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Topic: How important is your belief in the millennium/ tribulation/ rapture etc
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epouraniois
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Rhema and Agape be multiplied unto you through the LORD Jesus Christ.
Now abides Faith, Hope, and Love. The greatest of these is Love.
Revelation is to make known that is true, but that it is not to the Hebrew nations is myth, for it is written to her, that she might know they signs when God again takes up His mighty work with Israel.
We can read it, but we are not the servants so mentioned, for our calling and our hope is given in the apostles prison ministry for the hope of you gentiles.
The gentile church looks to appearing with Christ when Christ appears.
The Jews were the servants of God and looked forward for His coming.
There are over 285 OT quotes in Revelation, demonstrating the symbols are for the Hebrew nations which are listed and emumerated. In the prison epistles there are less than 10, perhaps only 5 OT quotes. This is because what our hope and calling is was not written in the OT, it was hid in God.
Taking some of Israel's things here, some of the churches things there, and we have all of a sudden, an amalgomation bringing in the doctrines of man.
The doctrines of man read the Book as if it were entirely alagory and only literal when they come to something they covet. If we read the whole of the book as if it is only allegory, that whatever we read has some other meaning which WE must thereafter apply, then we can never be sure that we have the correct interpretation because it throws the door wide open to human opinion, and that is the very thing we wish to avoid when we open up this great Book. The only purpose of opening the Book is to receive God's opinion and we shant be doing that if we add what we think to what God is telling us. In other words, we need to learn to let God speak for Himself. If we need to add even one word of our own, then it is a sure sign we have departed from truth.
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by epouraniois:
Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will show thee things which must be hereafter.
yeah, so the voice John heard, telling John to come up so John could be given this message to bring back and write about was as John said, "voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me".
What does that have to do with a pre trib rap...?
Yes, for John and 'the other servants.' Revelation is all about the fulfillment of prophecies and the latter days before Jesus' Second Coming.
Revelation 1:1-3 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.
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epouraniois
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Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will show thee things which must be hereafter.
yeah, so the voice John heard, telling John to come up so John could be given this message to bring back and write about was as John said, "voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me".
What does that have to do with a pre trib rap...?
I have asked for some verses, but am told what I freely admit, that I do not know why you claim something is in the Bible when it is not.
I never claimed to have or desire understanding, saying often that my understanding is of no value.
But at the same time I also claim to seek God's understanding, so if so great a teaching, as that the hope for believers during the Acts was to be taken away before tribulation and before Christ comes, to simply provide the verses so I can search and see.
I read all those posted, there is nothing about a rptr in them unless we add words, subtract others, forgo the entire context in which they are given, and foresake the stern warnings of that which God says He is 'against'.
You don't think the return of Christ at the last and seventh trumpet 'represented terror'?
Amo 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.
You know folks, God can't be expected to repeat the Bible in every verse, it is us who can be expected to remember what we have read and add it according to instruction:
precept upon precept
precept upon precept
line upon line
line upon line
here a little
there a little
spiritual with spiritual
rightly dividing
the word of truth
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HisGrace
Notice that 1 Cor.15:52 says the the last trumpet, not seven trumpets. This means the last trumpet before the taking away of the church.
ARe you denying that there are 7 trumpets, FURTHERMORE are you denying that the Greek word "last" = the furthest one out from the first? If so, you'ld better look it up, because it does:
LAST
G2078
ἔσχατος
eschatos
Thayer Definition:
1) extreme
1a) last in time or in place
1b) last in a series of places
1c) last in a temporal succession
2) the last
2a) last, referring to time
2b) of space, the uttermost part, the end, of the earth
2c) of rank, grade of worth, last, i.e. lowest
Part of Speech: adjective
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: a superlative probably from G2192 (in the sense of contiguity)
Citing in TDNT: 2:697, 264
LAST
G2078
ἔσχατος
eschatos
es'-khat-os
A superlative probably from G2192 (in the sense of contiguity); farthest, final (of place or time): - ends of, last, latter end, lowest, uttermost.
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by epouraniois:
I still would say that none of my questions have been answered.
What does this say?
1Th 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Your questions haven't been answered, because you don't understand the proper sequences of events, which I have tried to explain.
1 Corinthians 15:52
It will happen in a moment, in the blinking of an eye, when the last trumpet is blown. For when the trumpet sounds, the Christians who have died will be raised with transformed bodies. And then we who are living will be transformed so that we will never die.
~This scripture obviously is speaking about the same episode as in 1 Thess.4.
It is also referred to in Rev.4:11 "Then as I looked, I saw a door standing open in heaven, and the same voice I had heard before spoke to me with the sound of a mighty trumpet blast. The voice said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must happen after these things"
~Notice that 1 Cor.15:52 says the the last trumpet, not seven trumpets. This means the last trumpet before the taking away of the church. Rev. 4:11 speaks about the same 'coming up' and further on in Rev.8 we only begin to hear about the seven trumpets during the tribulation, nothing being said about the last trumpet or being taken away.
During the tribulation we hear about 'the seven angels with the seven trumpets prepared to blow their mighty blasts.'
I would like to quote the scriptures showing what each trumpet represents, but it would be too lengthyt. However, we can see in Rev. 8 - 11 that they all represented terror, unlike the trump mentioned in 1Thess, 1 Cor. and Rev.4.
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epouraniois
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I still would say that none of my questions have been answered.
What does this say?
1Th 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Please show me where Christ returns at some other trumpet with a shout other than the last, or seventh trumpet.
Chapter and verse please.
2Th 2:2
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
It is clear from the verse that it is the day of Christ in subject, with the object of not being deceived. What ever this falling away turns out to be, we read the son of perdition, and the falling away comes before 'that day';
Is it resonable to say that whatever they are going to fall away from, it will lead into deception? We can accept that the words translated 'falling away' is a correct rendering for the word 'departure'.
Can departure from earth lead to deception?
How about departure from the truth?
Revelation has Satan arriving defacto at the sixth trumpet and Christ coming after (in time), with a shout and the sounding of the seventh trumpet, &c &c.
I believe that it is just possible we are now in the 5th trumpet, but it is an opinion.
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epouraniois
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quote:
BornAgain
Do you believe what happened to Old Nation Israel was a miniature or micro-scale of what will happen on a larger scale with the entire world?
Just realizing the depths of this difficult (all of a sudden) question;
I believe we have some guidance for this question, albeit in resurrection:
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations...
And for the time that is so far advanced upon us, even now, and the subject of this thread:
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
NOte that in v. 9, the word 'after' is to mean, afterwards in time.
It is afterwards in time He whose coming is to destroy the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders
and the world will be deceived because they will beleive Satan is Jesus, and they will not look for the Lord from heaven to manifest, because they will have fallen in love with the instead of Christ, wherefore it is written:
Jer 13:26 Therefore will I discover thy skirts upon thy face, that thy shame may appear.
this has to do with the women who are with child in the great tribulation of Mat24,
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give **** in those days!
Why would Christ state such a thing about a beautiful child? It is because this is speaking spiritually, about those who have brought forth the friuts of spiritual adultery by false doctrine.
And look at the days they are in (questioning) when this warning is given, it is the final meeting of the ages, not some other time; also, look at the contrasting of the reward to those who remain (watching). Nothing about anyone flying away to save their souls here, nothing about some other hope and calling. only the plane statments that many will be deceived, the ones taken first are not the ones who continue to the end, to the telos.
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epouraniois
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BORN AGAIN
firstly, praise God that we may be of any use whatsoever, and to His praise for all as we search and see...in the great endeavor that we may know Him.
quote:
BORN AGAIN
Do you believe what happened to Old Nation Israel was a miniature or micro-scale of what will happen on a larger scale with the entire world?
I see a two foldedness in prophetic truth, and as this did not bring the kigndom realization to Israel during the Acts, this then must be a type and foreshadowing of that which shall be when God again takes up His work with Israel, wherein only 144,000 of them are sealed unto their acknowledging of the fulfillments by the signs set forth for them in Revelation, turning those overcomers to Christ amidst the time when that man of sin be defacto manifest as God in Jerusalem.
And all the world will be deceived as well, hence the wrath upon that dark day called the day of the Lord.
quote:
And, following that, began the time of the Gentiles until the time of the Gentiles be fulfilled. Presumably we are still in the time of the Gentiles?
The times of the...began with that head of gold, Daniel told us who he was, showing when it began.
Right now, we are equal in terms of God's continuing outworking. Both the gentiles, and Israel has now had two opportunities to come to the knowledge, better, the acknowledgment of The great God and our Savior Jesus Christ.
The next outworking will be in the milineal reign where both Jew and Gentile are worked with similtaneously, but not as equals.
At time present all are equal Eph 3:6, and in the liberty wherein we are called for the one hope of His calling.
During Acts they were not equal, they were one body, but in particular, not equals. During the rule with the rod of iron it will be unequal as well.
The only unity with men are 'in Christ' in the dispensation that now is, because this church is His body. Just another difference.
quote:
For me, this account in Luke 21:22-24 shows that it is spoken to the Jews who were sold as slaves into the nations after 70 A.D.
for me it shows Christ's ability to rightly divide, but also there is a difference in that found the meaning of the word age. There are many, called dispensations in the Bible, of which some co-exist briefly.
The age of the kingdom offer certainly was set into abayance, seemingly come to an end, but we know God will take up that same work again when the times of the gentiles be fulfilled.
What is the import of our times then?
Eph3. 10 gives the answer.
on Bondage:
Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Heb 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
we are all in bondage, bondage unto the day of redemption wherewith accualization of the redemption to His fulness.
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BORN AGAIN
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O brother timspong, do you see now how important our belief is in the millennium/tribulation/rapture/ and etcetera.
Hey, it is garnering lots of good talk...I think the HS knew what He was doing with you.
bless the LORD YHWH of Israel. BORN AGAIN ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif)
"sometimes my little heart can't understand what's in Your Heart"
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BORN AGAIN
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hi, epouraniois, you write: quote:
Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give **** , in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
Note that this completes the verse He began to speak in sermon at the first, which would fulfill the prophetic day of the Lord.{bold added by BORN AGAIN}
brother epouraniois, I want to thank God for your knowledge that we can try to tap into.
Do you believe what happened to Old Nation Israel was a miniature or micro-scale of what will happen on a larger scale with the entire world?
For instance, you quote:
Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give **** , in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
upon this people, meaning upon the people of Old National Israel to whom Jesus is talking.
Luke 21:24 is often somewhat conveniently left out in this discussion:
Luke 21
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Brother epouraniois, note that the result of v.24 is that "this people" (i.e., the Jews of Jesus's day until 70 A.D.), the remnant that survived were led sold as slaves into the Roman countries.
And, following that, began the time of the Gentiles until the time of the Gentiles be fulfilled. Presumably we are still in the time of the Gentiles?
Therefore, when Luke 21:22-23 just before 21:24 said:
Luke 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Luk 21:23 But woe to them who are with child, and to them who give **** in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath [b]upon this people.
When Jesus first came around 30 A.D. (for simplicity's sake), He said in the synagogue "today is the acceptable year of the LORD", quoting from Isaiah but not reading the second part of the verse "for these be the days of vengeance."
For me, this account in Luke 21:22-24 shows that it is spoken to the Jews who were sold as slaves into the nations after 70 A.D., and that also began the time of the Gentiles when Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled.
Is the time of the Gentiles still going on?
and if so, on what Biblical basis can you move Luke 21:22-24 to the end of the present age?
thank you.
bless the LORD YHWH of Israel, BORN AGAIN in the USA by the of God Yahshua-Jesus of Bethlehem-Judah, as Micah 5:2 said
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epouraniois
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Pauls said in 1 Corinthians 8:2 "If anyone thinks he has gained knowledge of something, he does not yet know it just as he ought to know it."
I want to show you all what can happen when we decide how and where verses should go. What can happen, what does happen, when man creates doctrine taken out of context from which it is given:
Mat 27:5
And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.
Luk 10:37
Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.
That is pretty bad I know, but the point is strong. Verses are not without a God given context, and it is when that context is overlooked, ignored, or by any other means forsaken for some other context that is not present that man begins to lean upon his own undersstanind rather than the Lord's:
A fool takes no pleasure in understanding, but only in expressing his opinion. Proverbs 18:2
As the great scholar, J. B. Lightfoot, declared: "The abnegation of reason is not the evidence of faith, but the confession of despair. "
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epouraniois
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Pauls said in 1 Corinthians 8:2 "If anyone thinks he has gained knowledge of something, he does not yet know it just as he ought to know it."
I want to show you all what can happen when we decide how and where verses should go. What can happen, what does happen, when man creates doctrine taken out of context from which it is given:
Mat 27:5
And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.
Luk 10:37
Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.
That is pretty bad I know, but the point is strong. Verses are not without a God given context, and it is when that context is overlooked, ignored, or by any other means forsaken for some other context that is not present that man begins to lean upon his own undersstanind rather than the Lord's:
A fool takes no pleasure in understanding, but only in expressing his opinion. Proverbs 18:2
As the great scholar, J. B. Lightfoot, declared: "The abnegation of reason is not the evidence of faith, but the confession of despair. "
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epouraniois
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someone said What is the tribulation other than wrath? The scriptures say we 'are not appointed to wrath' .
Itis the 'great tribulation' which Christ is speaking of when He speaks of to whom will come Mat24. 15, and the elect will still be on the earth when His wrath does come in the day of the Lord, not before:
Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give **** , in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
Note that this completes the verse He began to speak in sermon at the first, which would fulfill the prophetic day of the Lord.
and again it is the kingdom theme, not the church theme:
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed it unto them.
Do you yet see that these are people who were alive when Christ walked the earth and they that would not believe? He has already told them the dead shall rise first, there has been no resurrection yet. This responce is to fake letters claimiing to be Paul, Satan was at work hard against the kingdom. Even after this second Reoffering of the kingdom in the Lord's longsuffering with these people is in view these people are contrasted with believers.
1Thes5 has the same discussion going on, it isn't one single verse that doesn't fit, and because it doesn't fit it must be speaking of leaving the planet. Contrairwise, the verse only fits within it's God Breathed context:
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for a helmet, the hope of salvation.
1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
1Th 5:11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
And all of this is built up and founded upon that which is already stated in ch4, that the dead shall rise first.
The proselites and Jews had been following Paul around the whole time saying Paul is lying, the Jews cannot believe that gentiles can seek God without the full burden of the law, saying it to the gentiles as well.
This had gone on for years and years. Paul had already ministered at Thesselonica and was now writing a letter because they were being sent false letters claiming to be Paul, saying the resurrection had past.
Paul is straightening that all out in these letters. His last instructions in them is that he, Paul, writes like this, send the letter to all believers, make it a chain letter, don't let any man deceive you that time will not come until, &c &c.
and if you look in the above verses, they are connected with the word 'hope'. this is of the utmost of import because there hope was always known. It is there OT calling. Paul was able to say to them, 'brethren, ye see your calling'. They knew what there unchanging, unalterable OT hope and calling was, they had been trained for it for centuries, and these were believers who could acknowledge that the day of the Lord was indeed to be expected in their lifetimes, they were to remain alert and watch for all these signs leading them into the coming at hand kingdom when Christ would set His feet upon Mt Zion.
There is no evidence that they expected to fly away before the return of Christ.
Nevertheless, we must pray for our hope as Ephesians makes so clear. Why? Because a new calling and new hope was set forth by those two little words, 'but now'. We do not even have their calling, so why would we have their expectation in their calling? I will tell you, because the teachers are mixing it all together as if there is only one calling and one hope and so we take upon Israel's things long after the instruction is given to rightly divide the word of truth.
Israel and those gentiles who were made partakers of Israel's spiritual things expected His return. They did not expect His two returns. They expected to see the man of sin before the Christ, just as our Lord also said as recorded by Luke21, Mark13, and Mathew24.
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Adv.Christian
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Brother Timspong I pray you have not given up following this thread concerning your originating post quote:
Personally I feel that if biblical scholars can’t agree, then what hope have I to find an intellectual answer. I think that if it were important for me to know God will reveal it to me in His own good time.
It doesn’t really affect my walk apart from being able to understanding scripture when things of this nature are written about.
Personally I don’t think I will be around “physically” during the time of rapture or whatever is supposed to happen. So why dwell on it? Is it really that important to have an opinion one way or another?
All it seems to do is divide the Church
I whole heartedly agree with you in that this subject causes too much strife with in the body of Christ. That being said however it is a relevant doctrine and worth much consideration on the part of all believers for their growth in their understanding of God’s plan for His children.
The application of the belief or non-belief in the rapture, rather one believes in pre, mid or post tribulation rapture affect at least one extremely important aspect of a Christian’s faith. If you will, allow me to pose a question in order to answer your original question in your post; If a believer firmly believe all true Christians will be raptured prior to tribulation, and they also are firm in their faith that they are a Christian, then would you agree to the inference of the thought that they would not be looking to stand against the pit falls occurring during the rapture, an example of which is the mark of the beast? As Christians, we must be ever vigilant not to be misled by the cunning teachings of those whom would seek to destroy us by allowing the installation of beliefs in doctrines which would ultimately lead to our destruction.
I will admit, as most on this forum already are aware, I personally do not believe in the rapture as being a separate event from Christ’s return at the end times as we know it but that is not a subject I will get into in this particular posting. While I am more then willing to discuss this or any biblical subject with anyone I am not willing to argue over God’s Word. I ask only what I am certain you already do, that you continue to study God’s Word, ask the Lord to grant you the wisdom to understand what He would have you to understand and that He bring you ever closer to an understanding of what He needs and desires us to be for His glory.
As always my love to all and May God bless all and use all of us, His servants, to further the reach of His Word, Glory and Grace. ![[Prayer]](graemlins/prayer.gif)
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A person talking can not be listening; A person not listening can not be learning.
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oneyearandcounting
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Actually BA if you reread that section of Exedus that talks about the plagues the first two also effected the Hebrews. Lice and frogs I think. Then God sheltered them from the rest. Exod. 8:1-23
But I understand what you are saying.
God bless
greg
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Acts9:18 And straightway there fell from his eyes as it were scales, and he received his sight; and he arose and was baptized.
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Watcher
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posted
epouraniois
What are you saying?
![[Confused]](confused.gif) quote:
Once Israel took her place amidst the nations and the kingdom promise to her was set in abayance, a new hope was unveiled. It is called the church.
The church hope and calling is not the kingdom hope and calling. They are different. They are not the same.
The kingdom looks for His coming.
The church looks for His manifestation.
![[Bible]](graemlins/bible.gif)
Paul was the apostle to the gentiles.
Can you show me scriptures that back up what you say above?
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Watcher
Whoso rewardeth evil for good, evil shall not depart from his house. He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.
Proverbs 17:13,15
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HisGrace
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Just be ready guys -
You're in for the ride of your life.
![[rapture]](graemlins/rapture.gif)
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Bloodbought
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quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
quote:
Originally posted by Bloodbought:
HisGrace,
I totally believe the scripture you post that we are not appointed to wrath, but I don’t see in it where the church will be removed before the tribulation. You are writing your interpretation into it.
Another interpretation would be that we are preserved in tribulation and not removed out of it. God is able.
What is the tribulation other than wrath? The scriptures say we 'are not appointed to wrath' . It doesn't say 'we will be preserved.'
appoint - assign a duty, responsibility or obligation to
So if we are not appointed, we will not be assigned or obligated to go through the tribulation.
One thing for sure, we shall be saved from wrath through the blood of Christ.
Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him .
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BORN AGAIN
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HisGrace writes quote:
With this in mind, I hardly think he will expect us to suffer through the wrath of the tribulation.
Have faith in the power of God. If God can keep darkness and flies and frogs and lice and hailstones out of the land of Goshen in Egypt while the rest of Egypt experiences them all, God can do whatever it will take to keep us safe:
Psalm 91:7
A thousand shall fall at your side, and ten thousand at your right hand; but it shall not come near you.
Isaiah 43:2
And when you pass through the waters, I will be with you; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow you: when you walk through the fire, you shall not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon you.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by Bloodbought:
HisGrace,
I totally believe the scripture you post that we are not appointed to wrath, but I don’t see in it where the church will be removed before the tribulation. You are writing your interpretation into it.
Another interpretation would be that we are preserved in tribulation and not removed out of it. God is able.
What is the tribulation other than wrath? The scriptures say we 'are not appointed to wrath' . It doesn't say 'we will be preserved.'
appoint - assign a duty, responsibility or obligation to
So if we are not appointed, we will not be assigned or obligated to go through the tribulation.
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
HisGrace writes quote:
"For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ..."
~As a pre-tribber I interpret that scripture to mean that the church will be removed before the tribulation. Such as Noah and his family were removed before the flood, and Lot and his family were removed from the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, so we will be removed from the wrath of the tribulation.
~as a post-tribber, I interpret that scrip to mean that the church will be here on earth, but like Israel in Egypt, the church will be used by God to show the difference between forgiven Christians and those upon whom the wrath still must fall. Hence, "we are appointed unto salvation, and they are appointed unto wrath." Simple enough.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
During the tribulation, there is going to be suffering like this earth has never known - we can't even imagine. There apparently is technology available that can wipe out the power of a massive wide area from the sky - can you even imagine the chaos? The Bible says that people will be scorched to death, probably because of global warming. Increased global warming will cause hurricanes etc. that will make Katrina look like a spring rain. Some theologians believe that a large portion, if not all, of the sea-life will be obliterated.
How do you think that a Christian can stand up to the mark of the beast? They won't be able to survive.
Christians say that suffering and persecution is what it is all about, but the scriptures tell us that God, is his mighty grace, always knows our limits and wont allow us to suffer above that which we can endure. With this in mind, I hardly think he will expect us to suffer through the wrath of the tribulation.
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Bloodbought
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HisGrace,
I totally believe the scripture you post that we are not appointed to wrath, but I don’t see in it where the church will be removed before the tribulation. You are writing your interpretation into it.
Another interpretation would be that we are preserved in tribulation and not removed out of it. God is able.
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Miguel
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quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
The Biblical pattern is that destruction happens at the same time as salvation.
Noah was saved on the same day that the flood drowned the unbelievers.
Israel was saved in the land of Goshen on the same day that the firstborn of the Egyptians were destroyed.
Lot was saved on the same day that the Sodomites are burned. (The Lord said, "Remember Lot".)
Rahab was saved on the same day that the Jerichoites were killed.
The tares {the unbelievers} are gathered to be burned while they are still together in the field with the wheat {the believers}.
The bad fish and the good fish are still together in the net when the bad fish are thrown away, but the good fish are kept.
Two men are working in the field together, the bad man is taken, the good man remains.
Two women are grinding at the wheel, the bad woman is taken, and the good woman remains.
The Biblical pattern is always to keep the believers on earth among the wicked, that what the LORD does for the believers will be a testimony to the unbelievers.
Exodus 11
7 But against any of the children of Israel shall not a dog move his tongue, against man or beast: that you may know how that the LORD does put a difference between the Egyptians and Israel.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
We may also look at our Savior as the example of not been caught up in the time of His trial here on earth but said unto the Father.
Mat 26:38 Then said he unto them, My soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even unto death: tarry you here, and watch with me.
Mat 26:39 And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as you will.
Mat 26:42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, your will be done.
Mat 26:44 And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words.
3 times….
Mar 14:35 And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him.
Mar 14:36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto you; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what you will.
Mar 14:39 And again he went away, and prayed, and spoke the same words.
Mar 14:41 And he came the third time, and said unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: it is enough, the hour is come; behold, the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.
Luk 22:40 And when he was at the place, he said unto them, Pray that you enter not into temptation.
Luk 22:41 And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed,
Luk 22:42 Saying, Father, if you be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but yours, be done.
Luk 22:43 And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.
Luk 22:44 And being in agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.
Joh 18:11 Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up your sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father has given me, shall I not drink it?
Our dear Savior was not caught up but was in the time of trouble (tribulation)(distress)(difficulty)(hardship)(pain)(sorrow)(anguished) and then after that glorified at the right hand of the Father.
Joh 17:13 And now come I to you; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have My joy fulfilled in themselves.
Joh 17:14 I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Joh 17:15 I pray not that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil.
Joh 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through Your truth: Your word is truth.
Joh 17:18 As You have sent Me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
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Romans 9:11-24
Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!
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BORN AGAIN
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HisGrace writes quote:
"For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ..."
~As a pre-tribber I interpret that scripture to mean that the church will be removed before the tribulation. Such as Noah and his family were removed before the flood, and Lot and his family were removed from the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, so we will be removed from the wrath of the tribulation.
~as a post-tribber, I interpret that scrip to mean that the church will be here on earth, but like Israel in Egypt, the church will be used by God to show the difference between forgiven Christians and those upon whom the wrath still must fall. Hence, "we are appointed unto salvation, and they are appointed unto wrath." Simple enough.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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HisGrace
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Bloodbought, notice what 1 Thess 5:9-11 says "For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.
~As a pre-tribber I interpret that scripture to mean that the church will be removed before the tribulation. Such as Noah and his family were removed before the flood, and Lot and his family were removed from the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, so we will be removed from the wrath of the tribulation.
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Bloodbought
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quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
This was the initial post intoducing this topic.
quote:
Originally posted by timspong:
Personally I feel that if biblical scholors can’t agree, then what hope have I to find an intellectual answer. I think that if it were important for me to know God will reveal it to me in His own good time.
It doesn’t really effect my walk apart from being able to understanding scripture when things of this nature are written about.
Personally I don’t think I will be around “physically” during the time of rapture or whatever is supposed to happen. So why dwell on it? Is it really that important to have an opinion one way or another?
All it seems to do is divide the Church.
The most important thing is to be ready for whatever. However, looks like this whole matter is very important to Jesus. I think it is necessary to have answers so we can pray accordingly.
As I quoted before -
Matthew 24:42 Therefore keep watch because your Lord will come, you do not know what day he will come?
Yes HisGrace, and thank you for again bringing up the opening post introducing this topic.
I believe one of the reasons there is so much debate and division regarding the second coming of Christ, is that there is an attempt made to reason out something God may never have intended us to know. The Lord will come but we don’t know when.
For many, the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night.
1 Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
For those who are ready and expecting His coming, it will not overtake as a thief.
1 Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
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epouraniois
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Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Like Thess, I suppose the inferrence here is that God cannot keep one safe without removing them from the planet, but I am certain Daniel was kept from both temptation and God's wrath while still on earth, not to mention all of the other OT examples.
Likewise, both Rev and Thess is written to the tribes of Israel, as they so state.
Perhaps you folks are standing outside the synogagues awaiting for the crumbs to be revealed to you, but I highly doubt it. So why place yourselves there with them in these other things?
Furthermore, God is not angry with those that love Him, but is desireous that they not be deceived, and will give those over to the devil in his deception because they have not the love of the truth, as per 2 Thess.
But there is wrath that is coming, and why Christ called it the great tribulation:
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
It is my concerted opinion that Satan knows all about the 'common salvation', but will stop at nothing to prevent, if possible, as many as he can from realizing their true inheritance by way of reward as overcomers. This has always been done, Biblically, by infiltration of the highest levels of authority in those who are called and chosen.
2Co 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
1Co 7:20 Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.
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epouraniois
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I acknowledge the intent to get me to view what the traditions of men in the early church taught, but my only interest is what is written. forgive me for not trying to say that better, but I must remain true to what is actually written irregardless of what tradition holds as value.
To me, it is very simple. Christ is now hid in God. The members of the one body also have their lives hid with Christ in God. The church of the one body was chosen before the foundation of the world. They will manifest with Christ when He manifest. He will manifest in the heavenly places (en tois epouraniois).
God also has that people who was chosen since the foundation of the world, which are written to concerning His coming, His parousia from en tois epouraniois.
Christ manifests at the last trumpet, with a shout. Last means, in the Greek, the furthest one out from the first.
When Christ manifest, the church manifest with Him there where He manifest. It is specifically called the one hope of His calling.
In the twinkling of an eye, in a 'moment', giving us the word atomos, a slice of time so small there can be no further division, and in this atomos, He manifests, then comes to the earth from heaven to Mt Zion. Also in this atomos, the dead are raised into their bodies of glory before those who are alive and remain. Those who are alive and remain on the earth are specifically of the tribes of Israel who are called and numbered.
All of this could have happened, and each of the NT writers spoke of looking forward to this event happening in their lifetimes.
Once Israel took her place amidst the nations and the kingdom promise to her was set in abayance, a new hope was unveiled. It is called the church.
The church hope and calling is not the kingdom hope and calling. They are different. They are not the same.
The kingdom looks for His coming.
The church looks for His manifestation.
Confussion always insues when we fail to ask ourselves who is it written to, when, and why.
The hope of Israel is in view for the verses expecting the Lord's return, proven by finding this in the OT.
Proven it is not written to the church having the superheavenly calling is that this church cannot be found in the OT, nor during the Acts was it revealed.
Coming (parousia) is always and only associated with Israel's hope.
Manifesting (epiphinalia) is always and only associated with the church which is His body.
One is an earthly calling, one is a superheavenly calling. Each hope is different. The terms employeed are different.
The line of demaraction is Acts 28. 28.
The church of the one body has their affections not on this earth, but on Christ far above all. They reckon to see themselves as Christ sees them, dead, buried, risen, ascended, hid in God with Christ. For the wiles of the devil to overtake these members, Satan would have to overthrow that unity which exists only in God with Christ.
The members of other churches see themselves differently. The other churches have always been and are supseptable to being beguiled as Eve was, from the simplicity which is in Christ. They are supseptable because they endeavor to make this unity here on earth.
The church of the one body endeavors to guard that unity where it exists, en tois epouraniois en Christōi (in the heavenly places in Christ).
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becauseHElives
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epouraniois (here is a little of what the early Church Fathers taught)
In The First Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians, dated 68AD or 97AD, from
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-05.htm#P171_20841
Is the writer exhorting about and appealing to the truth of the pretribulation rapture in these examples? I have picked out a few important exerpts below:
Chapter IX
Let us stedfastly contemplate those who have perfectly ministered to His excellent glory. Let us take (for instance) Enoch, who, being found righteous in obedience, was translated, and death was never known to happen to him. Noah, being found faithful, preached regeneration to the world through his ministry; and the Lord saved by him the animals which, with one accord, entered into the ark.
[Enoch is an example of the rapture. Gen 5:24 "And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him." Hebrews 11:5 "By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God."]
[Noah, and Lot discussed below, are examples of deliverance from wrath, which are examples of the pretrib rapture. Compare with 2 Peter 2:5-9]
2Pe 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
2Pe 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
2Pe 2:7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
2Pe 2:8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)
2Pe 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:]
Chapter XI.
On account of his hospitality and godliness, Lot was saved out of Sodore when all the country round was punished by means of fire and brimstone, the Lord thus making it manifest that He does not forsake those that hope in Him, but gives up such as depart from Him to punishment and torture. For Lot's wife, who went forth with him, being of a different mind from himself and not continuing in agreement with him [as to the command which had been given them], was made an example of, so as to be a pillar of salt unto this day. This was done that all might know that those who are of a double mind, and who distrust the power of God, bring down judgment on themselves and become a sign to all succeeding generations.
While "those who are of a double mind, and who distrust the power of God" and "bring down judgment on themselves" are an example of those who will miss the rapture to enter the tribulation.
Chapter XIX
His mighty and surpassingly great gifts and benefactions, of peace. Let us contemplate Him with our understanding, and look with the eyes of our soul to His long-suffering will. Let us reflect how free from wrath He is towards all His creation.
[This wording, "free from wrath", is example of our pretrib promises as follows:]
1 Thess 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
1 Thess 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Chapter XXII
The face of the Lord is against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth. The righteous cried, and the Lord heard him, and delivered him out of all his troubles."95 "Many are the stripes [appointed for] the wicked; but mercy shall compass those about who hope in the Lord."
[This wording, "delivered him out of all his troubles" is like being delivered by the rapture from the time of trouble to come.]
Chapter XXIII
"Wretched are they who are of a double mind, and of a doubting heart; who say, These things we have heard even in the times of our fathers; but, behold, we have grown old, and none of them has happened unto us.
Of a truth, soon and suddenly shall His will be accomplished, as the Scripture also bears witness, saying, "Speedily will He come, and will not tarry; "99 and, "The Lord shall suddenly come to His temple, even the Holy One, for whom ye look."100
[The doctrine of the sedition, of the double minded, was the occasion for which Clement's letter was written. The sedition was the doubting of the resurrection and the coming of the Lord, becuase it still had not yet come, "none of [these things] has happened unto us". People in the Church had begun to doubt the coming of the Lord and the resurrection in the days when the New Testament was still being written, and Peter addressed it also:]
2Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
2Peter 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.:
[After speaking of the resurrection for two chapters, Clement continues with a statement that is clearly pretrib, "so that, through His mercy, we may be protected from the judgments to come", which is very much like Rev 3:10 "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.":]
XXVIII
Since then all things are seen and heard [by God], let us fear Him, and forsake those wicked works which proceed from evil desires; so that, through His mercy, we may be protected from the judgments to come. For whither can any of us flee from His mighty hand? Or what world will receive any of those who run away from Him? For the Scripture saith in a certain place, "Whither shall I go, and where shall I be hid from Thy presence? If I ascend into heaven, Thou art there; if I go away even to the uttermost parts of the earth, there is Thy right hand; if I make my bed in the abyss, there is Thy Spirit." Whither, then, shall any one go, or where shall he escape from Him who comprehends all things?
Chapter XXXIX
But call now, if any one will answer thee, or if thou wilt look to any of the holy angels; for wrath destroys the foolish man, and envy killeth him that is in error. I have seen the foolish taking root, but their habitation was presently consumed. Let their sons be far from safety; let them be despised172 before the gates of those less than themselves, and there shall be none to deliver. For what was prepared for them, the righteous shall eat; and they shall not be delivered from evil."173
Chapter L
All the generations from Adam even unto this day have passed away; but those who, through the grace of God, have been made perfect in love, now possess a place among the godly, and shall be made manifest at the revelation of the kingdom of Christ. For it is written, "Enter into thy secret chambers for a little time, until my wrath and fury pass away; and I will remember a propitious day, and will raise you up out of your graves."
[Clement's last line is a paraphrase of Isaiah 26:19-21, which teaches the resurrection will be before the indignation, or wrath, or tribulation.]
Isa 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
Isa 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide
thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
Isa 26:21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
Chapter LVI
He shall deliver thee in six troubles, yea, in the seventh no evil shall touch thee. In famine He shall rescue thee from death, and in war He shall free thee from the power of the sword. From the scourge of the tongue will He hide thee, and thou shalt not fear when evil cometh. Thou shalt laugh at the unrighteous and the wicked, and shalt not be afraid of the beasts of the field. For the wild beasts shall be at peace with thee: then shalt thou know that thy house shall be in peace, and the habitation of thy tabernacle shall not fail. Thou shall know also that thy seed shall be great, and thy children like the grass of the field. And thou shall come to the grave like ripened corn which is reaped in its season, or like a heap of the threshing-floor which is gathered together at the proper time." Ye see, beloved, that protection is afforded to those that are chastened of the Lord; for since God is good, He corrects us, that we may be admonished by His holy chastisement.
The repeated references to being "hid", and "delivered" and "gathered together" and "protected" all indicate a pretribulation rapture. Hiding is a theme of Isaiah 26:20, which he just paraphrased, and the rapture, being hid in heaven, hid in the bridal chamber at the wedding, compare these verses about the rapture:
Pss 27:4 One thing have I desired of the LORD, that will I seek after; that I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, to behold the beauty of the LORD, and to enquire in his temple.
Pss 27:5 For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock.
Pss 27:6 And now shall mine head be lifted up above mine enemies round about me: therefore will I offer in his tabernacle sacrifices of joy; I will sing, yea, I will sing praises unto the LORD.
Zeph 2:3 Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD's anger.
Chapter LVII
Ye therefore, who laid the foundation of this sedition...
[The sedition Clement mentions is the doubting of the resurrection, as mentioned earlier in Chapter XXIII. And he goes on to describe the fate of these of the sedition, that they will lose or miss the hope, and be cast into tribulation. The "blessed hope" is the rapture: Titus 2:13 "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;"]
Ye therefore, who laid the foundation of this sedition, submit yourselves to the presbyters, and receive correction so as to repent, bending the knees of your hearts. Learn to be subject, laying aside the proud and arrogant self-confidence of your tongue. For it is better for you that ye should occupy a humble but honourable place in the flock of Christ, than that, being highly exalted, ye should be cast out from the hope of His people. For thus speaketh all-virtuous Wisdom: " Behold, I will bring forth to you the words of My Spirit, and I will teach you My speech. Since I called, and ye did not hear; I held forth My words, and ye regarded not, but set at naught My counsels, and yielded not at My reproofs; therefore I too will laugh at your destruction; yea, I will rejoice when ruin cometh upon you, and when sudden confusion overtakes you, when overturning presents itself like a tempest, or when tribulation and oppression fall upon you. For it shall come to pass, that when ye call upon Me, I will not hear you; the wicked shall seek Me, and they shall not find Me. For they hated wisdom, and did not choose the fear of the Lord; nor would they listen to My counsels, but despised My reproofs. Wherefore they shall eat the fruits of their own way, and they shall be filled with their own ungodliness."
The reference to when "sudden confusion overtakes you", is as if a quote from 1 Thess 5:2-3, Paul's teaching about the rapture.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
And Clement's last line, "they shall eat the fruits of their own way" is such an appropriate rebuke to those who deny the pretribulation rapture. They, who teach we must endure the tribulation, will certainly have to endure it themselves.
Admitedly, the doctrine of the pretribulation rapture is never mentioned explicitly IN MODERN TERMS, but it is very strongly implied by the many examples provided of deliverance and salvation for Godly people, and the overwhelming evidence is that tribulation and wrath is stored up for those who have rejected God and scorned the doctrine of the resurrection and return of Jesus. In fact, it might be said that Clement's letter so strongly makes the point that tribulation comes to those who reject God, that he was being inconsistent with the examples of tribulation and martyrdom that came to the Apostles who died. But Clement did mention the Apostles, and martrydom, and he conclusively shows that such tribulations came from only an ungodly source, that of wicked men. This, therefore, seems to be Clement's proof that tribulation from ungodly men is different from the wrath of God that is stored up and is to come, and therefore, the experience of martyrdom for the Apostles is no proof that Christians are appointed to endure the great tribulation to come. Thanks Clement, I'll have to remember that great pretrib rapture argument the next time some post tribber starts telling me that the tribulations the Apostles faces means that I'll have to go through the tribulation to come!
________________________________________
In The Epistle of Polycarp to the Philippians, Polycarp, like Clement above, rebukes what appears to be the main heresy of his day, the denial of the resurrection.
From http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-11.htm#P770_145457
Chapter VII
"For whosoever does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh, is antichrist; " and whosoever does not confess the testimony of the cross, is of the devil; and whosoever perverts the oracles of the Lord to his own lusts, and says that there is neither a resurrection nor a judgment, he is the first-born of Satan. Wherefore, forsaking the vanity of many, and their false doctrines, let us return to the word which has been handed down to us from the beginning; "watching unto prayer," and persevering in fasting; beseeching in our supplications the all-seeing God "not to lead us into temptation," as the Lord has said: "The spirit truly is willing, but the flesh is weak.
It seems to me that Polycarp is refuting those who deny both the coming rapture and tribulation, calling these the resurrection (rapture) and judgment (tribulation). In response, Polycarp appeals to the word of God: the key phrase in the Lord's prayer, "not to lead us into temptation" that refutes these heresies, namely, by showing there is a judgment (temptation), and that there is deliverance from it (resurrection and rapture).
Matthew 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
Does the word "temptation" refer to the tribulation or time of trouble to come? Of course.
3986 peirasmos {pi-ras-mos'}
from 3985; TDNT - 6:23,822; n m
AV - temptation 19, temptations 1, try 1; 21
1) an experiment, attempt, trial, proving 1a) trial, proving: the trial made of you by my bodily condition, since condition served as to test the love of the Galatians toward Paul (Gal. 4:14) 1b) the trial of man's fidelity, integrity, virtue, constancy 1b1) an enticement to sin, temptation, whether arising from the desires or from the outward circumstances 1b2) an internal temptation to sin 1b2a) of the temptation by which the devil sought to divert Jesus the Messiah from his divine errand 1b3) of the condition of things, or a mental state, by which we are enticed to sin, or to a lapse from the faith and holiness 1b4) adversity, affliction, trouble: sent by God and serving to test or prove one's character, faith, holiness 1c) temptation (i.e. trial) of God by men 1c1) rebellion against God, by which his power and justice are, as it were, put to the proof and challenged to show themselves
A most commonly quoted verse used to support the pretribulation rapture today is Rev 3:10, which uses the same word, "temptation", the same word in the Greek, peirasmos.
Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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epouraniois
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quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
epouraniois, I was wondering, I hope you don't mind, but, when you had all your lobes, were you smarter or dumber? ![[happyhappy]](graemlins/happyhappy.gif) ![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif)
God bless, BORN AGAIN
Fair question, the intellect does not reside in the frontal portion of the tissue, but what does is the motivation, organization, short term memory, taste, smell, anger managment/courtesty, concepts of time, love, and things of that nature.
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epouraniois
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quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
brother epouraniois writes quote:
That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ
The Father of Glory
May give unto You the spirit of wisdom and revelation in
THE KNOWLEDGE OF HIM
actually, just some extra time will do. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
with Christian love, I am BORN AGAIN by the of God Yahshua-Jesus
Ahhhh, yes, but I am quoting a prayer as set forth by the Holy Spirit!!!
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This was the initial post intoducing this topic.
quote:
Originally posted by timspong:
Personally I feel that if biblical scholors can’t agree, then what hope have I to find an intellectual answer. I think that if it were important for me to know God will reveal it to me in His own good time.
It doesn’t really effect my walk apart from being able to understanding scripture when things of this nature are written about.
Personally I don’t think I will be around “physically” during the time of rapture or whatever is supposed to happen. So why dwell on it? Is it really that important to have an opinion one way or another?
All it seems to do is divide the Church.
The most important thing is to be ready for whatever. However, looks like this whole matter is very important to Jesus. I think it is necessary to have answers so we can pray accordingly.
As I quoted before -
Matthew 24:42 Therefore keep watch because your Lord will come, you do not know what day he will come?
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Bloodbought
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quote:
Originally posted by Watcher:
You can believe whatever you want, this is what I belive: Jesus is coming to take the kids home!
Jhn 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
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Jhn 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.
Jesus is telling you right there is He not?
Jesus is coming and I don’t care whither He comes before, after, or during the tribulation. To me this is the important part, that Jesus, the one whose berth we are about to celebrate, is coming to take, and with all due respect Watcher, I would rather not call them His “kids” because that sounds too much like “goats” and He is not coming for goats, He is coming for those of us He calls “sheep”, sheep and lambs and when He calls us up we will be with Him no matter where He is. This is what I am delighted to hear. He is already preparing mansions for His people in heaven, presumably in the Holy city. Then at the appointed time the city will come down presumably to stay.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
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BORN AGAIN
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I'm sorry, brother timspong in Nigeria, that the words "How important is your belief" in the title of your Topic has kind of fallen by the wayside; but it was to be expected with such a Topic as yours that it would deteriorate/expand into end-time topic discussions instead.
It was a valiant attempt on your part and much to be appreciated; your Topic is now serving as a vehicle for many more answers and questions on the end-times which has apparently been yearning for Topic of its own.
brother timspong, I like your spirit and I hope that you will stay with us for a long while.
please, God of Israel, bless brother timspong in Nigeria, I am BORN AGAIN in the USA by the of Yahshua-Jesus, born in Bethlehem-Judah, as Micah 5:2 said would happen
"I am a cross-lover", Zarqawi and Osama bin Laden
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BORN AGAIN
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epouraniois, I was wondering, I hope you don't mind, but, when you had all your lobes, were you smarter or dumber?
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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BORN AGAIN
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brother epouraniois writes quote:
That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ
The Father of Glory
May give unto You the spirit of wisdom and revelation in
THE KNOWLEDGE OF HIM
actually, just some extra time will do.
with Christian love, I am BORN AGAIN by the of God Yahshua-Jesus
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MARGARET'S REVELATION
"It was first the awful state of the land that was pressed upon me. I saw the blindness and infatuation of the people to be very great. I felt the cry of Liberty just to be the hiss of the serpent, to drown them in perdition. It was just 'no God.'
I repeated the words, Now there is distress of nations, with perplexity, the seas and the waves roaring, men's hearts failing them for fear. Now look out for the sign of the Son of Man. Here I was made to stop and cry out, O it is not known what the sign of the Son of Man is; the people of God think they are waiting, but they know not what it is.
I felt this needed to be revealed, and that there was great darkness and error about it; but suddenly what it was burst upon me with a glorious light. I saw it was just the Lord himself descending from Heaven with a shout, just the glorified man, even Jesus; but that all must, as Stephen was, be filled with the Holy Ghost, that they might look up, and see the brightness of the Father's glory.
I saw the error to be, that men think that it will be something seen by the natural eye; but 'tis spiritual discernment that is needed, the eye of God in his people.
Many passages were revealed, in a light in which I had not before seen them. I repeated, 'Now is the kingdom of Heaven like unto ten virgins, who went forth to meet the Bridegroom, five wise and five foolish; they that were foolish took their lamps, but took no oil with them; but they that were wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.'
'But be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is; and be not drunk with wine wherein is excess, but be filled with the Spirit.' This was the oil the wise virgins took in their vessels - this is the light to be kept burning - the light of God - that we may discern that which cometh not with observation to the natural eye.
Only those who have the light of God within them will see the sign of his appearance. No need to follow them who say, see here, or see there, for his day shall be as the lightning to those in whom the living Christ is. 'Tis Christ in us that will lift us up - he is the light - 'tis only those that are alive in him that will be caught up to meet him in the air.
I saw that we must be in the Spirit, that we might see spiritual things. John was in the Spirit, when he saw a throne set in Heaven. But I saw that the glory of the ministration of the Spirit had not been known. I repeated frequently, but the spiritual temple must and shall be reared, and the fullness of Christ be poured into his body, and then [note: no imminency teaching here!] shall we be caught up to meet him. Oh none will be counted worthy of this calling but his body, which is the church, and which must be a candlestick all of gold.
I often said, Oh the glorious inbreaking of God which is now about to burst on this earth; Oh the glorious temple which is now about to be reared, the bride adorned for her husband; and Oh what a holy, holy bride she must he, to be prepared for such a glorious bridegroom.
I said, Now shall the people of God have to do with realities - now shall the glorious mystery of God in our nature be known - now shall it be known what it is for man to be glorified. I felt that the revelation of Jesus Christ had yet to be opened up - it is not knowledge about God that it contains, but it is an entering into God - I saw that there was a glorious breaking in of God to be.
I felt as Elijah, surrounded with chariots of fire. I saw as it were, the spiritual temple reared, and the Head Stone brought forth with shoutings of grace, grace, unto it. It was a glorious light above the brightness of the sun that shone round about me. I felt that those who were filled with the Spirit could see spiritual things, and feel walking in the midst of them, while those who had not the Spirit could see nothing - so that two shall be in one bed, the one taken and the other left, because the one has the light of God within while the other cannot see the Kingdom of Heaven.
I saw the people of God in an awfully dangerous situation, surrounded by nets and entanglements, about to be tried, and many about to be deceived and fall. Now will THE WICKED be revealed, with all power and signs and lying wonders, so that it it were possible the very elect will be deceived. - [This is the fiery trial which is to try us. - It will be for the purging and purifying of the real members of the body of Jesus]; but Oh it will be a fiery trial. Every soul will he shaken to the very centre. The enemy will try to shake in every thing we have believed - but the trial of real faith will be found to honour and praise and glory. Nothing but what is of God will stand. The stony-ground hearers will be made manifest - the love of many will wax cold.
I frequently said that night, and often since, now shall the awful sight of a false Christ be seen on this earth, and nothing but the living Christ in us can detect this awful attempt of the enemy to deceive - for it is with all deceivableness of unrighteousness he will work - he will have a counterpart for every part of God's truth, and an imitation for every work of the Spirit.
The Spirit must and will be poured out on the church, that she may be purified and filled with God - and just in proportion as the Spirit of God works, so will he - when our Lord anoints men with power, so will he. This is particularly the nature of the trial, through which those are to pass who will be counted worthy to stand before the Son of man. There will he outward trial too, but 'tis principally temptation. It is brought on by the outpouring of the Spirit, and will just increase in proportion as the Spirit is poured out.
[The trial of the Church is from Antichrist. It is by being filled with the Spirit that we shall be kept].
I frequently said, Oh be filled with the Spirit - have the light of God in you, that you may detect Satan - be full of eyes within -be clay in the hands of the potter -submit to be filled, filled with God. This will build the temple. It is not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit, saith the Lord. This will fit us to enter into the marriage supper of the Lamb.
I saw it to be the will of God that all should be filled. But what hindered the real life of God from being received by his people, was their turning from Jesus, who is the way to the Father. They were not entering in by the door. For he is faithful who hath said, by me if any man enters in he shall find pasture. They were bypassing the cross, through which every drop of the Spirit of God flows to us. All power that comes not through the blood of Christ is not of God.
When I say, they are looking from the cross, I feel that there is much in it - they turn from the blood of the Lamb, by which we overcome, and in which our robes are washed and made white. There are low views of God's holiness, and a ceasing to condemn sin in the flesh, and a looking from him who humbled himself, and made himself of no reputation. Oh! it is needed, much needed at present, a leading back to the cross.
I saw that night, and often since, that there will be an outpouring of the Spirit on the body, such as has not been, a baptism of fire, that all the dross may be put away. Oh there must and will be such an indwelling of the living God as has not been - the servants of God sealed in their foreheads - great conformity to Jesus - his holy holy image seen in his people - just the bride made comely by his comeliness put upon her.
This is what we are at present made to pray much for, that speedily we may all be made ready to meet our Lord in the air - and it will be. Jesus wants his bride. His desire is toward us. He that shall come, will come, and will not tarry.
Amen and Amen Even so come Lord Jesus.''
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epouraniois
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Edward Irving was a mason, was a Jesuit, and founder of the rapture. look it up. one of their stated purposes was to destroy Chirstianity, lsater deciding to infiltrate it instead. they call themselves sons of light, light bearers, the illuminated ones. Are we not warned? is there any other fly away doctrine where people are taught to fly to save their souls? God says He is against it.
Your church leaders cannot save you. They are not the door, not the light, not the way.
Man cannot come to God by the church. Christ said so.
Whose words do you want to stand upon?
Margaret Macdonald, born ca. 1815, was a Scottish-Irish woman. She is frequently credited as the originator of the Pre-Trib view although in fact her vision was Post-Trib.
In 1830 at the age of 15, while living in Port Glasgow, Scotland, Margaret Macdonald reportedly had a vision about the End Times.
Not long after her revelation, she wrote down her account of everything and sent hand-written copies of it to a number of Christian leaders. The Morning Watch, a leading British publication, quickly copied some of her distinctive notions. Her revelation was eventually published in Robert Norton's Memoirs of James & George Macdonald, of Port Glasgow (1840), pp. 171-176. Norton published it again in The Restoration of Apostles and Prophets; In the Catholic Apostolic Church (1861), pp. 15-18.
Others levelled the charge that she was amongst the company of false prophets who were causing "disturbances" in Edward Irving's church at the time (hinting at a demonic source for the pre-trib rapture). Robert Baxter who had himself been part of that company later wrote that these prophets and visionaries spoke under the direction of demonic power.
For years the subject of prophecy had occupied much of Edward Irving's thoughts, and his belief in the near approach of the second advent had received such wonderful corroboration by the perusal of the work of a Jesuit priest, writing under the assumed Jewish name of Juan Josafat Ben-Ezra, that in 1827 he published a translation of it, accompanied with an eloquent preface.
His apocalyptic lectures in 1828 more than crowding the largest churches of Edinburgh in the early summer mornings. in 1830, however, there was opened up to his ardent imagination a new vista into spiritual things, a new hope for the age in which he lived, by the seeming actual revival in a remote corner of Scotland of those apostolic gifts of prophecy and healing which he had already in 1828 persuaded himself had only been kept in abeyance by the absence of faith.
At once he welcomed the new powers with an unquestioning evidence which could be shaken by neither the remonstrances or desertion of his dearest friends, the recantation of some of the principal agents of the gifts, his own declension into a comparatively subordinate position, the meagre and barren results of the manifestations, nor their general rejection both by the church and the world. His excommunication by the presbytery of London, in 1830, for publishing his doctrines regarding the humanity of Jesus Christ, and the condemnation of these opinions by the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland in the following year, were secondary episodes which only affected the main issue of his career in so far as they tended still further to isolate him from the sympathy of the church; but the irregularities connected with the manifestation of the gifts gradually estranged the majority of his own congregation, and on the complaint of the trustees -to the presbytery of London, whose authority they had formerly rejected, he was declared unfit to remain the minister of the National Scotch Church of Regent Square.
After he and those who adhered to him (describing themselves as of the Holy Catholic Apostolic Church) had in 1832 removed to a new building in Newman Street, he was in March 1833 deposed from the ministry of the Church of Scotland by the presbytery of Annan on the original charge of heresy. With the sanction of the power he was now after some delay reordained chief pastor of the church assembled in Newman Street, but unremitting labours and ceaseless spiritual excitement soon completely exhausted the springs of his vital energy. He died, worn out and wasted with labour and absorbing care, while still in the prime of life, on the 7th of December 1834.
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BORN AGAIN
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The Biblical pattern is that destruction happens at the same time as salvation.
Noah was saved on the same day that the flood drowned the unbelievers.
Israel was saved in the land of Goshen on the same day that the firstborn of the Egyptians were destroyed.
Lot was saved on the same day that the Sodomites are burned. (The Lord said, "Remember Lot".)
Rahab was saved on the same day that the Jerichoites were killed.
The tares {the unbelievers} are gathered to be burned while they are still together in the field with the wheat {the believers}.
The bad fish and the good fish are still together in the net when the bad fish are thrown away, but the good fish are kept.
Two men are working in the field together, the bad man is taken, the good man remains.
Two women are grinding at the wheel, the bad woman is taken, and the good woman remains.
The Biblical pattern is always to keep the believers on earth among the wicked, that what the LORD does for the believers will be a testimony to the unbelievers.
Exodus 11
7 But against any of the children of Israel shall not a dog move his tongue, against man or beast: that you may know how that the LORD does put a difference between the Egyptians and Israel.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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epouraniois
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Being that my questions must be too hard, seeing as how no one is addressing any of them, let me try easier ones then:
One of you please explain to me how Jesus has the tares being harvested first and
the 'rapture' believers has the saints being harvested first.
also please explain to me this verse in Proverbs.
The righteous shall 'NEVER' be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth.
Proverbs 10:30
Also, while we're talking about this. Matthew 24:29-31 Jesus says,
Immediately 'after' the tribulation..Verse 29
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds... Verse 31
Now the trumpet that sounds after the tribulation in the above verses..Is that one
different than the trump of IThes.4:16 and ICor.15:52 ???
How many final trumps
are there?
How do you reconcile the words of the Lord which state flatly that even His very elect will be here, and that if it were possible to deceive them, the lies will be so great that they should also be deceived:
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judea flee
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
but for the elects sake God will fly them away? Nope, He will shorten the time of Satan's arrival defacto, but nothing about flying them away to save their souls. Oh yeah, God is against that anyway, according to Jehovah God, as it is written.
Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say...believe it not.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Why will they mourn when they see Him coming?
Rape is a crime where the victim is forced into sexual activity, in particular sexual penetration, against his or her will. The word originates from the Latin rapere: to seize or take by force. The Latin term for the act of rape itself is raptus.
Originally, the word rape was akin to rapine, rapture, raptor, and rapacious, and referred to the more general violations, such as looting, destruction, and capture of citizens that are inflicted upon a town or country during war.
harpazō is a Greek word, rapture is not.
cross is a Latin word, but the Greek used never implies two sticks placed together at any angle, so it is written He hanged on a tree.
G726
ἁρπάζω
harpazō
har-pad'-zo
From a derivative of G138; to seize (in various applications): - catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).
When we rationalize (make excuses) away God's pure words and replace them with our own, or allow the teachers to replace them, what are we doing it for? Are we doing it because the Lord has instructed us to do so?
As we can see, they change God's Holy and Pure words to mans words, Christ called them Scripture doctors.
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
excuse me...ghostly form? Did Jesus have a "ghostly form"? For we shall be like Him.
BORN AGAIN
Ok ok - for want of a better word - I had a feeling I would get a reaction out of that one.
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BORN AGAIN
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HisGrace writes quote:
I am having a hard time picturing that many of us are going around in a ghostly form and many are going around in earthly bodies.
We are still going to be on this old earth - won't be heaven until after the thousand years.
excuse me...ghostly form? Did Jesus have a "ghostly form"? For we shall be like Him.
Mark 6
49 But when they saw him walking upon the sea, they supposed it had been a spirit, and cried out:
50 For they all saw him, and were troubled. And immediately he talked with them, saying, It is I; do not be afraid.
2 Peter 1:16
For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty.
Lastly, it may never be heaven since heaven is coming down to earth at the end of the thousand years.
Revelation 21:2
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
BORN AGAIN
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I am having a hard time picturing that many of us are going around in a ghostly form and many are going around in earthly bodies.
We are still going to be on this old earth - won't be heaven until after the thousand years.
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BORN AGAIN
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HisGrace writes quote:
~Looks like they are going to come back as 'people'.
Rev. 20:7-And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
the nations are the people on earth who are ruled over by the Prince and by the glorified church in the holy portion.
the nations are not glorified and stay as "normal" people during the thousand years.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
we will walk as glorified, pass-through-the-door humans on earth in the holy portion with the Prince.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
You mean like this?
Rev. 20:4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
~Looks like they are going to come back as 'people'.
Rev. 20:7-And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
~(More people)
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BORN AGAIN
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HisGrace writes quote:
If we are reigning with Jesus for a thousand years, won't we walk on this earth as humans?
we will walk as glorified, pass-through-the-door humans on earth in the holy portion with the Prince.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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If we are living with Jesus for a thousand years, won't we walk on this earth as humans?
The new heaven and new earth are formed after the thousand years and judgment.
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BORN AGAIN
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HisGrace writes quote:
I just hope y'all don't get too many bumps and bruises as you crash into each other trying to pull that u-eey up in the middle of the sky.
glorified bodies do not bump and bruise, they pass through each other.
that's also why glorified humans have no sex with each other, but are like the angels
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
HisGrace writes quote:
I don't think becauseHL gave these two scriptures which show we are going to be caught up into heaven. Can't be referring to Jesus Second Coming when he lands on earth. {bold by BA}
there is nothing to prevent the Lord catching us up to meet Him in the air when He is coming down at the Second Coming and then proceed with Him and the other saints to mount Olives on the earth.
As far as the importance, since it is part of the Word of God it is ultimately all important.
BORN AGAIN
I just hope y'all don't get too many bumps and bruises as you crash into each other trying to pull that u-eey up in the middle of the sky.
As for me, I am going to be up in heaven preparing to be one of Brides of the Bridegroom, to be readied for the pomp and glory of Jesus grand entrance back to earth in the Second Coming.
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BORN AGAIN
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HisGrace writes quote:
I don't think becauseHL gave these two scriptures which show we are going to be caught up into heaven. Can't be referring to Jesus Second Coming when he lands on earth. {bold by BA}
there is nothing to prevent the Lord catching us up to meet Him in the air when He is coming down at the Second Coming and then proceed with Him and the other saints to the mount Olives on the earth.
As far as the importance, since it is part of the Word of God it is ultimately all important, but never to the point of getting angry about it with fellow believers.
BORN AGAIN
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I think 1 Thess. 4:17 is still the most clear example of meeting Christ in the skies.
"Then together with them we who are still alive and remain on the eath will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and remain with him forever.
I don't think becauseHL gave these two scriptures which show we are going to be caught up into heaven. Can't be referring to Jesus Second Coming when he lands on earth.
Rev. 4:1-2 After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this." At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it
John 14:1-4 "Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going."
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