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Topic: vessels of mercy
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epouraniois
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What I referred to as madness is when the subject becomes us rather than uplifting God who has given us His understanding, when we try to prove our understanding to be correct then we are surely not, for myself I can say that I have no understanding of my own, and do so seek the knowledge of Him in whose plan of redemption cannot fail, so if some go down into the pit, losing their reward because they had not the love for the truth they still have the salvation wherein it is written, none has He lost but the son of perdition who is spoken of in 2 Thess as well.
At the very least that rich man will find instruction in by that time of teaching with a rod of iron as Israel becomes a channel of blessing to the nations, fulfilling her portion of kingdom inheritance, but I would suspect, given the nature and depth of his desire for that living water of truth, that when Christ went and preached to the spirits, not the souls, in prison, he probably was taken over to Abraham's Bossom side of that great gulf.
As regards to us all being on different levels, it is true, and we are all eqaul in that we are all fulled to our fill at any given moment and God sees us all as He sees His Son, blameless, however I point out that to compare us with Israel's blindness and the few that made it to the promised land fails to bring into this present dispensation the very words of God bring us surety in Acts 28, that The Salvation of God is then sent unto the nations and we will hear it.
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epouraniois
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BB, please provide some verses stating the soul leaves the body.
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Bloodbought
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quote:
Originally posted by epouraniois:
quote:
BB
You did not give any supporting scripture in answer to my question. The verse in question does not suggest that it isn't water we swim in, but that living water of truth that is desired. You made the verse to say something it does not say. How did you do this? I suggest you needed to look elsewhere in the scripture to find another meaning for the word water to support your interpretation.
You have already agreed with me, so why all this madness? But yes, we do go to other portions of Scripture, but never to build our own understanding, if that is our goal we can prove anything, but if we want God's understanding then we goto other Scriptures in the way that we are instructed to be so doing, namenly
Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
Isa 28:12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
Here is one of them showing the word of God is that good water:
Joh 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
Amo 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD
What madness?
It’s important for people to know the truth. It’s important for people to know they have a soul that needs to be saved before their soul leaves the body, because if their soul leaves their body without being saved, then they will be like the rich man in hell who in your own words desired just one drop of truth. It will be forever too late. But first of all we need to establish in their minds that they have an immortal soul that can be saved, otherwise they will say oh the grave is the end. Do you want them to believe the grave is the end? I don’t think you do, you know as well as I do the truth is important, because how we handle it has eternal consequences.
We are in the school of God learning on different levels. Moses spent his whole life of 120 years learning in the school of God. His life is divided into three forties, the first forty years he spent learning to be something, the second forty he spent in the back side of the desert learning to be nothing, and the third forty he spent learning that God is everything.
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epouraniois
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quote:
BB
You did not give any supporting scripture in answer to my question. The verse in question does not suggest that it isn't water we swim in, but that living water of truth that is desired. You made the verse to say something it does not say. How did you do this? I suggest you needed to look elsewhere in the scripture to find another meaning for the word water to support your interpretation.
You have already agreed with me, so why all this madness? But yes, we do go to other portions of Scripture, but never to build our own understanding, if that is our goal we can prove anything, but if we want God's understanding then we goto other Scriptures in the way that we are instructed to be so doing, namenly
Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
Isa 28:12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
Here is one of them showing the word of God is that good water:
Joh 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
Amo 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD
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epouraniois
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Jos 10:39 And he took it, and the king thereof, and all the cities thereof; and they smote them with the edge of the sword, and utterly destroyed all the souls that were therein; he left none remaining: as he had done to Hebron, so he did to Debir, and to the king thereof; as he had done also to Libnah, and to her king.
so yes, one of many many many examples of man being able to destroy the soul of man. I have listed many, why the verses are not sought after and acknowledged I do not understand, the Lord does.
Jos 11:11 And they smote all the souls that were therein with the edge of the sword, utterly destroying them: there was not any left to breathe: and he burnt Hazor with fire.
Ok, I looked up the neshâmâh as it pertains to animals other than man and have found that it does not. Below is a wonderful example of what the neshâmâh actually is:
Job 32:8 But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration (neshâmâh)of the Almighty giveth them understanding.
Below is why I stand upon my original statement that the neshâmâh is peculiar to man and man alone, and it has to do with following the grammar. I will seperate this out for clearer viewing:
Gen 7:21-22
And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth,
and every man:
All (man) in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all (men) that was in the dry land, died.
Remember three things here, one is the reason for this destruction, Noah alone was pure, or perfect, in his pedigree, that is to say his seed line, and there we have an issue, see Ham for the discrepancy.
Secondly, the subject above dictates that although the other creatures on dry land died, the subject and the object of the grammar is that man was to be destroyed, the animals were subsequential as in the domino effect.
Thirdly, even if this did say the animals had the breath of neshâmâh breathed into them, giving inspiration (neshâmâh)of the Almighty giveth them understanding, it is only out of the mouth of two or three witnesses which we discern truth, and never are we to build doctrine on one verse alone. And this we do not have.
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epouraniois
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neshâmâh and the animals, I will look into that, thank you for the direction.
as far as Col3. 3, 4, and being able to insert words that are not there, I am in complete disagreement.
For one reason, we shouldn't do it. In Lazurus, we have the subject and object given, it is truth and it is water.
In Col it is not he spirit nor the soul, but it is life. Our life is, if we have His understanding and place ourselves within that frameword, then we are risen with Him in resurrection power, quickened now, and our life, zoe, is hid with Christ in God, and when Christ, who is our life appears, or manifests, we shall manifest with Him in Glory.
This has to do with being the saints in light. Without understanding what the saints in the light means can be problimatic, but even so, gives us no cause to alter His words.
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Bloodbought
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quote:
Originally posted by epouraniois:
quote:
BB
Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
Here you have both the body and the soul. The body is dead, well, not physically, but it is dead spiritually. The body is actually useless spiritually. It is the life or soul that counts. The soul is what is born-again and changed into a new creature in Christ.
no no, no, here you are adding your words and pretending God has written them, for the word soul nor spirit is present in the verse, nor is it the subject or grammatical objective point of that which is written. the same with adam in Gen2. 7, adam wasn't given a soul, he didn't receive a soul, he became a soul, that is to say, living flesh breathing man.
Let us give honor to that which IS written, being workmen not ashamed.
Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Why, if my soul is not my body, do I read that the soul can be killed by men, and that the soul is buried in the ground?
THE BODY IS USELESS SPIRITUALLY?
WHAT? MAYBE YOUR'S IS, not mine!
WHERE ARE THE VERSES FOR THAT?
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ
SPIRIT IN THE NT:
MAN (psychologically), pneuma being imparted to man, making him "a living psuche" ( = "a living soul", or being, as in Gen. 2:7. Ps. 104:29, 30. Ecc. 12:7). When taken back to and by God, man, without pneuma, becomes and is called "a dead soul" in each of the thirteen occurrences rendered in A.V. "dead body", &c.
From Bloodbought
quote:
I must confess I can’t find a word in the verses that have the word for soul, sorry.
Like you regarding the rich man requesting a drop of water, I got my interpretation from elsewhere in scripture by allowing scripture to interpret scripture.
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
That is, he became alive.
The soul can’t be killed, so why say the whole person is the soul when a person can be killed? The soul and the body are clearly two separate parts.
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
I agree with Born Again that both humans and animals have both a soul and a spirit, but they also have a body.
My understanding is that body soul and spirit are distinct; they are a trinity like Father Son and Holy Spirit. When all three are united they make up a complete living person.
When separated the soul and spirit return to God and the body returns to dust.
Paul said.
2 Cor 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
I find it difficult to explain what I am trying to get across because of the nature of this topic, but let us see what it looks like when we reverse Gen 2:7.
Gen 2:7 reversed.
Man a living soul, breathed out of his nostrils the breath of life back to God, man formed of the dust of the ground.
This reversal takes place at death and when it does the man is no longer a living soul, there is nothing left on earth but dust, because the breath of life has left the body and returned to God.
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Bloodbought
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quote:
Originally posted by epouraniois:
quote:
Originally posted by Bloodbought:
epouraniois,
I must confess I can’t find a word in the verses that have the word for soul, sorry.
You said in an earlier post.
quote:
Regarding Luke and the great gulf, on one side there is want of water, just one drop. Why? Because it isn't the water we swim in, but that living water of truth that is desired. Remember the rich man wanted his relatives to be made aware of that which he did not believe. It is the living water of the word which he so sought to have even just one drop:
You seem to have done the same as me, put your own words to it.
How did you conclude this was the living water of the word which he so sought to have even just one drop?
Please do go back and read the supporting verses, but always ask me in case I have failed to do so, and this too, is based upon some rather deep studies into ch16. I do endeavor to provide the verses along with the object and subject, although I only provided two witness verses, there are many many more, such as:
1Pe 1:22-23
Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto...by the word of God, which liveth and abideth forever.
But the Lazurus epic has to do with a carnal man with the riches and cares of this life meeting across taht great gulf. On one side is Abraham's bossom, Abraham, the friend of God. On the other side, the judgment side of the great gulf afixed, the rich man is desirous if by any means someone can go back and warn those who he cares about in the flesh. It is uponn this that the man is thirsty for even one drop. And one thing we know about parables, is that they speak of more and never less, as with most every Figure of Speech. You see, it is even probable that there is conversation between these, as we have read, the spirit returns to God who gave it, but the soul goes into the pit and remembers not any thing, that is to say, the body.
You did not give any supporting scripture in answer to my question. The verse in question does not suggest that it isn't water we swim in, but that living water of truth that is desired. You made the verse to say something it does not say. How did you do this? I suggest you needed to look elsewhere in the scripture to find another meaning for the word water to support your interpretation.
I’m not saying there is anything wrong with allowing scripture to interpret scripture even though what you said can not be found in the original Greek in Luke 16:24.
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timspong
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quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
[QB] Bloodbought writes quote:
in other words the soul will return to God for judgment.
and the spirit returns to God too?
Ecclesiastes 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return to God who gave it.
the dust and the spirit, but where is the soul?[/b]
We have our own souls; the spirit would be the Spirit of God, which belongs to God. A believer's soul will go to heaven.
I agree with this. The body returns as dust, the Holy Spirit (that dwelt within us) returns to God and our soul is all that is left of us as individuals, to spend eternity with God.
I think Jesus during the 40 days after his resurection show us the best example of the spiritual form that we will become on earth. A spiritual body containing our eternal soul that has now been purified. It no longer has to obey the laws of the physical world, it now has the purity to be able to obey the perfect will of God.
--------------------
Yours in Christ
Timothy Michael Spong
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BORN AGAIN
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Bloodbought, I confess that I'm not entirely sure what you were referring to, but you write quote:
epouraniois,
I must confess I can’t find a word in the verses that have the word for soul, sorry.
if you are referring to this, the translators of the KJV after a while realized that the word "nephesh" in Hebrew often simply meant "he" or "she" or "his nephesh" as the Hebrew calls it, and the KJV translators stopped overusing the word "soul" and simply wrote "he ate" when in fact the Hebrew says, "my nephesh ate".
so if you could not find the world "soul" in those verses, that's why; the underlying Hebrew is still "my nephesh".
bless the LORD YHWY of Israel, I am BORN AGAIN in the USA by the ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif) of Yahshua-Jesus
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BORN AGAIN
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Bloodbought writes to epouraniois: quote:
No, It has already been shown from scripture on this thread that the body is not the soul.
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
The natural body is “aphar:H6083 = dust”.
Watchman Nee sort of puts it this way, "when the spirit and body {aphar} united, the result was that man became a living soul or living creature.
what does it mean when Jesus said that He could destroy both soul and body in gehenna?
hypothetically, if "soul" means the "whole person" or "living creature", how is it that when the "body is killed", the "living creature" is not also immediately killed but Jesus clearly seems to treat the body and soul as two separate things, does He not?
Mat 10:28 And fear not them who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
If "soul" is only "the living creature" or "that which is produced from a union of spirit and body", how is it that "killing the body" still apparently "leaves the soul unkilled":"
Mat 10:28 And fear not them who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul...
Bless the LORD YHWH of Israel, I am BORN AGAIN by the of Yahshua-Jesus
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BORN AGAIN
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dear brother epouraniois, you write quote:
Yet the breath that God breathed into our soul, that portion which the animals did not receive is called the neshâmâh, from Gen 2:7. {bold by BORN AGAIN}
Actually, I think that it can be proven that the animals also received the neshâmâh.
When the flood of Noah occurred, it is written there of the animals that "all in whose nostrils was the breath {neshâmâh} of life, died":
Genesis 7
21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
22 All in whose nostrils was the breath {Hebrew, neshâmâh} of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
So human beings are "nephesh chayya" and animals are "nephesh chayya" and human beings have the "neshâmâh" and animals have the "neshâmâh".
there is a third thing in which human beings differ from animals, however, and that is that it is only said of human beings that they were made in the image and likeness of God.
Genesis 1
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
that, is not said of the animals.
Bless the LORD YHWH of Israel, I am BORN AGAIN in the USA by the of Yashua-Jesus
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BORN AGAIN
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dear Bloodbought, you write quote:
Gen 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
So we see here that animals have a soul, anything with life has a soul
No, the Old Testament teaches that man is or became a living soul or living creature.
When we in English use the word "creature" for an animal, we look at the whole animal as it stands there and we call it a "creature", a "nephesh" or a "living creature" or "nephesh chayya".
Human beings are also called "nephesh chayya" or "living creature" or "living soul".
The word "soul" in 17th century England meant "person" and it still does today in phrases like, "the pooor soul" by which the "whole person" is meant.
So Bloodbought, man does not have a "nephesh", man "is a living nephesh" or "living creature" and in that regard we are just like the animals, whom the Old Testament identically calls "living creatures":
Genesis 1
21And God created great whales, and every living creature {Hebrew, "nephesh chayya"} that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly...
The KJV translators were probably so dumbstruck when reading this equality with animals in the 1600s, that the KJV translators showed their superiority complex when they called us "living souls" and called animals "living creatures".
bless the LORD of Israel, I am BORN AGAIN in the USA by the
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HisGrace writes quote:
Why were Jesus' sermons short , and why did he speak in parables? - to keep it simple.
Not everyone has access to interpretations in Hebrew and Greek. If we really spend quality time in the Word, all of sudden what seems complicated becomes simple.
Often I have had questions about certain scriptures, and as I spend time meditating and absorbing them, a light will come on and the answer becomes very clear.
The more attuned we are with the scriptures, the more simple they become.
English-only meditation and aborption is inferior to also-Greek and also-Hebrew meditation and aborption.
When you say that Jesus kept if "short and simple", yes, but He also spoke in Aramaic and/or Greek to them, and maybe in Hebrew, since Paul knew Hebrew and Paul's listeners apparently knew Hebrew:
Acts 21:40
And when he had given him licence, Paul stood on the stairs, and beckoned with the hand unto the people. And when there was made a great silence, he spake unto them in the Hebrew tongue, saying,
Acts 22:2
And when they heard that he spake in the Hebrew tongue to them, they kept the more silence: and he saith,)
Acts 26:14
And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
English will always one and two steps away from the original that happened in Greek and Hebrew.
bless the LORD YHWH of Israel, I am BORN AGAIN in the USA by the
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epouraniois
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Thinking on Lazurus, I thought I'd share this rather telling verse, as it is easily followed in the English;
Rev 19:10
And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
so John has fallen down in worship of this angel, which says don't do that. The interesting part is the reason why:
I am
thy fellow servant
of thy brethren
that have the testimony of Jesus
We have here then, an angel who was of the tribe of Judah, which John was, a Jew having the oracles of God, which are the testimony of the Christ, for the Scriptures are they which testify of Him, "Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God". Heb 10:7
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epouraniois
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quote:
Originally posted by Bloodbought:
epouraniois,
I must confess I can’t find a word in the verses that have the word for soul, sorry.
You said in an earlier post.
quote:
Regarding Luke and the great gulf, on one side there is want of water, just one drop. Why? Because it isn't the water we swim in, but that living water of truth that is desired. Remember the rich man wanted his relatives to be made aware of that which he did not believe. It is the living water of the word which he so sought to have even just one drop:
You seem to have done the same as me, put your own words to it.
How did you conclude this was the living water of the word which he so sought to have even just one drop?
Please do go back and read the supporting verses, but always ask me in case I have failed to do so, and this too, is based upon some rather deep studies into ch16. I do endeavor to provide the verses along with the object and subject, although I only provided two witness verses, there are many many more, such as:
1Pe 1:22-23
Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto...by the word of God, which liveth and abideth forever.
But the Lazurus epic has to do with a carnal man with the riches and cares of this life meeting across taht great gulf. On one side is Abraham's bossom, Abraham, the friend of God. On the other side, the judgment side of the great gulf afixed, the rich man is desirous if by any means someone can go back and warn those who he cares about in the flesh. It is uponn this that the man is thirsty for even one drop. And one thing we know about parables, is that they speak of more and never less, as with most every Figure of Speech. You see, it is even probable that there is conversation between these, as we have read, the spirit returns to God who gave it, but the soul goes into the pit and remembers not any thing, that is to say, the body.
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Bloodbought
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epouraniois,
I must confess I can’t find a word in the verses that have the word for soul, sorry.
You said in an earlier post.
quote:
Regarding Luke and the great gulf, on one side there is want of water, just one drop. Why? Because it isn't the water we swim in, but that living water of truth that is desired. Remember the rich man wanted his relatives to be made aware of that which he did not believe. It is the living water of the word which he so sought to have even just one drop:
You seem to have done the same as me, put your own words to it.
How did you conclude this was the living water of the word which he so sought to have even just one drop?
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epouraniois
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quote:
BB
Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
Here you have both the body and the soul. The body is dead, well, not physically, but it is dead spiritually. The body is actually useless spiritually. It is the life or soul that counts. The soul is what is born-again and changed into a new creature in Christ.
no no, no, here you are adding your words and pretending God has written them, for the word soul nor spirit is present in the verse, nor is it the subject or grammatical objective point of that which is written. the same with adam in Gen2. 7, adam wasn't given a soul, he didn't receive a soul, he became a soul, that is to say, living flesh breathing man.
Let us give honor to that which IS written, being workmen not ashamed.
Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Why, if my soul is not my body, do I read that the soul can be killed by men, and that the soul is buried in the ground?
THE BODY IS USELESS SPIRITUALLY?
WHAT? MAYBE YOUR'S IS, not mine!
WHERE ARE THE VERSES FOR THAT?
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ
SPIRIT IN THE NT:
MAN (psychologically), pneuma being imparted to man, making him "a living psuche" ( = "a living soul", or being, as in Gen. 2:7. Ps. 104:29, 30. Ecc. 12:7). When taken back to and by God, man, without pneuma, becomes and is called "a dead soul" in each of the thirteen occurrences rendered in A.V. "dead body", &c.
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epouraniois
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Words have a pedigree, they don't just mean anything we want them to mean, but if they do, then why study at all?
Nephesh is used of Man, as being slain of killed by man, in fifty-four passages,
and
Nephesh is used of Man as being mortal, subject to death of various kinds, from which it can be saved and delivered and life prolonged, in 243 passages, just one small example I asked you to look at in that link I provided,
and
Nephesh is used of man, as actually dead, in thirteen passages,
and
Nephesh is used of Man, as exercising mental faculties, and manifesting certain feelings and affections and passions, in 231 passages,
and
Nephesh is used of Man, as possessing animal appetites and desires, in twenty-two passages,
and
Nephesh is used of Man, as exercising certain powers, or performing certain acts (may be often well rendered by emphatic pronouns), in ninety-six passages,
and
Nephesh is used of Man, as an individual person, in 53 passages,
and
Nephesh is used of the Lower Animals and Man in seven passages,
and
Nephesh is used of the lower animals only, in twenty-two passages.
we can eigther lean upon God's understanding and respect His usage, or upon ours respecting ourselves, that is our choices.
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Bloodbought
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From epouraniois,
quote:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
natural = psuchikos = soul = psuche
See it? The natural body is the soul, whereas the non-carnal (spiritual body) = pneumatikos.
No, It has already been shown from scripture on this thread that the body is not the soul.
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
The natural body is “aphar:H6083 = dust ”.
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
I believe the life within the body is the soul and once the life or the soul leaves the body the body dies and becomes dust.
When the body is raised at the resurrection, it is raised a spiritual body fitted for eternity and the eternal soul that came from God unites with the spiritual body again.
You brought up another interesting scripture.
Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
Here you have both the body and the soul. The body is dead, well, not physically, but it is dead spiritually. The body is actually useless spiritually. It is the life or soul that counts. The soul is what is born-again and changed into a new creature in Christ.
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epouraniois
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I read that it is "the spirit which returns to God who gave it", not the soul, as the soul is that which goes into the grave, but the spirit must needs to have a different 'house', a body uncorruptible if you will:
Perhaps this will help, but read very carefully and fully:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
natural = psuchikos = soul = psuchē
See it? The natural body is the soul, whereas the non-carnal (spiritual body) = pneumatikos.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit (pneuma).
Yet the breath that God breathed into our soul, that portion which the animals did not receive is called the neshâmâh, from Gen 2:7.
It is this word neshâmâh which the word 'air' from 1Th 4:17 is traced back to. When Christ comes to the earth from heaven, those who are earthly shall be caught up into this breath of life body, the neshâmâh.
At the same time though, these words are never written of the church which is His body, said to manifest with Him when He manifest in glory, for He is not now manifest, as He is hid in God, Col3.3, 4.
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Bloodbought
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Study of the Hebrew and Greek is very important Born Again, although in the past, when I picked out a word sometimes I tended to go round in circles to find the meaning, when I should have been looking at the context to see what the Spirit is teaching.
From epouraniois,
quote:
Regarding Luke and the great gulf, on one side there is want of water, just one drop. Why? Because it isn't the water we swim in, but that living water of truth that is desired. Remember the rich man wanted his relatives to be made aware of that which he did not believe. It is the living water of the word which he so sought to have even just one drop:
That was well expounded epouraniois.
When we read God’s word, some words that we relate to in the physical are intended to be taken spiritually. Look at this simple word “water, Greek hudor:G5204” what does it mean? We tend to think of it as what we get when we turn on the tap, but as has been pointed out hudor:G5204 can mean the Word.
The word translated (“soul” nephesh:H5315) is interesting.
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Chay:H2416 nephesh:H5315.
The first mention of (Chay:H2416 nephesh:H5315 translated living creature or living soul) is found in Gen 1 before man was created.
Gen 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
So we see here that animals have a soul, anything with life has a soul, but anything dead has no soul, they can be called a dead soul, or dead creature, or a dead body because their life has ceased. However as far as the human is concerned, life never ceases, so the life, or the soul, or the creature if you like, returns to God.
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epouraniois
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quote:
Why were Jesus' sermons short , and why did he speak in parables? - to keep it simple.
Christ gave us the reason for the parables:
Mat 13:12
For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Mat 13:13
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mat 13:14
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mat 13:15
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Mat 13:16
But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
As far as the sermons being short, the assumption is that He came to give sermons, whereas He Himself says He came to fulfill prophecy in Luk 24:25, 26; 44; while John writes that "And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name". Joh 20:30-31
While Christ said, "I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now". Joh 16:12
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
I disagree in this case with Bloodbought when Bloodbought says: quote:
Sometimes we can make complicated what God intended to be simple.
you seem to be implying, "oh let's keep it simple and let's not get overly complicated." However, I do believe in studying the underlying Greek and Hebrew to see what word underlies the English
Such study is important because for instance the word "hell" is used for "gehenna" and for "hades" and for "tartaroo" in the original Greek of the NT.
It would indeed be "shortsighted" and "simplistic" to say "oh, that is too complicated and let's keep it simple", for the only way to get a richer understanding of the Word of God is by going underneath the English to the Greek words and the Hebrew words, which refines things even more.
the LORD of Israel bless, BORN AGAIN
Why were Jesus' sermons short , and why did he speak in parables? - to keep it simple.
Not everyone has access to interpretations in Hebrew and Greek. If we really spend quality time in the Word, all of sudden what seems complicated becomes simple.
Often I have had questions about certain scriptures, and as I spend time meditating and absorbing them, a light will come on and the answer becomes very clear.
The more attuned we are with the scriptures, the more simple they become.
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epouraniois
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soul:
Jer 38:16 So Zedekiah the king swore secretly unto Jeremiah, saying, As the LORD liveth, that made us this soul, I will not put thee to death, neither will I give thee into the hand of these men that seek thy life.
nephesh
neh'-fesh
From H5314; properly a breathing creature, that is, animal or (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental): - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead (-ly), desire, X [dis-] contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortality, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.
We must keep in mind too, that depending upon who is being spoken to, different words are used, for ex, the Greek philosophers had no conception of things never revealed to them, so yes, we find them being reasoned with using terms that they themselves can relate to.
There is only one book in all of the Bible which is written to non believers, to the end that they might have life on His name, and that is the Gospel of John. Note, John's gospel does not use the word hell. Paul does not use the word hell. It is a word similar to repentance in that both are directed towards the nation of the Hebrews.
Zec 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.
Nearly a thousand occurrances, and we are hard pressed to find any which speak of the soul as residing inside of man. Everywhere though we can find that the soul possess' intellect, the soul is buried while the spirit returns to God who gave it, &c.
It is of import that the breath breathed into man was not the same one breathed into the animals.
soul:
Gen 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life
Gen 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth
Gen 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind
Gen 9:5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.
Psa 42:1 To the chief Musician, Maschil, for the sons of Korah. As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God.
But I really don't think it is worth arguing about, certainly not if it isn't even worth looking up all the occurrances to see how God makes use of His words, for if we would just do that, there would be no disagreement with any of these words.
Regarding 'hell', yes, sometimes the word is used in a Figure of speech to add emphasis and color to the idea, but it is always the grave, and the pit the soul goes into when the body dies. There is a reason for the continuity which runs throughout.
Once the spirit returns to God who gave it, the spirit is not just floating around in non space time, it has a body for a house to be clothed upon called an oikētērion.
Regarding Luke and the great gulf, on one side there is want of water, just one drop. Why? Because it isn't the water we swim in, but that living water of truth that is desired. Remember the rich man wanted his relatives to be made aware of that which he did not believe. It is the living water of the word which he so sought to have even just one drop:
Amo 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD
Joh 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
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BORN AGAIN
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hey, thanks for that, epouraniois, I read most of "the grave" and "sheol" post and "gehenna" and "hades".
I disagree in this case with Bloodbought when Bloodbought says: quote:
Sometimes we can make complicated what God intended to be simple.
you seem to be implying, "oh let's keep it simple and let's not get overly complicated."
However, I do believe in studying the underlying Greek and Hebrew to see what word underlies the English.
Such study is important because for instance the word "hell" is used for "gehenna" and for "hades" and for "tartaroo" in the original Greek of the NT.
It would indeed be "shortsighted" and "simplistic" to say "oh, that is too complicated and let's keep it simple", for the only way to get a richer understanding of the Word of God is by going underneath the English to the Greek words and the Hebrew words, which refines things even more.
the LORD of Israel bless, BORN AGAIN
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epouraniois
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194 from the Companion Bible.
"THE SPIRITS IN PRISON" (1 Peter 3:19).
A correct understanding of this passage may be obtained by noting the following facts:
1. Men are never spoken of in Scripture as "spirits". Man has a spirit, but he is not "a spirit", for a spirit hath not flesh and bones". In this life man has "flesh and blood", a "natural" (or psychical) body. At death this spirit "returns to God Who gave it" (Ps. 31:5. Eccles. 12:7. Luke 23:46. Acts 7:59). In resurrection "God giveth it a body as it hath pleased Him" (1Cor. 15:38). This is no longer a "natural" (or psychical) body, but a "spiritual body" (1Cor. 15:44).
2. Angels are "spirits", and are so called (Heb. 1:7, 14).
3. In 2Pet. 2:4 we read of "the angels that sinned"; and in 1Pet. 3:19, 20 of spirits "which sometime were disobedient ... in the days of Noah". In 2Pet. 2:4 we are further told that the fallen angels are reserved unto judgment, and delivered into chains (i.e. bondage or "prison"). Cp. Jude 6.
4. The cause of their fall and the nature of their sin are particularly set forth by the Holy Spirit in Jude 6, 7.
a. They "left their own habitation".
b. This "habitation" is called (in Greek) oiketerion, which occurs again only in 2Cor. 5:2, where it is called our "house" (i.e. body) with which we earnestly long to be "clothed upon"; referring to the "change" which shall take place in resurrection. This is the spiritual resurrection body of 1Cor. 15:44.
c. This spiritual body (or oiketerion) is what the angels "left" (whatever that may mean, and this we do not know). The word rendered "left", here, is peculiar. It is apoleipo = to leave behind, as in 2Tim.
4:13, 20, where Paul uses it of "the cloke" and the "parchments" which he left behind at Troas, and of
Trophimus whom he left behind at Miletum. Occ. Heb. 4:6, 9; 10:26. Jude 6.
d. They "kept not their first estate (arche)" in which they were placed when they were created.
e. The nature of their sin is clearly stated. The sin of "Sodom and Gomorrha" is declared to be "in like manner" to that of the angels; and what that sin was is described as "giving themselves over to
fornication, and going after strange flesh" (Jude 6, 7). The word "strange" here denotes other, i.e. different (Gr. heteros = different in kind. See Ap. 124. 2) What this could be, and how it could be, we are not told. We are not asked to understand it, but to believe it. (see further in App. 23 and 25).
5. In Gen. 6:1 ,2, 4 we have the historical record, which is referred to in the Epistles of Peter and Jude. There these "angels" are called "the sons of God". This expression in the Old Testament is used always of "angels", because they were not "begotten", but created, as Adam was created, and he is so called in Luke 3:38 (cp. Gen. 5:1). It is used of angels eight times: Gen. 6:2, (*1) 4. Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7. Ps. 29:1 (R.V.m.); and Dan. 3:25. In this last passage there is no article, and it does not mean "the Son of God", but "a son of God", i.e. an angel who was sent into the furnace (Dan. 3:28), as one was into the den of lions (Dan. 6:22). In one passage (Hos. 1:10) the English expression is used of men, but there the Hebrew is different, and it refers only to what men should be "called", not to what they were.
6. Returning to 1Pet. 3:19, the expression "the spirits in prison" cannot be understood apart form the whole context. The passage commences with the word "For" (v. 17), and is introduced as the reason why "it is better, if the will of God should (so) will, to suffer for well-doing, than for evil-doing. FOR (v. 18) Christ also suffered for sins once (Gr. hapax) - a Just One for unjust ones - in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death indeed as to [His] flesh, but made alive as to [His] spirit." This can refer only to His spiritual resurrection body (1Cor. 15:45). In death His body was put in the grave (or sepulcher, i.e. Hades), Acts 2:31; but His spirit was "commended to God". Not until His spirit was reunited to the body in resurrection could He go elsewhere. And then He went not to "Gehenna", or back to Hades but to Tartarus (2Pet. 2:4. See Ap. 131. III), where "the angels who sinned" had been "delivered into chains". To these He proclaimed His victory.
7. The word rendered "preached" is not the usual word euangelizo (Ap. 121. 4), but the emphatic word kerusso (Ap. 121. 1); which means to proclaim as a herald. Even so Christ heralded His victory over death, and the proclamation of this reached to the utmost bounds of creation.
It was "better" THEREFORE to suffer for well doing than for evil doing. He had suffered for well doing. He suffered, but He had a glorious triumph. "Therefore" (runs the exhortation), "if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye" (vs. 14), and it concludes "Forasmuch then as Christ suffered on our behalf as to the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind; for He that hath suffered in the flesh hath done with sin; no longer to live [our] remaining time according to men's lusts, but for God's will... For to this end, to those also who are now dead, were the glad tidings announced, that though (Gr. men) they might be judged according [to the will of] (*2) men, in [the] flesh, yet (Gr. de) they might live [again] according to [the will of] God, in [the] spirit" : i.e. in resurrection (1Pet. 4:1, 2, 6).
The above is suggested as the interpretation of the expression "the in-prison spirits", in the light of the whole of the nearer and remoter contexts.
(*1) In the first passage (Gen. 6:2) the Alexandrine MS of the Septuagint has "angels" (not "sons"), showing how it was then understood.
(*2) For the supply of this ellipsis see Rom 8:27, 28, and cp. 1Pet 4:19.
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Bloodbought
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Sometimes we can make complicated what God intended to be simple. We are in a physical realm, but God is in a spiritual realm and seeks to teach us in a way that we can understand. We cant see the spiritual, but we can see the physical and God knows that the best way to give us some insight to the spiritual is to give us some physical parallel. While we are on earth we will never know what hell is.
Regarding the rich man we are told in Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Verse 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Lazarus was carried to a place of comfort, but the rich man wasn’t carried anyplace.
After the final breath is drawn the saved are carried into glory, but the wicked fall into the pit of torment.
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epouraniois
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Idon't know how manhy of the occurrances you all have looked up, but I have looked up every single one of them. It wasnt' that large of a task, as that is how I study anyways. some words have more occurances than others, this word has alot, but it's no big deal.
What I have learned from looking up the occurances of this particular word is that it is used of the body with it's 5 senses.
It is used of the intellect that resides within the body, ie, soul, and so translated, it is used mostly of the body which can die, the body which goes down into the pit or grave, and that of people who are alive, whether in resurrection or on in the flesh.
one thing I have not found God doing is mixing His metaphores. He always uses the same ones in the same way. If He did not, we would be able to call it doublemindedness, and God is not double minded.
REgarding Rev6, I have already listed the meaning above, but here it is again:
psuche, used of man as an individual (just as we speak of a ship going down with every soul on board, or of so many lives being lost in a railway accident), occurs 14 times, and is rendered
"soul" : Acts 2:41, 43; 3:23; 7:14; 27:37. Rom. 2:9; 13:1. 1Cor. 15:45. James 5:20. 1Pet. 3:20. 2Pet. 2:14. Rev. 6:9; 18:13; 20:4.
Regarding the word hell, again, if we want to see how God's understands the meaning of the word, we must open the book and look up all the occurrances of the word and see how God has seen fit to so use it, here is a help for those who have not looked up every occurrance as they should:
"Hell" is the English rendering of two different Greek words in the N.T.
The English word is from the Anglo-Saxon hel, Genitive case helle = a hidden place, from the Anglo-Saxon helan = to hide.
It is in the N.T. used as the translation of two Greek words :--
I. Gehenna. Gr. geenna. This is the transliteration of the Heb. Gai' Hinnom, i.e. the Valley of Hinnom or "the Valley" of [the sons of] Hinnom, where were the fires through which children were passed in the worship of Moloch.
In the O.T. Tophet was the Heb. word used, because it was a place in this valley.
In our Lord's day the idolatry had ceased, but the fires were still continually burning there for the destruction of the refuse of Jerusalem. Hence, geenna was used for the fires of destruction associated with the judgment of God. Sometimes, "geenna of fire". See 2Kings 23:10. Isa. 30:33. Jer. 7:31, 32; 19:11-14.
Geenna occurs 12 times, and is always rendered "hell", viz. Matt. 5:22, 29, 30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15, 33. Mark 9:45, 47. Luke 12:5. Jas. 3:6.
II. Hades. Gr. hades, from a (privative) and idein, to see (Ap. 133. I. i); used by the Greeks for the unseen world.
The meaning which the Greeks put upon it does not concern us; nor have we anything to do with the imaginations of the heathen, or the traditions of Jews or Romanists, or the teachings of demons or evil spirits, or of any who still cling to them.
The Holy Spirit has used it as one of the "words pertaining to the earth", and in so doing has "purified" it, "as silver tried in a furnace" (see notes on Ps. 12:6). From this we learn that His own words "are pure", but words belonging to this earth have to be "purified".
The Old Testament is the fountain head of the Hebrew language. It has no literature behind it. But the case is entirely different with the Greek language. The Hebrew Sheol is a word Divine in its origin and usage. The Greek Hades is human in its origin and comes down to us laden with centuries of development, in which it has acquired new senses, meanings, and usages.
Seeing that the Holy Spirit has used it in Acts 2:27, 31 as His own equivalent of Sheol in Psalm 16:10, He has settled, once for all, the sense in which we are to understand it. The meaning He has given to Sheol in Ps. 16:10 is the one meaning we are to give it wherever it occurs in the N.T., whether we transliterate it or translate it. We have no liberty to do otherwise, and must discard everything outside the Word of God.
The word occurs eleven times (Matt. 11:23; 16:18. Luke 10:15; 16:23. Acts 2:27, 31. 1Cor. 15:55. Rev. 1:18; 6:8; 20:13, 14); and is rendered "hell" in every passage except one, where it is rendered "grave" (1Cor. 15:55, marg. "hell").
In the R.V. the word is always transliterated "Hades", except in 1Cor. 15:55 (where "death" is substituted because of the reading, in all the texts, of thanate for hade), and in the American R.V. also.
As Hades is the Divine Scriptural equivalent of Sheol, further light may be gained from Ap. 35, and a reference to the 65 passages there given. It may be well to note that while "Hades" is rendered "hell" in the N.T. (except once, where the rendering "the grave" could not be avoided), Sheol, its Hebrew equivalent, occurs 65 times, and is rendered "the grave" 31 times (or 54%); "hell" 31 times (4 times with margin "the grave", reducing it to 41.5%); and "pit" only 3 times (or 4.5 %).
"The grave", therefore, is obviously the best rendering, meaning the state of death (Germ. sterbend, for which we have no English equivalent); not the act of dying, as an examination of all the occurrences of both words will show.
1. The rendering "pit" so evidently means "the grave" that it may at once be substituted for it (Num. 16:30, 33. Job 17:16).
2. The rendering "the grave" (not "a grave", which is Hebrew keber or bor) exactly expresses the meaning of both Sheol and Hades. For, as to direction, it is always down: as to place, it is in the earth: as to relation, it is always in contrast with the state of the living (Deut. 32:22-25 and 1Sam. 2:6-8); as to association, it is connected with mourning (Gen. 37:34, 35), sorrow (Gen. 42:38. 2Sam. 22:6. Ps. 18:5; 116:3), fright and terror (Num. 16:27, 34) mourning (Isa. 38:3, 10, 17, 18), silence (Ps. 6:5; 31:17. Ecc. 9:10), no knowledge (Ecc. 9:5, 6, 10), punishment (Num. 16:29, 34. 1Kings 2:6, 9. Job 24:19. Ps. 9:17 (R.V. = re-turned), corruption (Ps. 16:10. Acts 2:27, 31); as to duration resurrection is the only exit from it (Ps. 16:11. Acts 2:27, 31; 13:33-37. 1Cor. 15:55. Rev. 1:18; 20:5, 13, 14).
III. Tartaroo (occurs only in 2Pet. 2:4) = to thrust down to Tartarus, Tartarus being a Greek word, not used elsewhere, or at all in the Sept. Homer describes it as subterranean (cp. Deut. 32:22, which may refer to this). The Homeric Tartarus is the prison of the Titans, or giants (cp. Heb. Rephaim, Ap. 25), who rebelled against Zeus.
The first occurrence of this word is in Gen. 37:35, where it is rendered "grave". It occurs sixty-five times in the Hebrew of the Old Testament; and only by studying each passage by itself can the student hope to gather the Biblical usage of the word. All heathen or traditional usages are not only worthless, but mischievous. The following are all the passages where the word "Sheol" occurs, with the rendering in each passage indicated thus : 1 = grave, 2 = pit, 3 = hell.
1. Gen. 37:35. 3. Ps. 18:5. 1. Ecc. 9:10.
1. Gen. 42:38. 1. Ps. 30:3. 1. Song 8:6.
1. Gen. 44:29, 31. 1. Ps. 31:17. 3. Isa. 5:14.
2. Num. 16:30, 33. 1. Ps. 49:14, 14, 15. 3. Isa. 14:9 (marg. grave).
3. Deut. 32:22. 3. Ps. 55:15 (marg. grave). 1. Isa. 14:11.
1. 1Sam. 2:6. 3. Ps. 86:13 (marg. grave). 3. Isa. 14:15.
3. 2Sam. 22:6. 1. Ps. 88:3. 3. Isa. 28:15, 18.
1. 1Kings 2:6, 9. 1. Ps. 89:48. 1. Isa. 38:10.
1. Job 7:9. 3. Ps. 116:3. 1. Isa. 38:18.
3. Job 11:8. 3. Ps. 139:8. 3. Isa. 57:9.
1. Job 14:13. 1. Ps. 141.7. 1. Ezek. 31:15.
1. Job 17:13. 1. Prov. 1:12. 3. Ezek. 31:16, 17.
2. Job 17:16. 3. Prov. 5.5. 3. Ezek. 32:21, 27.
1. Job 21:13. 3. Prov. 7:27. 1. Hos. 13:14, 14.
1. Job 24:19. 3. Prov. 9:18. 3. Amos 9:2.
3. Job 26:6. 3. Prov. 15:11, 24. 3. Jonah 2:2 (marg. grave).
1. Ps. 6:5. 3. Prov. 23:14. 3. Hab. 2:5.
3. Ps. 9:17. 3. Prov. 27:20.
3. Ps. 16:10. 1. Prov. 30:16.
As meaning "THE grave," it is to be distinguished from keber, A grave, or, burying-place (from kabar, to bury, first occurrence Gen. 23:4) : and bor, a pit, generally hewn in the rock, hence used of a cistern (Gen. 37:20) or a dungeon, &c., when dry. (See note on the word "well" in Gen. 21:19.)
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Bloodbought
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From Born Again.
quote:
just because John is by the Spirit seeing things in "come up here", what he sees is not happening in heaven. E.g., the horses of Rev.6:8 are on the earth, etcetera:
This is true.
Those who are slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held takes place on earth. However, their souls are not slain, they are very much alive.
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Up to this point they are in heaven and told to be patient until others are slain as they were verse 11, but later John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband Rev 21:2.
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BORN AGAIN
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Bloodbought writes quote:
The souls of them that were slain for the word of God were under the altar in heaven Born Again.
just because John is by the Spirit seeing things in "come up here", what he sees is not happening in heaven. E.g., the horses of Rev.6:8 are on the earth, etcetera:
Revelation 6
7And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
8And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger ...
9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held.
So just because John is in a "come and see" mode by the Spirit, the things he is seeing occur on earth.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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Bloodbought
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quote:
Sorry Bloodboght - I guess we answered at the same time.
No worries HisGrace.
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
[QB] Bloodbought writes quote:
in other words the soul will return to God for judgment.
and the spirit returns to God too?
Ecclesiastes 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return to God who gave it.
the dust and the spirit, but where is the soul?[/b]
We have our own souls; the spirit would be the Spirit of God, which belongs to God. A believer's soul will go to heaven.
Genesis 1:2
Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
Numbers 27:16
"May the LORD, the God of the spirits of all mankind, appoint a man over this community
1 Cor. 15:3 Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present.
Sorry Bloodboght - I guess we answered at the same time.
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Bloodbought
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The souls of them that were slain for the word of God were under the altar in heaven Born Again.
Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Before the fall Adam had perfect union and fellowship with God because the Spirit of God was with him. After the fall the Spirit of God left Adam because of sin and rebellion and an evil spirit stepped in and ruined Adam’s fellowship with God. Therefore God determined to reclaim His creation at a high price, the sacrifice of His only Son, so that once again The Spirit of God could take up residence.
The spirit whither good or evil is the powerhouse of the soul and the soul is the powerhouse of the body. When one is born-again by the Spirit of God both soul and spirit return to God.
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BORN AGAIN
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Bloodbought writes quote:
in other words the soul will return to God for judgment.
and the spirit returns to God too?
Ecclesiastes 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return to God who gave it.
the dust and the spirit, but where is the soul?
Revelation 6
9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held.
which altar was this? it was most likely the altar in the temple of Jerusalem on earth.
where does it say the soul goes back to God?
bless the God of Israel, BORN AGAIN
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Bloodbought
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Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
The body that was formed was nothing more than dust, but became alive by God breathing into it. The dust is the body and the life is the soul. It is the breath or Spirit of God that gives life and it is God that will withdraw life from the body, in other words the soul will return to God for judgment. God should be feared because He can destroy both soul and body or to put it another way, life and the dust it empowers in hell.
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
HisGrace writes quote:
The Bible simply confirms that there is a body, soul and spirit. I have never seen a soul walking down the street.
but neither have you seen a spirit walk down the street, right?
may the God of Israel bless, BORN AGAIN
Oh no, this is not true - just the other day I saw the spirit of my Aunt Bessie Mae walking down the street - just kidding. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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BORN AGAIN
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HisGrace writes quote:
The Bible simply confirms that there is a body, soul and spirit. I have never seen a soul walking down the street.
but neither have you seen a spirit walk down the street, right?
may the God of Israel bless, BORN AGAIN
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by timspong:
I read the link and I just can’t seem to follow your thought process at all. A mere statistical analysis on the use of the word "naphesh" is meaningless without internalizing each verse independently. You cannot quantify the word of God. I believe God will show us all the truth when we are ready to receive it.
It is impossible to fathom Gods Word using mans intellect. We can studiously prepare, but actual understanding comes only through revelation.
It is significant that I find it very difficult to understand your writings or find it hard to agree with you on any level. God may be using you to further my knowledge but in a very paradoxical way. I hope you are also learning something.
Amen - I don't understand all of the naphesh stuff. Jesus' sermons were short and simple. He even gave parables in order to make the message that much more easy to understand.
We can start analysing all of this stuff to death, so much so that we go off into all kinds of wild intellectually confusing tangents. The Bible simply confirms that there is a body, soul and spirit. I have never seen a soul walking down the street. Look at the scriptures that have been quoted.
Again - Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy B-O-T-H soul and body in hell.
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epouraniois
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HisGrace
you are thinking again, stop it. read the verses where the word is used, i have listed and provided a link. the word is always used for the physical body.
search and you will will see. if you do not search, you are left with your understanding and not God's.
which is better, your's, or God's.
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HisGrace
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The soul certainly isn't physically something tangible. Can you see it? Can you touch it?
However, the soul is the very essence of life and it's what keeps this body alive. If you have ever seen a person after they die, without all of the make-up put on by the furneral parlour; all you see is a lifeless, empty shell. The soul has left the body. Indeed it is us, but not a physical us.
Spiritually, there is a explanation of the body, soul and spirit, which I find clarifies a lot of confusion about their rightful place -
The soul stands, but the body and spirit have to be fed. The soul submits to the stronger of the two and takes over the character of the flesh or the character of the spirit.
The spirit prays. If the spirit is submissive to the will of God and saturates itself with good thinging, prayer and scripture reading, the soul will reflect that character.
If the body, which is of earthly flesh, submits to the world and its attractions, the soul will end up with trash.
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BORN AGAIN
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Dear brother timspong, you write quote:
Man’s physical body was made from the dust on the ground, but it wasn't until God breathed on him the breath of life that he received his soul. Obviously the soul is not a physical thing, but something else.{bold added by BORN AGAIN}
The Bible does not say that man received his soul when God breathed on him, but that man became a soul:
Genesis 2
7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
this word “soul” is the Hebrew word “nephesh”, and most closely approximates our English “being” or “creature”, as in “man became a living being” or “man became a living creature”.
Indeed, it needs to be said that the animals are also called nephesh in the Bible:
Genesis 1
21And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
In Hebrew, these words “living creature” are the same Hebrew words exactly as for “living soul”, both are “nephesh hayya” or “living creature.”
The translators of the KJV showed a bias when they translated “nephesh hayya” as “became a living soul” when it came to man, but when it came to men, all the courage the translators could muster for the same phrase, “nephesh hayya” was “living creatures” when it came to “animals.”
The fact is however that the Hebrew call both animals and humans “nephesh hayya” or “living creatures”.
so timspong, the Bible does NOT say that "man received a soul" but that "man became a soul" (a "nephesh hayya", and so did the whales.
but the Bible does say that we are spirit, soul and body:
1 Thessalonians 5
23And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
And then there is this:
Luke 10:27
And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and love your neighbour as yourself.
your heart, your soul, your strength, and your mind, a lot of parts, aren't they? so what is the soul in that case?
And this:
Luke 12
4And I say to you my friends, Be not afraid of them who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
5But I will forewarn you whom you shall fear: Fear him, who after he has killed has power to cast into hell {Gehenna}; yea, I say to you, Fear him.
If the body can be killed, what is being cast into hell {gehenna)?
May the God of Israel bless us all, I am BORN AGAIN in the USA
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every line is Biblical. For a little while I was stumped by "angels are called men", but then I remembered that the angels who appeared to Abram in the plain of Mamre were called men.
Genesis 18
1And the LORD appeared to him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
2And he looked up and, look, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground.
Genesis 19
1And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;
they are all Biblical (and bite-size) ![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif)
BORN AGAIN
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timspong
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I really am trying to see your point of view, however, the soul can not be a physical thing unlike the body (which is worth about $3.75 on the open market in basic materials).
The soul obviously brings meaning to the body, like a car is useless without a driver or a radio is useless without a power source.
I read the link and I just can’t seem to follow your thought process at all. A mere statistical analysis on the use of the word “naphesh” is meaningless without internalizing each verse independently. You cannot quantify the word of God. I believe God will show us all the truth when we are ready to receive it.
It is impossible to fathom Gods Word using mans intellect. We can studiously prepare, but actual understanding comes only through revelation.
It is significant that I find it very difficult to understand your writings or find it hard to agree with you on any level. God may be using you to further my knowledge but in a very paradoxical way. I hope you are also learning something.
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Yours in Christ
Timothy Michael Spong
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epouraniois
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quote:
Mans physical body was made from the dust on the ground, but it wasn't until God breathed on him the breath of life that he received his soul. Obviously the soul is not a physical thing, but something else.
I would tend to agree with you, all we have to do is replace God's pure words with our own, then the man adam received his soul.
But that isn't what a Bible student does is it? Replacement theology for our comfort, for our understanding?
In my view, the only interpretation that counts is God's, and He definately has written by the hand of a man through the vehicle of the HS that ADAM BECAME A LIVING SOUL, not, HE RECEIVED A SOUL.
here is the link to the appendix to the companion bible detailing each and every occurance, which I feel certain, if one is to actually look it up and see, brings God's interpretation to light on this subject as well as them all.
http://www.angelfire.com/nv/TheOliveBranch/append13.html
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timspong
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quote:
Originally posted by epouraniois:
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
spirit
soul = breath (containing the intellect = body)
body = the body (as a sound whole)
Mans physical body was made from the dust on the ground, but it wasn't until God breathed on him the breath of life that he received his soul. Obviously the soul is not a physical thing, but something else.
Personally I believe our soul is "our essence" and is what God wants to have an eternal relationship with.
Maybe our spirit is something like a sixth sense that shapes our soul and can receive both what is evil and what is good. Once saved, we are under the protection of the Holy Spirit who is our "rear guard" in spiritual matters.
Also the Holy Spirit would be able to communicate with our spirit to influence our soul. The amount He is able to influence our soul is inversely proportional to the amount of spiritual influence we allow our enemy to give us.
Just thoughts, nothing that I have thourghly biblically investigated yet, but doesn't seem to run contrary to any scripture that I am aware of.
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Yours in Christ
Timothy Michael Spong
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timspong
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quote:
Originally posted by epouraniois:
Like I said, it is time to open the book on this one and be the Berian, look up every occurance and you will see, but I can help a little here with Mat 10:28:
sōma, the body (as a sound whole)
psuchē, that which contains the breath
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Think about it. The word hell means grave, pit or deep pit, Biblically. If the soul is not what the Bible says it is, but is instead some spirit thing of some kind, how is going to be buried, that is to say, how is it going to be destroyed in hell, which is the grave, where all flesh is destroyed?
My understanding is that Hell is not a physical grave, it is a "spiritual" grave where ones soul spends eternity (in torment) if one is not "saved".
If Hell was a physical grave or pit, it would mean that most of us would go to hell whether we are saved or not. Which is certainly not the case.
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Yours in Christ
Timothy Michael Spong
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epouraniois
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Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
spirit
soul = breath (containing the intellect = body)
body = the body (as a sound whole)
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epouraniois
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Like I said, it is time to open the book on this one and be the Berian, look up every occurance and you will see, but I can help a little here with Mat 10:28:
sōma, the body (as a sound whole)
psuchē, that which contains the breath
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Think about it. The word hell means grave, pit or deep pit, Biblically. If the soul is not what the Bible says it is, but is instead some spirit thing of some kind, how is going to be buried, that is to say, how is it going to be destroyed in hell, which is the grave, where all flesh is destroyed?
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timspong
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From the following scriptures you can see that the spirit, body and soul are 3 distinct entities:
1 Thess 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
KJV
Heb 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
KJV
My thought is that the soul is what makes us individuals and is what goes to heaven. The spirit is what acts upon the soul to influence and form it.
I am not sure what our own “personal spirit” is, perhaps it is the part of us that Christians try to put to death to be replaced with the Holy Spirit? I don’t know, it is just a thought?
The next verse proves that the soul is definitely not the body (flesh).
Matt 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
KJV
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Yours in Christ
Timothy Michael Spong
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