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Topic: this was the second death
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BORN AGAIN
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epouraniois,
My belief until now has been that, yes, Jesus died for the whole world since God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, plus God would like for all men be saved.
Therefore, Jesus had to die for the whole world's sins so that WHOSOEVER WILL can save themselves.
But practically, in the end Jesus will have only died for those who did in fact end up saving themselves, while the others are destroyed by the lake of fire in a second death and do not get to partake of the proffered free gift of eternal life?
God bless, BORN AGAIN ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif)
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epouraniois
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quote:
brother epouraniois, I was wondering whether you believed that since Jesus died for the whole world, that the whole world will be saved in the end?
Who then are the wicked tares who are burned in the fiery furnace so that only ashes remain of them?
Malachi 4:3
And you shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, says the LORD of hosts.
Matthew 13
41 The Son of man shall send forth His angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them who do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who has ears to hear, let him hear.
Revelation 20:12
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Revelation 20:15
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
from your post it seemed as though you currently think that all the world will eventually be saved. if that is indeed the case, how do you reconcile your position with the verses I posted about the fate of the wicked?
God bless, BORN AGAIN in the USA by the of Jeshua-Jesus of Nazareth, but born in Bethlehem of Judah [/QB]
Well, I do read He is the Saviour of the whole world, that He so loved the world, that He came to save sinners, to justify the unGodly, and on and on, not to mention Job, where the point is stressed that there is an enemy at work and the judgment in the OT, as regards the purpose for the cities of refuge, was that the priest once dead, is replaced by a new priest where judgment is pronounced, and the captive let go free.
when I read that He is the Saviour of all men, especially of those that believe, that it is those that believe who may receive the knowledge of the power of His resurrection and our being risen with Him, &c, wherein those who do not believe are to be taught later, that the Hebrews should realize the remainder of their prophecied outworkings, for every tongue shall confess, no?
1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those that believe.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire - man's work shall be burned...SUFFER LOSS...but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire...He that overcometh shall NOT BE HURT of the second death.
Judgement damnation nt
Matthew 5:21 "Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:' "
g.2920 j…krisis, a decision for or against. divine law ,judgment, accusation, condemnation, damnation.
Matthew 23:14 "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation."
G2927d… krima, (the function or effect , for or against [crime]) condemned, condemnation, damnation, judgment.
Matthew 23:33 "Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?"
d… g2920
hell g.1067 h…geenna, used figuratively as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment:-hell. H…grave. E…till the resurrection, till the age-time meets it's boundry - when the telos meets the sunteleia, the final meeting of the ages.
II Peter 2:3 "And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not."
G684 damnation …apoleia, from a presumed derivitaive of bzz; ruin or loss (phys., spiritual or eternal); - damnable (-nation), destruction , die, perdition, x perish, pernicious ways, waste.
G2919 judgment
Perdition in the NT is not generally the same as found in the OT. There is only one named to be utterly destroyed, Satan, who’s name is Death, and with Him go the grave, which is also translated hell, and pit.
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
Take it to Jesus? You don't want to answer me yourself?
I thought you were being sarcastic - maybe I was wrong. I have moved on, and am leaving it between you and the Holy Spirit whether or not you erred.
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BORN AGAIN
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Take it to Jesus? You don't want to answer me yourself?
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
BORN AGAIN had written to HisGrace: quote:
Is there now a chapter called HisGrace, perhaps near Esther?
HisGrace answered BORN AGAIN: quote:
Wow ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) - Be careful that you don't cross over into the flesh BORN AGAIN.
I was very surprised by that answer. I was wondering why you would say that.
Take it to Jesus.
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BORN AGAIN
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BORN AGAIN had written to HisGrace: quote:
Is there now a chapter called HisGrace, perhaps near Esther?
HisGrace answered BORN AGAIN: quote:
Wow - Be careful that you don't cross over into the flesh BORN AGAIN.
I was very surprised by that answer. I was wondering why you would say that. Is it because you think it is "sacrilegious", like the cartoons of Mohammed, to add your name, "HisGrace," as it were for a moment of thought, one of the Bible books?
Why does that make you say that "I am close to crossing the line into the flesh," obviously "from" the Spirit, if I am about to "cross the line into the flesh."
Uh, are you suggesting that I rarely ever speak from the flesh but am almost always speaking from the Spirit, but this time, I am about to cross the line from the Spirit back into the flesh?
I recognize that I am saved, but it is "not as if I have already attained", as Paul still said after all the work for the LORD and believing in Him Paul had done. "Forgetting those things thare are behind and pressing on toward that goal..."
Anyway, sister, what were you thinking? That it was a sacrilege to say what I said? I'd like to hear.
God bless, BORN AGAIN in the USA by the
"shine, shine, shine in a darkened world"
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
HisGrace writes quote:
On the final day of judgment all secrets will be revealed and come to light by the blazing fire of justice.
Forgive me, sister, "the blazing fire of justice," that is a new fire to me? Who, may I ask, first prophesied of this "blazing fire of justice" in the Bible, that I may read up on it?
I should know by now that one has to dot every 'i' and cross every 't' when posting on BBS.
Justice: the administration of law; the act of determining rights and assigning rewards or punishments.
Judgment: (law) the determination by a court of competent jurisdiction on matters submitted to it.
These scriptures are close enough in meaning to make my point.
Jeremiah 21:12
O house of David, thus saith the LORD; Execute judgment in the morning, and deliver him that is spoiled out of the hand of the oppressor, lest my fury go out like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings
Ezek.30:13-16 Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will also destroy the idols, and I will cause their images to cease out of Noph; and there shall be no more a prince of the land of Egypt: and I will put a fear in the land of Egypt.
And I will make Pathros desolate, and will set fire in Zoan, and will execute judgments in No. And I will pour my fury upon Sin, the strength of Egypt; and I will cut off the multitude of No. And I will set fire in Egypt: Sin shall have great pain, and No shall be rent asunder, and Noph shall have distresses daily.
Matthew 5:22
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
quote:
Is there now a chapter called HisGrace, perhaps near Esther?
Wow - Be careful that you don't cross over into the flesh BORN AGAIN.
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BORN AGAIN
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dear "heavenly", does "ouranos" not also just mean "sky" in which the birds fly?
Didn't the birds fly in the ouranois in Genesis 1 in the Greek Septuagint LXX?
brother epouraniois, I was wondering whether you believed that since Jesus died for the whole world, that the whole world will be saved in the end?
Who then are the wicked tares who are burned in the fiery furnace so that only ashes remain of them?
Malachi 4:3
And you shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, says the LORD of hosts.
Matthew 13
41 The Son of man shall send forth His angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them who do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who has ears to hear, let him hear.
Revelation 20:12
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Revelation 20:15
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
from your post it seemed as though you currently think that all the world will eventually be saved. if that is indeed the case, how do you reconcile your position with the verses I posted about the fate of the wicked?
God bless, BORN AGAIN in the USA by the of Jeshua-Jesus of Nazareth, but born in Bethlehem of Judah
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epouraniois
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quote:
Born Again
"who could live? Believers are not thrown into the lake of fire."
Seems to me that the apostle is writing to
believers when he is led to make it known
Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Eph 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
Eph 3:11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
Eph 3:12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Maybe this echos those in parable who were given talents according to their beforehand measure, wherein the one did not work out his salvation, did not meet the boundry, the proorizō, (the before horizon, or boundry set beforehand that we may walk in them - and there are none predestined *proorizō* to absolute extinction, wherein we find only one IS named to have claimed that fate for himself) instead, the one talent man buried his responcibility, thus suffering the loss of reward, for He came to save the world, to save sinners, recalling too, that Israel only has He known, and Israel only shall He punish...Amo 3:2
Joh 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
oh 4:42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Savior of the world.
Joh 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live forever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
I was thinking the plan of the ages is the redemptive plan wherein the Savior of the world worketh out all things according to the pleasure of His will, foreknowing that every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is the Lord, wherein we can add:
Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.
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BORN AGAIN
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HisGrace writes quote:
On the final day of judgment all secrets will be revealed and come to light by the blazing fire of justice.
Forgive me, sister, "the blazing fire of justice," that is a new fire to me? Who, may I ask, first prophesied of this "blazing fire of justice" in the Bible, that I may read up on it?
Is there now a chapter called HisGrace, perhaps near Esther?
God bless, your brother BORN AGAIN in the USA, by the
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
1Co 3:13
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14
If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
So what kind of "death" is this then?
Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
God bless, BORN AGAIN in the USA
On the final day of judgment all secrets will be revealed and come to light by the blazing fire of justice.
All hay, wood and stubble will be consumed , but only souls of gold and silver will live, purified of all dross.
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BORN AGAIN
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epouraniois, you write quote:
If the lake of fire destroys sinners, then who could live? and, how can we explain the following verses if they do not mean what they say?
Bearing in mind, how God says, by Holy Spirit inspired writers, speaking of those of whom only God shall punish (Amo 3:2)>>
1Co 3:13
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14
If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
I've certainly wondered what fire that was during my historical readings of those verses.
You say at the top: "If the lake of fire destroys sinners, then who could live?"
I could answer that by saying "who could live? Believers are not thrown into the lake of fire."
Until now I have been thinking that unbelievers thrown into the lake of fire will DIE because unbelievers are not spirit beings like angels.
Can spirit beings die?
Now, man does have a spirit, but the spirit simply goes back up to God, "unused", as it were.
But epouraniois, you are saying that the "lake of fire is NOT a fire that destroys, and you base that on those several Corinthian verses?
1Co 3:13
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14
If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
So what kind of "death" is this then?
Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
God bless, BORN AGAIN in the USA
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epouraniois
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recalling too, that not only is what written of the Christ, also written of His body, being chosen before the world began, and that being hid in God from generations and from ages, but now revealed, to state plainly, the inheritance of Him in the saints in light is also the very same inheritance of the one body, being holy and blameless, chosen before the foundation (overthrow) of the world
that what is written to those who were chosen since, or from, the foundation of the world is very very different than that which is written to the Hebrew tribes, different in spheres of enjoyment of their repspective inheritance, time of choosing, and types of blessings, trying the things that differ, rightly dividing the word of truth..
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epouraniois
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If the lake of fire destroys sinners, then who could live? and, how can we explain the following verses if they do not mean what they say?
Bearing in mind, how God says, by Holy Spirit inspired writers, speaking of those of whom only God shall punish (Amo 3:2)>>
1Co 3:13
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14
If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
Indeed, how can hell be cast into hell? quote:
Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
BORN AGAIN
Body and soul were separated in the first death. Now body and soul are being rejoined to be cast into the lake of fire for eternal separaton from God.
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BORN AGAIN
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HisGrace writes quote:
The Bible often refers to death as meaning to go to hell.
I don't know about that. The Bible is pretty specific in its use of hades, gehenna, and tartaros.
Indeed, how can hell be cast into hell? quote:
Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
BORN AGAIN
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
HisGrace writes quote:
The first death was the physical death - the second is the spiritual death of sinners.
If you believe in a bodily resurrection for believers and unbelievers, on what then do you base your statement that the second death is a "spiritual" death?
God bless, BORN AGAIN
The Bible often refers to death as meaning to go to hell. As we see in Rev. 21:8, sinners will be eternally damned. Believers won't be sentenced to a second death(hell), but will live eternally.
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BORN AGAIN
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Revelation 2:11
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches; He who overcomes shall not be hurt of the second death.
Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection: on such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
HisGrace writes quote:
The first death was the physical death - the second is the spiritual death of sinners.
If you believe in a bodily resurrection for believers and unbelievers, on what then do you base your statement that the second death is a "spiritual" death?
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
If this was the second death, what was the first death? ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
The first death was the physical death - the second is the spiritual death of sinners.
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BORN AGAIN
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Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
If this was the second death, what was the first death?
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