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Topic: when did this take place in Job 1?
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epouraniois
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posted
From the very very first Lucifer had dominion over the earth, that has never been removed from him, (God does not take back what He gives):
Eze 28:11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Eze 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Well, then where is his discusting face? Paul and the Lord Jesus Christ both wrote of him shewing himself when he gets here, claiming that and showing that he is God. Where is he?
But I just don't believe that the sixth trumpet has occured just yet, that when it does, Satan will be on the earth defacto, not just in spirit - but in flesh and bone, as the two angels who brought Lot out of that sinful place.
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BORN AGAIN
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(Revelation 12:10)
Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night.
I would use that same verse differently, namely apply it to when Jesus who the builders rejected became the new corner stone--Jesus took over the administratin of the kingd of God. That's why it's also called the "kingdom of heaven" because that is where Jesus is currently ruling the church from.
(Revelation 12:10)
Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come {snip}
Salvation has already come.
The kingdom of our God has already come.
The power of God already came at Pentecost.
The authority of His Christ has already come.
Therefore, I conclude that Lucifer-Satan's disgusting face was cast out of heaven when the Lord Jeshua-Jesus was glorified and began to rule the church from heaven.
Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night.
At that point, when Jesus was glorified, Lucifer's disgusting face was thrown down to the earth, not to be seen again in heaven; king Lucifer-Satan is still ruling on earth, but he knows his time is short.
What time? To acquire the Prince's throne in the holy oblation of land by Jerusalem: "It is for the Prince." That time is short. Notice that Lucifer created Islam has his counter-religion around 630 A.D., or about 600 years after Lucifer was cast permanently to earth.
God bless, ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif) BORN AGAIN in the USA
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wparr
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(Revelation 12:10)
Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night.
satan STILL has access to heaven and God, he's still there accusing us day and night.
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WKUHilltopper
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This has been a very interesting exchange! Thanks!
Can anyone recommend other christian message boards that engage in intelligent christian thought (rather than bashing like there are on some boards)?
Posts: 259 | From: KY | Registered: Feb 2006
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epouraniois
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quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
epouraniois writes: "Additionally, Satan was on the earth long before A.D. 70."
Yes, I realize that. But when would you say he was excluded from heaven, if indeed he was excluded from heaven?
epouraniois, when Job said that the "sons of God came to present themselves before God", where did that take place in your opinion?
I think it took place in heaven, so that Lucifer-Satan still had access to heaven.
Does Satan still have access to heaven IYO?
God bless, BORN AGAIN in the USA by the of Lord God Jeshua-Jesus of Nazareth, who was born in in Bethlehem of Judah, as Micah 5:2 said ("...just fishin'...") ![[Bible]](graemlins/bible.gif)
I think the reference of Job38 speaks to the heavens before the overthrow (katabole), before this limited heaven (firmament) was stretched forth as a garment - remember the rent, garment, and the pleroma of Mat 9:16? -
while we can place Job about here:
Gen 46:13 And the sons of Issachar; Tola, and Phuvah, and Job, after the overthrow -
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. 'epouranios places' = heavenly places-
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Paul writes that Satan is the prince of the authority of the air, and the word used for Satan as said prince, is 'archē', which loosely means the beginning position, or first place of position, being set against the Lord and Saviour Christ Jesus, who in His time shall show who is the only potentate, and the Lord used the word when describing the magistrates in the temple, and in Joh 8:44 saying of the pharisees that they were of their father the devil, and the lusts of their father they will do, he is a liar from the 'archē' and the father of, therefore they who Christ spake to, do not believe the Lord's truth.
Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in age long chains...
6th trump:
Rev 9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.
Rev 9:12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.
Rev 9:13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
Rev 9:14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet...
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
How short, well, we can easily extrat a five month time period after the star falls from heaven and is given a key to the abyss in Rev. 9? at the 5th trump, wherein Satan is afterwards cast down to the earth at the 6th trump-
-after a war in the heavens, not a war on the earth-
-Which could not occur till Israel became a nation again, having been gathered by He who scattered them, 1948?, ...'learn' a parable of the fig...Mat24, with John 8.44 speaking of the 'naughty figs' of Jer. whom the Lord said of them, the scribes and pharisees (nephilins) sit in Moses' seat (seat of authority - Ezr 2:62, Neh 7:5,7:64)
Being that Satan is the prince of the authority of the air, the word 'air' not being the kind we breath, the kind which addresses the resurrection body of 4 Thess17?, we have no refference that Satan is phyically on earth, however we do read that Satan makes his ministers to be transformed as the ministers of righteousnes, which is expounded upon in the prison epistles, showing that it is in the heavenly places where this first in position, Satan, and his governments (thrones/dominions) are now being held, supporting also -
- 'high (heavenly) places' of Eph 6
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience (the sons of the fathers=Hebrew tribes)
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BORN AGAIN
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epouraniois writes: "Additionally, Satan was on the earth long before A.D. 70."
Yes, I realize that. But when would you say he was excluded from heaven, if indeed he was excluded from heaven?
epouraniois, when Job said that the "sons of God came to present themselves before God", where did that take place in your opinion?
I think it took place in heaven, so that Lucifer-Satan still had access to heaven.
Does Satan still have access to heaven IYO?
God bless, BORN AGAIN in the USA by the of Lord God Jeshua-Jesus of Nazareth, who was born in in Bethlehem of Judah, as Micah 5:2 said ("...just fishin'...")
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epouraniois
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Just to add a couple of notes on 'the sons of God' - angels are called "sons of God" in every other place where the expression is used in the Old Testament - Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7. Ps. 29:1; 89:6. Dan. 3:25 (no art.) - We have no authority or right to take the expression in Gen. 6:2, 4 in any other sense - Moreover, in Gen. 6:2 the Sept. renders it "angels".
Angels are called "spirits" (Ps. 104:4. Heb. 1:7, 14), for spirits are created by God.
That there was a fall of the angels is certain from Jude 6.
The nature of their fall is clearly stated in the same verse. They left their own oijkhthvrion (oiketerion). This word occurs only in 2Cor. 5:2 and Jude 6, where it is used of the spiritual (or resurrection) house (body).
Additionally, Satan was on the earth long before A.D. 70:
Mat 4:8
Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and showeth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
-but is now held bodily captive until
2Th 2:7
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
And we know what Satan will do when he is on earth defacto, which will not be until the 6th trump (according to Rev.)
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BORN AGAIN
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Why around 70 A.D.? Actually probably a bit earlier, at the ascension of Jesus. It seems to me that once Jesus had suffered on the cross and was resurrected and glorified, that at that point Lucifer-Satan's disgusting face would no longer be tolerated in heaven and after Jesus's glorification, Lucifer-Satan would have to make do without any further "meetings".
Since the time when Jesus took over the administration of the kingdom of God in the 1st century A.D., there were two kingdoms on earth. One kingdom run by Jesus from heaven, and one kingdom run by Lucifer-Satan from earth.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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WKUHilltopper
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quote:
Where did this meeting with the LORD take place? Did this meeting take place in heaven or on earth?
I don't believe the Scriptures make this clear. I'd be interested in seeing if you come up with something. My take on it is that the Lord commanded Satan's presence. My guess is that this was not in heaven. And I would suspect this was not a "face to face" meeting as Satan was already physically separated from God.
While Satan was a "good guy" in the early creation of the Garden of Eden (remember when all 6 days were created, all things were good), he may have very well had free access to heaven. This would have changed until he was punished by "causing" Adam and Eve to fall--and it would make sense that this would have been the time of Satan's removal. When this exactly happened, again, this isn't clear.
quote:
Regarding the second bolded part, "Since Satan was "kicked" out of heaven", on what do you base the idea that Satan was "kicked" out of heaven when Job lived on earth? Let's say that Job lived around 2,000 B.C.
That's way after Lucifer-Satan talked to Eve in the garden of Eden on earth through the mouth of a serpent.
No, I think it is implied after the fall of man as referenced by God's admonishment in Gen 3:15.
quote:
I have thought in the past that Lucifer-Satan fell like lightening from heaven around 70 A.D., when the Lord God Jeshua-Jesus went back up to heaven as the new Lord or Administrator of the kingdom of God.
Interesting...why 70 AD? When I read Luke 10:18 (And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.) I don't get a sense of a time frame. Since Christ "has always been" this would imply to to me that it occurred at least after the sixth day of creation--probably at the successful temptation of Adam and Eve. And since Christ has always been, he would have witnessed the event regardless of "time frame".
quote:
And from walking "to and from on the earth", Lucifer-Satan is apparently able to be "in the presence of the sons of God" who have "come to present themselves before the LORD
You could interpret "presence" as not necessarily physical. Much like God made his presence to Moses, but not physically nor brought Moses to heaven for a "meeting". Much in the same way I can be present at a meeting, but not physically--but via a conference call. I'm guessing part of the punishment, at this point, to Satan is a physical separation from God. Satan has first hand experience of the love of God. Now it has forever been withdrawn and that must be painful and further angers Satan against us--because we still have hope.
By bringing Satan "present" back into God's Kingdom may give Satan a brief pleasure, much like the rich man asking Abraham for a drop of water on his tongue--and that would be outside of God's punishment. Just a brief respite from the separation from God must be better than none. So from that sense, it's hard for me to imagine that Satan was present before God physically in heaven. Thus, my assumption is Satan is barred from entering heaven. But this is purely just my conjecture.
Posts: 259 | From: KY | Registered: Feb 2006
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BORN AGAIN
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WKUHilltopper, you write quote:
Job 1
6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
You added: quote:
I think this means it was required and demanded of Satan to appear before the Lord. Kinda like being called into the Boss' office. They came to "present themselves" to the boss because they were required to do so.
Since Satan was "kicked" out of heaven, it would seem inconceivable that he would still have free access. I could be wrong, of course. But I can't imagine this as the case. {bold by BORN AGAIN}
Regarding the first bolded part, "it was required and demanded of Satan to appear before the Lord. Kinda like being called into the Boss' office", are you saying that this occurred in heaven, or not?
Regarding the second bolded part, "Since Satan was "kicked" out of heaven", on what do you base the idea that Satan was "kicked" out of heaven when Job lived on earth? Let's say that Job lived around 2,000 B.C.
That's way after Lucifer-Satan talked to Eve in the garden of Eden on earth through the mouth of a serpent.
Job lived long after Eve, and at the time of Job, the Bible says that Lucifer-Satan was "walking to and from on the earth".
And from walking "to and from on the earth", Lucifer-Satan is apparently able to be "in the presence of the sons of God" who have "come to present themselves before the LORD": quote:
Job 1
6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
7 And the LORD said to Satan, Where do you come from? Then Satan answered the LORD, "From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it."
Where did this meeting with the LORD take place? Did this meeting take place in heaven or on earth?
If in heaven, then Lucifer-Satan unquestionably went from "walking to and from on the earth" to heaven if the meeting took place in heaven, right?
Was Lucifer-Satan "kicked out" of heaven?
Are you basing that on this? quote:
Revelation 12:12
Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has but a short time.
I have thought in the past that Lucifer-Satan fell like lightening from heaven around 70 A.D., when the Lord God Jeshua-Jesus went back up to heaven as the new Lord or Administrator of the kingdom of God.
And when the Son returned to heaven, Lucifer-Satan was kicked out permanently to earth, and Lucifer-Satan knew what that meant. The last days were starting to determine who would be Prince of the holy oblation next to Jerusalem.
But prior to the arrival of the Lord God Jeshua-Jesus from earth into heaven, Lucifer-Satan apparently had access to the Creator of heaven and earth as Lord or owner of the earth, and so there was a meeting in Job's time, when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Lucifer-Satan accordingly also came among them.
So far so good. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) ![[clap2]](graemlins/clap2.gif)
With love, BORN AGAIN
"watch and pray, till you see Him coming through the clouds"
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WKUHilltopper
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quote:
Job 1
6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
I think this means it was requred and demanded of Satan to appear before the Lord. Kinda like being called into the Boss' office. They came to "present themselves" to the boss because they were required to do so.
Since Satan was "kicked" out of heaven, it would seem inconceivable that he would still have free access. I could be wrong, of course. But I can't imagine this as the case.
Posts: 259 | From: KY | Registered: Feb 2006
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BORN AGAIN
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WKUHilltopper writes quote:
Don't think this means Satan has access to heaven. {snip} The scripture says "From going to and fro in the earth". I'm thinking this is something like point A and point B somewhere on earth, not from earth to heaven and vice versa.
Yes, I realize that the "to and fro" is from point A to point B on the earth.
But it says that Satan came in the presence of God with the sons of God from or after "walking to and fro on the earth", which presumably means Satan was able to return to heaven if Satan wanted to?
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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WKUHilltopper
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Don't think this means Satan has access to heaven. Not sure if he can after the fall. The scripture says "From going to and fro in the earth". I'm thinking this is something like point A and point B somewhere on earth, not from earth to heaven and vice versa.
If Jesus "always was", then it's logical for Him to have witnessed this falling and, thus, validates the statement "I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven".
My hunch that God permits no evil in heaven and because of Satan's fall is barred from entering ever since.
Posts: 259 | From: KY | Registered: Feb 2006
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BORN AGAIN
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Job 1
6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
Question: who are the sons of God?
7 And the LORD said to Satan, Where do you come from? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
Jesus had said,
Luke 10:18
And he {Jesus} said to them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
And also, Satan was present in the garden of Eden where he talked through a serpent to Eve.
But clearly, if the "sons of God" refers to "angels", then since Satan was "going to and fro in the earth" in the days of Job, which is much later than Eve, then Satan was able to go back into heaven at will?
And if that be the case, can Lucifer-Satan "still" go back and forth into heaven and "be among the sons of God", or not?
God bless, BORN AGAIN in the USA
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