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Topic: Tithing before taxes?
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epouraniois
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Luk 18:12 is part of a parable people, and in this parable, it isn't the Lord tithing, it is the Pharisees, and it isn't the Pharisees, at the end of it, who 'went down to his house justified'.
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by wparr:
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Originally posted by Bloodbought:
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HisGrace
Jesus tithed: In his own words -
Luke 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
Jesus did not tithe; He said this was what the Pharisee did. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Yup Jesus didn't tithe 10%
He gave IT ALL - His WHOLE life
Oops - Come to think of it Bloodbought I may have been taken to task for that one before. ![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)
wparr, Jesus couldn't have been as poor as people think if he and the disciples had a treasurer to take of their funds - Judas. Judas was dipping into the funds, so there must have been some left over if he was able to take a portion.
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epouraniois
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Goog points HisGrace. Is it important to bear in mind that the Sabbaths and the tithings are portions of the letter of the law, and that the letter killeth? I can refer these verses:
Paul tells us the reason for the collections:
Gal 2:9
And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
Gal 2:10
Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.
Christ makes a vieled reference to tithes. The time of year was a few days before Passover, for the Lord had just ridden into Jerusalem on the *** . The people had cried Hosannah to the Son of David, yet only a few days pass and the same people cry "Away with Him, let Him be crucified". The fig tree often has fruit of two or three years' growth, and elaborate measures are laid down in the Talmud for computing the age of the fruit for tithing purposes. The time of figs had not yet come, and so if the Lord went seeking fruit He expected to find some of the last one or two years still hanging on the tree. This particular fig tree was remarkable for its display of leaves, and as leaves and fruit often appeared together, it seemed to give some sort of special promise. It was a fitting symbol of the nation of Israel. Their "hosannahs" proved to be "nothing but leaves", the season for figs had not yet come, and Israel will not. see the Lord they rejected until in the fullness of time they shall again say, "Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord" (Matt. 23:39).
It is also stated that `without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better' (Heb. 7:4-8). `If I may so say', continues Paul, 'Levi, who was in the loins of Abraham, paid tithes to Melchisedec. This shows that the Levitical order was imperfect, and that a change in the priesthood was necessary (Heb. 7:9-11). This change necessitated the transfer of the Melchisedec priesthood from earth to heaven: `For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Judah' (Heb. 7:12-14). For if He were on earth, He should not be a priest' (Heb. 8:4).
As far as their moneys going to the temple guards, I believe the temple guards to be Roman's, not Jews, remember, they were under occpation look at these verses:
1Co 13:3
And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
Or the upkeep of the synagogue, the officers of the Synagogue were : -
1. The Archisunagogos = the ruler of the Synagogue, having charge of its affairs, regulating the service, &c.
2. The Sheliach (or mal'ak) hazzibbor = the angel of the ekklesia, who was the constant minister of the Synagogue, to pray, preach, have charge of the law and appoint its readers. Hence he was called episkopos, or overseer. See 1Cor. 11:10. Rev. 1:20(thinking on false stars).
After Paul's conversion we read of his assaying to join with the disciples at Jerusalem and needing the mediation of Barnabas to break down the barrier of fear and suspicion that would have kept him out. It was at Jerusalem, also, that the decisive battle was fought for And all of these were graphed into the tree Israel, while she stood, but today she does not:
Gentile exemption from the bondage of the law (Acts 15), and it was at some such conference as this that he was asked to ‘remember the poor’ (Gal. 2:10). The fulfilment of this exhortation, in the shape of an offering collected in the churches, he was about to lay at the apostles’ feet in Jerusalem. While this was the ostensible object of his visit, however, the apostle began to realize that the Lord had another purpose in view. What this purpose was he did not, at the time, fully know, except that it was connected with his ministry and would probably cost him his liberty. His attitude, however, is one of heroic acceptance:
‘But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God’ (Acts 20:24).
WE know the letter killeth:
Rom. 2:27
By the letter and cireumcision.
29
In the spirit and not in the letter.
7:6
Not in the oldness of the letter.
2 Cor. 3:6
Not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
here is a scathing, yet illuminating judgment on the Pharisaic observance of "the letter that killeth", written by Dean Farrar in The Life and Work of Paul.
We know the carefulness about the colour of fringes, and the tying of tassels, and the lawfulness of meats and drinks.
We know the tithings, at once troublesome and ludicrous, of mint, anise, and cummin, and the serio-comic questions as to whether in tithing the seed it was obligatory also to tithe the stalk. We know the double fasts of the week, and the triple prayers of the day, and the triple visits to the Temple. We know the elaborate strainings of the water and the wine, that not even the carcase of an animalcula might defeat the energy of Levitical anxiety.
We know the constant rinsings and scourings of brazen cups and pots and tables, carried to so absurd an extreme, that on the occasion of washing the golden candelabrum of the Temple, the Sadducees remarked that their Pharisaic rivals would wash the Sun itself if they could get an opportunity.
We know the entire and laborious ablutions and bathings of the whole person, with carefully tabulated ceremonies and normal gesticulations, not for the laudable purpose of personal cleanliness, but for the nervously-strained endeavour to avoid every possible and every possible chance of contracting ceremonial uncleanness.
We know how this notion of perfect Levitical purity thrust itself with irritating recurrence into every aspect and relation of ordinary life, and led to the scornful avoidance of the very contact and shadow of fellow beings, who might after all be purer and nobler than those who would not touch them with the tassel of a garment's hem.
We know the obtrusive prayers, the ostentatious almsgivings, the broadened phylacteries, the petty ritualisms, the professorial arrogance, the reckless proselytism, the greedy avarice, the haughty assertion of pre-eminence, the ill-conceived hypocrisy, which were often hidden under this venerable assumption of superior holiness. And we know all this quite as much, or more, from the admiring records of the Talmud-which devotes one whole treatise to handwashings, and another to the proper method of killing a fowl, and another to the stalks of legumes-as from the reiterated 'woes' of Christ's denunciation."
Neither the the Pharisees or Sadducees sects had any existence, as such, till the return from Babylon.
Rom 15:25 But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.
Rom 15:26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.
Rom 15:27 It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.
These ‘carnal’ things would include food and drink and clothing, and other necessities of this life. The ‘natural’ is placed over against the spiritual, for the spiritual is supernatural and is enjoyed on resurrection ground. In complete contrast with the spiritual blessings of the Mystery, are the ‘carnal’ or ‘natural’ blessings of the law.
Lest we forget, a call to remembrance of Acts 4-5 where the soon coming of resurrection was the order of the day, where selling of all their possesions was the preperation for the Feast of the Tabernacles proper when they would become kingpriests in resurrection. That is what the believers were doing. Awaiting for all Israel to hear, in expectation the nation would, as they had, reTurn to the Lord and receive the times of refreshing.
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BORN AGAIN
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I agree with your Topic post, Trafield.
Matthew 23:23
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought you to have done, but not to leave the other undone.
BORN AGAIN
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Bloodbought
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quote:
HisGrace
Jesus tithed: In his own words -
Luke 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
Jesus did not tithe; He said this was what the Pharisee did.
Luke 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by epouraniois:
moneys were never redirected to the upkeep of the synagogues, or the building of more of man's things for man's world.
There was a temple treasury where everyone brought their offerings and treasures. It was quite a large area with a courtyard where it was also utilized as a gathering spot for the townsfolk. How do you think these areas were maintained?
There were even temple guards -
John 7:32
The Pharisees heard the crowd whispering such things about him. Then the chief priests and the Pharisees sent temple guards to arrest him
Jesus tithed: In his own words -
Luke 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
Tithes go to the church
Malachi 3:8
"Will a man rob God? Yet you rob me.
"But you ask, 'How do we rob you?'
"In tithes and offerings."
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epouraniois
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I would like to point out that in the Corinth letters, the apostle was bring back to Jerusalem moneys that were assured to go to the poorest of the Jews, and being that the apostles under consideration for receiving these moneys were under the power of the Holy Spirit, the moneys were never redirected to the upkeep of the synagogues, or the building of more of man's things for man's world. The moneys were never confused with OT tithing.
Joh 4:23
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Joh 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
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trafield
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Amen, Tim.
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timspong
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We are held to a much higher standard than just 10%, Everything we own is the property of the Lord. In Acts, the early church sold everything they had and gave as everyone had need.
I think once you prove your faith by giving, the Lord will use you to distribute his riches. However, my old Pastor used to say "Tithing on the net is gross"
I think it is more important that you give with a right heart than how much you give.
It is no good tithing 20 or 30% if you are thinking of it a penance or some kind of test that you resent.
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Yours in Christ
Timothy Michael Spong
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trafield
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I hate to come out and say that Dr. Jeremiah is wrong, in case it turns someone against him. He is a wonderful teacher. What I say is my own personal conviction for myself.
Good for you. But I would not have posted it if I did not believe it.
As I already stated, I love his teachings too...but he is not perfect and I am calling him on an error I feel he should be called on.
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by trafield:
But it is wrong and irresponsible for church leaders to be instructing their parishioners that tithing should be based on income before taxes.
I would hate to come out and say that Dr. Jeremiah is wrong, in case it turns someone against him. He is a wonderful teacher. What I say is my own personal conviction for myself.
2 Cor. 8:12 is a great scripture trafield. Everything we have belongs to God, and we should give him a liberal portion back. He loves a cheerful giver.
Luke 6:38
Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you
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trafield
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Here is another scripture that I feel backs up my original sentiments concerning tithing before taxes:
2 Cointhians 8:12
For if the willingness is there, the gift is acceptable according to what one has, not according to what he does not have.
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trafield
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quote:
However, this is something that is between us and the Lord. He may treat each person differently. We shouldn't get too legalistic and say that it is a must for everyone to tithe the gross amount.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
His Grace,
You might want to read the last lines of my original post again.
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by trafield:
I normally agree with most of Dr. David Jeremiah's teachings, but heard him this morning describing tithing as giving the first ten percent of your income, before everything else including taxes.
I am a tither, but disagree with this premise that the tithe is income before taxes, and do not believe it is a biblical teaching.
I have to agree with you on this one trafield. Personally I would tithe on what is physically in my hands or bank account. The rest belongs to the govt. or whatever.
However, this is something that is between us and the Lord. He may treat each person differently. We shouldn't get too legalistic and say that it is a must for everyone to tithe the gross amount.
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epouraniois
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Let us first admit that tithing falls under what we know to be strickly Hebrew tribal laws, and was never instituted to the gentiles. If there was any place in the Bible where tithing would have been instituted for the gentile, it would have been at the counsil at Jerusalem which convened for the purpose of deciding what laws the gentiles standing outside the synagoagues where to undertake. The main force centered around the Sabbath day keeping, but incompassed other laws as well, as can be seen by the four 'necessary things' that 'seemed good to the Holy Spirit' 'and to us'.
Tithing was not given a mention.
When the tribes tithed, only the rich were given to this, and they tithed animals, and they tithed the tenth animal, not the first animal.
There are other offerings the Hebrew tribes made, one of them which could be used today is called the love offering.
I do not believe that it is Biblical for Jews or non Jews tithing today, as tithing was a component of the LAW, but I have no Biblical issues with love offerings, as they are strickly volentary in nature, and most offers founded in love seems applicatable to me.
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trafield
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I normally agree with most of Dr. David Jeremiah's teachings, but heard him this morning describing tithing as giving the first ten percent of your income, before everything else including taxes.
I am a tither, but disagree with this premise that the tithe is income before taxes, and do not believe it is a biblical teaching.
Jesus says in Mathew 22:21 "to give to Caesar (the government) what is Caesar's and to God what is God's."
Let me give a hypothetical to illustrate further why I think that besides it being unbiblical, this 'before taxes' teaching also does not make any sense:
If this goverment decided to tax your income 95 percent, so that out of your $100.00 paycheck the goverment got $95.00 and you got $5.00. If you tithed 10 percent before taxes, you would need to tithe $10.00 from your $100.00 paycheck, putting you -$5.00 in the hole. Never mind the fact, that the pay check would have only been $5.00 because the taxes would have been taken out before you received the check!
If a person has the income and wants to tithe more than 10 percent, that is awesome. But it is wrong and irresponsible for church leaders to be instructing their parishioners that tithing should be based on income before taxes.
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