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Topic: One marks of coming of Christ is fulling soon!
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BORN AGAIN
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posted
brother edenwill writes to BORN AGAIN quote:
I think that "living waters" refers to the gospel. I think that Men could 'heal' the situations with the Dead Sea and the Mediterranean. But only God can deliver "living waters."
Well, yes, living waters also refers to the Holy Spirit inside of us which will be "as living water" in our belly:
John 7:38
He who believes on me, as the scripture has said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
But I do not think that the living waters of Ezekiel 47 can be spiritualized. Ezekiel 47 is talking about real H2O water (albeit water coming out from under the threshold of the Lord's temple at Jerusalem), and this physical water heals the Dead Sea, also called the Salt Sea, and heals the Mediterranean Sea, to the extent that fishers again fish on the formerly Dead Sea, now teeming with fish.
Brother edenwill, this water of Ezekiel 47 is real H2O water:
Ezekiel 47
1 Afterward he brought me again unto the door of the house; and, behold, waters issued out from under the threshold of the house eastward: for the forefront of the house stood toward the east, and the waters came down from under from the right side of the house, at the south side of the altar.
2 Then brought he me out of the way of the gate northward, and led me about the way without unto the utter gate by the way that looketh eastward; and, behold, there ran out waters on the right side.
3 And when the man that had the line in his hand went forth eastward, he measured a thousand cubits, and he brought me through the waters; the waters were to the ankles.
4 Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through the waters; the waters were to the knees. Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through; the waters were to the loins.
5 Afterward he measured a thousand; and it was a river that I could not pass over: for the waters were risen, waters to swim in, a river that could not be passed over.
6 And he said unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen this? Then he brought me, and caused me to return to the brink of the river.
7 Now when I had returned, behold, at the bank of the river were very many trees on the one side and on the other.
8 Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert and go into the sea: which, being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.
9 And it shall come to pass, that every thing that lives, which moves, wheresoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come there: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live where the river comes.
Now, I agree, edenwill, I could also spiritualize the above verses and say "wherever the river of living water (the Holy Spirit) comes, healing follows and there are many fish {believers).
But that Ezekiel is also speaking of a real physical H20 river cannot be denied because actual people will stand on the shore of the healed Dead Sea and fish there:
10 And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from Engedi even to Eneglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.
As many as will be in the great sea, which is the Med Sea. There will be as many fish in the healed Dead Sea as there will be in the healed Med Sea and as proof, fishers will stand along the shore of the healed Dead Sea from Engedi to Englaim.
I think this text demands that there will be a physical fulfillent of this also in a real healed Dead Sea when Jesus sets down on the mount of Olives and the mount of Olives splits into two halves, one to half moves north and the other half moves south, leavning a large valley in the direction of Jericho and the desert and the currently Dead Sea which will be healed.
11 But the miry places thereof and the marishes thereof shall not be healed; they shall be given to salt.
bless the LORD God of Israel
"I put no confidence in the flesh; I will trust that the Lord God Yeshua and His Holy Spirit are busy working in me; shine, shine, shine, in a darkened world" BORN AGAIN in the USA by the ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif)
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edenwill
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
"living waters" means natural spring water, or "water which gushed forth from the ground" without making a well.
No. What does "living waters" mean in Scripture.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/words/l/1144123628-6289.html
I think that "living waters" refers to the gospel. I think that Men could 'heal' the situations with the Dead Sea and the Mediterranean. But only God can deliver "living waters."
Look at this:
http://www.preteristarchive.bravepages.com/PartialPreterism/demar-gary_pp_01.html
In DeMar's I read that the earliest Christian writers applied Zech14:4 to the work of Christ in his day.
Also there is commentary from Matthew Henry:
"The partition-wall between Jew and Gentiles shall be taken away. The mountains about Jerusalem, and particularly this, signified it to be an enclosure, and that it stood in the way of those who would approach to it. Between the Gentiles and Jerusalem this mountain of Bether, of division, stood, Cant. ii. 17. But by the destruction of Jerusalem this mountain shall be made to cleave in the midst, and so the Jewish pale shall be taken down, and the church laid in common with the Gentiles, who were made one with the Jews by the breaking down of this middle wall of partition, Eph. ii. 14.8"
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"We must choose between the Garden-City of God and the wilderness-ruins of man; between Jerusalem the Garden and Babylon the Machine." -Kevin Craig
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BORN AGAIN
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"living waters" means natural spring water, or "water which gushed forth from the ground" without making a well.
In this case, once the Prince Jesus sets down on the mount of Olives and has entered by the eastern gate, living water will pour from the threshold area of the house of the LORD, and some will go by way of Jericho to the Dead Sea and it shall be healed, and the other to the Mediterranean Sea which since the 1971 Aswan High Dam has become severely depleted.
There used to be a huge post-Summer bloom off the coast of the Nile floodplain, but that is all gone and only a Winter bloom remains, which is however mostly caused by a restir of old nutrients by the Winter storms on the Med Sea rather than new nutriets pouring out of the Nile. Now all the nutrients get stuck behind the 1971 Aswan High dam, and so the Med Sea now also needs to be healed.
BORN AGAIN
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edenwill
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posted
That was an interesting read. Now I see where the subject of healing the Dead Sea and the Mediterranean comes in. "living waters shall go out from Jerusalem;"
Does "living waters" ever mean H2O in Scripture?
http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/words/l/1144123628-6289.html
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"We must choose between the Garden-City of God and the wilderness-ruins of man; between Jerusalem the Garden and Babylon the Machine." -Kevin Craig
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edenwill
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Hi BORN AGAIN, I see this verse and compare it to Zech.14:4. I think that I see 'hyperbolic' language used in Zechariah and in Micah and many other places in Scripture.
Micah 1:3 For, behold, the LORD cometh forth out of his place, and will come down, and tread upon the high places of the earth.
Micah 1:4 And the mountains shall be molten under him, and the valleys shall be cleft, as wax before the fire, [and] as the waters [that are] poured down a steep place.
While I am sure that the prophecy of Micah was fulfilled, I am not very sure of those mountains being melted.
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BORN AGAIN
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hello, edenwill, after reading The Parousia by Stuart, I became what apparently was called a full preterist.
But while I am confident that more happened in 70 A.D. than most Christians realize, I realized at a later point that the mountain of Olives had not split into two halves yet, and the Dead Sea had not yet been healed, and the Mediterranean Sea has not yet been healed.
So there must be a Second Coming which is still ahead of us. So I'm kind of a half-preterist and a half-futurist Christian, but I spend most of my study time thinking about the futurist-Chrisitan half since it's kind of hard to determine what exactly happened back there in 70 A.D., but I can discern perhaps what is yet going to happen in the future.
Full preterism cannot be right because the mount of Olives is not split in half yet.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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edenwill
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
But is all what Jesus said would happen to Israel-Judah a microcosm acted out by God and the tribe of Israel to show what the macrocosm Christian versus not-Christian will look like in the last days of modern time?}
I enjoyed reading the post.
What was the greatest event in history? I say that it was the coming of New Jerusalem to earth upon the destruction of the Old Jerusalem, A.D.70. That is the ultimate event. Our day cannot compare with that!
Of course everyone can sense the coming judgment but it is not the destruction of the Old Covenant world.
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"We must choose between the Garden-City of God and the wilderness-ruins of man; between Jerusalem the Garden and Babylon the Machine." -Kevin Craig
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BORN AGAIN
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Dear brother edenwill, I know what you are saying. I have pointed the following out before
(note: my comments are added at the end of some scripture verses)
Matthew 24
1And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. {note: this happened in 70 A.D.)
3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
{note: if I’m not mistaken, this word world is aion, which means “age” or “eon”’; so the question was, “the end of the aion or age).
4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
{note: is this happening in the USA and EU and Africa and Asia today? I don’t think so; but it apparently was happening in Israel between 30 A.D. and 70 A.D., which Josephus (I think) wrote was a horrible period, like today’s Iraq Sunni/Shiite slaughter, with false Christs like mahdis, inbetween 33 A.D. and 70 A.D.
Christ had been rejected and now their condition would be worse than ever (more devils entered after it had been cleaned by Jesus around 26 A.D.-30 A.D.)
6And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
{note: this happened in the 60s A.D. but is also happening in our time; what happened to Israel may have been the microcosm model God of Israel used to show what the macrocosm model will look like also in the last day}
7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
{note: this could apply to our time in the USA and EU and Africa and Asia; bird flu and more wars and threats of war than at any time since 1945 A.D.
8All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and they shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
{note: Islam does kill our Christian brothers and sisters in our day}
10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
{note: where in today’s USA and EU, for instance, are false prophets rising? And deceive many from what? From the basics of salvation or from rewards?}
12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
{note: the love of many Christians shall wax cold or shall the love of many people on earth wax cold?}
13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
{note: now that is an interesting one. Assuming that verse 14 is placed on purpose behind verses 1-13, does that mean that verse 14 happens after verses 1-13?
If so, then all those things of Matthew 24:1-13 must have happened first and then began the preaching of the gospel of the kingdom to all nations in Matthew 24:14 after 70 A.D., which means that Matthew 24:1-13 referred to what happened in Israel-Judah between 30 A.D. and 70 A.D.}
15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso reads, let him understand:)
{note: this is where it becomes more complicated to maintain that these scriptures have our modern time in mind. For one thing, I do not live in Israel-Judah, so I will not see the abomination of desolation stand in the holy place, spoken of by Daniel.
And in 70 A.D., the Roman military standard of the Roman eagle was already set up in the holy place. The Romans had total access after the defeat of Jerusalem.}
16Then let them who is in Judah flee into the mountains:
{note: Jesus was speaking to the Israelite Jews in Judah, and Jesus specifically says that let them who is in Judah flee to the mountains.
Ladies and gentlemen, does that mean that those who do not live in Judah in modern time have to flee to the mountains? And what if s/he lives in flat Kansas or flat Netherlands or the flat Euroasian grass steppes? To which mountains should they flee?
But if we believe that what happened in Israel-Ephraim and in Israel-Judah was a microcosm display of what will happen in macrocosm in the end of the whole earth, it could still work? But Jesus is definitely addressing the Jews in Israel-Judah around 30 A.D., and telling them to flee.
And indeed, the Christians who had believed Jesus fled to Pella on the east side of the Jordan in the interval when between when Vespasian broke the his siege of Jerusalem to return hastily to Rome to make Vespasian’s emperorship sure, until Vespasian’s son Titus finished the job. In that interval, Christians already were able to flee on the basis of these words of Jesus.
So are they a microcosm of what will happen to us in macrocosm? Could be.
17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give **** in those days!
20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
{note: oh, not on the Sabbath day}
21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
{note: the 66 A.D. to 70 A.D. was a period of great tribulation for Israel-Judah, worse than anything that had happened since the inception of the tribe of Jacob-Israel-Judah; the Jacob-Israel-Ephraim part had already been mixed in the nations since 721 B.C. and are still mixed among the nations.
And in 70 A.D., about 70,000 surviving Israelite Jews were sold into the nations as slaves, so that Israel-Judah joined Israel-Ephraim among the nations, where they still are in 2006 A.D., but probably soon they will come out from among us.}
22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
{note: in the interval of 30 A.D. to 70 A.D., the elect in Israel-Judah were those who believed that Jesus was the Son of God and that the LORD YHWH had raised Jesus from the dead on the third day.
These were the elect and their lot in unbelieving Israel-Judah between 30 A.D. and 70 A.D. must have been very dangerous; except those days be shortened by 70 A.D., no elect would have survived.}
23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
{note: if all of this is so near in the USA and in the EU, who are these people in our society today? Should we not be able to identify some of the false Christs who show great signs and wonders so that they almost even deceive the elect of Jesus? Identify me some of them in our society, would someone who believes this is for our time?}
25Behold, I have told you before.
26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
{note: did this sign of the Son of man already appear in heaven iin 70 A.D.? Was there a first ingathering of the elect of Christ from Old National Israel who had answered the call to repent and had said that Jesus was the Son of God of Israel who had raised from the dead on the third day.
Was there an ingathering already of those first elect? Doesn’t the Bible say that Jesus took captivity captive and bore gifts with Him when He ascended up to heaven after His resurrection?
But is all what Jesus said would happen to Israel-Judah a microcosm acted out by God and the tribe of Israel to show what the macrocosm Christian versus not-Christian will look like in the last days of modern time?}
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
{note: Jesus was telling His disciples in Israel-Judah to watch for those signs and then the end of Old National Israel-Judah would be near, just like seeing the fig tree bud in 30 A.D. with Jesus’s appearance and after that it is near, even at the door, in 70 A.D.}
34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
{note: this was clearly directed at the Jews listening to Jesus in Israel-Judah around 30 A.D. Does that microcosmic statement by Jesus also referr to a macrocosmic statement for modern time? And if so, when does or did that generation start? With the rebirth of Israel as a nation in 1948? Time is running out for that theory.}
But forgive me, this is way too long; I have been amusing myself.
Bless the LORD YHWH God Elohim of Israel.
BORN AGAIN in the USA by the of Yeshua-Jesus
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edenwill
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by PetriFB:
One important mark, which must fulfil before the public coming of Jesus, is, that the gospel will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations.
- (Matt 24:14) And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
Hi Finland,
Mar 13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.
Luke 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute [you], delivering [you] up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Hmm. Why would the disciples be hated of all nations for preaching the gospel if the preaching of the gospel would be accomplished in some far off time?
Could it be that the gospel was preached in the whole world? Jesus was speaking to his disciples right? They are gone right? Sooo? They must have 'preached the gospel to the whole world'!
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"We must choose between the Garden-City of God and the wilderness-ruins of man; between Jerusalem the Garden and Babylon the Machine." -Kevin Craig
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BORN AGAIN
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dear brother PetriFB, from Finland, I believe, you write quote:
They indicate, that the fulfilment of this mark is much closer than for example 100 years ago. More information behind the link!
I'm just going to tease you for a moment. Does one have to look behind the link to understand that we are now closer to this mark than 100 years ago? ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
My love to the brethren in Finland. ![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif)
BORN AGAIN in the USA
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PetriFB
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posted
http://koti.phnet.fi/elohim/Lastdays2]
One important mark, which must fulfil before the public coming of Jesus, is, that the gospel will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations. The fulfilment of this important mark doesn’t so mean, that all nations or ethnic groups would receive salvation, but that they could hear a testimony of the gospel of Christ. Has also been presented, that with the matter is connected a testimony of Christ’s dominance and power in that way, that the reality of his kingdom becomes visible; like a little in the same way as also took place during the early church, 2000 years ago:
- (Matt 24:14) And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
As far is then concerned fulfilment of this mark, so being connected with it we can make a couple of interesting observations. They indicate, that the fulfilment of this mark is much closer than for example 100 years ago:
More information behind the link!
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