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Topic: on one day the Jews could avenge themselves
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epouraniois
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How do explain that God will take up His chcsen people in the earth who have the promise and the earthly blessings, that they fulfill all that is written of them, which happens to be quite the most of their destiny, being fulfilled upon their inheritance?
and how that is so totally not what is written to the church which was introduced the mystery, intorduced to a heavenly calling, and adopted into the beloved, an entirely seperate called out group called 'His body', who does not have any earthly inheritance, and told to not set the mind upon earthly things, 'for our conversation (***) is in heaven-
God has made the many distinctions, using the words 'inheritance', 'adoption', 'hope' and 'calling', all referencing specific doctrines and spheres of blessings, and until someone can show me a different doctrine, in the Bible, where non Israelites are given the title "Israel", then I shall let the Lord direct my paths, cutting straight the word of God betwix that which differs:
* Orthotomeo, ‘To rightly divide’.
* Temno, ‘to cut’, does not occur in the New Testament but several combinations of the word are found.
* ‘Sharper’, Tomoteros. ‘Sharper than a two-edged sword’ (Heb. 4:12).
* ‘Sharply’, Apotomos. ‘Rebuke them sharply’ (Tit. 1 13).
* Peritemno and peritome refer to circumcision, and there is no need to stress the literal meaning of either the Greek or the English. The word finds its place in our own language, and in such surgical expressions as anatomy, tracheotomy, and phlebotomy, the primary meaning of cutting is retained unaltered.
2 Timothy 2:15, ‘study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth’.
This verse divides naturally into three parts:
1. The approval of God.
2. The unashamed workman.
3. The essential principle of interpretation.
With this evidence before him, the reader will need no refutation of the many suggestions put forward as translations, such as ‘handling aright the Word of Truth’. Again, there is no possibility of mistaking what was to be rightly divided. It was not the believer’s conduct or service or anything to do with himself, but the ‘Word of Truth’. Just as Timothy was subsequently exhorted to ‘preach’ the Word, so is he here commanded to ‘divide’ the Word aright.
*** G4175
πολίτευμα
politeuma
pol-it'-yoo-mah
From G4176; a community, that is, (abstractly) citizenship (figuratively): - conversation.
One glorious result of ‘rightly dividing the word of truth’ is that every statement of God may be taken without alteration. For instance, in the case of the promise, ‘the meek shall inherit the earth’, a rightly divided word has no need to substitute ‘heaven’ for ‘earth’.
‘Let us heed this word of exhortation. If we are not occupied with that part of God’s purpose which has a present application, we shall most certainly be ashamed of our work. In other words, whether found in Genesis, Romans, Ephesians or the Revelation, "Dispensational Truth" is all the truth there is’.
Happy is the workman who, though suffering under the disapproval of tradition, is approved unto God; that workman who will have no need to be ashamed of his work, because he has obeyed the great all-covering principle of interpretation - ‘Rightly dividing the Word of Truth’.
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BORN AGAIN
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James or Peter said that Paul had written "some things which are hard to understand", and that may be the case here.
howbeit, you write quote:
These are speaking of joint and fellow partakers, where all are equal, the language is clear that the two made one was not a further grafting into Israel, where Israel is preiminent, receiving Israel's blessings, but rather speaks to blessings far above all heavens where Christ sitteth at the right hand of God {bold by BORN AGAIN}
i agree that of the two was a third kind of man, a bornagain man, made, being neither Jew (Israelite) nor Gentile but a new creation.
In that new creation, Israel is indeed not preeminent and is equal with the Gentile believer in all things. However, it has pleased God to retain the name of Israel for His people and for His kingdom:
Genesis 48:16
{Jacob-Israel said}, The Angel who redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.
Galatians 6:16
And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
So it is not that Israel is preeminent for both Israel and the Gentile have together been made into a third kind of man, a bornagain kind of man, having "made of the two one new man".
But they did retain the name Israel. Old Israel will join the church Israel of God and will inherit the same eternal blessings, forgiveness of sins, a new heart, God's spirit put in, be My people, I will be there God, all of what the church Israel of God now has, a third kind of man, a bornagain kind of man. They will join us, not we them.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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epouraniois
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quote:
Okay, this is where you and I differ right now. From Old National Israel/Judah were harvested a certain quantity of Israelites/Jews. These entered the church of God.
I think we have to allow God to divide where and what and whom He has divided, not leaning onto our own understanding, including all the words in all the verses, acknowledging God has placed them in just the right order and place for our learning. I guess I just feel like there are alot of verses which need to be allowed to reside in the given contexts according to whom which things were written. I am still comtemplating posting studies on Ephesians, because after studying the epistle hundreds of times, its depths are richer and deeper than anything written before hand, and its hieghts reaching further and higher than anything dreamed of or considered by Israel:
2Ti 1:15 This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me
but during the Acts they desired to hear the word spoken to them, even though the gentiles had no blessings apart from siting at Israel's table, afterwards, they all turned away.
Paul writes:
Phi 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
Phi 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Phi 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Phi 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection (exanastasis) of the dead.
Phi 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Phi 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
Does not the Bible deliniate three adopted and called out companies, wherein one is called the church, and each having seperate spheres of blessings, according to the adoption which He purposed, some chosen before the foundation of the world, some chosen afterwards???
Wherein the revelation of the mystery makes manifest that the church which is His body is a newe creation (G2936 κτίζω ktizō), which is not written to Israel, but specifically written to:
Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Eph 2:13 But now...
These are speaking of joint and fellow partakers, where all are equal, the language is clear that the two made one was not a further grafting into Israel, where Israel is preiminent, receiving Israel's blessings, but rather speaks to blessings far above all heavens where Christ sitteth at the right hand of God-
-Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby
Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints,
Upon the revelation of the mystery, Abraham and the blessings of Israel are no longer mentioned, and the instruction towards the one body is to know the power of His resurrection, for we are reckoned as dead to the things of this world, for our citezinship is in heaven, not on the earth, yet, Israel shall receive her inheritance as per Jer.31.31 &c, &c.
Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfill (complete-plēroō) the word of God.
Christ was clear, He did not tell them all things, but would send the spirit of truth who would reveal all things, giving further instuction,
so
what are we to do, just ignore the instruction given afterwards, trading the 'but now' for that which belongs to God's other children?
Intimating that resurrection power of which the apostle speaks, is the acknowledgment that I am dead, for my life is hid with Christ in God, that when He manifest, the church body will manifest with Him in Glory. Imediately thereafter will He come to the earth.
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BORN AGAIN
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"heavenly" epouranious, you write in your simpler explanation quote:
After Israel takes her place amidst the nations at the end of Acts, the apostle is given a revelation which had been a secret, but is now revealed to the church, not to the churches. This is a new creation according to the words being employed by the Holy Spirit in Ephesians 2, where there are no more distinctions, breaking down all fleshly barriers, where race, nationality, or anything having to do with the fleshly realm finds no place, and when our feet are shod with the Gospel armor
Okay, this is where you and I differ right now. From Old National Israel/Judah were harvested a certain quantity of Israelites/Jews. These entered the church of God.
The spaces vacated by the unwilling majority of Israelites/Jews were filled in by grafted-in Gentile believers; together they became the church.
The church was a new creation, neither Jew nor Gentile, but a third kind of man, a bornagain man, with the Holy Spirit within.
In the meantime, the unbelieving majority of Israelites/Ephraim of 721 B.C. and of Israelites/Jews of 70 A.D. were mixed in among the heathen nations. They still have a destiny, but not now.
The glorification of the church into a bornagain kind of man was intended for all Old National Israel, but for now only a part was able to make it in.
In the future, both the house of Israel and the house of Judah will become "ammi" or "my people" and "ruhamah" or "having found mercy" again, and then they will join the church as believers by the forgiving mercy and power of God, the LORD God will forgive all their trespasses and bring them into the bornagain kingdom, and Israel/Ephraim and Israel/Judah will join and be equal to the church.
My one question with the above scenario is, since the Gentiles are not part of the tribes of Israel, but could be considered adopted into the tribes of Israel, like Jacob did with Manasseh and Ephraim, and as such perhaps would the Gentiles be equally spread as proselytes to the faith among the 12 tribes of Israel in Ezekiel 48?
epouraniois, you say "heavenly places" is something diff than what Abram got in Gen.12? can you be more specific what Abram got in Gen.12?
To me it's one continuum though, we are the new Israel of God while the unbelieving Old National part of Israel is currently among the nations. What the church currently has is what all of Old Israel would have had, had all Israel wanted to join up. But that was not the case. Gentiles took their place and with the believing Israelites, the Gentiles and the Israelites moved up into the next phase of the kingdom of God. Not something separate; but the next phase of the kingdom of God.
God bless, BORN AGAIN ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif)
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epouraniois
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Hi Born Again,
To attempt a simplification, earth and far above all heavens (heavenly places) are not the same places, they are different places. That the Lord rose above all heavens declares that the heavenly places are real, and one of God's companies, called the church, are chosen into an adoption being blessed there, in heavenly places. This is a different blessing than that which is given to Abraham in Gen.12, reinforced in Jer. 31, &c.
Different groups are given different inheritances, each being qualified with specific terms given by the Holy Spirit.
After Israel takes her place amidst the nations at the end of Acts, the apostle is given a revelation which had been a secret, but is now revealed to the church, not to the churches. This is a new creation according to the words being employeed by the Holy Spirit in Ephesians 2, where there are no more distinctions, breaking down all fleshly barriers, where race, nationality, or anything having to do with the fleshly realm finds no place, and when our feet are shod with the Gospel armour, reflecting on Christs' words, that His kingdom is not of this world, how much more then, are the members of His Body reconciled to manifest with Him where He is, and called to be risen and to understand what is the power of His resurrection, to which we are called in one body, for not only has peace been made, but it has been made known - and how.
Only the church revealed as the one body is instructed to try the things that differ, and rightly divide the word of truth, and we find these instructions amidst the epistles which the Holy Spirit instructed the apostle to make it known that it is this good deposit of the revealation of the mystery which completes the word of God.
It figures then, that if some have blessings in heavenly places, and some have blessings in the earth, while others have blessings in New Jerusalem, that this is the very reason we are given to know why there are also three adoptions in the Bible, corresponding to these three spheres of blessings, that Christ might fill all things, both in heaven and in earth - which was never revealed until after Paul became a prison of Jesus Christ for the nations.
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BORN AGAIN
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brother epouraniois writes to BORN AGAIN quote:
Have you considered the difference in the message given to the one body, against that of the future ressurection in and of the earth?
I'm sorry to admit that for now, when you go there, I don't understand a bit of it.
But just because I don't understand it doesn't mean it is not true. You've said things before that have caused me to think.
I'm still fond of your 18-year use of the Gentiles to "provoke Israel to jealousy", that was a good one that I had never heard before but definitely is plausible. It struck a chord.
But the blessings for so-and-so and not for joe-and-joe, I do not understand at this time. But I do acknowledge that you seem to have a brilliant mind and an amazing grasp and knowledge and memory of the Bible. So, who knows what you are saying may be true, but I cannot grasp it from what you have presented thus far. And I am probably not alone in that on this CBBS.
God bless, BORN AGAIN in the USA by the of the Lord God Jeshua-Jesus.
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epouraniois
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Born Again wrote:
"When the Lord God Jeshua-Jesus comes again and sets His foot on the mount of Olives, and all His saints are with him, will Christians not have a day like the day the Jews had in Esther’s day? I think so."
Have you considered the difference in the message given to the one body, against that of the future ressurection in and of the earth?
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Col 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
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BORN AGAIN
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The king decreedd that on one day only, the Jews could destroy all those who would have assaulted them, the Jews' enemies and those who hated them.
Esther 8:11-13 King James Version (KJV)
11 Wherein dthe king granted the Jews which were in every city to gather themselves together, and to stand for their life, to destroy, to slay and to cause to perish, all the power of the people and province who would have assaulted them, both little ones and women, and to take the spoil of them for a prey.
(BORN AGAIN here: does that not sound like what will happen to Christians too?}
12 Upon one day in all the provinces of king Ahasuerus, namely, upon the 13th day of the 12th month, which is the month Adar.
13The copy of the writing for a commandment to be given in every province was published unto all people, and that the Jews should be ready against that day to avenge themselves on their enemies.
When the Lord God Jeshua-Jesus comes again and sets His foot on the mount of Olives, and all His saints are with him, will Christians not have a day like the day the Jews had in Esther’s day? I think so.
God bless, BORN AGAIN in the USA by the of Jesus
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