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Topic: Escape From Churchianity
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KnowHim
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pleasemaranatha:
These words would have astounded Jesus’ hearers. If anyone was righteous, it was the scribes and Pharisees. Their hope of life from the Law was therefore shattered. That is what we must do: shatter the self-righteous beliefs of those poor souls who try to EARN salvation. - Ray Comfort
Amen
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Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
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Pleasemaranatha
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These words would have astounded Jesus’ hearers. If anyone was righteous, it was the scribes and Pharisees. Their hope of life from the Law was therefore shattered. That is what we must do: shatter the self-righteous beliefs of those poor souls who try to EARN salvation. - Ray Comfort
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My soul waiteth for the Lord more than they that watch for the morning. Psalms 130 verse 6
Joyce
Posts: 308 | From: Missouri | Registered: Oct 2005
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Pleasemaranatha
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Yes Linda I agree it is unscriptual and VERY WRONG for us to follow any person or people. We should only follow The Lord Jesus Christ. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
We should always be on guard for deception so we don't fall away from the truth.
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My soul waiteth for the Lord more than they that watch for the morning. Psalms 130 verse 6
Joyce
Posts: 308 | From: Missouri | Registered: Oct 2005
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helpforhomeschoolers
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quote:
These groups teach the central doctrines of the Christian
faith and then add the extra authority of leadership or someone's particular writings. They centre around the interpretations of the leadership and submissive and unquestioning acceptance of these is essential to be a member
of good standing.
Is that not unscriptural? When the authority of the church is not Christ, then the church is unscriptural. Jesus taught that if one desires to lead, according to God's plan leading is done by serving those led, not the other way around.
Christ served unto death, He gave of himself, that is how he led. He washed the disciples feet!
The Pastor should never be seen as God in the local congregation!!!
I know these groups are real, but we should not call them Orthodox or Bible based.. they are not and if a congregation's leadership has aberrant behavior, that leadership cannot hold sound orthodox Biblical doctrine.
If a clergy is lording over the congregation, his doctrine is out of order! If a pastor claims that he is above reproach, his doctrine is not Biblical. If a local "church" congreation requires unquestioning acceptance of their dogma they are not doctrinally sound or Biblical.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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Pleasemaranatha
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I found this interesting. I did not write this.
THE 'ORTHODOX BIBLE-BASED CULT'
A group is called a cult because of their behaviour - not
their doctrines. Doctrine is an issue in the area of
Apologetics and Heresy. Most religious cults do teach what the
Christian church would declare to be heresy but some do not.
Some cults teach the basics of the Christian faith but have
behavioural patterns that are abusive, ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) controlling and cultic.
This occurs in both Non-Charismatic and Charismatic churches.
These groups teach the central doctrines of the Christian
faith and then add the extra authority of leadership or
someone's particular writings. They centre around the
interpretations of the leadership and submissive and
unquestioning acceptance of these is essential to be a member
of good standing. This acceptance includes what we consider issues (such as
the Person and Work of Christ.) The key is that they stress undue influence on their members.
An excellent book on this subject is "Churches that Abuse" by
Dr Ronald Enroth.
Using these guidelines of definition, Bible-based,
Psychological, Educational and Commercial aberrations can
easily be identified.
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My soul waiteth for the Lord more than they that watch for the morning. Psalms 130 verse 6
Joyce
Posts: 308 | From: Missouri | Registered: Oct 2005
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helpforhomeschoolers
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I enjoy them both, thanks to you who introduced me to Nee, BA; but, I think Nee's style respresents or flows out of the simplicity of his heart and faith toward God and that is a very beautiful thing! He doesn't really preach, he.. he pours himself out to his reader. It is a totally different kind of enjoyment that I get when reading his writings.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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BORN AGAIN
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As for Chip Brogden, I've never read him other than parts of these articles. I agree with parts of what he says. But his style of writing is not my favorite. I prefer the simplicity of a Watchman Nee. But to each his own style of Christian writer or Christian music.
BORN AGAIN
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BORN AGAIN
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sister Carmela wrote quote:
I keep seeing that we are not to listen to man, then I see all of these very long articles posted that were written by MAN!
Well...yeah (think valley girl).
God Himself is perfect and makes no mistakes but God is being kind enough to let saved sinners like us help Him in His Work and Purpose for the earth, regarding the coming kingdom of Jesus.
So if a person is bornagain by believing in Jesus, that person has access to the counsel of the Holy Spirit, and so it is no longer a work of MAN! alone but also of the Holy Spirit.
Whatever Christian men and women and children manage to screw up while we do this co-labor with the LORD God of Israel, God will forgive him or her, because God will set it all straight in the end:
1 Corinthians 3:9
For we are laborers together with God: you are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
1 Corinthians 3:15
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
so sister Carmela, you wrote quote:
... I see all of these very long articles posted that were written by MAN!
Well...yeah (think valley girl). MAN! and GOD!
God bless, BORN AGAIN in the USA
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Yes, Drew: God Bless David. I picked out David and Walt because I felt I could, but there are many others here who also give themselves as living sacrifice to the body in love every day and are often mis-judged. God knows every one. God Bless you all; you know who you are, though Godly piety and humility would keep you from believing that I speak of you. God Knows!
I love ya CareTaker... a very fitting moniker both in the natural and in the Spiritual! ![[hug]](graemlins/hug.gif)
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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Caretaker
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God bless you David!!!
Your posts are appreciated, and the preaching of God's Word is living Water for the soul. Your provision of this forum for the last 4 years, to replace the old 711, has been a great blessing.
I could certainly appreciate the use of irony in your reference to Paul's "watered-down Gospel". There are those who appear to have blinders on.
Preach on David, Preach on. It is with sheer pleasure that I see your heart for Christ and words of truth being posted.
God bless you Linda!!!
Your message in defense of David and Walt is powerful to say the least. How often we overlook the sacrifices true men of God make on a daily basis, for the sake of one soul. Through the grace of God they stay the course and persevere in the face of adversity.
Your wisdom, insight, eloquence, has illuminated this board for the last 4 years, and it continues to pierce through the blinded railings against the truth.
Preach on Sis, preach on.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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helpforhomeschoolers
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I do not usually find myself promoting things Catholic, but I believe that St Fancis had something here and I love this prayer:
Father make me an instrument of your peace
Where there is hatred,
Let me sow love;
Where there is injury, pardon;
Where there is error, truth;
Where there is doubt, faith;
Where there is despair, hope;
Where there is darkness, light;
And where there is sadness, Joy.
Father God, grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled As to console;
To be understood,as to understand;
To be loved, as to love.
For it is in giving that we receive,
It is in pardoning that we are pardoned,
And it is in dying that we are born to eternal life.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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Carmela
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I see this quote but all I did was disagree and I was spoken to harshly.
"Tolerance is a virtue of a man without convictions" - G.K. Chesterton
quote:
That is one problem with Churches today, they tolerate everthing in the name of love. You don't love people by letting them go to HELL. If they don't know Jesus Christ on Judgement and have had Him pay their sin dept, then they would have been loved right into hell because people are afraid to say anything that might hurt someone's feeling. I would rather make some one mad any day then let them blindly step into hell with out trying to warn them.
My words are being twisted again. I already said sin shouldn't be tolerated. Jesus was speaking to those whose hearts were so hard that they refused to see Him as the Messiah. They refused to accept Him. They made their choice. With the common people, Jesus changed them. He lovingly guided them to Christianity. Making people mad leads them to hell. Most don't want to follow a Jesus that is looks so harsh through the hearts of His followers.
David just because I disagree with you, doesn't mean I don't love you. If we met in person, I would still not pass judgement and I would get to know you. I bet you are a wonderful man. However, I don't agree with you on this forum at times. I certainly don't see how you can see Paul tought a watered down doctrine. God used Paul mightily. If Paul speaks a watered down doctrine, does that mean he is in hell where it seems you are saying I'm heading? You didn't say that, it's just a feeling I got. I don't always agree with Caretaker and others either, but I would love to meet them. Not to change them, but I feel that you and he and others have a heart that genuinely seeks to know God. I just don't agree with how it's delivered and you don't agree with how I deliver it. I don't get angry with you David. I just disagree which didn't go over well so I will be more careful.
I jsut read where you said you didn't say Paul watered the gospel down. It came across that way to me also.
I don't see how talking about preaching out of love has anything to do with watering down the gospel which I think is wrong. I don't see how it keeps getting tied in to the church that does this since I don't.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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I think sometimes we have this picture of what is loving that is not real. Love is brutally honest when it needs be.
I can tell you that David is one of the most loving men I know. He is rock solid in his faith... uncompromising and I thank God for that witness. One of the times that I have received from him the greatest amount of Christian brotherly love a time when was when he was point blank in my face telling me that I was wrong in the way I was viewing something and in no uncertain terms and without hestiation.
I wanted a hug that Day and david was not giving out hugs... just one little phrase that I needed to hear: " It is not about YOU Linda... It is about HIM." Now I have preached those words here for a long time; but sometimes we need someone to get in our face and preach to us, and God sent me David!
It did not feel very good; but I have no doubt it was love... Jesus' love being ministered to me through David.
It is easy to let our brain shout "no love" " I dont see the love" because someone is straight forward, for as much kind things you have said about me here Carmela, there are I am sure some here who would disagree with you! I know this because they have told me so.
I have said and I will say again, that sometimes love looks like Jesus shouting Thou Hypocrite at the pharisee and sometimes, it looks like HIM throwing over tables in the temple and Sometimes it looks God sending so much quail to the children in the wilderness that they ate so much it killed them; sometimes it looks like Paul throwing Hymenaeus out of the church and over to Satan that he learn not to blaspheme, and sometimes it looks Moses when no one else was around crying out to the Lord, take my life I cant do this these are a rebellious people;
Sometimes the greatest love is given by those who are the toughest in our lives; the most unbending, uncompromising, the ones that are willing to take upon themselves all the hard feelings and junk that the one loved is going to feel when he is chastened and they dont care because they love that much and know that God will lift them up and comfort them when all that junk comes flying at them because they spoke the truth someone did not want to hear.
I believe that I know who you speak of when h talk about one that just preaches the Gospel and you dont feel the love... I should be so blessed to have in my heart the love that man demonstrates in this body every day of his life! Until we have walked in ones shoes or at least know the sacrifices that are made in silence and without need to tell another soul, just made because of love, we should not judge the level or presence of love based only on what is at best limited knowledge or exposure.
Do we know the love one gives to keep this board and many many many other internet evangelizing sites going all the time? Do we know the sacrifice? the time away from family, the money out of personal pockets and budgets? Do we know the hours of prayer and seeking God's face and guidance that go into those things? How much more is done that we never see? Are we there when he is crying out to God in the middle of the night for the plight of the lost in church?
God gives to this body all kinds - some are sweet and gentle and kind; some are hard and tough and matter of fact; some may right with boldness and even seen cold, but do you know where they are or what they are doing that is compassionate, kind and gentle in the world?
I think of my brother Walt, I am sure he wont mind my using him as an example. He is often seen here as cold hard tough preachy. He says hard things our flesh does not like to hear, but are you there when has left fun and family at home at gotten up at 3am to drive 5 hours to get to his little church in a trailer where he is now holding in his arms a grown man 6'4" alone on the road for 2 weeks without family in the cab of a truck and that man is now sobbing in brokenhaearteness and tears as he deals with his own ugly sins of being addicted to porn? What do we know of his love? He does not boast of what he does... it is not about him... it is about Jesus!!
If you have not noticed those who are so quick to talk about Judge not lest you be judged and moats and beams, so quick to accuse the one who speaks against things that can be seen, against things that clearly are not in scripture, against ear scratching preachers on things that God has given us clear word as a standard for judging and commanded us to judge.... can you see what cannot be judged? Can you see the injustice of your judgements against these brothers that you are so quick to say I cant see the love?
I bear witness of them; I can see the love and you have judged unjustly.
God is LOVE indeed; and the fruit of HIS spirit in men does not always look like we want love to look.
And just so no one misunderstands... this is not directed to Carmela, but to any who is reading and any who would judge love in the heart of man based on limited information.
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Thunderz7
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I have been in agreement with most (not all) I have read from Chip Brogden.
This article is exactly what I see wrong with the mainline denominational churches;
you know the ones that don't get named on the Exposing False Doctrine board;
the ones that are just as, or more, wrong than the ones always called "heretic";
at least Brogden is coming against their man made doctrines.
T7
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by David:
quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
quote:
Originally posted by David:
I wonder why Paul got beat so many times by preaching a watered down gospel.
Wow- Paul was personally selected by Jesus himself to spread The Good News - God makes no mistakes. Can you please show me a scripture to back this up?
From David - That is just the point. Paul did not preach a watered down gospel.
Sorry, I guess I misunderstood
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KnowHim
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Contend For The Faith...The Bible teaching is plain. God's people and God's churches are forbidden to make common cause with modernism. Heresy is to be exposed. The ecumenical movement is controlled by heretics. Ecumenical evangelism ignores the Scriptural teaching on sound doctrine, in order "to reach lost souls." What a farce! We should be interested in lost souls, but compromise is not God's way. Jude was interested in "the common salvation", but he also contended for "the faith."
Jude 3, 4, "Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ."
It is all about Jesus, not about us. Preach the cross of Jesus Christ. Not bow to the gods of entertainment.
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Deadly Trends of Popular Christianity
by John MacArthur
Entering a new decade started me thinking about all that has happened in the church over the past twenty years. The 1970s were an exciting time. We saw an unprecedented rise in conservative evangelicalism, the explosion of Christian broadcasting and publishing, a number of excellent new Bible translations and study aids, the proliferation of small-group Bible studies, and tremendous growth in Bible-believing congregations.
In the midst of it all, one sensed a sincere desire to exalt the Lord, a love for God's Word, a hunger to understand it, and--within the church, at least--a renewed interest in holiness, combatting the steady moral decay that had gained such a foothold in the '60s.
Those phenomena could have been harbingers of genuine spiritual revival.
But the '80s were a decade of decline. Not numerical decline in most of our churches (though I'm concerned that this may happen yet), but a spiritual decline. The church has actually turned away from true revival and pursued instead the popularization of Christianity.
The pop church is everywhere. It is perhaps most evident on religious television, where the diet of celebrity variety shows and other forms of entertainment has decreased the taste for worship. It is quickly gaining a foothold in Christian radio, where phone-in talk shows and live psychotherapy are replacing Bible teaching as the staple. It has ravaged local churches, turning them into little more than social clubs and community centers where the focus is on the individual's felt needs, not on the church's function as the Body of Christ in the world.
The trends of pop Christianity pose dangers more subtle than the liberalism that threatened the church in the first half of the century. Instead of attacking orthodoxy head on, the pop church gives lip service to the truth while quietly undermining the foundations of doctrine. Instead of exalting God it denigrates the things that are precious to Him.
The pop church is not a single movement or visible organization. Tendencies toward popular religion can be found even in some of the finest churches and Christian organizations in evangelicalism.
Tragically, the church appears to be actually moving the opposite direction from true revival. As we enter the '90s, the trends become more and more evident.
First, there is in vogue today a tendency to make the basis of faith something other than God's Word. Experience, emotion, fashion, and popular opinion are often in reality more authoritative than the Bible in determining what many Christians believe.
The charismatic movement, of course, has led the way in this failure by claiming private, individual revelation is a valid and normal way God manifests Himself. Why should we carefully study the Bible when we can get personal messages and fresh prophecy from some charismatic experience?
But non-charismatics have not been exempt from teachings that undermine biblical authority. Secular psychology, for instance, has virtually superseded God's Word at the core of curriculum in some of our conservative seminaries. Christian counseling reflects this drift, frequently offering no more than experimental and unscriptural self-help therapy instead of solid answers from the Bible.
Christian missionary work is often riddled with pragmatism and compromise, because too many in missions have evidently concluded that what gets results is more important than what God says.
That's true among local churches as well. It has become quite fashionable to forego the proclamation and teaching of God's Word in worship services. Instead, churches serve up a smorgasbord of drama, music, and other forms of entertainment.
All of this dethrones Scripture from its rightful place as the basis for our faith.
Second, pop Christianity has a tendency to move the focus of faith away from God's Son. You've seen that repeatedly if you watch much religious television. Center stage belongs to the celebrity evangelist, the fund-raising campaign, or the miracles and healings--anything but the Lord Jesus.
Furthermore, the faith those programs ordinarily exemplify is surrealistic. The people we see are nearly always bubbly, giggly, and giddy. Instead of biblical faith, which rejoices in the midst of trials, what we usually see is a thin, and fragile emotionalism that talks of deliverance but seems merely to be a form of escapism.
The health-wealth-and-prosperity gospel advocated by so many televangelists is the ultimate example of this kind of fantasy-faith. Appealing unabashedly to the flesh, this false gospel corrupts all the promises of Scripture and encourages greed. It makes material blessing, not Jesus Christ, the object of the Christian's desires.
Easy-believism handles the message differently, but the effect is the same. Here is the perfect message for pop Christianity. It is the promise of forgiveness minus the gospel's hard demands. It has done much to popularize "believing" but little to provoke sincere faith.
Christ is no longer the focus of the message. We may hear His name mentioned from time to time, but the real focus seems is inward, not upward. People are urged to look within; to try to understand themselves; to come to grips with their problems, their hurts, their disappointments; to have their needs met, their desires granted, their wants fulfilled. Nearly all the popular versions of the message encourage and legitimize a self-centered perspective.
Such an emphasis cannot help but shift the focus away from Christ.
Third, today's pop Christianity is infected with a tendency to view the result of faith as something less than God's standard of holy living. I thought of this recently as one of the fallen televangelists was again in the news. Several of his loyalists were demonstrating against his conviction and imprisonment by carrying signs with the word "FORGIVEN!" in large red letters.
We must be forgiving, but forgiveness is not the end and the aim of the Christian faith; holiness unto the Lord is (2 Cor. 7:1; Eph. 1:4; 5:25-27).
By downplaying the importance of holy living--both by precept and by example--the pop church has undermined the biblical doctrine of conversion. A celebrity show-business personality professes faith in Christ but continues in an ungodly lifestyle. No one thinks anything of it--or worse, the pop church continues to herald that person as an example of a true believer.
That eats at the heart of the Christian faith. Think about it: What could Satan do to try to destroy the church that would be more effective than undermining God's Word, shifting the focus off Christ, and minimizing holy living? All those things are happening slowly, steadily within the church right now. Tragically, most Christians seem oblivious to the problems, satisfied with a Christianity that is fashionable and highly visible.
The true church must not ignore these threats. If we fight to keep the church pure, we can conquer external attacks easily. But if we let error into the church, we will not be able to regain the purity without waging civil war.
I fear that may be happening even now. The church of the past decade has become so broad and inclusive that many otherwise sound Christians avoid speaking the truth for fear of being divisive. Recently, for example, a major Christian radio network wrote to ask me not to teach again on a certain passage of Scripture. "We agree with what you say," the network executive told me, "but many of our constituents do not, and we're committed to peace."
We cannot have peace if it means we must avoid whole passages of Scripture! The unity Jesus prayed for is a unity based on common commitment to truth. It is a oneness made possible because we are sanctified in the truth (John 17:19-21), not a false unity borne of compromise.
May the church of the '90s reverse these trends and pray instead for a fresh infusion of the Holy Spirit's power.
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But I am sorry to say that the trends have only gotten worse............ David
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KnowHim
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quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
quote:
Originally posted by David:
I wonder why Paul got beat so many times by preaching a watered down gospel.
Wow- Paul was personally selected by Jesus himself to spread The Good News - God makes no mistakes. Can you please show me a scripture to back this up?
That is just the point. Paul did not preach a watered down gospel.
.
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by David:
I wonder why Paul got beat so many times by preaching a watered down gospel.
Wow- Paul was personally selected by Jesus himself to spread The Good News - God makes no mistakes. Can you please show me a scripture to back this up?
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KnowHim
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Carmela you only sound loving to those that agree with you. I sure don't seem to feel the love casted my way.
I wonder why Paul got beat so many times by preaching a watered down gospel. You don't think it could have hurt some feeling do you.
Then there arose certain of the synagogue, which is called the synagogue of the Libertines, and Cyrenians, and Alexandrians, and of them of Cilicia and of Asia, disputing with Stephen. And they were not able to resist the wisdom and the spirit by which he spake. Then they suborned men, which said, We have heard him speak blasphemous words against Moses, and against God. - Acts 6:9-11
Wow I think he was telling them it was about Jesus.
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Chaplain Bob
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quote:
May God forgive him.
Forgive him for what Joyce? Telling the truth? He is right. Jesus did not found a religious organization ("church"). He called out followers. Man founded the religious organizations and the cause of Christ has been going downhill ever since.
Thanks David for posting that.
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In His Service,
Bob Allen
Posts: 209 | From: Checotah, Oklahoma | Registered: Aug 2005
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KnowHim
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quote:
Repent- whether you agree or not-repent/spend more time on your faces than your keyboards and love one another.
"Tolerance is a virtue of a man without convictions" - G.K. Chesterton
Jesus did indeed condemn some people for their sin. In Matthew 23 He called the religious leaders "hypocrites" seven times. He told them that they were "blind fools," children of hell, full of hypocrisy and sin. He climaxed His sermon by saying, "You serpents, you generation of vipers, how shall you escape the damnation of hell?" (v. 33). He then warned that He would say to the wicked, "Depart from Me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41).
That is one problem with Churches today, they tolerate everthing in the name of love. You don't love people by letting them go to HELL. If they don't know Jesus Christ on Judgement and have had Him pay their sin dept, then they would have been loved right into hell because people are afraid to say anything that might hurt someone's feeling. I would rather make some one mad any day then let them blindly step into hell with out trying to warn them.
The modern message of the gospel is "God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life." However, our idea of "wonderful" and the world’s may be a little different. Take a sinner through the pages of the Book of Acts and show him the terrifying scene of boulders breaking the bones of Stephen. Then smile and whisper, "Wonderful. . . " Listen together to the sound of a cat-o’-nine-tails as it rips the flesh off the back of the apostle Paul. Follow together the word "suffering" through the Epistles, and see if you can get the world to whisper, "Wonderful!" After such a ride down Honesty Road, they may think the pleasures of sin are a little more attractive than the call to "suffer affliction with the people of God."
John MacArthur said, "We need to adjust our presentation of the gospel. We cannot dismiss the fact that God hates sin and punishes sinners with eternal torment. How can we begin a gospel presentation by telling people on their way to hell that God has a wonderful plan for their lives?" Who in the world is going to listen if we are so blatantly honest about the Christian life? Perhaps not as many as are attracted by the talk of a wonderful plan. However, the answer to our dilemma is to make the issue one of righteousness, rather than happiness. This is what Jesus did. He used the Ten Commandments to show sinners the righteous standard of God (Luke 10:25,26; 18:18– 0). Once the world sees the perfect standard by which they will be judged, they will begin to fear God, and through the fear of the Lord, men depart from sin (Proverbs 16:6). They will begin to hunger and thirst after the righteousness that is in Jesus Christ alone. If you study the New Testament you will see that God’s love is almost always given in direct correlation to the cross: herein is love, for God so loved, God commended His love, etc. (See John 3:16; Romans 5:5,6,8; Galatians 2:20; Ephesians 2:4,5; 5:2,25; 1 John 3:16; 4:10; and Revelation 1:5, among others.) The cross is the focal point of God’s love for the world. How can we point to the cross without making reference to sin? How can we refer to sin without the Law (Romans 7:7)? The biblical way to express God’s love to a sinner is to show him how great his sin is (using the Law—see Romans 7:13; Galatians 3:24), and then give him the incredible grace of God in Christ. This was the key to reaching so many on the Day of Pentecost. They were "devout" Jews who knew the Law and its holy demands, and therefore readily accepted the mercy of God in Christ to escape its fearful wrath. When you use the Law to show the world their true state, get ready for sinners to thank you. For the first time in their lives, they will see the Christian message as an expression of love and concern for their eternal welfare, rather than of merely proselytizing for a better lifestyle while on this earth.
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Carmela
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Great posts Betty and Joyce. I agree with you both. You both summed up what I was going to end my post with when I returned home.
Oh, I was saying it's the person behind the message. I keep seeing that we are not to listen to man, then I see all of these very long articles posted that were written by MAN! Jesus taught to speak the truth in love. The bible says:
Eph 4:15-16
15 But speaking the truth in love , may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part , maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love .
1Thes 3:12-13
12 And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you:
13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
(KJV)
There are others but that shows what I'm trying to say.
I Jn 4:18-21
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
19 We love him, because he first loved us.
20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.
(KJV)
Sometimes this is how people feel when they leave this site. People have told me this, I'm talking personally;
Luke 12:45
45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens , and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
(KJV)
What I see is two different focuses. The focus on speaking the truth and the focus on speaking the truth in love. Yet often if someone speaks the truth in love, they are told they preach a watered down gospel. Yet when I ask people to show me where I preached a false doctrine or watered down doctrine, I get no reply. If I speak the truth, I'm told I'm attacking someone. Yet I'm not trying to. The same way as others feel when they are attacked.
The Gospel of Jesus is truth, love, kindness, respect....It should all be intertwined together.
So where HFHS can be point blank at times (which is fine), she also shows that she listens. That is what draws people to Christ. When I say this I guess I come across as if I'm the only one that knows how to witness to people. I'm not saying that at all because even I fall short sometimes but from experience I know that I would take the time to listen about Jesus by HFHS because I feel listened to. If she and I disagree with both leave with the understanding that there isn't any hard feelings toward each other. At least that has been my experience with her. If she preached I am more likely to listen and to be drawn toward God if I were a non-believer. I don't think we have disagreed on biblical truths yet. If I went to her church and heard heresy, I wouldn't return. She would do the same if she came to my church.
I use her as an example, not to build her up to others, but because that has been my experience with her. We have disagreed, but I know I can talk to her again the next day or an hour later and that disagreement won't be still standing there between us.
Yet with some churches that may be speaking the truth, the love isn't shown to others. Church isn't a building, I agree. Church isn't a religion, I agree. It's a relationship with our Heavenly Father. Church isn't about growth, I agree again. But it is about salvation. I don't see how people are being saved if the church isn't growing. Jesus sent out the disciples to minister and churches were built and many were drawn to the Lord. Churches grew. If there isn't growth in the church it usually means there aren't new Christians that are being taught or receiving the Word of God. It isn't only our words that minister to others, it's our actions and the way we treat each other. I realize people disagree with me but because of HFHS's actions, I would be more likely to listen to the Jesus she preaches then of a Jesus that others preach while saying I don't care if you come or go.... That is what we mean when we say preaching in love. for some reason it keeps getting taken the wrong way though.
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becauseHElives
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I have to say Amen to Chip’s message.
Thank you David for posting it.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Sozobetty
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I have 'evesdropped' for some time now on the verbal battles of this website.
How sad the Fathers heart must be to see the judgeing and critical nature of most of the catagories here. Isn't there enough of this in the world already? Do we have to have it in the Church too? Is this Love?
Once I heard it said that the Army of God is the only organization to bury their living!
Our home is an extended family environment.
With different ages, occupations, schedules and personalities we have one cord that we hang on to, that brings us back to where we should be.
We love Jesus and eachother, nothing is more precious than that. Repent- whether you agree or not-repent/spend more time on your faces than your keyboards and love one another.
In Jesus,
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Trust in the Lord with all your heart, And do not lean to your own understanding . .Prov.3:5 Betty
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Pleasemaranatha
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David says:
Pleasemaranatha you are mad at Chip and my self because we are not out to tickle peoples ears and teach only about what will make you feel better. When people preach that it should all be about Jesus then it makes people mad because they don't get the glory nor does it make it easy for them to make it all about self improvement.
Me
Nope, I am not mad at all. I am hurt. I am sorry that I hurt you David, Linda, Drew, whomever because....but I had to say what I said about chip. David, remember the first time I ever posted it was on chips article. You jumped on me like I was a bug. I lived. No fruits were shown to a one day member. But, God lives in me and made me hang out here. I only obey God.
David, no preacher ever needed to tickle my ears. I"ve got the real thing. I know the real Lord Jesus Christ who by His Spirit gave me instructions to write this. I hate confrontation! I don't go to church much. I worship here in my home mostly. I don't belong to any religion. The Holy Spirit is my teacher.
I understand what is the over view of his words(chips). It is hard to even capitalize his letters on his name. But I stand on what God has told me about him. I am sorry it hurts. He is getting wealthy from doing the same thing the others say that the tbn ministers have done.
The same is true, people are fed and ears tickled by chip. He says things to build up and make them feel prideful or specail. An elete group that he (chip) is manipulating. He is making a fine living off of the ones that were hurt like him from other religions or churches.
Love and pray your eyes will open.
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My soul waiteth for the Lord more than they that watch for the morning. Psalms 130 verse 6
Joyce
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Carmela
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I have never seen Chip preach so I don't know much about him. To read a sermon or article that he wrote, leaves us at a disadvantage in a way because we can't see the attitude behind the sermon. What I mean is this. HFHS also believes as others at this board does. Now, if I ever were blessed enough to meet her, I would go to church with her. Why? I see love. I see a woman that is honest yet caring. I see a woman that is willing to take the time to listen to a person and then lovingly guide them to Jesus. However, if I saw (I'm not allowed to mention a name here) I would probably not be willing to go to church with him. Why? I see someone that is hard, uncaring (although I don't think this person is totally uncaring) but in many ways the hardness comes across this way. I see someone that just preaches the gospel and says the heck with you....
Chip is preaching a message about relationship. We must have a relationship with the Lord in order to really know and understand His ways. His ways are higher than our ways. We must prayerfully seek Him daily, seek His wisdom and guidance and all that He has for us. This I totally agree with.
However, David was a sinner. He didn't only sin. He then tried to hide the sin and later had a man killed to cover the sin. However, it's the very sin that caused David to fall into a great repentence for the Lord.
He was forgiven.
I think what PleaseMaranatha is saying is that it's the person behind the great sermon that actually portrays the message.
I'm sorry, my husband just told me we are leaving so I must run. I will return. Sorry to end on this note.
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Posts: 646 | From: Central New York | Registered: Jun 2005
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Caretaker
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Amen David and Linda and Eduardo!!!!!
Jesus said to love the Lord with ALL of your heart, your soul, your mind.(paraphrase)
ALL means total surrender. How many truly open their hearts to Him, and how many participate in churchianity and pay lip-service, without having surrendered to the True Lamb of God?
God knows the hearts of man. He says in that distant day,"depart from me I never knew you".
The field of the heart must be plowed deep, truly opened to the call of God, not just set apart as some stoney wayside.
The old hymn says it:
All to Jesus, I surrender;
All to Him I freely give;
I will ever love and trust Him,
In His presence daily live.
Refrain
I surrender all, I surrender all,
All to Thee, my blessèd Savior,
I surrender all.
All to Jesus I surrender;
Humbly at His feet I bow,
Worldly pleasures all forsaken;
Take me, Jesus, take me now.
Refrain
All to Jesus, I surrender;
Make me, Savior, wholly Thine;
Let me feel the Holy Spirit,
Truly know that Thou art mine.
Refrain
All to Jesus, I surrender;
Lord, I give myself to Thee;
Fill me with Thy love and power;
Let Thy blessing fall on me.
Refrain
All to Jesus I surrender;
Now I feel the sacred flame.
O the joy of full salvation!
Glory, glory, to His Name!
Refrain
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.(Romans 10:10)
One IS NOT saved by his mouth's confession, but rather the mouth testifies readily of the Grace of God in Christ which the heart has received by faith.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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Eduardo Grequi
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After reading this article! I felt compelled to say-
1) The only name applied to a church in the bible is the name, " CHURCH OF CHRIST"
2) Man has always lived with rules and regulations even at the beginning of creation. For an example:
"Honor the Sabath and keep it holy"
3) If there were no rules or regulations, man would be running a muck, even within a simple child Like faith.
"Isn't the word of God, a manual of for instructions, and laws teaching us the only way to Heaven is :
"Jesus the Christ"
4) Doesn't man even within his own family circles at home, place traditions over what the bible actually says:
"That wasn't what you were taught, or in my day..."
5) We humans are a habitual creature. We are part of creation.
6) The religion of the Jews in the days of Jesus, were forcefully bent over in the do's and do not's forgetting God himself. This same habit was passed from Judahism to Christianity.
7) how many of us Christians, when we see a beggar pandering for money, look the other way and pretend the beggar don't really exist.
This sounds so much like the story of the Good Samaritan.
I am guilty of this at times
8)All in all, if a believer of Christ, has come to some point in their walk to be hyper-critical all the time, do we not send the weak away in spiritual hunger.
9) We are commanded- "Do not be equally yoked with an unbeliever."
Is it talking about just the act of believing,or the act of continual believing.
Should we not work out our salvation. Salvation is by God alone and on His terms and not ours.
10) Christianity the word itself, is an oxy-moran phrase anyway. Didn't Jesus, God who was made manifested, still abide in auspices of Judahism.
I assume Christ wanted, his Church to be forgiving forbearing one another in prayer and supplication. To love one another, and not sacrifice integrity for the bandwagon of life.
11) All of my friends are doing it, Mom and Dad- Why cann't I?
Do we give in or Do we give instruction and see where the child takes the boundray? After all Jonah- took the boundray and got disciplined in the process, but in the end- He did what was aspected of him.
12) The church was built on nothingless, then Jesus' blood and righteousness.
13) Husbands do we love our wives and lead with compassion and tenderness, but being wise in the process
14) Wives, do you respect and honor your husband as we should with Jesus, the Christ!
Anyway- I learnt and appreciate the post the way it was laid down here. It would be wise to judge this post in light of scriptures, instead of in the light of our personal traditions and hang-ups.
"THY WORD, HAVE I HID IN MY HEART, THAT I MAY NOT SIN AGAINST THEE" THY WORD FOREVER O LORD IS SETTLED IN HEAVEN. THY WORD IS A LAMP UNTO MY FEET AND A LIGHT UNTO MY PATH. IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD AND WORD WAS WITH GOD, AND WORD WAS GOD. AND THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH, AND DWELT AMONGST MEN. AND I TESTIFY UNTO EVERY PERSON THAT HEARS THE WORDS OF THE PROPHECY OF THIS BOOK, IF ANY MAN MAN SHALL ADD UNTO UNTO THESE THINGS, GOD SHALL ADD UNTO HIM THE PLAGUES THAT ARE WRITTEN IN THIS BOOK: AND IF ANY MAN SHALL TAKE AWAY FROM THE WORDS OF THE BOOK OF THIS PROPHECY, GOD SHALL TAKE AWAY HIS PART OUT OF THE BOOK OF LIFE, AND OUT OF THE HOLY CITY, AND FROM THE THINGS WHICH ARE WRITTEN IN THIS BOOK.
In the beginning -"God created the heavens and the earth!
Posts: 771 | From: Belvidere, IL | Registered: Oct 2004
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KnowHim
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It is the Life.
If you don't live your life for JESUS, what you say and what you do does not matter on judgement day.
God wants your whole life, if you know Jesus then you entire life will show it, not just how well you can act on Sunday morning.
God knows all you do, not just what you do in public.
You can say you are a cow, but that don't make you a cow. In order to be a cow you have to be made up of what the cow is made of. If you want to be a saved born-again blood bought child of God then you entire being must have the make up of knowing Jesus Christ as Lord of ALL.
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Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
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helpforhomeschoolers
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BA: I hear what you are saying here.
quote:
They both are necessary and life must be preceded by a very specific kind of belief first which must be 100% met, else the LIFE won't come.
But is it not the "Life" that is the determining factor as to whether the name is worn by one who is or one who is not? What about the white supremacist klansman that has the belief (so they profess and probably believe themselves to have) and even have the behavior in many respects, but surely do not have the life and are not Christians!!! I grew up in the south and I can tell you that some who were very Christian looking by day were anything but Christian by night and cloak. There are many examples, from the hate filled clansman of south to the puritains of the north, to Roman Church in Europe and Spain that had the belief and from what you could see the behavior, but were not Christian. You might say that they did not really have the behavior else the crime would not have occured, and I would agree, but what of the one that never manifested the behavior but only held it in his heart or mind? Or what of the other side? What of the Mormon who has the behavior far more Christ like than I, and the belief, but the belief in God is not the same God and the Christ not the same Christ as my God or Your God and HIS Christ? Or maybe even closer I think what of the Christian we see emerging today who professes the belief and has the behavior, but who also possesses the practices of Eastern Mysticism? Does satan not come as an angel of light?
I think this is what Brogden is speaking of when he says it is the LIFE that is the thing. Though I do agree that if one has the Life, he will also have the belief and the behavior if he lives long enough to express the behavior... but what about the one with the belief and the life that never lives long enough to express the behavior? Are there not Christians that are born again into the body of Christ in the last seconds of life here??
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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KnowHim
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Pleasemaranatha you are mad at Chip and my self because we are not out to tickle peoples ears and teach only about what will make you feel better. When people preach that it should all be about Jesus then it makes people mad because they don't get the glory nor does it make it easy for them to make it all about self improvement.
It was the Pharisees that got angry when Jesus say it was about him. That is when they started to plan to KILL Him. When it became about Him and not them, they want to get rid of Him.
Until Jesus Christ is truly our Lord, we each have goals of our own which we serve. Our faith is real, but it is not yet permanent. And God is never in a hurry. If we are willing to wait, we will see God pointing out that we have been interested only in His blessings, instead of in God Himself. ~ Oswald Chambers
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Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
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Caretaker
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http://www.mfbc.org/pastorsperspective/march05.php
But some Christians are more in love with methods and ministries than they are in love with the Man.
*
When Pastors and leaders love their programs more than they love Jesus, they are saying Jesus isn’t enough.
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When preachers love their preaching, teachers their teaching, musicians their music, more than they love Jesus, they are saying Jesus isn’t enough.
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When church members love their traditions, congregations their histories, people their positions, more than they love Jesus, they are saying Jesus isn’t enough.
And when the simplest disciples grow tired of “just” being with Jesus, and begin to long for something bigger, something better, something greater, something more powerful, something other than what they have in Jesus already, then they are saying that Jesus is not enough.
If Jesus was all you had, would Jesus be enough for you? Or do you have to have all the “trappings” of Christianity, all the bells and whistles, all the toys and trinkets?
Make no mistake: there is no life in the things that are ABOUT Jesus. There is life only in Jesus Himself.
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Amen to your article by Chip Brogden, David.
The Body of Christ is not found in specific buildings, denominations, congregations, but in the individual Brethren around the World who truly are lifting-up our Lord Jesus Christ in their hearts, and await the Bridegroom with oil in their lamps.
Dietrich Bonhoffer coined the phrase, "Religionless Christianity", a true and basic faith devoid of exterior trappings.
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http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/whyare-charismaticerror.html
Brethren, do not be deceived by end-time wildfire that is posing as a powerful move of the Holy Spirit. We need the power of the Spirit of God in our lives in these evil days, but the manifestation thereof will not be drunkenness or uncontrollable laughter or strange shaking and weird noises or strange gibberish and mutterings or falling to the floor. The Word of God tells us precisely how to have spiritual revival:
”And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret. But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light. Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light. See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise, Redeeming the time, because the days are evil. Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is. And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ; Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God” (Ephesians 5:11-21).
Note that the filling of the Holy Spirit is not some weird experience; it is a way of life for those who are saved through faith in the finished atonement of Jesus Christ and who obey the Word of God and walk in fellowship with Christ. Read the entire fifth and sixth chapters of the book of Ephesians. The command to be filled with the Spirit is in the context of a passage that instructs us in how to please God in the ordinary affairs of our daily lives. The filling of the Spirit is the simple yielding to His control over our everyday lives, the simple obedience to the Bible’s commands through the power of the indwelling Spirit of God.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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KnowHim
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>>> What does chip want? Every church to shut and bolt their doors never to open again?
Why do you put words in peoples mouth. He did not say what you stated. He is wanting the Churches to see that is it all, I mean ALL about Jesus. Not about YOU. When you make it about you then you are doing what Satan did. He wanted the glory for himself. The Church is not suppost to be a country club.
I pray your eyes will be open and you a not asleep when Jesus comes, because it is about Jesus not about us. Put God first not just on the sign in front of the Church building.
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WhiteEagle
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pleasemaranatha:
I feel in my spirit after researching chip on his website and others that he is diegruntled and angry ath the church that fired or let him go. He was humiliated and now is making a living of turning everything upside down and sideways for profit himself.
He groups all churches together. ALLLLLLLL religions together. I don't see good. My Holy Spirit is showing me the truth with him. He is doing what the accussers say the others do with seeking a life style from ministry. He is flipping it all around for his own financial rewards do to his bitterness.
Where is the fruits shown in chip? I see only a bad motive disguised with a costume and mask.
I am sorry if I make you hate me. But I must speak what God is showing me.
WOW! Interesting, that you see this. I respect your discernment.
I thought Chip's article was a good expostition, and did not feel it was bad.
I guess I felt he was just bringing out that the REAL BRIDE of CHRIST isn't neccesarily within the borders of what man likes to call a church building.
I agree with you that not all churches are as deficient as the ones Chip describes.
But in the big picture of things, what we might think of as the CHURCH, will be different when Christ comes to claim HIS BRIDE.
I do respect your discernment here. Perhaps Chip went overboard in trying to make his point?
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
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Pleasemaranatha
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I feel in my spirit after researching chip on his website and others that he is diegruntled and angry ath the church that fired or let him go. He was humiliated and now is making a living of turning everything upside down and sideways for profit himself.
He groups all churches together. ALLLLLLLL religions together. I don't see good. My Holy Spirit is showing me the truth with him. He is doing what the accussers say the others do with seeking a life style from ministry. He is flipping it all around for his own financial rewards do to his bitterness.
Where is the fruits shown in chip? I see only a bad motive disguised with a costume and mask.
I am sorry if I make you hate me. But I must speak what God is showing me.
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My soul waiteth for the Lord more than they that watch for the morning. Psalms 130 verse 6
Joyce
Posts: 308 | From: Missouri | Registered: Oct 2005
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BORN AGAIN
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posted
Pleasemaranatha, I read part of Chip Brodgen's article this time and he is not my type of Christian writer either.
He writes for instance quote:
You ask is not a Christian one who believes thus and so, or behaves thus and so.
A Christian IS someone who believes thus and so, and well s/he should, for else s/he cannot enter into the free gift of eternal life and be bornagain from above.
So when you continue quote:
We answer that they may very well believe or behave thus and so, but the belief or the behavior, while it may assist us in identifying them, is not what makes them a Christian.
Uh, did I want to say hogwash? What makes a person a Christian depends 100% of what s/he believes.
A strict mandatory set of beliefs comes first, and only when this set of beliefs is met, then life is given to the believer.
So a Christian is not first defined by the life they have, but by what they believe.
So what brother Chip said in that quote was not true; what a person believes is what makes a person a Christian, while Chip wrote: quote:
We answer that they may very well believe or behave thus and so, but the belief or the behavior, while it may assist us in identifying them, is not what makes them a Christian. It is the Life.
Hello??? They both are necessary and life must be preceded by a very specific kind of belief first which must be 100% met, else the LIFE won't come.
Thus, Chip is not my kind of Christian writer.
God bless, BORN AGAIN in the USA by the ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif) of Lord God Yeshua-Jesus
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Pleasemaranatha
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posted
I have been to many different religious churches that had doctrine and man made rules etc.
But, at all of them the scripture was spoken, the love of God was taught, sin was taught about, repentance, and baptism were taught about. The Lord was Glorified and lifted up for all to worship and adore.
Some churches were so full of the Holy Spirit that it was awesome and we the (temple) were on our faces flat in prayer to God.
What does chip want? Every church to shut and bolt their doors never to open again?
God uses some churches and religions in spite of the sins of man. Give God some credit! Man's sin is everywhere but God has always been able to have HIS will be done. Children and adults alike learn of Jesus and get discipled falling in complete surrender to Jesus Christ from attending church.
God is LOVE.......The bible said so and I see the Lord. He is so beautiful and I thank Him for forgiving us for not seeing how wonderful He is.
that is all for now. nite
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My soul waiteth for the Lord more than they that watch for the morning. Psalms 130 verse 6
Joyce
Posts: 308 | From: Missouri | Registered: Oct 2005
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yahsway
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That article by Chip is just awesome!!!!! With every sentence I read all I could do was shout Yes, Yes, Yes, thats it! Amen!! ![[clap2]](graemlins/clap2.gif)
Posts: 1238 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Aug 2004
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Member # 15
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posted
Sister Joyce: we were posting at the same time. I did not see your post when I posted mine.
Did we read the same article?
I was amening all the way through it and the picture of the living stones made me want to cry it was so beautiful. I enjoy Brogden and I would love to be blessed with his gift for writing. How I can relate to this young woman who goes into this church building after her vision!
I was surprised by your response to this article, which I thought was beautiful. I have sent you a PM asking you why you felt this way about the article. I look forward to understanding but I wanted to say something here that no one thought I was mocking you. I just really loved this article.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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Pleasemaranatha
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Member # 5150
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posted
![[crying]](graemlins/crying.gif) I am going to do heavy praying for Chip and you David. You posted about fruits.
I don't ever see any from Chip's writings.
He is hard, unloving, unkind, rude, and offensive
in many ways. Where are the fruits we should
see from anything you post from Chip Brogden?
He gives me a stomach ache every time I read his writings.
May God forgive him.
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My soul waiteth for the Lord more than they that watch for the morning. Psalms 130 verse 6
Joyce
Posts: 308 | From: Missouri | Registered: Oct 2005
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KnowHim
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Member # 1
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Escape From Churchianity
by Chip Brogden
It is important that we make a clear distinction between the True Church (the Ecclesia) and the Institutional Church, Organized Religion, or religion in general. The easiest way to begin is to discuss one critical thing that Organized Religion cannot do.
Organized Religion cannot impart Life.
"This is our testimony, that God has given us Eternal Life, and this Life is in His Son: He that has the Son has Life, and He that has not the Son of God has not Life (I John 5:11,12)."
Contrary to popular belief, the Lord Jesus Christ does not live within the matrix of Organized Religion. The Ecclesia, like our Lord, is Wholly Other. I can prove it to you beyond the shadow of a doubt. Can you join a "church" ? Yes, if you meet their requirements for membership. Can you join the Ecclesia? No. You have to be born into it. Or, to be more correct, you have to be born-again into it. It is not a question of joining or not joining, but a question of having Life versus not having Life. "He that has the Son has Life; He that has not the Son has not Life."
Some erroneously believe Jesus founded a movement, or formed a new religion. No, the world already had movements and religions, and would continue to have them. He had no intention of starting a new one. What did He bring us? What did He contribute to the world? He committed Himself to us as our Life.
Muhammad, Buddha, Confucius, or Socrates can bring us good teaching, moral excellence, and religious philosophy. For this they may be commended as rendering help and aid to humanity. But Jesus Christ is different: He brings us Himself as our Life. It is not that He merely transmits some teachings to us, depositing some virtue into the human race, before being taken up into heaven. It is well beyond Him simply being an example for us to follow, the standard by which our morals are measured as we frantically whisper, "What would Jesus do?". No, He Himself came to be our Life. He is Savior, and Salvation. He is Redeemer, and Redemption. He is Healer, and Healing. He is the Giver of Life, and He is Life.
In Him is Life because He is Life. All who are in Him possess Life, and Life possesses them. The Life is in the Son. The Son is in me, and I am in Him. We share in a common Life. "He that is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him (I Corinthians 6:7)."
Everyone together who possess Life are called the Ecclesia, the Church, the Body of Christ. The individual members of the Ecclesia are called Christians. They are the in-Christed ones. They abide in Him, and He abides in them.
You ask is not a Christian one who believes thus and so, or behaves thus and so. We answer that they may very well believe or behave thus and so, but the belief or the behavior, while it may assist us in identifying them, is not what makes them a Christian. It is the Life. Certainly, Christians have a core system of beliefs and practices. But the characteristic of a Christian is Life. It is not even "the Lord of my life", implying something apart from Him that I still have control over; it is "the Lord AS my Life."
An intellectual Christianity is what Organized Religion brings. It cannot impart Life. What do I mean by an intellectual Christianity? It is the ABC Gospel. Perhaps you have heard it. Salvation is obtained in three easy steps: "A" stands for "admit you are a sinner"; "B" stands for "believe on the Lord Jesus to save you"; and "C" stands for "confess Jesus as your personal Savior." What is wrong with that? Simply this: there is no Life there. "ABC" will not save us. With "ABC" there is no encounter with Jesus, Who alone is Life. There is only an intellectual acceptance and affirmation of what is presented as "Three Easy Steps". I believe this, I say that, and that makes me a Christian, right? No, it just makes you religious. There are many people who "get religion", but they don't get Jesus.
Organized Religion has caused Christianity to morph into Churchianity, a gospel which is easy to believe in but progressively more difficult to live up to.
Organized Religion can bring doctrine, teaching, and belief. Some of it may be morally excellent and good. Some of it may even sound Biblical, like "Three Easy Steps". Nevertheless, Organized Religion cannot impart Life. Why? Because it has no Life to give. Jesus Christ is the Life. And Jesus does not live within the matrix of Organized Religion. He gives HIMSELF. How can any man, organization, or movement claim to give away another man, much less impart the very Life of Jesus Christ? Only Jesus can give Himself as our Life.
You see, then, that the most anyone can do is point people to Jesus as the sole Source of Life. They may contact Life through us, but we cannot give them Life. To those bound by Organized Religion, Jesus cries "You search the Scriptures, because you think in them you have Life. You are content to read about Me, but you will not come to Me that you may have Life (John 5:39,40, paraphrased)." Come to Me! Not, "Memorize these Three Easy Steps and attend the Church of your choice this Sunday." Come to Me! He is Life.
The Church, the Lord's Ecclesia, is the synthesis of individuals who have the Revelation of Jesus and have come to Him to receive Him as their Life. Here is where the confusion begins. We glibly use the term "church" to describe things which are not The Lord's Ecclesia. A building devoted to religious meetings is called "the church". Attending a religious meeting is called "going to church." Hearing a good message or good music during the religious meeting is called "having church" (a popular tune says "crank up the music, let's have church!"). Becoming a member of the non-profit organization which owns the building devoted to religious meetings is called "joining the church". Taking responsibility as the founder or being voted in as the director of the non-profit organization which owns the building devoted to religious meetings is called "pastoring the church". Making additions to the building devoted to religious meetings or to the membership list of the non-profit organization which owns the building is called "church growth".
Why are we being so facetious and wordy? Why do we choose our phraseology carefully? For the sake of convenience, or just plain laziness, people have grown accustomed to saying "church" instead of "a non-profit organization that owns a building devoted to religious meetings." Whatever nomenclature you decide upon, we are drawing the line and making a distinction between "The Church" and "church". We hope to impress upon you the difference between what people customarily call "church" and what the Lord considers to be "The Church". As demonstrated above, much of what we call "church" is simply Organized Religion. It is not the Lord's Ecclesia.
We simply see things the way we have been trained to see them; we do not see things as God sees them. It is very easy to quantify and describe things in terms of Organized Religion because it is earthy, worldly, natural. Ask someone on the street. What is church? Why, it is that building there with a steeple on top. What is a pastor? The fellow who does the preaching. What is a Christian? The folks who read their Bible a lot and pray a lot and go to church a lot - you know, doing good works. You see how easy it is to define. It is tangible, concrete. We can get our hands on that.
But the reality is that everything which makes up the Ecclesia is spiritual, and thus, it is invisible to the naked eye. It is non-corporeal. It cannot be measured by dollars and statistics. Now ask the same questions of someone who knows better. What is church? The Church, the Ecclesia, is the synthesis of individuals who have the Revelation of Jesus and have come to Him to receive Him as their Life. Pray tell, where do I find that? What do I look for? You can't do it, it's like trying to find the wind at 101 North Main Street. It is beyond geographical description; it is everywhere and nowhere. What is a pastor? Someone called to feed the Lord's sheep as an under shepherd of the Chief Shepherd. Huh? You mean preaching? No, not necessarily. You mean a doctor of theology? No, not really. Oh never mind: what is a Christian? Oh that's easy, someone who is in Christ. What do you mean "in Christ"? Don't you mean "believes in Christ?" No, I mean IS in Christ, in union, one with Him. So what does THAT look like? How many chapters of the Bible do they read per day? How long do they pray? How often do they attend church? It defies explanation because the truth is it has nothing to do with the external, only the internal. Like the wind: you can see the effects of it but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it goes; so are they which are born of the Spirit (John 3). This invisible Life is the characteristic of the Ecclesia. When you can capture the wind in a bag then you can stuff Christians into a building and call it "church". " Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you (Luke 17:21)."
So, from our vantage point here on earth, Organized Religion can be easily seen, felt, touched, experienced, quantified, denominated, characterized, categorized, analyzed, and explained. We can chart its progress and hang the data up on the wall, point to it and say yep, we've got this many million converts here, and this many million members there. Church growth is up (or down), we collected this many billions of dollars last year, and in relation to the rest of the world's religions we rank number whatever. We've got this many thousands of churches in this part of the world, we have this many thousands of pastors and Christian workers, and we've translated the Bible into this many different languages.
Meanwhile, what drives the Real Church, the Ecclesia, is invisible, spiritual, ethereal, in the world but not of the world, hidden, veiled, hard to describe in terms we can understand. We can't generate the data and hang it up on the wall. Even those who know what the Ecclesia is sometimes have difficulty expressing themselves. Ask them where to find the Church of which they so longingly speak, and they are apt to reply, "I'm not sure if I know where the Church is, brother, but I sure know where it ain't!"
Now imagine that the Lord wakes you up one night and says, "Come up hither, and I will show you the Church." You expect Him to carry you down the street to the Family Worship Center or across the country to where the crowds say they are experiencing revival; but instead you find yourself rising high into the air, leaving the earth behind, and in the blink of an eye you travel beyond the edges of the temporal universe and into the spirit realm, seated with Christ in heavenly places, there in the throne of God.
Seated with the Lord and looking back down upon the world, we find from this perspective that the cathedrals, the church buildings, the worship centers, the sanctuaries, the denominational offices, the seminaries, the tithes and offerings, the membership drives, the movements, all vanish from sight. Everything melts away. He does not see the Assemblies of God, the Southern Baptists, the United Methodists, the Lutherans, the Presbyterians, or the Roman Catholics. He does not see Charismatics or Fundamentalists or Bible Belts or Christian Conservatives or Religious Rights. He does not see the building devoted to religious meetings as anything more special or significant than the grocery store or barber shop. He sees pastors, yes, but strangely, He does not see every director of a non-profit organization who owns a building devoted to religious meetings as a pastor. And it is not just the pastors that are different, from our heavenly observation point. Everything seems odd. Backwards. Apostles are not where you expect them to be, and they are not doing what you expect them to be doing; neither are prophets, evangelists, or teachers. Yet, they are right where He wants them to be, doing exactly what He wants them to do. Interestingly enough, He is not concerned with a rise or a decline in church attendance because He does not see the Church as something which can be attended. Hmmmm.
Standing next to Him we see as He sees. We realize when we look upon Christendom that all God sees there is His Church, the Ecclesia. He deems those who abide in Him, those who possess the Son, as those who have Life. His Church is not declining, it is growing because His Life cannot be contained or restricted. His Ecclesia is outside the matrix. His Church is spiritual, and as such, it is eternal, transcending time and space. Just as He is, and does.
You look upon His Face and see the curve of His smile, so you follow His gaze - and there it is, the living stones and precious gems which make up His Church. You couldn't see them before, because you were right in the middle of it while still on earth. But now, far removed from it all and looking down upon it from the Lord's perspective, you see that the living stones are being assembled together into a brilliant, gleaming, dazzling building which covers the entire earth! An angel stands apart from it, shouting, "100% pure: never touched by human hands!" You zoom in closer and discover that the stones and gems are not literal stones and gems, but people! Wonderful, beautiful, joy-filled people, joined together into a striking mosaic of vibrant colors, a tapestry of interwoven beauty, a medley of lives in perfect twelve-part harmony, all pulsing with His heartbeat, His Life, His Essence. You begin to weep at the unadulterated purity of it and oneness of it. There is no spot, wrinkle, or blemish to be found.
Only God could make something this gorgeous. Only God. Only God. And there in the midst of this wonderful place, you see what makes it so splendid...
There HE is, walking around in the midst of this Temple, adding living stone upon living stone, precious gem upon precious gem, and what do you hear? Singing? Yes. The Living Stones are crying out in praise. And He is smiling, and - whistling! - while He works.
Jesus is building His Church.
Then, as quickly as it began, it is over.
You open your eyes and find yourself back on earth, having returned to your three-dimensional world. It's a sunny day, the birds are singing, the church bells are ringing, and you see men, women, and children walking down the street, carrying their Bibles. You rush out into the road and grab an elderly gentleman.
"Where are you going? What's going on? Why are you so dressed up?"
"Get your hands off me, you crazy idiot! It's Sunday morning, and I'm going to church!"
"You've seen the Church??"
"Seen it? Of course I've seen it. My great-great grandfather helped build that church!"
"No, I mean have you SEEN the CHURCH," you repeat emphatically. "The Church that JESUS is building!"
"I don't know what the devil you're talking about, young man. Now let me alone, or I'll be late!"
You let him go and before you know it you are swept along by the crowd and find yourself sitting within the four walls of a building that calls itself "First Hypocritical Church, International."
The service is just beginning. The pastor approaches the lectern and announces, "Let's all stand and sing!"
Not sure what to do, you join in the chorus:
Know ye not, know ye not ye are the Temple?
Know ye not, know ye not ye are the Temple?
Know ye not, know ye not ye are the Temple?
Ye are the Temple of the Holy Ghost!
At the end of the song the pastor appears at the lectern again and matter-of-factly shouts, "Isn't it good to be in the house of God today!" It's more of a statement than a question. And all the people say, "AMEN!"
Hope rises! The House of God! Maybe he's seen it too! Forgetting where you are, you stand up and excitedly shout "Have YOU seen the House of God, brother?"
"Amen!" He replies. "It's good to be in church this morning!"
"Amen!" the people agree.
"No, wait a minute," you interrupt, mouthing the words ever so slowly and deliberately, as if you were talking to a deaf lip reader. "Have you SEEN the CHURCH, brother? The Church that JESUS is building?"
All heads are turned now, facing you. The old man, one of the deacons, whispers, "That's the weirdo I met on the way to church this morning!"
The pastor is growing impatient. "This IS the church, brother. Hallelujah!"
"But sir," you press, "KNOW YE NOT YE ARE THE TEMPLE???"
The silence is deafening.
"You are the Temple. WE are the Temple! Jesus is building His Church! I' ve seen it! It's a wonderful House of Living Stones, filled with His Life! We are the Church that He is building! We are the Living Stones, the Precious Gems! I saw Jesus, and He was smiling and placing the stones together, and..."
Some teenagers on the back row are giggling.
"I've seen it! It's true! The stones... the jewels... it's gorgeous!"
The people are looking at the pastor to see what he will do.
Slowly it dawns on you. You realize that to them you are an alien from another planet trying to communicate something that is so real to you but is totally foreign to the rest of the world.
Desperately you grab the man standing next to you by the shoulders, thinking to shake it into him. "You don't believe me... But it's true! You sing about it... but you don't believe it! YOU ARE THE TEMPLE! You have to believe me! I've seen it! Jesus is building His Church!"
The ushers are making their way over to your place in the pew.
Sweating and shaking, you look around the sanctuary, wild-eyed. "No, something's wrong here. Everything is different... this isn't the Church! I mean, you're calling it church, but this isn't what I've seen at all. No, the Church is... is... One Flock with One Shepherd, not divided up into denominations and sects! It's a mosaic of people! It's a tapestry of rich colors! It's a medley..." You begin to sob. "Listen to me! Know ye not ye are the Temple?!?"
The congregation is uncomfortable and agitated. The old deacon is ashen-faced, glaring at the pastor to put an end to this.
"Friend," the pastor finally manages, "if you'll go with the ushers I'm sure we can better minister to you in private. With every head bowed and every eye closed, why don't we go to the Lord in prayer right now."
While every head is bowed and every eye is closed, except the pastor's head and eyes, the ushers quickly hustle you out the back door and throw you down the steps.
The pastor smiles. "and the church said... AMEN. Amen. You may be seated. Well, praise the Lord. Today my message is entitled, 'What It Means To Be A Christian'. Turn in your Bibles to...".
* * *
If God would grant you a moment by His side and allow you a fleeting glance at His Church you would at once understand what a pitiful substitute we have in Organized Religion. There is no vanity so deep as religious vanity, nothing more sickening and diametrically opposed to the heart and ultimate purpose of God.
And we who are in Christ Jesus ARE seated with Him in heavenly places (Ephesians 2:6).
If God is pleased to grant you this vision of His Church then you will come to appreciate it as a blessing and a curse. A blessing, because to see things as He sees them is true Wisdom and Oneness with Him and His people. A curse, because to see things as He sees them will ruin you for life, for you will never again be able to accept the surrogate, the counterfeit, even the good, at the expense of the Holy. His Church, His Treasure, how holy and pure and wonderful and unspeakable it is! Before you would casually call this thing and that thing "church" just like everyone else does and find it socially acceptable, but now your skin will crawl and your stomach will twist in knots when you hear others call some building the "house of God", knowing full well that His House is not this dead thing made with human hands!
It will not be enough for you to then say: "Lord, the Church belongs to You, not to me, not to anyone. Now I see my mistake. I take my hands off of it, for it is not mine to control or run. I repent of trying to build what you wish to destroy, and destroying what you wish to build. What am I, Lord, but a little stone, a little sheep, a little member of a wonderful Body of Believers? You are building Your Church, and now I will let you do it. At last I see. Only let me find a quiet place to serve You and serve Your people in secret, for I want nothing else for me, but all of it for You."
No, once you see this, once you take your hands off of His Bride, once you stop beating your brothers and sisters in the Name of God, then you will be jealous over His Church with His jealously, and will be so sensitive and so aware of false pastors and false teachers and false evangelists and false prophets and false apostles - yes, all that would abuse and confuse and rape and pillage His People! It is a question of seeing! And see, you will! You will see as He sees, hear as He hears, feel as He feels. "He was angered at their hardness of heart." Without effort, without trying, you will see right through the false, the quasi-faith, the pseudo-spirituality, the whitewashed tombs full of dead men's bones. Once you have had a taste of Real Life, you smell Death a thousand miles away, and your spirit rebels against it, your emotions scream in protest, and you are sick to your stomach with grief, anger, and compassion all at once. "No! This is not the Ecclesia. This is not the Lord's Church. This is a sham. This is bogus. This is nothing but Organized Religion!"
May God have mercy on us, and give us such a revelation of Himself, and His Church, that we may escape from Churchianity and find Life.
We are not suggesting that you challenge the system this Sunday by provoking a public confrontation with some unsuspecting pastor. All the argument in the world will not convince people, nor should we attempt to make people see. Simply allow them to see. Look upon the face of Him who sees things as they are, that others may look into your eyes and see Him as He is. One minute of seeing is worth a lifetime of argument. God will grant us a discerning heart and eyes to see if we will ask for them, and if we are willing to accept both the joy and the burden that accompanies such a revelation.
http://www.theschoolofchrist.org/articles/escape.html
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