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Author
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Topic: can sins be forgiven without the cross?
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epouraniois
unregistered
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posted
Well said helpforhomeschoolers.
Remarking upon "that it was in the spiritual as in the natural", I am reminded of the two foldedness of prophetic truth once again, in reading Job w/Genesis following, I am somewhat prepared to glimpse of the conflict of the ages, showing forth of both the spiritual and the physical application and manifestations. If I might expound on the larger view for a moment:
Adam and Eve are placed in the garden. Dominion is given them. They are tempted and fall, and if the penalty had fallen upon them, the coming of the seed must have been frustrated. Cain slays Abel, and God gives Seth ‘instead’, thereby showing that ‘Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother because he was righteous’, was the tool in the hand of Satan who sought to prevent the coming of the Seed. The irruption of the ‘sons of God’, and the corruption of the seed of man, ending in the flood (Gen. 6), was another attempt to prevent the coming of the Seed. As yet Satan did not know through which family of the descendants of Adam the promised Seed should come, so he sought to pollute the whole race. Immediately after the flood Noah utters a prophetic word, which pointed out Shem as the chosen one.
Soon Abraham is called, and the promise of the land and of the Seed is given to him. Satan now centers his attack upon this man and this land. Taking advantage of the delay mentioned in Genesis 11:31, the evil one peopled the land of Canaan with the Nephilim, the Giants, the sons of Anak, and the Rephaim. The reading of Genesis 11:31 with 12:5,6 is very solemn:
‘And they went forth with them from Ur of the Chaldees, to go into the land of Canaan; and they came unto
Haran. and dwelt there’.
‘And they went forth to go into the land of Canaan; and into the land of Canaan they came ... And the
Canaanite was then in the land’
I this brought forward with a larger impact once it is realized the circumstances surrounding the first occurrances of the word 'sin' in the OT, contrast by what could be a question, In what way was Noah 'perfect' in his 'generations'?
In Job 38:7 the ‘sons of God’ are most certainly angelic beings and are associated with the ‘morning stars’ and their rejoicing at the laying of the foundations of the earth. When next we meet the title ‘The sons of God’ it is in that chapter of Genesis that speaks of the Flood in the days of Noah. We learn from Jude 6, that some angels fell, and their fall is in some way closely connected with the sin of Sodom (Jude 7), these were spirits in prison in the days of Christ, ‘which sometime were disobedient ... in the days of Noah’ (1 Pet. 3:19,20). According to Job 1, among the sons of God who presented themselves before the Lord was Satan. The name Satan comes thirteen times in the book of Job, a feature that will not pass unheeded by those who are acquainted with numbers in Scripture.
The title Satan occurs in but four other places in the Old Testament. Let us examine these passages.
1 Chronicles 21:1. Satan stands up against Israel and provokes David to number Israel. The consequences are disastrous, as a reading of the chapter will reveal. What is, however, a feature seldom or never connected with this attack of Satan, is the contextual association of one of the evil seed:
‘And yet again there was war at Gath, where was a man of great stature, whose fingers and toes were four and twenty, six on each hand, and six on each foot: and he also was the son of the giant ... they fell by the hand of David, and by the hand of his servants. And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel’ (1 Chron. 20:6,8; 21:1).
This numbering of Israel is recorded in 2 Samuel 24:1, and if we will read 2 Samuel 21:20-22, we shall see that the evil seed is still in the background, and brings me to the remembrance of my posting. They are again mentioned in 23:6 as ‘the sons of Belial’. No mention however is made in these records of the temptation of Satan, because the books of Samuel and of Kings give the history from the human standpoint, but the books of Chronicles going over the same ground, give the spiritual background and reveal the spiritual forces that were at work. Consequently in 2 Samuel there is no mention of the temptation of Satan, but 1 Chronicles 20 is like Job 1 and 2, it lifts the veil, and reveals the hidden unknown spiritual opposition of which neither David nor Joab were aware.
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helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
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posted
BA, I am sorry you dont like my avatar; it just goes to show that you cant please everyone. Hisgrace didnt like my Grinch, so I changed it and you dont like this one. I am thankful that I am not trying to please everyone. Perhaps you can put your sunglasses on ![[Cool]](cool.gif) and live with my avitar for the Christmas season? It is very pretty isn't it? I made it myself.
Regarding your question.
The Bible says no one took HIS life from HIM, but that HE laid it down. I think it is a mystery I cannot begin to understand..... God manifest HIM SELF in the flesh of Jesus and died for us in the flesh of Jesus... Christ is risen by the Spirit. The LAMB was God's Lamb- The Father God provided HIM;I have often wondered if the skins that God covered Adam & Eve with were not Lamb Skins; how was the lamb slain? I imagine that it was in the spiritual as in the natural..sin slew HIM.....perhaps the sin of Satan? The bible says he was a murderer from the beginning;(John 8:44) I imagine that what happened with Cain and Able was a natural picture of what happened in the Spiritual realm between Christ and Satan, except that unbenounced to Satan, The Lamb was not just any Lamb. Satan thought that he had slewn God's Lamb, but God's Lamb could not be slewn, he walked to the altar so to speak.
These things are a mystery for us... Not to be totally understood at this time. I think.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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epouraniois
unregistered
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posted
The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world, Rev 13:8.
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Eph 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
The plan of redemption is to save that which is lost, and while Israel are His lost sheep, the other nations are in the same catagory, needing to be saved. Everything in the OT spoke in picture words of the work on the cross, and it's unbelievable rejection by the people He came to enjoin.
Isa 42:9 Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.
Joh 13:19 Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.
Ecc 9:3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
Mat 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this.
Gen 2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to GUARD it.
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between THY SEED and HER SEED; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Gen 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to GUARD THE WAY OF the tree of life.
Deu 17:19 And it shall be with him, and he shall read therein all the days of his life: that he may learn to fear the LORD his God, to GUARD ALL THE WORDS OF this law and these statutes, to do them
Eph 4:3 Endeavoring to GUARD THE UNITY OF the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a FULL GROWN HUSBAND, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ
The very redemption money which formed the silver sockets were a free gift, and word for those sockets the tabernacle was to rest upon is 'foundation', and it is a representation of the foundation of Christ and this redemption money and this tabernacle is all pointing to that which is more real than the events and names of this shadow reality which points to the things not seen, but most surely believed.
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BORN AGAIN
unregistered
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posted
Dear sister helpforhomeschoolers, I was almost blinded by the flashing bulbs while trying to read the text next to them. I liked your post, though.
You wrote quote:
So in answer to your question, there was forgiveness of sins before the cross, but not before the blood. The blood was shed from the foundation when the Lamb of God was slain. {bold by BORN AGAIN}
regarding the bolded phrase, what does it mean to that “the blood was shed from the foundation”.
IOW, do you envision the Son Yahshua-Jesus in heaven being killed by Someone, or how do you see that statement’s reality?
Thanks, and the LORD YHWH God bless, ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif) BORN AGAIN
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helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
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posted
Sins have always been forgiven by grace; the lamb was slain from before the foundation of the world atoning for the sin of the just and the unjust. The just received grace from God which was given to those who demonstrated faith in HIS being true to HIS word.
Before the Law righteousness was imputed to Noah and to Job, and to and to Abraham, God gave this grace for their faithful obedience.
When the Law was given grace was attached to the law and those who followed it to the best of their human ability out of right heart and faith in God were given grace.
When God was manifest in the flesh of Jesus of Nazareth, Grace was manifest and Jesus became the Oject of faith. After the cross, grace was no longer found in the law, so those who follow it follow it without grace which is now manifest fully in Christ.
So in answer to your question, there was forgiveness of sins before the cross, but not before the blood. The blood was shed from the foundation when the Lamb of God was slain. This was then manifest for us in 33 or 34 AD which every your preference. Without the blood, there would be no remission of sin.
The blood made it legal for God to give grace to the sinner, it allowed HIM to remain a JUST GOD and still extend grace and forgiveness to those who did not deserve it.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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HisGrace
unregistered
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posted
We also hear about the Holy Spirit throughout the OT, so I believe this was allotted individually, person by person basis, as God saw fit.
After the Day of Pentecost it was available to all of mankind.
Just Before Jesus' Ascension into Heaven -
Acts 1:4-8 In one of these meetings as he was eating a meal with them, he told them, "Do not leave Jerusalem until the Father sends you what he promised. Remember, I have told you about this before. John baptized with water, but in just a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit."
When the apostles were with Jesus, they kept asking him, "Lord, are you going to free Israel now and restore our kingdom?"
"The Father sets those dates," he replied, "and they are not for you to know. But when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, you will receive power and will tell people about me everywhere--in Jerusalem, throughout Judea, in Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."
Acts 2:4 And everyone present was filled with the Holy Spirit and began speaking in other languages as the Holy Spirit gave them this ability.
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BORN AGAIN
unregistered
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posted
Mark 2
5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the sick of the palsy, Son, your sins be forgiven you.
We usually think that our sins can not have been forgiven until after Jesus did His work on the cross.
But here is a man whose sins were forgiven before Jesus went to the cross.
I guess Jesus, being God, can do what He wants even before the cross, as long as He sees faith. If God says his sins are forgiven, then his sins are forgiven, without the cross.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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