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Topic: PRETERISM --- DON’T YOU BELIEVE IT !
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Various notes taken from the church of the open book are credited.
The "Messiah" was on the lips of the common people, as can be seen in John 1:20,41; 4:29 as well as in use by inspired speakers like Peter (Matt. 16:16) or of educated men like a High Priest (Matt. 26:63). The Church of the One Body can be in a kingdom without confusion, as sure1y as a "corporation" can be in the kingdom of Great Britain without confusion.
The phraseology of the Apocalypse is much like that of the O.T. and noticeably in the use of the conjunction "and". Thus the book of Exodus commences with the word "now" in the A.V. The Hebrew word is vav which is generally translated "and". A modern writer wou1d not, as a rule, commence a book with "and" but Moses does, in order that no break shall be made between the record of Genesis and Exodus. Leviticus opens with the word "and"-so does Numbers.
So in the book of Revelation there is an interlocking of the narrative by the continuous use of the conjunction "and" (Rev. 5:1, 6:1, 7:1, 8:1) and so on up to chapter twenty-two. There can be no appreciable break between Revelation nineteen and twenty
When comparing Scripture with Scripture, light on the Millennium may be gathered from Daniel, Isaiah or the Psalms, strictly speaking one passage, and one passage only actually names the thousand-year kingdom, and that is Revelation twenty.
We all know the word millennial and it's extractions are not found in Scripture, yet it is a valid term speaking to a period of time known as a thousand years.
Can this period of time be taken literally? Permitting the Scriptures to speak for themselves, we may note:
"An angel. . . laid hold on the dragon. . . and bound him a thousand years". "That he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. "
"I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus . . . and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. "
"They shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, and sha1l go out to deceive the nations" (Rev. 20:1-8).
The references fall into a perfect pattern as might have been expected:
The Thousand Years
A Satan bound
B He will deceive again after he is loosed
C Overcomers reign with Christ
D The First Resurrection
C Priests reign with Christ
A Satan loosed
B He goes out to deceive, after he is loosed.
What then, must take place, which lead to the setting up of the Millennial kingdom?
BABYLON MUST BE DESTROYED (Rev. 19:1-4)
By comparing this passage with Jeremiah 25:9-11 it will be seen that it is a reversal of the doom that fell upon Israel at their captivity by Nebuchadnezzar. This condition is referred to again in Jeremiah 33:4-11. The fall of Babylon is given in detail in Jeremiah fifty and fifty-one.
Associated with this final judgment on Babylon should be noted the following features:
- Israel will return and seek the Lord (Jer. 50:4).
- Israel will be brought back to the Lord (Jer. 50:19).
- Israe1's iniquity will be completely forgiven (Jer. 50:20).
- Israel is exhorted to leave Babylon (Jer. 51:45).
- As the Alleluiahs arise in Revelation 19:1-6 so will heaven and earth sing for Babylon (Jer. 51:48).
The Millennium preceeds by two noted events, final destruction of Babylon and return of Israel.
The return of Israel is linked with the New Covenant (Jer. 31:31-37)
Pantokrator (omnipotent)in the Apocalypse
"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty" (Rev. 1:8).
"Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come" (Rev. 4:8).
"We give Thee thanks, 0 Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because Thou hast taken to Thee Thy great power, and hast reigned" (Rev. 11:17).
"Great and marvellous are Thy works, Lord God Almighty; Just and true are Thy ways, Thou King of Saints (or ages) (Rev. 15:3).
"Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are Thy judgments" (Rev. 16:7).
"The battle of that great day of God Almighty" (Rev. 16:14). "Alleluia: for the Lord God Omnipotent reigneth" (Rev. 19:6). "He treadeth the wine press of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God" (Rev. 19:15).
"And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it" (Rev. 21:22).
There is only one true King in the Revelation, namely He Whose name is The Word (Rev. 19:13,16) and Who is called both King of Kings and Lord of Lords. The time for the assumption of Crown and Sceptre is given in Revelation 11: 15 as the days of the sounding of the seventh trumpet when
"The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever".
At this same time, the time of the dead has come that they should be judged, and reward given to the servants of the Lord, and to His saints; the time when they that destroy the earth should be destroyed. Babylon is addressed in Jeremiah 51:25 as the "destroying mountain, which destroyeth all the earth", which brings this passage into line with the judgment pronounced in Reve1ation 11:18 when the Lord will "destroy them which destroy the earth" and as the desolation of Babylon here predicted is to be "for ever" (Jer. 51:26), this must line up with the destruction of Babylon revealed in Revelation 19:1-6.
Basileo "to reign" occurs seven times in the Revelation. "They (R.V.) reign upon the earth" (Rev. 5:10).
"The seventh angel sounded: . . . He shall reign for ever and ever" (Rev. 11:15).
"Thou hast taken to Thee Thy great power and hast reigned" (Rev.11:17).
"The Lord God Omnipotent reigneth" (Rev. 19:6).
"And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years" (Rev. 20:4).
"And shall reign with Him a thousand years" (Rev. 20:6).
"They shall reign for ever and ever" (Rev. 22:5).
The association of those who overcome and reign with Christ in the Millennial kingdom, His Own reign and the ending of the kingdoms of the earth at the same moment, with no interval for any other kingdom good or evil to intervene, is here displayed by the disposition of the word "reign".
Reigning in the Revelation
A 5:10 The Throne (4 and 5). They (R.V.) reign upon the earth
B 11: 15and 17 The seventh angel sounds Kingdoms of this world end Power taken and reigning
C 19:6 The lord God Omnipotent reigneth Proclamation at the Second Advent immediately before setting up of Millennial kingdom
B 20:4 and 6 Overcomers live and reign with Christ, as priests for a thousand years
A 22:5 The servants of the lamb, reign for ever and ever The Throne (22: I,3).
Being that Revelation is peculiarly Hebrew in charator, quoting some 280 plus OT verses, these 'servants' likewise should not be easily dismissed to be some other called by God, for they are, after all, priests, whereby none other than Israel are priests, Biblically, and prophecied to be so:
Exo 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
The Pre- Millennial Kingdom
"The kingdoms of this world" (Rev. 11:15).
"His kingdom (see the throne of the beast) was full of darkness" (Rev. 16:10).
"The ten horns . . . are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast" (Rev. 17:12).
"Agree . . . give their kingdom unto the beast" (Rev. 17:17).
"And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth (lit. having kingship) over the kings of the earth" (Rev.17:18).
Over against the kingdom of this world, of the Beast, is placed
"The kingdom . . . of Jesus Christ (Rev. 1:9),
and upon the casting out of that old Serpent, called the Devil and Satan which deceiveth the whole world, is heard aloud voice saying "Now is come . . . the kingdom of our God" (Rev. 12:9,10).
Here in Revelation nineteen we have THE Apocalypse, the Second Coming of the Lord. He comes according to this record, not to a world at peace, and not after a kingdom of heaven has been functioning for years and waiting for Him, He comes in righteousness to "make war". He is followed by the armies of heaven, and is seen "clothed with a vesture dipped in blood". The word translated "vesture" is the same in the LXX as that translated "apparel" in Isaiah 63: 1, and is closely associated with that prophecy. At His coming, the Lord is to "rule the nations with a rod of iron"-not merely with a rod, but with a rod of iron. When the Scriptures speak of a "rod of iron" there is little of . the "gentle shepherd" either in the term itself or in the context where it is found, and any explanation that focuses attention on the "rod" but omits all reference to the peculiar feature "of iron" must be held as suspect
This "rod of iron" appears in the first place in Psalm two. This Psalm speaks of Christ as the Anointed, but this has been denied, one of the "proofs" being that as it speaks of "the Lord" as well as "His anointed", and as "The Lord" of the O.T. is the Lord Jesus Christ of the New, the "Anointed" here must be someone else!
What else does Psalm 2 speak of? Conspiracy is the correct answer.
The LXX reads Psalm 2:2 tou Christou autou and identical language is found in Revelation 11:15. Psalm 2:8,9 where again "The Lord" and His "Christ" come together, is quoted in Revelation 2:26,27 as of Christ and it is in a context of rebellion. The Lord's action is revealed to be drastic. "Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron."
If Ginsberg's Massoretic text be accepted, and the word translated "break" in Psalm 2:9 be rendered "rule" or "shepherd" as it is in Revelation 2:26,27, 12:5 and 19:15, is it a true inference that this "shepherding" of the nations is a gentle treatment by a shepherd of his flock?
Right Division may be the order here. A shepherd has a twofold obligation: (I) to look after his flock and (2) to defend it against the attack of robber or wild beast, as David knew only too well. For this the Eastern shepherd was provided with two instruments: (1) the rod for the enemy, (2) the staff or the flock.
Of thirty-four references, four only refer to sheep, and even so, we are now dealing with a "rod of IRON"!!!
"He shall smite the earth with the rod of His mouth, and with the breath of His tips shall He slay the wicked" (Isa. 11:4).
Some codices read ariz ("the oppressor") for erez ("the earth"), and The Companion Bible throws the passage into introversion:
g He shall smite the oppressor
h With the rod of His mouth
h With the blast of His lips
g Shall he slay the lawless one.
Who is this "oppressor" or "lawless one"?
Noting too, that 2 Thessalonians 2:2 should read "the day of the Lord" according to the Revised Text, and this brings the passage into the same period that spans the Apocalypse (Rev. 1:10, "I became in spirit in the Lord's Day", i.e. the future Day of he Lord). That day will be prefaced by the rise of the Man of Sin and in verse 8 we read:
"And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming; even him whose coming is after (wards-in time)the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders" (2 Thess. 2:8,9).
In Revelation 19:17 the application of the "rod of iron" seen in the "supper of the great God"
THE OVERCOMER
Nikao "to overcome"
"To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God" (Rev. 2:7).
Here we have a distinct link with Revelations 22:2.
"He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death" (Rev. 2:11).
Here is a definite link with the close of Revelation twenty.
"To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it" (Rev. 2:17).
This links us with Revelation 19:12, "He had a name written, that no man knew, but He Himself".
"He that overcometh, and keepeth My works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of My Father" (Rev. 2:26,27).
Those thus addressed were to "hold fast till I come" and there is no possible interval (let alone a kingdom lasting centuries), indicated between the time when this overcomer is enduring, and the time of his reward, namely in the Millennium. This passage obviously links up with Revelation 19:15.
"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life" (Rev. 3:5).
Again an obvious link with Revelation 20:15.
"Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, which is New Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from My God: and I will write upon him My new name" (Rev. 3:12).
Here the link with the heavenly Jerusalem of Revelation 19:7-9 and 21:2 is apparent.
"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with Me in My throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with My Father in His throne" (Rev. 3:21)
This points to the Millennial thrones of Revelation 20:4.
"He that overcometh shall inherit all things (or these things)" (Rev. 21:7),
which takes us to the same Millennial day and city.
"I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame" (Dan. 7: 11).
This chapter brings before us four beasts, the first like a lion, the second like a bear, the third like a leopard, and the fourth "dreadful and terrible" with a "mouth speaking great things" (Dan. 7:1-8). This fourth beast appears at the time of the end in Revelation 13:1,2. It is composed of the three first named in Daniel seven. It is like a "leopard", it had feet like a "bear" , it had the mouth of a "lion" and it had a "mouth speaking great things" (Rev. 13:5) stoma laloun megala in both LXX and Greek N.T. In Daniel 7:13 the Son of Man is seen coming upon the clouds of heaven, identical words being used in Matthew 24:30.
"And they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven" epi ton nephelon tou ouranon.
The time of this Coming is indissolubly linked with Daniel 9:27 as Matthew 24:15 will show:
"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place . . ."
and the reference to tribes of the earth mourning in Matthew 24:30 is a reference back to Zechariah 12:10-14.
Again, I say that Christ could not state the time exactly, as there was no way to know for sure, although it was likely, as history shows, that Israel would not receive the kingdom offer held in longsuffering during the Acts period, but they could have!!!
There are different forms of government in the world today, ranging from a monarchy down through a republic and the Soviet conception, to the local government of a village council. Such a word cannot and does not represent the Greek word basileia. This word, in classical Greek means, according to Liddle and Scott, "a kingdom, dominion, hereditary monarchy, a diadem, and as a form of address, majesty". Any appeal to the pagan use of the word but substantiates the claim, that the only form of government that prophecy foreshadows is "a kingdom, dominion, associated with hereditary monarchy, a diadem and majesty" which terms are foreign to any other form of government, save one, that of a king. God's answer to the anarchy of the last days is to announce:
"Yet have I set (or anointed see margin) My KING upon My holy hill of Zion".
Christ, as King, is to sit upon a throne; the word government is not sufficient for this idea. The U.S.A. has a "government",but the President has neither crown, throne nor sceptre. The Son of God is to wear a crown, wield a sceptre and have dominion from sea to sea. As King He is the Anointed, of whom David is the type.
To the church, His body, He is the Head. Never is He the King of the church.
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quote:
Originally posted by Kindgo:
The words last days occur in 9 verses, including 8 exact phrase matches shown first:
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Gen 49:1 And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you [that] which shall befall you in the last days.
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Isa 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, [that] the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
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Mic 4:1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, [that] the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.
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Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
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2Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
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Hbr 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
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Jam 5:3 Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.
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2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
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Here is the 1 remaining inexact match:
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Neh 8:18 Also day by day, from the first day unto the last day, he read in the book of the law of God. And they kept the feast seven days; and on the eighth day [was] a solemn assembly, according unto the manner.
Point? Is there some connection you see here to John six?
BTW as a dedicated Millennialist you dont believe these are the last days anyway. You believe in an entirely new set of days under an entirely new system.
H
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Kindgo
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The words last days occur in 9 verses, including 8 exact phrase matches shown first:
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Gen 49:1 And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you [that] which shall befall you in the last days.
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Isa 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, [that] the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
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Mic 4:1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, [that] the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.
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Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
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2Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
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Hbr 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
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Jam 5:3 Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.
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2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
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Here is the 1 remaining inexact match:
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Neh 8:18 Also day by day, from the first day unto the last day, he read in the book of the law of God. And they kept the feast seven days; and on the eighth day [was] a solemn assembly, according unto the manner.
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002
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Kindgo
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How about 'Latter Days'
The words latter days occur in 12 verses, including 11 exact phrase matches shown first:
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Num 24:14 And now, behold, I go unto my people: come [therefore, and] I will advertise thee what this people shall do to thy people in the latter days.
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Deu 4:30 When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, [even] in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice;
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Deu 31:29 For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt [yourselves], and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands.
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Jer 23:20 The anger of the LORD shall not return, until he have executed, and till he have performed the thoughts of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly.
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Jer 30:24 The fierce anger of the LORD shall not return, until he have done [it], and until he have performed the intents of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it.
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Jer 48:47 Yet will I bring again the captivity of Moab in the latter days, saith the LORD. Thus far [is] the judgment of Moab.
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Jer 49:39 But it shall come to pass in the latter days, [that] I will bring again the captivity of Elam, saith the LORD.
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Eze 38:16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.
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Dan 2:28 But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days. Thy dream, and the visions of thy head upon thy bed, are these;
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Dan 10:14 Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision [is] for [many] days.
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Hsa 3:5 Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.
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Here is the 1 remaining inexact match:
Eze 38:8 After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land [that is] brought back from the sword, [and is] gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002
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Did Somebody say all who are in the graves would be rised at the same time?
Yup ''Day' can mean several things. But when you have to leave out the qualifier that JESUS applied every time He referred to the resurrection in John six, its obvious this argument doesnt apply in this case. But no one runs further and faster from the 'Literal when ever possible' method than its own practioners. Alas 'last day' appears in only two books of Scripture and the majority of uses are right here in John six.
Serioulsy I cant think of an instance in Scripture wrt timeing of 'end time' events that futurist can quote Jesus Christ.
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it might be of some use to realize that the three questions being addressed:
Tell us,
when shall these things be?
and what shall be the sign of thy coming,
and of the end of the world?
are answered inversely
where the word 'world', is the word 'age', or agetimes, in which time was the offering of the kingdom to the Hebrews, being then, at hand, at hand based upon their repentance and re turn to the truth set before them in the Son of God who had fulfilled all things written in the prophets and the Psalms and the Law concerning Him. As Peter declared, this is that...
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And you people say I twist the Scripture,,, LOL
But this is what you must do with all the time references isnt it? Especially anything Jesus spoke of specificly.
Perhaps if Caretaker would open his heart to the Spirit he would gain a Christ centered rather than a rapture centered eschatology.
Sound familiar?
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John 6:
39: And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40: And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
41: The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
42: And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
43: Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44: No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45: It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
46: Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
47: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
48: I am that bread of life.
49: Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50: This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51: I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52: The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53: Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54: Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Day can mean day, event, time.
1 Thess. 4:
14: For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15: For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16: For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18: Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Daniel 12:2 summarizes the two very different fates facing mankind: “Many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.” Everyone will be raised from the dead, but not everyone will share the same destiny. The New Testament reveals the further detail of separate resurrections for the just and the unjust.
Revelation 20:4-6 mentions a “first resurrection” and identifies those involved as “blessed and holy.” The second death (the lake of fire, Revelation 20:14) has no power over these individuals. The first resurrection, then, is the raising of all believers. It corresponds with Jesus’ teaching of the “resurrection of the just” (Luke 14:14) and the “resurrection of life” (John 5:29).
The first resurrection takes place in various stages. Jesus Christ Himself (the “firstfruits,” 1 Corinthians 15:20), paved the way for the resurrection of all who believe in Him. There was a resurrection of the Jerusalem saints (Matthew 27:52-53) which should be included in our consideration of the first resurrection. Still to come are the resurrection of “the dead in Christ” at the Lord’s return (1 Thessalonians 4:16) and the resurrection of the martyrs at the end of the Tribulation (Revelation 20:4).
Revelation 20:12-13 identifies those comprising the second resurrection as the wicked judged by God prior to being cast into the lake of fire. The second resurrection, then, is the raising of all unbelievers; the second resurrection is connected to the second death. It corresponds with Jesus’ teaching of the “resurrection of damnation” (John 5:29).
The event which divides the first and second resurrections seems to be the millennial kingdom. The last of the righteous are raised to reign “with Christ a thousand years” (Revelation 20:4), but the “rest of the dead [that is, the wicked] lived not again until the thousand years were finished” (Revelation 20:5).
What great rejoicing will attend the first resurrection! What great anguish at the second! What a responsibility we have to share the gospel! “And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire” (Jude 23).
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:
Originally posted by Artbook:
these preterist seem almost as extreme as pre-tribers
End Quote by Thunders
The main difference I see is that Preterism is heresy and a pre-trib rapture is the most likely prophetic scenerio for the church. While there are many respected post trib folks around, there are equally as many, if not more , pre trib Bible scholars who hold this view with serious Biblical conviction.
Pre and post trib folks can somewhat fellowship together but not so when Preterism enters the mix.
How do you account for what Jesus said about when the resurection would take place? Jn 6;39-54
Hitch
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Rogg
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I do believe in the pre-trib rapture, and I believe the "snatching away" will take place right before the last 7 years. There is one thing that most Christians miss and ignore is the persecution by the harlot Babylon. The harlot will be persecuting Christians up to the point she is destroyed by the Ten Kings. Babylons destruction is the beginning of the 7 year reign of the anti-christ.
Christians will go through great tribulation before the Rapture.
So we don't know how long Babylon the harlots reign over the kings of the earth will be.
Rev. 18
Jesus tells us we will be delivered up and persecuted for his name.
Matt. 24
I don't think that we will be exempt from that.
Rog
Posts: 83 | From: St. Louis MO | Registered: Jan 2006
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Hitch
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In other words, preterists try to tell us that 70 AD fulfilled everything. There is nothing left but? - they really don’t say. But if that is the case, how do they explain present day Israel back in the land being prepared for their Messiah.???
I've asked this already and as far as I know there was no direct response. My question is the same. How do futurist,especially those who teach the 'rapture' is imminet explain preset day Israel?
If the God's plan for Israel is in abeyance during the so called 'mystery church age' God must have forgotten which dispensation we were supposed to be in.
In the Age of Grace God deals exclusivly with the church,what happened?
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Hitch
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LOL This is about the same as saying all Dispensationalist are Bullingerites.
But it a lot easier to try and smear some one than define 'soon' isnt it?
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Artbook
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these preterist seem almost as extreme as pre-tribers
End Quote by Thunders
The main difference I see is that Preterism is heresy and a pre-trib rapture is the most likely prophetic scenerio for the church. While there are many respected post trib folks around, there are equally as many, if not more , pre trib Bible scholars who hold this view with serious Biblical conviction.
Pre and post trib folks can somewhat fellowship together but not so when Preterism enters the mix.
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For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
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SoftTouch
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AMEN Sister Kindgo! ![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif)
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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Thunderz7
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quote:
Acts 1:11 - "...this same Jesus which is taken up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." - (Bodily, head first, from the Mt. of Olives)
head first seems a bad way to land ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
these preterist seem almost as extreme as pre-tribers ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
T7
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Kindgo
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Preterism is the theory that all future prophecies were nullified by the "fulfillment" (their word) of Matthew 24:34 where Jesus says, "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."
In other words, preterists try to tell us that 70 AD fulfilled everything. There is nothing left but? - they really don’t say. But if that is the case, how do they explain present day Israel back in the land being prepared for their Messiah.???
They claim to be letter perfect in their interpretation of Matthew 23:34, and then proceed to expel or twist all the prophetic things that are still awaiting a future fulfillment.
If all future events were fulfilled by Titus in 70 AD, then what do they do with the following scriptures? Did any of these things take place before, and up to, 70 AD?
An ounce of common sense says, "No."
But if the Preterists’ premise is true, then what do they do with all of these things that have not happened yet?
Acts 1:11 - "...this same Jesus which is taken up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." - (Bodily, head first, from the Mt. of Olives)
Romans 11:12 - "Now if the fall of them (Israel) be the riches of the world (our gospel of Grace), and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles (our age of Grace); how much more their fulness?" (Israel’s future blessing)
Romans 11:23 - "And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graft them in again."
Romans 11:24 - "...how much more shall these, which be the natural branches (Israel), be graffed into their own olive tree?"
Romans 11:25 - "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery (secret), lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part (for a while) is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles (the Body) be come in."
II Thess. 2:3,4 - "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day (the Day of the Lord - the Tribulation) shall not come, except there come a falling away (or a departure) first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."(Compare this with Daniel 11)
II Thess. 2:8 - "And then shall that Wicked (the Anti-christ) be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming."
Jude verses 14 and 15 - "And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all,...."
Now, here are more verses from the Old Testament - I have to keep asking - "Have/Did these things happen before 70 AD?"
Deut. 30:1,2a - "And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, wither the Lord thy God hath driven thee, And shalt return unto the Lord thy God, and shalt obey his voice...."
Ezek. 37:1-10, 12- (the vision of the dry bones) "Therefore prophesy and say unto them (the whole house of Israel), Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves (the Gentile nations), ...and bring you to the land of Israel."
Ezek. 37:21, 22, 23- "And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all: Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God."
Ezek. 47:9- "And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh."
Ezek. 47:10- "And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from En-gedi (now a resort on the West shores of the Dead Sea) even unto En-eglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea (Mediterranean), exceeding many."
Daniel 9:27- "And he (the Prince-the Anti-christ) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week (7 years): and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." (the desolator, the Anti-christ)-(This is the verse Jesus referred to in Matthew 24:15)
Joel 3:2- "I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land."
Joel 3:15, 16- "The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining. The Lord also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the Lord will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel."
Amos 9:15- "And I will plant them (Israel) upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the Lord thy God."
Zech. 14:4- "And his feet (the Lord’s-see verse 3) shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east...." (Compare that with previously quoted Acts 1:11 - He left head first - He returns feet first.)
Zech. 14:8- "And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half toward the hinder sea (Dead Sea): in summer and in winter shall it be." (Compare with previously quoted Ezek. 47:9 and 10.)
Zech. 14:9- "And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one."
These are just a few of the scriptures that refer to future events that could not have taken place before 70 AD.
So, what do Preterists do with all this?
They simply throw them out or twist them so completely that they change their meaning. And what does Scripture say about people who twist Scripture?
II Peter 3:16- "As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002
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