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Author
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Topic: 7 FAULTY FOUNDATIONS OF POSTTRIBULATIONISM
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epouraniois
unregistered
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posted
Although I do not understand the reasoning set forth in the seven points, I would ask to take a look at what the word of truth says, and including some questions which deserve Biblical answers:-
1Th 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Please share the verses which show this is not the last trump, but some other trump. (all of them are numbered in Rev.).
Please consider the following words concerning the resurrection will take place, and remember these are believers here:-
Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
That is four times the Lord says this, and the Greek also makes this extremely emphatic, (abundance of emphasis to make a point).
Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
If Christ does not raise the believers at last day, but some other day before the last day, at some other trump before the last trump, then why would Christ lie to us like that, over and over and over and over?
And why too then, write dozens upon dozens more verses in supporting what He just said so very clearly, that the dead rise first, then after that the resurrection of those who are alive and remain?
Why would God calling this, in Rev. 20, 'the first resurrection', John seeing 'the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast', if were not so? Does God teach unsound doctrine, His words meaning other things than what they declare? That we need to add to them, change them before they can make His Will known? That God is somehow dependant upon man to add words, and remove verses from His given context before they are true?
Again, when is the resurrection Paul is speaking of during the Acts, for in the prison ministry there is an additional aspect of resurrection made known, but that is beyond the scope of this thread:-
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign forever and ever.
Rev 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out
Rev 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits
Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles
Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Rev 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
What is to be made in light of the following verses as they relate to what is being taught and beleived on in the many churches of today?-
Eze 13:20
Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.
Eze 13:21
Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver my people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
Eze 13:22
Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life
Joh 10:1
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
In trying to keep this post short, closing, eagerly awaiting the verses. Please, just the verses with the clear statements of fact. Ask question and so forth, but there is no need for concepts and such, just the pure, unadulterated Word of God, as I have so provided in the above examples. Thanks.
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BORN AGAIN
unregistered
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posted
brother Watcher writes quote:
1. post trib must be based on a denial of dispensationalism and all dispensational distinctions. It is only then they can place the church in "the time of Jacobs trouble" (jer 30:7) {bold by BORN AGAIN}
Jeremiah 30
7Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.
Watcher, that depends on when this Jacob's trouble occurs, or, possibly, occurred.
It may well be that the horrendous conditions existing in the land of Israel say from 60 A.D. to 70 A.D. were the "time of Jacob's trouble".
Josephus records that more than one million people died in and around Jerusalem in 70 A.D., and in the period preceding it the scicarii murdered many people.
Moreover, the house of Israel and the house of Jacob are currently still mixed among the nations, and they will remain among the nations until the LORD causes them "to come up out of their graves" and to "come into the land of Israel" (Ezekiel 36)
The Prince Jesus will cause that miracle to happen, so that means the Prince will be there too, so that means that that "cannot be the time of Jacob's trouble".
The time of Jacob's trouble therefore most likely referred to what happened to Israel in the 60-70 A.D. period, and if that be the case, it cannot be used as a basis for pretrib.
God bless, ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif) BORN AGAIN
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Watcher
Advanced Member
Member # 3589
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posted
7 faulty posttrib foundations
1. post trib must be based on a denial of dispensationalism and all dispensational distinctions. It is only then they can place the church in "the time of Jacobs trouble" (jer 30:7)
2. Consequently, the position rests on a denial of the distinctions between Israel and the church.
3. Posttrib must rest on a denial of the bible teaching concerning the nature and purpose of the tribulation period.
4. The posttrib position must deny all the distinctions observed in the bible between the rapture and the second advent, making them one and the same event.
5. Posttrib must deny the doctrine of imminence, and say that a multitude of signs must be fulfilled before the lord can come.
6.Many Posttribulationist denies any future fulfillment to the prophecy of daniel 9:24-27, claiming for it a historical fulfillment.
7. The posttribulationist must apply major passages of scripture that outline Gods program for Israel (matt 13, matt24-25, rev 4-19,) to the church in order to support its view. Post trib rests on denials of interpretation of the pretribulationist, rather than on a positive exposition of scripture.
DISTINCTIONS BETWEEN ISRAEL AND THE CHURCH
1. Israel has earthly promises in the covenants // church has heavenly promises in the gospel
2. The seed of Abraham: Israel- the physical seed, of whom some become a spiritual seed // church a spiritual seed.
3. Birth: Israel- physical birth that produces a relationship // church spiritual birth that brings relationship
4. Headship: Israel-Abraham // church-christ
5. Covenants: Israel-Abrahamic and all the following covenants // church- indirectly related to the Abrahamic and new covenants
6. Nationality: Israel- national and individual // church- from all nations
7. Divine dealings: Israel national and individual // church individual only
8. Dispensations: Israel- seen in all ages from Abraham // church seen only in this present age
9. The holy spirit: Israel- came upon some temporarily // church indwells all
10. Two farewell discourses: Israel-olivet discourse // church- upper room discourse
11. Jesus return: Israel- in power and glory for judgement // church to recieve us to Himself
12. Marriage: Israel- unfaithful wife // church - bride
13. Judgements: Israel- must face judgement // church- delivered from all judgement
14. Priesthood: Israel had a priesthood // church is a priesthood
These distinctions between Israel and the church make it impossible to identify the two into one program, which it is necessary to do if the church goes through the seventieth week. These distinctions give further support for a pretrib rapture.
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Watcher
Whoso rewardeth evil for good, evil shall not depart from his house. He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.
Proverbs 17:13,15
Posts: 146 | From: Earth | Registered: Jul 2004
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