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Topic: Dear Dr. Laura....
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helpforhomeschoolers
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The Israelites were decendants of Jacob whom God named Israel.
Jew
The name derived from the patriarch Judah, at first given to one belonging to the tribe of Judah or to the separate kingdom of Judah #2Ki 16:6 25:25 Jer 32:12 38:19 40:11 41:3 in contradistinction from those belonging to the kingdom of the ten tribes, who were called Israelites.
During the Captivity, and after the Restoration, the name, however, was extended to all the Hebrew nation without distinction #Es 3:6,10 Da 3:8,12 Ezr 4:12 5:1,5 Originally this people were called Hebrews #Ge 39:14 40:15 Ex 2:7 3:18 5:3 1Sa 4:6,9 etc., but after the Exile this name fell into disuse.
But Paul was styled a Hebrew #2Co 11:22 Php 3:5 The history of the Jewish nation is interwoven with the history of Palestine and with the narratives of the lives of their rulers and chief men.
They are now dispersed over all lands, and to this day remain a separate people, "without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image [R.V. 'pillar,' marg. 'obelisk'], and without an ephod, and without teraphim" #Ho 3:4 Till about the beginning of the present century they were everywhere greatly oppressed, and often cruelly persecuted; but their condition greatly improved, and they were admitted in most European countries to all the rights of free citizens. In 1860 the "Jewish disabilities" were removed, and they were admitted to a seat in the British Parliament.
Their number in all is estimated at about six millions, about four millions being in Europe. The 20th century brought a renewed persecution far worst than any which had come before There are three names used in the New Testament to designate this people,
1. Jews, as regards their nationality, to distinguish them from Gentiles.
2. Hebrews, with regard to their language and education, to distinguish them from Hellenists, i.e., Jews who spoke the Greek language.
3. Israelites, as respects their sacred privileges as the chosen people of God. "To other races we owe the splendid inheritance of modern civilization and secular culture; but the religious education of mankind has been the gift of the Jew alone."
After the Babylonian captivity of Judah the Southern Kingdom, the people that returned under Cyrus to rebuild Jerusalem were called Jews. The Hebrew language was all but lost during the captivity and at the Time of Jesus not many Jews spoke Hebrew at all. Greek had taken over the world and The sacred sriptures had been translated into Greek. This was called the Septuagent. Most spoke Kione Greek wich was a gramatically lax form of Greek, different from classical Greek or they spoke Aramaic, Daniel and Ezra are written in Aramaic.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Maybe this will help un ![[Confused]](confused.gif) you. Hebrew was applied to Abram even before he was Abraham. The Hebrews are decended from Eber.
Hebrew
A name applied to the Israelites in Scripture only by one who is a foreigner #Ge 39:14,17 41:12 etc., or by the Israelites when they speak of themselves to foreigners #Ge 40:15 Ex 1:19 or when spoken of an contrasted with other peoples #Ge 43:32 Ex 1:3,7,15 De 15:12 In the New Testament there is the same contrast between Hebrews and foreigners #Ac 6:1 Php 3:5
Derivation.
1. The name is derived, according to some, from Eber #Ge 10:24 the ancestor of Abraham. The Hebrews are "sons of Eber" #Ge 10:21
2. Others trace the name of a Hebrew root-word signifying "to pass over," and hence regard it as meaning "the man who passed over," viz., the Euphrates; or to the Hebrew word meaning "the region" or "country beyond," viz., the land of Chaldea. This latter view is preferred. It is the more probable origin of the designation given to Abraham coming among the Canaanites as a man from beyond the Euphrates #Ge 14:13
3. A third derivation of the word has been suggested, viz., that it is from the Hebrew word _’ abhar_, "to pass over," whence _’ ebher_, in the sense of a "sojourner" or "passer through" as distinct from a "settler" in the land, and thus applies to the condition of Abraham #Heb 11:13
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
quote:
The Jews were often called Hebrews.
The point was that the Torah was given also to those Hebrews who were not Jews.
Hebrew noun: a person belonging to the worldwide group claiming descent from Jacob (or converted to it) and connected by cultural or religious ties.
~The twelve tribes of Israel descended from Jacob through his sons. Hebrew is also the language of the Jews.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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quote:
The Jews were often called Hebrews.
![[roll on floor]](graemlins/6.gif) yes, the Jews were Hebrews! The point was that the Torah was given also to those Hebrews who were not Jews. It was given to the Hebrews (not just jews) to live by; it was "meant"for us all for for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.
Sorry for not being more clear.
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
Laura Schlessinger is a Jew and at this point and not knowing the Messiah she cannot possibly offer adequate apologetics for these mockings
You also said -
quote:
The Torah was given to the Hebrews- not just the Jew, to live by. It IS meant for all God's children for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness, which is why it has been preserved by HIM for us.
So knowing the Torah, Dr. Laura just may not be so incapable of responding to the Leviticus revelation. BTW, I believe God has a sense of humour. He probably had a little chuckle out of. I don't see it is a mockery - that is something from the past and it doesn't degrade to-day's new covenant through Jesus.
quote:
From HFHS "The Torah was given to the Hebrews- not just the Jew, to live by. It IS meant for all God's children for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness, which is why it has been preserved by HIM for us.
The Jews were often called Hebrews.
Jeremiah 34:9
Everyone was to free his Hebrew slaves, both male and female; no one was to hold a fellow Jew in bondage.
Easton Dictionary - Hebrew - a name applied to the Israelites in Scripture only by one who is a foreigner (Gen. 39:14, 17; 41:12, etc.), or by the Israelites when they speak of themselves to foreigners (40:15; Ex. 1:19), or when spoken of an contrasted with other peoples (Gen. 43:32; Ex. 1:3, 7, 15; Deut. 15:12). In the New Testament there is the same contrast between Hebrews and foreigners (Acts 6:1; Phil. 3:5).
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From yahsway -I am not talking about the ordiances of those laws, meaning the punishments for disobeying them. But look at those laws thru the Spirit. Just as she laid them out. It truly was one of the best I have seen and she did a wonderful study on the Laws of God, would you not agree?
I agree 100% - HFHS has given us a tremendous amount of food for thought. ![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif)
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From wparr -So we can rip out those portions from our Bible?
I never said that any portion of the Bible should be ripped out. The rules in the Torah were given by God himself to Moses and were necessary for that era., but God gave us a better plan out of His bountiful grace, love and mercy - Jesus and the cross. ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif)
THE CROSS MAKES THE DIFFERENCE. We have to strip away everything that will take away our focus from the cross. Physical circumcisions take away from our focus on Jesus. Passover meals take away from our own sacrificial Lamb and put the focus on earthly sacrificial lambs instead. Legalism takes away our focus from Jesus. Should I worry about making sure all of my food is carefully koshered, or which fork or dish to put my food on, or make sure every cooking utensil and the stove are carefully cleansed and purified?
THE CROSS MAKES THE DIFFERENCE
Paul preached about focusing only on the gospel of Jesus Crist. He didn't even have a baptismal ministry, because he was concerned that his message would be diluted by being side-tracked with other matters.{He just did about half a dozen baptisms in the first part of his ministy.)
1 Cor. 1:17 For Christ didn't send me to baptize, but to preach the Good News and not with clever speaking and high-sounding ideas, for fear that the cross of Christ would lost its power.
THE CROSS MAKES THE DIFFERENCE
1 Cor. 2 : For I decided to concentrate only on Jesus Christ and his death on the cross.
THE CROSS MAKES THE DIFFERENCE
Colossians -Freedom From Human Regulations Through Life With Christ -
Col. 2: 6-17 So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live in him, rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness.
See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.
For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ,having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.
When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, NAILING IT TO THE CROSS. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.
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yahsway
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HisGrace, I said read the laws of the Torah "IN light of the Spirit"
Lev 24:10 Speaks of one who blasphemed HaShem(THe Name, God)
Now, what does the New Test say about one who Blasphemes God, or Jesus? What does it say about one who Blasphemes the Holy SPIRIT?
Now, verse 20 in Lev speaking of eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth is a hebrew Idiom. The principle of "lex talionis" was used to prevent extreme brutality in Exacting retribution. In the ancient Middle East, it had been the practice to take the life of one who had caused injury in retaliation for damages incurred. The Mosaic covenant limited retaliation. By the time of Jesus, the Pharisees had interpreted the law to mean that a person was required to PAY to the injured person compensation equivalent to the damages.
Kind of like if someone is killed here by a drunk driver and goes to jail for doing so. Or if one murders someone depending on the degree of that murder we have capital punishment.
The Torah was not meant for the Jews only. It was also for the stranger or the alien that lived among Gods people. Not unlike Ruth, who told Naomi "Your people are my people, and Your God is my God." Any gentile who wanted to Follow the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and join themselves with the people of Israel could do so.
Father God always allowed that. BUT, Father God did not allow the Israelites to join themselves to the other nations because they were pagan.
Anyone not born a Jew/Hebrew who wanted to worship THE ONE TRUE GOD could do so and join themselves with the people of Israel. God did not forbide that.
Here speaks of the Essence of Gods laws-
From the Torah
Duet. 10:12-
"And now Israel, what does the Lord your God reuire of you, but to Fear the Lord your God, to walk in all His ways and to Love Him, to serve the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul,
and to keep the commandments of the Lord and His statutes which I command you today for your good?
Indeed heaven and the highest heavens belong to the Lord your God, also the earth with all that is in it.
The Lord delighted only in your fathers, to love them; and He chose their descendants after them, you above all peoples as it is this day.
Therefore Circumcise the foreskin OF YOUR HEART, and be stiff-necked no longer.
For the Lord your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the Great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality nor takes a bribe.
He administers justice for the fatherless and the widow, and LOVES THE STRANGER, giving him food and clothing.
Therefore LOVE THE STRANGER, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt.
Isaiah 56:3
Do not let the son of the foreigner
Who has joined himself to the Lord
speak saying,
"The Lord has utterly seperated me from His People";
Nor let the eunuch say,
"Here I am a dry tree."
For thus says the Lord:
"To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths,
And choose what pleases Me, And hold fast to
My Covenant
Even to them I will give in My house
And within My walls a place and a name
Better than that of sons and daughters;
I will give them an everlasting name
That shall not be cut off.
"Also the sons of the foreigner
Who joins themselves to the Lord, to serve Him
And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants, Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath, and holds fast My Covenant
Even them I will bring to My holy mountain,
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrafices
Will be accepted on My alter;
For My house shall be called A House Of Prayer FOR ALL NATIONS."
The Lord God, who gathers the outcast of Israel, says,
"Yet I will gather to him OTHERS besides those who are gathered to him.
Again, go back and re-read HFHS post on the Spirit vs the Letter of the law.
You will see that most of all those laws are in effect today if you use them lawfully or in the Spirit.
I am not talking about the ordiances of those laws, meaning the punishments for disobeying them. But look at those laws thru the Spirit. Just as she laid them out. It truly was one of the best I have seen and she did a wonderful study on the Laws of God, would you not agree?
Shalom
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helpforhomeschoolers
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quote:
HisGrace says:If I murder someone and know that I am not going to have to worry about being responsible by having to pay a penalty, the law has become useless.
This is the doctrine of the Nicolatians. This makes Grace to be License to sin. Grace is not a license to sin. This statement is not true. Even if the penalty were paid for you, the law tells you that you have sinned.
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Yahsway says: The Jewish Sages Hillel and Akiva taught that within this law is contained ALL the other Laws of the Scriptures.
Jesus taught that too: Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
It is much easier to rely on one's own understanding and throw out the laws that speak of an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth as antiquated than to seek to understand what Jesus was saying in Matthew 5:39.
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His Grace says:The Torah was meant for the Jews in the OT.
The Torah was given to the Hebrews- not just the Jew, to live by. It IS meant for all God's children for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness, which is why it has been preserved by HIM for us.
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BORN AGAIN
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HisGrace writes quote:
The Torah was meant for the Jews in the OT. The new covenant is meant for everyone, Jews and Gentiles alike.
First of all, wasn't the Torah just the first 5 books of the Old Testament?
Also, when Jesus accompanied the two men walking to Emmaus, He opened the Old Testament up to them, showing them how and where He appeared in the Old Testament, "for they testify of Me," He said.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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wparr
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So we can rip out those portions from our Bible?
Explain THIS then (as has been pointed out before)
2 Timothy 3:16-17
All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by yahsway:
From HG "Therefore the law becomes null and void once you are free from its penalty".
From yahsway - "Are you sure?"
If I murder someone and know that I am not going to have to worry about being responsible by having to pay a penalty, the law has become useless.
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From yahsway - The Law was never meant to save us, but to show us how to live with God and our fellow man. Jesus set us FREE from SIN and DEATH. He walked out the Torah perfectly, and Paul walked as Jesus walked. having a good conscience with both God and man.
Jesus New Commandment to love one another as He loved us can be seen in Lev. 19:18 You shall love your neighbor as yourselves, I am the Lord.
This general rule summerizes and fulfills the other commandments. The Jewish Sages Hillel and Akiva taught that within this law is contained ALL the other Laws of the Scriptures.
ALL the laws? Further in the book of Leviticus, we see the punishment described for breaking one of these laws.
Leviticus 24:10 Now the son of an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father went out among the Israelites, and a fight broke out in the camp between him and an Israelite. The son of the Israelite woman blasphemed the Name with a curse; so they brought him to Moses. (His mother's name was Shelomith, the daughter of Dibri the Danite.) They put him in custody until the will of the LORD should be made clear to them.
Then the LORD said to Moses: 14 "Take the blasphemer outside the camp. All those who heard him are to lay their hands on his head, and the entire assembly is to STONE HIM. Say to the Israelites: 'If anyone curses his God, he will be held responsible; anyone who blasphemes the name of the LORD must be put to death. The entire assembly must stone him. Whether an alien or native-born, when he blasphemes the Name, he must be put to death.
'If anyone takes the life of a human being, he must be put to death. Anyone who takes the life of someone's animal must make restitution—life for life. If anyone injures his neighbor, whatever he has done must be done to him: fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth. As he has injured the other, so he is to be injured. Whoever kills an animal must make restitution, but whoever kills a man must be put to death. You are to have the same law for the alien and the native-born. I am the LORD your God.' "
Then Moses spoke to the Israelites, and they took the blasphemer outside the camp and stoned him. The Israelites did as the LORD commanded Moses.
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From yahsway - When you go back and read the Torah, in the light of the Spirit, not the letter, you see that Gods laws were not bondage. God wants us to worship and obey Him in Spirit AND in Truth. His word is Truth. Messiah Yeshua is God. Before Abraham was, He Was. He wrote the Torah Laws, He was that Water that the hebrews drank from in the desert, He was that Cloud by day and pillar of smoke by night. Jesus is the Alpha and Omega.
The Torah was meant for the Jews in the OT. The new covenant is meant for everyone, Jews and Gentiles alike.
Romans 3 27-29Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.
Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too,
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by wparr:
quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
I can't help but notice that your little bonhomme is dragging around the bondage of legalism and archaic laws. Do you not think that is what the old Levitical laws are all about?
archaic TRADITIONS is what it says
I stand corrected. The point I was trying to make is that the traditions of the Levitical laws are archaic.
quote:
LEGALISM is MAN-MADE rules, not Yahweh Elohim's commands (which reveal His character, His attributtes, His nature, His righteousness)
You can't get more legalistic than the laws laid in Leviticus.
Regarding circumcision it is well described in the following scripture.
Gal.5:5-7 So Christ has really set us free. Now make sure that you stay free, and don't get tied up again in slavery to the law.
Listen! I, Paul, tell you this: If you are counting on circumcision to make you right with God, then Christ cannot help you.
I'll say it again. If you are trying to find favor with God by being circumcised, you must obey all of the regulations in the whole law of Moses.
For if you are trying to make yourselves right with God by keeping the law, you have been cut off from Christ! You have fallen away from God's grace.
But we who live by the Spirit eagerly wait to receive everything promised to us who are right with God through faith. For when we place our faith in Christ Jesus, it makes no difference to God whether we are circumcised or not circumcised. What is important is faith expressing itself in love.
I am trusting the Lord to bring you back to believing as I do about these things. God will judge that person, whoever it is, who has been troubling and confusing you.
Dear brothers and sisters, if I were still preaching that you must be circumcised--as some say I do--why would the Jews persecute me? The fact that I am still being persecuted proves that I am still preaching salvation through the cross of Christ alone. I only wish that those troublemakers who want to mutilate you by circumcision would mutilate themselves.
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yahsway
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"Therefore the law becomes null and void once you are free from its penalty".
Are you sure? Here is an example I want to throw out for thought?
Lets say we have speeding laws and you are driving 75mph in a 55mph zone. The police pull you over and give you a speeding ticket for breaking the speed laws. You go to court to face the judge about your ticket but cannot pay the fine. Someone steps in on your behalf and pays your fine for you.
Okay, so since your fine has been paid, does that make null and void the speed laws that are in place? NO it doesn't. The same speed law of 55mph has not been done away with. But now you are so grateful for the mercy and grace shown to you by the person paying your fine that you now want to obey the speed laws out of honor and respect and love for that one who saved you from the fine.
HFHS showed on her post about the OT laws and how the Letter vs the Spirit of those same laws.
She also showed in another post how the Pharisees and Sadusees built "fenses" around the law thru their mishna and talmud and this is what Jesus blasted them for, He did not blast them for keeping Gods laws as they were written in the Torah, but for their adding and taking away from them that kept the people in bondage.
He told them that they paid tithe of mint ect... but that they neglected the weightier matters of the Torah (notice Jesus says the weightier matters of THE TORAH) which were what? Mercy, juctice, grace,, ect.. These are in the Torah, if they were not, Jesus would have said so.
The Law was never meant to save us, but to show us how to live with God and our fellow man. Jesus set us FREE from SIN and DEATH. He walked out the Torah perfectly, and Paul walked as Jesus walked. having a good conscience with both God and man.
Jesus New Commandment to love one another as He loved us can be seen in Lev. 19:18 You shall love your neighbor as yourselves, I am the Lord.
This general rule summerizes and fulfills the other commandments. The Jewish Sages Hillel and Akiva taught that within this law is contained ALL the other Laws of the Scriptures.
Jesus set us free from the Letter of the Law and broght forth what had been missing, the Spirit of the law.
Paul, a Pharisee, had the scales removed from his eyes. He saw the Torah, He spoke with the Torah, Jesus, the Word, The Instuction, The Way, The Living Torah! The Messiah spoken of by Moses saying "Him you will hear".
When you go back and read the Torah, in the light of the Spirit, not the letter, you see that Gods laws were not bondage. God wants us to worship and obey Him in Spirit AND in Truth. His word is Truth. Messiah Yeshua is God. Before Abraham was, He Was. He wrote the Torah Laws, He was that Water that the hebrews drank from in the desert, He was that Cloud by day and pillar of smoke by night. Jesus is the Alpha and Omega.
He did not come to start a "New Religon". He was and Is the completeness of all scripture. Men make religons.
I do not obey Gods laws for salvation. I obey them out of a love for Him thru such a Great Salvation. I remeber that Jesus taught us that who ever taught men that the law was done away with would be called Least in the kingdom. I see much grace/mercy in this statement. For He did not say they would not enter the kingdom, just be called least in the kingdom.
re-read HFHS post on the Laws of God and see the Spirit. He is there. Shalom
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wparr
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quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
I can't help but notice that your little bonhomme is dragging around the bondage of legalism and archaic laws. Do you not think that is what the old Levitical laws are all about?
archaic TRADITIONS is what it says
LEGALISM is MAN-MADE rules, not Yahweh Elohim's commands (which reveal His character, His attributtes, His nature, His righteousness)
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Romans 2:24-29
(24) For "THE NAME OF GOD IS BLASPHEMED AMONG THE GENTILES BECAUSE OF YOU," just as it is written.
(25) For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.
(26) So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?
(27) And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?
(28) For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
(29) But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
See circumcision STILL apply today, but of THE HEART rather than the flesh
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Do sacrifices STILL apply today?
Y'shua was the sacrifice for the atonement of sin so that was fullfilled
but.......
Romans 12:1
Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.
Sacrifice STILL applies today, but of the HEART rather than of flesh.
Are you SEEING with spiritual eyes?
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by wparr:
Romans 7:7-14
(7) What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET."
wparr, Romans 7 is talking about one of the 10 Commandments "You shalt not covet." I have made it very clear that I believe in the 10 Commandments.
I can't help but notice that your little bonhomme is dragging around the bondage of legalism and archaic laws. Do you not think that is what the old Levitical laws are all about?
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by yahsway:
HisGrace, what did Jesus FREE you from. What lawlaws were you UNDER according to the Old Testament that you have been set free from?
Is is the law/laws you have been set free from to disobey, or have you been set free from the curse of disobeying such laws?
Is/Was it the laws of God that were/are sinful or is it people that are sinful?
What did Jesus's precious blood FREE you from.
From the curse of disobeying Gods laws? Or just from Gods laws in general?
What was/Is so bad about Gods laws? Was it the Laws themselves? or was it the Curse of disobeying those laws?
Is God the same Yesterday, Today, and Forever?
I just do not see how anyone could think that God's laws are bondage. Shalom
I'm not making this up. I am going from what the Bible says. God is the same yesterday, today and forever, but what about the cross?
Some may try to say that we are free from the penalty of the law. Laws have to be in place in order to be free from their penalty Therefore the law becomes nul and void once you are free from its penalty. As you read the scriptures notice the theme of faith and love make the difference, not condemntation as under the old law.
I think I have made my postion quite clear on a number of threads. On different occasions, someone has accused me of using the gospel according to HisGrace (not by you yahsway) and of twisting and manipulating the scriptures with a cavalier attitude, so I will leave these scriptures with you to study for yourself.
In Jesus' own words -
John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Romans 10:4-7 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:) Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
Galatians has many scriptures discussing the law.
Gal. 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Gal. 3:19 Well then, why was the law given? It was given to show people how guilty they are. But this system of law was to last only until the coming of the child to whom God's promise was made. And there is this further difference. God gave his laws to angels to give to Moses, who was the mediator between God and the people.
Ephes. 2:14-16 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations.
His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.
Circumcision was one of the number one cardinal rules for the Jewish religion; even that changed through the blood of Jesus.
Genesis 17:14
Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant."
New Covenant -
Gal. 5:1-6 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.
Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law.
You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.
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wparr
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Romans 7:7-14
(7) What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET."
(8) But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.
(9) I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died;
(10) and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me;
(11) for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.
(12) So then, the Law is HOLY, and the commandment is HOLY and RIGHTEOUS and GOOD.
(13) Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.
(14) For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.
HisGrace, that was NT showing the Law and Commandment IS (not was) HOLY and RIGHTEOUS and GOOD.
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Hebrews 12:14
Pursue peace with all men, and HOLINESS without which no one will see the Lord.
1 Peter 1:16
Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
Holiness is MANDATORY and ESENTIAL
You CAN NOT understand how Holy Yahweh Elohim IS without reading and TAKING IN Exodus and Leviticus
(Holy is used in 122 verses in those 2 books)
You CAN NOT even BEGIN to REALLY KNOW Yahweh Elohim, Y'shua without seeing - understanding - KNOWING His Holiness!!!
What Spirit is suppose to indwell and lead disciples of Y'shua?
The B]HOLY[/B] Spirit
IF the Holy Spirit dwells within a person, that person WILL desire Holiness (that's what Grace does - EMPOWERS us)
yes we WILL fail and stumble, but we get back up and pursue it even more.
I worry about the condition of one's heart and soul that so easily dismisses Y'shua's Word and Yahweh's REQUIREMENT that we be Holy as HE IS.
Posts: 1203 | From: Eagle Nest, NM | Registered: Jan 2003
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yahsway
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HisGrace, what did Jesus FREE you from. What lawlaws were you UNDER according to the Old Testament that you have been set free from?
Is is the law/laws you have been set free from to disobey, or have you been set free from the curse of disobeying such laws?
Is/Was it the laws of God that were/are sinful or is it people that are sinful?
What did Jesus's precious blood FREE you from.
From the curse of disobeying Gods laws? Or just from Gods laws in general?
What was/Is so bad about Gods laws? Was it the Laws themselves? or was it the Curse of disobeying those laws?
Is God the same Yesterday, Today, and Forever?
I just do not see how anyone could think that God's laws are bondage. Shalom
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hardcore
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Well stated HFHS.
If words in a book are mere mumbo jumbo, what does it say about the author? Is the author wrong, stupid, silly, what?
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HisGrace
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It's all about Jesus. We can't get enough lessons to show what His precious blood and the cross has freed us from. ![[Bible]](graemlins/bible.gif)
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Hisgrace: I do not understand that you say that the scriptures of Deuteronomy and Leviticus are legalistic bondage. See I dont believe that God gave the people that he loved legalistic bondage, I believe that HE gave them HIS word to live by as a schoolmaster that would teach them about HIM and point them to HIM and HIS mercy and Grace and Salvation and Provision that was eventually manifest for all the world to see in the Person of Christ. I believe that HE gave them HIs words to live by that they would know blessing and cursing and life and death and that they would choose blessing and LIFE.
I believe that the under the false teaching and bad shepherding of men who perverted and added to the word of God the law became burdensome.
I believe that the Jews had advantage over the Gentiles in that they had the oracles of God and I believe that while I am in no way as a Gentile given this scripture that I must follow it to the letter, I am given it that I can use it to understand God and His Holiness, man and His sinfulness, that I can know that God is both severe and good, merciful and just, and I can be increased in faith by seeing the extent that He went to that HIS children would know HIM, trust HIM and have faith in HIM and be blessed by HIM, not be entangeld with sin and paganism, and all manner of things that would hurt them, and that even though he provided this and gave it to HIS children He even then, made provision for the heathen that they too could live as Children of the Most High God and receive an inheritence with the children of Abraham, and that speaks to me of HIS plan and HIS mercy and HIS love for the Gentile of which I am one, thousands of years before Christ came to proclaim just that!
I believe that Jesus and Paul and the Apostles taught the oracles of God and commanded us to teach them to. There is not one word of those scriptures that do not speak something to me of Christ and of the Father God and I could never see them as legalistic bondage or legalistic mumbo jumbo as you have called them. They are the words of a loving Father given to HIS children that they could live a life of blessing in HIS presence and HIS provision until the time came that Christ was manifest, crucified, died, buried risen and ascended. Now that he is are they obsolete? Are they trash, are they abolished? No, i believe that God's word cannot be abolished, but I believe that the way that we live them has changed and there is no more need for them to serve as schoolmaster to us as they did for the Hebrews because we now have the Holy Spirit to teach us.
I believe that there is not one word in this Bible of mine that does not testify of Christ; it is all ABOUT HIM every single word, every JOT and Tittle and that makes me to have reverence for the schoolmaster that you so desire to have us believe is abolished legalistic mumbo jumbo.
It is ALL the word of GOD. And it is all given by GOD for doctrine and for instruction in righteousness as it all speaks of Christ.
That does not mean that I do not understand that we are free from bondage to sin and not under the Law of Sin and death. I understand this very well. I also understand why and how.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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hardcore
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HisGrace,
As HFHS mentioned, those comments are well known around the web. They have made the rounds. Who knows the original source at this point?
I don't fault you at all for being misled. We've probably all had that happen to us at one time or another.
But as one who has often chastised many here regarding their internet sources, maybe you should be extra careful. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
These are rhetorical questions of a carnal mind that thinks it knows everything already, but that is OK because God is not mocked and one day every knee will bow. Even those who lacking understanding did mock and those who were to prideful to get understanding.
I see this as a mockery of the devil. There is a tremendous lesson to be learnt, on how precious Jesus' sacrifice was for us to defeat the prince of this world of his crafty devices, and to free us from all of this legalistic bondage.
Getting a revelation of what it once was, I humbly have to thank Jesus for laying down his life for me to overcome God's wrathful, but necessary judgment.
John 16:33 I have told you all this so that you may have peace in me. Here on earth you will have many trials and sorrows. But take heart, because I have overcome the world."
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yahsway
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Amen and Amen HFHS,
Romans 8:6-
For to be Carnally minded is death, but to Spiritually minded is Life and Peace.
Because the Carnal mind is Enmity AGAINST God, For it IS NOT SUBJECT TO THE LAW OF GOD, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
So if one who is carnally minded is not subject to the Law of God, what does that make one who is spiritually minded? Would that make them subject to the law of God?
PS: I love your study on the Law HFHS on your other post. It certainly shows where the Veil was lifted and that Gods laws are still in effect and not done away with. Of course we know the curse (the ordiances of not obeying those laws) has been done away with such as we do not stone to death those who break them for Jesus the Christ PAID the DEBT that we all owed by His Sacrafice. Shalom
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helpforhomeschoolers
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These thoughts are common fodder on Athiest websites as well. Its not funny it is sad. It is much easier to mock than to get understanding. Laura Schlessinger is a Jew and at this point and not knowing the Messiah she cannot possibly offer adequate apologetics for these mockings,even if she could it would be pointless because these are not the questions of one who seeks understanding. These are rhetorical questions of a carnal mind that thinks it knows everything already, but that is OK because God is not mocked and one day every knee will bow. Even those who lacking understanding did mock and those who were to prideful to get understanding.
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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HisGrace
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Dr. Laura Schlessinger, a US radio personality, dispenses advice to people who call in to her Radio show. On one of her shows she said that, as an observing Orthodox Jew, homosexuality is an abomination,according to Leviticus 18:22, and cannot be condoned under any circumstance.
The following response is an open letter to Dr. Laura, penned by a US resident, which was posted on the Internet. It's funny, as well as thought-provoking.
Dear Dr. Laura:
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination... End of debate.
I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements of God's Laws and how to follow them.
1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
3. When I burn a bull on the altar of sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is, my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
4. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2. clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?
5. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an
abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination?
6.. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?
7. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?
8. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
9. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two
different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? - Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy
considerable expertise in such matters, so I am confident you can help.Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.
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