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Topic: the Law and the Christian
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epouraniois
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quote:
Grace is a free gift undeserved by any of Adam’s race. Grace Can not be earned by any good work, but obedience to your Father desires is not work, obedience flows out of a heart that has been change from rock to flesh
the first part looks to be Biblical, that which follows the word "but" seems to be phylosophy.
Peter didn't know anything about the church revealed to Paul and announced in the Prison Epistles, so why does what was taught to the circumcision need to be brought to bear on that which was taught after Israel took her place amidst the nations which was the precursor to the mystery being revealed?
It is exactly this mixing things together that results in the failure to be able to acknowledge all that God has written.
Clearly, God says what He means and means what He says.
The 12: apostles of the circumcision.
Paul: two fold stewardship;
of the things he had seen
that which the Lord would reveal
Paul makes the disticntions, saying that when he announced the mystery revelation that all in Asia had turned away, and it is no different today.
when I quote Paul speaking to the church, I am usually responded to with letters written to a different people having different instructions that persisted only while God was dealing with them at that time, having little or no bearing on what new revealation is being made known for the time now present.
such is the case in the above post, totally neglecting that all that was offered up for the Jews during the Acts was founded upon the OT promises, and when the Salvation of God was sent to the nations, there are no more OT groundings for the teachings of the revelation which followed, namely the announcment that the church revealed was different in every way, not to be looking forward to the kingdom on earth, apart from kingdom law, apart from being blessed through Israel, and where Israel is a welcome believer, but she did not believe this going to heaven business any more than most Christians.
Most Christians place themselves right back on the earth as Hebrew priests, ignoring all that is written in the Prison Epistles. This thread is a perfect example of not acknowledging where God has divided His words, and why only the church announced in the dispensation of the mystery are given the instructional warning that they must rightly divide the word of truth lest be found a workman ashamed.
v14 is surrounded by a full and rich context which does not end in ch. 2, but continues on, pretensed upon that doctrine as set forth in the first Prison Epistle letter, the first three chapters of Ephesians.
imo, it is grievous err to attempt any pratice before understanding the instruction, for how can anyone expect themselves to practice w/o instruction? well, instruction is called doctrine, and practice is called practicle, or the walk, of which, there are only two we are given.
to continue to quote that which was given to Israel for the purpose of application to any other group is dubious, and most certainly not applicatable nor taught in the Prison Epistles, which the inspired and chosen vessel of the Lord's was given to complete the word of God, as it is written.
Although the entire Bible was written for me, it was not all written to me. I have my letters and Israel has hers.
I asked before, what is the hope of your calling, but do not recall seeing a Biblical responce. Admitting, if I had not some Greek under me, I may not have known of it, nor even where to look to find the answer, but, the Lord giving me some grace, and based upon my ability to simply believe, I now can say and show what is the hope of my calling. Another question is, what is the hope of His calling, and did you know that He has a calling and a hope? Well, it's all in there if we have ears to hear and eyes to see, but if we choose to not acknowledge then how is the Lord to be expected to continue to reveal to us? out of this Book having Holy Words purified 7 times as silver is tried, Holy Words, words of earth, where the depths are unplumable and past finding out unless they are revealed to a willing believer who knows they are so far below God's thoughts thatthey are nothing?
If we knew, for example a billionth part of God's infinite wisdom, we should see our own to be such utter folly, that we should not merely be "willing" for His will, but we should desire it. It would be our greatest happiness for Him to do and arrange all for us.
We should say, 'Lord, I am so foolish and ignorant; and I know nothing, and can do nothing; I can see only this present moment; I know nothing of tomorrow. But Thou canst see the end from the beginning. Thy wisdom is infinite, and thy love is infinite; for, our Saviour and Lord could say of us to Thee, as Thy beloved Son--"Thou hast loved them, as thou hast loved me" (John 17:23). Do, then, Thine own will. This is my desire, the desire of my heart. This is what I long for above all things.'
This is far beyond being "willing". We may be willing for a thing, because we cannot help it. It may be even a low for m of Christian fatalism. A Mohammedan may be thus resigned to the will of his god.
But what we are speaking of is far, far beyond the modern gospel of holiness; far in advance of merely being "willing".
Those who are in the still lower condition; not "willing," but "willing to made willing," do not see that his condition arises from not knowing God; not knowing how infinite is His love, how vast is His wisdom, how blessed and how sweet is His will. If they did but know something of this, they would yearn for His will. It would be the one great earnest desire and longing of their hearts for Him to do exactly what is pleasing in His own sight, in us, and for us, and through us.
Not knowing this secret, Christians everywhere, are striving and laboring to be "willing" by looking at themselves; and by some definite "act of faith" to do something of themselves. Attending to some past law of Israel's. Instead of thinking of His wisdom and His love, they are thinking of themselves and of their "surrender".
But this is labor in vain. Even if it should seem to accomplish something, it is only like tying paper flowers on a plant. They may look natural and fair; but they have no scent, and no life; no fruit, and no seed. It is an artificial, fictitious attempt to produce that which, if they did but know God, would come of itself, without an effort: yea, the effort would be to stop or hinder the mighty power of a true knowledge of God.
The trouble with us is, if we prove our hearts to their depth, that, at the bottom, we think we know better. We would not say it for the world, we would hardly admit it to ourselves. But there it is; and the difficulty of being "made willing" is the proof of it.
If we really knew Him, and believed that He knows better than we do what is good for us, there would be no effort whatever, but only a blessed irrepressible desire for His will.
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becauseHElives
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THE TRUTH ABOUT COL. 2:14
Millions are deceived! There are precious few people on the entire earth that really UNDERSTAND the Scripture in question. Before any study of a difficult verse in the writings of the apostle Paul, we must consider the warning given by Peter in II Pet. 3:16¼
"And also in all his (Paul's) epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things HARD TO BE UNDERSTOOD, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest (twist), as they do also the other Scriptures, unto their own destruction."
In view of this warning, it is essential to get a grounding of plain Scriptures of Jesus Christ and others so we won't misunderstand Paul's writing.
Of all people who has the key of knowledge it is Jesus Christ, and it is He who should be our foundation for further acquisition of knowledge on this subject. In Matt. 5: 17-18 Jesus said¼
"THINK NOT that I am come to destroy the Law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the Law, till all be fulfilled."
Therefore, at the very outset of our study, we can KNOW the Law of God is NOT going to be 'done away.' Jesus went on to praise those who would teach God's Commandments. (v-19).
When a certain man asked Jesus how he could gain eternal life, Jesus made eternal life CONDITIONAL upon the keeping of the commandments. Matt. 19:17¼
"¼but IF you will enter into life, KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS!"
Jesus then went on to enumerate some of the points of the Ten Commandments. James also points out that to break one point of the Ten Commandments brings on a verdict of guilty of breaking all of them. James 2:8-11¼
"If you fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, You shall love your neighbor as yourself, you do well: "But if you have respect to persons, you commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."
Realize James specifically pointed out that to commit sin means one is convicted of transgressing the Law. John also agrees for he nails down what sin IS in I Jn. 3:4¼
"Whosoever commits sin TRANSGRESSES also the LAW: for SIN IS THE TRANSGRESSION OF THE LAW!"
Never forget this explicit WORD OF GOD! So far we see that there is no release of obligation to obey the Commandments of God. You have been reading the very WORD OF GOD. Will you hear? If you are of God, you will hear! Jn. 8: 47¼
"He that is of God hears God's words¼
With the background we now have, we can read and understand a clear statement by Paul in Rom. 3:23¼
"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God."
Since sin, by definition, is the breaking of God's law, then the opposite is also true - if there is no law, there can be no sin! Rom. 4:15¼
"¼for where no law is, there is no transgression."
Yet, Christians still sin, sin still exists. All, both Jew and Gentile have sinned, BROKEN GOD'S LAW, transgressed the commandments of God!
Death Enters
What is the result of our sins, our transgression of God's law? Answer: Rom. 5:12¼
"Wherefore as by one man sin entered into the world, and DEATH by sin; and so DEATH passed upon all men, for that ALL have sinned:"
Since all have sinned, broken God's law, wages have been earned by ALL. Rom. 6:23¼
"For the wages of sin IS DEATH¼"
DEATH, ETERNAL DEATH, from which there is NO resurrection is the just recompense, the penalty to be imposed.
Now let's UNDERSTAND! God is the great Judge. We have broken His law. There is now an INDICTMENT against us as offenders, law breakers. The Judge is handed a written indictment by the prosecuting attorney (Satan). The Judge declares the penalty we must pay is death! Death, the cessation of life, for all eternity! In Biblical terms it is called 'the second death.'
Penalty Must Be Paid
God's law, when broken, requires a penalty to be paid. That penalty is eternal death from which there is no resurrection. We CAN pay that penalty by free choice! But there is GOOD NEWS! We do not have to pay that penalty IF we fully understand it is what we really deserve, and IF we accept the death of Jesus Christ IN OUR STEAD.
Indictment Cancelled
How could this be? Since Jesus Christ is Creator of ALL things, His own life is worth more than the sum total of ALL that He created. Jesus stood before the Judge and said -'tear up the record of the indictment of this accused sinner, and I will pay his penalty by being put to death in his stead.' By our acceptance of His death FOR us, the record of the indictment of our law breaking, which required the death penalty to be imposed, is now cancelled. Jesus pays it. We now stand FREE to continue to live. We TRUST His sacrifice as great enough to satisfy the penalty of death the indictment required.
NOW LISTEN CAREFULLY! It was OUR breaking of God's law that brought about the excruciating death of our Savior on the Cross. DO WE DARE to think we are now free to do despite to the grace wherein we stand and again BREAK GOD'S GOOD LAW? Paul asks that same question in Rom. 6:1¼ "What shall we say then?
"Shall we continue in sin (breaking the law), that grace (undeserved pardon) may abound?"
WHAT IS PAUL'S ANSWER? v-2.¼
"GOD FORBID!!"
Once standing in the freedom of grace, we must now KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS!
The Scriptures you have been reading CANNOT BE BROKEN! (Jn. 10:35) Colossians 2:14 CANNOT contradict the plain TRUTH we have just learned.
COL. 2:14 STATED
"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross."
What does this mean? We KNOW by all of the foregoing TRUTH that it cannot negate our obligation to keep God's Commandments. So¼what was nailed to the cross? Our SINS in the body of Jesus Christ. He bore our sins (Heb. 9:28). The sins brought on an indictment of guilty requiring the death penalty to be paid. Christ paid it for us, the indictment was taken out of the way.
Again, what was against us and contrary to us? Whatever it was, it was blotted out! What was against us was the INDICTMENT brought on by our breaking of God's Law!
God's Laws are NOT against us, and never have been. The obligation we have to keep the commandments is NOT against us. It was the INDICTMENT resulting from our FORMER way of life of transgressing God's law.
Now notice the following clarifications from other sources.
"What has Christ done? He has redeemed us: by the sacrifice of the Cross he has brought reconciliation, cancelled the Law's INDICTMENT that stood against us¼"
(Layman's Bible Commentary p. 115, vol. 22)
What was cancelled? The Law's INDICTMENT.
"14. The BOND, the debt we could not pay, is sponged out. It consisted of the ordinances which we all (whether Jews or Gentiles, see Rom. 2:15) failed to keep and which therefore formed OUR INDICTMENT. This bond God annulled by the Cross. Paul thinks of the "title" or label on a cross, in this case the indictment." (Concise Bible Commentary p-883)
Our failure to keep the laws, statutes, ordinances and word of God brought on our INDICTMENT!! The "handwriting of ordinances" was the 'bond', the debt we could not pay, that was cancelled.
"14 handwriting. Or, 'bond'. When Jesus was nailed to the cross, the 'handwriting of ordinances' (or bond of legal obligations) was cancelled." (Irwin's Bible Commentary p-522)
And what was this 'bond or legal obligations'? It was the INDICTMENT spelling out our death warrant. The indictment has been cancelled, no longer against us! How plain this Scripture is now that we see it in the light of the previously stated clear Scriptures.
epouraniois, what happen in Abraham's life is for my learning / was for every believer’s instruction
, what happened in Joseph’s life is for my learning / was for every believer’s instruction
, what happen to Jonah’s was for every believer’s instruction /my learning
What happen to Eli, to Eli’s son, what happened to the apostle Paul, to Peter, John, Timothy, Barnabas, Adam, eve ….cover to cover of Holy Scripture is for every believer to know how to walk after the Spirit.
The nature of Yeshua comes at the very beginning of the new birth, but that new life is in an embryo, needing much nourishment from the womb of the Body “the Church” so it can be developed one day into a full man (Paul said until Yeshua be form in you. )
Grace is a free gift undeserved by any of Adam’s race. Grace Can not be earned by any good work, but obedience to your Father desires is not work, obedience flows out of a heart that has been change from rock to flesh
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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epouraniois
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James takes up the claim made by Peter - calling him by his Hebrew name Simeon - and, directing his argument to those who revered the Old Testament writings, draws attention to a passage from one of the prophets:
‘As it is written, After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: that the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom My name is called, saith the Lord, Who doeth all these things which were known from the age’ (Acts 15:15-18).
It should be noted that James does not say: ‘This fulfils what is written by the prophet’, he simply says: ‘To this agree the words of the prophets’. The word translated ‘agree’ is sumphoneo, which gives us the word ‘symphony’ and as a noun is translated ‘music’ in Luke 15:25.
The fact that James could give such hearty support to the position taken by Paul and subsequently by Peter, was a shattering blow to the Judaizing party in the Jerusalem Church. A little man might have been content with this victory and have ignored the susceptibilities of the Jewish believers. Not so, however, the apostle James. He realizes the feelings of shock and abhorrence which would almost inevitably result from the Jewish Christian coming into contact with the revolting customs of the Gentiles, and he therefore gives a double sentence:
(1) With regard to the immediate question, as to whether believing Gentiles must submit to circumcision and the law of Moses, before they can be sure of salvation, my answer is ‘No’. ‘My sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God’.
In the body of the letter sent to the Gentiles it is categorically stated that such teaching was a ‘subverting of souls’ and that no such commandment had been given by the leaders at Jerusalem (Acts 15:24).
(2) My sentence is not, however, harsh or mechanical. I am by nature and upbringing a Jew, and I know the horror that seizes the mind at the bare possibility of contact with those who have partaken of meat offered to idols, or with those who have not been particular about the question of blood. While we yield no ground with regard to justification by faith, we must not forget that we are called upon to walk in love, to remember the weaker brethren, and to be willing to yield our rights if need be. My sentence, therefore, is that we write to the Gentiles that believe ‘that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood’ (Acts 15:20).
Three of these items we can readily understand as being offensive to a Jewish believer, though inoffensive to a Gentile. One, however, is a grossly immoral act and cannot be classed as in the same category. The reason for its inclusion here is not that James meant for a moment to suggest that sexual immorality was a matter of indifference, but rather that, knowing how the Gentile throughout his unregenerate days looked upon this sin as of no consequence, James realized that he was likely, even after conversion, to offend by taking too lenient a view. This is brought out most vividly in 1 Corinthians, an epistle that deals with the application of the decrees sent from Jerusalem, and which we must examine before this study is complete.
James follows his counsel of abstinence by a reference to Moses:
‘For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath day’ (Acts 15:21).
His meaning appears to be that there was no need to fear that, by reducing the appeal to only four points, the scruples of the more rigid Jewish believer would be invaded. Moses was preached every Sabbath day in the synagogue, and the synagogue was the nursery of the assembly. If we will but put ourselves in the position of the early Church we shall see the wisdom of this decision. The coming into the synagogue of men whose practices filled the body of the people with horror, would be a serious hindrance to the advance of the gospel. It might even mean the destroying, for the sake of ‘meat’, of one for whom Christ died.
Such a state of affairs was not ideal, and could not last. It was, as the decrees put it, a question of imposing ‘no greater burden than these necessary things’ - much in the same way as the apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 7 enjoined abstinence ‘because of the present distress’ (1 Cor. 7:26).
The assembled Church, together with the apostles and elders, agree with one accord to the appeals of Peter and James, and their decision is recorded in a letter sent by the hands of Barnabas, Paul, Silas and Judas. This letter is of intense interest, not only on account of its teaching, but also because it is the earliest Church letter in existence. Let us take it out of its setting for the moment and look at it as a letter, complete in itself.
‘The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well’ (Acts 15:23-29).
Such is the letter itself. Its inter-relation with the context is best seen by expanding the structure of this section as follows:
Acts 15:22-29
B 15:22-29. Antioch, Syria n IT SEEMED GOOD.
and Cilicia. o To apostles, elders and whole church.
p Send chosen men.
‘We gave no such q Chief men among the brethren.
commandment’. r Greeting. No such commandment.
n IT SEEMED GOOD.
o Assembled with one accord.
p Send chosen men.
q Men who hazarded their lives
r Tell you the same things.
n IT SEEMED GOOD.
o To the Holy Spirit and to us.
p Lay no other burden.
q That ye abstain.
r Fare ye well.
Three times ‘it seemed good’ occurs. First, ‘it seemed good to the apostles and elders, and the whole church’. Secondly, ‘it seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord’. And thirdly, ‘it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us’. To break this threefold cord, the whole Church, with the apostles and elders, together with Barnabas and Paul, and Silas and Judas, as well as the Holy Spirit Himself, would have to be regarded as in the wrong. Any system of interpretation necessitating such an assumption is self-condemned.
dogma
This word is derived from the Greek dokeo ‘to think’, but which does not refer to that process of reflection and ratiocination which is the characteristic of reasoning, thinking, perception and analysis, for dokeo originally means ‘to seem’, and so can indicate an opinion ‘which may be right’ (John 5:39; Acts 15:28; 1 Cor. 4:9; 7:40), but which may be wrong (Matt. 6:7; Mark 6:49; John 16:2). It will be seen that the structure throws into prominence the words IT SEEMED GOOD, and the third couples together ‘The Holy Ghost and us’.
It appears that the Corinthian conception of morality allowed a man to ‘have his father’s wife’, and not only so, but the offence was made a matter of boasting. The apostle had already written to this Church, commanding them not to company with men guilty of such offences, but they had misunderstood him. He takes the opportunity now of correcting the misunderstanding by saying in effect:
‘If I had meant that you were not to company with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters: you would need to go out of the world. What I enjoin has reference to a brother who practises any of these things - with such an one no not to eat; but I have no idea of attempting to judge the world or of setting up a code of morals for the ungodly’ (1 Cor. 5:9-12).
He clinches his exhortation by showing that the sin of immorality is a sin against a man’s own body, and that body, if redeemed, should be regarded as a temple of the Holy Ghost (1 Cor. 6:13-20).
In 1 Corinthians 7 the apostle deals with the question of marriage, and explains that ‘for the present necessity’ it would be as well for all to remain unmarried. But these statements were not to be taken as commandments for all time, nor even for all believers at that time. It was a counsel of abstinence, because the Lord’s coming and the dreadful prelude of the Day of the Lord were still before the Church. With the passing of Israel a change came, and the apostle later encouraged marriage, as we find in his Prison Epistles. The fact that Ephesians 5 sets aside 1 Corinthians 7 does not make 1 Corinthians 7 untrue for the time in which it was written - any more than the setting aside of the decrees of Acts 15 makes Acts 15 a compromise or a mistake. Each must be judged according to the dispensation that obtained at the time. The dispensation of the Mystery had not yet dawned either in Acts 15 or 1 Corinthians 7.
A further interpretation of the spirit of the decrees is found in Chapter 10:
‘All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not. Let no man seek his own, but every man another’s wealth. Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no questions for conscience sake ... but if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake ... conscience, I say, not thine own ...’ (1 Cor. 10:23-29).
If we can but keep in mind those words, ‘not thine own’, we shall have no difficulty in understanding the principles involved in the decrees of Acts 15. Those who condemn Acts 15, should, if consistent, more strongly condemn the apostle Paul.
If man has failed under the law of Sinai, it is not surprising to find that he fails many times under grace. The moderate request that the Gentiles should abstain from the ‘four necessary things’, while the Jewish believers had ‘Moses preached in the synagogue every Sabbath day’ would lead, in time, wherever the flesh became prominent, to a line of demarcation between the Churches of Jud -a and those of the Gentiles. This gradually grew to become ‘a middle wall of partition’, a division that could not be permitted in the Church of the one Body. The one Body was not, however, in view in Acts 15. Only those things known of the Lord ‘since the age’, only those things that harmonized with the Old Testament prophecies were in operation in Acts 15, and nowhere throughout the Acts is there a hint that a Jew ceased from being a Jew when he became a Christian. On the contrary, he became the better Jew, for he was believing the testimony of the law and the prophets. Even justification by faith, as preached by Paul, was to be found in the law and the prophets and was, therefore, not part of a mystery or secret purpose.
Returning to Acts 15 we come to the conclusion of the matter.
Acts 15:30-35
A 5:30-35. ANTIOCH. a Apoluo. Dismissed.
The Answer. b The epistle delivered.
c Paraklesis. Consolation.
Paul and Barnabas,
Judas and Silas. c Parakaleo. Exhorted.
a Apoluo. Dismissed.
b Teaching and preaching.
It was inevitable, human nature being what it is, that two systems of Christian practice, involving questions of sanctification, clean and unclean observances, compelling often Jewish believers to sit at separate tables from Gentile believers, should erect a ‘middle wall’ between them, and create an ‘enmity’ which could not be allowed, when the dispensation of the Mystery, the creation of ‘the both’ into one new man was ushered in with Paul’s prison ministry. It is to this ‘decree’ of Acts 15, that Paul refers in Ephesians 2:15, under the figure of the middle wall of partition, and it is to this decree to which he refers in the parallel epistle to the Colossians:
‘Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ’ (Col. 2:16).
‘Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to the decrees, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; which all are to perish with the using;)?’ (Col. 2:20).
The greater must include the lesser. If the believer be dead to the rudiments of the world, he must also be dead to any fleshly distinction, however much it may have been right to ‘lay upon’ the Gentile believer ‘no greater burden than these necessary things’.
Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace
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epouraniois
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quote:
How much scripture does it say is written to the believer?
the only book written to non believers that i am aware of is the gospel of John, to the end that they might believe, and therefore have life through His name.
for ex.:
James, when he wrote to the 12 tribes scattered abroad {diaspora}, he wrote to believers, first mentioned in Acts2, Jews, Hebrews of the 12 tribes.
Peter uses the same words, but the translators brought them to us differently:
to the strangers scattered throughout = diaspora = dispersion, that is, (specifically and concretely) the (converted) Israelites resident in Gentile countries: - (which are) scattered (abroad).
But like Paul said, regarding his claim to the Hebrew promises, after the revelation of the church, the mystery body whose citizenship is in heaven, that he counted all that but dung, and this one thing he does, to forget those things which are behind and press on to that which is in front.
for 18 years only, during the Acts, were gentiles permitted to listen outside the Jewish synagogues, as they waited for the Jews to hear first.
Those un naturally graphed in gentiles had been in Israel's prophecies, but that tree was cut down, hewn down to the root, as it is written, whereby Israel took her place amidst the nations, and the mystery revealed to Paul for you, announcing the church of the one body, His body, the fulness of Him that filleth all in all.
quote:
Your use of the word "dogma {dog'-mah}" as used as the ordinances against the believer is only referring to man made ordinances, not the commandments of Yahweh..
Q. What are the decrees of God?
A. The decrees of God are His eternal purpose according to the council of His will, whereby for His own glory, He hath ordained whatsoever comes to pass’.
Dogma
Luke 2:1. ‘There went out a decree from Caesar Augustus’.
Acts 16:4. ‘They delivered them the decrees for to keep’.
Acts 17:7. ‘These all do contrary to the decrees of Caesar’.
Eph. 2:15. ‘The law of commandments contained in ordinances’.
Col. 2:14. ‘The handwriting of ordinances that was against us’.
Dogmatizo
Col. 2:20. ‘Why ... are ye subject to ordinances?’
The ‘decrees of Caesar’ cited by the Jews as a pretext for the punishment of the believers in Thessalonica were known as the Julian Laws, and by them ‘whoever violated the majesty of the State was declared a traitor’, and these ‘decrees’ are called dogmas also. The remaining occurrences refer to the decrees issued by the council at Jerusalem (Acts 15), and to certain ‘ordinances’ which contained an element of ‘enmity’ and which were dissolved at the change of dispensation when ‘the both’ were created ‘one new man’. On three occasions when the apostle spoke of ‘opened doors’ for service, we discover that enemies of the truth were close at hand (1 Cor. 16:9; 2 Cor. 2:12; Col. 4:3).
At the close of Acts 14 and as a result of his first missionary journey, the Church at Antioch learned with some measure of surprise, that God had ‘opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles’ (Acts 14:27). This is immediately followed by the controversy of Acts 15, which issued in those temporary placating measures called ‘the decrees’ in Acts 16:4. Acts 15:1-35 is a complete section.
A 15:1-35.
a Men of Judea raise question.
b AFTER THE MANNER OF MOSES.
a Men that have hazarded their lives.
Acts 15 falls into two main sections.
1. Acts 15:1-12, where the Pharisaic attempt to impose the yoke of the law upon the Gentile believer before he could reckon himself ‘saved’ is emphatically repudiated both by Peter, ‘put no difference between us and them’ (Acts 15:9) and by the council, ‘To whom we gave no such commandment’ (Acts 15:24).
2. Acts 15:13-35. The testimony of James and of the council.
Peter’s argument was unanswerable. The law as a means of salvation was obsolete. The Jews themselves, who had the law by nature, were saved by grace, through faith. The emphasis on there being ‘no difference’ - the central feature of the structure - must have rejoiced the heart of the apostle of the Gentiles (see Rom. 3:22; 10:12).
This noble testimony to salvation by grace coming from the leading apostle of the Circumcision, silenced the disputants and prepared an audience for Barnabas and Paul. It should be noticed that the order in naming these apostles changes in the narrative. While they are at Antioch it is ‘Paul and Barnabas’, but when they arrive at Jerusalem, the order is reversed. This reversed order is maintained in the actual letter drafted by the council, but it should be noted that where Luke is recording the facts himself, he reverts to the old order (Acts 15:22). It seems clear that Barnabas spoke first:
‘Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them’ (Acts 15:12).
The obvious parallel between the miracles and experiences of Peter and of Paul would not fail to make an impression. For example:
PETER. (1) The healing of the lame man (Acts 3,4).
(2) The conflict with the sorcerer, SIMON (Acts 8:9-24).
PAUL. (1) The healing of the lame man (Acts 14).
(2) The conflict with the sorcerer, BAR-JESUS (Acts 13).
To the Jew, confirmation by miracle would be a stronger argument than almost anything else, and it would seem, judging from the interval of silence that followed ‘after they had held their peace’ (Acts 15:13), that the multitude as a whole were convinced.
From Galatians 2 we gather that the apostle, knowing only too well how easily a multitude can be swayed, and knowing that there were false brethren secretly at work, communicated the gospel which he preached among the Gentiles privately to them that were of reputation. Peter, James and John, therefore, were convinced that Paul’s apostleship and gospel were of the Lord, and took their stand for the truth at the public gathering.
The purpose of the meeting was precisely to bring gentiles under the full law, all of it.
Please read Col.2, where Paul makes it clear that not only is phylosophy the enemy of Christs' truth, but even returning to that which God had previously instituted is a lack in the faith in the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead...And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances...Which things have indeed a show of wisdom in will-worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honor to the satisfying of the flesh.
Rev. and the 3 epistles of John are not written to the nations, they are written to the Hebrews. The law, as I have quoted several times, was only given to one nation.
Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
and the responce was to give those gentiles who those Hebrews would now be forced to come into contact with as beleivers, was to give them 4 necessary things that seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to the apostles.
there is nothing a person can do to set God in their debts, that God must owe them Salvation. It is a gift. It is called grace. Salvation is by grace alone. Grace plus nothing. Christ Jesus did the work, paid the price, sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
To Israel it is written:
Amo 3:2 You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. 15 But not as the offense, so also is the free gift. For if through the offense of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offenses unto justification.
the Bible says that the law was imperfect and unable to save anything, but was merely a shadow of good things to come. Note that God always took the fat, a figure of their sins, to Himself, and brought down the fire to show His approval, for God is a consuming fire.
Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect... 5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
Note that that was written and addressed to Hebrews. We can learn much through the reading of their inspired letters, but they are not the ones having our name on the envelope.
ps, i didn't use the word dogma, the Holy inspired and chosen vessel to the Lord used the word, and in a specific context, to a specific peoples, namely those chosen and called to the heavenly calling, chosen from before the foundation of the world.
grace simply means, unmerrited favour.
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becauseHElives
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when I read that a book is written to Israel, to me, that means it is written to Israel and not to me.
there are letters written to me that are not addressed to Israel.
the letters written to those of the kingdom are different than those written to the church.
rightly dividing the word of truth does not confuse the kingdom with the church, heaven with the earth, the 12 tribes with the gentiles, but acknowledges all Scripture as being sent to a specific peoples with a specific message from a specific source.
the OT is written to, and is about Israel. It is a book of their promise by covenant relation with God. Christ said He came to fulfill the law, which belonged to Israel.
Paul said that in order for him to apprehend that for which also he was apprehended of, was forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are in front of him.
In forgetting about those things behind him, he feared that anyone would return again to bondage and law.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
epouraniois, ...
How much scripture does it say is written to the believer?
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Originally posted by becauseHElives:
epouraniois, the word "grace" has a definition and you did not begin to answer the definition of it!
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you didn't ask for a definition of grace from me, so why pretend as if you did?
what you asked of me was "define the "Term" saved by "Grace" as used in the New Covenant?"
as far as I know, the "Term" is not a Biblical one.
I sorry I did not make myself understood more clearly. i thought it was clear what I was asking?
I have said more than once I am not advocating being under the Law as you keep saying.
Your use of the word "dogma {dog'-mah}" as used as the ordinances against the believer is only referring to man made ordinances, not the commandments of Yahweh..
Saved by Grace is a biblical term
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Faith involves action on the part of the recipient,
Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
The heart of man can not receive the “Grace of Yahweh” and not desire to do His will, desire to keep His Laws,
1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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epouraniois
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Originally posted by becauseHElives:
epouraniois, the word "grace" has a definition and you did not begin to answer the definition of it!
you didn't ask for a definition of grace from me, so why pretend as if you did?
what you asked of me was "define the "Term" saved by "Grace" as used in the New Covenant?"
as far as I know, the "Term" is not a Biblical one.
as far as I know, Christ did not preach to gentiles, neither did the 12 apostles until Peter spoke with Cornelius and his household about 8 years after the anual Jewish Feast called Pentacost, opening the door for gentiles to hear of Israel's blessings, to partake of the root and fatness of the root of the good tree.
when I read that a book is written to Israel, to me, that means it is written to Israel and not to me.
there are letters written to me that are not addressed to Israel.
the letters written to those of the kingdom are different than those written to the church.
rightly dividing the word of truth does not confuse the kingdom with the church, heaven with the earth, the 12 tribes with the gentiles, but acknowledges all Scripture as being sent to a specific peoples with a specific message from a specific source.
the OT is written to, and is about Israel. It is a book of their promise by covenant relation with God. Christ said He came to fulfill the law, which belonged to Israel.
Paul said that in order for him to apprehend that for which also he was apprehended of, was forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are in front of him.
In forgetting about those things behind him, he feared that anyone would return again to bondage and law.
That is what is written, that is what I beleive to be true.
You haven't provided even one verse that states non Jews were ever to be under any form of Sabbatical law, which is the subject of this thread.
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becauseHElives
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epouraniois, the word "grace" has a definition and you did not begin to answer the definition of it!
2Ti 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Every portion of scripture in total, line on line, precept on precept must be taken into view to rightly divide the "word of truth".
the Scriptures are not a collection of thoughts but the scripture are one whole thought.
No one is under the Law that has been given "grace", but at the same time they are not free to disobey the Moral Law of Yahweh either.
Grace establishes the moral Law of Yahweh in the heart of a believer. Gives them the power to, ability to and the desire to do the will of Father Yahweh.
definition of grace....
http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/words/5/1147523537-8543.html
When Yeshua was on earth, His ministry was not to the Gentiles, but even so the dogs got to eat from the Master’s table.
Now all men are equal in Yahweh’s eye’s because of what Yeshua has done.
Jude
Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort [you] that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
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Romans 2
But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
For there is no respect of persons with God.
For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
(For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
And knowest [his] will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.
…………3:1 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Yesua and the Apostle Paul and the other writers of scripture are not preaching separate gospel messages. They are preaching the same message.
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don't you think it is important to acknowledge to whom the words are written as well as the purpose for them being sent?
I don't think, I know every word in the book we call the Bible, is written to me and all that will becomes children of the living God, Father Yahweh.
Jew and Greek have become one man in Yeshua.
Yeshua brought every thing to a new level, one more difficult than the old.
Where at one time it was the act of taking a life was concidered murder, Yeshua brought it to a whole new level. One that was even more impossible for a natural human to keep. Now to hate your brother was equal to murder.
Only the new creation can walk in this kind of love that Yeshua speaks of. Only a person that walks in the Spirit can fulfill this expectancy that Yahweh expects of His children.
Only this kind of person is willing to die for the cause of Yeshua.
If you walk after the Spirit, you will not break any commandment, and if you love Yahweh you will desire to keep His commandments.
John 14:15 "If ye love me, keep my commandments."
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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epouraniois
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John 14:15 "If ye love me, keep my commandments."
Aren't these the words of the Lord Christ Jesus, the same Christ Jesus that was speaking to His people, who said, "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel", and "Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand". ???
Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.
Doesn't the apostles words above, explaining and reminding the Jews of this fact sort of reinforce this fact too?
Call me silly, but being as the Lord did not come to minister to any but Israel, did not come to speak to my fathers, and said so, and send the nations an apostle till after all Israel had heard heard and knew, and, did not make known "the church" by revelation to the apostle Paul, known as "the mystery", till after the Salvation of God was then sent to the nation, then I cannot personally take for myself that which is commanded to another, even though I can learn much by reading their letters.
when my mom and dad told me that i was to take out the trash, and my brother was to do the dishes, I did not then, nor do I now, understand that to mean that I was to do the dishes. Why? Because doing the dishes was not what was given to me.
same for the Bible, and in that portion which address' "the church" specifically - makes this declaration of instruction:
2Ti 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
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epouraniois
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God will NOT GIVE HIS HOLY SPIRIT to a person who will NOT OBEY Him!!
Acts 5:32
He will not...to a Jew during the Acts...Obey Him!!!
and already at that time, it was seen that the nation was not going to repent, even though, on day 1 of "this is that" was quoted by Peter in Acts2 that greater works than these which Christ had spoken of took place, national repentance and returning to the Lord was slipping away. (noting too, that 5:32 is past tense)
don't you think it is important to acknowledge to whom the words are written as well as the purpose for them being sent?
imo it is important to realize that the when, after Peter used the keys given him to open the door of repentance to the Hebrews in Acts2, then again used them to open the door to the gentiles in Acts10 with Cornelius, it was the year 46 AD when Paul told them in ch.13.v46, "Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles."
so from AD46-62 those gentiles who had heard the decree of Acts 15 and therefore stood outside the Jewish synagogues were "counted for the seed" Rom 9:8.
Then Paul taught, then after the Salvation of God was sent (apostello) to the nations, taught for two years, writing 7 further letters expanding, completinig the word of God in Eph, Col, &c, unmolested by the Jews, as they were judicially blinded in the same ch, i.e., Acts28:28.
to better review some of the time elements, i recommend app. 180 from the Companion Bible entitled Chronology of "Acts" at http://w3t.org/u/oqg
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Originally posted by becauseHElives:
epouraniois
I ask this ? the other day on this post (see page 2) I am still waiting for a response.
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epouraniois
define the "Term" saved by "Grace" as used in the New Covenant?
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Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith ; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Your confusion comes by not understanding "Grace"
the phrase 'saved by grace' is not Biblical, however by grace ye are saved is.
nevertheless,i believe i responded to the question at http://thechristianbbs.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=004634;p=2#000070
where i quoted:
Moreover the law entered, that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound; Rom 5:20.
to show something of why the law was given, that beiing to the end that it one day be known that only the Lamb of God is found worthy, for all have sinned, but the Lamb has overcome the world.
as far as the new covenant goes, i am not too terribly familiar with all aspects, but am quite sure that in order to have a new one, it is required to have a first one, and that no non Hebrew peoples have come under any covenant relations with the Lord, as I have quoted, only Israel is in covenant relationship w/the Lord.
As far as I can tell, grace is the only way anyone might be saved, for salvation does not come by anything we might do, it is a gift from God, purchased by His own blood.
do you find it otherwise?
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becauseHElives
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God will NOT GIVE HIS HOLY SPIRIT to a person who will NOT OBEY Him!!
Acts 5:32 "And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him."
Matthew 6:33 "But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you."
Yahweh says to seek His RIGHTEOUSNESS.
What IS God's righteousness?
Psalms 119:172 "My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness."
The commandments are righteous because they reflect the CHARACTER OF GOD,
John 14:9 "Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?"
John 14:15 "If ye love me, keep my commandments."
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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yahsway
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Amen Hitch! Israels hope is that one that Moses said
Him you shall hear! Namely Yeshua/Jesus.
The laws of God were given to Israel to walk by and to be a blessing to the nations or a kingdom of priests and kings, a holy people.
But they even rejected the law and walked their own way and went after other gods/ and things pagan and Israel was taken captive by the assyrians and Judah carried off to Babylon.
Their only hope is in the Law Giver Himself, Yeshua, for now all the Law is summed up in Him.
The Jews are not going to have a seperate kingdom here on earth to teach the laws of God again.For in that day all peoples will Know God and His Christ. The Jews and Gentiles who are under Christ will be one new man, living side by side with their creator, redeemer, savior Jesus.
All tribes of people will be under one King when Jesus returns. That is the restoring of the tabernacle of David. And even Now he is restoring it.
And one more thing, you cannot understand or have
Grace unless there is the Law as well. The Spirit of the law is that the law is now written on our hearts. But not written on a heart of stone, but a fleshly heart.
Is. 49:6
Indeed He (God)says
"It is too small a thing that You (Jesus) should be My Servant To raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved ones of Israel; I (God) will also give You (Jesus) as a light to the Gentiles (Nations) , That You (Jesus) should be My (God's) salvation to the ends of the earth.
Salvation is offered to "whom so ever will".
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becauseHElives
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epouraniois
I ask this ? the other day on this post (see page 2) I am still waiting for a response.
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epouraniois
define the "Term" saved by "Grace" as used in the New Covenant?
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Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith ; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Your confusion comes by not understanding "Grace"
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Ignorant of that great rubrick, John 4:24, "God is a Spirit, and they that worship Him MUST worship Him in spirit and in truth" (i.e., truly in spirit);
forgetful of that word "MUST," which dominates the whole sphere of what we call worship.
Worship "must" be only with the spirit. We cannot worhsip God--who is a Spirit--with our eyes, by looking on at what is being done. We cannot worship God with our noses, by smelling incense, whether ceremonially or otherwise used. We cannot worship God with our ears, by listening to music, however well it may be "rendered". No! worship cannot be with any of our senses; or by all of them put together. It must be spiritual, and not sensual. The worshippers must be spiritual worshippers, for "the Father seeketh such to worship Him." (John 4:23).
How many will still worship "the unknown God"; and serve themselves; and do what is pleasing in their own eyes, studying only their own tastes!
Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
does that seem harsh to you? well, it's God's Words:
1Jo 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
the truth is taught that, before any one can get to know God, he must have a spiritual understanding imparted to him. With this agrees 1 Cor. 2:14. "The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness unto him; neither can he get to know them." Why not? Because "they are spiritually discerned." The naturall man has no means of getting to know spiritual things. A spiritual understanding must first be "given" to him. Then he is able not only to discern, but to love and delight in the revelation of spiritual things, and to get to know Him, "the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom he hath sent." "This is life eternal" (John 17:3).
The importance of getting to know God is thus again wondrously emphasized as our one great need. This knowledge is not only the basis of trust in God; not only the foundation of Christian faith; but of Christian life. Practical life and walk will be in direct proportion to our knowledge of God. Look at Col. 1:9,10, where we have the practical outcome of hte prayer in Eph. 1:17. In Eph. 1:17 we have the prayer itself. In Col. 1:9,10, we have it applied for our correction and instruction. Carefully weigh the words. "For this cause, we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire" --- Desire what? "that ye might be filled with the knowledge (i.e., acquired knowledge) of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding." Why? For what purpose? To what end? "THAT YE MAY WALK WORTHY OF THE LORD UNTO ALL PLEASING, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOD."
God gave the law to Israel alone and to no other nation was the law given
Psa 147:19 He showeth his word unto Jacob, his statutes and his judgments unto Israel.
Psa 147:20 He hath not dealt so with any nation: and as for his judgments, they have not known them. Praise ye the LORD.
God gave them to no other nation
Deu 4:5 Behold, I have taught you statutes and judgments, even as the LORD my God commanded me, that ye should do so in the land whither ye go to possess it.
Deu 4:6 Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.
Deu 4:7 For what nation is there so great, who hath God so nigh unto them, as the LORD our God is in all things that we call upon him for?
Deu 4:8 And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?
should we be HANDLING the Word of Truth in some way other than acknowledgments? what is written?
2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
We have dozens upon dozens of verses with extreme wordings in regards to what became Paul's greatest fear, namely that they would chose the law, which was a figure of the true, rather than holding the head which is Christ, fearing his labors to be in vain to those he preached the truth of the fulfillment of the law unto.
Should we not seek to please the Lord?
How are we to find out the things that please Him?
How are we to discover the things He approves?
ONLY FROM HIS WORD.
There, and there alone can we get to know Him. There alone shall we learn the fullness of the Spirit's prayer for us in Eph. 1:7; and the blessed practical outcome of it in Col. 1:9,10.
No man has this knowledge of God intuitively.
if there are statments that other nations than Israel are to *burden* themselves with Israel's law, I have stated that I am happy to search out the matter. Just show me the verses so I search and see, meanwhile, go thou likewise,
FOR
the law was given only to Israel:
Psa 78:5 For he established a testimony in Jacob, and appointed a law in Israel, which he commanded our fathers, that they should make them known to their children
remember, the law was given only to that called out and chosen nation, not to anyone else.
Lev 26:46 These are the statutes and judgments and laws, which the LORD made between him and the children of Israel in mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.
does that mean it is ok to kill? is this question for real? it is a shamed that Israel needed to be told those things, but that is what God found the needs for her to have some assemblance that she perceive that which is Holy. here she was, with all the types, shadows, figures of the true so that she would learn the difficulty in approaching a Holy God, that she would be found guilty in her tresspasses, to the effect that where sin abounds, grace super abounds.
if ch 2 of Col is followed by the subject and object through to completion, it may be seen that there were satanic forces holding other things rather than the head which is Christ, Which things have indeed a show of wisdom in will-worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honor to the satisfying of the flesh, and to set our affections on things above and not on the earth.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Israel's hope is in the earthly kingdom
Israel's hope is Christ cruxified and resurrected.
Amen Hitch!
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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helpforhomeschoolers
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P.S. Does it really seem I am advocating debauchery and hedonism? How can that be so? It is contrary to the spirit within me.
Yes, exactly! Indeed! But why is that???
Because CHRIST is the LAW... you cannot separate the Spirit of the Law from the written word of the Law.
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The Holy Spirit we are told convicts us of sin. John 16:8
Was this not the work of the written Law?
What is the Law except that it is the will of God expressed in words?
Christ is the completion of the Law... the rainbow seen full circle.
Under the Law given through Moses.... the written word brought conviction.... grace brought Mercy and Salvation.... the imputation of righteousness upon the unrighteous who were faithful to belief that God is and HIS words and promises true. They demonstated the belief by obedience.
Under Christ, the written word of the spirit within you brings conviction and God's mercy and grace now manifest in the person of Christ brings salvation... the imputation of righteousness to the unrighteous who are faithful to believe God ... that HE is and HIS words and promises are true. We demonstate this by obedience...namely the presenting of our bodies as living sacrifice.
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Galatians 5:24 And they that are Christ‘s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
We cannot claim Roman's 8:1 and ignore Roman's 8:4:
Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
You cannot walk in the spirit and willingly and wantanly break the commandments of God. It is impossible.
Neither can you keep them save the Spirit of God, The Spirit of Christ, The Spirit of the Law lives in you.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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Hitch
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Israel's hope is in the earthly kingdom
Israel's hope is Christ cruxified and resurrected.
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Aaron
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Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
Epouranious and Aaron, would each of you please tell me which of the 10 commandments our heavenly position in Christ gives us authority to violate?
Only if you can find a robin that gives birth to crows. Impossible: a robin's nature will never allow it to give birth to crows. Just as I cannot plant wheat and expect to reap a harvest of corn.
I fail to see how that question is the logical argument against "the Mosaic law has been no power over the sons of God".
Perhaps because it seems only two ways are available to men: lawfulness or unlawfulness. However, there is a third way: the law of the Spirit. This is the law/life that attends the apostles, prophets, and the whole of the church. This is why the apostle Paul could write authoritatively about "new" things of God; things that were previously hidden from men.
Aaron
P.S. Does it really seem I am advocating debauchery and hedonism? ![[Confused]](confused.gif) How can that be so? It is contrary to the spirit within me.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Epouranious and Aaron, would each of you please tell me which of the 10 commandments our heavenly position in Christ gives us authority to violate?
Am I now through the blood of Christ and because of heavenly position given permission to:
place other gods before GOD Almighty?
make idols of things earthly or heavenly or below the earth?
Claim HIS Holy name falsely?
Forget the Sabbath and make it common?
Dishonor my parents?
Kill?
commit adultery?
Steal?
Lie?
Covet and lust?
Please do tell me which of these things our saviour died to give me freedom to do?
Then tell me how I can claim to love God with all my being and love my neighbor as Christ loved me and do any of these things?
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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Aaron
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Originally posted by epouraniois:
quote:
Is not the distinction that the law of sin and death was incomplete as Christ was not yet risen? Christ is now risen. The law is now complete...not only bringing knowledge of sin and death, but also life.
Does Jesus not say that His commands are to be kept?
John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.
amen {truth},
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Luk 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
but He did not come for the nations, but only for Israel that she might bring the nations to the knowledge of the Lord, as it is written, and Christ personally declares this:
Mat 15:23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
but when she calls Him Lord, oh, that got Him, where before she called Him by His Hebrew name, so He answered her not a word:
Mat 15:25 Then came she and worshiped him, saying, Lord, help me.
Mat 15:26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
but did call her a dog, as did Hebrews always call us, albeit in the diminutive form, reading; little puppy dog.
my point is, again, when quoting Christ, was He speaking to you and me, or only to the Hebrews? Well, we don't have to guess do we?
Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.
Besides all that, all of the words save for a few parentheticals, should be in red because they are all the Words of God, BUT, Christ's words while in the flesh were not the final truth and revelation:
Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.
Joh 16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show it unto you.
All Israel could have received all truth, but they judged yourselves unworthy of everlasting life {life unto the end of the age} see Act 13:46
So where do we find the final word of truth, the completion of the word of God? In the revelation of the mystery {secret} concerning the heavenly calling:
why, it is that which is written concerning the mystery
Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfill {complete} the word of God;
Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in {among} you, the hope of glory
Hmm. That was good. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Aaron
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epouraniois
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Is not the distinction that the law of sin and death was incomplete as Christ was not yet risen? Christ is now risen. The law is now complete...not only bringing knowledge of sin and death, but also life.
Does Jesus not say that His commands are to be kept?
John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.
amen {truth},
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Luk 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
but He did not come for the nations, but only for Israel that she might bring the nations to the knowledge of the Lord, as it is written, and Christ personally declares this:
Mat 15:23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
but when she calls Him Lord, oh, that got Him, where before she called Him by His Hebrew name, so He answered her not a word:
Mat 15:25 Then came she and worshiped him, saying, Lord, help me.
Mat 15:26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
but did call her a dog, as did Hebrews always call us, albeit in the diminutive form, reading; little puppy dog.
my point is, again, when quoting Christ, was He speaking to you and me, or only to the Hebrews? Well, we don't have to guess do we?
Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.
Besides all that, all of the words save for a few parentheticals, should be in red because they are all the Words of God, BUT, Christ's words while in the flesh were not the final truth and revelation:
Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.
Joh 16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show it unto you.
All Israel could have received all truth, but they judged yourselves unworthy of everlasting life {life unto the end of the age} see Act 13:46
So where do we find the final word of truth, the completion of the word of God? In the revelation of the mystery {secret} concerning the heavenly calling:
why, it is that which is written concerning the mystery
Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfill {complete} the word of God;
Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in {among} you, the hope of glory
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epouraniois
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it might not be a bad idea to check out the *other* memberships the founders of one of the assemblies mentioned on this threaed are sworn unto, and what the agenda of FreeMasonery holds with it's much greater tie that binds, maybe
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epouraniois
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G1378
δόγμα
dogma
dog'-mah
From the base of G1380; a law (civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical): - decree, ordinance.
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the *law* of commandments contained in ordinances *dogma*; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace
G3551
νόμος
nomos
nom'-os
From a primary word νέμω nemō (to parcel out, especially food or grazing to animals); law (through the idea of prescriptive usage), generally (regulation), specifically (of Moses [including the volume]; also of the Gospel), or figuratively (a principle): - law.
firstly, am deciding to let everyone know that when i ask questions, it is because i am seeking Biblical responces. like the child that continues to ask why, why, why, i ask because i do not understand and/or do not know (although it may not be readily appearent, so i clarify my words).
what i am asking, first, my acknowledgments:
the nations, God gave them up, gave them up, gave them over; rom 1. out of 70 nations from the loins of shem, japeth, & ham, the Lord took abram, changed his name and created a new nation because he believed, And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform; Rom 4:21.
So God seperated this tiny nation, named them, and gave them the law that they might be found guilty, so that grace might abound:
Moreover the law entered, that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound; Rom 5:20.
a peculiar nation, seperated in every way, clothing, food, oracles of God, testimony, covenants, the pattern of the true, and so much much more.
And this nation is to remain seperate once called again, is to bless all the nations, is to be a that nation of priests..., BUT, what was not made known was that God had chosen another company to be blessed in the superheavenlies before the foundation of the world to the according to the good pleasure of his will, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved; Eph 1:3-6 .
It is this called out company who is referred to as *the church*. Never was it preached repent for the church is at hand, the church is not the kingdom, rightly dividing the word of truth acknoweldges this because it is written.
This church is at no time given any earthly blessings in the ages to come. This church body will not be a portion of Israel bringing the blessings to all the nations, will not be priests fulfilling Israel's promises. Israel still has a lot of Scripture to fulfill and much to do regarding Mat28:19, &c, &c.
so what about those laws, those shadows and figures of the true???
Heb 9:24 "For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true"
again, all those things given to that one nation was to show them a shadow of that which was to come, so where is it written that we should take the shadows which was given only for Israel's learning, and then continue with the shadows when we have the substance, Christ?
Colossians is the sister letter, pardon my coloqualism, to Ephesians, the latter, oneness, the former, fullness:
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body {substance} is of Christ.
The substance. why chase after shadows? read the letter, God considers that we have died with Him, are buried with Christ, quickened (made alive), risen with Christ, and seated with Christ in the superheavenlies. we are to set our minds not on things of this earth, but on things above where Christ sitteth. our life is hid with Christ in God.
The Lord explains in The Bible that His thoughts are not our thoughts, and it would appear to me that if it isn't written for us specifically, if the Lord did not present us with a sent one, with a message telling us, then it is not acknowledging God's interpretation, rather, it is doing something else with the Holy Word of God.
so when i asked if people naturally claim everythig in a letter written and belonging to someone else, i assume this is not the case, so why do it with God then, rather than simply acknowledge what *is* written. seems to me the last thing we need is man's interpretation and man's reasoning. we have God's interpretation, istn't that good enough? if God wanted to give the nations here, during this parenthises God calls the mystery, until He takes up His work with Israel again, portions of Israel's law, He would have said so. We do not have to reason these things. all we have to do is acknowledge what is written and stay close to the Word.
Paul, the sent apostle to the nations, sent with a specific message to a specific people from a specific source, reminds:
Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Eph 2:13 But now
well, this but now did not occurr until after the salvation of God was sent to the gentiles. it did not bring gentiles under the new covenant, it placed Israel amidst the nations, and if you have read ch3 of Philp, you know that in order for Paul to be a member of the one body called the church, he had to forsake his Hebrewishness, 'I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ' regarding said subject and seeking the reward of the out resurrection out from among the dead, and that is what anyone called to the church which is His body must do:
Phi 3:13I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Phi 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
. gentiles do not have any covenant, much less a new one.
Israel's hope is in the earthly kingdom. the church has it's citezenship in the heavenly places. this was kept secret until after Israel took her place amidst the nations at the end of Acts when she was judiciously and prophetically declared, of herself no less, blind and deaf, becoming Lo-ammi.
i do not understand why it is so difficult to allow God to divide His word of trut where He wills, perhaps it is due to not being aware of when each of the letters were written and to whom they are purposed and addressed, i don't know, but there does seem to be a problem when people want to go to heaven (prison epistles revealed only in the mystery) but then place themselves back on the earth, claiming Israel's covenants.
dogma:
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances *dogma* that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross
Dogma
DOGMA, n. [Gr., to think; L.] A settled opinion; a principle, maxim or tenet; a doctrinal notion, particularly in matters of faith and philosophy; as the dogmas of the church; the dogmas of Plato {websters 1828 dictionary}.
Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col 2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshiping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
Col 2:19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
Col 2:21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
Col 2:22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
Col 2:23 Which things have indeed a show of wisdom in will-worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honor to the satisfying of the flesh.
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Hitch
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Originally posted by Aaron:
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
Oh now I see Arron, now that I walk after the Spirit Of Yahweh, I want love Yahweh with all my heart , mind , body and soul and I can steal, kill, bear false witness, covet my neighbors wife and stuff. Thanks for clearing that up.
Ha! Your post reminded me of the countless others I have erased before sending them when my better judgment defeats my impulsivity.
quote:
Does Jesus not say that His commands are to be kept?
John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.
Sure. But what are the commandments of Jesus? Shortly after speaking the above He gives us this one:
quote:
"This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you."
but then He says this:
quote:
5 "But now I go away to Him who sent Me, and none of you asks Me, 'Where are You going?' 6 But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8 And when He has come, He(previously only those who heard the law were convicted of the law, now that the Holy Spirit has been sent none escape conviction) will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.
12 "I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.
Here is the means by which the Law of the Spirit is given "by the Spirit Himself; from the Father, from Jesus, from the Spirit to men". I believe all of the writings after John's gospel are rife with the teachings of the Spirit...through Luke, Paul, Peter, John, James, etc. And He, the Spirit, continues to teach us today.
Aaron
Teh HS will remind us of and convict us of things already revealed in the Scriptures. He uses the same standard and source Jesus did and as Christ quoted the Law when He told us to love our nieghbor the HS shines the light of the same Law.
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Hitch
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Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
quote:
What is the distinction between the law of sin and death and the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus?
Is not the distinction that the law of sin and death was incomplete as Christ was not yet risen? Christ is now risen. The law is now complete...not only bringing knowledge of sin and death, but also life.
Does Jesus not say that His commands are to be kept?
John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.
Better get a weather report from ol HornHead, I think Help and I agree on something....
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Aaron
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quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
Oh now I see Arron, now that I walk after the Spirit Of Yahweh, I want love Yahweh with all my heart , mind , body and soul and I can steal, kill, bear false witness, covet my neighbors wife and stuff. Thanks for clearing that up.
Ha! Your post reminded me of the countless others I have erased before sending them when my better judgment defeats my impulsivity.
quote:
Does Jesus not say that His commands are to be kept?
John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.
Sure. But what are the commandments of Jesus? Shortly after speaking the above He gives us this one:
quote:
"This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you."
but then He says this:
quote:
5 "But now I go away to Him who sent Me, and none of you asks Me, 'Where are You going?' 6 But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8 And when He has come, He(previously only those who heard the law were convicted of the law, now that the Holy Spirit has been sent none escape conviction) will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.
12 "I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.
Here is the means by which the Law of the Spirit is given "by the Spirit Himself; from the Father, from Jesus, from the Spirit to men". I believe all of the writings after John's gospel are rife with the teachings of the Spirit...through Luke, Paul, Peter, John, James, etc. And He, the Spirit, continues to teach us today.
Aaron
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helpforhomeschoolers
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What is the distinction between the law of sin and death and the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus?
Is not the distinction that the law of sin and death was incomplete as Christ was not yet risen? Christ is now risen. The law is now complete...not only bringing knowledge of sin and death, but also life.
Does Jesus not say that His commands are to be kept?
John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.
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becauseHElives
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Oh now I see Arron, now that I walk after the Spirit Of Yahweh, I want love Yahweh with all my heart , mind , body and soul and I can steal, kill, bear false witness, covet my neighbors wife and stuff. Thanks for clearing that up.
--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Aaron
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quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
If the “Moral Law” of the Ten Commandments is abolished as some suggest, then what Commandments or Laws are wrote on the hearts of the New Covenant believer.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
This is a good question: What is the distinction between the law of sin and death and the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus? Is it just the medium upon which they are written: one stone and the other the heart? If we say they are the same then we have to say that God's intent is to write "sin and death" in the hearts of men. Yet, if we are to be "the sons of God" then we should also share in His nature...is His nature "sin and death"? No, His nature is love and in Him is found life.
Here's the answer:
Hebrews 7:15-16 "And it is yet far more evident if, in the likeness of Melchizedek, there arises another priest who has come, not according to the law of a fleshly commandment, but according to the power of an endless life."
Jesus Christ arose according to the Law of the Spirit of Life, the only law that gives life...for life can only come from the Father through the Son never through the written word(s).
Gal 3:21-25 "Is the [carnal] law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. But [here is the reason the carnal law was given] the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law [this is what I said before: through the carnal law God limited the power of sin and death], kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.[until the faith was revealed] Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.[when we arrive at the destination our means of travel is no longer needed...here our destination is not perfection, our destination is justification by faith..only through the Father and thus His Son, can man be changed. Only from Life can life come.]
Aaron
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becauseHElives
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David ... the Sabbath was not Jewish only, but applied to the entire world. However, it should be noted that in Exodus 31:17 God says (speaking of the Sabbath), "It will be a sign between Me and the Israelites forever". Why didn’t God say, "It will be a sign between Me and all mankind"? Also in Deuteronomy 5:3 we read (in reference to the Ten Commandments), "It was not with our fathers that the LORD made this covenant, but with us, with all of us who are alive here today." This also reinforces the fact that the Ten Commandments (including the Sabbath) were not given before Sinai.
Rom 2:29 But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.
If the “Moral Law” of the Ten Commandments is abolished as some suggest, then what Commandments or Laws are wrote on the hearts of the New Covenant believer.
Jer 31:33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
The above verses and many more prove Gentile believers are part of the common wealth of Israel.
The first Laws “The Tables of Stone” were given on the first Pentecost….
The second giving of the law “the fulfilling of Jeremiah 31: 33” were given at the Feast of Pentecost fifty day after the Crucifying of Yeshua.
What was written in stone at the beginning and broken now because of Yeshua is written upon the heart of flesh, making it a possibility for all those that will walk after the Spirit to no longer break the Law of Yahweh, along with breaking His heart.
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becauseHElives
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epouraniois
define the "Term" saved by "Grace" as used in the New Covenant?
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith ; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Your confusion comes by not understanding "Grace"
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Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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epouraniois
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if anyone has any verses for me to look at, something somewhere telling me that non Hebrew stock of the flesh of Abraham Isacc and Jacob are to continue to keep the law of the Hebrews, especially just the parts of them w/o penalties, I am happy to look at those instructions
if anyone is going to, on the other hand, offer for me to look at things written specifically to, and only for Israel, then I can only ask if it is customary to take what is written to others for thyself, for example, when mail comes having someone elses name on it, is common to take whatever is written to them and believe it was written to you in your own household? or is this a special case? if so, where are the instructions written for so doing?
again, I am happy to look at every portion of God's Holy Word to see if a thing is so, I will search the Scriptures
with all readiness of mind
Daily.
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
if anyone think me to be slamming them, attacking them, or that i am coming from some better than thou place, or anything of the kind, then I would ask too, how is quoting Scripture to lend itself to such a conclusion? I simply am providing some verses. I can only provide that which *is* written. There is no malice coming from here. I didn't write the Book. Those verses are God's interpretation, not mine. I can only acknowledge what I am given by the Lord, and am thankful to have it, but I will not add to it's meaning, nor take what is someone elses' and say that it is mine. It is against my judgment to be found so doing.
To Israel:
Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
To Israel:
Amo 3:2 You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.
Paul goes into great detail regarding attaining to the prize, seeking and receiving a reward, but I have yet to read that it includes taking Jewish Law to non Hebrew peoples, why, even the Hebrews are told the law was only until...since that time...every man presseth into it:
Luk 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
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Aaron
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Originally posted by Duke:
And is it your opinion then that the heavens and earth have passed away? You need to look at the wording because Christ say the law will not change!
I was very busy this weekend so I did not have time to check the discussion. If you don't mind I'd like to pick up here because it accents a point I think is important.
Duke: what you say is important so I'd like to focus on this issue of "the law not passing away". It is true: the law will not pass away nor will it be changed...but what if I am changed? And further: what if my change makes the law powerless to either 1) condemn me or 2) teach me? What then? How then should I regard the law?
A short (and incomplete) example: When I drive a car the law of the road governs my current state. Either I am lawful or unlawful according to my actions. If I should choose to walk to my destination, however, the law of the road has no bearing on my state...it is powerless to affect me in any way. Yet it still remains and has not been changed!
When I was a heathen the law had power over me and was useful in bringing me to a place desired by God. When I became a son, however, the Law of the Spirit of Life took the place of the law of sin and death. Now, the law of sin and death has not changed, but I have changed...therefore the old law loses its power over me and the new law, of Life in Christ Jesus, now governs my life.
Aaron
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KnowHim
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Originally posted by Duke:
But aside from that I think if they want to practice the Sabbath which is holy to God then why would anyone bash that?
I have not seen anyone bash anyone for practicing the Sabbath. I posted:
There seem to be different "degrees" of Seventh-day Adventism. Some Seventh-day Adventists believe identically to orthodox Christians, other than believing that worship should be held on Saturday and that the Saturday Sabbath should still be observed. If these are the only differences, then yes, a person could be a Seventh-day Adventist and still be a true believer in the Lord Jesus Christ.
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Duke
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Well lets see those "But Now" issues because I would be willing to be it has nothing to do with Gods Law!
Even the temple continues to this day of which Christ is the High Priest! Its just not imperect anymore, but perfect!
So what of Gods laws have changed? I cannot even concieve to belittle God by saying He has changed!
And is it your opinion then that the heavens and earth have passed away? You need to look at the wording because Christ say the law will not change!
It seems pretty direct to me!
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epouraniois
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that God gives different messages to different people at different times must not be construed to mean that in order for God to do this God must change.
of course God does not change, but most certainly, as His plan continues to unfold, His messages have changed.
these are easily found in the two small words, 'but now'.
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Duke
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Well I most certainly believe in keeping the laws of God, which includes the ten commandments; yes all of them, I am not a seventh day adventist.
I keep the Gods laws because God does not change and because Christ Himself said not one tittle of the law will change till heaven and earth pass away and "all" is fullfilled!!
Now I really don't know why people have to make such a huge deal out of the Sabbath when it makes it abundently clear that it won't change! Not one bit! Not all is fullfilled and Christ makes this very clear too!
Heaven and earth have not passed away yet!
Now I agree with several points about some of the seventh day adventist beliefs. I personally have met many who think Ellen White was a prophetis, but if some one is going to be a prophet of God then they need to be correct all the time and I found things in her books that were not correct.
Also I disagree with some of them claiming that some of these things as mentioned in Revelations as alread having happened.
But aside from that I think if they want to practice the Sabbath which is holy to God then why would anyone bash that?
It don't make sense to me.
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epouraniois
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ps, law and grace do not, i repeat, do not work together, Biblically:
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, *BUT* under grace.
Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for *IF* righteousness come by the law, *THEN* Christ is dead in vain.
Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are *JUSTIFIED BY* the law; ye are *FALLEN FROM* grace.
Joh 1:17 For the law *WAS* given by Moses, *BUT* grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
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epouraniois
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in case I was not clear before, allow me to more straightforwardly state that I do not care what personal beliefs one has, what I care about is whether or not one is able to acknowledge all that the Bible has to say, permitting the Lord to direct His paths, and acknowledge those things therewith written therein.
you are welcome to believe whatever you want. if it fails to embrace all that is written, I shall point out even this to you, or to anybody, and would hope that everyone would do me the same favor.
cerimonial/moral,
It seems to me you are totally missing the point of the meeting that called the leaders of the day together, there at the synagogue at Jerusalem, for it was exactly about the sabbath and the laws of Moses that they wanted the gentiles to come under:
Act 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
Of all laws/any laws, that is whatis written, they weren't burndened with any other law from any other catagory of law which were Hebrew in origin and charactor, period.
Act 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
Act 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well, Fare ye well.
Act 15:30 So when they were dismissed
So maybe you think the Holy Spirit was wrong, but surely not???
ironically too, it is the first one the Lord set aside, and the first one which the Pharasees sought to murder Him for setting aside.
after even those were dismissedk, we are told how the church is to be:
Phi 2:4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.
Col 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
Col 2:7 Rooted and built up in him, and established in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.
Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross
Col 3:13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
Col 3:14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.
Col 3:15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.
and you know, addressing everyone, including self here, that God did not write this book of letters that we might have beliefs and opinions, it is God's interpretation. We can either acknowledge what is written in it's intirety, or we can for beliefs and deny some of what is written. It is the latter that has been manipulated by the enemy for the cause if division, for the cause of not setting Christ on His rightful place far above all. so if any think there is something that he must do, such as the Jewish sabbath keeping law, then that must be written that gentiles must keep portions of the law, but, alas, it is not, and was never written to anyone but the Hebrew nation.
Isn't't just like mankind? Taking what belongs to someone else and pretending it was given to them/us. We are no better than the Hebrews. They did it. We can see the same thing today too. If it is not written that gentiles should take on the Hewbrew law(s), then it is adding to the word of God.
And what about you 7th dayers not stoning one another to death? Isn't that the penalty for violating the sabbath?
ever use the telephone on the sabbath, drive te car, walk across the street, buy anything, read the paper. the penalty is stoning to death.
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blackdiamond
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It is interesting that you are choosing to discount all of my beliefs simply because you "think" you understand my belief about how the law and grace work together. I don't remember even bringing up the subject. But thanks for being objective and not projecting your idea of my beliefs on me.
I don't have time to read every word in your posts, as I am at work, but it looks like the majority of what you are referring to is what is called the Ceremonial Law, which is completely different from the Moral Law (10 Commandments). The ceremonial law pointed to Christ's sacrifice and no longer has any use or value, but the moral law does still apply. Why is it that generally everyone agrees with all of the commandments with the exception of the Sabbath (7th day) commandment? Ironically, the Sabbath is the only "commandment" that very directly shows up prior to Exodus 20 as it is the conclusion to Creation.
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KnowHim
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Originally posted by epouraniois:
I havn't been here very long, but from what I perceive, the people here aren't very concerned with the belief systems of man, but are more concerned, and rightly so IMO, with what the Bible actually says, irregardless of what club a person might enjoin themselves to.
so, Biblically, on what authority does any non Jew take the law unto themselves? and even more pointedly, only those parts that suit them? for example, according to the law that some wish to 'burden' themselves with, I should expect that we should be reading weekly, if not daily, about people being stoned to death for violations of the Hebrew law.
Have you considered what the Bible actually says:
They had a meeting in the synogague at Jerusalem about this very subject, and the conclusion was this:
Act 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
Act 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well, Fare ye well.
four things, count them, four necessary things that seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to them.
Not one of them mentions the Hebrew Sabbath commandments.
And again, it is written:
Act 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.
I would think that if one is truly interested in what the Bible actually says, taking all of the testimony it brings, then this is a great place to broaden ones knolwedge and acknolwedgment of the Lord. But it might not be so great if one only wishes to consume their own beliefs irregardless of all that the Bible has to say on any subject, for the people here do seem to be rather interested in the larger view, not satisfied with any certain denomination, from which comes the word division.
Very well said.
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epouraniois
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I would add, that even those ordinances were sabolished in His flesh upon Him creating the mystery body, called the church which is His body, following the Acts period:
Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12 That *at that time* ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Eph 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Another prison epistle letter addresses this, and is written because these believers were under attack by outside forces, attempting to distract them to not holding the head, which is Christ, and the apostle addresses this, telling them to not be concerned with those who would judge them for not keeping the law:
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
Better; Which are a shadow of things to come; but the SUBSTANCE is of Christ.
Again, we find Christ railing mercelessly on the Jewish leadership in Ma. 23, saying, in affect, that they were a religeon which worships themselves, and it became their house, He left unto them their house desolate. Further, Christ said that because they said they see (when they could not), they were left in their sin, blinded (to the truth)
Joh 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.
It was Paul's greatest fear that they, the Jews (who only were under the law) might return to the observance of days and times, calling them the beggardly elements in Galatians:
Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
Gal 4:10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
Gal 4:11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labor in vain.
Beggardly elements, bondage, a burden their fathers were unable to bear, and not holding the head - it is these words we are given, Biblically, in regard to those observances. That is what *is* written.
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epouraniois
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I'm still trying to determine if there is any benefit for anyone if I continue to be involved in this board. If people are not willing to honestly look at someones beliefs
I havn't been here very long, but from what I perceive, the people here aren't very concerned with the belief systems of man, but are more concerned, and rightly so IMO, with what the Bible actually says, irregardless of what club a person might enjoin themselves to.
so, Biblically, on what authority does any non Jew take the law unto themselves? and even more pointedly, only those parts that suit them? for example, according to the law that some wish to 'burden' themselves with, I should expect that we should be reading weekly, if not daily, about people being stoned to death for violations of the Hebrew law.
Have you considered what the Bible actually says:
They had a meeting in the synogague at Jerusalem about this very subject, and the conclusion was this:
Act 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
Act 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well, Fare ye well.
four things, count them, four necessary things that seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to them.
Not one of them mentions the Hebrew Sabbath commandments.
And again, it is written:
Act 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.
I would think that if one is truly interested in what the Bible actually says, taking all of the testimony it brings, then this is a great place to broaden ones knolwedge and acknolwedgment of the Lord. But it might not be so great if one only wishes to consume their own beliefs irregardless of all that the Bible has to say on any subject, for the people here do seem to be rather interested in the larger view, not satisfied with any certain denomination, from which comes the word division.
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epouraniois
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Originally posted by becauseHElives:
quote:
I would love it very much if you, or anyone really, could put together the similarities of the churches (plural) proceeding the revelation of the mystery, where church is never plural, but one, the one body, with Christ as the Head. Not the King of the church, but the King of the Jews.
The book of Revelation refers to Yeshua as King of Kings and Lord of Lords
Did you note that He is not once referred to as the King of Kings in the letters that follow Acts, the prison epistles? He is presented as the King of King only where the earthly kingdom is in view, not when the church which is His body is in view. Why do you think that is?
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blackdiamond
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Originally posted by Thunderz7:
thanks for the info blackdiamond
I have a problem with the "click to" sites that condemn everyone not exactly like them, and claim Clear Word is "the SDA Bible" when the SDA sites say Clear Word is not an official version.
Your info seems to be on target.
It does seem this board was more open to different opinions at times, but at present it seems just an accusation by a member "in the click" can get one banned.
be careful
T7
I'm still trying to determine if there is any benefit for anyone if I continue to be involved in this board. If people are not willing to honestly look at someones beliefs without immediately assuming that everything they believe is incorrect, I see no possibility for spiritual growth for anyone.
In my discussion on other boards I have learned a lot about other peoples beliefs and some of them have admitted learning some things from me. There are still several beliefs that I simply cannot wrap my mind around and understand how they fit at all. Several of them were mentioned early in this thread.
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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Originally posted by Thunderz7:
It does seem this board was more open to different opinions at times, but at present it seems just an accusation by a member "in the click" can get one banned.
be careful
T7
^^^^^^ And just what is THAT supposed to mean?
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Thunderz7
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thanks for the info blackdiamond
I have a problem with the "click to" sites that condemn everyone not exactly like them, and claim Clear Word is "the SDA Bible" when the SDA sites say Clear Word is not an official version.
Your info seems to be on target.
It does seem this board was more open to different opinions at times, but at present it seems just an accusation by a member "in the click" can get one banned.
be careful
T7
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blackdiamond
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Originally posted by Thunderz7:
Bob10 didn't answer about the Clear Word Bible and can't answer now;
and like Kindgo I find nowhere to read it on the net.
So do we know of drastic changes it makes from the more standard versions?
T7
Since Bob10 seems to be unregistered these days, I suspect possibly banned, I will provide some info on The Clear Word.
It is published by an Adventist publisher, but is not proported to be official SDA doctrine. I just recently picked up a copy to check out. The Preface says the following, "As has been stated in previous editions, The Clear Word is not a translation, but a devotional paraphrase of Scripture expanded for clarity. It is intended to build faith and nurture spiritual growth. It should not be considered a study Bible. Excellent translations of the Scriptures are available for such purposes." The author, Jack J. Blanco, started writing The Clear Word as a personal devotional excercise and seemingly does not intend for it to be used in the same way as actual translations.
The Clear Word does have an unmistakable SDA "feel" in several of the passages that I specifically went looking for, but given the context of the preface and knowing where it came from, it should be expected. I would never use The Clear Word to support any of my beliefs to another believer or non-believer as that is not it's intended purpose.
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