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Topic: MOB
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Hitch
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quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
preterist
A noun
1 preterist
a theologian who believes that the Scripture prophecies of the Apocalypse (as in the Book of Revelations) have already been fulfilled
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_Preterism
Partial Preterism, which is the older of the two views, holds that prophecies such as the destruction of Jerusalem, the Antichrist, the Great Tribulation, and the advent of the Day of the Lord as a "judgment-coming" of Christ were fulfilled c. AD 70 when the Roman general (and future Emperor) Titus sacked Jerusalem and destroyed the Jewish Temple, putting a permanent stop to the daily animal sacrifices. It identifies "Babylon the great" (Revelation 17-18) with the ancient pagan City of Rome or Jerusalem.
Most (but not all) Partial Preterists also believe the term Last Days refers not to the last days of planet Earth or the last days of humankind, but rather to the last days of the Mosaic covenant which God had exclusively with national Israel until the year AD 70. As God came in judgment upon various nations in the Old Testament, Christ also came in judgment against those in Israel who rejected him. The "last days," however, are to be distinguished from the "last day," which is considered still future and entails the Second Coming of Jesus, the Resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous dead physically from the grave in like-manner to Jesus' physical resurrection, the Final Judgment, and the creation of a literal (rather than covenantal) New Heavens and a New Earth free from the curse of sin and death which was brought about by the fall of Adam and Eve. Thus partial preterists are in agreement and conformity with the historic ecumenical creeds of the Church and articulate the doctrine of the resurrection held by the early Church Fathers. Partial preterists hold that the New Testament predicts and depicts many "comings" of Christ. They contend that the phrase Second Coming means second of a like kind in a series, for the Scriptures record other "comings" even before the judgment-coming in AD70. This would eliminate the AD70 event as the "second" of any series, let alone the second of a series in which the earthly, physical ministry of Christ is the first. Partial Preterists believe that the new creation comes in redemptive progression as Christ reigns from His heavenly throne, subjugating His enemies, and will eventually culminate in the destruction of physical death, the "last enemy" (1 Cor 15:20-24). If there are any enemies remaining, the resurrection event cannot have occurred.
Nearly all Partial Preterists hold to amillennialism or postmillennialism. Many postmillennial Partial Preterists are also theonomic in their outlook.
[edit]
Full Preterism
Full Preterism differs from Partial Preterism in that Full Preterists believe all prophecy was fulfilled with the destruction of Jerusalem, including the resurrection of the dead and Jesus' Second Coming or Parousia. Full Preterism is also known by several other names: Consistent Preterism, Covenant Eschatology, Hyper-Preterism (a somewhat derogatory term), and Pantelism (the term "Pantelism" comes from the Greek and means, "all things having been accomplished"). Full Preterism holds that Jesus' Second Coming is to be viewed not as a future-to-us bodily return, but rather a "return" manifested by the physical destruction of Jerusalem and her Temple in AD 70 by foreign armies in a manner similar to various Old Testament descriptions of God coming to destroy other nations in righteous judgment. Full Preterism also holds that the Resurrection of the dead did not entail the raising of the physical body, but rather the resurrection of the soul from the "place of the dead," known as Sheol (Hebrew) or Hades (Greek). As such, the righteous dead obtained a spiritual and substantial body for use in the heavenly realm, and the unrighteous dead were cast into the Lake of Fire. Some Full Preterists believe this judgment is ongoing and takes effect upon the death of each individual (Heb. 9:27). The New Heavens and the New Earth are also equated with the fulfillment of the Law in AD 70 and are to be viewed in the same manner by which a Christian is considered a "new creation" upon his or her conversion.
What is your point? And why did you leav out your personal commentary this time?
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Hitch
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quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
Individual salvation for both Jew and Gentile is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
But there is redemption for Nation Israel, after the fulness of the Gentiles. In the words of Paul:
Romans 11:
24: For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25: For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.
26: And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
That is a common interpretation,among futurists and, as I said before your interpretations are not the equal of Scripture. Even you cant deny that the Deliverer,Savior has come and brought righteousness with him, and first to the jew,,,
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Caretaker
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Individual salvation for both Jew and Gentile is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
But there is redemption for Nation Israel, after the fulness of the Gentiles. In the words of Paul:
Romans 11:
24: For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25: For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.
26: And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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Caretaker
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preterist
A noun
1 preterist
a theologian who believes that the Scripture prophecies of the Apocalypse (as in the Book of Revelations) have already been fulfilled
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_Preterism
Partial Preterism, which is the older of the two views, holds that prophecies such as the destruction of Jerusalem, the Antichrist, the Great Tribulation, and the advent of the Day of the Lord as a "judgment-coming" of Christ were fulfilled c. AD 70 when the Roman general (and future Emperor) Titus sacked Jerusalem and destroyed the Jewish Temple, putting a permanent stop to the daily animal sacrifices. It identifies "Babylon the great" (Revelation 17-18) with the ancient pagan City of Rome or Jerusalem.
Most (but not all) Partial Preterists also believe the term Last Days refers not to the last days of planet Earth or the last days of humankind, but rather to the last days of the Mosaic covenant which God had exclusively with national Israel until the year AD 70. As God came in judgment upon various nations in the Old Testament, Christ also came in judgment against those in Israel who rejected him. The "last days," however, are to be distinguished from the "last day," which is considered still future and entails the Second Coming of Jesus, the Resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous dead physically from the grave in like-manner to Jesus' physical resurrection, the Final Judgment, and the creation of a literal (rather than covenantal) New Heavens and a New Earth free from the curse of sin and death which was brought about by the fall of Adam and Eve. Thus partial preterists are in agreement and conformity with the historic ecumenical creeds of the Church and articulate the doctrine of the resurrection held by the early Church Fathers. Partial preterists hold that the New Testament predicts and depicts many "comings" of Christ. They contend that the phrase Second Coming means second of a like kind in a series, for the Scriptures record other "comings" even before the judgment-coming in AD70. This would eliminate the AD70 event as the "second" of any series, let alone the second of a series in which the earthly, physical ministry of Christ is the first. Partial Preterists believe that the new creation comes in redemptive progression as Christ reigns from His heavenly throne, subjugating His enemies, and will eventually culminate in the destruction of physical death, the "last enemy" (1 Cor 15:20-24). If there are any enemies remaining, the resurrection event cannot have occurred.
Nearly all Partial Preterists hold to amillennialism or postmillennialism. Many postmillennial Partial Preterists are also theonomic in their outlook.
[edit]
Full Preterism
Full Preterism differs from Partial Preterism in that Full Preterists believe all prophecy was fulfilled with the destruction of Jerusalem, including the resurrection of the dead and Jesus' Second Coming or Parousia. Full Preterism is also known by several other names: Consistent Preterism, Covenant Eschatology, Hyper-Preterism (a somewhat derogatory term), and Pantelism (the term "Pantelism" comes from the Greek and means, "all things having been accomplished"). Full Preterism holds that Jesus' Second Coming is to be viewed not as a future-to-us bodily return, but rather a "return" manifested by the physical destruction of Jerusalem and her Temple in AD 70 by foreign armies in a manner similar to various Old Testament descriptions of God coming to destroy other nations in righteous judgment. Full Preterism also holds that the Resurrection of the dead did not entail the raising of the physical body, but rather the resurrection of the soul from the "place of the dead," known as Sheol (Hebrew) or Hades (Greek). As such, the righteous dead obtained a spiritual and substantial body for use in the heavenly realm, and the unrighteous dead were cast into the Lake of Fire. Some Full Preterists believe this judgment is ongoing and takes effect upon the death of each individual (Heb. 9:27). The New Heavens and the New Earth are also equated with the fulfillment of the Law in AD 70 and are to be viewed in the same manner by which a Christian is considered a "new creation" upon his or her conversion.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
Jesus is Coming with clouds and EVERY EYE SHALL SEE, and Nation Israel SHALL BE REDEEMED according to the prophecies which WILL be fulfilled. and Nation Israel SHALL BE REDEEMED according to the prophecies which WILL be fulfilled.
The point of reference is in the redemption of Nation Israel, regardless of your wresting of scriptures, in CONJUNCTION WITH the future return of Christ.
CONTEXT!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It would behoove you in your exegesis.
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Messiah returns and Nation Israel will be redeemed as He destroys the armies of the Beast, Rev. 19.
Paul citing Izzy says now is the time today is the day of salvation. You are contrary.Your interpretation is not the equal of Scripture, Paul's is.
1Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.
2And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;
3And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.
4Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the LORD, and my work with my God.
5And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength.
6And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
7Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.
8Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;
Corinthians 6:2
(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)
You are proposing another Gospel, contrart to Christ and Paul.
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quote:
Originally posted by SoftTouch:
quote:
Originally posted by Hitch:
Its time to put up or shut up but you cant come up with a single quote youy're not much of a caretaker you're a pathetic blohard and nothing more. Full of brimstone and judgements and significant of nothing.
How Completely RUDE and Uncalled For! Not to mention Totally UN-Christ Like! ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
I agree, Jesus was way harder on those who falsely accused Him.
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Caretaker
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Jesus is Coming with clouds and EVERY EYE SHALL SEE, and Nation Israel SHALL BE REDEEMED according to the prophecies which WILL be fulfilled. and Nation Israel SHALL BE REDEEMED according to the prophecies which WILL be fulfilled.
The point of reference is in the redemption of Nation Israel, regardless of your wresting of scriptures, in CONJUNCTION WITH the future return of Christ.
CONTEXT!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It would behoove you in your exegesis.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
Read my posts in context Hitch, whoops you have a problem doing that, but please try to make a feeble attempt. My address was to your denial of the prophecies in regards to Nation Israel, not to the physical return of Christ.
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Hitch:
"Come on Caretaker you're the man you alone speak trhe truth so where is it? Where are all those 'railing's ' against the bodily return of Christ?"
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I do not believe that I even once accused you of denying the physical return of Christ. The accusation validated by posting the truth from the Word, is your denial of the redemption of Nation Israel. There is also a deep concern that you were relegating the MOB to the historical, also your false declaratiuon that Jerusalem is Babylon.
Please try to once read in context, if you have that ability? Your interpretation of scripture leaves that in doubt.
You post a straw man to substantiate a false allegation in your myriad of railings against the truth, that Nation Israel will be redeemed.
Regardless of how much you rail against, and how many scriptures you wrest out of their true context, Hitch, Jesus is Coming with clouds and EVERY EYE SHALL SEE, and Nation Israel SHALL BE REDEEMED according to the prophecies which WILL be fulfilled. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That was you cartaker as was the following
The preterist uses eisegesis and extrapolates their own interpretation onto scripture. Thus they relegate the prophecies to the Coming of Messiah to a historical/spiritual context and quote:
deny the truth of the Return of our Lord Jesus Christ.
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SoftTouch
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quote:
Originally posted by Hitch:
Its time to put up or shut up but you cant come up with a single quote youy're not much of a caretaker you're a pathetic blohard and nothing more. Full of brimstone and judgements and significant of nothing.
How Completely RUDE and Uncalled For! Not to mention Totally UN-Christ Like!
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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Caretaker
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Read my posts in context Hitch, whoops you have a problem doing that, but please try to make a feeble attempt. My address was to your denial of the prophecies in regards to Nation Israel, not to the physical return of Christ.
1) I merely quote the truth from scripture in regards to Christ's return. To nation Israel and the future fate of the Beast and the anti-christ, and their armies.
2) I utilize the Word as my yardstick of truth and post the truth from the Word which you rail against.
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Caretaker:
It is interesting that by denying the yet unfulfilled prophecies concerning Nation Israel, and declaring that the anti-christ has already come, preterism will blindly lead the deceived into the equmenical unity as the coming Anti-christ arises.
In declaring the Mark of the Beast as being a spiritual condition, and having already come, the preterist will be wide open to deception and receiving the actual MOB.
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The physical coming of Christ is a future event.
The receiving the MOB is a future event.
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: is a future event.
Hitch:
"Come on Caretaker you're the man you alone speak trhe truth so where is it? Where are all those 'railing's ' against the bodily return of Christ?"
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I do not believe that I even once accused you of denying the physical return of Christ. The accusation validated by posting the truth from the Word, is your denial of the redemption of Nation Israel. There is also a deep concern that you were relegating the MOB to the historical, also your atagonism towards Jerusalem.
Please try to once read in context, if you have that ability? Your interpretation of scripture leaves that in doubt.
You post a straw man to substantiate a false allegation in your myriad of railings against the truth, that Nation Israel will be redeemed.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
In 2 Thess.2 we read of the Wicked who will be revealed and the Lord will destroy with the brightness of His coming.
In Zech. 12 we read that the Nation Israel shall mourn as they look upon He whom they have pierced.
In Zech. 14 all nations are to be gathered against Jerusalem and His feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives, and it shall split and He shall go forth in battle, and Living Waters shall go forth from Jerusalem.
The Lord is coming and every eye shall see and every tongue confess that He is Lord.
At His coming the Beast and the false Prophet shall be cast into the Lake of Fire.
In Rev. 18 the city Babylon is utterly destroyed and cast down with the fires of God's wrath and judgement, and all the nations of the earth mourn her destruction.
But out of Jerusalem comes rivers of Living water as the Lord goes forth and fights for her against all of the nations arrayed against her.
Messiah returns and Nation Israel will be redeemed as He destroys the armies of the Beast, Rev. 19.
And how does this say that I have denied the bodily return of Christ?
Come on Caretaker you're the man you alone speak trhe truth so where is it? Where are all those 'railing's ' against the bodily return of Christ?
Its time to put up or shut up but you cant come up with a single quote youy're not much of a caretaker you're a pathetic blohard and nothing more. Full of brimstone and judgements and significant of nothing.
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Caretaker
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In 2 Thess.2 we read of the Wicked who will be revealed and the Lord will destroy with the brightness of His coming.
In Zech. 12 we read that the Nation Israel shall mourn as they look upon He whom they have pierced.
In Zech. 14 all nations are to be gathered against Jerusalem and His feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives, and it shall split and He shall go forth in battle, and Living Waters shall go forth from Jerusalem.
The Lord is coming and every eye shall see and every tongue confess that He is Lord.
At His coming the Beast and the false Prophet shall be cast into the Lake of Fire.
In Rev. 18 the city Babylon is utterly destroyed and cast down with the fires of God's wrath and judgement, and all the nations of the earth mourn her destruction.
But out of Jerusalem comes rivers of Living water as the Lord goes forth and fights for her against all of the nations arrayed against her.
Messiah returns and Nation Israel will be redeemed as He destroys the armies of the Beast, Rev. 19.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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LOL Still afraid to address the topic eh?
Why not answer my objections directly Caretaker?
Is it because you cant tell the truth?
Regardless of how much you rail against, and how many scriptures you wrest out of their true context, Hitch, Jesus is Coming with clouds and EVERY EYE SHALL SEE, and Nation Israel SHALL BE REDEEMED according to the prophecies which WILL be fulfilled. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LOL Why dont you produce from my posts where I have stated, implied or intoned that Jesus will not returm bodily in the future? Come on big shot produce these 'railings' you shout about. Can you do it ? Come on your public is wating. What will they think when you're exposed as a fraud and blowhard?
Hitch
This was posted solely because I just became aware the ignore feature only works on PMs..
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Caretaker
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2 Peter 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
2 Timothy 3:
16: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Main Entry: doc•trine
Pronunciation: 'däk-tr&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French & Latin; Middle French, from Latin doctrina, from doctor
1 archaic : TEACHING, INSTRUCTION
2 a : something that is taught b : a principle or position or the body of principles in a branch of knowledge or system of belief : DOGMA c : a principle of law established through past decisions d : a statement of fundamental government policy especially in international relations
Main Entry: re•proof
Pronunciation: ri-'prüf
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English reprof, from Middle French reprove, from Old French, from reprover
: criticism for a fault : REBUKE
Main Entry: 1re•buke
Pronunciation: ri-'byük
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): re•buked; re•buk•ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Old North French rebuker
1 a : to criticize sharply : REPRIMAND b : to serve as a rebuke to
2 : to turn back or keep down : CHECK
synonym see REPROVE
- re•buk•er noun
Main Entry: cor•rec•tion
Pronunciation: k&-'rek-sh&n
Function: noun
1 : the action or an instance of correcting : as a : AMENDMENT, RECTIFICATION b : REBUKE, PUNISHMENT c : a bringing into conformity with a standard d : NEUTRALIZATION, COUNTERACTION <correction of acidity>
2 : a decline in market price or business activity following and counteracting a rise
3 a : something substituted in place of what is wrong <marking corrections on the students' papers> b : a quantity applied by way of correcting (as for adjustment of an instrument)
4 : the treatment and rehabilitation of offenders through a program involving penal custody, parole, and probation; also : the administration of such treatment as a matter of public policy -- usually used in plural
- cor•rec•tion•al /-shn&l, -sh&-n&l/ adjective
Main Entry: righ•teous
Pronunciation: 'rI-ch&s
Function: adjective
Etymology: alter. of earlier rightuous, alteration of Middle English rightwise, rightwos, from Old English rihtwIs, from riht, noun, right + wIs wise
1 : acting in accord with divine or moral law : free from guilt or sin
2 a : morally right or justifiable <a righteous decision> b : arising from an outraged sense of justice or morality <righteous indignation>
3 slang : GENUINE, GOOD
synonym see MORAL
- righ•teous•ly adverb
- righ•teous•ness noun
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
Hitch:
quote:Originally posted by Caretaker:
The relegation of true prophecy yet to be fulfilled to symbolism and to 70 AD, arose from the RCC Jesuits, with the replacement of Nation Israel with the Church as spiritual Israel. Very convenient until, WHOOPS here comes restored Israel upon the scene in 1948.
How inconvenient for those who relegate the yet to be fulfilled prophecies of the conquring Messiah and the redemption of Nation Israel to the spiritual and historical realm.
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LOl So you admit that ALL those who taught the imminent rapture, the ptr-trib doctrine you espouse, prior to 1948 were wrong.
BTW I didnt expect you woud answer my last few posts. LOL
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The pre-trib rapture does not support replacement theology.
If you possessed the intrinsic ability to read within context you would realize that that was not what I said. I was referencing the fact that those who relegate the tribulation, the anti-christ, and the coming future prophecies concerning Israel to history are in error, and that those who believe the false theology of replacementism follow teaching from a RCC Jesuit and are deceived.
The cowardly I put on ignore.
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Hitch:
quote:Originally posted by Caretaker:
The relegation of true prophecy yet to be fulfilled to symbolism and to 70 AD, arose from the RCC Jesuits, with the replacement of Nation Israel with the Church as spiritual Israel. Very convenient until, WHOOPS here comes restored Israel upon the scene in 1948.
How inconvenient for those who relegate the yet to be fulfilled prophecies of the conquring Messiah and the redemption of Nation Israel to the spiritual and historical realm.
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LOl So you admit that ALL those who taught the imminent rapture, the ptr-trib doctrine you espouse, prior to 1948 were wrong.
BTW I didnt expect you woud answer my last few posts. LOL
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The pre-trib rapture does not support replacement theology.
If you possessed the intrinsic ability to read within context you would realize that that was not what I said. I was referencing the fact that those who relegate the tribulation, the anti-christ, and the coming future prophecies concerning Israel to history are in error, and that those who believe the false theology of replacementism follow teaching from a RCC Jesuit and are deceived.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:
Originally posted by Kindgo:
Epharaem the Syrian said, in 373 AD, "For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."
To say that Israel is no longer God's chosen people is really playing with fire because the Antichrist will likely be saying the same thing when he tries to destroy the Jews during the tribulation. I look for people that hold to replacementism to be in the cheering section when the Beast goes on his Jew-killing campaign. "The Lord will not reject his people; he will never forsake his inheritance" (Psalm 94:14).
"This is what the Lord says, he who appoints the sun to shine by day, who decrees the moon and stars to shine by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar - the Lord Almighty is his name: 'Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,' declares the Lord, 'will the descendants of Israel ever cease to be a nation before me'" (Jeremiah 31:35-36).
I would invite you to discuss this on my AList thread.
H
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quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
The relegation of true prophecy yet to be fulfilled to symbolism and to 70 AD, arose from the RCC Jesuits, with the replacement of Nation Israel with the Church as spiritual Israel. Very convenient until, WHOOPS here comes restored Israel upon the scene in 1948.
How inconvenient for those who relegate the yet to be fulfilled prophecies of the conquring Messiah and the redemption of Nation Israel to the spiritual and historical realm.
LOl So you admit that ALL those who taught the imminent rapture, the ptr-trib doctrine you espouse, prior to 1948 were wrong.
BTW I didnt expect you woud answer my last few posts. LOL
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Kindgo
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Epharaem the Syrian said, in 373 AD, "For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."
To say that Israel is no longer God's chosen people is really playing with fire because the Antichrist will likely be saying the same thing when he tries to destroy the Jews during the tribulation. I look for people that hold to replacementism to be in the cheering section when the Beast goes on his Jew-killing campaign. "The Lord will not reject his people; he will never forsake his inheritance" (Psalm 94:14).
"This is what the Lord says, he who appoints the sun to shine by day, who decrees the moon and stars to shine by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar - the Lord Almighty is his name: 'Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,' declares the Lord, 'will the descendants of Israel ever cease to be a nation before me'" (Jeremiah 31:35-36).
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002
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Caretaker
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The relegation of true prophecy yet to be fulfilled to symbolism and to 70 AD, arose from the RCC Jesuits, with the replacement of Nation Israel with the Church as spiritual Israel. Very convenient until, WHOOPS here comes restored Israel upon the scene in 1948.
How inconvenient for those who relegate the yet to be fulfilled prophecies of the conquring Messiah and the redemption of Nation Israel to the spiritual and historical realm.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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Thunderz7
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Seems to me there is spiritual and literal application of all scripture.
To say
all is literal and none spiritual,
is just as much error as saying,
all is spiritual and none literal.
One in the ditch on the right of the road,
the other in the ditch on the left of the road,
neither in the middle of the road, moving forward!
T7
Posts: 1113 | From: Northeast Alabama | Registered: Jun 2002
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Hitch
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The questions are endless. Why did we have the rebirth of Israel?
Indeed. If the 'rapture' is imminent and there is a GAP between Dan's 69th and 70th weeks and the church is an unprophecied mystery not to be found in the ancient Scriptures how do you account for modern Israel as a fulfillment of prophcy?
Especially sine all the doctrines of imminent rapture were developed before 1948. oooops!
Take care
Hitch
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quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
The Word of God stands Hitch and the King of Kings IS Returning, and EVERY EYE SHALL SEE, as our Lord Jesus declared.
Matt. 24:
23: Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24: For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25: Behold, I have told you before.
26: Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27: For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Acts 1:
9: And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10: And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11: Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
1 Peter 5:
4: And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.
Rev. 1:7
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen
Regardless of how much you rail against, and how many scriptures you wrest out of their true context, Hitch, Jesus is Coming with clouds and EVERY EYE SHALL SEE, and Nation Israel SHALL BE REDEEMED according to the prophecies which WILL be fulfilled.
The WORD stands and your misinterpretation is contrary to the TRUTH of God's WORD.
LOL Why dont you produce from my posts where I have stated, implied or intoned that Jesus will not returm bodily in the future?
I'll wait
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Caretaker
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The Word of God stands Hitch and the King of Kings IS Returning, and EVERY EYE SHALL SEE, as our Lord Jesus declared.
Matt. 24:
23: Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24: For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25: Behold, I have told you before.
26: Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27: For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Acts 1:
9: And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10: And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11: Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
1 Peter 5:
4: And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.
Rev. 1:7
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen
Regardless of how much you rail against, and how many scriptures you wrest out of their true context, Hitch, Jesus is Coming with clouds and EVERY EYE SHALL SEE, and Nation Israel SHALL BE REDEEMED according to the prophecies which WILL be fulfilled.
The WORD stands and your misinterpretation is contrary to the TRUTH of God's WORD.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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Hitch
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Kathy!!!!!!
The preterist must replace Nation Israel with spiritual Israel, under their understanding as being the Church. This is replacement theology and must wrest scriptures out of their valid context in order to prove their position. It does a disservice to God's Word and is contrary to proper exegesis.
I've started a thred dedicated to this topic,, the AList. Included are many apostolic references from the ancient Scriptures declaring that the church is the people of God etc. If you care to take them on one by one thats the place.
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Hitch
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The heart of this error is based on Jesus' statement that "this generation shall not pass, till all things be fulfilled" (Mat 24:34). It seems easy enough to claim Jesus was speaking about a first-century generation; however, logic ends there when one contemplates the fulfillment of all Bible prophecy.
Well its not like Jesus knew anything about dispensational eschatology....This is a clear demonstration that in your torture of the Scriptures even the plainest statemets of JESUS CHRIST himself are not above your correction.
In fact you cant produce a single quote from Christ to support your time scheme.
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quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
Hitch:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
John 19:37 indeed fulfills Zech. 12:10, and they shall look on Him whom they have pierced.
It is His second coming which fulfills Zech. 12-14 in its entirity, when Nation Israel shall MOURN and Sorrow, and when they shall recognize Jesus has fullfilled ALL of the prophecies of the suffering Messiah, and on THAT day WILL fulfill ALL of the prophecies of the Reiging Messiah, the Righteous Reign of the Root of Jessie, the Lord of Lords and the King of Kings.
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Well you need to convince John of your asertion. In the mean I will rest with what has been inspired by the HS. But if you have any apostolic authority to support your claim please present it.
Take care
Hitch
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The Word of God stands Hitch, and does not contradict itself. It is true in its entirity, including the future redemption of Nation Israel.
Your interpretation is flawed at best, and must twist the true context of ALL scripture to prove itself.
Romans 11:
24: For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25: For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.
26: And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Jesus said that all who were taught by the Father believed. The entire NT teaches that Christ came in fulfillment of the promises and prophecies. And that God crowned Him and enthrones Him and that He has been 'reigning' since the ascention.
What you propose is another gospel,based on physical sight . tsk tsk.
Hitch
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Caretaker
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Hitch:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
John 19:37 indeed fulfills Zech. 12:10, and they shall look on Him whom they have pierced.
It is His second coming which fulfills Zech. 12-14 in its entirity, when Nation Israel shall MOURN and Sorrow, and when they shall recognize Jesus has fullfilled ALL of the prophecies of the suffering Messiah, and on THAT day WILL fulfill ALL of the prophecies of the Reiging Messiah, the Righteous Reign of the Root of Jessie, the Lord of Lords and the King of Kings.
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Well you need to convince John of your asertion. In the mean I will rest with what has been inspired by the HS. But if you have any apostolic authority to support your claim please present it.
Take care
Hitch
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The Word of God stands Hitch, and does not contradict itself. It is true in its entirity, including the future redemption of Nation Israel.
Your interpretation is flawed at best, and must twist the true context of ALL scripture to prove itself.
Romans 11:
24: For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25: For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.
26: And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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Hitch
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quote:
When was the Gospel preached to all the nations?
17So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
5For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
6Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world ; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:
Rant on Caretaker.
H
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Caretaker
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It is interesting that by denying the yet unfulfilled prophecies concerning Nation Israel, and declaring that the anti-christ has already come, preterism will blindly lead the deceived into the equmenical unity as the coming Anti-christ arises.
In declaring the Mark of the Beast as being a spiritual condition, and having already come, the preterist will be wide open to deception and receiving the actual MOB.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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Hitch
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quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
John 19:37 indeed fulfills Zech. 12:10, and they shall look on Him whom they have pierced.
It is His second coming which fulfills Zech. 12-14 in its entirity, when Nation Israel shall MOURN and Sorrow, and when they shall recognize Jesus has fullfilled ALL of the prophecies of the suffering Messiah, and on THAT day WILL fulfill ALL of the prophecies of the Reiging Messiah, the Righteous Reign of the Root of Jessie, the Lord of Lords and the King of Kings.
Well you need to convince John of your asertion. In the mean I will rest with what has been inspired by the HS. But if you have any apostolic authority to support your claim please present it.
Take care
Hitch
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Caretaker
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Amen Kathy!!!!!!
The preterist must replace Nation Israel with spiritual Israel, under their understanding as being the Church. This is replacement theology and must wrest scriptures out of their valid context in order to prove their position. It does a disservice to God's Word and is contrary to proper exegesis.
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http://www.raptureme.com/rr-preterism.html
One of my key reasons for believing in the pre-tribulation rapture is the fact all other views are always trying to undermine pre-tribulationism. Up until now, the most vocal group of opponents has been the post-trib and pre-wrath folks. I'm amazed to find preterism now on the attack, gaining ground by mostly converting pre-tribbers.
What is preterism? This theory argues that all Bible prophecy has been fulfilled; it states that nothing remains on the prophetic calendar. According to preterism, events like the rise of the Antichrist, the tribulation, the rapture, and the Day of the Lord all took place around 70 AD, the year the Romans invaded Jerusalem and destroyed the second Temple.
I just cannot understand how anyone can follow a preterist line of thinking in light of current world events. As in many cases, pride is one of the most common reasons people begin following doctrinal error. They believe that they are part of a special group that has discovered a hidden truth. Never mind the fact that millions of people have joined them in supporting their folly.
Up until now, I've largely been ignoring preterism because it seemed equivalent to the Flat Earth Society. Well, I can't stand by and watch error run free, so it looks like I'm going to have to add preterism to the list of erroneous rapture views that I need to actively refute.
The heart of this error is based on Jesus' statement that "this generation shall not pass, till all things be fulfilled" (Mat 24:34). It seems easy enough to claim Jesus was speaking about a first-century generation; however, logic ends there when one contemplates the fulfillment of all Bible prophecy.
In order to make 70 AD the magic year, we would have to delete dozens of prophecies that were never fulfilled. When was the Gospel preached to all the nations? When was the Mark of the Beast implemented? What about China's 200-million-man army? When did 100-pound hailstones fall from the sky? And what date was it when the Euphrates River dried up?
The questions are endless. Why did we have the rebirth of Israel? If Jerusalem was forever removed from being the burdensome stone, why has it now returned to that status? When did all the Jews shout, "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord," as Jesus said they would?
After being so strict in their interpretation of Matthew 24:34, preterists then run roughshod over many clear statements of Scripture. They say that although the "resurrection" happened in 70 AD, the bodies of Christians were left in the grave.
Preterists take the dangerous step of spiritualizing all passages of Scripture that relate to the nation of Israel, and claim that these refer to the church, the "New Israel." They teach that the "old earth," which Scripture says will pass away, is the Old Covenant. The new heaven and new earth, they say, is the New Covenant, and the "elements," which Scripture says will burn with fervent heat when this happens, are the "elements of the law."
Preterism produces some bizarre explanations for why the world is still experiencing suffering and calamity. One explanation I ran across cited God's need for population control as the reason for mankind's suffering. Here is what one preterist author wrote:
"I believe that people are born and people die. Kingdoms rise and kingdoms fall. God is the providential population controller. He brings famine, disease, natural catastrophes, wars and tumults. One-third of the population of Europe was destroyed by the Black Plague in the early part of this millennium. Eight hundred fifty thousand were killed in the 1556 earthquake in the Shanghai province of China. Two million were killed in World War II. Thirteen million were killed under Stalin and 6 million under Hitler. God is very equipped to control population."
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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Caretaker
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Individual salvation for both Jew and Gentile is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
But there is redemption for Nation Israel, after the fulness of the Gentiles. In the words of Paul:
Romans 11:
24: For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25: For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.
26: And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
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Kindgo
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Amen Drew!
The description of verses 12-14 indicates there will be both great individual repentance and great corporate repentance.
Jesus promised that He would not return until He was welcomed by Jerusalem's people (Matthew 23:37-39); Paul knew that one day, Israel as a people would be saved (Romans 11:25-29)
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002
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Caretaker
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John 19:37 indeed fulfills Zech. 12:10, and they shall look on Him whom they have pierced.
It is His second coming which fulfills Zech. 12-14 in its entirity, when Nation Israel shall MOURN and Sorrow, and when they shall recognize Jesus has fullfilled ALL of the prophecies of the suffering Messiah, and on THAT day WILL fulfill ALL of the prophecies of the Reiging Messiah, the Righteous Reign of the Root of Jessie, the Lord of Lords and the King of Kings.
--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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Hitch
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34But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
35And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.
36For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled , A bone of him shall not be broken.
37And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.
Like Paul's, John's inspired interpretations are the equal of Scripture and are in fact Scripture themsselves. Here John has declared in the plainest of terms the fulfillment of the passage you say is yet to come to pass. I'll believe John.
Now if you would care to explain why Pauls says the Day of Salvation is now, and you say the Jews must wait for some later dispensation...
Take care
Hitch
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Caretaker
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In THAT DAY shall they behold HE whom they pierced:
Zech. 12-14
9: And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10: And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11: In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
12: And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
13: The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
14: All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.
1: In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.
2: And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.
3: And it shall come to pass, that when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the LORD: and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth.
4: And it shall come to pass in that day, that the prophets shall be ashamed every one of his vision, when he hath prophesied; neither shall they wear a rough garment to deceive:
5: But he shall say, I am no prophet, I am an husbandman; for man taught me to keep cattle from my youth.
6: And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.
7: Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
8: And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9: And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.
1: Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2: For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3: Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4: And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
IN THAT DAY the Lord is returning, as He left:
Acts 1:
9: And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10: And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11: Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
12: Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.
In THAT DAY Every eye shall see.
Matt. 24:
27: For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28: For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29: Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
In THAT DAY HE will return as Lord of Lords and King of Kings and will reign:
Rev. 19:
11: And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12: His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13: And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14: And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15: And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16: And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
It WILL happen IN THAT DAY.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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To coin a phrase, your position appears to be that when the nation 'looks on Him whom they have pierced ' in fulfillment of Zs prophecy all or most of these things will come to pass. Is that correct? Third and last repetition.
Im begining to think you're afraid to answer dircetly Caretaker.
And if you just want to blowhard without responding directly please be kind enough to start your own thread. There is ample space on the forum for your windy discharges, I will ask that you keep to topic on this thread.
BTW your posts are far too long.
Take care
Hitch
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To coin a phrase, your position appears to be that when the nation 'looks on Him whom they have pierced ' in fulfillment of Zs prophecy all or most of these things will come to pass. Is that correct?
Im begining to think you're afraid to answer dircetly Caretaker.
BTW your posts are far too long.
Take care
Hitch
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Caretaker
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Zech.12-14:
1: The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.
2: Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
3: And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
4: In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.
5: And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God.
6: In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.
7: The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
8: In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
9: And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10: And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11: In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
12: And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
13: The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
14: All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.
1: In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.
2: And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.
3: And it shall come to pass, that when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the LORD: and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth.
4: And it shall come to pass in that day, that the prophets shall be ashamed every one of his vision, when he hath prophesied; neither shall they wear a rough garment to deceive:
5: But he shall say, I am no prophet, I am an husbandman; for man taught me to keep cattle from my youth.
6: And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.
7: Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
8: And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9: And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.
1: Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2: For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3: Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4: And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5: And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6: And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7: But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8: And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9: And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
10: All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
11: And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
12: And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
13: And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.
14: And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.
15: And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the *** , and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.
16: And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17: And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18: And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19: This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
20: In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD's house shall be like the bowl's before the altar.
21: Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.
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http://www.therefinersfire.org/preterism.htm
The Error of Preterism
By Jan Markell
Preterism is the eschatalogical teaching that all Bible prophecy is history. Most of it took place in 70 AD with the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans. The Tribulation was the persecution of the saints and Nero was the antichrist. At the heart of the doctrine is that prophecy was declared and destined to be fulfilled within the generation of Christ's earthly ministry. All references in the Bible to the "last days" refer to the "last days" of Israel, which means that today she has no more relevance than the Canary Islands. The "New Jerusalem" is the Church now and forever. It will "Christianize" the world.
There are "Full Preterists" and "Partial Preterists." Partial Preterists actually consider much of what Full Preterists teach to be heretical. A Full Preterist says that Jesus returned "in spirit" in 70 AD and NOTHING is future. Good-bye "blessed Hope." We're in "the New Heavens and New Earth" right now and Satan is bound. But to Full and Partial Preterists, hardly anything is taken literally--most all is allegorical or symbolic, particularly the entire book of Revelation. To all Preterists, the Olivet Discourse is not about the coming of our Lord but about the destruction of Jerusalem. Revelation was not written in 95 AD but much earlier according to Full and Partial Preterists.
Partial Preterists do believe in a Second Coming, resurrection of believers (but not in the Rapture), and Judgment Seat of Christ. They do not believe in a literal Millennium, Battle of Armageddon, literal antichrist, or a role for national Israel. Prominent Partial Preterists include Gary DeMar, R.C. Sproul, Ken Gentry, and "The Bible Answerman", Hank Hanegraaff.
# Everything is taken symbolically including the Millennium. Actually, there is no Millennium as Dispensationalists know it. We are now in the "Kingdom of Christ" and have been since the days of the early church. Satan is bound, even though the earth is reeling with sorrow, pain, disasters, and godless governments under Communism and radical Islam. More than 50 million believers have died since 70 AD and there have been 15,000 wars. Some "Kingdom"! Our Lord must be weeping.
# Jesus isn't coming back so what do they do with such obvious scriptures as Acts 1:11, "This same Jesus which is taken up from you into Heaven shall so come in like manner as you have seen Him go"? This should be a challenge to the Full Preterists who believe He came back "in spirit" in 70 AD and that's it for His return!
# The Jews as a nation did not turn to Messiah in 70 AD as prophesied in Zechariah 12:10.
# If all these events took place in 70 AD, when were the nations judged as described in Matthew 25:31-46. They weren't back then because this is FUTURE.
# As for Nero--he wasn't the antichrist! He died in 68 AD before the destruction of Jerusalem. He was a whimpy emperor though evil, indeed. But he doesn't come close to being the "King of fierce countenance" of Daniel 8:23 and he made no covenant with Israel, Daniel 9:26, 27. Dispensationalists believe he will be destroyed by the King of kings, but Nero committed suicide. Before that, he issued no "mark" and people could buy and sell. He sat in no Temple declaring himself God, demanding he be worshipped (II Thess. 2:4). All Preterists deny there will be future Temples such as the Tribulation Temple and Millennial Temple.
# The vials, bowls, seals, and trumpet judgments of Revelation are all symbolic to all Preterists. Thus the carnage (and victory) of Revelation is overlooked and written off.
# Why can people with this theology accept that all of the prophecies of Jesus' first coming were fulfilled literally but Second Coming verses must be symbolic? Are we permitted to pick and choose like this and remain with any hermeneutical credibility and accuracy? This is biblically and intellectually disingenuous.
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http://www.prophecyupdate.com/revelation_chapter_17.htm
Rev 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
Rev 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead [was] a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
What John saw. John is carried away into the wilderness; the desolate nature of the wilderness is an appropriate setting for a vision of judgment. The harlot rides the same beast (seven heads and ten horns) which was previously seen in Revelation 13:1 - the Antichrist and his dictatorship. Her association with blasphemy and the dragon's beast are clearly seen from God's perspective; but to the people of the earth she will look quite religious, having the "faith" everybody wants.
She is clothed with emblems of luxury (purple . . . gold and precious stones) and government (scarlet); yet she offers idolatry (abominations) and impurity (filthiness of her fornication) in this sumptuous setting. Purple and scarlet were colors of splendor and magnificence; the dyes to make them were rare and costly. "We find in the course of church history that one of the deadliest marks of ecclesiastical corruption is the lust for temporal power" (Barnhouse); purple and scarlet were the colors of rulers, whether economic or political. The name on her forehead identifies her in more ways than one; Roman prostitutes frequently wore a head-band with their name engraved upon it. None the less, "In spite of all her glamour she is nothing but a prostitute" (Johnson).
There is a stark contrast between the woman of chapter 12 (representing Israel, God's people), and this woman (representing idolatrous, false religion). This title is not for literal Babylon; but its spiritual (mystery) representation, which is the source (mother) of all idolatry (abominations) and spiritual adultery (harlots). This harlot must be larger than any one branch of a religious institution; she is the embodiment of Satan's own ecumenical movement - the religion of the world system. Our world, with its "it doesn't matter what you believe as long as you believe" philosophy is ripe for the harlot's seductions; we see the casual disregard for the truth crippling the church today. She not only persecutes; she revels in her persecution of the godly as a drunk revels in wine.
Why is John amazed? Because this isn't pagan persecution (such as he knew in his day), but religious error and persecution; this is a psuedo-church after the blood of the saints.
We should never forget that some of the most vicious persecution conducted against true Christians has been done in the name of the church; in the days when the Roman Catholic Queen Mary ruled England (known as "Bloody Mary" for good reason), some 288 Christians were burnt at the stake for their stand for Christian truth between 1555 and 1558. The first of these martyrs was a man named John Rogers, who, as he stood chained to a stake, and the fire rose around him, up to his legs and shoulders, he rubbed his hands in the flames as if he were washing his hands in cold water; then he lifted his hands to the heavens and held them high until he was completely consumed by fire. This barbarity was committed in the name of religion, in the name of the church. But Rogers went to the stake with such calm and dignity that the French Ambassador wrote that he went to his death "as if he was walking to his wedding." His courage was so evident that the huge crowd burst into applause when they saw him walking to the stake.
Rev 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
The great harlot is interpreted. The angel tells John that the harlot will be explained to him. The focus of the explanation is on the beast; it appeared that the harlot ruled (rode) the Antichrist's system, but he is the dynamic factor, using her as tyrants have always used religion - as a mere tool to accomplish their purposes.
Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
The beast is plainly connected with the beast of chapter 13.
Rev 17:9 And here [is] the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
Seven mountains. Many associate the seven mountains with Rome and the Papacy, because Rome is well known as the city on seven hills; yet, literally, the Greek word means mountains, not hills. But, mountains are sometimes a figure of governments (such as in Daniel 2:35) and the city of Rome is built on hills, not mountains.
"...seven mountains": Mountains = governments in prophecy (Dan 2:25,44 et al.). Horace wrote, "The gods, who look with favor on the seven hills..." Ovid: "But Rome looks around on the whole globe from her seven mountains, the seat of empire and abode of the gods": Augustine wrote, "Babylon is a former Rome, and Rome is a later Babylon." Even Peter is regarded as using Babylon as a "code name" for Rome (1 Pet 5:13), although some take it as literal.
It is probably better to see the seven mountains as the seven kings/kingdoms described in verse 10; many people find the connection between religious Babylon and Roman Catholicism as irresistible; yet it is flawed in the sense that there is no doubt that religious Babylon will incorporate a strong Roman Catholic element, but it will be bigger than Roman Catholicism. Indications about Roman Catholicism's ultimate partnership with a one-world religion are evident in Pope John Paul II's bizarre involvement with and approval of other anti-Christian religions. In addressing a prayer gathering of Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists and others, Pope John Paul II told participants that their efforts were "unleashing profound spiritual energies in the world and bringing about a new climate of peace"; the Pope pledged that "the Catholic Church intends to 'share in and promote' such ecumenical and inter-religious cooperation."
The Catholic Review commented on this and said, "The unity of religion promoted by the Holy Father Pope John Paul II and approved by His Holiness the Dalai Lama is not a goal to be achieved immediately, but a day may come when the love and compassion which both Buddha and Christ preached so eloquently will unite the world in a common effort to save humanity from senseless destruction, and leading to toward the light in which we all believe."
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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To coin a phrase, your position appears to be that when the nation 'looks on Him whom they have pierced ' in fulfillment of Zs prophecy all or most of these things will come to pass. Is that correct?
Take care
Hitch
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Zech. 14:
8: And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9: And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
10: All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
11: And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
12: And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
13: And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.
14: And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.
15: And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the *** , and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.
16: And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17: And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18: And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19: This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
20: In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD's house shall be like the bowl's before the altar.
21: Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.
Isaiah 11:
1: And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
2: And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
3: And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
4: But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
5: And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
6: The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7: And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8: And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
9: They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
10: And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
11: And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
12: And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
13: The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.
14: But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them.
15: And the LORD shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod.
16: And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
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Messiah returns and Nation Israel will be redeemed as He destroys the armies of the Beast, Rev. 19.
Paul citing Izzy says now is the time today is the day of salvation. You are contrary.Your interpretation is not the equal of Scripture, Paul's is.
1Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.
2And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;
3And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.
4Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the LORD, and my work with my God.
5And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength.
6And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
7Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.
8Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;
Corinthians 6:2
(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)
Take care
Hitch
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quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
Your position appears to be that Revelation, such as the Beast and the False Prophet, and the Mark of the Beast is all fulfilled, historical in context.
Yet in 2 Thess.2 we read of the Wicked who will be revealed and the Lord will destroy with the brightness of His coming.
In Zech. 12 we read that the Nation Israel shall mourn as the look upon He whom they have pierced.
In Zech. 14 all nations are to be gathered against Jerusalem and His feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives, and it shall split and He shall go forth in battle, and Living Waters shall go forth from Jerusalem.
The Lord is coming and every eye shall see and every tongue confess that He is Lord.
At His coming the Beast and the false Prophet shall be cast into the Lake of Fire.
In Rev. 18 the city Babylon is utterly destroyed and cast down with the fires of God's wrath and judgement, and all the nations of the earth mourn her destruction.
But out of Jerusalem comes rivers of Living water as the Lord goes forth and fights for her against all of the nations arrayed against her.
Messiah returns and Nation Israel will be redeemed as He destroys the armies of the Beast, Rev. 19.
To coin a phrase, your position appears to be that when the nation 'looks on Him whom they have peirced ' in fulfillment of Zs prophecy all or most of these things will come to pass. Is that correct?
Take care
Hitch
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Just some scriptures to think about
REV.14 [9] And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, IF ANY MAN WORSHIP THE BEAST and his image, and receive his MARK IN HIS FOREHEAD, OR IN HIS HAND,[10] The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
above scripture sign – hand - forehead (between the eyes) - cup of indignation – the bad guys
below scriptures sign – hand - between your eyes (forehead) - the LORD’S LAW – the good guys
EXOD.13 [9] And it shall be for a SIGN unto thee UPON THINE HAND, and for A MEMORIAL BETWEEN your EYES, that the LORD's law may be in your mouth: for with a strong hand hath the LORD brought you out of Egypt.
DEUT.6 [2] That you might fear the LORD your God, to keep all his statutes and HIS COMMANDMENTS, which I command you, you, and your son, and your son's son, all the days of your life; and that your days may be prolonged.[8] And you shall bind them for A SIGN UPON your HAND, and they shall be AS FRONTLETS BETWEEN your EYES.[9] And you shall write them upon the posts of your house, and on your gates.
It’s your decision. Who will you honor in your death? If you have the Beast’s Mark, you will suffer and die from the plagues of God. If you have God’s Mark, the Beast will kill you. Who will you honor in your death?
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JAMES 5 [7] Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, UNTIL HE RECEIVE THE EARLY AND LATTER RAIN.[8] Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.
Be patient? The coming of the Lord? Until you receive the early and latter rain? What’s that mean and what must you do to receive these rains? Anything to do with which “mark” you accept?
DEUT.11 [13] And it shall come to pass, IF YE SHALL HEARKEN DILIGENTLY UNTO MY COMMANDMENTS which I command you this day, to love the LORD your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul,[14] That I will give you the rain of your land in his due season, THE FIRST RAIN AND THE LATTER RAIN, that thou mayest gather in thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil. [18] Therefore shall ye lay up these my words in your heart and in your soul, and bind them for A SIGN UPON YOUR HAND, THAT THEY MAY BE AS FRONTLETS BETWEEN YOUR EYES.[19] And ye shall teach them your children, speaking of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.[20] And thou shalt write them upon the door posts of thine house, and upon thy gates:[21] That your days may be multiplied, and the days of your children, in the land which the LORD swore unto your fathers to give them, as the days of heaven upon the earth.[22] For if you shall diligently keep all these commandments which I command you, to do them, to love the LORD your God, to walk in all his ways, and to cleave unto him;
Above scripture says in order to receive the early and latter rain, you must diligently keep the 10 commandments. Deut.11 goes on to say they will be for a sign on your hand and forehead (frontlets between your eyes). Verse 21 is speaking of the 1000 yr period of rest (the Kingdom of God) which the Lord swore to the fathers to give them. Hmmm…Jesus is the same today, yesterday and forever.
REV.22 [4] And they shall see his face; and HIS NAME SHALL BE IN THEIR FOREHEADS.[12] And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.[13] I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.[14] BLESSED ARE THEY THAT DO HIS COMMANDMENTS, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through gates of the city.
Says the same thing in last chapter of Revelations. HIS name in their foreheads. They who keep the Ten Commandments of God will enter the gates of the land promised to the fathers for the 1000 yr. period of rest.
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Caretaker
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Your position appears to be that Revelation, such as the Beast and the False Prophet, and the Mark of the Beast is all fulfilled, historical in context.
Yet in 2 Thess.2 we read of the Wicked who will be revealed and the Lord will destroy with the brightness of His coming.
In Zech. 12 we read that the Nation Israel shall mourn as the look upon He whom they have pierced.
In Zech. 14 all nations are to be gathered against Jerusalem and His feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives, and it shall split and He shall go forth in battle, and Living Waters shall go forth from Jerusalem.
The Lord is coming and every eye shall see and every tongue confess that He is Lord.
At His coming the Beast and the false Prophet shall be cast into the Lake of Fire.
In Rev. 18 the city Babylon is utterly destroyed and cast down with the fires of God's wrath and judgement, and all the nations of the earth mourn her destruction.
But out of Jerusalem comes rivers of Living water as the Lord goes forth and fights for her against all of the nations arrayed against her.
Messiah returns and Nation Israel will be redeemed as He destroys the armies of the Beast, Rev. 19.
--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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The first ‘mark’ I know of is from Gen. 3; 19, and it's interesting just where its found,,, on the forehead. The 'Mark of the Beast' (MOB) though, is a counterfeit of the marks found in Duet, 6; 8 and Ex. 28;36. The first is a simple idea of a sort of bracelet with the Commandments written in the design and worn on the right wrist. There is also mention of the 'frontal'the little box you may have seen modern Jews wearing
, on their foreheads in photos from the 'Wailing Wall'.
In Exodus we see the High Priest with golden
letters,again across the forehead, HOLY TO THE
LORD.The obvious question then is: What is of greater import, the mark (or seal) or the reason and hear
behind it ?.
Reading the Sermon on the Mount should leave us
with little left to question. The real value of the seal is contained in the thoughts and intents of heart of the individual. Remember Jesus told the viperous brood
"You search the scriptures daily." To no avail. But this seal would be an outward show of the devotion of a devout believer. A proclamation of God's greatness and protective will. It is the lawyer class (Pharisees) that ineveitibly elevates the seal over the intent. Well that
class was the religious elite in Jesus day and we are all well aware of their various problems. They ,no doubt were sure to wear the frontal and make every outward show.
The first century audience of the Revelation was well aquainted with the seal of God, as described above, and thus the allusion to a sorry
counterfeit of the same by the enemy wouldn’t seem strange at all. And as Christ is the Stumbling Block to unbelievers so becomes the frontal of scripture to apostate Jews bent on persecuting our Lord through His church. The very thing which sets apart the believer,the Word, becomes a witness against the Scribe.
This treatment of our Lord is prophetic in that the same argument was used against the church by the Jews. The False Prophet has denied the true faith and ran after foreign gods.
Namely Caesar. In filthy apostasy they continued the practice of choosing the god of State,Ceaser, over the God of Abe. Pursuing and killing church leaders and organizing economic sanctions against all who would defiantly call on Jesus(acts 20;19,,,4;1-3,,,5;17,18 acts is full of such references)
So the Mark (the frontal) that should have set them apart to God, and helped incur the greatest blessings, becomes the mark that seals their doom, even as Christ the Deliverer becomes Christ
the Wrathful Judge. They had a 'day' in which to choose whom they would serve, they chose poorly and paid dearly.
So I reckon the MOB found in theApocalypse was the once glorious Word of God, so abused as to become the device for the regicide and thus becoming a witness as the blood of Abel. But
whether the frontal was actually the mark or not makes no difference.
Whether a literal mark existed or not makes no difference. The point is; at that particular time in history the last generation of Old Covenant Jews murdered the Great King's Son, and His servants as well. And that not being evil enough they did their best to see that all in Israel had to make the same choice...
And some took the Mark, we will not see them. Some were faithful to the end and we are blessed by their bravery and faith today as they are the foundation of the church.
Take care
Hitch
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