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Topic: Made it a thread - helpforhomeschoolers
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epouraniois
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quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
dear brother epouraniois, thank you for parepidemos, definitely not ethnoi. got it. what i know of language, it sounds like the Australian "walk abouts".
Did Peter preach something different to the "parepidemos" Jews than Paul preached to the Gentiles?
God bless, BORN AGAIN ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif)
The same thing, different points of view. To the Jew it was aways preached that they were to be the channel to go out and bring the nations to the knowledge of the Lord. The Jews, of necessity, must needs be made whole first, while the gentiles were being instructed that they had no part of Israel's carnal things, and were subserviant to them, they would be led to the Lord, not of themselves, not by the Lord, but by the Jews.
Because of the failure of the Jews to receive the kingdom and the King, the gentiles become overcomers to the same sphere of blessings as the Jews, but cannot usurp the preistly position which was by covenant.
Again, had the Jews received the kingdom, those gentiles would have never been brought in to the Heavenly Jerusalem. The tree, however, was already flageling and bordering on hopelessness, as can be seen by comparing Peter's first miracle with Paul's.
Remember too, that Paul had been preaching for some nine years before going forth unto the gentiles, but even then, it was always to the Jew first for the hope of Israel, his flesh and blood, of whom Paul very much loved, so much, he wished himself accursed of Christ that they might overcome. Sort of reminds me of Job praying to be in hell till the day of redemption.
Even at the last hour Paul had hoped his people would receive the truth, but they divorced, they reasoned amoung themselves, never a good thing, for it is best to stay close to Scripture.
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BORN AGAIN
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dear brother epouraniois, thank you for parepidemos, definitely not ethnoi. got it. what i know of language, it sounds like the Australian "walk abouts".
Did Peter preach something different to the "parepidemos" Jews than Paul preached to the Gentiles?
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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epouraniois
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quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered...
This word "strangers" is, what? Something other than ethnoi?
thanks, BORN AGAIN
Nah, these strangers are the Jews scattered abroad:
Strangers:
G3927
παρεπίδημος
parepidēmos
par-ep-id'-ay-mos
From G3844 and the base of G1927; an alien alongside, that is, a resident foreigner: - pilgrim, stranger.
Scattered throughout:
G1290
διασπορά
diaspora
dee-as-por-ah'
From G1289; dispersion, that is, (specifically and concretely) the (converted) Israelites resident in Gentile countries: - (which are) scattered (abroad).
These are the same Jews who make the anual Feasts yearly, returning to their homeTemple. They are strangers because they are aliens in the lands they are scattered unto. Peter is also writing to the proselyte just as in Acts 2, 3, &c, &c, as a proselyte is a gentile convert who comes under the full burden of the law, circumcision, feasts, sabbaths, becomes a Jew.
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BORN AGAIN
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1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered...
This word "strangers" is, what? Something other than ethnoi?
thanks, BORN AGAIN
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epouraniois
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I was using the term as it relates to the then alive overcomers, of which too, Rev 1:6 Rev 5:10 and Rev 20:6 speaks of the overcomers out of every tribe in Rev.7, all being priests, as does Peter during the Acts:
1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light:
Remember that Peter is writing to the diaspora, the same as James:
1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered...
It seems then that even this takes on a peculiar dispensational flavor.
And as we become more familiar to the differences, as we are instructed to try the things that differ, it becomes every more obvious that the church has little in common with any of the other callings behyond the fact that sinners are saved by the blood of Christ, the work on the tree, and the power of His resurrection. Most everything else is different.
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BORN AGAIN
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epouraniois, thanks for everything thus far. I wanted to ask about this statement of yours:
quote:
The gentiles will never be priests, that is covenanted to Israel.
In Ezekiel 48 it states that the Zadok Levites will be priests who minister to the Lord:
Ezekiel 48
9 The oblation {of land} that ye shall offer unto the LORD shall be of five and twenty thousand in length, and of ten thousand in breadth.
10 And for them, even for the priests, shall be this holy oblation; toward the north 25,000 in length, and toward the west 10,000, and toward the east 10,000in breadth, and toward the south 25,000 in length: and the sanctuary of the LORD shall be in the midst thereof.
11 It shall be for the priests that are sanctified of the sons of Zadok; which have kept my charge, which went not astray when the children of Israel went astray, as the Levites went astray.
If the sons of Zadok are to be the priests of the holy oblation, how say ye that Israel shall be priests?
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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epouraniois
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It may be the necessary point we have reached, to now undertake the meaning and spheres of the 'adoption' wherein the various callings have set their hope unto.
This word ‘adoption’ is the translation of the Greek huiothesia, a word composed of huios ‘a son’ and thesis ‘to place, or constitute’. The word is used only by Paul in the New Testament and occurs five times as follows:
Rom. 8:15.
Ye have received the spirit of adoption.
Rom. 8:23.
Waiting for the adoption.
Rom. 9:4.
To whom pertaineth the adoption.
Gal. 4:5.
That we might receive the adoption of sons.
Eph. 1:5.
Unto the adoption of children.
The Three Spheres Of Blessings of which belong the adoptions:
(1) ‘The earth’ (Matt. 5:5) The Kingdom
(2) ‘Jerusalem which is above’ (Gal. 4:26) The Bride
(3) ‘In heavenly places’ (Eph. 1:3) The Body
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epouraniois
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quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
I'm still vague on the 18-year Gentiles who did believe. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) What did you say happened to them?
And what happened (please keep it staccato brief) to the believers at Pentecost in Acts 2? Where are they and to what do they belong?
BORN AGAIN
All Acts period believers were and are overcomers. The gentiles will never be priests, that is covenanted to Israel. The gentiles do have though, the same overcoming destination as the overcomers listed in Hebrews 11, and the sphere of their blessing is New Jerusalem after all things are made new and the former things are past away.
If Israel had received her kingdom at that time, then these same gentile overcomers would have no part with Israel, but would have been an example of Israel's going forth healing the nations, but she first had to begin at home but did not.
Therefore it is written that those gentiles were made partakers of Israel's spiritual things, i.e., New Jerusalem.
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epouraniois
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In the prison ministry the apostle tells us what is the inheritance of Christ. And this is the destination of every member of His body, the church.
Eph 1:18
The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints.
Christs' inheritance is the saints in the light. Well, that is also the inheritance of the church, His body. How about that?
Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son, (the RV reads 'the Son of His Love').
Col 3:23 And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;
Col 3:24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance; for ye serve the Lord Christ.
So closely is the head to the body, that is, the head of Christ to His own body, that the church and Christ are made one, and are both necessary for the unity and the oneness:
Eph 4:3 Endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
At the present time then, two things are definately happening. God is building up His body for the heavenly spheres (Eph. 3. 9-10; 4. 14), and Satan is building up his kingdom here on earth preaching lies and using the Scriptures to keep the kingdoms and the doctrines mixed up so that few come to the unity of the faith, wherefore we are to remember:
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
2Ti 1:13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
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BORN AGAIN
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I'm still vague on the 18-year Gentiles who did believe. What did you say happened to them?
And what happened (please keep it staccato brief) to the believers at Pentecost in Acts 2? Where are they and to what do they belong?
BORN AGAIN
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BORN AGAIN
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quote:
They are perfectly safe in the calling into which they were called, and cannot be judged otherwise.
When you say "they" you are referring to those of the Acts period?
And...the Acts period ends in 62 A.D.?
BORN AGAIN
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epouraniois
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Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Chris
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus
Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Col 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
This is the out resurrection, to appear with Christ when He appears. Right now, He is hid in God. But when He manifest, His body is united with Him.
WITH
G4862
σύν
sun
soon
A primary preposition denoting union; with or together (but much closer than G3326 or G3844), that is, by association, companionship, process, resemblance, possession, instrumentality, addition, etc.: - beside, with. In compounds it has similar applications, including completeness.
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epouraniois
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quote:
Born Again
Are you saying the part of the church which believed AFTER Acts does not have overcoming faith and its members are subject to "instruction during the 1,000-year period"?
No. The Bible doesn't speak of any church until after Acts. In order for the members of this church to be overcomers, they must set aside the lies and fiery darts of the wicked one and overcome as a member of the one body. The church here then, is not being built upon the earth, although the members of the church are experimentally working out their salvation with fear and trembling, guarding the unity of the Spirit in the bond of the peace which was created in this one new man.
The overcomers are looking to know, now, the power of His resurrection to the intent that we might attain unto the out resurrection out from amoung the dead, pressing on to the high calling of God, warning every man...
One cannot overcome into a lie, or into any denominational deceipt anymore after Acts 28:28 as they could before Acts 28:28.
I don't think anyone can be half an overcomer.
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epouraniois
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Thre are a couple of points which must be maintained in the forefront of our minds when dealing with so great a questions as to what happened then. In Romans 4:4,5 we find that in order to receive the justification in the life of any believer -
‘Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness’.
- and that this is non dispensational. It is only by faith we receive His truth in the flesh, and therefore, Him that justify the ungodly.
What does Ephesians teach?:
‘For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast’ (Eph. 2:8,9).
Here the general trend is identical:
‘Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith’ (Rom. 3:27).
If one should say that the omission of the word ‘justify’ or ‘righteousness’ from Ephesians 2 renders it unfit as a true parallel, we may turn to Philippians 3. There the apostle expresses the desire:
‘Be found in Him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by (through) faith’ (Phil. 3:9).
This passage is explicit. It practically sums up Romans 3:21,22:
‘But now the righteousness of God without the law ... even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ’.
This righteousness moreover is the breastplate in the ‘armour of God’ (Eph. 6:14).
It will be seen that while Romans is the great doctrine of justification by faith, that where Romans leaves off, the newly created body of Christ begins.
So those of the Acts period are pronounced:
* ‘We, that are dead to sin’ (Rom. 6:2).
* ‘He died unto sin’ (Rom. 6:10).
* ‘Dead indeed unto sin’ (Rom. 6:11).
* ‘Dead to the law’ (Rom. 7:4; Gal. 2:19).
* ‘Dead to sins’ (1 Pet. 2:24).
They are perfectly safe in the calling into which they were called, and cannot be judged otherwise.
The outer teaching of Romans is covered by the gospel; the inner teaching of Romans (viz. 5:12 to 8:39) is covered by the mystery of Israel’s blindness. This explains the preaching of the gospel to the Gentiles and the national reconciliation. The mystery which had been silenced (Rom. 16:25-27), deals with Adam and Christ. Romans 5 and 1 Corinthians 15 are the only passages in Scripture which show the fundamental connection between Adam, the seed and Christ. It was a mystery not made known until the call of Paul. It is a mistake to teach that Romans 16:25-27 and the mystery of Ephesians 3 are identical, for Romans carries no such calling so high as to place the believer seated with Christ in the superheavenlies, no, it is expressly written 'to the Jew first'.
I believe that at Acts 28 the whole revealed purpose of God came to an end, and that the course that God would then take while Israel remained in blindness had not been revealed. I believe that the whole position of the mystery was a matter of revelation becuase that is what is written, and was prophecied in Acts 26 to come upon Paul the apostle of the nations.
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BORN AGAIN
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epouraniois writes quote:
those believing gentiles were blessed with faithful Abraham. read Hebrews11 to see that Abraham is blessed along with a long list of overcomers of overcoming faith into that Heavenly City. The believers during the Acts are overcomers. The rest will need to find their instruction awaiting them during that great time of teaching we know as the thousand years.
Are you saying the part of the church which believed AFTER Acts does not have overcoming faith and its members are subject to "instruction during the 1,000-year period"? quote:
Those of Israel shall be priests, those of gentiles are at the feast which quite proabably last the full thousand years while all nations are blessed through Israel as her covenant projects.
Not understood, but answer after the previous quote is solved, not now. quote:
That they did not follow Paul and Timothy and Luke into the one body is purposed. For the gifts and calling of God are without change of mind.
Not understood, but answer after first quote is solved, not now.
thank you, BORN AGAIN
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epouraniois
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quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
epour, your last post tells me nothing.
Let me ask you about the 18-year Gentile jealousy period. I recall you saying that when the "tree of Israel was cut down", the believing Gentiles were "cut down with the tree".
Why did these believing Gentiles not end up in the church?
Please try to answer me in small chunks; one thing at a time until it is understood.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
those believing gentiles were blessed with faithful Abraham. read Hebrews11 to see that Abraham is blessed along with a long list of overcomers of overcoming faith into that Heavenly City. The believers during the Acts are overcomers. The rest will need to find their instruction awaiting them during that great time of teaching we know as the thousand years. Those of Israel shall be preists, those of gentiles are at the feast which quite proabably last the full thousand years while all nations are blessed through Israel as her covenant projects.
That they did not follow Paul and Timothy and Luke into the one body is purposed. For the gifts and calling of God are without change of mind.
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BORN AGAIN
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epour, your last post tells me nothing.
Let me ask you about the 18-year Gentile jealousy period. I recall you saying that when the "tree of Israel was cut down", the believing Gentiles were "cut down with the tree".
Why did these believing Gentiles not end up in the church?
Please try to answer me in small chunks; one thing at a time until it is understood.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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epouraniois
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Praise God Alway.
It's not that I am right, it's that God is right, and God sends apostles, and sent apostles are sent to specific people with specific messages for specific purposes. We must rightly divide these purposes and the different messages that God has sent to the different people at different times.
God calls these different messages dispensations. The word carries the idea of administrating a household. God keeps things in an order. We must acknowledge God's order. I wouldn't expect to find your cloths in the fireplace and the food in the washing machine. I would expect you to keep your household in some kind of reasonable order.
All this and more is what is meant by the term dispensation. There are many households (mansions) in the Fathers house, and they are kept in order. The order He calls dispensations.
The only letter with our name on them would naturally be the books we should be studying in.
Its' great to be reading the other childrens letters, but to replace ours with their has caused considerable misunderstandings to say the least.
Begin with the first one. Read the first chapter till you understand it a little bit. Read about the heavenly calling being revealed. Read about what it means to this company. Read about when it happened, where it is located. Read about with the prayer to ask God to open the eyes of your understanding, realizing you have no Scriptures to fall back to for support. Read about the revelation of the mystery which in other times was not made known but was hid in God.
Read about the believers hope and calling into His calling as the body which will be united to the head in the superheavenly kingdom of His Dear Son in Colossians. Read about the absolute equality and the seven fold unity of the Spirit. Read about your glorious position and the worthy walk of the believer who has mastered the first three chapters of Ephesians, and how the enegizer of life wants you to yeild in becoming a full grown man that He may speak by, and the new man which is filled with the knowledge of the fulness of God.
Read about the manifestiig with Christ for His completeness before the earthly people see Him coming in the clouds.
Truly, there is nothing compared to this church called His body, the fulness of Him that filleth all in al.
Read about how Christ will fill all things in heaven and in earth that God might be all in all.
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BORN AGAIN
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okay, epouraniois, I've thought about it more and I'm willing to assume for now that you are right, that the way Israel was to be provoked by the Gentiles was in that 18-year period when the Gentiles around the synagogues were used to "make Israel jealous", and when that did not make Israel jealous, then the final judgment was declared, "henceforth I go to the Gentiles."
Your version really makes more sense to me than what I was thinking, that the (mostly Gentile) church was the one who would "make Israel jealous" throughout the church age. One problem with my version, e.g., is that here I have been saying that "many Israelites" made it into the church, but when I use this church to make my point for jealousy purposes, I find myself suddenly trying to make the church "mostly Gentile" with "as few Israelites as possible", so that does cannot be right.
So assuming for now that your verion of the 18-year period in which the Gentiles by the synagogues were used to "make the Israelites jealous", what comes next?
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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epouraniois
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quote:
I do not see how it is possible to say that there would have been no church had there been no prison epistles.
for the simple reason that every teaching during the ACts was for the hope of Isreal,
and she didn't know anything about any teaching of the church.
they did, however, have the complete old testament which described the kingdom.
The church was not anounced until after Acts 28:28. On one side of that boundry every letter was for the hope of Israel, after Acts 28:28 every letter has no mention of Abraham, the hope of Israel or any such thing, but now is made known the secret that had been hid in God from ages and from generations, and this mystery has to do with the church, not the churches, but the one church called His body. It is not on earth, not in the heavenly city which comes down to the earth, but with Christ , far above all heavens with every gift that is spiritual, leaving no spiritual without giving in blessing.
In the heavenly places. Not on earth. Not in New Jerusalem.
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epouraniois
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quote:
Having said that I would say that there was never a time that Paul was in bonds that he was not in bonds for the Hope of Israel.
Eph 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
And the cause is everything Paul has been speaking about in chapter 2, and chapter 1. And as we learned in chapter 2, the broken down wall between Jew and Gentile created in Christ, one new man. And this man, read the last of ch2, is taken up again after the (), Eph 3:14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
You might ask how I can know this, let me remind you of your grammar school daze, when we learned that every sentence MUST have a noun and a verb in it.
Eph 3:1 For this cause I Paul, (and Paul deviate, failing to mke the complete sentence, here the subject turns) the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles
and is not taken up again until he expounds on the mystery itself, and the when of it.
But when did Paul then go from:
Act 28:20 ...because that for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.
To:
Eph 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles
Let me show you:
Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
That is the turnig point, where Abraham and the hope of Israel, as well as those gentiles used to provoke Israel to bear the kingdom fruit, thus receviing the Christ...
After that verse, the sent apostle makes known a new hope and calling into His body which is heavenly in charactor and far above all in position.
The way is always Christ, that is non dispensational, sin is non dispensational, but God's dealings with the different callings is dispensational.
quote:
Paul says again here in Acts 24:21 that the HOPE of ISRAEL for which he is in bonds is the HOPE OF RESURRECTION. Not a restored earthly national Israel.
resurrection has always been the only hope, but their resurrection is back to the earth, while their overcomers look for the city which is heavenly. In both, they are with (meta) near Christ.
The resurrection of the one body is the out resurrection out from amoung the dead, and the one body is with (sun) united in completion Christ.
I disagree and so does the scripture and the historical record
I didn't see any verses stating that all apostles was given the mystey of the one body.
1 Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout
That address is to the diasporia, the same as James. Peter was a minister of Gospel of the circumcision, even as Paul...uncircumcision. Peter only spoke to gentiles once, five of them if I recall. And his understanding was, know ye not that it is unlawful for me, a Jew, to speak to a gentile?
quote:
I beg to differ: Lets look at Peter: First of all it is incorrect to assume that Peter is speaking to Jews here. He calls them strangers,
They are the same words James used, the twelve tribes scattered abroad, Peter writes scattered throughout, both are the same word diaspora.
I really am not following what you are trying to say. To me, Peter is speaking to the same as all the other twelve had done, writing two letters from Babylon to the same Pentacostal strangers who came down to the anual feasts in the homeland.
Paul preached to them, but also outside the middle wall of partition to the gentiles, until the end of Acts, when Paul is given the second ministry to the gentile only, revealing a calling which goes back before the foundation of the world and far above all heaven of heavens seated with Christ.
Act 26:16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet:
for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things
1
which thou hast seen, and
2
of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; Eph 3:1-3
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Did you guys both have the day off today!!!!!! It is going to take me a week to read and catch up with you two! ![[happyhappy]](graemlins/happyhappy.gif) (this emoticon guy does not look like happyhappy to me- he looks like eeekkkk!) Consider it an EEEKKK!
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BORN AGAIN
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epouraniois, that's all I have to say for now, and will wait to see what helpforhomeschoolers, et al., has to say about what has been said so far.
I'm particularly interested to see how helpforhomeschoolers, et al., thinks Israel was to be provoked by the Gentiles, since I now see that that is an area that first needs to be "overcome" before this dicussion can go any further.
I have to admit what you are saying makes more sense than what I was saying.
thank you for your time. BORN AGAIN
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epouraniois
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quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
I will admit for now that my explanation of how "Israel was (or is) to be provoked by the (mostly Gentile) church" seems a bit lame now that I have written it out.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
The things we need to come to terms with, isn't so much our being deceived by teachers who are not yet themselves weened into the strong meat of the full grown man, but rather, that when Israel took her place amidst the nations, there is no more Jew and Gentile in God's eyes. There are only nations.
Israel is just one of the nations. She has no preiminence, and if a Jewish person is to come into the body of Christ, they will have to follow the example of the only overcomers in Scripture who have so done, which means counting all that is Jewish and Hebrew in charactor and promise behind and pressing on to the high calling of God. Likewise the non Jews have to lay aside their non Jewishness and embrace the teachings of the fellowship of the mystery which is now being worked out, to the end, which is the reward, to the attainment unto the OUTresurrection OUT from amoung the dead.
And there are several requirements for the attainment unto this state of high calling and high reward.
And they cannot be known without prayerful study in the only epistles God has written to all nations. Undoubtably, we have our names on the envelope of these prison epistles, but are only permitted to read God's other childrens letters by which God had called them. We were not forgotten, as membership in the one body pre-exists the foundation of the world, whereas theirs post-exist that same foundation and are written throughout all Scripture.
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BORN AGAIN
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I will admit for now that my explanation of how "Israel was (or is) to be provoked by the (mostly Gentile) church" seems a bit lame now that I have written it out.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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epouraniois
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The thing here is Born AGain, you are introducing a theological argument where Paul does not. All the rationalizing in the world does not change the fact that God provoked Israel for one purpose and one purpose only, that the nation might bear her fruit.
"Wherefore, my brethren...that we should bring forth fruit unto God" (Rom 7:4).
The believers were bearing fruit, but the commission went out to all Israel, the call was to all Israel, but all Israel did not receive the kingdom as is evident.
It is good to stick close to Scripture, that no matter what man may declare, the rule of our measure is the Cannon of Scripture.
The very last thing we want to come into contact with the Word of God is the tradition or belief of any man.
That Paul sought to show, by the figure of the olive tree, how the Lord had used Gentile believers, in order, if it were possible, to ‘provoke’ the nation of Israel ‘to emulation’ in no way means that God did not set Israel aside, resolved to their own statment of divorce in Acts 28:25.
Only after All Israel had heard is the declaration of judicial blindness sealed and sent forth.
"Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it" (Act 28:28).
And only after this is the body of Christ made known, until the further revelation prophesied would come -
"But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee" (Act 26:16).
- did come with the declaration of Acts 28:28, but before this, the church remained a secret hid in God.
It is this secret church which is being worked out now. The fact that Jews are in every nation under the sun is prophecied. That God had a church He had chosen In Himself that goes so far back before every other chosing, and extends far above all every other calling ever taught does not change Israels position in covenant relation, nor the position of the overcomers during the Acts. Those graphed in gentiles were children of promise through Isaac as it is written, and blessed with the overcomers of Israel as their adoptive sphere of blessing makes clear.
And that adoptive shpere of blessing is not the one revealed which Paul and Timothy and Luke had overcome and entered therein, called the one body, not called the wife, or the bride, but the body.
Prior to this, Paul plainly declares what he later is put to explain by the figure of the olive tree:
"Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles" (Rom 1:13).
It was all about Israel bearing her fruit, it was never about any gentile church. The church body is not introduced until after the kingdom hope of Israel is postponed. That was nearly two thousand years ago, and they have been lying to us ever since, avoiding the careful study of Ephesians, avoiding the careful study of the purpose of the Acts and the timelines of when what was written and to whom, and the people in the large have not bothered to open the book except to understand what they are being told, but never to understand what God is saying.
God has clearly made divisions, and provided the necessary instruction to be rightly dividing the word of truth that we might be found a workman need not being ashamed.
There will be few, I am afraid, who will not awaken to shame, but these few do seek; I seek, that I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Yes, in the prison ministry, we learn that Christ expects us to see ourselves now, as He sees us now, in Him, in the heavenlies, died and risen and seated with Him, but you won't find that preached anywhere but to those chosen from before the foundation of the world, as it was not revealed to those chosen since the foundation of the world, i.e., from the end of Acts back through the Scriptures.
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epouraniois writes quote:
How can we be provoking a nation which is in abeyance during an entirely new dispensation which was a secret and not made known during the Acts?
You probably already know this, but the way this is commonly believed is:
The majority of the house of Israel and the house of Judah are among the Western nations and they see the church, which is mostly composed of Gentiles at this time, and through TV and in their cities they see the church "having a wonderful and blessed time in the LORD" and they say to themselves, "who do the Gentiles now have what we formerly had" and in this manner, "the mostly Gentile church provokes them to jealousy" until Jesus's Second Coming.
However, it might then legitimately be asked, "so what if they are jealous in their houses" but "nothing comes from that jealousy", it seems, at this time. I have certainly never heard an Israelite among the nations say, "I'm so jealous, I want what the (mostly Gentile) church has".
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Namely, (if I remember correctly) that you seem to think that the Lord only used the Gentiles for 18 years to provoke the unbelieving part of Israel to jealousy, while I believe that the Lord has been and IS using the church, which is mostly composed of Gentile believers at this time, to "provoke Israel in the nations to jealosy".
Isn't this a point where we differ? If so, let's address this first before I continue reading.
I certainly do not subcribe that Israel is at the time present God's people and that He is not building up the heavenly calling into His body to be seated with Him as revealed in the mystery after Acts.
How can we be provoking a nation which is in abayance during an entirely new dispensation which was a secret and not made known during the Acts?
The Acts has to do with earthly people and earthly promises.
The mystery by the prisoner has to do with an heavenly family and was never made known till after Israel was set amidst the nations, and have had no preiminence for nearly two thousand years.
For you to be provoking Israel as a nation for the hope of Israel further negates any individual hope or calling of your own, and for that to be happening the nation of Israel must stand in the preiminent position as the chosen channel to bless the nations.
During the Acts, the gentiles were being blessed through Isreal. It was for the purpose of provoking them. Are you standing outside the synagoguge to receieve your instructions and blessing from Israel, provoking them by the fact you do not have to come under the law as they were back then or not? Its real simple once we put everything where God has placed them.
Unfortunately, in order to do this, we must disregard much of what is being commonly taught today, of which then, is commonly beleived even though Scripture makes a different declartation.
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is this your answer to my last post, or additions to what you wrote previously? BORN AGAIN
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Paul himself lost his national association with Israel when the nation was set aside, but he entered into a sphere of blessing so great as to enable him to count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ.
Others would find their sphere of blessing set forth in John 14 to 17, and learn that though they were no longer branches in the olive tree of Israel, they were branches in Christ as the True Vine, and so had lost nothing. If we recognize that, dispensational standing may change to our advantage, as it manifestly did in the case of Timothy, Luke and Paul, our difficulty about the believing branches of the olive tree will be resolved. Doctrinal standing is not in view in Romans 11. The grafting in of the unbelieving branches into their own olive tree at the end, represents the restoration of Israel’s national position ‘in that day’. Neither in Paul’s epistles of the Mystery, nor in John’s gospel for the ‘world’, can the olive tree be discovered. The New Covenant, and the hope of Israel, are in abeyance, and not until God’s good time will they be put into operation.
If the whole tree is cut down by the roots at the end of the Acts, then believer and unbeliever are treated alike.
Yet the believing remnant constitute a firstfruit, and are holy. We must be very certain of all our terms here. If the olive tree represents the nation and its national standing, then whatever the problem may be, it is clear that, as Israel as a nation before God does not exist, the olive tree has been cut down. The believing branches, therefore, must have some other ground of blessing. If we change the figure from the olive tree to that of a divorced wife, as in Jeremiah 3:1 and 11:15,16, we may perhaps see more clearly that the believing remnant lost nothing when the national position of Israel was altered at Acts 28. Israel as a restored nation is represented as a divorced wife received back by the Lord (Jer. 3:1), but the believing remnant is spoken of as the ‘bride of the Lamb’ (Rev. 21:9). The ‘divorced wife’ is restored to the land, but the ‘bride’ is associated with the heavenly Jerusalem. There is, therefore, a great difference between the destinies of the believing and the unbelieving branches.
Hosea, speaking of the day of Israel’s restoration, uses the same figures as we have been considering -- the restoration of the separated wife (Hos. 3:3-5), and the spreading branches of the olive (Hos. 14:6).
‘And the Lord shall make thee the head, and not the tail; and thou shalt be above only, and thou shalt not be beneath’ (Deut. 28:13).
This high position Israel forfeited because of unbelief, but a day is coming when the Redeemer shall come to Zion (Isa. 59:20), and Israel shall be restored, and enter into their high glory:
‘The nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted’ (Isa. 60:12).
‘But ye shall be named the Priests of the Lord: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles’ (Isa. 61:6).
With this high destiny in mind, coupled with Israel’s terrible fall, the apostle uses the word ‘diminish’. The primary meaning of hettaomai is to be overcome as in battle or in a law-suit (2 Pet. 2:19,20), and so to be inferior (2 Cor. 12:13). Israel, by their unbelief and failure to repent, were losing their high prerogatives, set out so fully in Romans 9:4,5. This high position, now in danger of being forfeited, was not, of course, given to them on account of any intrinsic worth in themselves, but rather because of their place in the scheme of blessing. And so, when they fail, the apostle speaks of them as being ‘cast away’ -- as the blind man is said to have cast away his garment, that apparently encumbered him, or as the ship that was wrecked was ‘a loss’ (Acts 27:22). Israel had made shipwreck of their calling; they had fallen aside; they were becoming inferior; they were ‘a loss’. And so through all the terms used by the apostle to explain their condition:
* the ‘fall’ (paraptoma: verse 11);
* the ‘diminishing’ hettema: verse 12);
* ‘casting away’ (apobole: verse 15);
* ‘broken off’ (ekklao: verse 17);
* ‘spared not’ (pheidomai: verse 21);
* ‘blindness’ (porosis: verse 25);
* ‘enemies’ (echthros: verse 28);
* and ‘concluded in unbelief’ (sugkleio: verse 32).
In these eight terms, we behold the ‘severity’ of God (verse 22).
The ‘fall’ of Israel is likened to the ‘offence’ of Adam, the word paraptoma being translated ‘offence’ in Romans 5:15,16,18 and 20. The word literally means ‘to fall aside’. Israel follow very much in the steps of Adam. Both fail of their high purpose, and are set aside; and both will realize their destiny only when ‘in Christ’. Just as in Romans 5:20 the abounding ‘offence’ was overruled by God unto much more abounding grace, so in Romans 11:12,15, we discover something of the same argument.\
The very call of Israel was associated historically with the failure and apostasy of the Gentile world, for Abraham’s call in Genesis 12 follows the failure at Babel in Genesis 11. From the call of Abraham up to the time of the Acts of the apostles, God had concentrated His attention upon that one people:
‘You only have I known of all the families of the earth’ (Amos 3:2).
But Now All Men
The apostle speaks of this period of Israel’s ascendancy, and the corresponding Gentile darkness, when addressing the philosophers on Mars Hill, but he also indicates that a change had come:
‘And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent’ (Acts 17:30).
Israel lost their high position of favour, and the far-off Gentiles, through the instrumentality of the apostle’s, ministry, are brought in:
‘For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office’ (Rom. 11:13).
The ‘reconciliation of the world’ is dispensational. It does not mean that the world was saved, justified or glorified, but simply that the barrier that kept the nations at a distance and in darkness has been removed, and ‘all men everywhere’ take the place of ‘Jews only’ (Acts 11:19). The reconciliation which is individual and doctrinal is found in Romans 5:1-11.
‘For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits ... until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in’ (Rom. 11:25).
If the ‘fulness of Israel’ means their restoration to privilege, glory and blessing, so also does the ‘fulness of the Gentiles’:
‘And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed’ (Gal. 3:8).
The Mystery body completely leaves both of these spheres unto it's own heavenly calling, quite seperate and far above all is the new creation of the one new man where the citezenship is far above all heavens of heavens as the saints in the light.
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epouraniois, regarding the following part quote:
Towards the close of Romans 10 the apostle quotes the statement of Moses, that the Lord would provoke Israel to jealousy ‘by them that are no people’. This he now unfolds in connection with the great subject of the reconciling of the world, which is dealt with in Romans 11:11-36.
The Olive Tree and Israel’s National Position (11:11-32)
In the earlier verses of Romans 11, the apostle shows that the failure of the bulk of the nation of Israel in no way invalidates God’s purpose or His faithfulness. The prophets foretold ‘a remnant according to the election of grace’, and the defection of Israel has been overruled to bring about the reconciliation of the Gentile world. Looking on to the close of the chapter, we find that ‘all Israel’ shall be saved, because ‘the gifts and calling of God are without repentance’. The words ‘all Israel’, ‘Jacob’, and ‘Zion’, together with the prophecy alluded to, preclude any deduction from these verses but one -- namely, that there will be a national restoration and blessing of Israel according to the terms of the New Covenant, but it is evident that the apostle, when he wrote about the olive tree, had no intention of introducing a theological argument at this point.
He had one and only one purpose before him -- to seek to show, by the figure of the olive tree, how the Lord had used Gentile believers, in order, if it were possible, to ‘provoke’ the nation of Israel ‘to emulation’. This, and this only, is the reason for introducing the figure, and the recognition of this will save us from almost endless argument as to the ultimate destiny of the branches that remained.
From reading your earlier posts and Topics, it appears that around here we start to have a diff viewpoint.
Namely, (if I remember correctly) that you seem to think that the Lord only used the Gentiles for 18 years to provoke the unbelieving part of Israel to jealousy, while I believe that the Lord has been and IS using the church, which is mostly composed of Gentile believers at this time, to "provoke Israel in the nations to jealosy".
Isn't this a point where we differ? If so, let's address this first before I continue reading.
BORN AGAIN
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epouraniois, I believe the entire following part of yours: quote:
Lets look at what it does say, borrowing some excerpts from the chapel of the open book:
With the opening of Romans 11 the apostle begins to draw his conclusions. Stated briefly, they are as follows:
1. God hath not cast away His people: Proof -- I also am an Israelite and saved.
2. God hath not cast away His people whom He foreknew: Proof -- In Israel’s darkest days, God had reserved unto Himself a faithful company, unknown even to Elijah himself.
3. There is now also at the present time, ‘a remnant according to the election of grace’.
Those who form this ‘remnant’ have believed in the Lord, and are justified. Their standing is in grace, and not in works. Israel as a nation has entered into a period of darkness and blindness, but the salvation of ‘the election’ foreknown by God, is in perfect harmony with God’s sovereignty as discussed at length in Romans 9. No Israelite was coerced into believing; no Israelite was prevented from believing. God’s foreknowledge covers the whole problem
The quotation from Psalm 69 with which the apostle concludes his argument is suggestive. The Psalm is Messianic, and contains the verse (25) quoted by Peter concerning Judas: ‘Let their (his) habitation be desolate’ (Acts 1:20).
Israel had betrayed the Lord. Their self-righteousness had blinded their eyes, and the great fact that Christ was the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believeth became a stumbling block and an offence to them.
Only a remnant believed, and that elect company was not exclusively Jewish, but included those who walked in the steps of Abraham’s faith. There was no difference between the Jew and the Greek, for ‘the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon Him’.
Towards the close of Romans 10 the apostle quotes the statement of Moses, that the Lord would provoke Israel to jealousy ‘by them that are no people’. This he now unfolds in connection with the great subject of the reconciling of the world, which is dealt with in Romans 11:11-36.
I will continue reading. BORN AGAIN
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Why the apostle does not actually speak of the cutting down of the olive tree in Romans 11, but only of ‘some of the branches’ having been broken off.
The answer is that the epistle to the Romans was written before Acts 28, and still expressed the hope that, even at the eleventh hour, Israel would be provoked unto emulation, and be saved. No indication is given that the ‘fulness of the Gentiles’ would not be attained until nearly two thousand years had elapsed.
If we teach that the ‘olive tree’ position still continues after Acts 28, let us see what the apostle’s words imply. Into that same olive tree from which some of the branches had been broken out, God assures us that He will graft them again. When this takes place, Israel as a nation will be restored.
How is it possible for Israel to be restored as a nation by having any number of branches grafted into any existing Christian community?
There is butr one answer. Only while Israel existed as ‘a people’ was it possible for believing Gentiles to be grafted in among the other believing branches, and so become linked with the blessing of Abraham, and partake of the root and fatness of the olive tree.
This is in fulfilment of the New Covenant and unconnected to the one body of Ephesians:
‘For this is My Covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins’ (Rom. 11:27).
Under the terms of the New Covenant, the forgiveness of sins leads to the restoration of the Nation (Jer. 31:31-37), and in verse 37 we read:
‘If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord’ (31:37).
With the knowledge of this promise under the New Covenant, the apostle writes:
‘As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance’ (Rom. 11:28,29).
Before the quotation of Isaiah 6:9 in Matthew 13, we have a series of events leading up to this critical point:
1. The failure of Israel to repent, even though the mighty works done in Chorazin and Bethsaida and Capernaum would have brought about the repentance of notorious cities of the Gentiles like Tyre and Sidon (Matt. 11:20-24).
2. The threefold rejection of the Lord Jesus in His three offices, as Priest, Prophet and King. ‘In this place is one greater than the Temple’ (Priest); ‘A greater than Jonah is here’ (Prophet); ‘A greater than Solomon is here’ (King) (Matt. 12:6,41,42).
3. Consequent upon this rejection and non-repentance come the ‘mysteries of the kingdom of heaven’, and the citation of Isaiah 6:9 (Matt. 13:11,14).
At the close of the Acts we find a repetition of this crisis, but on a larger scale. This time Israel are set aside, but no command is given to make a fresh proclamation, as in Acts 1. The quotation of Isaiah 6:9 is followed by the dispensation of the Mystery, in which the olive tree and its branches, as such, have no place.
Between Matthew 13 and Acts 28 there were several excisions of the branches because of unbelief, of which two may be noted, at Antioch and Corinth. That neither of these was final, or intended to set aside the nation, Paul’s own action towards Israel makes clear. After Antioch he still preached in the synagogues; and after Corinth, he still gave Israel and Israel’s hope first place (Acts 28:17,20).
We have only to turn to Romans 15:12,13, to see that Paul and the Church were still expecting the fulfilment of Isaiah 11 as well as Jeremiah 31. The ‘hope of Israel’ was still the one hope before them all. It suffices for the apostle in Romans 11 that ‘some of the branches’ had been broken off, and, to provoke the olive tree to emulation, some wild branches had been grafted in. What would happen to the olive tree if that effort failed is not revealed in Romans 11, and in the nature of things could not be. Now that we have the light of all Scripture, we know that Israel were to be ‘plucked up’ and ‘scattered’, and to enter into a ‘Lo-ammi’ condition, while a new dispensation was introduced. But though all this is true, it was not revealed in Romans.
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Romans does not say that the tree was cut down, but that some branches were broken off.
I believe we must take these chapters as we do the others, in their given context, and take every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God and find the place where He has placed them. The danger lies in it becoming our beliefs rather than His word. Unfortunatley man's beliefs are first found, then Scirptures are sought to prove man right, but that isn't what God calls rightly dividing the word of truth. We need better teachers, and more of them, but probably won't get them. The enemy is far advanced.
Now, John the Baptist proclaimed the tree hewn down. Jesus Christ proclaimed the same again and again, over, and over he drilled it home. It is the nation of Israel that did not overcome, therefore she did not receive the expected soon return of the Lord to the earth from heaven. It is the nation of Israel and the hope of Israel that is view throughout the Acts. There is no church teachings for the seperate hope of any genitles, that is never the context during Acts.
Lets look at what it does say, borrowing some excerpts from the chapel of the open book:
With the opening of Romans 11 the apostle begins to draw his conclusions. Stated briefly, they are as follows:
1. God hath not cast away His people: Proof -- I also am an Israelite and saved.
2. God hath not cast away His people whom He foreknew: Proof -- In Israel’s darkest days, God had reserved unto Himself a faithful company, unknown even to Elijah himself.
3. There is now also at the present time, ‘a remnant according to the election of grace’.
Those who form this ‘remnant’ have believed in the Lord, and are justified. Their standing is in grace, and not in works. Israel as a nation has entered into a period of darkness and blindness, but the salvation of ‘the election’ foreknown by God, is in perfect harmony with God’s sovereignty as discussed at length in Romans 9. No Israelite was coerced into believing; no Israelite was prevented from believing. God’s foreknowledge covers the whole problem
The quotation from Psalm 69 with which the apostle concludes his argument is suggestive. The Psalm is Messianic, and contains the verse (25) quoted by Peter concerning Judas: ‘Let their (his) habitation be desolate’ (Acts 1:20).
Israel had betrayed the Lord. Their self-righteousness had blinded their eyes, and the great fact that Christ was the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believeth became a stumbling block and an offence to them.
Only a remnant believed, and that elect company was not exclusively Jewish, but included those who walked in the steps of Abraham’s faith. There was no difference between the Jew and the Greek, for ‘the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon Him’.
Towards the close of Romans 10 the apostle quotes the statement of Moses, that the Lord would provoke Israel to jealousy ‘by them that are no people’. This he now unfolds in connection with the great subject of the reconciling of the world, which is dealt with in Romans 11:11-36.
The Olive Tree and Israel’s National Position (11:11-32)
In the earlier verses of Romans 11, the apostle shows that the failure of the bulk of the nation of Israel in no way invalidates God’s purpose or His faithfulness. The prophets foretold ‘a remnant according to the election of grace’, and the defection of Israel has been overruled to bring about the reconciliation of the Gentile world. Looking on to the close of the chapter, we find that ‘all Israel’ shall be saved, because ‘the gifts and calling of God are without repentance’. The words ‘all Israel’, ‘Jacob’, and ‘Zion’, together with the prophecy alluded to, preclude any deduction from these verses but one -- namely, that there will be a national restoration and blessing of Israel according to the terms of the New Covenant, but it is evident that the apostle, when he wrote about the olive tree, had no intention of introducing a theological argument at this point. He had one and only one purpose before him -- to seek to show, by the figure of the olive tree, how the Lord had used Gentile believers, in order, if it were possible, to ‘provoke’ the nation of Israel ‘to emulation’. This, and this only, is the reason for introducing the figure, and the recognition of this will save us from almost endless argument as to the ultimate destiny of the branches that remained.
Romans 11:11-32
A 11-25. Israel’s fall occasions Gentile reconciliation.
B C1 11. Provoke ‘If’.
D1 12. Fulness of Israel.
C2 13-15. Provoke ‘If’.
D2 16. Firstfruit.
C3 17-24. Provoke ‘If’.
D3 25. Fulness of Gentiles .
A 26-32. Mercy to Gentiles occasions Israel’s reconciliation.
B E 26. All Israel shall be saved.
F 26. Deliverer: turn away ungodliness .
G 27. The covenant.
H 28. Enemies Gospel For your sakes.
H 28. Beloved election. For the fathers’ sake.
G 29. The gifts and calling.
F 32. Concluded in unbelief.
E 32. Mercy upon them all.
‘What does the olive tree represent?’
The Old Testament passages with which we are most concerned are to be found in Jeremiah. In chapter 11 we read:
‘The Lord called thy name, A green olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit ... the branches of it are broken’ (Jer. 11:16).
Not only does Paul take the figure of the olive tree, and its broken branches, from Jeremiah, but he also refers to Jeremiah 31:31 in Romans 11:27, where the olive tree is once more complete. There are some who have sought to show that the olive tree of Romans 11 is to be found in Christendom today, but such teaching is contrary to Jeremiah 11 and 31 and Romans 11 alike. The Book of Jeremiah consists of fifty-one prophecies, each introduced by some phrase as, ‘The word of the Lord came’. The opening prophecy is indicative of all the rest:
‘See, I have this day set thee over the nations and over the kingdoms, to root out, and to pull down, and to destroy, and to thrown down, to build, and to plant’ (Jer. 1:10).
The subjects of this prophecy are clearly ‘nations’ and ‘kingdoms’, not churches, either real or professing. Also the prophecy is two-fold: first, judgment in the form of ‘rooting out’, and then, restoration in the form of ‘planting’.?The second prophecy in Jeremiah occupies only two verses, which we give in full:
‘Moreover the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, Jeremiah, what seest thou? And I said, I see a rod of an almond tree. Then said the Lord unto me, Thou hast well seen: for I will hasten My word to perform it’ (Jer. 1:11,12).
The word for ‘almond tree’ is shaked, and the word for ‘hasten’ is shoked, the almond being called the ‘watcher’ or ‘early waker’. When the time comes for the people of Israel to be restored, the same word is again used:
‘And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them (shoked), to pluck up ... so will I watch over them ... to plant, saith the Lord ... I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah ...’ (Jer. 31:28-31).
Moreover, in verses 36 and 37 Israel are assured that they shall not be cast off on account of their misdeeds -- a passage which finds an echo in the words of Romans 11:29 ‘For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance’. Returning to the prophecy of Jeremiah, we observe that where the green olive tree with the broken branches is spoken of, the prophet interprets the symbol as referring to Israel:
‘But if they will not obey, I will utterly pluck up and destroy that nation, saith the Lord’ (Jer. 12:17).
If we examine the context of Romans 11, we shall find that there also, Israel is portrayed as an olive tree:
‘To Israel He saith, All day long I have stretched forth My hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people’ (10:21).
‘Blindness in part is happened to Israel ... and so all Israel shall be saved’ (11:25,26).
‘As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes’ (11:28).
There can be no misunderstanding these references that stand on either side of the passage which refers to the olive tree. It is not a church that is in view, but Israel as a nation. The ‘they’ that ‘stumbled’ are Israel (11:11); ‘my flesh’ (11:14) refers to Israel; and those who were ‘cast away’, and who are yet to be ‘received’, are Israel (11:15).
consider the ‘branches’ of the olive tree:
‘God hath not cast away His people which He foreknew’ (11:2).
‘There is a remnant according to the election of grace’ (11:5).
‘Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded’ (11:7).
The branches that were broken off were the unbelieving among Israel, the remaining branches constituting a remnant. Into the place from which the unbelieving of Israel had been broken off, the Gentile believer had been grafted, ‘contrary to nature’.
Why does the apostle use the expression ‘contrary to nature’? The root and fatness of the olive tree belonged to Israel, and if Israel had repented, and had been restored at that time, no Gentile would ever have shared it with them, even temporarily. It was something exceptional that was in view. It is clear that Paul cannot be referring to the great promise of justification by faith, for two reasons. In the first place, he warns the believing Gentile that he might be ‘cut off’ -- a warning that cannot refer to justification by faith, for Romans 8 makes separation for ever impossible; and secondly, Abraham himself was an uncircumcised Gentile when he was justified by faith, and so can be the father of all who believe, whether Jews or Gentiles, without any necessity for a grafting in ‘contrary to nature’.
The whole point of the olive tree in Romans 11 lies in the purpose with which the wild olive was grafted in -- namely, to provoke the flagging tree?(Israel) to jealousy. Gentile nations are not in view in Romans 11, for such cannot be addressed as ‘brethren’, neither do they stand ‘by faith’. They stand by the graphing into the true tree Israel, by the root and the fatness of the national tree Israel.
They are not graphed into individual believers, they are graphed into the true tree that she as a nation bear her fruit.
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BORN AGAIN
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epouraniois writes quote:
The gentiles who were used to provoke Israel were graphed into the good tree, the overcoming believers. Yet, the tree was cut down due to unblief nevertheless.
Romans does not say that the tree was cut down, but that some branches were broken off.
Romans 11:17
And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Luke 3:9
And now also the axe is laid to the root of the trees: every tree therefore which brings not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
"Every tree" represents each individual Israelite; if an Israelite "does not bring forth fruit", it is cut down. This does not refer to the whole nation of Israel "as a tree".
Matthew 21:19
And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said to it, Let no fruit grow on you henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.
This can still refer to "individual" Israelites as a "tree" of Luke 3:9, and collectively, all in Israel who bore no fruit were "trees" who bore no fruit.
But the good olive tree of Israel never died and has been living since Abraham/Isaac/Jacob-Israel, and is still living as the church, until Jesus comes, when the house of Israel and the house of Judah and the church will apparently merge into one Israel of God.
Romans does not say that the tree was cut down, but that some branches were broken off, and that we believing Gentiles were "grafted in among them".
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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epouraniois
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quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
epouraniois, you write quote:
No, I am not graphed in and cut down with Israel in her blindness.
Why do you insist that the believing Gentiles were "grafted in" with the UN-believing portion of Israel?
We believing Gentiles were "grafted in" with the BELIEVING portion of Israel.
Romans 11:17
And if some of the branches {i.e., UNbelieving Israel} be broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree {i.e., believing Gentiles}, were grafted in among them {i.e., among believing Israel}, and with them {i.e., with believing Israel} partake of the root and fatness of the olive tree.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
The gentiles who were used to provoke Israel were graphed into the good tree, the overcoming believers. Yet, the tree was cut down due to unblief nevertheless.
In order for the Jew to overcome, they would have to do what Paul did, and what Timothy did, and what Luke did. Luke had to let go of his uncircumcision, while Paul and Timothy had to let go of their circumcision. We read that everyone else almost without exception turned away. Paul wrote seven additional epistles, and three of them are of a personal nature. This leaves four which are for instruction in the doctrine of the mystery body to the one hope of His calling into the inheritance of the saints in the light far above all. When Christ manifests, His body is going to be manifest with Him to complete the fulness of Him that filleth all in all. Then the coming return of the Lord for His earthly people will take place and they will see Him whom they had pierced and morn for Him as for their only son. Some will be resurrected unto shame and some to life for an age time. Of the one body we read they also have something to work out in their salvation, it is also of reward, one is to shame, like they of the promise, and that from a failure to rightly divide the word of truth, as it is written.
The overcomers are to have the blessed reward of the exanastasis, or the outresurrection of Phi 3:11, where the apostle then speaks that he must now do one thing. Just prior to this he is speaking of all the glory and the authority he had in Israel as a Jew, but now in Phi 3:8, the prisoner declares, "Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus". He continues on to say that now he has but one thing he can do, and that is to continue on, and put those things which were behind in their proper place, the past, that he must now press on to the high calling.
Never before the one body is made known is there a high calling of God to continue on unto. This is the heavenly calling of the overcomers of the outresurrection and is counted for as reward. This is over and above the Salvation of God, which is the gift and not of works we read about in the opening doctrine of Ephesians. This is part of the practical walk of the believer, exercizing his acknowledgment of the doctrine and seeking the intimate expression of Chirst in their lives now, that by Him, we might be used to speak His words, and here it is again, for what purpose?
Eph 3:9
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Eph 3:10
To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
Eph 3:11
According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord
This is definately not made known during the Acts. They didn't know one thing about the eternal purpose of God working out a family in heaven that are so intimately connect to Christ, that the only way to express this unity of oneness is the relationship in that of head to body. It is a much closer relationship than man and wife, who are considered one, but are yet seperated.
He can and does quicken His body with a new life now. It is very real. Not a the Figure Hypocatastasis, or Metaphor, or Simile, or Metonymy, it is literal as can be observed by the prepositions and the contexts.
Chapter 3 comences with the thing Paul has been especially speaking of in Chapters one and two, and has a rather large () in it thus:
Eph 3:1 For this cause > 'For' being the argument already in progress. The cause already given, for the cause especially set forth before...
and here becomes the () where he cannot but help expand the idea; before taking up the original thought again:
Eph 3:14 For this cause
And what is contained in the ()? It is the discription of the revelation of the mystery and to whom and when it is revealed.
And this chapter should be considered in this light. All of this is made much clearer in the Companion Bible, which breaks down everything by outline form and subsets of outline on nearly every page.
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BORN AGAIN
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epouraniois, you write quote:
No, I am not graphed in and cut down with Israel in her blindness.
Why do you insist that the believing Gentiles were "grafted in" with the UN-believing portion of Israel?
We believing Gentiles were "grafted in" with the BELIEVING portion of Israel.
Romans 11:17
And if some of the branches {i.e., UNbelieving Israel} be broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree {i.e., believing Gentiles}, were grafted in among them {i.e., among believing Israel}, and with them {i.e., with believing Israel} partake of the root and fatness of the olive tree.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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epouraniois
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quote:
Are you saying to me that these words were true for the people at Ephesus and not also true for the people at Rome or Corinth? Who is the “new man” of Ephesus 2:15?
Is he not simply the Roman or the Greek or the Asian or the Jew not reckoned by any nationality except that he is HUMAN? Where was he born? At Ephesus? When was he born? While Paul was in Prison? I do not believe this. He was born at the cross.
We must read this verse within the given context before we can see who it speaking of, and then we shall be in a better position to determine if this is indeed speaking of creating this 'new man' is born at the cross or, does this reference the new creation that the verse, and indeed, the entire three chapters of doctrine are speaking of.
If this new man is preached starting from the cross to all Jews and gentiles before this new creation of Ephesians, then where are all the verses showing forth what Ephesians show forth? We should expect that this would have been taught at some previous time if it applied to those of the Acts period.
Please take the time to read the thread on the Doctrinal Wall, it puts these verses together. We must keep in mind here, that the Lord is telling us that this had never been revealed before, that it was hid in God. This fact alone means it did not apply to those who were previously given doctrine to follow. They, not having this doctrine before, never expected to know what had not been revealed to them, was assured of their hope, and was quoted of it out from the Old Testament by all the Acts period writers. It regards the earth and the Lord having preimenence on the earth.
As the program and plan of God is expanded, due to Israel's blindness, it became time to reveal this mystery body which was chosen before these other chosings. It is now revealed. They all turned away from the mystery body revelation.
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The same moment the veil was rent between the Jew and the Holy of Holies, the partition was rent between the Jew and the Gentile.
I have no idea why you say that. Peter certainly didn't know anything about any gentile being given access. He had no idea why God was having him speak to Cornelius. If that had been the case, we should expect to see the Jews rejoicing that gentiles were hearing, that Peter had been given the blessed oportunity to speak to the gentiles, but we don't, instead we find a tribunal being held to judge Peter, for it was unlawful for a Jew to speak to a gentile. It wasn't predjudice it was law. And thoughout the Acts, no gentile had any hope of their own. In the last of the Acts epistles:
Rom 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers
They weren't preaching any gentile church body during the Acts. It was Israel's kingdom calling, nothing more. Gentiles were used to provoke Israel. That is what is stated. gentiles were made partakers of Israel's spiritual things. They had no hope beyond being seated at Israel's table, they didn't have their own table, and since the Mystery was not yet revealed, none read nor dreamed that any heavenly hope would ever be offered, it was a secret, but when it was made known, after Acts 28, it was rejected. And today it is rejected as being not a secret, but always made known.
There is nothing said here in Ephesians 2 to the church at Ephesus that was not also true of the church at Rome or the church at Corinth.
Really? I beg you to begin posting verses showig the teaching are exactly the same then, with no difference. Perhaps Romans and Corinthians taught they would be seated with Christ in the heavenly places, or that they were not in times past 'time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands', &c, &c.
But remember this, Ephesians 2 cannot be seperated from Ephesians 1 and 3, being that all three are the doctrinal chapters, nor from the other prison epistles, which all speak of the heavenly calling unto an heavenly citezinship with the saints in the holiest of all, not in New Jerusalem, not in the earth, not with Israel, not with angels, but far above all where Christ sits.
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There was once a division between the commonwealth of Israel (called circumcision) and all other nations (called uncircumcision, by the circumcision) Through Christ twain were made one new man – those to whom inheritance in the promises of Abraham were made through faith in and of Christ.
The one new man was not created until this verse declares it, the word is CREATED, as in the universe, as shown above, and the middle wall was not broken down during the Acts, it was death to any gentile who walked beyond it, and it was waaayyy out past every other court in the outer court where the gentiles would stand and await to be spoken to after the Jews held their Sabbath day cerimonies in the Tabernacle, which the gentiles never saw.
And here, there is no inheritance through Abraham, this inheritance is far above all, the inheritance is the saints in the light, not in the earth. This is just not the same chosing, nor is it the same teachings. It is, rather, the secret body of Christ that was hid in God from ages and from generations, just as it professes to be.
Why not? The saints at Corinth were not new men of Ephesus 2:15? based on what would you have them to be something else?
How could it be, this secret was not revealed before, not to Corinth, not to Thesselonica, not anywhere at any time, ever. It was hid in God. The Corinthians were carnal, they were likened unto babies, practicing childish things, and Paul was preaching to the Jew first, for the hope of Israel, not for the hope of any gentile church. Again,the gentiles stood outside and seperate. They were instructed that they should be one body but not Christ's body where Christ is the head, no, they were compared to the eye, and the ear, and the hand, but in the mystery body no one takes any part of the head. Christ is the head, for they are the body and Christ is the head. In Corinthians they are specifically members severally, but in the body of Christ all are joint partakers, joint heirs, and joint members (Eph 3:6), all meaning absolute equallity in this new creation, which Christ made in Himself, not made on the earth, but in Himself, where we also find this mention in Col3.3, with the additional attributes that, unlike any previos calling, we do not fight with flesh and blood as they did during the Acts.
quote:
What is the specific hope you speak of... could you give me a scripture that I am sure I know what you speak of and am not relying on my assumption?
Do you not believe that you are grafted into the Olive tree?
"the hope of His calling", for their is "one hope of your calling".
No, I am not graphed in and cut down with Israel in her blindness. I am a member of the one body revealed and created in Christ, which in other times was not made known, but was hid in God from ages of time and generations of men, but now is made manifest of the heavenly calling.
Those graphed into Israel had no teachings suggesting that God had a plan to put all things in heaven under His feet as well, having chosen an adopted body to complete Him in the superheavenly spheres far above all. They did not have the teachings. They could see their calling, it was on the earth, and it showed the powers of the age to come for the hope of Israel.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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I have to work today, so I wont be around till the wee hours as I have to go to Nebraska, but that will give you a chance to read my Loooonnnnnggg post and I will wait for your further comments before I try and respond.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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epouraniois
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Lets look at the reason you don't agree with the apostle regarding the church body being a new creation. I still have to read the rest anyway. (by the way, my neighbor moved, so instead of cleaning my desk, I just got another one, ha).
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make ktizō in himself of twain one new man, so making peace
Now just before this, in v.11-14, the apostle reminds the gentiles of their position when they stood outside the middle wall, when there was enmity between Jew and Gentile.
Lets look at the word used for 'create', which is in v.15, 'to make':
G2936
κτίζω
ktizō
ktid'-zo
Probably akin to G2932 (through the idea of the proprietorship of the manufacturer); to fabricate, that is, found (form originally): - create, Creator, make.
And to get an understanding of how God has used this word, lets then look and see so that we can this word clear in our mind. The Bible provides us with twelve occurances of the word ktizō :-
Mar 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation ktizō which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
1Co 11:9 Neither was the man created ktizō for the woman; but the woman for the man.
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator ktizō, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Rev 10:6 And swore by him that liveth forever and ever, who created ktizō heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer
Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honor and power: for thou hast created ktizō all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created ktizō.
1Ti 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created ktizō to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created ktizō him
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created ktizō, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created ktizō by him, and for him:
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created ktizō in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created ktizō all things by Jesus Christ:
Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created ktizō in righteousness and true holiness
So my question is, on what grounds are we to deny that God means He created ktizō one new man in Himself as Ephesians 2 provides?:
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to create ktizō in himself of twain one new man, so making peace
Further, this created man is not included with any previous calling and chosing because every other chosing occurred since the foundation of the world, whereas this creation was chosen 'from before the foundation of the world' and is called both 'new' and 'created'.
Additionally, nothing is brought forward from any previous calling except the need for a Saviour, and in this created body which is called NEW, IS a distinct and seperate calling into an ADOPTION which is totally unrelated to iether of the other two adoptions made known previously, which included Israel and the gentiles graphed in and made 'partakers of Israel's spiritual things'.
If the adoptions are carried over into this new one, then we must consider that Paul did not know what he was writing about when he falsely gave them hope into an adoption wherein he could write by divine insperation that they could see their calliing, or that the Holy Spirit was lying to them, which is unthinkable.
There is a mountain of additional differences between the mystery revealed and set forth by Paul the prisoner, wherein the Holy Spirit inspired writer instructs this one church, His Body, that they must rightly divide the word of truth, and any of which came before. The instructions given in the prison epistles are not found anywhere else or relate to any other calling, being just the tip of the perverbial iceberg of differences.
I'll read the rest of the thread maniana. Please do consider the consistancy of the usage of the word ktizō.
Ephesians 4: 4
There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
And this church is heavenly in it's position, and is not likened to a bride.
The previous calling is likened unto a virgin bride, whereas this church is likened unto a full grown male.
The bride.
On Earth.
The body.
Far above all heavens of heavens connected to the head.
Not the same.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Hi: I will respond to each of your posts in order here. I am sorry that it has taken me so long to respond; I have been buried in my desk for a few days.
You made me smile with your 'Sorry bout the length" Probably no one here has taken more ribbing over the years here for the length of their posts than I. I think that they finally just gave up.
Until you start posting posting volumes of "the Bible according to Lewis Sperry Chafer" or some other scholar to make your point, I will not complain about the length of your posts!
Now, your post:
quote:
Yet, we are in a period of grace. God is not judging us as was the case,say,Acts5, or Act 28:26 when the tree would either stand or be cut down.
Individually, I would say that I agree with this; however, God is still judging nations/governments/ powers etc in my opinion.
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However, there became a time when that grace was preached, not to the Jew first, and also to the gentile, but was thereafter preached to a new creation.
Well, I would say that SALVATION through faith in Christ was preached first to the Jew and then to the Gentile. Can we agree that when you say Grace was preached you are saying Salvation through faith in and of Christ was preached? Can we agree that man has always been saved by Grace? Can we agree that the men that were found righteous under the Law were found righteous because God dispensed Grace to them?
Salvation through faith in Christ was preached first to the Jew and then to the Gentile. We disagree about this “new creature” but I am going to address that further down….
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Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
11 ¶ Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 ¶ For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
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Are you saying to me that these words were true for the people at Ephesus and not also true for the people at Rome or Corinth? Who is the “new man” of Ephesus 2:15?
Is he not simply the Roman or the Greek or the Asian or the Jew not reckoned by any nationality except that he is HUMAN? Where was he born? At Ephesus? When was he born? While Paul was in Prison? I do not believe this. He was born at the cross.
The same moment the veil was rent between the Jew and the Holy of Holies, the partition was rent between the Jew and the Gentile. There is nothing said here in Ephesians 2 to the church at Ephesus that was not also true of the church at Rome or the church at Corinth. There was once a division between the commonwealth of Israel (called circumcision) and all other nations (called uncircumcision, by the circumcision) Through Christ twain were made one new man – those to whom inheritance in the promises of Abraham were made through faith in and of Christ.
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I also do not believe this new man is the growing up from the babihood of Corinth or Hebrews. God had given them a specific hope, preached to them it's truth, showing them it could be fulfilled IF Israel as a nation repented and so turned.
Why not? The saints at Corinth were not new men of Ephesus 2:15? based on what would you have them to be something else?
What is the specific hope you speak of... could you give me a scripture that I am sure I know what you speak of and am not relying on my assumption?
Do you not believe that you are grafted into the Olive tree?
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I believe each of the three adoptions are complete and true. The distinction are many, one of the strongest ones is the time of the choosings.
3 adoptions? Adoption of Jew? Gentile? new Man? I am sorry I do not mean to be so slow to follow. Please explain 3 adoptions.
I guess I need to pause here. Do you believe that Peter, John, and the other that make up the 12 are members of the Church? of the Bride? Are you of the belief that Paul was the first member of the church. Maybe you could make a statement that would help me understand where you are...
I believe the Church is made up of....
I believe the Body is made up of...
I believe the Bride is made up of...
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For ex, if I am a school teacher, and I know I have pre-divided the class (kingdom) into two groups (Jew&Gentile), but have made allowances for some individuals to have advantage (Israel) and excel amoungst themselves (believers), then I must wait for the outcome before the next thing in my corriquillum is ready to be announced - its a secret. quote:
Woa! Where in the scripture does it say that the curriculumn is different for the Gentile? Where does it say in scripture that the Curriculumn changed? Man has always been saved (found righteous/ determined to be just) by the dispensation of the grace of God. After the death and resurrection of Christ, grace that had been dispensed under the Law was no longer found there because the OBJECT of faith was now manifest – Christ is now the object of faith. Christ was present in the Law under the dispensation of the law – He was the Spirit of Law that could not be separated from the Letter of the Law. When men like the Pharisee did separate and not abide in the spirit of the law in faith – they found them selves in a situation where they had placed their faith in themselves and their ability to interpret and follow the Law and they reckoned their righteousness came by their circumcision. This was NEVER the case.
It is error – I believe come to us from the Roman Catholic Church that would have us believe that somehow the Church was a response to the Jew’s rejection of Christ. The Church was the plan from the beginning!!!!!!!!! Jesus did not expect the Pharisee to recognize him… he never once asked for their repentance… he brought judgment on them. Jesus did not come the first time to establish and earthly kingdom! He came to do exactly what He did. The Jews did not murder Jesus, He laid His life Down…
In our classroom, Salvation - lets call it justification or righteousness. The declaration of righteousness upon man has always been given by Grace of God. He always gave it for faith.
Noah was found righteous by grace because he was faithful and God accounted it as righteousness.
Abraham was found righteous by Grace because he was faithful and God accounted it as righteousness.
Under the Law of Moses, all that were found to be righteous were found to be so by Grace because they were faithful and God accounted it as righteousness.
Under the Law blessing or curing could be had in this life for those who in faith followed the commands of God to the best of their human ability and trusted God to find them righteous.
This was true for the Hebrews as well as the stanger (gentile) that sojourned with them and lived according to the Law.
This is the curriculum from the beginning - Know that I AM God. Know that I am a Rewarder of those who seek my face and obey my commands.Obey my commands and have blessing in this life and in the one to come.
When Jesus came he found some who understood this... they had been living under the Law by faith and they recognized HIM and they believed HIM.
He also found those who did not get this and whose faith was in their own ability to interpret and keep the Law and in their geneological connection to Abraham. These did not know him as they did not know HIS Father.
This group (the believers – who lived under the Law) were not a group within the Kingdom - they were the Kingdom. They had been being stewarded by the Pharisee and Sadducee of the day ... but they were the Kingdom. The stewardship of them was wrested from the Pharisee and Sadducee in 70 AD.
So we have God administering Grace before the Law and all that were found righteous before the Law were admistered Grace by God who accounted their faithfulness for righteousness.
We have God adminstering Grace under the law and grace was given to those who by faith followed the Law and it was accounted to them as righteousness.
Then we have God manifesting HIS Grace as the person of Jesus Christ who was during this time the object of faith and those who died during this time were accounted righteous by their belief in the SON as the Messiah - this would be the group which John the baptist was part. He was not the Body or the Bride of Christ; He died under the Law, but Grace was still present in the Law though it was manifest bodily. This is the transition period of Christ’s earthly ministry.
Then after The death and resurrection of Jesus we have God administering grace solely apart from the Law. To the NEW MAN of Ephesians 2:15 who is neither Jew nor Greek. We now find that those who follow the Law follow it without Grace. Not a place to be since without grace the Law cant save any.
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And if then, I take the overcomers of that class, then introduce them to what was kept secret from them, another group of classmates that I had chosen, then the first two groups (Jew&Gentile), no matter who overcame, are not the same as those I had chosen (the church) from before and kept secret.
Those who continued in belief to see the resurrection and ascension were given the Baptism BY the Holy Spirit at Pentecost and became the born again indwelled, sealed, body and bride of Christ. All those who entered the church after Pentecost and received the Baptism by the Holy Spirit are now one in Body with Christ - the Bride. We are with the OT Saints – The Church and Kingdom of God and Christ.
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Biblically however, in the example above, the overcomers (the remnant and gentile believers) rejected the previously chosen secret group (the church) and held onto their kingdom which is no longer in play, while the previously chosen (church) are ready and have been given entrance.
Show me this historically? Biblically? Who are the remnant and Gentile believers that you speak of here? Names?
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Bible : I do not believe the new man of Ephesians and the child of Acts is one and the same calling and company.
I hear this - But I don’t understand it. I don’t know how or based on what you can come to this. I pray that does not sound rude. It is not intended to be. Can you help me to understand how you come to here? I see Jew and Gentile period. I see a time when it no longer matters that one is Jew or Gentile and that happened at the cross because when the viel was rent between the Holy of Holies and the Jew, the partition was also rent between the Jew and the Gentile. Not everyone understood this. Paul was perhaps the first to fully understand this. But it happened at the cross.
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I believe the church, His body, was a secret
I have chopped you up a bit here to try and speak to each thought clearly - I think that the use of "church" from the Pauline Dispensational view is in error. That is a discussion all its own and while I would like to discuss it, I don’t want to muddy the water here more than it is as there is so much here we have to weed through as it is.
But HIS body a secret - yes! Here we agree, but I am not sure that we each understand that we do.
I guess that what I am saying is that yes, this IS the mystery... this is what was not known/ seen/ understood before... this is what was hidden the union of Christ into ONE Body with the Church - the marriage union of Christ and HIS Bride - the oneness of Christ with the Father - this is a picture that is like envelopes we are in Christ and he is in the father and yet the Father and Christ are in us. This never happened before. This was not known or understood before.... this is the mystery. Christ is the Mystery. Christ that is the ALmighty as revealed to John in the Revelation is the mystery and his union with his bride into one body. The church is comprised of the Bride and the Friends of the Bride and the Patriarchs and will one day also include the tribulation saints and those who come to Christ at the end of the millennium. The Bride is a part of the Church; there are some members of the church that are never going to be the bride; we have something that is greater with Christ than the Patriarchs or John the Baptist… even Moses or Elijah, but together with them we are ONE church – One Kingdom.
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and was ‘created a new man’ as Adam was at the beginning,
Here we have an impass. If we do not remove the contextural integrity of Ephesians 2;15 - this new man of Ephesians 2:15 is a man without national claim to the promises of God. He is a man that is neither Jew nor Gentile though he be a Hebrew or a Roman, or a Greek or an Asian or a barbarian. All men have equal access to the throne room of God through Christ.
This is not a new man as Adam was in the beginning though through Christ and the re-birth we become a new creature in Christ as Adam was before he died and God covered him with skins. But we still wear the skins till the body of sin is destroyed and the new man - the purchased possession the spiritual body is redeemed and we are raised in Glory.
and that the going on to the ‘perfect man’ of Ephesians 4 does not mean growth from the childhood state of 1 Corinthians 13, but from the condition of the newly-created man of Eph. 2.
The going on to the perfect man of ephesians 4 is the going on of the new creature - to our fully transformed and glorified state - the going on to the redemption of the Body - our perfection comes with the shedding of this body of sin and death. But The “New Creature” that we are in Christ because of the Re-Birth and our having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him unto life.... is not the new man of Ephesians 2:15. They speak to two different things.
Who are the twain become one of Ephesians 2:15?
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One question to be answered is, when did Paul go from being in bonds for the hope of Israel to being the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles?
Excellent question!
First let me say that the HOPE of Israel is a person….
Jeremiah 14:8 O the hope of Israel, the saviour thereof in time of trouble, why shouldest thou be as a stranger in the land, and as a wayfaring man that turneth aside to tarry for a night?
Jeremiah 17:13 O LORD, the hope of Israel, all that forsake thee shall be ashamed, and they that depart from me shall be written in the earth, because they have forsaken the LORD, the fountain of living waters.
Acts 28:20 For this cause therefore have I called for you, to see you, and to speak with you: because that for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.
Having said that I would say that there was never a time that Paul was in bonds that he was not in bonds for the Hope of Israel.
But, to speak to your question as it relates to Acts 28:20…. What is Paul saying here? When Paul says I am in bonds for the hope of Israel , what is the hope of Israel? Is it the restoration of the earthly kingdom that Paul speaks of? Not if we look to Paul and the Scripture for the answer it is not!!!
If we back up to Acts 23, we see that Paul states that he is called into question by the powers that be in Jerusalem over his preaching of the RESURRECTION……
Acts 23: 6 ¶ But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.
In Acts 23:11 we see that Jesus felt that this was sufficient testimony of HIM that Paul could be released from his call to preach the Gospel in Jerusalem and was now sending him to Rome….
Acts 23:11 And the night following the Lord stood by him, and said, Be of good cheer, Paul: for as thou hast testified of me in Jerusalem, so must thou bear witness also at Rome.
Before the Jews could kill him, Paul is taken to Felix and before Felix he testifies:
Acts 24: 14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
Paul says I worship the God of my fathers after “The Way” which they call a sect. Christianity was considered a Sect of Judaism until 70 AD. The way is “ Christ”.
15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
16 And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void of offence toward God, and toward men. 17 Now after many years I came to bring alms to my nation, and offerings. 18 Whereupon certain Jews from Asia found me purified in the temple, neither with multitude, nor with tumult.
19 Who ought to have been here before thee, and object, if they had ought against me.
20 Or else let these same here say, if they have found any evil doing in me, while I stood before the council,
21 Except it be for this one voice, that I cried standing among them, Touching the resurrection of the dead I am called in question by you this day.
Paul says again here in Acts 24:21 that the HOPE of ISRAEL for which he is in bonds is the HOPE OF RESURRECTION. Not a restored earthly national Israel.
Here in Acts 26 Paul tells Agrippa what the Hope of Israel is that he is in chains for:
Acts 26: 4 My manner of life from my youth, which was at the first among mine own nation at Jerusalem, know all the Jews;
5 Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.
6 And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God unto our fathers: 7 Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope’s sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews.
8 Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead?
The Resurrection of the dead is the Hope of Israel that Paul is in bondage for when he stands speaks in Rome:
Acts 28: 19 But when the Jews spake against it, I was constrained to appeal unto Caesar; not that I had ought to accuse my nation of.
20 For this cause therefore have I called for you, to see you, and to speak with you: because that for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.
21 And they said unto him, We neither received letters out of Judaea concerning thee, neither any of the brethren that came shewed or spake any harm of thee.
22 But we desire to hear of thee what thou thinkest: for as concerning this sect, we know that every where it is spoken against.
23 ¶ And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.
So… If we look at the context it is clear that the Hope of Israel is the Resurrection and it was that Christ was raised that Paul was placed in chains. I don’t believe that Paul ever ceased from preaching the resurrection and so I believe that each time Paul was in bonds, Paul was in bonds for the Hope of Israel.
Further, It is in the epistle to the church at Ephesus that Paul called himself “a prisoner OF Christ, for you Gentiles, and this letter was written while Paul was imprisoned in Rome for the Hope of Israel. Aproximately 59-60 AD.
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I do not know, it is not stated, that all (pasa) the apostles - Eph. 3. 5 - received this knowledge, but if they did, it was not for them to administer it, for they did not.
I disagree and so does the scripture and the historical record:
James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
There are 11 tribes that are not Jews. James states here that he was a servant of Christ to them. Ephraim is the fullness of nations….
Genesis 48:19 And his father refuseth, and saith, ‘I have known, my son, I have known; he also becometh a people, and he also is great, and yet, his young brother is greater than he, and his seed is the fulness of the nations;’
Peter writes:
1 Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
Do you think that Peter here calls Jews strangers in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia and Bithynia? I think not! Peter was apostle to the other tribes that lived among the Gentiles in these areas. It was Peter who baptized the Gentile Cornelius and his family in Acts 10.
According to Cave’s Antiquitates Apostilcae, Matthew preached in the Parthian Empire, Thomas preached in Parthia, Media and Persia and Eusebius said that he also preached in Egypt; Bartholomew preached in Parthia, and Armenia; Phillip and Andrew in Scythia and upper Asia Minor; Peter in Britain; Simon the Zealot in Egypt, Cyrene, Lybia, and Britain and James in Spain, Ireland and Britain. Further, it is said that Mary lived her life among the Gauls of France and John too did preach there.
Jude and Matthias are said to have preached in what is today Modern Romania.
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1Pe 1:12
Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
This gives a clue though, that the angels could see that something was not written, that something would also have to occur. If we did not have the prison ministry, we would only have the history of Israel being overruled by Satan, with their end concluding in Acts, that they are blinded. If that is all God would have revealed, then it might appear that Satan had won. It is at this time that the announcment of the church takes place, chosen from before the...world.
I beg to differ: Lets look at Peter: First of all it is incorrect to assume that Peter is speaking to Jews here. He calls them strangers, but the Greek word for stranger here is one that speaks to them not being from this land where they are, but the rest of the context tells us that they are also not jews….
1Peter 2: 10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
Here these are clearly – those of the lost tribes of Israel they are not of Judah – they are those to whom God had declared in Ephrahim – you are not my people. These are the decendants of the Northern Kingdom that were scattered by the Assyrians in 721 BC.
Hosea 1:9 Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God.
This is even further confirmed here:
1 Peter 1: 18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
It was not under Judaism that redemption came through Gold and silver; under Judaism redemption came by circumcision and forgiveness and blessing by the blood of goats. It was the religion of Baal where the God’s were appeased with Gold and silver.
Next the issue of revelation…..
1Peter 1: 7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
These did not hear of Christ, when Christ was preached to the Jews in Jerusalem and they did not hear during the earthly ministry of Christ.
9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
10 ¶ Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
The salvation they heard of was preached by the prophets, who prophesied of the grace that would come to them….. this is the prophesy of the OT that peter speaks of telling of the coming of Christ to the house of Israel (Jacob) whose stick is in the hand of Ephraim – this is the bride having come after Pentecost – this is the church – prophesied by the OT prophets
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
This says that they did not know of what time or manner that Christ would come but they knew that he would come to these.
12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
I emplore you to meditate of this with a clear mind and not the mind of the Pauline dispensationalism that you have learned. This text in Peter smacks in the face of Pauline dispensationalism. Which is really as you said a misnomer – a better name would be ultra dispensationalism and wrongly dividing the word.
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If we did not have the prison ministry, we would only have the history of Israel being overruled by Satan, with their end concluding in Acts, that they are blinded. If that is all God would have revealed, then it might appear that Satan had won. It is at this time that the announcement of the church takes place, chosen from before the...world.
Please don’t get me wrong; I love Paul. I so relate to Paul. I have been to the Damascus road. I know what it is like to have God knock you to your knees and say now stand up and walk this way…. Paul understood so many things that the others did not understand to the same depth I am sure. But Israel was not overruled by Satan. The Jew – Jew is not synonomous with Israel – there are 12 tribes. The Jew was blinded and for our sakes. And for a time. Additionally, Paul had 4 missionary Journey’s and there is a whole lot of the world that was evangelized by the other Apostles in the first century. There was already a church at Rome years before Paul got there.
Paul had been to Arabia, Damascus, Tarsus, Cicilica, Antioch and Jerusalem preaching to Jew and Gentile and more than 14 years had passed before he and Barnabas were commissioned by the church at Antioch to make what we call his first Missonary Journey. It was his first missionary journey where he assisted Barbnabas and which founded the churches at Galatia and Lystra, and Iconium was perhaps then there is the Jerusalem Council Approximately 35 – 50 or 51 AD
He had preached in Thessalonica, Philppi, Beroea, Corinth and even Athens on his 2nd missionary Journey … all this was done before the first prison epistle was written!!! 51-52 AD
Paul wrote to the Ephesians while imprisoned in Rome. This was somewhere between 60 and 63 AD; the church at Ephesus had been established since Paul’s 2nd Missionary Journey. He spent another 3 years there on his third missionary Journey where he wrote the letters to the church at Corinth… this was perhaps 55 AD.
I do not see how it is possible to say that there would have been no church had there been no prison epistles. The epistles were written to a church that had begun to be established long before Ephesus.
Further, Peter may have been slow to get it; (It being that the gentile was part of the church) but Peter “got it” before the first book of the NT was ever written, much less the prison epistles of Paul.
Paul says himself that he preached to the Jew and the Gentile alike
Polycarp, Ignatius and Papias, the early church fathers that are the connecting link between the Apostles and the church of the 2nd century were pupils of the Apostle John… not Paul
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Where we read:
Eph 2:20
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone
I always thought more, that it referrs to the following verse:
Eph 4:11
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers
I think this because the first three chapters are the doctrinal, pointing ahead to the practical working in our lifes, of the last three chapters. I can't say all the apostles knew, I don't think Paul knew until after those dreadful words of Isiaah are quoted for the third time, because Paul remembers in Acts 26 that he was to receive further revalation, and Eph 3 makes it clear that this he did receive, and this he did. stating it was this mystery, or secret which completes the word of God (Col 1:25).
Ephesians is about the unity of the church – Paul says there are not two churches one Jew and One Gentile – there is one Gospel – it was given to me by God himself and in that Gospel the twain Jew and Gentile are one in Christ, and together we are the temple of the Holy God and Christ is the cornerstone; in this church there are many joints given to minister to the body each having its specific purpose, some apostles, some prophets some evangelists and some pastors and teachers, but together they are one body and that Body is Christ’s.
Ephesians 4: 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
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or, you got me thinking on this one, and probably, Paul is referrning to Christ as being the great apostle, making it the obvious, that Christ and Paul are the revealing apostles, or sent ones:
Ha ha ha ; If I got you thinking then at least that must mean that I have not bored you! This is a good thing? No?
Seriously though – Peter, though he did not live it always and Paul had to rebuke him harshly…. Peter claimed the ONE Gospel Jew & Gentile in Christ to Cornelius. Acts 10
And lastly I would ask you, if Paul does not mean the apostles all when he says apostles plural, then where else in the scripture do you divide “the Apostles” to mean only Paul?
One Bride and Body began at Pentecost – One Gospel – prophesied by the OT Prophets – taught by Jesus and by Paul and by the other Apostles – One Spirit- One Baptism – one Church. Jew and Gentile.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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epouraniois
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or, you got me thinking on this one, and probably, Paul is referrning to Christ as being the great apostle, making it the obvious, that Christ and Paul are the revealing apostles, or sent ones:
Heb 3:1
. Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
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epouraniois
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I do not know, it is not stated, that all (pasa) the apostles - Eph. 3. 5 - received this knowledge, but if they did, it was not for them to administer it, for they did not.
1Pe 1:12
Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
This gives a clue though, that the angels could see that something was not written, that something would also have to occur. If we did not have the prison ministry, we would only have the history of Israel being overruled by Satan, with their end concluding in Acts, that they are blinded. If that is all God would have revealed, then it might appear that Satan had won. It is at this time that the announcment of the church takes place, chosen from before the...world.
Where we read:
Eph 2:20
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone
I always thought more, that it referrs to the following verse:
Eph 4:11
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers
I think this because the first three chapters are the doctrinal, pointing ahead to the practical working in our lifes, of the last three chapters. I can't say all the apostles knew, I don't think Paul knew until after those dreadful words of Isiaah are quoted for the third time, because Paul remembers in Acts 26 that he was to receive further revalation, and Eph 3 makes it clear that this he did receive, and this he did. stating it was this mystery, or secret which completes the word of God (Col 1:25).
o,o,o, maybe Timothy was made an apostle, I always wonder what Paul gave him? As the word 'apostles' in Eph3.5 is certainly plural.
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Permit me to paraphrase here, saving some keystrokes for later.
I hear you saying that Paul is given a dispensation of grace, and that is for the preaching, and I whole heartedly agree. The dispensation of the preaching of the grace of God was given to Paul to preach. Yet, we are in a period of grace. God is not judging us as was the case,say,Acts5, or Act 28:26 when the tree would either stand or be cut down.
However, there became a time when that grace was preached, not to the Jew first, and also to the gentile, but was thereafter preached to a new creation.
Eph 2:15
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to create in himself of twain one new man, so making peace
I also do not believe this new man is the growing up from the babihood of Corinth or Hebrews. God had given them a specific hope, preached to them it's truth, showing them it could be fulfilled IF Israel as a nation repented and so turned.
I do not believe that God held out a lie to them, that He told them of their sure hope into their adoption with no intention of keeping His committment, and then so now it becomes this other calling. I believe each of the three adoptions are complete and true. The distinction are many, one of the strongest ones is the time of the choosings.
For ex, if I am a school teacher, and I know I have pre-divided the class (kingdom) into two groups (Jew&Gentile), but have made allowances for some individuals to have advantage (Israel) and excel amoungst themselves (believers), then I must wait for the outcome before the next thing in my corriquillum is ready to be announced - its a secret. And if then, I take the overcomers of that class, then introduce them to what was kept secret from them, another group of classmates that I had chosen, then the first two groups (Jew&Gentile), no matter who overcame, are not the same as those I had chosen (the church) from before and kept secret.
Well, that is what we have in the prison ministry, a group kept secret until it was time for the creation to be made manifest. I hope that is not confusion. It seemed right when I was typing.
Biblically however, in the example above, the overcomers (the remnant and gentile believers) rejected the previously chosen secret group (the church) and held onto their kingdom which is no longer in play, while the previously chosen (church) are ready and have been given entrance.
Bible : I do not believe the new man of Ephesians and the child of Acts is one and the same calling and company. I believe the church, His body, was a secret and was ‘created a new man’ as Adam was at the beginning, and that the going on to the ‘perfect man’ of Ephesians 4 does not mean growth from the childhood state of 1 Corinthians 13, but from the condition of the newly-created man of Eph. 2.
One question to be answered is, when did Paul go from being in bonds for the hope of Israel to being the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles?
sorry 'bout the length.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Of which I have an obervation helpforhomeschoolers, I believe you yourself have already recognized the difference between two of the dispensations,
ha ha ha, you found me out!
If I had to attach to myself a label, it would be something near progressive dispensationalist.
Truth is that I hate, hate, hate labels and find that I do not fit squarely in any box that I have yet seen on systematic theology.
I have a great deal of trouble with others that I have met that are very presumptuous about what those of us who do not divide the word according to the teachings of the great scholars of Pauline Dispensationalism believe.
The truth is that there is a ground between what these scholars themselves call Pauline dispensationalism and Convenant Theology.
You do not seem to me to be so presumptuous and I like that. We do I think understand the places that we are you and I in the unity of faith and Spirit and that encourages me that we may be able to have an adult discourse on this topic without it becoming an all out brawl in which one of us begins to speak of how foolish the other is in matters where we do not agree.
Is God dispensational - absolutely! That means I must also recongnize HIS dispensations.
I shall come back to your thread a little later today when I have time to give it the attention that it deserves. I am lookign forward to discussing these things with you. At this moment I am taking a quick coffe break from this mountain on my desk that has accumulated over the past 15 days while my husband has been ill. I think that I have only been home some 48 or so hours in the past days since Christmas and brother it shows!!
I want to leave you with one thought. I was really glad that you began this discussion with this scripture, because this is where my trouble begins with Pauline Dispensationalism, and while I agree that this is a misnomer, I believe that it is the nomer that is used in the circles of the scholarly like Chafer, and Stanford and Bullinger and separates them from men like Ironside or MacRae, anyway.. the scripture:
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At the time present, we are in what the Holy Spirit calls the dispensation of the grace of God.
Eph 3:2
If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
I would disagree with this most fundamental statement of Pauline dispensationalism and the interpretation of this verse in Ephesians.
I would say to this no... we are in the time that the Spirit calls the time of the dispensation of grace to the Gentiles... this is the time of the Gentiles. This is the time in which God is dispensing Grace to the Gentiles.
Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
I would say that God has dispensed Grace from the time that he covered Adam and Eve with skins and sent them out of the Garden, but during this time, HE is dispensing it to the Gentiles. This dispensation will end when the fullness of the Gentiles is come in.
When Paul speaks in Ephesians of the "dispensation of grace" that was given to him in regard to the Gentiles... I see that Paul speaks of his annointing... his calling.... the stewardship he was given to take THE Gospel... THE ONE Gospel that is and was the Gospel of Christ to the Gentiles.
This is not a new Gospel; it is the same Gospel, more fully understood. It is the same Gospel and paul has been given grace to take it to the gentiles.
Paul, I believe confirms this interpretation in verses 7 & 8........
7 of which I became a ministrant, according to the gift of the grace of God that was given to me, according to the working of His power;
8 to me—the less than the least of all the saints—was given this grace, among the nations to proclaim good news—the untraceable riches of the Christ,
Paul says I became a minster toward you of this Gospel by the GRACE OF GOD.
Paul did this willingly, but even if hge had not done it willingly - he was made a steward of it to take it to them... this is the grace dispensed that Paul speaks of in Ephesians 3:3. Grace dispensed to him who was the least of the apostles, yet he had perhaps the greatest task.
I mean you no personal disrespect in this, but I see that it is the misuse of this very scripture that the Pauline Dispensationalist has used to constuct a whole doctrine that Paul himself denies.
Paul clearly, I do not know how more clearly it could be said... Paul clearly says that this "secret" is revealed to the APOSTLES (all) and the Prophets.
Ephesians 3:4 in regard to which ye are able, reading it, to understand my knowledge in the secret of the Christ,
5 which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it was now revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit—
Paul says HIS Knowledge was not known when? by whom? OTHER GENERATIONS but is NOW revealed to the Apostles (all) and prophets in the Spirit.
Your thoughts?
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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helpforhomeschoolers wrote:
Bother Epouraniois make that last post a thread there are excellent points in it. Lets discuss this from that point of view. It would make an excellent topic.
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Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
The reply was to this post:
There is no such thing as Pauline Dispensationalism. This is a misnomer.
Heb 1:1
God who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
The Holy Spirit is the author of the Book.
2Pe 1:21
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
The Holy Spirit has made it known that man is 'sent' stewards. The word steward is of the word dispensation. So is the word administration. God has sent stewards to faithfully dispense various administrations. The word administration (dispensation) has to do with keeping a house in order. In this case it is God's house being kept in order.
At the time present, we are in what the Holy Spirit calls the dispensation of the grace of God.
Eph 3:2
If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
That the prisoner for the Lord for the hope of you gentiles brings us this good news gives no cause to disagree with God on His privalige and desire to provide the peoples of the earth with various faithful stewards that we may come to know Him, it is?
Perhaps if we all learn to use the words God has chosen to use, in the way God has chosen to use them, some of these labeling issues could receed into the background?
Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God;
We aren't in the dispensation of Noah's stewardhsip, nor of Davids, we are told that now:
Eph 1:10
That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him
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Of which I have an obervation helpforhomeschoolers, I believe you yourself have already recognized the difference between two of the dispensations, for being a Christian you do not feel called upon to put into practice all that Moses taught under the law, even though you believe the law to be as fully inspired as the Gospels and Epistles.
The same principle obtains between the various parts of the New Testament.
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