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Topic: Testing The Spirits
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Caretaker
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Member # 36
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posted
God bless you, and thank you Deb for hi-lighting John's first illustration. I quote his second for the same purpose, and we can have the two together:
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Wetshoes:
Here is one that is a little different. Actually this one bothers me more than the first!
Back in the 70’s I was spending some time in prayer. I had a sense that the Lord was telling me to be careful because the enemy had a plan for me! Nothing more to the point was shared just to be sensitive. I think that I had actually forgotten about this conversation by the time Sunday came around. A friend who owned a Christian book store called me and said there was a family looking for a church in our area so I gave them a call and arranged to meet them on Sunday at church.
When Sunday came around, I found a woman, her daughter and grandson outside the church waiting for me! We had some time and we engaged in a rather in-depth conversation. The family had recently come out of the Satanist church and were now soldiers in the Christian army! They had a deliverance ministry to help others escape the bonds of Satanism. This was really intriguing to me! I had never seen a true deliverance and though about how effective one would be to have escaped.
The mother did not state her age, but the daughter was not 20 years old. The boy she introduced to me as 9. She could see that the math did not seem to add up and she offered to me that her grandson had been a product of her daughter’s involvement in ritual! She must have been 10 or 11 at most when she conceived the woman’s grand child. How glad they must have been to have escaped all this and I thought it was really noble for them to be so open.
Church opened up and true to their word they each immediately sought a position to help. The Grandmother offered herself to teach the women, the daughter moved to help in the nursery and even the grandson volunteered to work with the toddlers. We talked a little after church and left with the intent of meeting again before church that evening. We shared quite a little. After church we meet outside and I asked them if I could be included in being there during one of their deliverances! The woman looked at me and told me that she believed that I had a ministry in this area. That they would not only include me in deliverance but in their ministry! She told me that there are not many who are called to this and that I should consider myself very special for the Lord to seek to use me this way! My spiritual pride reeled! Finally my dedication had earned me a place of real task in the kingdom of God! I would actually be on the front line and battle satan and his demons directly!
Then as the boy was getting into their van, he said something to his grandmother. I cannot even remember what it was but I was stricken with idea that this was not the way a child talks to a matriarch; it was more the way an enlisted might speak to an officer! The woman looked at him and scowled. The boy immediately looked at me and hung his head. All this took place in 2 or 3 seconds. The hair on my arms stood up. The woman turned from the boy and looked at me without words. Several seconds passed and she sank. “You know don’t you?” was all she said. “I do” I answered and they got into their van and drove away, never returning to the church. I never saw them again.
What ever plan the enemy had for me I will never know. I often wonder what I would have gotten into if I had followed them. Why had they gone to such great length to single me out of all the others at that church? Did they come there for me or did I just present myself vulnerable? I probably will never know the answer to these questions but I shudder even today to think how close my pride came to causing me to fall victim.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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SoftTouch
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Wow Brother Drew! I had forgotten about this thread. This post by our Brother John is UnNerving!!! Obviously, Satan is getting MUCH Bolder in his attempts to draw away those called by God. I had to 'quote' this so others don't have to scroll back to read it! Thanks for brining this thread back up Linda and Drew!!!
quote:
Originally posted by Wetshoes:
Debbie,
You hit on a really good question! I think that it may be important to consider that there are many levels of adversity that we run into. They range from simple error to active evil!
There is teaching that is simply wrong, incomplete or correct in content but misdirected in intent! Wrong teaching can be simply a misinterpretation of a particular passage or passages. A popular illustration is a common teaching on agape love pitted against phileo. Agape is touted as God’s love phileo as something carnal but the Lord uses the term in many places, one in particular is where He addresses Peter at the end of John where He asks “Peter – do you ‘phileo’ me? … feed my sheep! Is there harm from the misinterpretation? Not really but it does discount the word as a whole. Incomplete teaching can be represented in Christians that camp on a particular emphasis. Misdirected teaching can be illustrated in the over exaggeration of money by a lot of TV evangelism.
Someone can be mislead by any one of these inaccuracies and miss much of what the Lord would have for them in the process! In these cases, you would probably find that all would hold to the basic tenants of Christian faith, including confessing that Jesus came in the flesh and that He is the Son of God!
A few times I have encountered really proactive evil; People who were demonically or satanically oriented. I had an encounter when I had a new convert that I was working with in the early 80’s. A man showed up at my work and told me that he was going to disciple this young man and I no longer needed to involve myself with him. As I began to try to sort out the situation I drew him into a discussion of the Lord! This man knew more scripture than anyone I had ever met. Everything he spoke was true! There was no fear of scripture or even the name of Jesus! Still there was something that was wrong, a point that he himself made by reading my mind and heart. He stated “you do not know if I am from God or satan do you?” I responded that I did not know and I had reservation. He began to tell me every sin that I had committed and every personal struggle that I had with my faith and the Lord. It was obvious that he had supernatural insight but I still had reservation. Over the next few days I put a lot of prayer into my encounter. He returned within a couple days and as he approached me he stopped a few steps from me and looked at my face. “You have made a decision haven’t you?” he addressed me! “Yes I have!” I answered, “and I do not believe you are of God.” I added! This man began to tell me things about the Satanist church that curled my hair, including the sacrifice of children in Los Angeles! That they traveled in vans and abducted children for the purpose. A year later I was in law enforcement and happened to be going through pictures of local arrests. I came upon this mans photo – Richard Rojarski aka Rev. Robus with the large print across his photo “Never try to Arrest this man alone!” The only photo in the pile with this admonishment!
My point is that for me there has only been one absolute in determining the orientation of a person. They either manifest or are devoid of the Love of God! If I do not sense this deep love, then I question everything that comes from them! I am not speaking of a love ‘for’ God but God’s love through them!
Rapturewatcher and Sunrise make very good points! I would like to add that there is no single biblical reference that I have found to be a good test except for the ‘principle’ that I mentioned and perhaps other principles would serve the purpose.
My wife worked for a bank and among the things taught them to distinguish counterfeit money, was to become so familiar with the real thing that the counterfeit would stand out! The ‘feel’ is usually the first thing that set a bill apart for further evaluation!
I hope this helps!
Love john
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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Caretaker
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God bless you;
I bump this thread for the purpose of sharing some deep and relevant spiritual insight which has been posted.
Please read carefully what John/Wetshoes relates, in his two personal illustrations.
The enemy is real, and he can be sitting in the pews, in your Bible study, on this BB as a Christian.
The Word of God is your yardstick of truth, the Holy Spirit the Illuminator of the darkness, and only the True Lord Jesus Christ in your heart can prepare your for the snares of the enemy.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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Sunrise
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Thank's for the hug John.
One time my family and I went on a behind the scenes tour at our local zoo to watch them feed the lions and tigers and leapords. You have know idea how quick and viscious these animals are until you watch them being fed! They can go from standing perfectly still to their bodies plastered against the chain link of the cage with their claws fully extended in a split hair second. It brought that passage to mind where Satan goes around like a roaring lion waiting to devour you. Yikes!
I think that family (or whatever) was planning to infiltrate your church and you stood between them and their goal. You may very well be on the front lines with this already. I think your experiences in life all come together at some point and are used by God for His purpose.
2Corinthians 13-15: "For such are false apostles,decietful workers,transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel;for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works."
Penny.
Posts: 48 | From: Idaho | Registered: Apr 2004
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ISITjhn423
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I also agree with what someone else said when we are not taught by men, but we are taught by the Holy Spirit. We should incline our eyes and ears to hear what the Spirit of God is saying to us. Comparing what men say to what the Spirit of God says, and we also have another resource to make sure we are listening to the Spirit of Truth and that is the very scriptures. I always listen to the Holy Spirit first, than confirm the Spirit is the Holy Spirit by seeing what the scriptures says. It's also important to stay continously in the scriptures, because this is how we truelly can understand the real thing eg; the counterfeit money thing.
I have had the hair raising experience also, but i don't think it's wise to think all hair raising experiences is God telling us something. Because now we are being dependant upon sensations and not the Holy Spirit. If we give ourselves over to Jesus than his Spirit will abide in us and we can't be lead astray, someone that follows Jesus in his footsteps and has the mind of Christ can't be deceived, because they have the seal of the Spirit of Promise that they are God's. He who obeys God, God has given them His Spirit. One who has the Spirit of God knows who are of God and not of God, because they have the mind of Christ, and walk as Christ walked, they put on the whole armour of God and they are faithful and true even as he is Faithful and True, they are the ones on white horses in the clouds.
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Trafield
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quote:
Satan beleives that The Lord Jesus came in the flesh, and if it served his cause he would gladly proclaim that fact. Why should it be any different with his followers, if they can use the statement get close to a beleiver and slowly lead them away from God their cause has been helped and that is their main concern not what they have to say or how they have to go about doing it.
How can it be any different? Because the Word says it is different. Every spirit means every spirit. But I do understand that this must also be a confession of the heart, not just the lips.
1 John 4:2-3:
2By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God;
3and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.
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philip anthony
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ONE must always test spirits, a true born again christian has the HOLY spirit in him and if you are ever encounted by a spirit and you are scared and frightened it is not from GOD it is from satan
GOD does not give you a spirit of fear but a spirit of love you will know when it happens. anytime you see a spirit you ask it if JESUS sits at the right hand of GOD and has all power and authority been given to him from GOD, use the blood of JESUS , praise JESUS at all times and try to use scripture demons hate they cant stand it and they will leave DEMONS WILL NOT CONFESS THAT JESUS IS LORD THE VERY WORD OF JESUS DRIVES THEM CRAZY PRAISE HIS HOLY NAME JESUS IS LIKE CRYPTONITE TO THEM ( you know superman) that is why this USA is trying to change anything that has to do with CHRIST because that piece of you know what satan is moving in for his last stand
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Adv.Christian
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![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif) Satan beleives that The Lord Jesus came in the flesh, and if it served his cause he would gladly proclaim that fact. Why should it be any different with his followers, if they can use the statement get close to a beleiver and slowly lead them away from God their cause has been helped and that is their main concern not what they have to say or how they have to go about doing it.
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A person talking can not be listening; A person not listening can not be learning.
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Thunderz7
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A couple of times that i have had that "hair standing" feeling, really stand out to me as I read this thread.
One was when a person said something about another minister and group, and i knew the statement was untrue.
The other was something a person did during a time of prayer.
Both times i had a quickening of the spirit, (or quickening by The Spirit), of things being wrong.
In both these cases i tried to put it behind, thinking "no one else is seeing or feeling this",
"everyone else is comfortable with this person".
But Holy Spirit would keep bringing it back to my remembrance,
so i kept an eye on them, and an ear open,
and over time the quickening by The Spirit held the truth.
Many others that i had thought beyond deception of such, were deceived,
worship groups and famlies were torn appart.
A hard lesson but now i am sure of that "quickening".
T7
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SoftTouch
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PRAISE GOD!!! I want to be really careful how I word this because God gets the Glory for everything that happened!!
First, this shows how Absolutely Important it is to spend that quite time with HIM and to Listen to HIS voice when He does speak.
Second, this shows how very vunerable we all are (no matter our position in the Body) to the issue of pride (especially spiritual pride). I think God allows these things to happen to humble us and remind us of just how much we NEED Him. Unfortunately some folks can get totally carried away in these situations until they either heed to correction (which God will Always discipline those He loves), or loose their way completely. PRAISE GOD you saw it immediately!
Third, I think this shows that there is a spirit of discernment (which I believe IS the Holy Spirit that indwells us). That feeling of hairs standing on end was HIS prompting that something was WRONG... I know I've experienced similar things when confronted by someone trying to 'impart' their version of the Holy Spirit. It felt like my entire insides were trying to crawl out of my skin and I just wanted to run away as fast as I could. It's like the Spirit inside of me is SO Uncomfortable that I can't stand the feeling. Whenever that happens I Know something is wrong and God is trying to let me know it. I asked this on another thread (I think it was another thread?) but is this Biblical?
I can see why this would have caused you more grief then the other experience (though both are pretty un-nerving)! Your heart must have absolutly Broken for them! Especially the child. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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Wetshoes
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Here is one that is a little different. Actually this one bothers me more than the first!
Back in the 70’s I was spending some time in prayer. I had a sense that the Lord was telling me to be careful because the enemy had a plan for me! Nothing more to the point was shared just to be sensitive. I think that I had actually forgotten about this conversation by the time Sunday came around. A friend who owned a Christian book store called me and said there was a family looking for a church in our area so I gave them a call and arranged to meet them on Sunday at church.
When Sunday came around, I found a woman, her daughter and grandson outside the church waiting for me! We had some time and we engaged in a rather in-depth conversation. The family had recently come out of the Satanist church and were now soldiers in the Christian army! They had a deliverance ministry to help others escape the bonds of Satanism. This was really intriguing to me! I had never seen a true deliverance and though about how effective one would be to have escaped.
The mother did not state her age, but the daughter was not 20 years old. The boy she introduced to me as 9. She could see that the math did not seem to add up and she offered to me that her grandson had been a product of her daughter’s involvement in ritual! She must have been 10 or 11 at most when she conceived the woman’s grand child. How glad they must have been to have escaped all this and I thought it was really noble for them to be so open.
Church opened up and true to their word they each immediately sought a position to help. The Grandmother offered herself to teach the women, the daughter moved to help in the nursery and even the grandson volunteered to work with the toddlers. We talked a little after church and left with the intent of meeting again before church that evening. We shared quite a little. After church we meet outside and I asked them if I could be included in being there during one of their deliverances! The woman looked at me and told me that she believed that I had a ministry in this area. That they would not only include me in deliverance but in their ministry! She told me that there are not many who are called to this and that I should consider myself very special for the Lord to seek to use me this way! My spiritual pride reeled! Finally my dedication had earned me a place of real task in the kingdom of God! I would actually be on the front line and battle satan and his demons directly!
Then as the boy was getting into their van, he said something to his grandmother. I cannot even remember what it was but I was stricken with idea that this was not the way a child talks to a matriarch; it was more the way an enlisted might speak to an officer! The woman looked at him and scowled. The boy immediately looked at me and hung his head. All this took place in 2 or 3 seconds. The hair on my arms stood up. The woman turned from the boy and looked at me without words. Several seconds passed and she sank. “You know don’t you?” was all she said. “I do” I answered and they got into their van and drove away, never returning to the church. I never saw them again.
What ever plan the enemy had for me I will never know. I often wonder what I would have gotten into if I had followed them. Why had they gone to such great length to single me out of all the others at that church? Did they come there for me or did I just present myself vulnerable? I probably will never know the answer to these questions but I shudder even today to think how close my pride came to causing me to fall victim.
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WoodStoneSteel@hotmail.com
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SoftTouch
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quote:
Originally posted by Wetshoes:
Debbie
Amen sister! Please read the 2nd and 3rd chapters of Ezekiel! It is a short read and I think your spirit will come alive! Let me know if the scroll is sweet or bitter to you! LOL
Love john
Ummm... it was bitter/sweet and a little scary too!
Thinking about your encounter with that guy, wow... I think that would have really freaked me out. I've encountered people who were obviously driven by demons, but never like that (and I must say I hope I never have to).
Sometime I hope you'll share your other encounters with us as well. I think it's important to know about the different ways the enemy appears and how God used you in those encounters. I think it would be edifying to those reading. But I leave that up to your discression ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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Wetshoes
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Penny
Yes, I have no doubt that this man was directly from satan. There are several things that I did not say in my post! He would frequent bible studies and commandeer them! He had a following of paroled felons. One I talked to was scared to death of him. He frequently displayed supernatural powers! He infiltrated the young mans family that I was working with and discipled his father bringing about a divorce and estranged him from his son for 20 years. Rojarski is only one instance in a dozen I can recant! The truth is, these encounters are a little like encountering a mountain lion! Danger becomes quickly obvious. It is the more subtle advances that are more common and ultimately more destructive! Very Glad to see you posting! A big hug to you!
Debbie
Amen sister! Please read the 2nd and 3rd chapters of Ezekiel! It is a short read and I think your spirit will come alive! Let me know if the scroll is sweet or bitter to you! LOL
Love john
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WoodStoneSteel@hotmail.com
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SoftTouch
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Thank you my Brother John! I do understand what you're saying and I agree that not all misguided teachers are necessairly being directed by satan, but by more of a self-centered motivation (for whatever the reasons may be... money, status, etc.) I can see that clearly in the passages you quoted. I can also see that rather the deception/misleading comes from satan or an individuals own heart, it's still a deception/misleading and it's still something God opposes. I certainly don't want to partake in the punishment of the one presenting the falsehood I'm sure that others don't either.
One thing I think about when posting these things is perhaps it's something that someone else needs to see at that moment too. It's heavy on my heart for some reason and I just have to share what I've found. Perhaps God uses threads like these to wake some of his children up from the falsehoods they might not have been aware they've been following? I pray that's the case! (Now I'm sitting here thinking... ok Debbie, now you're trying to justify your actions LOL) Honestly though, I'm just doing what I feel Led to do ![[Smile]](smile.gif) But as Always, I very much appreciate and respect your input! Please never hesitate to add it! ![[Kiss]](graemlins/Kiss.gif)
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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Wetshoes
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Bro Greg
Thank you for posting! I saw Softouch’s post as I was leaving and I did not have time to respond. Thank you!
Softouch
You are right Debbie! Paul dedicated a lot of his ministry in correcting the misguiding doctrines that permeated the Church. My reason for posting (to the thread and not you specifically), was to be ‘additive’ not ‘corrective’ to the conversation that was developing between you and Trafield.
My last line :
“This is not to discount the need to test and even unveil the false teachers but people do have a responsible part in following them!”
There is one thing that I would ask you to pray about! This is the ‘absolute’ thought that all false prophesy is satanic in origin! Let me share one passage that points toward prophesy that is merely humanistic. There are many others but this one is fairly clear to the point that I would like to make:
Eze 13:2 "Mortal man," he said, "denounce the prophets of Israel who make up their own prophecies. Tell them to listen to the word of the LORD."
Eze 13:3 This is what the Sovereign LORD says: "These foolish prophets are doomed! They provide their own inspiration and invent their own visions.
Eze 13:4 People of Israel, your prophets are as useless as foxes living among the ruins of a city.
Eze 13:5 They don't guard the places where the walls have crumbled, nor do they rebuild the walls, and so Israel cannot be defended when war comes on the day of the LORD.
Eze 13:6 Their visions are false, and their predictions are lies. They claim that they are speaking my message, but I have not sent them. Yet they expect their words to come true!
Eze 13:7 I tell them: Those visions you see are false, and the predictions you make are lies. You say that they are my words, but I haven't spoken to you!"
Eze 13:8 So the Sovereign LORD says to them, "Your words are false, and your visions are lies. I am against you.
Eze 13:9 I am about to punish you prophets who have false visions and make misleading predictions. You will not be there when my people gather to make decisions; your names will not be included in the list of the citizens of Israel; you will never return to your land. Then you will know that I am the Sovereign LORD.
Eze 13:10 "The prophets mislead my people by saying that all is well. All is certainly not well! My people have put up a wall of loose stones, and then the prophets have come and covered it with whitewash.
The reason that I think that it is important to look at this point, is there is a stigma that all that is ‘misleading’ has a diabolical origin! Although I think that it is clear that our enemy will use every device to mislead, it is not necessary for satan to be the author of all deception for it to be deceiving! Someone who speaks ‘anything’ as from God when it is not, is prophesying falsely! It is not uncommon for people to amplify something they are emotional about with the words “God told me!” Or even to break out in prophesy to put the point forth. What is being said may even be true but if what is said is projected as from the mouth of God as worded by God when it is not, the prophesy is false! What makes prophesy false is not what is said but where it originated! This is why it is important to know our Shepherd’s voice, because validity cannot always be judged by context alone!
I hate to post this, but this is an extreme example of a peoples responsibility toward God in spite of false prophets:
Eze 14:9 "If any prophets are deceived into giving a false answer, it is because I, the LORD, have deceived them. I will remove them from the people of Israel.
Eze 14:10 Both prophets and anyone who consults them will get the same punishment.
Eze 14:11 I will do this to keep the Israelites from deserting me and defiling themselves by their sins. They are to be my people, and I will be their God." The Sovereign LORD has spoken.
In the context of this chapter, the ones being deceived are guilty of abandoning God! There truly seems to be a predisposition on the part of some to find something or someone other than God to follow! If a people who did not have an indwelling of the Holy Spirit had such a high standard of expectation what is expected of a Spirit filled believer?
The point that I am trying to make, is that we are responsible to follow God because He has given us sufficient grace to do so!
Secondly, that not all deception is purely satanic in origin. To test a matter for purely evil influence could cause someone to overlook the human element of deception or the possibility that those being deceived are following a course necessary to bring them to true repentance!
In the case of false prophets and misleading teachers, they are not necessarily the only villains. Research the bible paradigms where people are mislead. The principle is almost invariable. Our Lord does not seem to treat them with any more compassion than the ones misleading. Even in the case of Balaam where the people were supplanted by a true prophet following false motives, the Lord did not exonerate their sin!
So what is the duty of watchers? The assignment of the watcher on the wall, is to see adversity approaching! Not only to declare it in the city when it has entered! Approaching adversity is very often the human element of apathy on the part of the citizens and the motives of those approaching them! But the watchers were the prophets. They had a specific assignment. Today the gift of prophecy is attributed to almost anyone who is bold enough to stand up and declare “thus saith the Lord!” In Corinthians Paul said ‘Let the prophet speak two or three and let the other judge!” The other what? I believe that it is the other prophets. In any case they are judged! And what did prophesy accomplish? It revealed the hidden hearts of those in audience!
I believe we should be as the Berans! Whether or not someone has prophetic calling, we all need to know not only what the bible says but what it means!
I asked you to pray about all of this Debbie! I think that this will seem very disjointed and conflict with much we have been taught! See for yourself if there is any truth in what I am sharing! I expect to be wrong many times in my life, here is no different! I love and trust you too! I respect your absolute resolve to find the truth and settle for nothing less and nothing added! Let me know if there is something amiss here!
Love john
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WoodStoneSteel@hotmail.com
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Sunrise
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Geez Wetshoes the encounter you had with the Satan worshiper was chilling! I have read books about demon possession and exorcism. Those that deal with this have all said that a person who is perfectly demon possessed will have knowledge about all of your passed sins and doubts, they have supernatural abilities and strength. I don't think you were conversing with a human there.
Penny.
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Sunrise
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On the subject of what to say to those that are in false systems. Ishopeful was asking if we should speak up about false teaching.
If it's a neighboor or family member that belives something different I let it go unless they bring the subject up. If they come and try to teach me or my children or invite them to church activities then I come out with both guns blazing. I don't consider those that are dissing Jesus to be brothers or sisters in Christ. If the doctrine strays to far from historical chritianity or denies his deity while he was on earth than I consider that to be a falsehood.
If someone is teaching something that is blatenly false, I think you should say something. If the missionairies come to the door from the Mormon church or Jehova's Witness, I tell them that they should closely examine what the church is teaching and that the doctrines are contrary to the teaching of God and the Bible and that they should get out and spare themselves a lifetime of deception and misery. I tell them that Jesus will becoming back soon and they should be prepared for that.
Most of time I think they are so mired in deception that there is not much that can be said to them. I think it's the deal where their minds are seared by a hot iron.
The one thing I come across more and more lately is that people believe that Jesus is a myth instead of a historical reality. I don't think that they fear God anymore or judgement and so they can go any which way.
What I find interesting is that they don't want to believe in the God of the Bible but,they are happy to believe that they can become gods themselves or they believe in ghosts and fairies and harnessing the forces of nature.
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SoftTouch
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Thank you Brother Greg That does make sense. I know the day I stop learning is the day I'd better re-examine myself! (Which is something I know we're to do on an ongoing basis )
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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Bro. Greg
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Deb, I don't think that John is saying that you are wrong. If I misunderstand his posts I appologize for overstepping my boundries with my opinion. I think what John is saying is that we as christians desire the truth and by the Holy Ghost within us we are guided into truth by our desire for the truth. Now the blind that lead the blind are those that blind because they do not seek the truth and the Holy Ghost in not in them to lead them to the truth. Now the blind can say what they want and another that is blind also won't know any difference. So the end results are they are both in the ditch. But to one is indwelled by the Holy Spirit will be led to truth by those others that the Holy Spirit is using to bring forth the truth.
Have you ever wondered why we do know just know everything at the moment that the Holy Spirit endwells us? I know that I still learn daily things the Lord is teaching me. So are you sister. This just is the Work of the Holy Spirit. I think the reason Jesus said let them be is that there comes a point in a persons lives that they refuse to accept the truth. How can we know this...the same way Peter knew Annanias and his wife kept the portion of the proceeds from what they sold..... By the Holy Spirit within us!
Just a thought, How can a blind man teach another blind man to paint the Mona Lisa?
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Isaiah 5:20(KJV) 20Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
Bro. Greg
In and By His Grace
http://www.mychristiansite.com/ministries/pass_it_on
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SoftTouch
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John, I understand what you're saying and I agree. We are responsible for how we handle what we hear and for testing it. I went back and read Matt 15:14 in context to gain a better understanding, but now I'm confused LOL
My understanding of what I've read in Scripture is that we're to be good Bereans and some are even called to be watchmen... if we're to 'leave them be' then who is it we're supposed to unveil the false teachers to? Paul spent a lot of time straightening out false teaching. Am I wrong in trying to point things like this out? I promise I won't take offense whatever your response may be I Love and Respect you too much in the Lord!
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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Wetshoes
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Before this thread gets to heated to hear each others reasoning – I would very carefully like to interject one principle that we need to consider. We have all seen the false teachers both modern and historic. Many of us have been hurt or know others who have.
But there is a principle that really needs to be considered and Softouch used the scripture in Hebrews – that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God!
Who’s responsibility is it to provide us the word of God? That one then would be responsible for out faith – wouldn’t they? But we are given the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth! Our Lord has a rather casual way of approaching wrong teaching!
Mat 15:14 Let them be: they are blind guides. And if a blind man is guiding a blind man, the two will go falling into a hole together.
I truly believe that if it were not for the fact that our Lord equipped us with a superior teacher, then He would have taken a stronger stand on the issue! My personal feeling is that we put way too much stock in being taught by men and do not consider that it may be an offense to lean on these teachers so much!
The bible gives us general warnings but in truth, we are expected to know our Shepherd’s voice. There is not a single example in scripture where one is justified in being mislead!
The scriptures amplify the virtues of anointed “hearing” far more than they do anointed “speaking!” This is not to discount the need to test and even unveil the false teachers but people do have a responsible part in following them!
Love john
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Wetshoes
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Trafield
Oh I agree wholeheartedly!
I would not begin to try to tell someone that they were not known by their Lord! I would not even ‘think’ that way, anymore than I would try to question a parent’s love for their child!
I also agree that many times I have read posts that are very condescending! More often I think these kinds of conflicts are more from our inability to communicate in writing than they are over substance. Someone gets their feelings hurt and responds another defends and off we go!
On this weboard, we can really only take things at face value! We come from so many different backgrounds and it gets rough sometimes to understand where someone’s faith is rooted. But I think we have to take things at face value here! It isn’t hard to search the scriptures and see if what someone is saying is true. But it is much harder to tell if they are misleading!
I have never found it necessary to ‘judge’ someone’s faith here. Even when we ‘wolves’ come in from time to time, they find it hard to veil themselves in wool! There are so many good scholars here that someone better be able to offer a good scriptural basis for what they are saying or they are very quickly leapt upon! But even in these cases, what is being said is easily judged apart from having to judge the person!
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WoodStoneSteel@hotmail.com
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SoftTouch
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Tra, you and I are just going to have to agree to disagree on Warren.
Here is an answer I got on another board I'm on (to the same question I posted here). I found this answer to be Excellent! What do you all think?
"I think there is plenty of misunderstanding governing this idea, and the root of this can be found at the incorrect reading of
1Jo 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
The word used for "spirit" here is
ðíåõ͂ìá
pneuma
pnyoo'-mah
From G4154; a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, daemon, or (divine) God, Christ’s spirit, the Holy spirit: - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare G5590.
It is very rarely used, even today, to describe a person. It is used to described what it says: spirits - entities.
And this is what John wants us to learn how to discern. The spirit of the false prophets. Since any prophet does not speak of his own, but receives from a spirit. If it is His prophet, he receives from the Comforter. If not, from an evil spirit.
So, this instruction and guidance from John does NOT apply in discerning PEOPLE per se and how they stand. It is used against SPIRITS. Either in visions, overshadowings, divinations, revelations etc etc. NOT about humans. Human beings have NO such restrain in what they claim.
The test for humans is another one, very clear and very straightforward but a different test altogether.Deceivers therefore need to be tested against,
Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
So, these two 'tests' are meant for two different beings. Spirit beings and human beings. Using the wrong test for the wrong being will definitely bring invalid conclusions. Since there are plenty of spirit beings which produce 'good' fruit (especially when transforming into angels of light - healings etc) and plenty of false teachers who can claim Jesus Christ in the flesh.
But there is NO deceitful spirit that will confess the Messiah in flesh, neither a false teacher with good fruit.
So, Debbie, imho, test this man by his fruit and not his claims and words. If his fruits are deception, then he is a deceiver. If you happen to come in contact with a spirit that is guiding him and giving him prophetic revelations, then this spirit should be asked the first question.
imho
agape in Him
m"
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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Trafield
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Brother Tra, Didn't Jesus also tell us that we would know them by their fruits? If a 'teacher' is teaching a watered down version of the Gospel, then they are most likly producing un-regenerated 'christians' because these people don't understand the Fullness of Christ or their need for His Atonement because they don't understand that they are born with a Sinful nature and Need to repent and be covered by His Blood. How can one repent of something they don't understand? "Faith comes through hearing, and hearing through the "Word of God." If you change the "Word of God" to be 'palatable' or 'acceptable' then you've robbed the person hearing of the Truth. Is this not anti-Christ?
Softouch, from personal experience I can tell you that a rush to judgement without having all the facts will lead those with a critical, judgemental spirit to acuse someone of "watering down" the gospel.
A preacher only has so much time to speak in a sermon and may not have the time to cover all the bases to satisy your criticism and scrutiny. And probably will not if he is doing what he should and be focusing on the lost more than the saved.
My point is that when you think you know something about someone, you are probably more off the mark than you could possibly imagine...especially if it is a professing Christian.
You have accused Rick Warren extensively for "watering down" the gospel and even being in the camp of the antichrist, but his stated beliefs are quite consistant with the only requirement for salvation.
I have also seen Cutting Edge do the same with Billy Graham. You need to understand that there are ministries that are very much of God but that are not there to please you. They are there to serve God as God has equipped them.
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SoftTouch
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quote:
Originally posted by Sunrise:
Jesus was God in the flesh, he came to overturn the works of the devil and save our souls.
AMEN Sunrise! I also appreciated the rest of your post - thank you!
My Brothers John and Greg... Wow, Excellent Posts! I definitely agree with Knowing the Genuine totally and therefore being able to see the false clearly. I'm working on it!
Brother Tra, Didn't Jesus also tell us that we would know them by their fruits? If a 'teacher' is teaching a watered down version of the Gospel, then they are most likly producing un-regenerated 'christians' because these people don't understand the Fullness of Christ or their need for His Atonement because they don't understand that they are born with a Sinful nature and Need to repent and be covered by His Blood. How can one repent of something they don't understand? "Faith comes through hearing, and hearing through the "Word of God." If you change the "Word of God" to be 'palatable' or 'acceptable' then you've robbed the person hearing of the Truth. Is this not anti-Christ?
If you see that a 'teacher' is aligning himself with Known Heritics - People who DO Deny the Diety of Jesus (i.e. Moormans), and others who deny His sacrifice as sufficient, then can you really call him Brother?
There are so many statements concerning sticking to Sound Doctrine in the Bible... What do you do when a 'teacher' says to de-emphaise Doctrine? Doctrine is Essential, to water it down, or ignore it because it's called 'devicive' to me is the spirit of Anti-Christ. When 'teachers' step away from Sound, Fundamental Doctrine (and tell others to do likewise) then I have to separate myself from them and show others what it is I've seen that's caused me to do so.
Unfortunately, I have a Horrible memory and I'm not one who can easily find Scripture to quote, but I know that this is what the Lord wants us to do. I believe I posted the scripture from 2nd Timothy 4(??) on the other thread that "Charges us before God" to do this.
Also, I have not passed a judgement on this particular teacher, I have simply put the information I've found exposing the falsness in his teaching on this board for others to consider. It is God who will judge him, not me.
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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Trafield
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quote:
I believe that there is more to confessing Jesus than even knowing and stating our Lord’s true identity and position in the Godhead! That true confession is a point of contact where one not only knows their Lord but is known by Him! This point I believe is brought out a few lines later in 1st John by the manifested love between the believers. The substance of God (love) being exchanged freely!
You may be right about that. But let me pose another question: is it love to doubt another's stated confession? For as you say, God knows who are His. Some here obliterate the line between testing the spirits and judging their bretheren. I am afraid that these would have been the first to shout "Crucify him!"
Romans 14:4-13
4Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.
6He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.
7For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself;
8for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s.
9For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
10But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.
11For it is written,
“As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me,
And every tongue shall give praise to God.”
12So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.
13Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this—not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother’s way.
2 Timothy 2:14-19
14Remind them of these things, and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers.
15Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.
16But avoid worldly and empty chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness,
17and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus,
18men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and they upset the faith of some.
19Nevertheless, the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Everyone who names the name of the Lord is to abstain from wickedness.”
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Wetshoes
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Trafield
Yes! Jesus is God! In fact I remember years ago when Walter Martin was alive, he had a series in tape and book, call kindom of the cults. The one common denominator to all the cults was that they denied the diety of Jesus!
As I think you will agree – that one can believe all this, confess it and still be wrong and misleading! When softouch posted her question, I think she was asking if one could be judged as misleading purely by the scripture she posted.
I use the TV personalities only to pick a source we can all relate to! I have heard some of them give wonderful teachings on our Lord. Include His diety, salvation through His death, our need to recognize Him, die to ourselves, Give a heartfelt altar call and people come forward and repent! I am sure many even come to know the Lord through some of their ministries. But then they redirect this love and sheer the sheep. I use this analogy because I heard one of them laughingly remark that you can only skin a sheep once but you can sheer them time and again!
My point is that there is a difference between believing in the Kingdom of God, advancing the Kingdom of God and being the Kingdom of God! Our Lord made the point where some stood before Him and used the manifestations of God through them as justification, to which the Lord simply said, depart from Me, I never knew you! A point made in Acts where the Jewish exorcist used Jesus name and qualified the Jesus they ment by stating the same Jesus whom Paul preached. The demons responded Jesus we know, Paul we know but you we do not and leaped upon them!
I believe that there is more to confessing Jesus than even knowing and stating our Lord’s true identity and position in the Godhead! That true confession is a point of contact where one not only knows their Lord but is known by Him! This point I believe is brought out a few lines later in 1st John by the manifested love between the believers. The substance of God (love) being exchanged freely!
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WoodStoneSteel@hotmail.com
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Trafield
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Wetshoes,
There is also more concerning Jesus coming in the flesh. This means that one must also confess that Jesus is God. That he is God that has come in the flesh (John 1:14).
If a person confesses this, then they are most definately a child of God. A person not of God will not be able to confess that Jesus is God in the flesh for he will not get it. Sure, he may call him the Son of God, but will he see Jesus as God? This is what is meant by knowing that Jesus came in the flesh. It does not mean to believe that he was simply born. Demons indeed know that. We are told that this is how we are to know who is genuine and who is not.
So if you believe that Jesus is God you will be able to confess with your mouth, and without this belief, you will not.
If someone could confess with their mouth and yet believe differently it would render the passage irrelavant would it not?
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Bro. Greg
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LOL Trafield! I see no need to discuss with you the scriptures because you say I know not the scriptures. For what do we have in common?
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Isaiah 5:20(KJV) 20Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
Bro. Greg
In and By His Grace
http://www.mychristiansite.com/ministries/pass_it_on
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Wetshoes
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Trafield
The word ‘confess’ is more than a verbal statement! It is the “spirit” of the false prophets that is being tested, not the statement! The scripture follows with the illustration that those that Love are born of God and know God, but they who have no love do not know God! There is also a distinction here that the Love they express is projected toward each other and not just a love toward God!
One tested to be false is told to have the spirit of antichrist – again the word antichrist is not synonymous with outwardly against Jesus but is projecting a replacement or counterfeit to Him! Israel was looking for a Messiah (heb) or Christ (grk) and many were promoting others as the one sent. To acknowledge Jesus as the “Christ” was a spirit confession or acknowledgment that He was the “One” sent!
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WoodStoneSteel@hotmail.com
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Trafield
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Greg, concerning Bible studies..
I only study under people that believe the Word of God, not contradict it.
However, I am still curious how you can reconcile your above statement with scripture. Are you saying 1 John 4:2 is wrong?
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Bro. Greg
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Trafield I still offer to do some one on one bible study with you! Like I said, we are never to old or young to learn something!
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Isaiah 5:20(KJV) 20Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
Bro. Greg
In and By His Grace
http://www.mychristiansite.com/ministries/pass_it_on
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J4Jesus
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wait a second. what happened everyone?
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Trafield
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Wow, so now we go from contradicting the Word of God, to giving Satan credit.
I know the Word says that greater is He that is in me than the he that is in the world.
It seems the apostasy is in full force! So let the judgement begin in the house of God.
He who TRULY has ears to hear, let him hear.
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J4Jesus
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yea man, you watch that TBN show and you get a good idea bout who's real and who's faking it
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Wetshoes
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Ishopeful
That is a good point! I think that a good way to approach someone is to find the truth the best that you can and them approach them with that! The truth is a good shield to stand behind and one will either return your approach with something you may not have seen or – hopefully be corrected by the truth you are sharing!
Bro
What a great post!
I think that brings up a point that is missed by many! Satan is not afraid of God! He moves to and from the throne of God without timidity. Jude referes to an encounter between Michael the archangel and satan, where it says “But even Michael did not rail a judgment against him (satan) but simply said the Lord rebuke you!” I have been with people during some rather condescending and arrogant spiritual warfare! If satan is not timid around God he certainly would not quiver in human presence!
In engaging the enemy as scripture teaches, I think it may be good to look at the description of weaponry in Ephesians! I have heard taught that our armor is “frontal” and the association is that we engage the enemy aggressively but the verse underscores the point that when you have done all – to stand! The weapons are powerful but they are used defensively. To “withstand” or preserver in an attack.
Jam 4:7 Be subject therefore unto God; but resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Love john
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WoodStoneSteel@hotmail.com
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Trafield
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quote:
So we see that it is VERY possible for a person and a demon to proclaim that Jesus came in the flesh.
Greg, how do reconcile the above statement that clearly contradicts the Word of God? Does the term "every spirit" have some kind of relativity with you?
So either you or the Word of God is wrong. You know which side I am on.
1 John 4:2
2By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God;
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Bro. Greg
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SoftTouch, I agree with what Wetshoes has said about it being hard to tell who is of God and who is not. I totally agree with his view of the counterfiet money. I believe if we put our efforts on knowing the real thing and get to know it the best we can then when the fonies show up they are so obvious they stand out in a crowd.
Sticking to your question as asked lets see what the scriptures say:
Question: Is is possible for someone to claim that Jesus came in the flesh and yet still be a deciever?
Let's look at this scripture:
quote:
The Holy Bible, King James Version
Matt 8:28 - Matt 8:32 (KJV) 28And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way. 29And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time? 30And there was a good way off from them an herd of many swine feeding. 31So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine. 32And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters.
If we look at the bold part of the passage we can see that what is being said is that the demons were acknowledging Jesus as the Son of God. They not only acknowledged that He was the Son of God but that they were to be tormented at a given point in time therefore asked, Have you come before the time. They understood their future and who He was. The fruit of their understanding were the words they spoke. No only did they understand, they also believed that He was the Son of God and ask to be removed to the swine. Note they didn't not run from Him to the swine but in subjection asked for their leave. Also note that in their demonic mind they still used the words, "If thou.." Satan and His demons use the words, "If thou..." a lot when pertaining to God. So the words people use if paid attention to can reveal their identity. Just as we know who was speaking at the cross when the words spoken, "If thou be the Son of God save yourself."
"If thou" is an motivating statement used to try to get someone to do something. It is not always of evil motives though, but it still is a motivating statement. If we look carefully at the passage, Jesus was not talking to the man but the demons. If we also look at it deeper Jesus did not "cast them out" He simply said, Go! He gave them permission to Go to the swine not cast them out of the man. There is a deeper look into what is being done here but I feel led at this time not to go that deep.
It is interesting that the demons called Him by name and used the term Son of God and not son of man as some prophets were refered to. So they themselves validified that God was made flesh and dwelt amoung us and that Jesus was just not a prophet as some claim today. It is also obvious they were speaking to Him as He stood in the flesh so acknowledged the fact that the Son of God was manifested in the flesh.
Here is the account that is in Mark:
quote:
The Holy Bible, King James Version
Mark 5:6 - Mark 5:13 (KJV) 6But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him, 7And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not. 8For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit. 9And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many. 10And he besought him much that he would not send them away out of the country. 11Now there was there nigh unto the mountains a great herd of swine feeding. 12And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them. 13And forthwith Jesus gave them leave.
Here we see the scriptures actually say that "he" ran and worshipped Him. Who was "he" that ran an worshipped Him? The one Jesus was speaking with. Legion! The demon! Again, we see that Jesus did not cast the demons out nor did they come out as he said, Come out of the man! They resisted trying to get Jesus to force them out by the power and might of God. They were tempting Him to use His power to force them out. But after He wouldn't they asked Him to allow them to go to the swine and He gave them leave. He allowed them to go! By their asking for permission they again validified who He was and submitted to His authority.
So we see that it is VERY possible for a person and a demon to proclaim that Jesus came in the flesh. The demon even ran and worshipped Him. Yet we see that the motive concerning the man was to destroy him. We can see this by what they were doing to the man. We can also see their destructive motive that was driving them was carried out in the swine as they ran down and died in the water. Their goal was to destroy but the man was saved from the destruction by the Son of God.
Now on down we see the men that were not possessed of demons saw what was done and were afraid. The besought Jesus to leave from their county out of a greedy heart. They had lost their herd due to the event and wanted Him to leave. The point was that they were more concerned for a herd of swine than a man being delivered from demons.
quote:
The Holy Bible, King James Version
Luke 8:37 - Luke 8:39 (KJV) 37Then the whole multitude of the country of the Gadarenes round about besought him to depart from them; for they were taken with great fear: and he went up into the ship, and returned back again. 38Now the man out of whom the devils were departed besought him that he might be with him: but Jesus sent him away, saying, 39Return to thine own house, and show how great things God hath done unto thee.
I hope that you see that a man can proclaim that Jesus came in the flesh and still be motivated by Satan to destroy people. Especially Christians Sister. How do we guard against this deception we are faced with daily by the likes of Pastors and Preachers and people claiming to be Christians proclaiming and not denying the deity of Christ? In Christ Crucified!
As Wetshoes said, we need to know the real thing so we can see the false for what it is...deception. Let me say it like this.
We have a neighbor that we watch every day walk out to the mailbox and get the news paper for years. Then one day, we being used to seeing the neighbor every morning getting the paper, do not see them that day. Now immediatly we are concerned and notice the "out of the ordinary" and begin to watch. Now another goes by and the news papers pile up with no neighbor. Then we go to the neighbors house and find that the person had perhaps became ill and wasn't able to get the paper. We then offer to bring them the paper until they regain the ability to get it for themselves.
Point is we have become so accutely atune to the routine of the neighbor that we can tell something is wrong when the papers start to pile up.
Scriptures such as this are true but are evident that they deny Jesus so we can easily avoid these people for they deny Christ Crucified!
quote:
Mat 16:6 Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
I learned the hard way in the army that those people pointing guns at me in the open were not the real threat. I could see when they were pointing them and aiming at me. The ones that would kill me were the ones that were hidden in the treeline or bushes. By the time I saw the puff of smoke and mussle fire the bullet had hit it's target. Me! Or my fellow soldier. I learned to watch the treeline and the bushes but kept an eye on the open areas as well!
I hope this helps you with your question dear sister!
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Isaiah 5:20(KJV) 20Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
Bro. Greg
In and By His Grace
http://www.mychristiansite.com/ministries/pass_it_on
Posts: 527 | From: Montana, USA | Registered: Mar 2004
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Wetshoes
Advanced Member
Member # 48
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posted
Debbie,
You hit on a really good question! I think that it may be important to consider that there are many levels of adversity that we run into. They range from simple error to active evil!
There is teaching that is simply wrong, incomplete or correct in content but misdirected in intent! Wrong teaching can be simply a misinterpretation of a particular passage or passages. A popular illustration is a common teaching on agape love pitted against phileo. Agape is touted as God’s love phileo as something carnal but the Lord uses the term in many places, one in particular is where He addresses Peter at the end of John where He asks “Peter – do you ‘phileo’ me? … feed my sheep! Is there harm from the misinterpretation? Not really but it does discount the word as a whole. Incomplete teaching can be represented in Christians that camp on a particular emphasis. Misdirected teaching can be illustrated in the over exaggeration of money by a lot of TV evangelism.
Someone can be mislead by any one of these inaccuracies and miss much of what the Lord would have for them in the process! In these cases, you would probably find that all would hold to the basic tenants of Christian faith, including confessing that Jesus came in the flesh and that He is the Son of God!
A few times I have encountered really proactive evil; People who were demonically or satanically oriented. I had an encounter when I had a new convert that I was working with in the early 80’s. A man showed up at my work and told me that he was going to disciple this young man and I no longer needed to involve myself with him. As I began to try to sort out the situation I drew him into a discussion of the Lord! This man knew more scripture than anyone I had ever met. Everything he spoke was true! There was no fear of scripture or even the name of Jesus! Still there was something that was wrong, a point that he himself made by reading my mind and heart. He stated “you do not know if I am from God or satan do you?” I responded that I did not know and I had reservation. He began to tell me every sin that I had committed and every personal struggle that I had with my faith and the Lord. It was obvious that he had supernatural insight but I still had reservation. Over the next few days I put a lot of prayer into my encounter. He returned within a couple days and as he approached me he stopped a few steps from me and looked at my face. “You have made a decision haven’t you?” he addressed me! “Yes I have!” I answered, “and I do not believe you are of God.” I added! This man began to tell me things about the Satanist church that curled my hair, including the sacrifice of children in Los Angeles! That they traveled in vans and abducted children for the purpose. A year later I was in law enforcement and happened to be going through pictures of local arrests. I came upon this mans photo – Richard Rojarski aka Rev. Robus with the large print across his photo “Never try to Arrest this man alone!” The only photo in the pile with this admonishment!
My point is that for me there has only been one absolute in determining the orientation of a person. They either manifest or are devoid of the Love of God! If I do not sense this deep love, then I question everything that comes from them! I am not speaking of a love ‘for’ God but God’s love through them!
Rapturewatcher and Sunrise make very good points! I would like to add that there is no single biblical reference that I have found to be a good test except for the ‘principle’ that I mentioned and perhaps other principles would serve the purpose.
My wife worked for a bank and among the things taught them to distinguish counterfeit money, was to become so familiar with the real thing that the counterfeit would stand out! The ‘feel’ is usually the first thing that set a bill apart for further evaluation!
I hope this helps!
Love john
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WoodStoneSteel@hotmail.com
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lshopeful
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posted
Question. We know to be weary of the false prophets but do we go so far as to bring judgement? The delema I face is recognizing the falsness of some teachings and being uncertain as to what action to take. How to I follow Gods plan for me and wittness to others who may be drawn into the false messages of others?
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Sunrise
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Member # 3195
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posted
I think spiritually we live in difficult times with false teachings. The one thing that I keep seeing more and more is a return of gnostic beliefs and pantheism where we become gods. what I look for is if they deny the diety of Christ in some way shape or form. If they try to lower Christ to the level of a man and try to elevate man to that of God.
Some groups will call Jesus a great teacher or prophet but he wasn't God. Some say that Jesus was just a man full of sin and exalted himself to godhood and so can we. And then some say that Jesus wasn't a man but spirit. The real deal is this: Jesus was God in the flesh, he came to overturn the works of the devil and save our souls.
Also if a group wants to make merchandise out of you. Are they using you to sell flowers on highway or fundraise constantly? Or devote all of your resources, time and energy to build their kingdom?
Another thing I look for is the fruits that are produced. Are people in the group happy loving people with a heart for God? Does the teaching focus on Jesus or mostly on the church?
2 Peter chapter 2 is good reading for this subject. Also 1 John and Jude.
Posts: 48 | From: Idaho | Registered: Apr 2004
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rapturewatcher
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Member # 94
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posted
Treasury of Scripture Knowledge
Treasury of Scripture Knowledge Reference for Mat 7:15
Mat 7:15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 10:17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;
Mat 16:6 Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
Mar 12:38 And he said unto them in his doctrine, Beware of the scribes, which love to go in long clothing, and [love] salutations in the marketplaces,
Luk 12:15 And he said unto them, Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man's life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth.
Act 13:40 Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets;
Phl 3:2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know [these things] before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Deu 13:1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
Isa 9:15 The ancient and honourable, he [is] the head; and the prophet that teacheth lies, he [is] the tail.
Jer 14:14 Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.
Mic 3:5 Thus saith the LORD concerning the prophets that make my people err, that bite with their teeth, and cry, Peace; and he that putteth not into their mouths, they even prepare war against him.
Mar 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if [it were] possible, even the elect.
2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
1Jo 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
Mar 12:38 And he said unto them in his doctrine, Beware of the scribes, which love to go in long clothing, and [love] salutations in the marketplaces,
Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
2Cr 11:13 For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
Gal 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:
Eph 4:14 That we [henceforth] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
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Mic 3:5 Thus saith the LORD concerning the prophets that make my people err, that bite with their teeth, and cry, Peace; and he that putteth not into their mouths, they even prepare war against him.
Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
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Posts: 187 | Registered: Jun 2002
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SoftTouch
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Member # 2316
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posted
Question: Is is possible for someone to claim that Jesus came in the flesh and yet still be a deciever?
I posted this question in another thread, but I think it might have gotten burried. It's obvious that I need to know my Bible a Whole Lot Better (I'm working on that but I've got a long ways to go), but can you all show me all the different verses that address our responsibilities for pointing out false teaching/teachers etc.?
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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