builder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
The Just Shall Live By Faith
Habakkuk 2:4
Hab 2:4 ... "Behold the proud, his soul is not upright in him; but the just shall live by his faith." (NKJ)
Habakkuk 2:4 is one of the greatest declarations of faith to be found in all the Bible. It presents a contrast between those who are arrogantly rebellious, and those who are humbly submissive. It reveals the striking difference between the proud and the just man. The future belongs to the righteous, while the wicked have no future. Wickedness carries with it the seeds of its own destruction (Psa 10:4; Pro 16:18). Pride, tyranny and evil cannot last, but the righteous shall live by faith (Hab 2:4).
In this immediate context, the pride of the Chaldeans would be their downfall, while the faithfulness of the righteous will be his salvation. Habakkuk says the Babylonians are self-centered and therefore doomed; the righteous are God-centered and therefore triumphant (Dan 4:30-32; Pro 3:5-6).
In other words, the righteous man trusts, not in himself, but in God. His faith is directed upward, not inward!
Herein is faith -- the ability to accept as reality what one cannot fully understand. The one who trusts in God is not troubled by the enigmas of life.
He knows that God does all things right and all things well. Running the universe is God's business, but the righteous man has a daily task to fulfill, and he will live by his faithfulness. He will trust and obey, even if he does not comprehend all of God's ways.
The Revell Bible Dictionary defines faith as "belief, confidence, trust, reliance. In the Bible, religious faith is a life-shaping attitude toward God. The person with faith considers God's revelation of himself and of truth to be certain and sure. The person with faith then responds to God with trust, love, and obedience."
"Biblical faith, then, has two aspects: on God's part there is an act of revelation that calls for a response; on man's part there is a response of faith that evaluates God's revelation as trustworthy and responds wholeheartedly to the Lord." 1
Acceptable service to God has always been based on active, obedient faith. Those who please God follow his instructions, regardless of their own understandings. How could Noah spend 120 years building the ark? What motivated Abraham to leave his homeland? How could he willingly take Isaac and offer him in sacrifice to God? What about Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses and Joshua? Consider also Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel and the prophets. What characteristic did all these individuals have in common? Faith! They were willing to trust and obey God!
This passage is quoted three times in the New Testament. I believe each occurrence has a slightly different emphasis. Today's lesson will focus on the context of each of these passages (Rom 1:17; Gal 3:11; Heb 10:38).
A. Romans Stresses "The Just"
Rom 1:16-17 ... 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith." (NKJ)
Romans accentuates the idea of righteousness (Rom 1:16-17). The just shall live by faith. The Bible reveals the righteous character of God, and the conditions on which man can be judged righteous by God. In order to be accepted, we must pattern our lives according to the righteous picture of God that is revealed on the pages of Scripture (2 Cor 3:18). By pursuing God's righteousness, we can develop personal integrity, virtue and purity of life (Rom 6:11-18).
It is significant that Romans 1:17 contains two nearly identical Greek words that stress idea of righteousness and just conduct. Thayer defines the Greek word DIKAIOSUNE #1343, translated "the righteousness of God," as "1) in a broad sense: state of him who is as he ought to be, righteousness, the condition acceptable to God; a) the doctrine concerning the way in which man may attain a state approved of God; b) integrity, virtue, purity of life, rightness, correctness of thinking, feeling, and acting; 2) in a narrower sense, justice or the virtue which gives each his due." 2 Thayer defines the Greek word DIKAIOS #1342, translated "the just shall live by faith," as "righteous, observing divine laws; a) in a wide sense, upright, righteous, virtuous, keeping the commands of God; 1) used of those who seem to themselves to be righteous, who pride themselves to be righteous, who pride themselves in their virtues, whether real or imagined; 2) innocent, faultless, guiltless; 3) used of him whose way of thinking, feeling, and acting is wholly conformed to the will of God, and who therefore needs no rectification in the heart or life; 4) approved by or acceptable by God; b) in a narrower sense, rendering to each his due and that in a judicial sense, passing just judgment on others, whether expressed in words or shown by the manner of dealing with them." 3 Both terms have application to the Christian who seeks divine acceptance!
B. Hebrews Stresses "Shall Live"
Heb 10:36-39 ... 36 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise: 37 "For yet a little while, and He who is coming will come and will not tarry. 38 Now the just shall live by faith; but if anyone draws back, my soul has no pleasure in him." 39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. (NKJ)
Hebrews accentuates the idea that faith is for the long haul (Heb 10:36-39). The just shall live by faith. Faith is not a singular event, confined to a distinct point in time and space; rather, it is a way of living. Those who have good and honest hearts bear fruit with patience (Luk 8:15). Eternal life belongs to those who patiently continue in doing good (Rom 2:7). We must run the race with patient endurance (Heb 12:1-2).
C. Galatians Stresses "By Faith"
Gal 3:10-14 ... 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them." 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "the just shall live by faith." 12 Yet the law is not of faith, but "the man who does them shall live by them." 13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. (NKJ)
Galatians accentuates the idea of trusting in God rather than trusting in self. The just shall live by faith. For a person to reach heaven based on their own doing, they must never commit a single sin. However, no one -- save Jesus -- can approach God on this basis. Therefore, we must trust in God and in Christ rather than in self.
In the books of Romans and Galatians, Paul declares that justification by faith is the antithesis of justification by law. The Pharisees, blinded to their faults, viewed themselves as perfect models of obedience. They foolishly trusted in themselves rather than in God (Luk 18:9-14).
Let us realize an important idea: Salvation by grace and salvation by meritorious works are mutually exclusive concepts. Salvation gained in this way would not be of grace, but of debt. If we perfectly kept God's will, we would deserve heaven. We could stand before God and demand salvation because we had earned it. However, this was not Abraham's approach (Rom 4:1-8). The ancient patriarch made his share of mistakes (Gen 12:11-20; 20:1-18). Nevertheless he believed God, and this was counted to him for righteousness (Gen 15:6). When Abraham learned his duty, he responded in faithful obedience (Jam 2:21-24). As a result, the Lord put down to his account that he was righteous.
Ephesians 2:9 says that man's salvation is "not of works lest any man should boast." In what works might man glory or boast? Perfect works! This is the only way a person could merit salvation. We earn many things: high school diplomas, college degrees, job recognition, a weekly paycheck, etc. However, do we earn salvation? If a person seeks heaven on this basis, his conduct must be flawless. He must never make even a single mistake (Rom 10:5). Once he sins, he stands condemned. At that point, there is nothing he can do, in and of himself, to remove his guilt (Gal 3:10-14).
We must never take the attitude that "God owes me something because I'm so good." To do so is to ignore the universal problem of sin. The sad fact is that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God (Rom 3:23). If a sinner is to be saved, it will be by God's grace. Man's search for grace is an admission of sin, a confession that his works have not been perfect (Eph 2:9; Tit 3:5; 2Tim 1:9).
Luther, overreacting to the errors of his day, advocated justification by faith only. However, this idea was supported neither by the prophet Habakkuk or the apostle Paul. Salvation is made possible when man responds in faithful obedience to God's grace (Eph 2:8-10). Grace speaks of everything that God has done, while faith includes all that is required of us. The Bible clearly states that we must obey God if we are to receive His blessings (Act 10:34-35; Rom 6:17-18; Heb 5:8-9).
Conclusion
The faith of the head is the faith that is dead;
The faith of the heart is better in part;
But the faith of the hand is the faith that will stand,
For the faith that will do must include the first two.
This anonymously written poem communicates an important truth: Faith must dwell in the head, the heart, and the hand! Intellectual acceptance of the truth is not sufficient; willing obedience is necessary (Joh 14:15; Gal 5:6).
Therefore, will you not obey the gospel while there is time and opportunity?
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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Aaron
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quote:
Originally posted by yahsway:
Surely they did have the Old for it is the testimony of the One to come, right?
Rom 2:14 "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves"
I think this is the answer. They did not have to have the OT to have the curse of the law. Their consciences confirmed that a law was already at work in their lives. Not the Mosaic law but a law of their own.
And to be sure Abraham did what was right apart from the law. His actions confirmed his righteousness but it was on account of his belief that righteousness was credited to him.
Aaron
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Caretaker
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posted
A focus on the Clear Word Bible:
http://millennium.fortunecity.com/lincoln/666/clearwordbible/clear-word.htm
http://www.watchman.org/reltop/clearwordbible.htm
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"Incline my heart unto thy testimonies, and not to covetousness. Turn away mine eyes from beholding vanity; and quicken thou me in thy way" (Psalm 119: 36, 37, KJV).
"Turn my heart toward your law more than toward accumulating riches. Help me not to desire worthless trinkets, but give me more desire for your word" (Psalm 119: 36, 37, TCW).
The Clear Word lets the power of ancient texts come through today. As the meaning of Scripture becomes more transparent, you see more of God�s grace. His love shines through even in difficult Old Testament passages. The Clear Word has renewed the devotional lives of thousands of people. Let it renew yours. Now available in the popular two-column format with the text in paragraphs.
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Format: Hardcover
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Release Date: 02/11/03
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Product Code: 132316
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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Aaron
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quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
The foundation of every Christian religion is the Ten Commandments.
You meant to say "Jesus Christ", right? My book says that "Jesus Christ" is the foundation of our lives.
To be fair you did say "every Christian religion". If you were referring to the "religious" and not those "in Christ" I would agree. But I think you were saying that the foundation of Christian life is the Ten Commandments. To me, nothing could be further from the truth.
1 Corinthians 3:11 "For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ."
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yahsway
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Greetings Aaron,
Were the Israelites taught all the law of God before being delivered from Egypt and becoming a kingdom of priests and a holy nation? (Exodus 19: 4-6)
The "early converts" had to Shema (Hear) the word first before becoming converts right? Of what part of the "Whole" did they hear from? What "Early converts" had neither the Old or New Testaments? Surely they did have the Old for it is the testimony of the One to come, right?
In the letters of Paul that we have now, several things are clear. First, Paul quotes from the Tanach 111 times. in those quotes he refrences the Torah 46 times, the Prophets 42 times and the Writings 23 times.
The majority of his quotes (75%) are from the Torah, Isaiah, and the Psalms.
The Old Test. was the Bible of Pauls day.
When Paul speaks of scripture, he was speaking of the Torah, Prophets and Writings or what the Christian Church later called the "Old Test". The New Test. was being written in Pauls lifetime and after, and would not be compiled togethere as a collection until the 2nd Century CE and later.
Therefore, what Paul instructs Timothy in is attention to the Scriptures of the Torah as the divine authority both in his life and in the lives of those he led and taught.
Paul constantly points out that the gospel he is preaching is founded upon the "Scriptures". Romans is an example. From the beginning of the epistle, Paul defines the Gospel of God as that which "was promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures."
In the primary statement of the letters theme (1:16-17), in which the power of the Gospel is seen in its ability to declare Gods means of making sinners righteous, Paul immediately quotes Habakkuk2:4 as substantiation.
After showing both Jew and Gentile to be guilty before god (1:18-3:20), Paul turns to the call of the Gospel (3:21) as the manifested "righteousness of God", which is "attested by the Torah and the Prophets."
Then Paul expounds Genesis 15:6 as a focal point for what is meant by imputed righteousness, utilizing Abraham and David as prime examples.
In 10:5 he quotes Duet 30:12-14 and identifies this as the "word of faith which we are preaching." And finally of the epistle (15:9-12) Paul compiles a mosaic of texts from the Tanach as a fitting finale to his message.
Pauls message and mission were both rooted in and suported by the Scriptures: The Torah, Prophets and Writings (The Tanach).
Now some people have suggested that Paul did not impugn the "Whole" Tanach, but only the Torah as passe and out of date, or as relevant to only the Jews but not to Gentiles. But not only would this go contrary to his own words, it would also go against the theology that Paul himself teaches, that ALL Scripture is divinely inspired and is therefore the very word of God for the believer.
So both Jew and Gentile had the Mosaic texts. One must first Shema (Hear) the word. The Spirit of God does the rest. Paul preached the Word from the Old Test to those who would hear it, The Holy Spirit would write those teachings on the hearts of those who would Hear it. Shalom
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becauseHElives
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quote:
Those poor gentile converts who never heard of the Mosaic law. By your assertion their Christian walk was hobbled. I wonder, were they taught to follow the law before or after they became sons of the Living God?
Yahweh writes the Law Himself upon the hearts of all He calls and then by His Grace by which the New Covenant declares saves those that believe His Word causes them to be able to overcome the sin that once ruled the heart of the unconverted heart...
Definition of the word “grace” “Strong‘s Concordance“……..
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Grace is the good will, loving-kindness, favour of the merciful kindness by which God, exerting his holy influence upon souls, turns them to Christ, keeps, strengthens, increases them in Christian faith, knowledge, affection, and kindles them to the exercise of the Christian virtues.
What is due to grace ?
The spiritual condition of one governed by the power of divine grace, the token or proof of grace,
I will ask the question again…..
Which of these Laws may the child of Yahweh disregard as unimportant?
1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain: for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it.
5. Honor thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.
6. Thou shalt not kill.
7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
8. Thou shalt not steal.
9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his *** , nor any thing that is thy neighbor's.
Which of those Laws are so difficult that anyone that has been imparted the life of Yeshua at the new birth experience would not desire to keep.
"If ye love me, keep my commandments." John 14:15
GOD'S ETERNAL LAW
1 - DOES GOD HAVE A GOVERNMENT?
Psalm 103:19-"The Lord hath prepared His throne in the heavens; and His kingdom ruleth over all."
Our heavenly Father is the king and ruler of the universe (Jeremiah 1 0:6- 7). The Father shares the ruler ship of the whole creation with Christ, His Son. Christ, the Word, is called "King of kings and Lord of lords" (Revelation 19:11-16). Jesus is the active agent in all divine human relations (1 Corinthians 8:6).
2 - CAN THERE BE ANY GOVERNMENT WITHOUT LAW?
Intelligent human beings cannot live together in peace without mutually accepted law. Belief in, and united, practice of good laws are the foundation of human society, the warp and woof of a happy and orderly society. If every man did as he pleased without respect to law, what would happen to peace, to morality, to public safety and decency?
3 - UPON WHAT PRINCIPLE ARE THE LAWS OF GOD'S GOVERNMENT BASED?
Psalm 89:14- "Justice and judgment are the habitation of Thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before Thy face."
Since the law is an expression of God's loving character, we would expect the Bible to describe the law in similar language. Here is Paul's New Testament appraisal of the Ten Commandments:
Romans 7: 12-"The law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good."
Romans 7: 14-"For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin."
The book of Revelation gives us a picture of the redeemed saints praising God. Here are their words: just and true are Thy ways, Thou King of saints" (Revelation 15:3). Those who understand the character of God can testify that He is just and true in all His ways.
Since God is still "the governor among the nations" as well as of the unfallen universe, His laws are still binding upon all rational creatures. He it is who issues these laws (Isaiah 33:22). These laws are laws of love. And they are just. The law of God is for the happiness and well being of His creatures. Those who really love God desire to keep His laws (1 John 5:3).
4 - WHAT CONSTITUTES THE FUNDAMENTAL LAW OF GOD'S GOVERNMENT?
1. The law of Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:3-17) is the unchanging, eternal, and moral law of God.
Dwight L. Moody wrote in his book:
"Now men may cavil as much as they like about other parts of the Bible, but I have never met an honest man that found fault with the Ten Commandments. Infidels may mock the Lawgiver and reject Him who has delivered us from the curse of the law, but they can't help admitting that the commandments are right. . The people must be made to understand that the Ten Commandments are still binding, and that there is a penalty attached to their violation" (Weighed and Wanting, pp. 11, 16).
2. God's law is eternal in its nature.
Psalm 111:7-8-"The works of His hands are verity and judgment; all His commandments are sure. They stand fast for ever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness."
Concerning the fundamental law of the Ten Commandments, church leaders have said:
"The moral law is summarily comprehended in the Ten Commandments" (Presbyterian Confession of Faith, "Shorter Catechism," question 41).
"The moral law doth forever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof" (In the Westminster Confession, chapter 19, article 5).
John Calvin: "We must not imagine that the coming of Christ has freed us from the authority of the law; for it is the eternal rule of a devout and holy life, and must, therefore, be as unchangeable as the justice of God" (Commentaries on the Gospels, Vol. 1, p. 277).
"We believe that the law of God is the eternal and unchangeable rule of His moral government" (Baptist Manual, article 12).
3. The moral law was written on two tables of stone.
On the first were the first four commandments, showing our duty to God. On the second were the last six commandments, showing our duty to our fellowman. Spurgeon said: "If you love God with all your heart, you must keep the first table; and if you love your neighbor as yourself, you must keep the second table" (The Perpetuity of the Law, p.5).
5 - ARE THE TEN COMMANDMENTS FOR ALL MEN IN ALL AGES?
1. The law was for man, from Adam to Moses.
The Ten Commandments were in force from Adam's time down through the millenniums of time. This can be proved by the New Testament. Sin existed from the time of the fall of man, and sin is described by John as "the transgression of the law." Said the apostle:
1 John 3:4-"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."
Now there must have been law at the time of the Fall, because there was sin at the Fall. Says Paul, "Where no law is, there is no transgression" (Romans 4:15).
Adam could not have sinned if he had no knowledge of the moral law. Yet Adam did sin; for, as Paul said, "By one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Romans 5:12).
Not only did Adam sin by breaking the law, but Cain, his son, sinned too.
Genesis 4:6-7-"And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."
Abraham, long before Moses, knew God's law. Moses himself wrote:
Genesis 26:5-"Because that Abraham obeyed My voice, and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws."
However, it is true that the law of God did not exist in written form until Moses' time. Indeed, the written law was not necessary before Moses, Never forget that the race of people who lived immediately before and after the Flood were long-lived people. Adam lived 930 years. Methuselah lived 969 years and died just before the Flood. Noah could learn from Methuselah all that Adam had told him because Methuselah was more than 200 years old when Adam died. There was no need for written laws then.
God does not hold men accountable for sin when there is no law. "Sin is not imputed when there is no law" (Romans 5:13). It is not charged to man. But sin was charged to man from Adam to Moses even though there was no written law. "Death reigned from Adam to Moses" (Romans 5: 14). So they knew of the law. The expression in Romans 5: 13, "Until the law sin was in the world." means until the written law.
2. It was for men, from Moses to Christ.
In Moses' time, the law of God was written by the Lord Himself upon two tables of stone and delivered to Moses, who gave them to Israel.
Deuteronomy 5:22-"These words the Lord spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and He added no more. And He wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me."
The written law was then placed by Moses in the Holy Ark, which was housed in the most holy place of the sanctuary.
Deuteronomy 10:4-5-"He wrote on the tables, according to the first writing, the Ten Commandments, which the Lord spake unto you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly: and the Lord gave them unto me. And I turned myself and came down from the mount and put the tables in the ark which I had made" (Hebrews 9:3-4).
To this day, the Ten Commandment law is held in sacred regard by Jews and Christians alike. The 119th psalm is a great song of praise to God for the law of love. "0 how love I Thy law!" said the psalmist: "It is my meditation all the day" (Psalm 119:97).
Isaiah regarded the law as basic in testing all religious teaching. "To the law and to the testimony," he said, "if they speak not according to this Word, it is because there is no light in them" (Isaiah 8:20).
Solomon knew that it was not possible to please God while despising the law, so He wrote:
Proverbs 28:9-"He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination."
3. It was for Jesus, as the Son of man, and for men of His generation.
Isaiah the gospel prophet declared that, when Christ came into the world, He would honor the law of God. Here are his words: "He will magnify the law, and make it honourable" (Isaiah 42:21).
The psalmist had predicted that Christ's attitude toward the law would be one of honor, love, and respect.
Psalm 40:7-8-"Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of Me, I delight to do Thy will, 0 my God: yea, Thy law is within my heart" (Hebrews 10:7).
Openly Christ declared to the people, "I have kept My Father's commandments" (John 15: 10). And He said, "If ye keep My commandments, ye shall abide in My love; even as I have kept My Father's commandments, and abide in His love" (John 15: 10). Knowing that He was under suspicion as a teacher of new doctrines, Christ declared in His Sermon on the Mount, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law" (Matthew 5:17-19). Christ made it plain that He did not come to abolish the Ten Commandments, but to teach men how to keep them.
4. It was for men in the time of the apostles.
We have already referred to Paul's appraisal of the law. It is holy, just, and good, he said. Moreover, Paul declared that faith established the law. It did not abolish it. The following text deals a deathblow to the doctrine of antinomianism (the doctrine that no moral law is necessary). It also shows that faith establishes the law.
Romans 3:31-"Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid; yea, we establish the law."
The New Testament writers understood that the law was to be the standard in the judgment. Said James:
James 2: 10-12-"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty."
John was even more emphatic than James. He said:
1 John 2:4-"He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."
Many sincere Christians are opposed to the law because they say that it frustrates the grace of God. They refer to Paul in order to support their views. But Peter said that Paul wrote "some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other Scriptures, unto their own destruction" (2 Peter 3: 16).
Paul had no more right than any other human being to change or abolish the law of the living God. He testified publicly, in court, that he believed "all things which are written in the law" (Acts 24: 14). "We establish the law," said the apostle (Romans 3:31). That doesn't sound like destroying the law, does it? Paul was a great theologian. Only those who misunderstand him misrepresent and misinterpret his words.
5. It is for God's remnant people of the last days.
Nothing is more clearly revealed in all the pages of Holy Writ than the solemn truth that God will have a people on earth, just before the second coming of Christ, who will uphold and obey His holy law. In spite of persecution and difficulties, they will stand in defense of God's truth.
Revelation 12:17-"And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. "
These people not only believe in the practice of the law of love, which is the law of Ten Commandments, but they also believe the gospel and have the faith of Jesus.
Revelation 14:12-"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus" (verses 13-15).
The question for each of us to ask is, Am I one of God's remnant people? If not, why not?
6 - WHY IS THERE GENERAL REBELLION AGAINST GOD'S HOLY LAW?
Romans 8:7-"The carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be."
Only by the new birth can the carnal mind and heart of man be changed. According to the new covenant promise (Ezekiel 36:26-27), God will write His law in our hearts (Hebrews 8: 10). But we must be willing. Are we?
Society today lives in rebellion against God's law. Everyone acknowledges that it is a good law, but few people want to obey it. In America, thousands of homes break up every year in the divorce courts. Crime costs billions of dollars annually. Hundreds of murders take place every month. And many of these dastardly crimes are committed by youth. According to a committee of prominent jurists and statesmen, crime will carry the nation on to anarchy unless it is checked soon.
Some ministers and professed Christians oppose the law of God. If they fight the Ten Commandments, what can we expect of the people? Jesus said that if a man broke one of God's commandments and then taught others to do the same, he would be called least in the kingdom (Matthew 5: 19). It is serious enough to disobey God, but nothing is more displeasing to the Lawgiver than leading others into rebellion. The false doctrine that men are not obligated to obey the Ten Commandments has weakened the forces of morality in the world and opened the floodgates of vice and crime. When rebellion reaches its limit, God will intervene.
Psalm 119: 126-"It is time for thee, Lord, to work: for they have made void Thy law:"
Those who have despised God's law have miscalculated His character. They will discover, in the final day of judgment, that He is a God of justice as well as mercy. Here are the words that He speaks to the despisers of His kingdom and His law:
Matthew 7:21-23-"Not everyone that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the Will of My Father which is in heaven. Many Will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name? And in Thy name have cast out devils? and in Thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity."
7 - WHAT PROMISE IS HELD OUT TO THOSE WHO ARE OBEDIENT?
Psalm 119:165-"Great peace have they which love Thy law: and nothing shall offend them."
The Christian who has a correct knowledge of God will love Him and His law. He will find peace in loving obedience. Isaiah declares that this peace and righteousness that all obedient followers of Jehovah enjoy is like "the waves of the sea."
Isaiah 48:18-"0 that thou hadst hearkened to My commandments! then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea."
The test of discipleship is in obedience. The greatest honor and tribute we can pay to Christ is to willingly consent to the writing of His law of love upon the fleshly tablets of our hearts. Will you consent to this work of grace? Remember, Christ saves us from sin, and "sin is the transgression of the law" (1 John 3:4). Salvation then means deliverance from lawbreaking and the restoration of the human heart to the moral likeness of God. Jesus will do this for you if you consent. Will you not say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, 0 my God: yea, Thy law is within my heart" (Psalm 40:8)?
The next lesson reveals how grace makes possible obedience to God's commandments. It is a source of great encouragement. In it we will see the power of the grace of Christ and what it can do for our lives.
THE ETERNAL LAW OF GOD
"Professor Edwards A. Park, in setting forth the current religious perils, ably says: 'One source of danger is the neglect of the pulpit to enforce the divine law. In former days the pulpit was an echo of the voice of conscience. . Our most illustrious preachers gave a wonderful majesty to their discourses by following the example of the Master, and giving prominence to the law, its precepts, and its threatenings. They repeated the two great maxims, that the law is a transcript of the divine perfections, and that a man who does not love the law does not love the gospel; for the law, as well as the gospel, is a mirror reflecting the true character of God. This peril leads to another, that of underrating the evil of sin, the extent of it, the demerit of it. In proportion to the rightfulness of the commandment is the wrongfulness of disobeying it . .
" 'Affiliated to the dangers already named is the danger of underestimating the justice of God. The tendency of the modern pulpit is to strain out the divine justice from the divine benevolence, to sink benevolence into a sentiment rather than exalt it into a principle. The new theological prism puts asunder what God has joined together. Is the divine law a good or an evil? It is a good. Then justice is good; for it is a disposition to execute the law. From the habit of underrating the divine law and justice, the extent and demerit of human disobedience, men easily slide into the habit of underestimating the grace which has provided an atonement for sin.' Thus the gospel loses its value and importance in the minds of men, and soon they are ready practically to cast aside the Bible itself.
"Many religious teachers assert that Christ by His death abolished the law, and men are henceforth free from its requirements. There are some who represent it as a grievous yoke, and in contrast to the bondage of the law they present the liberty to be enjoyed under the gospel.
"But not so did prophets and apostles regard the holy law of God. .
"The claim that Christ by His death abolished His Father's law is without foundation. Had it been possible for the law to be changed or set aside, then Christ need not have died to save man from the penalty of sin. The death of Christ, so far from abolishing the law, proves that it is immutable. The Son of God came to 'magnify the law, and make it honorable' (Isaiah 42:21). He said: 'Think not that I am come to destroy the law'; 'till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law' (Matthew 5; 17, 18). And concerning Himself He declares: 'I delight to do Thy will, 0 my God: yea, Thy law is within My heart' (Psalm 40:8). The law of God, from its very nature, is unchangeable. It is a revelation of the will and the character of its Author." -Great Controversy, 465-467
THE FOUNDATION OF CHRISTENDOM
The foundation of every Christian religion is the Ten Commandments. This is shown in the writings and doctrinal statements of the churches and their founders. No denomination would dare deny the authority of this moral law. Anarchy and crime would reign if they did so. Here are but a few of many statements which could be cited:
Southern Baptist-"We cannot conceive of an age when the moral government of the universe shall be changed, because we cannot conceive of God becoming different morally from what He is now and ever has been. . This Law of God is holy as He Himself is holy. . It is a universal law . . The Law of God is just and cannot be unjust-its justice is universal. . It is more than just; it is gracious. . It results in welfare, in happiness, in blessedness. . The Law of God is full of the love of God."-O. C. S. Wallace, What Baptists Believe, Southern Baptist Sunday School Workers' Training Course, pp. 80-83, 1934, Southern Baptists Convention.
Methodist-"The moral law, contained in the Ten Commandments, and enforced by the Prophets, He [Christ] did not take away. It was not the design of His coming to revoke any part of this. . Every part of this law must remain in force upon all mankind, and in all ages; as not depending either on time or place, or any other circumstances liable to change, but on the nature of God, and the nature of man, and their unchangeable relation to each other. "--John Wesley , founder of the Methodist Church, "Upon Our Lord's Sermon on the Mount," Discourse 5, in Works of John Wesley, Vol. 5, pp. 311-312.
Lutheran-"God threatens to punish all who transgress these commandments. We should, therefore, fear His anger, and do nothing against such commandments. But He promises grace and every blessing to all who keep them. We should, therefore, love and trust in Him, and gladly obey His commandments. "-Martin Luther, Founder of the Lutheran Church, Luther's Small Catechism, in Phillip Schaff, Creeds of Christendom, Vol. 3, p. 77.
Reformed-"We must not imagine that the coming of Christ has freed us from the authority of the law: for it is the eternal rule of a devout and holy life, and must, therefore, be as unchangeable, as the justice of God, which it embraced, is constant and uniform."--John Calvin, founder of the Reformed Church, Commentary on a Harmony of the Evangelists, 1949 ed., Vol. 1, p. 277, comment on Matthew 5: 17, Eerdmans, Grand Rapids, Michigan.
Congregationist - "Through the atonement of Christ more honor is done to the law, and consequently the law is more established, than if the law had been literally executed, and all mankind had been condemned."--Jonathan Edwards (Congregationalist), Works [writings] of Jonathan Edwards, 1842 ed., Vol. 3, p. 369.
Presbyterian-'The moral law doth forever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof; and that not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator who gave it. Neither doth Christ in the gospel in any way dissolve, but much strengthen, this obligation. "-Westminster Confession of Faith, chap. 21, "Of the Law of God, " sees. 5,6.
Episcopalian-"We must understand that the Ten Commandments are just as binding upon Christian people as they were upon the Children of Israel. The moral law is a part of the natural law of the universe. . Just as a natural law broken in the material world brings it inevitable consequences, so the moral law broken brings its inevitable consequences in the spiritual and mental worlds.
"The Lord Jesus knew this. He knew it much better than anyone else who ever lived. Therefore He built His Gospel upon a firm foundation of moral law, knowing that such a foundation can never be upset. .
"Christ's teaching goes beyond the Ten Commandments, but does not thereby make the commandments of non-effect. Quite the contrary! Christianity strengthens the authority of the commandments."- The Episcopal Church Sunday School Magazine, June-July, 1943, Vol. 105, No.6, pp. 183-184.
Moody Bible Institute -"We have already seen that, unlike the ceremonial and civil codes which were given to Israel as the chosen people and holy nation, the moral law is intended for all mankind, and it has never been abrogated nor repealed."-William C. Procter, Moody Bible Institute Monthly, December, 1933.
Interdenominational -"The basic laws of morality, and particularly the Ten Commandments, remain until the end of time as the moral and spiritual foundation upon which the New Testament religion is built."-The Snowden-Douglass Sunday School Lessons for 1946, p. 279.
"These laws are what we might call universal. . These Ten Commandments are the codification of what governs man's moral nature; and they are right, and true, and abiding in every age for every race." Peloubet's Select Notes, for the International Sunday School Lesson for January 20, 1946, p. 35.
"While God remains God, His moral law will be binding upon all who would have any part in His life. God's moral law is eternal; it is an expression of His very being. As such it can no more be abrogated than can God Himself. "-Editorial, 'are Christians to Keep the Law?" The Sunday School Times.
"The law shows me what God demands of me, but what I cannot do by myself. It shows me what I am and that I am lost. It points me to Christ in order that by grace I can be what I cannot be under law." Alan Redpath, "Law and Gospel, " The New Century Leader, July 1958.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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Thunderz7
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Bob10 didn't answer about the Clear Word Bible and can't answer now;
and like Kindgo I find nowhere to read it on the net.
So do we know of drastic changes it makes from the more standard versions?
T7
Posts: 1113 | From: Northeast Alabama | Registered: Jun 2002
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Aaron
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Those poor gentile converts who never heard of the Mosaic law. By your assertion their Christian walk was hobbled. I wonder, were they taught to follow the law before or after they became sons of the Living God? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
I know what the "answer" is but I'm searching for the truth.
You said: "The Old and the New Testaments together form one whole."
One whole what? And if it's an important "whole" then what of the early converts who had neither? Or, did they have something else that was equally or more important? What do the Testaments tell us is required to be a son of God?
Aaron
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becauseHElives
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quote:
If Christ's death came before the law, and His subsequent redemption of man, then would the law have been given? I think not.
The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. (KJV)
Psalms 19:
7 Yahweh's law is perfect, restoring the soul. Yahweh's testimony is sure, making wise the simple.
8 Yahweh's precepts are right, rejoicing the heart. Yahweh's commandment is pure, enlightening the eyes.
9 The fear of Yahweh is clean, enduring forever. Yahweh's ordinances are true, and righteous altogether.
10 More to be desired are they than gold, yes, than much fine gold; sweeter also than honey and the extract of the honeycomb.
11 Moreover by them is your servant warned. In keeping them there is great reward.
12 Who can discern his errors? Forgive me from hidden errors.
13 Keep back your servant also from presumptuous sins. Let them not have dominion over me. Then I will be upright. I will be blameless and innocent of great transgression.
14 Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in your sight, Yahweh, my rock, and my redeemer.
I am not a Seventh Day Adventist, but when it come to the Law of Yahweh there is much misunderstanding. And all will answer for how they treat IT!
Yeshua said: "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 5:17-19).
The Old and the New Testaments together form one whole.
Do I keep the Law perfectly? Not hardly! But all that is in me desires to keep it because I know it pleases my Heavenly father.
Is it wrong to have Church meetings on Sunday, I do not think so, but I know positively it is wrong to teach anyone that the Sabbath has been changed to Sunday.
The Sabbath is now and always will be on the Seventh Day!
The only thing changed with the Law is that part that is ordinances that demand the slaying of animals blood, because Yeshua Blood has now been shed, to which the blood of the animals pointed.
Which of these Laws may the child of Yahweh disregard as unimportant?
1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain: for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it.
5. Honor thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.
6. Thou shalt not kill.
7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
8. Thou shalt not steal.
9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his *** , nor any thing that is thy neighbor's.
I am only going to touch on the 4th commandment, because I believe it is the most misunderstood.
Yeshua kept all the Law Perfectly, that includes the Sabbath . Many even in His day misunderstood, it is not wrong to do good on the Sabbath, such as healing the sick.
All the Law is summed up in the 2 Commandment...
Love Yahweh with all your heart, mind, body, soul and spirit and Love your neighbor as yourself!
The Covenant made with us today is that of a new heart, the removal of the heart of stone, symbolized by the broken tablets of stone and replaced with a heart of flesh, symbolized by the baptism of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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Aaron
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Another thought:
It is hard for us to imagine a world without the law. Or even a people without access to the law. Gentiles did not have the law of Moses yet their consciences confirmed a law apart from the Mosaic law.
So I wonder: was the Gentile's law of less effect than the Mosaic law? Or, did it possess the same glory as the law received on Sinai? Was this gentile "schoolmaster" of equal glory to the Mosaic one?
"for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them..."
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Aaron
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quote:
But the law produces slaves.
Gal 4:23-25 "But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar-- for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia
quote:
And this is what God intended to do with the Israelites at the mountain. But the men were afraid and sent Moses in their stead. Because they would not come into God's presence the Law was given.
Deuteronomy 5:23-27 "So it was, when you heard the voice from the midst of the darkness, while the mountain was burning with fire, that you came near to me, all the heads of your tribes and your elders. And you said: 'Surely the Lord our God has shown us His glory and His greatness, and we have heard His voice from the midst of the fire. We have seen this day that God speaks with man; yet he still lives. Now therefore, why should we die? For this great fire will consume us; if we hear the voice of the Lord our God anymore, then we shall die. For who is there of all flesh who has heard the voice of the living God speaking from the midst of the fire, as we have, and lived? You go near and hear all that the Lord our God may say, and tell us all that the Lord our God says to you, and we will hear and do it.'"
Deuteronomy 5:4-5 "The Lord talked with you face to face on the mountain from the midst of the fire. I stood between the Lord and you at that time, to declare to you the word of the Lord; for you were afraid because of the fire, and you did not go up the mountain."
It was after this that the priest-hood was established...those few who would go forth and hear from God and relay this to the people (The current, errant, church culture mimics this arrangement). If they had all gone into His presence they would've all become priests and kings...as was God's intent.
quote:
Now, a father does not require the law to raise sons. A father raises his own sons.
You reference that the law is written on our hearts.
The law becomes our nature. But not the law the produces slaves...the Law of the Spirit of God.
You know, I have more thoughts but I find them difficult to convey. First I want to thank you, sis, for your reply. It's caused me to go deeper into my study of this.
Here are a few of my thoughts:
1) We know that Jesus Christ is the completion of the law. Are we not also? If we are "in Him" and "His Body" it would seem that we are. Some words come to mind: "sons", "co-heirs", "priests".
2) If we are the completion of the law in Christ do we then not function as the law functions? Also, is the church "Christ among men"? And if she is so...
3) What is the distinction between the "spirit of the law" and the "Law of the Spirit of life in Christ"?
Last comment: If Christ's death came before the law, and His subsequent redemption of man, then would the law have been given? I think not.
I'm afraid to say more lest I find this thread moved to the "Heresy" forum.
I appreciate your input Linda.
Bless you,
Aaron
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Good Morning Aaron: I have some questions here:
quote:
But the law produces slaves.
Scripture please? Did the Law PRODUCE bondage or did the fear of death produce bondage to those who were under the law? What of those who were by nature outside the law? Were they not already in bondage because of sin?
quote:
God wanted sons. Sons cannot be made through the law.
Agreed. Ye must be born again! The Law was not yet complete. Those who died under the law, by grace were written among the righteous to await Christ's day... that they see the fulfillment of the law.
quote:
Only the presence of God can change a man into a son of God. Ultimately it is His very presence, not edicts about Him, that changes men.
I completely agree! Ye must become a new creature... born again.
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And this is what God intended to do with the Israelites at the mountain. But the men were afraid and sent Moses in their stead. Because they would not come into God's presence the Law was given.
Can you show me this in scripture? I do not know this. In fact here in Chapter 13, long before they reach Sinai, God gives them the feast of Unleavened bread to be a sign of the LAW in their mouths...
Exodus 13:9 And it shall be for a sign unto thee upon thine hand, and for a memorial between thine eyes, that the LORD‘S law may be in thy mouth: for with a strong hand hath the LORD brought thee out of Egypt.
quote:
Now, a father does not require the law to raise sons. A father raises his own sons.
Then why does the Father write the law on the hearts of his sons in the New Covenant?
Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Why does the Jew hae advange because they have the oracles of God?
Romans 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
Why does Peter say if you speak.. speak the oraacles of God?
1 Peter 4:11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God;
Why does Paul call the oracles of God "milk"?
Hebrews 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
When God chastises us as sons? What does he chastise us for if not for disobedience... for sin, and how do we who are not under the law know that sins is sin, if not that the law is written in our hearts?
Hebrews 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
quote:
Also, the law produces slaves, not sons. No father would want His sons to become slaves. Since the people refused to be in His presence the law was then required to preserve them. If they had come into His presence the Law would not have been necessary because God's intent for man would have been fulfilled: He wanted sons. And He would have them from men .
I asked you about this above.. the scripture to support this... I do not claim that I know all there is to know on this an I am open to learning something here, that I may have missed... but let me share my thoughts on a couple of the things you have said here that I am currently in disagreement about:
1. I do not believe that the Law produced slaves. I believe that the scripture says that the law brought to men the knowledge of their enslavement to sin and bondage to sin which was due to the fear of death.
2. I do not believe that the Law was given because the people would not come into HIS presence; I believe that the law was given that they COULD come into HIS presence and not be comsumed by HIS Holiness as they were so very sinful. I believe that it was given that they could live in HIS presence... while they were mere sinful adamic mortals, and by grace die as mere adamic mortals that they could be buried among the righteous and await the day of Christ.
3. I believe that the plan of redemption of God was from the beginning what it has been... to include all that it has included, and that God's intent for man could never have been fulfilled until Christ was manifest and Christ was manifest at the precise time, and under the precise circumstances that were ordained from before the foundation of the world! God wanted sons yes, but sons would have to be eternally in his presence as HE is an eternal God and that would not have been possible for the Hebrews without rebirth that opportunity could come only at the precise and appointed time that it came as opportunity for all men. Moses did enter into HIS presence, but Moses still died, because Moses was a slave to sin and death before the Law was given.
quote:
God's intent for the Israelites: "'And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel."
Yes, indeed.. an earthly one. But it was not without condition:
Exodus 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation.
And it was also not without purpose...not just for the Israelites, but for the nations as well. For the Israelites living in the presence and blessing of God under the Law were a witness to the nations that the God of Abraham was God. Every time God gave over a nation unto their hand, or drove a nation out before them and allowed them to possess that heathen nations land, this was God bringing judgment on the nations and the witness of the Hebrews living under the law was a witness that God's judgment on the heathen was just. This also is God's intent in having given to the Hebrews the law.
quote:
The reality: "For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, you have been rebellious against the LORD..."
This is true, but this was not a surprise to God; God knew what they would do! God's plan was not supposed to end in the desert with a people who lived earthly lives in his blessing and then died only to be separated from him in death (even though that separation was one of comfort in Abraham's bosom, it was not God's unlitmate desire for them... not God's best!) Christ would still have to be manifest and destroy sin in the flesh and rise that they could also rise! Yes, they were a rebellious people and this both grieved and angered God. But even in their rebellion God's purpose was served... God's intention was served because everytime God brought judgment on HIS own people, again, it was a witness to the heathen that their own judgment was judgment by a JUST God who was LORD of lords.
quote:
Our reality in Christ: "But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people.."
and
"To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, and has made us kings and priests..."
This is why the law is anathema to the Christian life...any bit of it. Once we are a son the law has no use for us. It still has a use, but not son-ward...only for slaves.
Bless you,
Aaron
I disagree Aaron. Were does it sy that the Law is anathema to Christians?
Jesus did not abrogate the Law, he made it full... complete. The Hebrews that died under the Law had to wait for in death and in Abraham's bososm for that completion, and we live it fully today as Christians.
The law is not for us anathema... the Law is written in our hearts... all of it to include Christ's redemption from the curse of the law that is death.
The law was not a bad thing. The law is not a bad thing today. I think that there is huge misunderstanding of what the Law was and was not did and did not do. Let me summerize what I see and you can show me scripturally where I error.
1. The law never saved anyone. It was not meant to.
2. People were declared righteous under the law. But they were saved by God's grace and mercy which he extended to those who in faith followed the law to the best of their human ability and did not deny the spirit of the law. They had to wait for Christ to recieve this salvation.
3.Before the Law was given to the Hebrew people, they were in bondage to sin. They were going to die because of sin; but also in this life they were subject to wrath and judgment for sin.
4. The Law by telling them what sin was, freed them to choose between blessing and cursing of God in this life. Freed them to come into the presence of the Lord by faith and not be obliterated by the very presence of HIS holiness. It became the veil that prevented them from becoming engulfed in flames by his HOLY Fire and yet allowed them to live in his presence and under HIS authority rather than under the authority of the enemy.
5. For the heathen that was not given the law, it brought a curse for not following it... but still it was a witness because the heathen could at anytime see that GOD was GOD and choose to soujourn with the Hebrews and live as they did keeping HIS commands and statutes and if they did so choose they would be entititled to the blessings and promises of the Hebrews.
6. What was the law? The Law was the word of God...spoken by HIS VOICE to Moses, and etched with HIS finger in stone. Present in the Law was God's dispensation of Grace and Mercy, to appoint righteousness to those who followed it because they BELIEVED HIS words.
I ask you to look at that. What do you see? I see that Christ is the Law. Christ is HIS Word; HIS Voice; HIS finger; HIS GRACE; HIS Mercy; HIS righteousness. During the dispensation of Grace under the Law, Christ was present in the Law. Word and Spirit.
What made the Pharisee not righteous enough? They denied the spirit of the Law, that was Christ! Their faith was not in the word or in God... but in themselves and in their circumcision of flesh not hearts. They denied HIS spirit every time they added burden to the law with their traditions or eveytime they refused to help someone because it was the Sabbath!
The law is not to us anathema! Scripture, chapter and verse for this respectfully please. I sincerely have missed this. Before Christ, the law was anathema to me a Gentile who was without the law. But Christ has freed me from the curse of the law.. not made the law a curse to me. I do not seek righteousness of the law but of Christ, but I do not either think that Christ has freed me to sin. Christ has freed me from sin and thus enabled me to obey in faith the law of Christ unto righteousnss.
Seeking salvation or righteousness or to be justified through the Law is to us ananthema and brings us into bondage of sin and death follows sin. Why? because the Law is Bad? NO! Because the Spirit of the Law is manifest in the person of Christ! Grace is no more dispensed through the Law! Grace is manifest in Christ bodily who is the object of our faith. HIS spirit has come in indwell us.
The LAW is changed... it is not obliterated or destroyed it has changed form and it has in its FULNESS and COMPLETENESS through Christ been written in our hearts. James calls it "the perfect law of Liberty"
We are now free to serve God. We are now free to obey HIS commands; HIS yoke is not a burden for Christ does indwell us and we have HIS mind also, but none the less we have a HIS yoke, and it is a YOKE.
We are still sacrificing to God... but not bulls and goats, but it is our "reasonable service" to present our bodies presented as living sacrifice daily as we bring them and even our thoughts into subjection to the LAW of Christ.
It is the LAW that allows us to be dead because of sin and through the Law being dead to the law to live unto God! How then can the law be anthema to me a Christian?
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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The purpose of the Law is to stop the sinner’s mouth of justification.
The Law tells him what sin is (see 1 John 3:4) and stops him proclaiming his own goodness. Its intent is to drive him to the cross. John Wesley said, “The first use of [the Law], without question, is to convince the world of sin. By this is the sinner discovered to himself. All his fig-leaves are torn away, and he sees that he is ‘wretched and poor and miserable, blind and naked.’ The Law flashes conviction on every side. He feels himself a mere sinner. He has nothing to pay. His ‘mouth is stopped’ and he stands ‘guilty before God.’”
“Ask Paul why [the Law] was given. Here is his answer, ‘That every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God’ (Romans 3:19). The Law stops every man’s mouth. I can always tell a man who is near the kingdom of God; his mouth is stopped. This, then, is why God gives us the Law—to show us ourselves in our true colors.” D. L. Moody
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Hey David: You said: quote:
Linda:
"But if Christ has freed us from the curse of the law, has he not also freed us to obey the law in faith? Is there now some law that says I cannot observe the sabbath day Saturday in the very same ways that Jesus did? "
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Where did I say that one could not?
![[pound]](graemlins/pound.gif) You didnt!!!! ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Sorry !! I did not intend to imply you did. I was emphasizing, because that is where folks take this discussion.
I agreed with your post.
I wanted to speak to the idea that Jesus destroyed rather than fulfilled the Law, which is often where this particular discussion goes.
I should have drawn a ::::::::::::::::::::::::::
To separate my comment TO you (which was agreement that there seem to be degrees of thought on this among the adventists) and the rest of my post which was my genral thoughts on the subject.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:
Originally posted by David:
Some Seventh-day Adventists believe identically to orthodox Christians, other than believing that worship should be held on Saturday and that the Saturday Sabbath should still be observed. If these are the only differences, then yes, a person could be a Seventh-day Adventist and still be a true believer in the Lord Jesus Christ.
Linda:
"But if Christ has freed us from the curse of the law, has he not also freed us to obey the law in faith? Is there now some law that says I cannot observe the sabbath day Saturday in the very same ways that Jesus did? "
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Where did I say that one could not?
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Aaron
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quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
[QB]
but the INTENT of the law was to have the people know God and that HE is I AM...
But the law produces slaves. God wanted sons. Sons cannot be made through the law. Only the presence of God can change a man into a son of God. Ultimately it is His very presence, not edicts about Him, that changes men.
And this is what God intended to do with the Israelites at the mountain. But the men were afraid and sent Moses in their stead. Because they would not come into God's presence the Law was given.
Now, a father does not require the law to raise sons. A father raises his own sons. Also, the law produces slaves, not sons. No father would want His sons to become slaves. Since the people refused to be in His presence the law was then required to preserve them. If they had come into His presence the Law would not have been necessary because God's intent for man would have been fulfilled: He wanted sons. And He would have them from men.
God's intent for the Israelites: "'And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel."
The reality: "For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, you have been rebellious against the LORD..."
Our reality in Christ: "But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people.."
and
"To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, and has made us kings and priests..."
This is why the law is anathema to the Christian life...any bit of it. Once we are a son the law has no use for us. It still has a use, but not son-ward...only for slaves.
Bless you,
Aaron
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helpforhomeschoolers
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quote:
That's all fine and good sis, but a heresy arises when one claims that lawfulness is salvation. Actually, the opposite is claimed: "You will not live forever unless you obey the law." Such a thing seeks to make heretics out of saints.
I agree!
quote:
Of course Jesus obeyed the Law. He was born under the Law. And the sacrifice for sin had not been made.
Did Jesus obey the Law because He was born under it or because it was the will of God?
quote:
It was never God's intent to give the law to men. His original intent was to make the Israelites royal priests and kings: son's of God. It was only after the people refused to enter into the presence of God and sent Moses in their stead did God give the people the law.
I am not sure if I diagree with you or if we have an issue of semantics. I agree that God desired to make the Israelites the sons of God. The scripture says that he remembered HIS covenant with their fathers and heard their cry for deliverance, and responded, but then after they were delivered out of Egypt, he desired them to be HIs people and He their God..... but even before they left Egypt, they were given the ordinance of the passover, which I consider part of the law... also, Moses told Pharaoh that he had to give them livestock that they could sacrifice, thus there must have been some law there. I assume that they were all circumcised, also law. They also had as they came out, the ordinances of the Sabbath, and the ordinances dealing with the manna.
Here at the waters of Marah....before the tablets were etched that God speaks his intentions through Moses:
Exodus 15:26 And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that healeth thee.
I believe that God did indeed intend to give the Law to man, because the LAW was given to man to show man the righteousness of God.... who by the way is the person Christ. But we have to remember that these were a people that had not heard from God in 400 years. They did not know God they had to learn who God was and that HE was a HOLY and Righteous and Just God and this is why he gave the Law to teach them that HE was God and they were not.. to set the standard... to show them Holiness contrast with sinfulness. To teach them about himself... this is WHY the Law was given... to point them eventually to Christ (God manifest)
quote:
Law was given to preserve the people from which the Righteous Seed would come: Jesus Christ. The enemy, the accuser, sought to be both prosecutor and punisher for those under sin. As all were under sin his scope of power included the entire human race. And since the wages of sin is death the enemy had power to kill all of mankind.
Hmmmm I dont disagree that the Law did do this...but remember that 400 years without the Law did not cause the people to not be preserved! I dont think that there is anything that would have made void the promise that God made in the Garden... nor those made to Abraham. I agree that the Law did as you have said... but the INTENT of the law was to have the people know God and that HE is IAM... the intent was to point them to Christ... and to make them to be a witness to the world that HE is GOD... that the GOD of the Hebrews is GOD of all gods.
quote:
The law of God put limits on the enemy's power to that through the remnant the Seed could emerge. Distinct consequences were applied to lawless deeds and animal sacrifices were mandated until..."until the Seed should come to whom the promise was made." That Seed has come: Jesus Christ...not simply "Jesus" but "Jesus Christ" for He was not complete until He died on the cross. All saints are of the Seed and we are justified by Him.
I agree!
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Aaron
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quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
Yes David and there are also Adventists that are not 7th day. We have at least two members that I can think of that are long time members and are adventists, but not 7th day.
There are many things about 7th Day Adventism that I do not agree with, particularly in regard to their views on prophesy,but also some other things. But I want to say this. Grace is not opposite of Law.
Those who were in the past under the Law were under it with Grace. When Grace was manifest in the Body and life of Jesus it was no more present in the written Law, but the law was written on our hearts...
We are free of the curse of the Law. The curse of the Law damned those who did not obey it. If we be Christ's and HE be in us then there is no condemnation for those who walk in the Spirit. But you can bet your bottom dollar that Christ is not disobeying the Law! Christ is the very spirit of the Law and HIS words are written on the tablets of our heart and we are circumcised in the heart! We do not obey to be saved; but we surely do obey because we are saved and this life we live is not our life and we are not living it but Christ is living in us and Christ was obedient unto death!
We are not under the schoolmaster of the Law. We now have the HOLY Spirit living in us and is our teacher.
But if Christ has freed us from the curse of the law, has he not also freed us to obey the law in faith? Is there now some law that says I cannot observe the sabbath day Saturday in the very same ways that Jesus did?
Paul did not speak against Peter and John at the Jerusalem Council when they said that the Gentiles should keep themselves from meat offered to idols and things strangled.
Jesus is our Sabbath rest. Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath, and we are not in need of a physical day of rest for we do rest in Christ every day, and we are seated with HIM now in the heavenlies and not creatures of this earth....
Hebrews 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
but that does not mean that God has changed the Sabbath day to Sunday. It also does not been that it is not a HOLY day in the earth.
Saturday is the 7th Day of the week and it has always been the 7th day and it remains an earthly day of rest for them that are earthy.
Hebrews 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
Hebrews 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
We are heavenly, but still we walk in the earth and we should not be claiming that God changed the Sabbath day in the earth. He did not.
For the church He took us heavenly and became our life and our Sabbath rest. That is not changed by my knowing that Saturday is the Sabbath day of GOD and is still a day of rest for those who have not entered HIS rest.
Nor does it make it a sin for me to join in fellowship on Sunday with my fellow believers if I so choose.
Lots of people choose to worship corporately on Saturday. The same blood that freed us to worship corporately on Sunday, has also freed us to worship corporately on Saturday if we so chose!
And to the credit of the 7th day adventists... if you (not you personally - I speak of any man) want to force me to worship on Sunday and I am at liberty by the blood to worship on Saturday if I choose... then what you do is in the spirit of anti christ and does also deny the blood!
Romans 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord’s.
That's all fine and good sis, but a heresy arises when one claims that lawfulness is salvation. Actually, the opposite is claimed: "You will not live forever unless you obey the law." Such a thing seeks to make heretics out of saints. ![[Mad]](mad.gif)
Aaron
What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
P.S.
Of course Jesus obeyed the Law. He was born under the Law. And the sacrifice for sin had not been made.
It was never God's intent to give the law to men. His original intent was to make the Israelites royal priests and kings: son's of God. It was only after the people refused to enter into the presence of God and sent Moses in their stead did God give the people the law.
Law was given to preserve the people from which the Righteous Seed would come: Jesus Christ. The enemy, the accuser, sought to be both prosecutor and punisher for those under sin. As all were under sin his scope of power included the entire human race. And since the wages of sin is death the enemy had power to kill all of mankind.
The law of God put limits on the enemy's power to that through the remnant the Seed could emerge. Distinct consequences were applied to lawless deeds and animal sacrifices were mandated until..."until the Seed should come to whom the promise was made." That Seed has come: Jesus Christ...not simply "Jesus" but "Jesus Christ" for He was not complete until He died on the cross. All saints are of the Seed and we are justified by Him.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Yes David and there are also Adventists that are not 7th day. We have at least two members that I can think of that are long time members and are adventists, but not 7th day.
There are many things about 7th Day Adventism that I do not agree with, particularly in regard to their views on prophesy,but also some other things. But I want to say this. Grace is not opposite of Law.
Those who were in the past under the Law were under it with Grace. When Grace was manifest in the Body and life of Jesus it was no more present in the written Law, but the law was written on our hearts...
We are free of the curse of the Law. The curse of the Law damned those who did not obey it. If we be Christ's and HE be in us then there is no condemnation for those who walk in the Spirit. But you can bet your bottom dollar that Christ is not disobeying the Law! Christ is the very spirit of the Law and HIS words are written on the tablets of our heart and we are circumcised in the heart! We do not obey to be saved; but we surely do obey because we are saved and this life we live is not our life and we are not living it but Christ is living in us and Christ was obedient unto death!
We are not under the schoolmaster of the Law. We now have the HOLY Spirit living in us and is our teacher.
But if Christ has freed us from the curse of the law, has he not also freed us to obey the law in faith? Is there now some law that says I cannot observe the sabbath day Saturday in the very same ways that Jesus did?
Paul did not speak against Peter and John at the Jerusalem Council when they said that the Gentiles should keep themselves from meat offered to idols and things strangled.
Jesus is our Sabbath rest. Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath, and we are not in need of a physical day of rest for we do rest in Christ every day, and we are seated with HIM now in the heavenlies and not creatures of this earth....
Hebrews 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
but that does not mean that God has changed the Sabbath day to Sunday. It also does not been that it is not a HOLY day in the earth.
Saturday is the 7th Day of the week and it has always been the 7th day and it remains an earthly day of rest for them that are earthy.
Hebrews 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
Hebrews 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
We are heavenly, but still we walk in the earth and we should not be claiming that God changed the Sabbath day in the earth. He did not.
For the church He took us heavenly and became our life and our Sabbath rest. That is not changed by my knowing that Saturday is the Sabbath day of GOD and is still a day of rest for those who have not entered HIS rest.
Nor does it make it a sin for me to join in fellowship on Sunday with my fellow believers if I so choose.
Lots of people choose to worship corporately on Saturday. The same blood that freed us to worship corporately on Sunday, has also freed us to worship corporately on Saturday if we so chose!
And to the credit of the 7th day adventists... if you (not you personally - I speak of any man) want to force me to worship on Sunday and I am at liberty by the blood to worship on Saturday if I choose... then what you do is in the spirit of anti christ and does also deny the blood!
Romans 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord’s.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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KnowHim
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There seem to be different "degrees" of Seventh-day Adventism. Some Seventh-day Adventists believe identically to orthodox Christians, other than believing that worship should be held on Saturday and that the Saturday Sabbath should still be observed. If these are the only differences, then yes, a person could be a Seventh-day Adventist and still be a true believer in the Lord Jesus Christ.
However, some Seventh-day Adventists believe in much more than a Saturday Sabbath / worship day. Seventh-day Adventists have been known to believe in: the annihilation of the wicked instead of an eternal hell, that believers who die enter a state of soul sleep, and that a person must observe the Saturday Sabbath in order to be saved. Other problems with some Seventh-day Adventists are: belief in Ellen G. White, the founder of Seventh-day Adventism, as a true prophet of God even though many of her "prophecies" failed to come true - and - that Jesus entered a second phase of His redemptive work on October 22, 1844, as "prophesied" by Hiram Edson.
So, What is Seventh-day Adventism and what do Seventh-day Adventists believe? Should a Christian attend a Seventh-day Adventist church? Due to the potential doctrinal issues mentioned above, I would strongly encourage believers to not get involved in Seventh-day Adventism. Yes, a person can be an advocate of Seventh-day Adventism and still be a believer. At the same time, there are enough potential issues to make attending a Seventh-day Adventist church questionable at best.
http://www.gotquestions.org/Seventh-Day-Adventism.html
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How ever we do not teach Seventh-day Adventism on this message board and Bob has been ask not to do this, and he continues. Therefore he has been banned.
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Thunderz7
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Bob10,
do you have info on the Clear Word Bible?
T7
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Bob10
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quote:
2.1.5 We believe that sin is the transgression of the law.
1John 3:4 - "sin is the transgression of the law"
quote:
The law is spiritual, perfect, holy, just and good.
Rom
7:12
Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
7:14
For we know that the law is spiritual:
7:22
For I (Paul) delight in the law of God after the inward man:
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Bob10
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quote:
Bob.......believes in keeping the laws.
Jesus was a teacher of the law.
The Sermon on the Mount is, above all things, a sermon about keeping the law.
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Romans 2:25-29 is especially interesting and direct, though often overlooked.
Here uncircumcised Gentiles are admonished to be circumcised of the heart (v. 29) and to become Jews inwardly by keeping "the righteousness of the law" (v. 26) and by fulfilling the law (v. 27). (Obviously Paul could not have meant the full Sinaitic Covenant in his use of the term "law" here, since circumcision was a part of the law.) Only with God's Holy Spirit, through Christ, can a human being fulfill the righteousness of the law (Rom. 8:4) and "delight in the law of God after the inward man" (Rom. 7:22).
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Kindgo
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Thats fine but until then, this is the teacher, Ron Dart, from Bob's links.
Ron Dart the "church of God" are seventh day Adventists. They teach the two house theory, Hebrew roots, they believe they are the lost celtic tribes of Israel and that the Kings of England, Scotland are Kings of Israel..They teach unclean and clean food to eat per OT law's to Israel and covenant theology..
The sda constitution
2.1.9 We believe in the ordinance of water baptism by immersion following repentance. Through the laying on of hands, with prayer, the believer receives the Holy Spirit and becomes a part of the spiritual body of Jesus Christ.
2.1.5 We believe that sin is the transgression of the law. The law is spiritual, perfect, holy, just and good. The law defines God's love and is based upon the two great principles of love toward God and love toward neighbor, and is immutable and binding. The Ten Commandments are the ten points of God's law of love. We believe that breaking any one point of the law brings upon a person the penalty of sin. We believe that this fundamental spiritual law reveals the only way to true life and the only possible way of happiness, peace and joy. All unhappiness, misery, anguish and woe have come from transgressing God's law.
http://www.thejournal.org/studylibra.../jsceptre.html
http://www.thejournal.org/archives/cgtimln3.html
http://www.thejournal.org/sept97.html
http://www.british-israel.ca/
http://www.thejournal.org/refdesk/links/coglinks.html
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002
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Thunderz7
Advanced Member
Member # 31
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posted
I went to a couple of the heresy hunter sites and found their accusations of the 7th day folks and the Clear Word Bible. (apologeticsindex & inplainsight)
Then I found a couple of 7th day sites that deny the Clear Word Bible as official version.
I am not 7th day, and have often found lies on these heresy hunter sites;
so maybe if Bob10 is 7th day, he can clear this up for us.
T7
Posts: 1113 | From: Northeast Alabama | Registered: Jun 2002
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Kindgo
Advanced Member
Member # 2
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posted
Bob is a Seventh Day Adventist, he believes in keeping the laws. Makes what Jesus did on the cross for us worthless. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
The Seventh Day Adventist Church, formed in 1860, was one of two groups that were an offshoot of the Millerite movement earlier in the 19th century. The lead prophetess of this group, Ellen G. White was not only given this title during her lifetime, but her teachings are held with authority today.
The Adventists adopted many doctrines of the Jehovah's Witnesses (the other Millerite offshoot) such as soul sleep, annihilation, the identity of Christ, and the concept of the "remnant church", outside of which there is no salvation. Like the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Adventists have also written their own bible, the Clear Word Edition. No copies of this are available online.
What makes Seventh Day Adventists unique is their adoption of Mrs. White's doctrine of Investigative Judgment which states that on October 22, 1844, Jesus arose to the holy of holies to begin a period of investigative judgment on the earth - ending with the battle of Armageddon.
Today, Adventists number in the millions and the denomination is known as one of the most legalistic around. They teach that Sunday Worship is the mark of the beast from the book of Revelation and that there is no salvation outside of their organization, doctrines and rituals.
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002
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Bob10
unregistered
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posted
One of the great misunderstandings in Paul's writings revolves around what he meant by the expression under the law.
Only Paul uses the phrase under the law, and he only uses it in Romans, I Corinthians, and Galatians, so it should not be too hard to study. Unfortunately, none of the New Testament writers anticipated our difficulties in understanding what they wrote. They do not always use words with the precision we would like, and the meaning of a phrase can often turn on the idea being developed by the writer at the time. In other words, it may depend on the context.
There are also idioms to deal with. Webster's Dictionary, by Random House, defines an idiom as "an expression whose meaning is not predictable from the usual grammatical rules of a language or from the usual meanings of its constituent elements, as 'kick the bucket' mean 'to die."'
"Under the law" is a little closer to its underlying meaning than is the phrase "kick the bucket," but it is still an expression that carries meaning beyond the three words found in your Bible. Paul's style is very elliptical - that is, economical in expression or use of words. He is given to shortcuts and expressions that carry more meaning than is at first apparent.
http://www.abcog.org/lesson9.htm
http://www.abcog.org/lesson8.htm
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