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Topic: "tongues-speaking", is it from the LORD or a counterfeit from Lucifer-Satan?
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Miguel
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Member # 47
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posted
Act 16:16 And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:
Act 16:17 The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.
Act 16:18 And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.
Act 16:19 And when her masters saw that the hope of their gains was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and drew them into the marketplace unto the rulers,
Act 16:20 And brought them to the magistrates, saying, These men, being Jews, do exceedingly trouble our city,
Act 16:21 And teach customs, which are not lawful for us to receive, neither to observe, being Romans.
And evil spirit "proclaiming" confessing that these men are servants of GOD.
So much for confession! Devils confess The Redeemer!
If you will here some like this today from a lady "Bishop Mc Grilling and Bishop Mc froths are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation." would your first response is negative or you will look and give praise? I think you all will be giving praise! I the same manner today is this counterfeit power for they all trying to imitate Christ Jesus in His Deity. They buy this kind of action faster than a gallon of milk! Why? For the Word of God is not sufficient and alone they needing another source of truth to please the sinful nature. They can’t hold on unto the Authority of the Word of God alone, it is too much to handle. I need the church tradition and after that the Word of God falls in it is rightful place. Sad! But that is what we are in this final period when He shall be reveal in the same manner He was caught up…
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Romans 9:11-24
Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!
Posts: 2792 | From: Stockton,Ca | Registered: Jun 2002
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Miguel
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Member # 47
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So it does not matter if you believed in dispensational view of the Promise, Law, Grace, Amill, Post, Pre.........
as long as God have us founded on this;
Eph 2:14 For He is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in His flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in Himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Eph 2:16 And that He might reconcile both unto God in One Body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Eph 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
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Romans 9:11-24
Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!
Posts: 2792 | From: Stockton,Ca | Registered: Jun 2002
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Pleasemaranatha
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Dear Epouraniois,
You are a nice person, sincere, kind and I wish you the best of everything. I saw your soft side
for a few seconds. It was beautiful.
Good advice to put it on the shelf.
Thanks again for writing back.
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My soul waiteth for the Lord more than they that watch for the morning. Psalms 130 verse 6
Joyce
Posts: 308 | From: Missouri | Registered: Oct 2005
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epouraniois
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Of the writings occurring during the Acts period, each having the subject of the kingdom being restored to Israel and bearing the mark of the expectation of the soon coming of the Lord are these:
James, Peter 1&2, Jude (preaches to the closing of the kingdom offer-as does Pet2&Rom), John 1-3, Thes 1&2, Gal, Cor 1&2, Rom, and Hebrews.
After Acts are then written 7 more, the subject being the mystery revealed as 'the church, His body', raised and seated with Christ, bearing the mark of the expectation of being manifest with Christ in the heavenly places when Christ manifests, and are:
Eph, Col, Phil, Ph'p, Tutis, Tim 1&2.
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epouraniois
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quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
quote:
Originally posted by epouraniois:
The Corinth letters were not written after Acts. Acts was written after Romans,
![[Eek!]](eek.gif) You have lost me - my Bible isn't that complicated.
I have the same Bible as you have. Look in the Corinthian letters, and every letter written during Acts (A.D.28-64), as they are written to the Jew first and also to the gentile. This changes once the middle wall of partition is broken down & the new creation called 'the church' is proclaimed.
Noteworthy is that in each Acts period epistle the O.T. is heavily quoted. Owing to the fact the secret (mystery) was 'hid in God' (Eph 3:9) 'even the mystery which hath been hid from ages (of time) and from generations (of men), but NOW is made manifest' (Col 1:26), 'the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles' (Eph.3:1) cannot quote Scripture to support the newly revealed church, which is His body.
From either side of the dividing line (Acts28.28) the church has few common qualities one with another save for the shed blood on the tree and the risen and acsended Lord. Other things which do cross that dispensational boundry are that all are in need of a Saviour, all are born into sin, all Scripture is God-Breathed. There is little else in common between the Acts kingdom churches and the mystery body revealed after Israel enters her Lo-ammi period of abayance.
Although the dates aren't recorded, the rulers and other deatils are given, and secular writings and those of Josephus give us an accurate timeline.
One example:
36 A.D. - Pilate dismissed, Caiphas deposed. PETER's MISSION throughout the land of Israel begins - Acts 9:32-10:48.
37 A.D. - Tiberius d. CALIGULA. PAUL's "Conversion". Goes to Arabia (Sinai? 40 days?). Returns to Damascus. Gal. 1:17. Paul escapes from Damascus Acts 9:25, 2Cor. 11:33 - Acts 9:1-19
Gal. 1:17.
43 A.D. - Barnabas "sent" from JERUSALEM to ANTIOCH, goes to Tarsus "to seek Saul" and brings him to Antioch- where they stay for "a whole year". as occurring in the days of Claudius. (Paul's taken up to the thrid heaven. 2Cor. 12:1-4) - Acts 11:22, 25.
http://www.angelfire.com/nv/TheOliveBranch/append181.html
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by epouraniois:
The Corinth letters were not written after Acts. Acts was written after Romans,
You have lost me - my Bible isn't that complicated.
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epouraniois
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by timspong:
quote:
Originally posted by epouraniois:
For two thousand years now, the church where Christ is the head (prison epistles) has not been preached. I have considered myself fortunate in one respect, that I do not have tons of teachings to undo and rethink, thus avoiding the intensly discomforting attributes of those questions which must surely manifest when comparing Scripture with teachings coming from denominational perspectives.
I hope for your sake that the seeds you are sowing do not cause anyone to stumble. The world is full of “self-taught” theologians with the same confidence in their theories as you.
I would be interested to know what church you attend and by what authority you teach?
I don't know how to respond to that, if you have some verses you would like to discuss, then I am all in. As far as I have read, it is not God's received understanding which causes one to stumble, but perhaps when receiving only the parts we like might just do it?
As far as being self taught, there seems to be an implication that we are given some form of instruction in the Bible that the common man cannot receive God's understanding? Is there some verse stating we need to go to an acredited shcool and receive a plack before God is able to reveal to us?
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timspong
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Member # 5240
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by epouraniois:
For two thousand years now, the church where Christ is the head (prison epistles) has not been preached. I have considered myself fortunate in one respect, that I do not have tons of teachings to undo and rethink, thus avoiding the intensly discomforting attributes of those questions which must surely manifest when comparing Scripture with teachings coming from denominational perspectives.
I hope for your sake that the seeds you are sowing do not cause anyone to stumble. The world is full of “self-taught” theologians with the same confidence in their theories as you.
I would be interested to know what church you attend and by what authority you teach?
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Yours in Christ
Timothy Michael Spong
Posts: 146 | From: Lagos, Nigeria | Registered: Nov 2005
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BORN AGAIN
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I second that emotion, bother epouraniois. While I don't understand much of your stuff and probably will never bother to try to understand it all, you have said some interesting things that I have never heard before and certainly it has been lively and I have liked some of the things you have said. And importantly, you seem to be nice person too.
God bless, ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif) BORN AGAIN
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yahsway
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Brother epouraniois,
Although I do not agree with some of the things you have posted, and have been very enlightened by other things you have posted, I just want to tell you that after reading your last post here, I truly sense you are a very humble person and you do show love and patience in your posts.
And that alone speaks volumes to me. Be Blessed and Shalom!
Posts: 1238 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Aug 2004
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epouraniois
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Wonderful Pleasemaranatha,
I understand what the words I write invoke, and how that by them many are offended. Such is often the case. I, unlike some, do not intend whatsoever to debate or come bearing judgment. My studies are certainly deeper than anything presented to date, but it is of these things which the Lord has divided and seperated which the apostle writes, all believers in Asia also rejected.
For two thousand years now, the church where Christ is the head (prison epistles) has not been preached. I have considered myself fortunate in one respect, that I do not have tons of teachings to undo and rethink, thus avoiding the intensly discomforting attributes of those questions which must surely manifest when comparing Scripture with teachings coming from denominational perspectives.
It is our duty, to our Lord and to ourselves to search and see if a thing is so.
As I read it, the Lord spoke by the vessel Paul, but did not reveal 'the church' until after all Israel had heard and rejected. Those words of Issaiah 6. 9,10 are vital. For by them the Lord shows that Israel was fulfilling the negative aspect of their national prophecy, first spoken in Mat.13.
AFter these dreadful words are meeted unto them for the third and final time at the end of Acts, the Lord again speaks through the vessel Paul, saying He is by revelation giving something never before heard or imagined. This secret in now revealed, and pertains to 'the church'.
It cannot be overstated that there is not any reference, prior to this last revelation for the hope of you gentiles (nations), of 'the church'. It simply is not in Scripture. And not revealed until the Lord gave it to Paul.
Before this, on a timeline, the kingdom was preached and looked for, and they gathered in churches, but there was no 'the church'.
Once we come to the mystery body teachings, an entirely different doctrine is set forth. It is given 'for the hope of you gentiles' and this body is called 'the church, His body'.
Israel, neither those graphed in, looked for a church. The looked for a kingdom.
The kingdom is to come to the earth. They look for earthly blessings in resurrection.
The church is to be manifest with Him in heavenly places. We look to all spiritual blessings in heavenly places, seated with Christ.
My advice. Put it on the shelf and the Lord will continue to bless you in your love for Him. Search and see. And remember the apostles prayer:
Phi 1:9
And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment;
Phi 1:10
That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offense till the day of Christ;
The words in v.10 are translated elsewhere, by 'try' and 'differ', thus we have a two-fold prayer set forth as instruction, in the Greek:
v.10
Try the things that differ, that ye may approve that which is more excellent.
This echoes the injunction to rightly divide the word of truth. And one of those truths are, that both the prayer here, and the injunction which manifests one unashamed are given only to the church, and this due to the change of order marked by Acts 28.28, and because the new man now having been created, Eph2, so making peace.
The hope of this mystery (secret) church?
Phi 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Phi 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the (out)resurrection (out from) of the dead.
This speaks of manifesting when Christ manifest, with Him in Glory, Col. 3.3,4. The apostle continues:
Phi 3:12
Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Phi 3:13
Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Phi 3:14
I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Paul is seeking to know that resurrection power at all times, and here, suprizingly, calls the gentiles 'brethren'. What an amazing change from the Acts period teachings (where no revelation is given, the 12 teaching only that which they saw and heard). Paul says here, that he must leave those things, even forgetting them, in order to continue on (the rubric of perfection-reaching the goal). The apostle is seeking the best things the Lord has to give, counting himself least of all the saints now. Again finding an echo in the above verses.
I know I have typed to the offense of many in this subject and shall not belabour it further in this thread, but will respond to questionings. The Bible is full of truth. The messages are sent to speicific peoples for specific goals from our Saviour. It is not my intention to harm anyone, but to simply post the verses so they can be searched. I know you love the Lord and seek the truth, this without question. You will search and the Lord shall guide you. If I am correct, would not it given as a blessing? Likewise, if I am incorrect, may someone bless me by showing where there is no need for right division, how the church of the Acts, which is the churh of the wilderness, has the same hope as that given by Paul the prisoner. Personally, all I seek is the truth by the knowledge of Him, undertanding this means acceptance into instruction that tears away my former life. Indeed, the Lord quickeneth us in this life. He can, and does, work miracles, live in us, guiding those who earnestly seek Him, to the ability we are able to yield.
Always with much love, even though it may not be obvious or even easily seen at the time present.
epouraniois
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Pleasemaranatha
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Dear Epouraniois,
You know ever since I was little I craved to learn how to read mainly so that I could read The Holy Bible. The teacher I have had throughout my life was God. He said it was a love letter to ME. I have put my name in the place of others in the bible because HE said I should be an ambassador for HIM to spread the gospel and evangelize the lost. That has always been the way the verses jump out and get into my soul. I am supposed to go forth and preach, pray, lift up His Holy Name even if in some views only the 12 apostles completed everything.
I am uncomfortable with how you separate the bible with your teachings. All I know is God is Love and it really is more simple than all the divided ways you have shown. The word is alive and full of instuctions for me and I think I am going to stop reading your posts. God and I will keep going forward the way He wants. It has been working just fine.
Before I started reading all the posts you and Terral wrote I felt peace. Now, I feel like the enemy is trying to steal my joy and confuse me. I won't debate the word of God with you. It is too important to be torn in pieces like an experiment.
Prayers will continue to go up for ya all ...even my daughter is fired up reading your posts and has God encouraging her to pray for you also to lighten-up.
Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God. And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him. Col. 3:15-17
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My soul waiteth for the Lord more than they that watch for the morning. Psalms 130 verse 6
Joyce
Posts: 308 | From: Missouri | Registered: Oct 2005
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Pleasemaranatha
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Dear Epouraniois,
You know ever since I was little I craved to learn how to read mainly so that I could read The Holy Bible. The teacher I have had throughout my life was God. He said it was a love letter to ME. I have put my name in the place of others in the bible because HE said I should be an ambassador for HIM to spread the gospel and evangelize the lost. That has always been the way the verses jump out and get into my soul. I am supposed to go forth and preach, pray, lift up His Holy Name even if in some views only the 12 apostles completed everything.
I am uncomfortable with how you separate the bible with your teachings. All I know is God is Love and it really is more simple than all the divided ways you have shown. The word is alive and full of instuctions for me and I think I am going to stop reading your posts. God and I will keep going forward the way He wants. It has been working just fine.
Before I started reading all the posts you and Terral wrote I felt peace. Now, I feel like the enemy is trying to steal my joy and confuse me. I won't debate the word of God with you. It is too important to be torn in pieces like an experiment.
Prayers will continue to go up for ya all ...even my daughter is fired up reading your posts and has God encouraging her to pray for you also to lighten-up.
Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God. And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him. Col. 3:15-17
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My soul waiteth for the Lord more than they that watch for the morning. Psalms 130 verse 6
Joyce
Posts: 308 | From: Missouri | Registered: Oct 2005
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epouraniois
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I do appologize, but for the necessity of these lenghty posts are founded upon the need to understand Acts, the purpose, it's unfolding that Israel would choose to fulfill the Lo-ammi prophecy, becoming 'not my people', but furthermore, 'and I will not be your God'. This will require a fuller review and self study, prayerfully, thereafter can the differences of the kingdom and the church may be so apprehended.
"He hath shed forth THIS": "THIS is that". Peter is still maintaining his theme. He is still explaining Pentecost; it is the evidence that Christ is King and that the kingdom will one day be restored. Further pro of is given by quoting from Psalm 110. David's son is David's Lord (Matt. 22:41-46). The Lord is now there at the right hand of God "from henceforth expecting" (Heb. 10: 13). The heaven must receive Him until the restoration (Acts 3:21). The first thing that Peter commanded his awakened hearers to do was to "repent". In this he was continuing the ministry of John the Baptist (Matt. 3:2) and of the Lord (Matt. 4: 17). There is an interval between the two prophecies of Joel is a consequence of Israel's non-repentance addressed shortly.
The Purpose: To show that Pentecost cannot be understood if it be taken out of its place, that any attempt to fit Pentecost into the "Church" of the Mystery destroys both the typical character of the feast, and the distinctive character of that "Church". The following is designed as guidance from the chapel of the open book, but search and see if it is so;
1. The typical place of Pentecost (Acts 2:14-8:1).
2. Pentecost Explained-"this is that" (Acts 2:14-40).
3. Millennial Foreshadowings (Acts 2:41-47).
A1 2:14-47 PENTECOST EXPLAINED
Wonders and signs in heaven and earth
David's testimony
Christ the King
All things common Possessions sold
The Lord added those that were being saved (R.V.)
B1 3:1-4:22 PENTECOST SYMBOLIZED
The miracle of healing
The gate called "Beautiful"
Moses a type of Christ
Prison for Peter
We cannot but speak
Threatened: let go
A2 4:23-5:11 PENTECOST REPEATED
Signs and wonders
David's testimony
The kings of the earth rebel
Place shaken
Filled with holy spirit
All things common
Possessions sold "part of price kept back"
Great fear on the church
B2 5:12-42 PENTECOST WITHSTOOD
Miracles of healing
Solomon's Porch
Prison for Peter
We ought to obey God rather than men
Beaten: Let go
A3 6:1-7 PENTECOST EXTENDED
The ministry of the deacons;
"Full of Holy Spirit"
B3 6:8-8:1 PENTECOST REJECTED
Moses a type of Christ
Stephen stoned
The Introduction of Saul strikes the first note in Israel's rejection.
Here we are at a disadvantage, for most of us who know anything at all about Pentecost have received that knowledge through tradition. We were sure that it was a feast of the Church; we were convinced that on the day of Pentecost the Church was brought into being; we were positive that there were gathered together on that day a multitude of both Jews and Gentiles who, by having all things in common, gave expression to the truth of the One Body and its fellowship. Yet all these fondly held views vanish in the light of actual truth, for Acts two knows nothing of a feast of the Church; it knows nothing of the unity in which there is neither Greek nor Jew; it gives no countenance to the idea that a single Gentile, other than a proselyte, listened to Peter on that momentous day:
"But Peter standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice and said . . ." (Acts 2:14).
We draw attention to the peculiar word used here for "said" (apophtheggomai), which also occurs in Acts 2:4 in the phrase, "as the Spirit gave them utterance". We are to understand by this that Peter's explanation of the meaning of Pentecost was that it was an exercise of that recently conferred power from on high.
The word apophtheggomai occurs but once more, namely in Acts 26:25, this time in the record of Paul's defence before Agrippa. It is suggestive that Peter rebuts a charge of "drunkenness" in Acts 2:14,15, and Paul rebuts a charge of having become "mad" through much learning in Acts twenty-six.
Pentecost was a season of rejoicing:
"Seven weeks shalt thou number unto thee: begin to number the seven weeks from such time as thou beginnest to put the sickle to the corn. And thou shalt keep the feast of weeks unto the Lord thy God with a tribute of a freewill offering of thine hand, which thou shalt give unto the Lord thy God, according as the Lord thy God hath blessed thee. And thou shalt rejoice before the Lord thy God, thou, and thy son, and thy daughter, and thy manservant, and thy maidservant, and the Levite that is within thy gates, and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, that are among you, in the place which the Lord thy God hath chosen to place His name there" (Deut. 16:9-11).
Corinthians keeps count of several of Israel's feasts:
PASSOVER "For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us" (1 Cor. 5:7).
"The cup of blessing" (1 Cor. 10:16).
UNLEAVENED
BREAD "Therefore let us keep the Feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth" (1 Cor. 5:8).
FIRSTFRUITS "Christ is risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Cor. 15:20).
PENTECOST "I will tarry at Ephesus until Pentecost". (1 Cor. 6:8).
The passage in the Law that best sets out the feasts of the Lord and the place of Pentecost is Leviticus twenty-three. These feasts are prophetic, and set forth in type and shadow the whole course of Israe1's history from the day that they became a nation (Ex.12:2) until the great future day of ingathering at the time of the end.
The Lord knew that Israel would not repent and be gathered the first time, and that the purpose of the ages would reach out to the trumpets of the Apocalypse and the harvest at the end of the age. Nevertheless the feast of Pentecost was an anticipation of harvest, just as firstfruits was, and the gathering of Israel to Jerusalem at this period was an anticipation of that great gathering at the time of the end.
A peculiar feature of Pentecost is that a new meal offering was commanded:
"Ye shall bring out of your habitations two wave loaves of two tenth deals: they shall be of fine flour; they shall be baken with leaven; they are the first fruits unto the Lord" (Lev. 23:17).
It had already been commanded that "no meal offering, which ye shall bring unto the Lord, shall be made with leaven; for ye shall bum no leaven, nor any honey, in any offering of the Lord made by fire" (Lev. 2:11). The two leavened loaves of Pentecost cannot therefore typify Christ: they are a firstfruits, and typify His people. The reason why two loaves were specified appears to be that the Lord knew that the kingdom wou1d be divided, and that at the restoration the ten tribes and the two tribes (commonly spoken of as Israel and Judah) wou1d come together again as one before Him. Ezekiel 37:15-28 sets this forth under the figure of the two sticks: "I will make them one nation . . . they shall be no more two" (Ezek. 37:22).
PENTECOST EXPLAINED: "THIS IS THAT" (Acts 2:14-40)
Peter, when he stood up to explain the meaning of Pentecost to the assembled mu1titude, lifted up his voice and said:
* "Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem" (Acts 2:14).
* "Ye men of Israel . . . among you . . . in the midst of you" (Acts 2:22).
* "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly" (Acts 2:36).
* "The promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call" (Acts 2:39).
"Men of Judaea", "the Jews who dwelt at Jerusalem" (Acts 2:5), "Israel", and then, together, "the whole house of Israel", are those to whom Peter addressed his words. Peter's own recorded act and word given in Acts 10:28, and the attitude of the Apostles and brethren that were in Judaea (Acts 11:18), together with the exclusiveness of Acts 11:19 are sufficient to prove that the presence of a Gentile at this feast of Israel would have been intolerable, while the attitude of the Jews as recorded in Acts 21:26-36 shows what is likely to have happened had Gentiles been present at this feast of Pentecost. The nations of the earth shall, one day, go up to Jerusalem to keep the Feast of Tabernacles as Zechariah 14:16-19 reveals, but that event awaits the time when the Lord descends and His feet once more touch the Mount of Olives.
If, as most will admit, the "Church" cannot be imported into Joel, then that alone should, if we still hold it, shake our faith in the tradition that the Church began at Pentecost.
Upon reading the book through, two verses stand out, namely Joel 1:4 and 2:25:
"That which the palmerworm hath left hath the locust eaten; and that which the locust hath left hath the cankerworm eaten; and that which the cankerworm hath left hath the caterpillar eaten".
"I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpillar, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you".
"I will restore" are words that find their echo in the question of the Apostles: "Wilt thou restore?" (Acts 1:6), and in the testimony of Peter as to "the times of restoration" (Acts 3:21 R.V.). Repentance is essential. "Rend your heart and not your garments and turn unto the Lord your God" (Joel 2:13), and the resulting blessing is not only likened to the restoration of the land from plague and famine, but to the restoring of Israel's access and acceptable worship under the figure of new wine, and drink offering (Joel 1:13; 2:14; 3:18). Prominent also is the "great and terrible day of the Lord", a prophetic period of no uncertain value, the object of much Old Testament prophecy, and certainly having no connexion with the "Church".
Joel
A a 1:7 New wine cut off
b 1:8-13 Israel's harvest spoiled
B 1:14-2:14 Israel a desolation
C 2:15-20 The gathering of Israel
D 2:21-3:1 I will restore
C 3:2 The gathering of the nations
D 3:2-8 I will plead
A b 3:9-17 Gentile harvest
a 3:18 New wine restored
B 3:19-21 Egypt and Edom a desolation.
The whole prophecy deals with the nation and the nations. It looks to the Day of the Lord, and has no room for, or reference to, a church in which there is neither Greek nor Jew.
The quotation from Joel made by Peter is divided into two parts. The first was actually fulfilled on the day of Pentecost; the second would have followed had Israel repented. They did not repent, and consequently the signs in heaven await the day of the Lord, with which the book of the Revelation is prophetically concerned. What should intervene between the two parts of Joel's prophecy it was not part of Peter's ministry to explain. He confessed later, when writing to the same dispersion, that they would find help regarding this interval in the writings of Paul (2 Pet. 3:15,16).
The relation of the two parts of Joel's prophecy, quoted by Peter, showing forth the present interval was not mentioned by Peter, for the times and the seasons which the Father had put in His own power had not been revealed to him.
The two parts are:
A I will POUR out of My Spirit
A I will SHOW wonders - as spoken of in the Apocalypse, and Isa. 13:9,10.
We, too, only know that a new dispensation fills the gap, because Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ, has made known the dispensation of the Mystery.
Pentecost anticipates the Millennium; the gifts are called "the powers of the world to come" (Heb. 6:5), and so the summary judgment of the day of the Lord is seen to be in operation during the early days of the Acts:
"He that worketh deceit shall not dwell within My house; he that telleth lies shall not tarry in My sight. Morning by morning will I destroy all the wicked of the land; that I may cut of! all wicked doers from the city of the Lord" (Psa. 101:7,8).
This of course directs our attention to lying to God when the 'at hand' kingdom is being advance. The penalty is instant judgment, the result is immediate death.
"And being let go, they went to their own company, and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said unto them. And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, Thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is: Who by the mouth of Thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage and the people imagine vain things? The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against His Christ" (Acts 4:23-26).
The language of the passage clearly shows the minds of the Apostles fully occupied with millennial expectation. Such is the setting and dispensational significance of Pentecost.
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Originally posted by HisGrace:
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Originally posted by epouraniois:
Clearly, if the gifst left Paul, and they did, then what Biblical basis is there for us today to claim the gifts never ceased, especially when Paul said they would?
Can you give me a scripture, which isn't generic about bondage, other gods and lusts of the flesh, where it specifically says that the gift of the tongues has been abolished? 1 Cor. 14 was written well after Acts.
Are you also saying that other gifts were abolished as well? We all have different gifts of the Spirit, be it teaching, preaching, youth ministry, street ministry and on and on.
* The opening of Christ's ministry was accompanied by a great output of miraculous healing:
"All manner of sickness (nosos, a disease of some standing) and all manner of disease (malakia, a weakness, softness) . . . all sick people (kakos, ill, related to kakos meaning evil) . . . torments (basanos), those possessed with devils (daimonizomai) and those that were lunatic (seleniazomai, from selene, the moon), and those that had the palsy (paralatikos), and He healed them" (Matt. 4:23,24).
Here is a summary of the scope and extent of the Saviour's healing ministry; we see that the whole land was moved from Galilee, Decapolis, Jerusalem, Judaea and beyond Jordan, and every variety of sickness is represented.
Acts is a continuance of the self same kingdom ministry. The apostles did not preach the church. They preached the kingdom. AFter Acts, the church comes into view, unforseen and unawares, it had been a secret until God revealed it, it was 'hid in God'. God is not the one hiding it today.
The Corinth letters were not written after Acts. It was written in alternation, to the Jew first, then to the gentile. for ex., chpts just prior to ch12 is to the Jews, then the apostle turns attention to admonish the gentiles about their division causing activities. Acts was written after Romans, which is the last epistle written during the Pentacostal kingdom hope was preached. It was written in defense of the mystery body ministry because all in Asia had turned away upon the deliverance of this new dispensation, or administration if you like.
Here is a link to reveiw some Acts period timelines that may be helpful:
http://www.angelfire.com/nv/TheOliveBranch/append180.html
While the Bible does not state that the Acts period gifts did not continue into the new creation, His Body The Church, it should not have to, as it is evidenced that Paul does state in ch13 of 1Cor that they would perish. He was speaking to Israel's ensuing blindness, which was judiciously sealed after all Israel had heard and rejected the kingdom.
Afterwards, upon the revelation of the church, not the kingdom, the church, we do find that Paul, both no longer lists some of the previous administrations gifts with those of the church, AND, is unable to preform that which had been wrought in him by the Lord when Israel's kingdom hope and calling was in view:
In the last ch. of Acts, we find the apostle both in chains for the hope of Israel, but also bearing the full embodiment of the kingdom gifts. Belief and faith was not required:
Act 28:3 And when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks, and laid them on the fire, there came a viper out of the heat, and fastened on his hand.
Act 28:5 And he shook off the beast into the fire, and felt no harm.
Act 28:6 Howbeit they looked when he should have swollen, or fallen down dead suddenly
Act 28:8 And it came to pass, that the father of Publius lay sick of a fever and of a bloody flux: to whom Paul entered in, and prayed, and laid his hands on him, and healed him.
Act 28:9 So when this was done, others also, which had diseases in the island, came, and were healed
Act 28:16 And when we came to Rome, the centurion delivered the prisoners to the captain of the guard: but Paul was suffered to dwell by himself with a soldier that kept him.
Act 28:17 And it came to pass, that after three days Paul called the chief of the Jews together...
Act 28:20 For this cause therefore have I called for you, to see you, and to speak with you: because that for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.
Act 28:25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Isaiah the prophet unto our fathers,
Act 28:26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
Act 28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
And what did Paul do to help Timothy when Timothy took deathly ill
1Ti 5:23
Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.
The Ethiopic version renders it, "for the pain of the liver", and "for thy perpetual disease".
Paul so loved, there can be no doubt that if the previous dispensations ministry were present, Timothy's liver would have needed no healing, for they could drink poison, bad water and so forth without being affected (Mark16. 18), but the miraculous signs and wonders were no longer in affect, and so the apostle can be no longer expected to manifest the kingdom gifts , for the kingdom is no longer in view at this point, at the suspension of it, the things contained therein, all perished as is written in ch13, but there is another example:
Paul, though a prisoner, could have sent a handkerchief or an apron (Acts 19:12) or any other portion of his clothing, for these had been effective in dealing with disease and evil spirits during the kingdom ministry. Yet apparently he could do nothing afterwards (Phil. 2:25-30).
Such cases of "healing" today by Pentecostals, the healed should be sent to the local doctor for a certificate even as Christ sent the leper to the priest. My friends sister and her husband worked for fifteen years among the lepers of India. Never, throughout that period did a "Pentecostalist" venture to demonstrate the reality of his claim to share in the commission of Matthew ten as was during the Acts, and so far to knowledge, no healing campaign has ever been organized by Pentecostalists among lepers. We ask "why?" but the answer is evident. Not only so, but the raising of the dead is also included in these gifts, but there is no accredited instance where such a power has been possessed or exercised. The gift of healing accompanied the gospel of the kingdom as did the foreknown tongues, and when the people of the kingdom, namely Israel, were set aside, the gifts went with them.
It was God's program, purpose and intent in the Acts period that every Israelite upon the earth should hear the salvationbringing word of God and have a clear-cut opportunity to receive or reject the man Jesus as Israel's long-promised Messiah and as a personal Savior. This was the pledge of God, and it was in writing: "But as it is written, To whom He was not spoken of, they shall see: and they that have not heard shall understand" (Rom. 15:21). God made good on this pledge. "And they went forth and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them" (Mark 16:20). "But I say, have they (Israel) not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world" (Rom. 10:18).
DEFINITION OF TONGUES
The dictionary lists the definitions of the word "tongue". Six of the definitions relate to language and speech. The fifth definition we choose to quote because we will notice that it fits in with the Bible usage of the word. "A language: the whole sum of words used by a particular nation" (Webster's 1828). Here we notice that it has reference to a language. The plural would have to do with languages.
A good procedure to follow in Bible study is to follow the principle of "the law of first mention." That is to check the first mention of a word in the Bible, for there, generally, the meaning of the word is set. The word generally carries that meaning throughout the rest of the Bible. Turning to Genesis 10 we note the first mention of the word "tongue."
"By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; everyone after his tongue (i.e. language), after their family, in their nations" (v. 5).
In the twentieth verse we notice the first mention of the word "tongues".
"These are the sons of Ham, after their families, after their tongues, in their countries, and in their nations."
The first mention seems to set the use of the words, tongue and tongues, as having reference to specific languages or dialects.
In the ancient world a knowledge of several languages was a most valuable commodity. It was then, even as today, evidence of learning and knowledge of which one could be justly proud. Of their knowledge of languages some in Corinth were abnormally proud. Remember too, how Corinth was a great sea port, a meeting place for the partying kind, in fact, Corinthian has for one of it's meanings, a licentious (sp?) man about town.
Some in Corinth were using foreign languages when there was no reason for it. They were using these to display knowledge and make a show of wisdom. This is what Paul is rebuking. And no dought Satan had been following the ministry injecting other things into it as well.
Of 1 Corinthians 14, there is nothing in this chapter to support the rattling off of unintelligible sounds, and it should not be twisted to do so. The careful Bible student cannot accept this human, pumped-up uttering of sounds as being a Biblical experience.
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HisGrace
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Originally posted by epouraniois:
Clearly, if the gifst left Paul, and they did, then what Biblical basis is there for us today to claim the gifts never ceased, especially when Paul said they would?
Can you give me a scripture, which isn't generic about bondage, other gods and lusts of the flesh, where it specifically says that the gift of the tongues has been abolished? 1 Cor. 14 was written well after Acts.
Are you also saying that other gifts were abolished as well? We all have different gifts of the Spirit, be it teaching, preaching, youth ministry, street ministry and on and on.
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epouraniois
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HisGrace
He explains that unbelievers may come into your meeting and think you are crazy, but as they listen, perhaps they will be convicted of sin.
In the instructional portion given to the mystery body, the apostle calls them to remember their divisions, and how as gentiles, even though they could hear the preaching after it was first preached to the Jews, they still had no part of enjoinment - that at that time they were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world.
WEll, that's about the worst place to be, so why emulate them in that?
Now remember to whom the apostle is writing, these are the same people who beleived, they were believers that Paul had previously been preaching to, and they are called to remember so that they could acknolwedge this new calling to be participate in this new creation, being one new man:
Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to create in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Eph 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
And what is the pupose of God's reconciliation? To create one new man, AND GIVE ALL ACCESS:
Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Not only did the gentiles not have access, but the Jews also did not have access, they needed revelation by an apostle. It is not so today. WE have access in this newly created body. It is called, The Church. It is not one of the churches, and the word church is never found in plural form in the epistles the prisoner of the Lord wrote, because this church is one of unity. Its home is in the heavenlies. It's members are being worked into this truth of unity of the Spirit here on earth.
What Paul clearly said was that those gifts were for the unbelievers, and not for believers, that if an umbeliever comes and sees strangeness (my words) and the sound is uncertain, they will say you are mad. And what do we have today, just the opposite. Only the believers are practicing to accomodate a spirit for this tongue of an uncertain sound, and they have no understanding of what they are saying, they are not having the 'best gifts'. Paul told them, "be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men". But they couldn't hear it this message. It is the same today.
Well, I am not an unbeliever (in Christ the Lord Jesus), but it was an uncertain sound to me, and they sounded as if they were mad to me. They made no sense, and when I asked them where the interpreter was they asked me to leave. They are in denial.
But yes, Paul did speak to them about spiritual things, gifts being one of those spiritual things, however Paul made it clear they were to speak with their understanding, meaning they would understand. Now if there was not an interpretor, then only that Jew would understand, being the gift was to speak to Jews in the native tongue (language), then they should get an interpreter (one who could speak Hebrew) so that everybody could be edified by the glorious message the the Holy Spirit was presenting that nonbelieving Jew, that not only he may find edification, but that all present would also be edified in the magnifying of the Lord.
Babling incoheritantly in a non language is not the sign of God. In order to magnify God, the message must be understood. Not only was I unable to understand any of their practiced and perfected babling, but they couldn't either. I was asked to leave when presenting them with Biblical truth.
Denial denies it's own existance. Some even prefer to have their 'other' spirits be with them. This is often the case, nevertheless, everyone is not healed, everyone does not understand in their mother tongue, &c, &c, but when the Lord was working with them during the time of the kingdom offer, when it was to the Jew first, and also to the gentile, ALL believers manifest one of the gifts of the Spirit that the Hebrew tribes might believe. Those miracles and signs and gifts did not follow the apostle into the present mystery body.
The fact that both Christ and Paul told them they could not bear hearing more truth is very telling. It is the same today. People want what belongs to others, not realizing they are foresaking the very promise given especially to them. They just cannot hear it. It doesn't matter if it is written, they cling to that which is written to another group or calling and it's people.
The only thing we can do is to show the verses, and how the why things have been advancing and advanced by God's outworking.
Can anyone even show me in Scripture where when God creates a new thing, the old things are carried over into the new? Anyone? Any verses showing the Pentacostal gifts were carried over? Anyone?
Again, anyone is able to believe whatever they may wish, even denying God sent an apostle with a new message to a new church body, but if denying the new and claim what was before is the destination, it is between God and man. My walk is not one of shadows and types, but of the true where all shadows and types and those things which they were admonished to me no more children are set aside where only Chirst is the head, and where Israel's earthly things, signs, wonders, and gifts finds no place of mention. They simply are not on the new list given us in Eph4.
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HisGrace
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Originally posted by Pleasemaranatha:
I disagree. The gifts from God have never stopped. It is still here. Nothing can convince me that the gifts from the Holy Spirit is not happening today. There is still WISDOM, KNOWLEDGE,FAITH, HEALING, MIRACULOUS POWERS, PROPHECY, THE GIFT OF DISTINGUISHING OF SPIRITS, SPEAKING IN DIFFERENT TONGUES AND INTERPETATIONS OF TONGUES. All of these are from God to us then and now. God gives His gifts to whomever He wants.
Amen!!
If we read 1 Cor. 14 we see that Paul is telling them that it is ok to speak in tongues, but the main point of worship is to edify Jesus in order that everyone understands the message. He points out that often prophesy can be more beneficial.
He explains that unbelievers may come into your meeting and think you are crazy, but as they listen, perhaps they will be convicted of sin.
1 Cor. 24,25 But if all of you are prophesying, and unbelievers or people who don't understand these things come into your meeting, they will be convicted of sin, and they will be condemned by what you say.
As they listen, their secret thoughts will be laid bare, and they will fall down on their knees and worship God, declaring, "God is really here among you."
Paul summarizes this chapter with -
Verses, 39,40. So, dear brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and don't forbid speaking in tongues. But be sure that everything is done properly and in order.
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epouraniois
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Originally posted by Thunderz7:
More Dispensation propaganda ---
GOD once had power;
one day HE will have power again;
but right now HE has no power.
>Is the god of dispensation in a coma?
T7
Who said God has no power? Of course, if God wants to heal someone, or work any type of miracle, He shall so do, but during the Acts, ALL of these things were present. Not once was anybody asked if they believed first. The gifts were purposed, they didn't come because people sought them, they manifest because the Holy Spirit was using people to get the kingdom message out tot he Jews, that they might receive of their kingdom.
There was only one purpose set forth for that entire 35 year period.
The fact of the matter is, is that the church of the one body did not exist during that time. Christ was not presented to the church, and was not presented to the church as the head. Christ was presented as the coming king with His kingdom, but not once did the twelve preach the church. Paul did not preach the church until after Israel was set aside and the kingdom along with her.
All of those things of the former teachings then became highly sought after because they did not accept that Christ is head and the church is His body. They could not look that up in the OT, therefore they did not believe it.
It is the same today. All the divisions, all the seperations and the desires of men have no place in the church where Christ is head, as they are carnal desires of the former kingdom economy. When God makes a new creation, such as the church body, the former things are past away. They do not carry over, for if they did it would not be a new creation.
All of the things of the flesh in Christianity, with all their rituals, with all thier service, all these things really come down to man practicing religeon, where actually that lead us to think of what can God do for us, not what we do for Him. When we realize what God has done for us, and really and truly believe, all traditions and things of the flesh fade away as we open up our lives so God can do through us. The old flesh has nothing to do with that, but this is the secret of Christianity.
When Peter stood up, or Paul for that matter, God was using their mouths, walking with their feet. They had yeilded to God, and God did not present an uncertain unrecognizable sound, God is not the author of confusion. Everyone listened and heard in their very own dialect.
Much of Christianity is all wrapped up in what they can do, they have all the various ordinances, the sects, the divisions which Paul said were carnal and likened to spiritual babihood. Even a pray, and this may shock some of you, but who today would even think of holding a religeous service without opening with a prayer? Well our Lord didn't do that. He was always prayed up and ready to speak anywhere at any time. He prayed in secret and prayed continually, He didn't have to stop and pray to regain His connection with the Father and open up with a pray. There are so many traditions that have crept into the service of today, and most all of them are just not Biblical, or have been altered in some way to persuade the individuals to come to their building and give your money to their form of worship.
Essentially, when we get down to the bottom of it, the member of the one body finds his ALL IN CHIRST, and he cannot stand for the bondage of the things of flesh and tradition of any kind except for the Holy kind of Peace and Love that we find in Eph4 and Col3. Then the apostle begins to speak of the vain deceitfulness and philosophy that seeks to hold them apart from Christ as head in Col2. 18, then he concludes to speak about the decrees, but not this time to warn against the decrees of the law, but the decress of the world.
And so Paul takes care of that too, in Col2. 21-22, . What we notice in that is the decrees and doctrine are placed upon the same level as the decrees of man when practiced undipensationally. Paul had this difficulty with the Galatians, remember that at that time the Jew was first, and Paul was preaching outside of Judea and Jerusalem, and everywhere he went, at nearly all the synagogues there were gentiles standing outside the congregation to listen to the service, adn as was usually the case, the Jews would reject the message and the gentiles would asd Paul if he would preach the same message to them. And they were grafted in, as Romans explains, as a wild olive branch into the true olive tree. Adn this was the gospel of the grace of God, the good news to them was they could have the resurrection hope and blessings of Israel without having to come under the burden of the law. So in Gal 4. 8-11 he says this to those folks who did believe and were graphed in:
Gal 4:8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
Gal 4:10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
Gal 4:11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labor in vain.
Paul is telling them here that if they turned back to the law which was coming to a close that they wouldn't be any better off than they were when they were practicing the weak and beggarly elements of heathen idolatry. That is pretty plain talking, and we would do well to consider it today.
The fact that churches today are falling under the same ploys of taking that which belong to another people of another time should be of no suprize to anyone. Humanity has not changed. We are no better than they were then. Satan is still up to his same old tricks. The only change that matters is that we be IN HIM. That is the ony place where real change takes place. All other forms and all other services are of the desire from the flesh and seperate us from being IN HIM.
Now we know just one baptism and one body. And we have a reconcilliation today which too mature and too heavenly to pertain to anything to the flesh. And HERE grace reigns, enmity is abolished, and Christ Himself our PEACE. Eph2. 15.
Now if anyone wants to practice those things of another people or another dispensation, it is nothing to us, or to myself, but all those things which are desires really come from the will of the flesh and cannot coexist with Christ as the head, for the things of the flesh is enmity with God. They are not the things of unity. And in the mystery body there can be only unity and equality, which is why those things of division had to be replaced by this newly created body.
And it just goes to show how Satan works. Today people think the church is called to be one new man, the bride. Well, that just is calling God nonsensical, and is against reason and logic.
If we are going to be one new man, then there has to be a change. Today, the world has gotten into the church and you can't tell where this new creation is, where this new man is, because they are trying to practic that which did not carry over.
In order to put into the practice of this new man then we must be conformable to the new doctrine.
Paul, speaking of how the practice is set forth in this new body:
Eph 4:21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
Eph 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
Eph 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Seeking the gifts of that kingdom dispensation denies the reality of the mystery where Christ is head, and this head speaks to unity and this unity is not on this earth, for even Christ has said, " My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence". And this is what we find in Ephesians, that our fight is not with flesh and blood, but with powers, and principalites in high places.
And these spirits people today are calling into their bodies, do they really check to see if it is the Spirit of the true and living God, do they test the spirit to see why it is babling, why these spirits desire to speak to those who already believe, when it is clearly written that those gifts were for the unbelievers not for the believers, and they were to both speak and pray with understanding. Well, I went to one of these services to see what you all might be talking about. I can honestly say that that was a very unpleasant experience. Total kaos, unintelligible gibber-gabber. It is clear, that during the Acts, each hearer heard clearly that which was spoken in their own dialect.
Do you thing Satan would attempt to use those gifts to deceive them there, and use the pride of man to lie and say to the other they too had the gift when they in fact did not? Of course he would. But we find no such commission today, but God has declared He shall again take up His work with that nation Israel when they are ready to awake out of their spiritual blindness, and even so, only 144,000 will receive the truth, all else will believe lies.
Clearly, if the gifst left Paul, and they did, then what Biblical basis is there for us today to claim the gifts never ceased, especially when Paul said they would?
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Pleasemaranatha
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I must say my heart hurt and I felt pain reading the responses because I felt some grieved the Holy Spirit.
Then I prayed and God led me to look up the word testimony in this search area of christian BBS. More than 152 pages of testimonies. Praise God. He gave me back joy where I had sadness. Thanks to everyone that ever wrote their testimony from their hearts. The simple and true experiences written down really glorifies God for all He has done. Thanks be to God for making me feel happy again.
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My soul waiteth for the Lord more than they that watch for the morning. Psalms 130 verse 6
Joyce
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Bloodbought
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The first miracle of speaking in tongues began at Babel.
Gen 11:4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.
5 And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.
6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
8 So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.
9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.
Before this, everyone had only one language, but because they pledged themselves to build a tower that they thought would eventually reach heaven, God found it necessary to perform a miracle and cause them to speak in different tongues so they would not understand each other. This speaking in tongue was called a confounding of their language. They did not know what each other was saying and therefore their building project stopped because of lack of understanding.
The second miracle of speaking in tongues took place at Pentecost, where people with one language were able to speak many.
Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
Notice the difference between the miracle at Babel and the miracle at Pentecost. At Babel the people were confused and their building project stopped because of lack of understanding, but at Pentecost when they all came together they were confused by a miracle that caused every man to hear them speak in his own language. The purpose of the miracle at Babel was the opposite of the purpose of the miracle at Pentecost. The purpose of the miracle at Babel was to stop their building project, but the purpose of the miracle at Pentecost was to commence a building project, not like the building of the tower of Babel, but the building of the church of Christ where everyone can hear the gospel in their own language.
How does all this fit in with the modern day speaking in tongues? Personally I believe the enemy has set up a counterfeit of the Pentecost miracle, where someone speaks in a supposed language and no one understands what it is they are saying and are confused. The purpose of this confusion is to stop the building of the Church of Christ.
God performed a miracle to stop the people building a tower.
God performed a miracle to commence the building of the Church of Christ and all could hear and understand the gospel.
Satan is performing a counterfeit miracle to hinder the building of the Church of Christ, but it will not succeed.
Jesus said.
I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it Mat 16:18.
Posts: 822 | From: Ireland | Registered: Feb 2005
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Thunderz7
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Member # 31
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posted
More Dispensation propaganda ---
GOD once had power;
one day HE will have power again;
but right now HE has no power.
>Is the god of dispensation in a coma?
Though some of what is going on is of satan,
and much is of emotion,
and much error is taught,
and many limit the varied aspects of tongues to their own narrow interpretation,
GOD is alive, well, and in power,
HE has not taken away gifts given to men,
HE and HIS gifts are at work in the world and in the Body of Christ TODAY!
T7
Posts: 1113 | From: Northeast Alabama | Registered: Jun 2002
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epouraniois
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The gifts during the Pentacolstal period came with a specific commission in that Mark16, and that commission was completed, All Israel had heard (Rom 10:18) Israel was first warned of the prophetic blindness which would judiciously ensue if they failed to reTurn by the Lord Jesus Christ in Mathew 13. This found concluded at the end of Acts, Romans being the last of the Pentacostal period epistles.
At the very end of the kingdom offering 'being at hand', and 'for the hope of Israel', The apostle is healing abundantly, the whole island, everyone, & unfazed by the viper bite, yet, upone Israel being announced fulfillment of the Lo-ammi prophecy, enters into her blindness, and Paul is thereafter unable to heal anyone, his friend having fatal health diseases. The dispensational boundry had been crossed. Leaving that which was behind, the apostle presses to that which is before, to the high calling of God.The Lord Christ Jesus revealed Christ is the Head of His body which is the church. This had been an unkown secret in the plan of the ages. This was never before revealed church minisitry. Unsearchable, but the Greek reads untrackable, meaning there is no track of it in the O.T., it was a secret hid in God.
In the former ministry the members were not equals. There were divisions. They had different roles. In the mystery body all members are absolutely equal, joint heirs, ,joint body, joint partakers is a legal view, and cannot be translated directly into the English, Eph3.6, but is meaning all members are equal partakers. The only role now is to know Him that we may guard the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace (irene/love).
In this new ministry too, given us a list of gifts. In this list are all the best gifts, as named by the same apostle in Corinthians:
Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
If we pay attention to the purpose of the Pentacostal gifts, acknowledging they were supernatural and purposed that Israel might repent and receive the kingdom, we can also then recall that supernatural healings and so forth had always followed Israel. This is how they were to know the offer was for real.
The Lord was working with them, for the hope of Israel. The gentile could not even partake of the kingdom, they stood outside, and Paul they would ask Paul to tell it to them after he had preached to Israel. They stood outside the Tabernacle, outside all but the outer courts, way beyond the womans court, out past the middle wall of partition.
We should also note too, that if God has given any church Israel's kingdom gifts, wouldn't mean that God has begun working with Israel again now? But lets say some church is raising the dead, healing everyone without exception, speaking Hebrew to the Jews - each hearing God speak to them in their very own dialect from which they were born, being striken dead for lying in the congragation, drinking any poison and not being harmed, bitten by poisonous vipers without harm...
If there are people who can do this, I would like to see them down at the hospitals curing everyone, healing the lepers overseas, and above all, converting the Jews that they might receive the kindom.
1Co 14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
1Co 14:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.
1Co 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
1Co 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
In both the kingdom and the church dispensations, prophesying (preaching) is still the best gift.
Remember too, tongues were for the Jews, that the speaking in their mother tongue by strangers were a sign for them from God, and the message was clearly understood, and clearly Scripture. The stated purpose was that they might believe and receive of the times of refreshing, Acts2, 3. Peter said, 'this is that' spoken by Joel the prophet. Joel was not speaking to gentiles. That gentiles were used from A.D. 46-62 for the purpose to provoke Israel to jealousy however, did not prompt her to bear fruit and so receive the kingdom.
The fruit was belief. Had they believed they would have repented. Out of many many thousands, probably a couple of million, the Jews were going through the ritual traditions of the Passover, not realizing it was a shadow of what was going on just outside the city where their Lord and King Priest Savior, God the Son had died almost totally alone for their sin.
The kingdom had been reoffered. The commission was fulfilled. The kingdom is in abayance.
This is for now:
Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ.
In this fellowship none of the 5 senses are used to worship God, rather our feet walk by Him, 'in Him' in the prison epistles. It's truth for today.
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Pleasemaranatha
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I disagree. The gifts from God have never stopped. It is still here. Nothing can convince me that the gifts from the Holy Spirit is not happening today. There is still WISDOM, KNOWLEDGE,FAITH, HEALING, MIRACULOUS POWERS, PROPHECY, THE GIFT OF DISTINGUISHING OF SPIRITS, SPEAKING IN DIFFERENT TONGUES AND INTERPETATIONS OF TONGUES. All of these are from God to us then and now. God gives His gifts to whomever He wants.
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My soul waiteth for the Lord more than they that watch for the morning. Psalms 130 verse 6
Joyce
Posts: 308 | From: Missouri | Registered: Oct 2005
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epouraniois
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What language was used to convince Paul who was speaking?
Hebrew was the language of the Hebrews, that and Aramaic, also called Chaldean:
Act 26:14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
Act 21:40 And when he had given him license, Paul stood on the stairs, and beckoned with the hand unto the people. And when there was made a great silence, he spake unto them in the Hebrew tongue, saying,
Act 22:1 Men, brethren, and fathers, hear ye my defense which I make now unto you.
Act 22:2 (And when they heard that he spake in the Hebrew tongue to them, they kept the more silence: and he saith,)
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
Jews listened and acknowledged the Hebrew tongue as being the tongue of the Lord:
Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
Isa 28:12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
1Co 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
Act 13:41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.
The first thing, imo, is to be able to acknowledge the purpose for the Acts administration, being found in the apostles request for an answer as to Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? Act 1:6.
To restore the kingdom to Israel. There is only one kingdom Israel was ever told to expect to inherit. This kingdom must therefore be the same kingdom they had been instructed in for centuries.
Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Mar 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
Mar 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
Did you catch that? They went forth and fulfilled that commission. In that commission we find listed several types of specific miracles and signs. The first evidence is that all men scattered from the attending Jews at the regular anual feast of Penecost heard the 12 speaking in their very own dialect.
Act 2:6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
language
G1258
διάλεκτος
dialektos
dee-al'-ek-tos
From G1256; a (mode of) discourse, that is, “dialect”: - language, tongue.
The second thing, imo, to acknowledge is that all this was prophecized to happen, and Paul is warning them they are fulfilling the negetive side of prophecy, repent and believe &c &c.
Ending in Romans 10 we find the Mark16 commissin to go into all the world was fulfilled, all Israel had heard. So the commission was to go into all the world where there were Jews and preach repent. The same thing our Lord first preached to them in Mat4 is it, maybe 5, anyway, right up throught the Acts, in every epistle written during that time, these signs followed, the Lord working with them, for the hope of Israel.
Even in the last chapter of Acts, Paul is bit by a deadly and extremely poisonous viper, the witness' saying the apostle must be a god. Then he healed all that were ill in that place. So the prophetic speaking in tongues by a people without God in the flesh, gentiles, and everything else continued right on like that, with miracles and wonders and signs and healings until Israel is set amidst the nations.
After that is written 7 more epistles, with a list of gifts, only this one lacks the signs and wonders and miracles of the previous dispensation.
In this new one, called the dispensation of the grace of God, and the dispensation of the Mystery, Paul is unable to heal even his closest beloved companions in Christ. There is no Biblical evidence to disblelieve that the HS spake the truth throught the apostle when saying:
1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
That word 'perfect' is just the word 'completeness'. Well, Paul writes, in the prison epistles *after Acts*, that the revealtion of the mystery completes the word of God to the gentiles.
If one would read all three of the chapters on tongues without preconceptions, it may become apparent that Paul is admonishing them via correction. He tells them speaking in languages is by God, not them, there are rules, and that it is the least of anything desirable, that they need to 'grow up', need to seek the best gifts, which is prophecying. And that simply means to preach the word,the written word. The only way to magnify God is to preach the written word. The only reason anyone ever spoke in tongues was to glorify God. This they did by speaking to the Jews, not the gentiles, they spoke to the Jews in their own dialect, so the Jews would know it was God's outworking calling them to repent and turn.
It is reasonable to believe Paul, that the purpose existed for the commission in Mark16, began in Acts2, and ended in Acts 28. With the new commission, bringing a fuller revelation to a new company created to complete the word of God, and with Israel being the chosen channel of outworking no longer in view, that Paul could not heal anymore because the kingdom gifts of miracles, signs and wonders ceased right along with that kingdom hope Israel rejected.
In summary, the gifts, all of them, were to persuade the Jews that Satan had not won, that the Kingdom was a true and viable expectation, for the Lord had not foresaken His chosen earthly people Israel. All that is now in abayance, and the revealation of a church with a heavenly sphere of blessing is now in view. Tongues is no longer in view, as it was part of the kingdom offer economy of the apostolic period during the Acts, it's purpose un necessary now, we read where Jesus The Christ speaks to usward:
Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Joh 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
Joh 20:30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
Joh 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
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yahsway
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I believe the scriptures say that "they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak other tongues AS THE SPIRIT GAVE THEM UTTERANCE".
Which to me means its as the Spirit gives the Utterance, not some preacher telling everyone to start to speak in tongues.
I agree with Walt.
Posts: 1238 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Aug 2004
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HisGrace
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posted
I Cor. 14:5 I wish you all had the gift of speaking in tongues, but even more I wish you were all able to prophesy. For prophecy is a greater and more useful gift than speaking in tongues, unless someone interprets what you are saying so that the whole church can get some good out of it.
Any gift from God can be turned around and used by the devil. The gift of prophecy can be turned around and utilized by the psychics. The gift of public speaking has been used by the great dictators of the world. The gift of music can been used for the devil's gain.
I have never belonged to a church which practised speaking in tongues and it doesn't really interest me. I once went to a Pentecostal church for a baby christening, and many spontaneously burst into quietly speaking in tongues. Nobody announced "Let's do it." If that is their practise, so be it. I have no problem with it.
I have never seen Benny Hinn speaking in tongues, or any of the other 'WOF'ers", although many of them seem to believe in it.
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wparr
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Member # 891
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Speaking In Tongues
Is it a gift from God?
or
Is it a counterfit of the enemy?
BOTH
The enemy tries to corrupt/pollute and counterfit that which is Of God.
What is being done in most Churches that you walk into and hear people speaking-in-tounges is a counterfit or abuse of the gift because it does NOT line up with Scripture.
1 Corinthians 14:22-23
(22) So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophecy is for a sign, not to unbelievers but to those who believe.
(23) Therefore if the whole church assembles together and all speak in tongues, and ungifted men or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad?
1 Corinthians 14:27-28
(27) If anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be by two or at the most three, and each in turn, and one must interpret;
(28) but if there is no interpreter, he must keep silent in the church; and let him speak to himself and to God.
It MUST MUST MUST line up with these instruction from God - or it is NOT from Him - but of the enemy.
Posts: 1203 | From: Eagle Nest, NM | Registered: Jan 2003
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BORN AGAIN
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"tongues-speaking", is it from the LORD or a counterfeit from Lucifer-Satan?
By "tongues-speaking" I mean this. I heard a pastor say one time: "Okay, church, everyone speak to the Lord now in your "prayer language" or "in your heavenly language" (both euphemisms for "tongues-speaking") and they all started "speaking in tongues", meaning in a language which they had acquired somewhere.
The majority of the "tongues-speakers" however got their language by gradually adding syllables to their first halting syllables, until they had a "series" of syllables strung together which, together, sounded like a language.
I tend to think that "tongues-speaking" is either from Lucifer-Satan, and/or it is concocted by our own brains, when someone told us that we "should hvae the evidence of speaking in tongues, otherwise we are not saved."
So what do you think, is that "tongues-speaking" from the LORD or from Lucifer-Satan or from the Self?
Does anyone here speak in "tongues" on a regular basis?
If anyone does speak "tongues" here, I know and understand that you are free to do what you want to do. God bless.
In another thread, I mentioned by Bible class at work, where a woman who wanted to quit her job to become an evangelist began to speak in tongues and then it turned weird and she began to hiss and growl and was scaring us instead of making us feel safe.
And someone else mentioned Benny Hinn hissing and growling, and I admit, I have heard Benny Hinn a couple of times sounding a little "odd", dare I say weird? I think he is a tongues-speaker, as I think most people on TBN are also, but I'm not sure if Benny H. speaks in tongues. I think he does, though.
So anyway, what is your opinion about tongues-speaking?
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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