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Topic: Question regarding Dispensationalism.
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timspong
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If anyone is confused, please clarify with your anointed spiritual leader (ie pastor, vicar etc.). A lot of what is spoken of here is erroneous and can be very contrary to the position held by your church.
Your Church, the Bible and the Holy Spirit should be the source of your growth in Christ. Not through the corrupt minds of anonymous individuals who’s motives are not clear or even rational.
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Yours in Christ
Timothy Michael Spong
Posts: 146 | From: Lagos, Nigeria | Registered: Nov 2005
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epouraniois
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BORN AGAIN
Thank you for picking me up, yes, you are correct, as I had absentmindedly forgotten to distinguish between the reward and the common salvation.
The overcomers also included Timothy, whom I had forgotten to include in the names above as being partakers of that heavenly calling and out resurrection, exanastasis, when all those in Asia had turned away from the apostles first teachings regarding the mystery body.
It is noteworthy, that John's gospel is the only book in the Bibl which addresses non believers, to the end that they might believe. In it are eight interpelations, which are of tremendous import.
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BORN AGAIN
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epouraniois writes quote:
Yes to Ezekiel, but questionable as to "just as Christendom has been made clean?", for where is it written that Christendom is made clean by failing to rightly divide the word of truth? {bold by BORN AGAIN}
![[happyhappy]](graemlins/happyhappy.gif) Yikes!
Re the bolded part, that is written nowhere, thank God.
We were made clean when we believed in the Lord, were we not?
John 13:10
Jesus said to him, He who is washed needs not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and you are clean, but not all.
We are clean by believing, not by rightly dividing the Word of Truth.
God bless, BORN AGAIN ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif)
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epouraniois
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quote:
Born Again
But does it not appear from Ezekiel 36 that the LORD will put His Spirit in them and make them clean, just as Christendom has been made clean?
Yes to Ezekiel, but questionable as to "just as Christendom has been made clean?", for where is it written that Christendom is made clean by failing to rightly divide the word of truth?
I read that it is the many who are deceived, who love not the truth, and for this cause the Lord shall send them strong delusion lest they be saved, is that what you read?
But to Ez, yes, and in many many more places as well, Rom 11:29, 'For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance'. Rom 11:15, 'For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead'?
This furthers God's statements that the mystery body church is not the same as that which is now in set into thier abayance.
The opening section of Ephesians is threefold, and deals with:
1. The WILL of the Father (Eph. 1:3-6).
2. The WORK of the Son (Eph. 1:7-11).
3. The WITNESS of the Spirit (Eph. 1:12-14).
In Ephesians 1:3-6 we have ‘The Will of the Father’.
WHAT does the believer inherit? The answer is: ‘All spiritual blessings’. WHERE will this inheritance be enjoyed? The answer is: ‘In heavenly places’. WHEN was this will made? The answer is: ‘Before the foundation of the world’. WHO will inherit? The answer is: those who receive ‘The adoption’. WHY did the Father thus choose? The answer is: ‘The good pleasure of His will’.
Can anyone give verses stating that the Israelites or the gentiles are so blessed to inherit such a high calling by adoption? The Bible declares that noone can, for God says they cannot, but why? Because this was a secret not revealed until after Israel was set aside, and anyone and anything attached to them. A secret that was hid in God, not in the Bible, therefore this secret is unsearchable, Eph 3:8.
Only Paul, Luke, and Mark are said to have overcome into this new body called the church, setting aside their Jewish traditions, their hope of the kingdom come to the earth, in favor of these exceeding riches, trying the things that differ, approving that which is more excellent, even as faithful Abraham did of that country he so walked and measured, nevertheless he looked for a city that is heavenly.
In the mystery church, we are not looking for a city that is heavenly, as our hope is the inheritance of the saints in the light, i.e., the holiest of all.
Of those which are before (Acts kingdom period and calling):
‘If their fall has brought about so much, what must we not expect as a result of their restoration?’ (Rom. 11:12).
The failure of Israel is expressed in the following terms:
* the ‘fall’ (paraptoma: verse 11);
* the ‘diminishing’ hettema: verse 12);
* ‘casting away’ (apobole: verse 15);
* ‘broken off’ (ekklao: verse 17);
* ‘spared not’ (pheidomai: verse 21);
* ‘blindness’ (porosis: verse 25);
* ‘enemies’ (echthros: verse 28);
* and ‘concluded in unbelief’ (sugkleio: verse 32).
In these eight terms, we behold the ‘severity’ of God (verse 22). The ‘fall’ of Israel is likened to the ‘offence’ of Adam, the word paraptoma being translated ‘offence’ in Romans 5:15,16,18 and 20. The word literally means ‘to fall aside’. Israel follow very much in the steps of Adam. Both fail of their high purpose, and are set aside; and both will realize their destiny only when ‘in Christ’. Just as in Romans 5:20 the abounding ‘offence’ was overruled by God unto much more abounding grace, so in Romans 11:12,15, we discover something of the same argument -- an argument which, approached from the wrong angle, has been resolutely set aside in Romans 3:7
In Deuteronomy 27 and 28 Moses gives the people the solemn words that were to be pronounced from Mount Gerizim and Mount Ebal. Among the blessings we find:
‘And the Lord shall make thee the head, and not the tail; and thou shalt be above only, and thou shalt not be beneath’ (Deut. 28:13).
This high position Israel forfeited because of unbelief, but a day is coming when the Redeemer shall come to Zion (Isa. 59:20), and Israel shall be restored, and enter into their high glory:
‘The nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted’ (Isa. 60:12).
With this high destiny in mind, coupled with Israel’s terrible fall, the apostle uses the word ‘diminish’. The primary meaning of hettaomai is to be overcome as in battle or in a law-suit (2 Pet. 2:19,20), and so to be inferior (2 Cor. 12:13). Israel, by their unbelief and failure to repent, were losing their high prerogatives, set out so fully in Romans 9:4,5. This high position, now in danger of being forfeited, was not, of course, given to them on account of any intrinsic worth in themselves, but rather because of their place in the scheme of blessing. And so, when they fail, the apostle speaks of them as being ‘cast away’ -- as the blind man is said to have cast away his garment, that apparently encumbered him, or as the ship that was wrecked was ‘a loss’ (Acts 27:22). Israel had made shipwreck of their calling; they had fallen aside; they were becoming inferior; they were ‘a loss’. And so through all the terms used by the apostle to explain their condition.
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BORN AGAIN
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epouraniois writes quote:
If the olive tree survived the crisis of Acts 28, then where is it? It cannot be the scattered nation of Israel, for they are manifestly lo-ammi.
It cannot be any of the denominations of Christendom, for if this were true it would follow that the denomination concerned would eventually receive back the broken-off branches of Israel, and resolve itself into the restored nation of Israel -- which is quite impossible, for the restored Israel will be made up of the very nation that is now scattered.
But does it not appear from Ezekiel 36 that the LORD will put His Spirit in them and make them clean, just as Christendom has been made clean?
Ezekiel 36
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
How are these returned Israelites different from us, epouraniois?
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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epouraniois
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Personally, I cannot seem to comprehend that any of man's establishments are more important than that which we are so warned of, namely of the shame involved when a believer fails to rightly divide the word of truth. Obviously it must be divided somehow, and we do not have to guess, for the Lord Himself has made known the purpose of His will.
And it is truth, there are most certainly believers in Christ, yet who are prevented from being ‘faithful’ by reason of undispensational views, tradition and denominational bonds and practices, the fear of men, the refusal to contemplate a lonely path, ‘the other things’ that choke the Word, fail to ‘see’ the transcendent glory of the calling here revealed, who say with the traditionalists who were before them ‘the old is better’.
To them I would make a few points and some questions:
basis of expectation during the Acts were the promises "made unto the fathers".
If the olive tree survived the crisis of Acts 28, then where is it? It cannot be the scattered nation of Israel, for they are manifestly lo-ammi. It cannot be any of the denominations of Christendom, for if this were true it would follow that the denomination concerned would eventually receive back the broken-off branches of Israel, and resolve itself into the restored nation of Israel -- which is quite impossible, for the restored Israel will be made up of the very nation that is now scattered.
The promises made to the fathers never extended beyond "the Bride" or "the Heavenly Jerusalem", but in Ephesians we have "the Body" and a sphere "far above all".
What promise is in view? There is but one promise in the Prison Epistles. The Gentiles who formed the church of the One Body were by nature
"aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise" (Eph. 2:12),
but through grace they became
"fellow-heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ by the gospel; whereof I (Paul) was made a minister" (Eph. 3:6-7).
This promise takes us back to the period of Ephesians 1:4, "before the foundation of the world":
"According to the promise of life, which is in Christ Jesus . . . according to His own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus, before the world began" (before age-times) (2 Tim. 1:1,9).
It is this one unique promise that will be realized when the blessed hope before the church of the One Body is fulfilled. Its realization is described by the Apostle in Colossians three:
"When Christ, Who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with Him in glory" (Col. 3:4).
Who then are the 'faithful'?
By virtue of redemption the believer is a ‘saint’ even though his walk may be far from ‘saintly’ (see 1 Corinthians where the Corinthians are called ‘saints’ yet were rebuked for gross immorality). It is otherwise with the word ‘faithful’. No one is ‘faithful’ by reason of redemption, faithfulness is an act of a responsible agent, however much it may be the outcome of Divine grace. It is obvious that pistos ‘faithful’ cannot be translated simply by the word ‘believing’ in such passages as:
‘But God is faithful’ (1 Cor. 10:13).
‘But as God is true’ (2 Cor. 1:18).
‘This is a faithful saying’ (1 Tim. 1:15).
‘Faithful high priest’ (Heb. 2:17).
The word occurs in the Prison Epistles nine times as follows:
‘The faithful in Christ Jesus’ (Eph. 1:1).
‘Faithful minister’ (Eph. 6:21).
‘The ... faithful brethren’ (Col. 1:2).
‘A faithful minister’ (Col. 1:7).
‘A faithful minister’ (Col. 4:7).
‘A faithful ... brother’ (Col. 4:9).
‘Faithful men’. ‘Faithful saying’. ‘He abideth faithful’. (2 Tim. 2:2,11,13).
More than half the passages cited from the Prison Epistles, are connected with service.
The fourfold revelation of blessing in Ephesians are beyond compare, futhermore interlinked with four statements of purpose, immutable grace, irreversible will, unfaltering counsel, and unalterable purpose.
1. Eph. 1:4. ‘According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world’.
2. Eph. 1:5. ‘According to the good pleasure of His will’.
3. Eph. 1:9. ‘According to His good pleasure which He hath purposed in Himself’.
4. Eph. 1:11. ‘According to the purpose of Him Who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will’.
Comparing the things that were different helped me understand that God has made a new church, just as it is written, to deny this new creation is to deny the utterances given the apostle by the Lord, or to so claim that the revelations were and are false.
We read in the future that when Israel is again taken up as a nation, there again will be unequality and divisions there, but not so in this mystery body.
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Bloodbought
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Good link HisGrace. Whatever a dispensationalist is they are not Baptist.
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HisGrace
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We have to remember that dispensationalism and ultra/hyper-dispensationalism are two different things. It is like talking about apples and oranges.
Here is a link which, to me, explains the differences quite clearly. ultra-dispensationalism
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Watcher
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The word "dispensation" is used in the King James Version, so that may be why some may not have heard of it before. Note - There are varying views of dispensationalism, so consider it a "loose" term.
Some of the more "famous" names of dispensational authors in the last 100 years are Clarence Larkin, Sir Robert Anderson, Cornelius R. Stam, Charles F. Baker, etc.
Below is an example of a "dispensational timeline" chart:
www.graceimpact.org/rightdv.html
The book "Dispensational Truth" by Clarence Larkin has been without question, the most helpful Bible study book I've ever read. He authored many books, and made most of the charts used in our Bibles today.
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Watcher
Whoso rewardeth evil for good, evil shall not depart from his house. He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.
Proverbs 17:13,15
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Bloodbought
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Hi epouraniois.
I gather from what you say that you are self-taught with your own shade of dispensational doctrine.
Does anyone know the origin of Dispensationalism or which denominations have dispensationalist views, or is it a doctrine with different shades learned by individuals with no denominational tag?
Posts: 822 | From: Ireland | Registered: Feb 2005
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epouraniois
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For me, it never entered my mind that this Bible wasn't speaking of an outworking where God shows His pland of the ages. I would never be able to question that that this is a progressive revelation for a progressive outworking. God has given us His view, a beginning point, and an end point, and that all else lies within these boundaries, and we are not expected to know anything that isn't expessely written.
This is why we need to stay close to the word of God, they reveal Him. We are included in this plan, but the Bible is not about us. The One Great Object of the Word must be ever present with us, when we study the Word of God, as a whole, is not to treat it as something which we have to interpret, but as being that which God has given in order to interpret Himself and His will to us.
He hath declared three seperate adoptions, each to their own sphere of blessing. The church of the one body is an heavenly one. This was not made known until after the setting aside of Israel's preeminent stature as the chosen channel of blessing to the nations.
We don't have to look to hard to see that Israel has not and is not being a blessed channel of God to the nations, that those callings are now in abayance.
Truth for today dictates that we listen to that which Christ told the apostles they could not then bear, but would later be shown. Truth is found following those two short words, 'but now'.
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epouraniois
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I didn't know I was labled a certain type till recently. I actually had to look it up, to see what you meant that I was a dispensationalists. I only used the word because God has found need to make use of it. All along, I thought I was just acknowledging that which the Bible sets forth, acknowledging the differences, and the callings of God as they are written, simply believing them as they stand.
If that makes me an ulta dispensationalists, then I will take that as a compliment if this is to mean that I am one who sees in resurrection, a glorious and heavenly calling, an inheritance in the saints in light in the superheavenlies far above all where Christ takes His seat, not confusing this with any other callings of God, callings which are 'without repentance' = without change of mind.
Why is it strange that God declares He created an heavenly family before the foundation of the world began? How can this inheritance possibly be the same as those callings made since the foundation fo the world, those others which are sure to come, being earthly, on the earth, and in the heavenly Jerusalem which rests also on the earth.
Far above all heavens is the described position of the mystery body. All callings are true, each sphere of blessing has for it's inheritance, one of 'adoption', which means 'to place as a son', and there are three firstborn by adoption, each with their own sphere of blessing, blessing in which the Lord is able to bless to the uttermost.
I would be pleased to find my undeserving self in any adoption I would be called, however, I believe it is firmly founded that at the time present, the calling is to the one body, called a mystery which had been hid in God but now is made known.
Paul did not confuse the mystery with any other callings, he made distinctions and told us to rightly divide the word of truth.
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Bloodbought
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What I wanted to find out was, is this Baptist teaching?
Thanks.
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Watcher
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7 AGES IN HISTORY FROM THE BIBLE
1. INNOCENCE (Genesis 1:28-3:6) This was the shortest of the dispensations and ended in the fall into sin by the parents of the human race.
2. CONSCIENCE (Genesis 3:7-8:14) The title "conscience" comes from Romans 2:15 and designates the time between the fall and the flood.
3. HUMAN GOVERNMENT (Genesis 8:15-11:9) After the flood, God said he would not directly judge man until the second coming. Thus, a human agency known as civil government was divinely established to mediate and attempt to restrain the evil of man.
4. PROMISE (Genesis 11:10- Exodus 18:27) This period is dominated by the call of Abram and the promise, both physical and spiritual, made to him and his descendents.
5. LAW/ISRAEL (Exodus 19- John 14:30) The Israelites were never saved by keeping the law. Instead, it was how they, as a redeemed people, were to live. It was their rule of life that governed every aspect of living. But it was temporary until the coming and fulfillment by christ.
6. GRACE/CHURCH (Acts 2:1- rev 19:21) The rule of life for the church is grace. All aspects for life are to spring forth from grace for the church age believer. The extent of Gods grace is expanded to all peoples through the worldwide offer of the gospel.
7. KINGDOM (rev 20:1-15) During Jesus 1000 year reign from Jerusalem ( upon his return to the earth), all of the promises made to Israel will bw fulfilled to Israel as a nation. These promises will have been accomplished by Jesus on behalf of a now-converted Israel. The church will also reign and rule with christ as His bride. Becasuse Israel will be in its glory, the gentiles will also reap great blessings as well.
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Watcher
Whoso rewardeth evil for good, evil shall not depart from his house. He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.
Proverbs 17:13,15
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Watcher
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Many people have the wrong impression of Dispensationalism because of something called Ultra-Dispensationalism. Ultra-Dispensationalism tries to put more emphisis on one part of the Bible than another, and that is wrong.
However, The lack of understanding of the "Dispensation of Grace" (Ephesians 3:2) is the primary reason for the misunderstandings within Christianty today.
For example many people will say they do or do not believe Baptism is required for salvation, but without an understanding of Dispensation you can debate either side indefinitely.
You will find Dispensation taught amoung leading Bible teachers such as Lester Sumerall and John Hegee. As Lester Sumerall said "You can not fully understand the Bible without understanding Dispensation."
God does not change, but he clearly changes he dealings with mankind. At least that is what the Bible says.
1 Corinthians 12:4-6
4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
Strong's Concordance - Dispensation
From G3623; administration (of a household or estate); specifically a (religious) “economy”:—dispensation, stewardship.
Many questions can not be answered without understanding Dispensation. Would those that dispute Dispensational teaching please answer these questions. Here are a few from the 12 at the link below.
www.havefaith.org/dispensation.htm
Jesus instructed the Apostles "15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. (Mark 16:15 ). And Jesus said “19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:” (Matthew 28:19 ) Paul said " 7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter" (Galatians 2:7-8 ). "15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:" (Acts 9:15 ).
(1) Were the Apostles to go to "all the world" and “all nations” but only to the circumcised (Jews / children of Israel)? Was Paul to go to the uncircumcised (Gentiles), and if so why was Paul to bear the Lord's name "before the Gentiles, and kings, AND the children of Israel" ?
(2) Why did Jesus tell the Apostles during his earthly ministry " Go not into the way of the Gentiles" but "go not except unto the lost sheep of Israel" ?
Matthew 10:5
5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
(3) What did Jesus mean when he told the "woman of Canaan" (a gentile) ", I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." ? Why did he refer to the Jews as the children and her (a gentile) as the dogs ? (Matthew 15:21-28 )
(4) What did Paul mean when he stated "8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:” (Romans 15:8 )
True Dispensational teaching is totally scriptual, but I would only judge any churches teachings by how they line up with scritpture. Ask them what they believe, then ask others here for scriptures that support or dispute what they teach. They did not make up the word, the Apostle Paul did, and why did he use that word ?
Dispensation: 1 Corinthians 9:17, Ephesians 1:10, Ephesians 3:2, Colossians 1:25
Understanding the Bible (Dispensation)
www.matthewmcgee.org/dispensa.html
What is the "dispensation of the grace" (Ephesians 3:2) by William R. Newell
www.havefaith.org/graceandpeace.htm
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Watcher
Whoso rewardeth evil for good, evil shall not depart from his house. He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.
Proverbs 17:13,15
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Bloodbought
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Which denominations have dispensationalist views, or are they a cult?
Thanks.
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