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Author
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Topic: Tradition VS Written
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epouraniois
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
There were 100s on the cross upon the hill that day.
Whats your point?
Chapter and verse please.
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WildB
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Member # 2917
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posted
There were 100s on the cross upon the hill that day.
Whats your point?
--------------------
That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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epouraniois
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Luke does not commit himself definitely to precisely thirty years as the age of Christ. The Levites entered upon full service at that age, but that proves nothing about Jesus. God’s prophets enter upon their task when the word of God comes to them. Jesus may have been a few months under or over thirty or a year or two less or more.
he gospel of John does appear to indicate a longer ministry for there are three different Passovers mentioned in it's text. These are in verses 2:13, 6:4, and 11:55. All should agree without contention that the Passover of Jn 11:55 is the one where He was Crucified.
I should mention the obvious here. There is only one year (360 days) between Passovers, and even if there were three conventional Passovers here, that could only confirm only a little over two years. We know from the times mentioned in John's Gospel that the Baptism was only a few months at most prior to Jn 2:13.
So, with this obvious evidence in the gospel of John, there is no scriptural reason for a claim of a ministry length of three or three and a half years. Many, however, cling to such as if it were fact. As it turns out, the 3 and a half years ministry length is a necessary component the present confusion of some popular 'last days' prophecy, supposing to help explain the so-called missing 7 years of Dan 9:25, but that is a very deep, long, and different study.
In a study of Daniel and the 'weeks' prophecy, it has come to light that, indeed, Christ's flesh ministry was in fact a total of 434 days. It began at His baptism and ended on the second following Passover at the Crucifixion. There is a lot of scripture which builds to this conclusion, and we will go there. Following this, we will see the fulfillment of Dan 9:24, the seventy weeks, written in the accounts of the New Testament.
Before we look at the Passover of Jn 6:4 in detail, which we will shortly do, lets look into the Prophets and the Law in the context of those things written in John's gospel, which were fulfilled by Jesus.
John 1:35-37
35 Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples;
36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!
37 And the two disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus. (KJV)
Now, we know Jesus was our Passover Lamb forever, the acceptable sacrifice, for Paul says :
1 Cor 5:7
7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: (KJV)
Jesus confirms: John 12:27
27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour. (KJV)
We all know Jesus came to be the Passover Lamb, sacrificed for us. We know Jesus fulfilled all the Law and the Prophets. But do you remember what this Lamb was to be?
Exod 12:5-6
5 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:
6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening. (KJV)
Notice that according to the Law, the Lamb MUST be a male of the FIRST year. A lamb of more than first year age is not acceptable. Jesus, as the Lamb of God, as spoken by John Baptist, was indeed a male of the first year, beginning a year after his Baptism.
Quoting Isaiah the prophet, Jesus says:
Luke 4:18-21
18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears. (KJV)
Notice he says acceptable YEAR, not any other time such as 2 or 3 years.
Let us now examine the 'passover' of Jn 6:4. This Passover mentioned is worded differently compared to the ones n 2:13 and 11:55. One may truly ask why this would be, but like all things, it is written for our admonition and instruction.
Here is where you have to be a little wise. The Word clues it for you. Notice that both in Jn 2:13 and in 11:55, the wording is "the Jews Passover". (This SAME wording is used before AND after the mention of this "passover" in Jn 6:4. But in Jn 6:4 it is called "the passover, a feast of the Jews". What’s the difference?
Well if you look in 2 Chron 30, you will find that the second-month passover was re-established by king Hezekiah, a king of Judah, for those who couldn't keep the one on 15 Nisan. It was in the second month, (30 days after the regular passover). This is documented in the companion appendix 51 as well. This one was originally established by Moses < Num 9:10-11>, but apparently fell into misuse until it was reestablished by King Hezikiah. In Ezra 3:8, after the temple was reestablished (the 49 years) there is a feast of the second month mentioned. This one in Jn 6:4 is called a "feast of the Jews"- it was their tradition, the “tradition of the elders“. (ref Matt 15 and Mk 3)
Thus, it is simply that this ‘feast of the Jews’, perhaps began to be a traditional ‘substitute’ for the one true “Passover”, but in any case, it is obvious that Jesus did not keep it. Instead, He went and FED the folks. (See Jn 6:5-71). On the other 2 Passovers, (Jn 2:13 & Jn 11:55) He went to the Temple. Pay attention!! Notice in Numbers 9, the REASON that the second Passover was established. That this Passover was ignored by Jesus is obvious, for Chapter 7 mentions the feast of Tabernacles, which is 5 months later.
Certainly, Christ would never have failed to keep the required Passover as the Law stipulates that the keeping of the Passover is an ordinance forever. (Ex 12:14, many other places)
Finally, looking in Daniel, we see first that 70 week prophecy, in 9:24. Before we jump into proving the fulfillment of these 70 weeks by Christ, lets look at the length of the ministry, which I previously said was 434 days.
Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. (KJV)
(Notice that these MUST BE weeks of days, for Christ surely was not on earth for 62 weeks of years!!)
We can prove this 434 day time period from the Gospels, and a little help from knowing the Jew's feasts.
There is only one year (360) days between the two Passovers of Jn. (ch 2 and the one in ch 11). To this we add the forty days in the wilderness after His baptism, and the 3 days between Jn 1:32 and Jn 2:1, and the "not many days" of Jn 2:12.
But, instead of guessing, lets start at the termination of the ministry, which all know is the Passover preparation day (John 19:14, 31, 42> and accept the 62 week time as specified in Daniel 9:26, for after all Jesus has fulfilled the prophets up until now. So, 62 weeks are 7x62 or 434 days. There are 360 days between Passovers, leaving 74 days, 434-360=74. Since the Passover preparation day is always Nisan 14, two (30 day months) and 14 days earlier would bring us back to the first day of the month Sebat. Is the first of Sebat significant? Paul says in 1 Cor 10:1-4:
1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. (KJV)
We find, written for our edification:
Deut 1:3
3 And it came to pass in the fortieth year, in the eleventh month, on the first day of the month, that Moses spake unto the children of Israel, according unto all that the LORD had given him in commandment unto them; (KJV)
Sebat is the eleventh month:
Zech 1:7
7 Upon the four and twentieth day of the eleventh month, which is the month Sebat, in the second year of Darius, came the word of the LORD unto Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, the son of Iddo the prophet, saying, (KJV)
Deu 1:3 is an acceptable type, when taken with Dan 9:26 and the Gospel records, because Moses was a type of Christ to Israel, and Moses introduced the first Passover. This adds great meaning to the Words Christ quoted at the beginning. This is indeed the "acceptable year" of the Lord. Not, mind you, the acceptable "3 and a half years" as man says. (See Lk 4:19)
Coincidence or not, it is exactly 74 days from 1 Sebat to Nisan 14, and of course 360 days until the next Nisan 14. Thus, it is exactly 434 days, or the 62 weeks as prophesied in Dan 9:26 from the first day of Sebat, to the second following Passover preparation day, Nisan 14.
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BORN AGAIN
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epouraniois,
regarding those two and two made four bad guys, that was very interesting, and nice pix too.
regarding the length of Jesus's ministry, it does say that He started at age 30:
Luke 3:23
And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,
I suppose thereafter one could count the Passovers and other feasts that He went to, if that is possible, to determine how long His ministry actually was?
bless the LORD YHWH of Israel, ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif) BORN AGAIN
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epouraniois
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Not a three and a half year ministry, not even a three year ministry, indeed, not a two and a half year, nor a two year ministry.
Furthermore, not a one and a half year ministry, soooo,
what is it that is actually written?
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epouraniois
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I forgot to ask my difficult question, so here it is, and why is it difficult?
They tell us, and why we believe them I do not know, but they tell us that Christ's ministry was three and a half years, but I say that what when they have told us this, we have believed them without searching and seeing. I say this because what they have led us to believe is simply not written. Something IS written, but not a three and a half year ministry, that is for sure.
Any takers?
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epouraniois
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Seeing as I got no takers, I will open it up so everyone can open the Book and search and see, then ask another very difficult question:
There were two "thieves" (Gr. lestai = robbers, Matt. 27:38. Mark 15:27); and that there were two "malefactors" (Gr. kakouryoi, Luke 23:32).
It is also recorded that both the robbers reviled Him (Matt. 27:44. Mark 15:32); while in Luke 23:39 only one of the malefactors "railed on Him", and "the other rebuked him" for so doing (v. 40). If there were only two, this is a real discrepancy; and there is another, for the two malefactors were "led with Him to be put to death" (Luke 23:32), and when they were come to Calvary, "they" then and there "crucified Him and the malefactors, one on the right hand and the other on the left" (v. 33).
But the other discrepancy is according to Matthew, that after the parting of the garments, and after "sitting down they watched Him there", that "THEN" were there two robbers crucified with Him, one on the right hand and the other on the left" (Matt. 27:38. Mark 15:27). The two malefactors had already been "led with Him" and were therefore crucified "with Him", and before the two robbers were brought.
The first two (malefactors) who were "led with Him" were placed one on either side. When the other two (robbers) were brought, much later, they were also similarly placed; so that there were two (one of each) on either side, and the Lord in the midst. The malefactors were therefore the nearer, and being on the inside they could speak to each other better, and the one with the Lord, as recorded (Luke 23:39-43).
John's record confirms this, for he speaks only of place, and not of time. He speaks, generally of the fact : "where they crucified Him, and with Him others, two on this side, and that side, and Jesus in the midst" (John 19:8).
There are two words used of the "other" and "others" in John 19:32 and Luke 23:32. In the former passage we read, "they brake the legs of the first and of the other." Here the Greek is allos which is the other (the second) of the two when there are more (see Matt. 10:23; 25:16, 17, 20; 27:61; 28:1. John 18:15, 16; 20:2, 4, 8. and Rev. 17:10).
In the latter passage (Luke 23:32) the word is heteros = different: "and others also, two were being led with Him." These were different from Him with Whom they were led, not different from one another; for they were "in the same condemnation", and "justly", while He had "done nothing amiss" (vv. 40, 41).
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epouraniois
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Mislead by tradition, it is the general belief that only two were crucified with the Lord.
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