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Topic: brother Terral, who is worthy of worship?
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epouraniois
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When this is written:
Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Heb 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
Heb 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
The subject is that He, God, prepared for Himself a body, and that body is the one time offering for sin, the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
This is also why the words carry so much weight, and are given some three times:
Psa 8:5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honor.
Heb 2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honor, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Heb 2:13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.
Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Heb 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
v.13 refers:
Psa 91:1 He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
Psa 91:2 I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.
Heb 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
And this v.10 is the redemptive working out discription of the plan of the ages.
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BORN AGAIN
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So Terral, I was interested in this question: Is it sufficient to just say that Jesus was "the Son of God" and "the Mediator", without ever going into or considering whether Jesus is "God" or not?
Does it matter to know whether Jesus is "God", or does it not matter?
Is it enough to know that Jesus is called the "Son of God" and is "resurrected" and "is seated at the right hand of the Father", without questioning whether Jesus therefore has to be "divine" in order to be able to even "sit at the right hand of the Father" or anything like that?
So how do you make the Father God out of a verse like the following?
1 John 5:7 "... feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood."
thank you. BORN AGAIN
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BORN AGAIN
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Terral writes quote:
Hi Born Again:
Thank you for writing. Now your ploy is beginning to come into focus. {bold by BA}
a ploy? ![[happyhappy]](graemlins/happyhappy.gif) Yikes!
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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BORN AGAIN
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okay. This will hopefully be my last statement regarding this issue. If I said to you, "you are the son of a human", you would be a full human, right?
the human may work in the mailroom or be the CEO, but none of those "titles" diminish their "humanness" one iota.
Assuming you would say "yes" that they are "full human", why doesn't that same logic extend to saying "the son of God must be a full God"?
Your seeming unwillingness to admit that is what baffles me.
For you to continually repeat that he is "the Mediator" or "the Son of God" would be the same as the mailroom clerk repeating over and over "I am a mailroom clerk" when asked if he was a human and never admitting that he was a human.
thank you, BORN AGAIN
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BORN AGAIN
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hi brother Terral, I do make a distinction between God the Father and the Son of God, but only as Separate Persons.
I'm just surprised that you would not make someone with Jesus's talents a "full God" but only a "partial God". To me, anyone who can do what Jesus did, especially after Jesus's resurrection, qualifies as a "full God".
For isn't that precisely what the secular world says about Jesus? "No way" he could have resurrected. "Humans cannot resurrect; Jesus is dead."
God bless, ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif) BORN AGAIN
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BORN AGAIN
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Terral writes quote:
Born Again {wrote}>> Could you please clarify what Jesus is in terms of being God, or semi-God, or no God at all, or just a man?
Jesus Christ is the “Son of God.” John 1:34, Rev. 2:18. This diagram might help to show how He is God over just some things.{bold by BORN AGAIN}
If Jesus is God over "just some things", what is the rest of him then, in your opinion?
thank you, BORN AGAIN
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BORN AGAIN
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Terral, I just found the place in another thread where you "answer" my question "what then is the Son of God to you", and you answered about him being "a heavenly man"
I am interested in having you tell me what you think Jesus was in these terms: Was Jesus a God? A demi-God? Or a human? Or all of those? Or none of those? Or only the terms used in the Bible like "Mediator" and others, without being able to or interested in saying whether the "Mediator" is God, a demi-God, or human, or what?
Could you please clarify what Jesus is in terms of being God, or semi-God, or no God at all, or just a man?
I'd like to really hear this in an easy to understand sentence from you. thank you.
BORN AGAIN
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BORN AGAIN
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Terral writes to BORN AGAIN quote:
No sir. You are totally ignoring Strong’s Lexicon and the true definition of the term. If you wish to continue inserting your own English definitions and mindset into the Greek, then there is nothing else to Debate.
Instead of taking that "nothing else to debate" attitude, these are good opportunities for you to kindly teach me something I did not know before.
You know I have limited time, Terrak, so the Body of Christ and you in particular can help me and us out.
Help me out rather than make statements to me like "If you wish to continue inserting your own English definitions and mindset into the Greek, then there is nothing else to Debate."
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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epouraniois
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1Ti 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
There is an argument that the word 'God' should be 'He', but the end result is the same either way.
The fact that it is written He was seen of angels speaks volumes. Can you imagine the Great God becoming a little baby? I can't, I don't understand, I don't know how to understand exactly, but I believe it because it is written all over the Book. And I believe the entire Bible, not just the parts I already understand.
Imagine how many verses must be denied to reach the conclusion that the Bible does not state what is clearly written. Why, in order to reach the conclusion that so much of Scripture must be wrong we could have no way to tell if very much of it were true at all, I mean, where would we stop and start believing what is written if so much were to be summarily dismissed, and such an important thing as the One Lord?
Seen of angels. Remember the angels reaction at the Lord from heaven, Christ Jesus' conception? You just know they were singing in the heavens when these prophecies began to come to fruition.
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BORN AGAIN
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dear brother Terral, you wrote quote:
The key is that Cornelius was ‘prostrating himself’ before Peter, according to the ‘true’ Greek definition of the term. What is Peter saying – that it is okay to worship angels? No.
I understand what you said about "prokuneo" and "sebomai" (thanks for that info).
Let me ask you this. Was it not the custom in the Middle East for men to prostrate themselves before a man who is more important than they?
Here is Cornelius's account:
Acts 10
3 He {Cornelius} saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
5 And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon whose surname is Peter:
6 He lodges with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou ought to do.
Now I admit that nowhere it says above that Simon Peter was a man, but it can hardly be believed that Cornelius figured he was sending to Joppay for another angel.
I think Cornelius knew he was sending for a man to Joppa, and yet when Peter arrived, Cornelius "proskueno" himself before Peter.
Peter almost certainly knew that angels were not worshipped, but only God.
So I find it curious that Peter answered Cornelius's "proskuneo" by saying "stand up, I too am a man."
If the reason for Cornelius's "proskuneo" were only a matter of Peter's "greater importance", then would Peter not have said something like, "don't do it man, I am a fisherman of low social standing, it is you who I should be "proskuneo" to because you are an important centurion (over 100 soldiers)?
May the LORD God of Israel bless all who participate on this CBBS, BORN AGAIN
"Jesus...I love my Lord"
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epouraniois
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Essentially Terral, the baggage I carry is not my opinion, not my thoughts, not my understanding, but Scripture. I am addressing the following:
quote:
Epouraniois >> It is essential to our redemption and to the purpose of reconciliation that Christ shall be man. It is also the continual teaching of Scripture that He is God. Faith believes the complete statement.
OMG . . . How can you give one word of accurate commentary on any verse of Scripture, when you carry so much baggage in from everywhere else? John the Baptist (John 1:34) and Paul (Rom. 1:4) agree that Jesus Christ is the ‘Son of God.’ The ‘one Mesites’ of 1Tim. 2:5 cannot be the ‘one God’ and cannot be the ‘men’ for whom HE MEDIATES. If you wish to break the rules of the Greek, then that is the way the cookie crumbles . . .
And the Scripture declares God created..., the Lord from Heaven who is Christ Jesus created...
Isa 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Jehovah speaks in Ps 22, for example, that it was His hands and feet they peirced, not His Sons, and this would be the same Jehovah that created...and the same triune Condescension by which God has made Himself known. God the Father does not become such until God the Son is manifest. It is God the Holy Spirit which speaks of God the Son. God the Son comes in the volume of the Book. God the Son has the purpose of revealing God the Father. These three are one.
As far as the word 'and' in regarded, at least look it up in the English dictionary to see how many different ways it can be used, then, try the Greek.
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epouraniois
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There can be no two one Lords! Worship is ordained for Christ in Ph'p. 2:10. "And let all the angels of God worship Him." So says Hebrews 1:6.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
There are several ways to view this verse, one is by the kai explicative, where 'and' should be translated 'even'. Another is to remove the clause and get to the point, thus, "For there is one God, the man Christ Jesus".
‘For there is one God, and one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus’. The question of the Deity of Christ is not in view. It is the ‘Mediator’ and the ‘Man’ that is in question. None of these things, nor all that Scripture says concerning Christ as the Servant or the Son, the Sent One or the Sacrifice, the Shepherd or the Sufferer, can have the remotest influence upon the revealed facts of Scripture that this same Christ is also ‘The Great God’, ‘The High God’, ‘The Almighty God’, ‘The Creator’, and ‘Jehovah’. It is essential to our redemption and to the purpose of reconciliation that Christ shall be man. It is also the continual teaching of Scripture that He is God. Faith believes the complete statement.
Isa 48:11
For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.
Rev 5:12
Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honor, and glory, and blessing.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
John says God was manifest in the flesh, the word made flesh. Furthermore, "Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made...Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not...Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh.
Col 1:15
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Tit 2:13
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ;
2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Savior Jesus Christ
Of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ (tou theou hēmōn kai sōtēros Iēsou Christou). So the one article (tou) with theou and sōtēros requires precisely as with tou kuriou hēmōn kai sōtēros Iēsou Christou (of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ), one person, not two, in 2Pe 1:11 as in 2Pe 2:20; 2Pe 3:2, 2Pe 3:18.
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Not with any of the five senses, but in spiritual truth. Throughout the Bible there is a movement from the given types and shadows to the real.
The title Jehovah will provide a good example. In Genesis 21:33 we read (A.V.):
‘And Abraham planted a grove in Beer-sheba, and called there on the name of the LORD, the everlasting God’.
The meaning of the original is just the reverse of this. The words, ‘The Lord, the everlasting God’ are in the original Jehovah El olam, ‘Jehovah, God of the age’. In Exodus 3:14 we have the title ‘I Am’, which is expanded as follows:
‘The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob ... This is My name for ever (the age), and this is My memorial unto all generations’ (Exod. 3:15).
In Revelation 1:4 we have a New Testament unfolding of the title Jehovah, which supplements the ‘I am’ of Exodus 3:14:
‘Him which is (I am), and which was, and which is to come’.
This expanded title occurs in varied orders according to the requirement of the context, but in Revelation 11:17 we read (R.V. and critical texts):
‘O Lord God, the Almighty, which ART and which WAST’;
the future is omitted, the reason being:
‘because Thou hast taken to Thee Thy great power, and reignest’ (not hast reigned or will reign).
We shall have taken a step towards clearer understanding when we realise that the revelation of God is relative, and must always be considered as related to the purpose of the ages.
We know God now only through Christ and in no other way. The relationship which Christ bears to the ages may be seen by comparing the following Scriptures:
‘Christ is all and in all’ (Ta panta kai During the ages. en pasi Christos, Col. 3:11)
‘That God may be all in all’ (Hina e ho When the ages finish. Theos panta en pasin, 1 Cor. 15:28)
It should be seen then that we deal with God relatively, as His will determines, and that being from angels, prophets, and in Son. We aren't ever asked to understand that God was manifest in the flesh, but we are asked to believe it.
John saying, you will understand, speaking of those who deny the Deity of Christ, saying that such a one ‘hath not God’, and further, ‘receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed’. Therefore it is impossible to have fellowship with those who deny the Deity of Christ. This may sound narrow and bigoted, but it is the Scriptural attitude, and the Scriptures provide for no alternative.
Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning...22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
The Lord declares Himself to be the self-existent one, omnipotent, omniscient, immutable, almighty,
incomprehensible, holy, righteous, the creator, and the upholder of all things in heaven and earth, the searcher of hearts, and the judge of all. He it is Who alone can redeem, forgive and bless. He it is Who rightly claims our praise, our admiration, and our wholehearted love. He allows no one to approach to the high dignity which alone
belongs to Him.
What shall we say, then, when we find that every attribute of Deity, every claim to that which is the sole prerogative of God, is unreservedly given to the Lord Jesus Christ? The jealous God, Who has so fully testified to the gulf fixed between the nature of man and of God, has given not one word of caution, or warning, when in the inspired Scriptures He testifies concerning His Son. If the Lord Jesus Christ were a creature (as indeed He must be if He be not God, for there can be nothing intermediate), we should expect that the Word of the jealous God would give continually some such warning as, ‘If thou shouldest feel tempted to worship him (i.e. Christ) do it not, he is but the instrument of redemption, worship God. Though arrayed in all the majesty of God, beware, he is but a creature after all; honour God. Beware of idolatry, let your faith, hope, and love be entred in God, not in Christ’.
Do we find anything that even approaches to this? We must all confess that we do not.
1Ti 6:14
...until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1Ti 6:15
Which in his times he shall show, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
1Ti 6:16
Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power everlasting. Amen.
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BORN AGAIN
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brother Terral writes quote:
If you will allow me to cut you off at the pass (snip)... Scripture shows Cornelius worshipping Peter here in Acts 10:25, but NOT as God.
“When Peter entered, Cornelius met him, and fell at his feet and worshiped him.” Acts 10:25.
Let me meet you at the pass...
You "conveniently" omitted the next verse where Peter makes a specific point of rebuking Cornelius, telling him to "stand up for I myself am a man":
26But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.
Why would Peter have said that unless Peter said, in essence, you cannot worship a man?
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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epouraniois
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Tit 2:13
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ
Of course those who deny the Emmanuel (God with us) of the person of Christ when God was manifest in the flesh can only deny this verse as they do all the others stating the diety of Christs exhaulted position.
It is noteworthy that in Isa 40:3, we have one of the 134 emendations, where out of extreme (but mistaken) reverence for the Ineffable Name "Jehovah", the ancient custodians of the Sacred Text substituted in many places "Adonai", printed Lord, and LORD.
"The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Jehovah, make straight in the desert a highway for our God".
This is the verse John the baptist quoted, showing them exactly whose way was being prepared, and it is Jehovah, the anointed:
Joh 1:22
Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself?
Joh 1:23
He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Jehovah, as said the prophet Isaiah.
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BORN AGAIN
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dear brother Terral, I wanted to ask you this question that came to me today:
Who is worthy of worship?
Jesus never rebuked anyone for falling down and worshipping him:
John 9:38
And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.
Acts 10:25
And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.
Matthew 20:20
Then came to him the mother of Zebedees children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him.
Exodus 34:14
For you shall worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:
Matthew 4:9
And {Satan} said to him {Jesus}, All these things will I give you, if you will fall down and worship me.
Matthew 4:10
Then said Jesus to him {Satan}, Get yourself away from here, Satan: for it is written, You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve.
Matthew 8:2
And, look, there came a leper and worshipped him {Jesus}, saying, "Lord, if you will, you can make me clean."
Tell me, brother Terral, if Jesus was not God, how come that:
1. Jesus did not rebuke them when they worshipped him?
And how come that:
2. The Jews didn't stop the other Jews from worshipping him.
Jesus did not rebuke them and amazingly the Jews did not rebuke or stop the worshippers on an individual basis either.
brother Terral, I think it is significant evidence that Jesus as the Son of God is equally God as His Father. They worshipped him.
Philippians 2:6
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God.
And Kurios Yahshua-Jesus also said:
John 14:7
If you had known Me, you should have known My Father also: and from henceforth you know Him and have seen Him.
John 14:9
Then Jesus said to him {Philip}, "Have I been so long time with you, and yet you have not known me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; and how do you say then, 'Show us the Father?'"
brother Terrral, they worshipped him, does that not make Yahshua-Jesus God?
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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