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Posted by Bob10 (Member # 3103) on :
 
One of the great misunderstandings in Paul's writings revolves around what he meant by the expression under the law.


Only Paul uses the phrase under the law, and he only uses it in Romans, I Corinthians, and Galatians, so it should not be too hard to study. Unfortunately, none of the New Testament writers anticipated our difficulties in understanding what they wrote. They do not always use words with the precision we would like, and the meaning of a phrase can often turn on the idea being developed by the writer at the time. In other words, it may depend on the context.

There are also idioms to deal with. Webster's Dictionary, by Random House, defines an idiom as "an expression whose meaning is not predictable from the usual grammatical rules of a language or from the usual meanings of its constituent elements, as 'kick the bucket' mean 'to die."'

"Under the law" is a little closer to its underlying meaning than is the phrase "kick the bucket," but it is still an expression that carries meaning beyond the three words found in your Bible. Paul's style is very elliptical - that is, economical in expression or use of words. He is given to shortcuts and expressions that carry more meaning than is at first apparent.


http://www.abcog.org/lesson9.htm

http://www.abcog.org/lesson8.htm

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Posted by Kindgo (Member # 2) on :
 
Bob is a Seventh Day Adventist, he believes in keeping the laws. Makes what Jesus did on the cross for us worthless.


The Seventh Day Adventist Church, formed in 1860, was one of two groups that were an offshoot of the Millerite movement earlier in the 19th century. The lead prophetess of this group, Ellen G. White was not only given this title during her lifetime, but her teachings are held with authority today.

The Adventists adopted many doctrines of the Jehovah's Witnesses (the other Millerite offshoot) such as soul sleep, annihilation, the identity of Christ, and the concept of the "remnant church", outside of which there is no salvation. Like the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Adventists have also written their own bible, the Clear Word Edition. No copies of this are available online.

What makes Seventh Day Adventists unique is their adoption of Mrs. White's doctrine of Investigative Judgment which states that on October 22, 1844, Jesus arose to the holy of holies to begin a period of investigative judgment on the earth - ending with the battle of Armageddon.

Today, Adventists number in the millions and the denomination is known as one of the most legalistic around. They teach that Sunday Worship is the mark of the beast from the book of Revelation and that there is no salvation outside of their organization, doctrines and rituals.
 

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Posted by Thunderz7 (Member # 31) on :
 
I went to a couple of the heresy hunter sites and found their accusations of the 7th day folks and the Clear Word Bible. (apologeticsindex & inplainsight)

Then I found a couple of 7th day sites that deny the Clear Word Bible as official version.

I am not 7th day, and have often found lies on these heresy hunter sites;
so maybe if Bob10 is 7th day, he can clear this up for us.

T7
 

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Posted by Kindgo (Member # 2) on :
 
Thats fine but until then, this is the teacher, Ron Dart, from Bob's links.


Ron Dart the "church of God" are seventh day Adventists. They teach the two house theory, Hebrew roots, they believe they are the lost celtic tribes of Israel and that the Kings of England, Scotland are Kings of Israel..They teach unclean and clean food to eat per OT law's to Israel and covenant theology..

The sda constitution

2.1.9 We believe in the ordinance of water baptism by immersion following repentance. Through the laying on of hands, with prayer, the believer receives the Holy Spirit and becomes a part of the spiritual body of Jesus Christ.

2.1.5 We believe that sin is the transgression of the law. The law is spiritual, perfect, holy, just and good. The law defines God's love and is based upon the two great principles of love toward God and love toward neighbor, and is immutable and binding. The Ten Commandments are the ten points of God's law of love. We believe that breaking any one point of the law brings upon a person the penalty of sin. We believe that this fundamental spiritual law reveals the only way to true life and the only possible way of happiness, peace and joy. All unhappiness, misery, anguish and woe have come from transgressing God's law.

http://www.thejournal.org/studylibra.../jsceptre.html

http://www.thejournal.org/archives/cgtimln3.html

http://www.thejournal.org/sept97.html

http://www.british-israel.ca/

http://www.thejournal.org/refdesk/links/coglinks.html
 

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Posted by Bob10 (Member # 3103) on :
 

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Bob.......believes in keeping the laws.

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2.1.5 We believe that sin is the transgression of the law.

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The law is spiritual, perfect, holy, just and good.

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Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
Yes David and there are also Adventists that are not 7th day. We have at least two members that I can think of that are long time members and are adventists, but not 7th day.

There are many things about 7th Day Adventism that I do not agree with, particularly in regard to their views on prophesy,but also some other things. But I want to say this. Grace is not opposite of Law.

Those who were in the past under the Law were under it with Grace. When Grace was manifest in the Body and life of Jesus it was no more present in the written Law, but the law was written on our hearts...

We are free of the curse of the Law. The curse of the Law damned those who did not obey it. If we be Christ's and HE be in us then there is no condemnation for those who walk in the Spirit. But you can bet your bottom dollar that Christ is not disobeying the Law! Christ is the very spirit of the Law and HIS words are written on the tablets of our heart and we are circumcised in the heart! We do not obey to be saved; but we surely do obey because we are saved and this life we live is not our life and we are not living it but Christ is living in us and Christ was obedient unto death!

We are not under the schoolmaster of the Law. We now have the HOLY Spirit living in us and is our teacher.

But if Christ has freed us from the curse of the law, has he not also freed us to obey the law in faith? Is there now some law that says I cannot observe the sabbath day Saturday in the very same ways that Jesus did?

Paul did not speak against Peter and John at the Jerusalem Council when they said that the Gentiles should keep themselves from meat offered to idols and things strangled.

Jesus is our Sabbath rest. Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath, and we are not in need of a physical day of rest for we do rest in Christ every day, and we are seated with HIM now in the heavenlies and not creatures of this earth....

Hebrews 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

but that does not mean that God has changed the Sabbath day to Sunday. It also does not been that it is not a HOLY day in the earth.

Saturday is the 7th Day of the week and it has always been the 7th day and it remains an earthly day of rest for them that are earthy.

Hebrews 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

Hebrews 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

We are heavenly, but still we walk in the earth and we should not be claiming that God changed the Sabbath day in the earth. He did not.

For the church He took us heavenly and became our life and our Sabbath rest. That is not changed by my knowing that Saturday is the Sabbath day of GOD and is still a day of rest for those who have not entered HIS rest.

Nor does it make it a sin for me to join in fellowship on Sunday with my fellow believers if I so choose.

Lots of people choose to worship corporately on Saturday. The same blood that freed us to worship corporately on Sunday, has also freed us to worship corporately on Saturday if we so chose!

And to the credit of the 7th day adventists... if you (not you personally - I speak of any man) want to force me to worship on Sunday and I am at liberty by the blood to worship on Saturday if I choose... then what you do is in the spirit of anti christ and does also deny the blood!

Romans 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord’s.

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That's all fine and good sis, but a heresy arises when one claims that lawfulness is salvation. Actually, the opposite is claimed: "You will not live forever unless you obey the law." Such a thing seeks to make heretics out of saints.

Aaron

What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

P.S.

Of course Jesus obeyed the Law. He was born under the Law. And the sacrifice for sin had not been made.

It was never God's intent to give the law to men. His original intent was to make the Israelites royal priests and kings: son's of God. It was only after the people refused to enter into the presence of God and sent Moses in their stead did God give the people the law.

Law was given to preserve the people from which the Righteous Seed would come: Jesus Christ. The enemy, the accuser, sought to be both prosecutor and punisher for those under sin. As all were under sin his scope of power included the entire human race. And since the wages of sin is death the enemy had power to kill all of mankind.

The law of God put limits on the enemy's power to that through the remnant the Seed could emerge. Distinct consequences were applied to lawless deeds and animal sacrifices were mandated until..."until the Seed should come to whom the promise was made." That Seed has come: Jesus Christ...not simply "Jesus" but "Jesus Christ" for He was not complete until He died on the cross. All saints are of the Seed and we are justified by Him.
 

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Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :
 

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That's all fine and good sis, but a heresy arises when one claims that lawfulness is salvation. Actually, the opposite is claimed: "You will not live forever unless you obey the law." Such a thing seeks to make heretics out of saints.

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Of course Jesus obeyed the Law. He was born under the Law. And the sacrifice for sin had not been made.

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It was never God's intent to give the law to men. His original intent was to make the Israelites royal priests and kings: son's of God. It was only after the people refused to enter into the presence of God and sent Moses in their stead did God give the people the law.

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Law was given to preserve the people from which the Righteous Seed would come: Jesus Christ. The enemy, the accuser, sought to be both prosecutor and punisher for those under sin. As all were under sin his scope of power included the entire human race. And since the wages of sin is death the enemy had power to kill all of mankind.

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The law of God put limits on the enemy's power to that through the remnant the Seed could emerge. Distinct consequences were applied to lawless deeds and animal sacrifices were mandated until..."until the Seed should come to whom the promise was made." That Seed has come: Jesus Christ...not simply "Jesus" but "Jesus Christ" for He was not complete until He died on the cross. All saints are of the Seed and we are justified by Him.

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Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
[QB]
but the INTENT of the law was to have the people know God and that HE is I AM...

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Originally posted by David:
Some Seventh-day Adventists believe identically to orthodox Christians, other than believing that worship should be held on Saturday and that the Saturday Sabbath should still be observed. If these are the only differences, then yes, a person could be a Seventh-day Adventist and still be a true believer in the Lord Jesus Christ.

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Linda:
"But if Christ has freed us from the curse of the law, has he not also freed us to obey the law in faith? Is there now some law that says I cannot observe the sabbath day Saturday in the very same ways that Jesus did? "

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Where did I say that one could not?

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You didnt!!!!

Sorry !! I did not intend to imply you did. I was emphasizing, because that is where folks take this discussion.

I agreed with your post.

I wanted to speak to the idea that Jesus destroyed rather than fulfilled the Law, which is often where this particular discussion goes.

I should have drawn a ::::::::::::::::::::::::::

To separate my comment TO you (which was agreement that there seem to be degrees of thought on this among the adventists) and the rest of my post which was my genral thoughts on the subject.
 

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Posted by David (Member # 1) on :
 
Sorry, just wondered how I was implying that.





 

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Posted by David (Member # 1) on :
 
The purpose of the Law is to stop the sinner’s mouth of justification.

The Law tells him what sin is (see 1 John 3:4) and stops him proclaiming his own goodness. Its intent is to drive him to the cross. John Wesley said, “The first use of [the Law], without question, is to convince the world of sin. By this is the sinner discovered to himself. All his fig-leaves are torn away, and he sees that he is ‘wretched and poor and miserable, blind and naked.’ The Law flashes conviction on every side. He feels himself a mere sinner. He has nothing to pay. His ‘mouth is stopped’ and he stands ‘guilty before God.’”

“Ask Paul why [the Law] was given. Here is his answer, ‘That every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God’ (Romans 3:19). The Law stops every man’s mouth. I can always tell a man who is near the kingdom of God; his mouth is stopped. This, then, is why God gives us the Law—to show us ourselves in our true colors.” D. L. Moody


 

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Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :
 
Good Morning Aaron: I have some questions here:

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But the law produces slaves.

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God wanted sons. Sons cannot be made through the law.

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Only the presence of God can change a man into a son of God. Ultimately it is His very presence, not edicts about Him, that changes men.

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And this is what God intended to do with the Israelites at the mountain. But the men were afraid and sent Moses in their stead. Because they would not come into God's presence the Law was given.

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Now, a father does not require the law to raise sons. A father raises his own sons.

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Also, the law produces slaves, not sons. No father would want His sons to become slaves. Since the people refused to be in His presence the law was then required to preserve them. If they had come into His presence the Law would not have been necessary because God's intent for man would have been fulfilled: He wanted sons. And He would have them from men .

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God's intent for the Israelites: "'And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel."

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The reality: "For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, you have been rebellious against the LORD..."

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Our reality in Christ: "But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people.."

and

"To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, and has made us kings and priests..."

This is why the law is anathema to the Christian life...any bit of it. Once we are a son the law has no use for us. It still has a use, but not son-ward...only for slaves.

Bless you,
Aaron

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But the law produces slaves.

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And this is what God intended to do with the Israelites at the mountain. But the men were afraid and sent Moses in their stead. Because they would not come into God's presence the Law was given.

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Now, a father does not require the law to raise sons. A father raises his own sons.

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You reference that the law is written on our hearts.
The law becomes our nature. But not the law the produces slaves...the Law of the Spirit of God.

You know, I have more thoughts but I find them difficult to convey. First I want to thank you, sis, for your reply. It's caused me to go deeper into my study of this.

Here are a few of my thoughts:
1) We know that Jesus Christ is the completion of the law. Are we not also? If we are "in Him" and "His Body" it would seem that we are. Some words come to mind: "sons", "co-heirs", "priests".

2) If we are the completion of the law in Christ do we then not function as the law functions? Also, is the church "Christ among men"? And if she is so...

3) What is the distinction between the "spirit of the law" and the "Law of the Spirit of life in Christ"?

Last comment: If Christ's death came before the law, and His subsequent redemption of man, then would the law have been given? I think not.

I'm afraid to say more lest I find this thread moved to the "Heresy" forum.

I appreciate your input Linda.

Bless you,
Aaron
 

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Posted by Aaron (Member # 3761) on :
 
Another thought:

It is hard for us to imagine a world without the law. Or even a people without access to the law. Gentiles did not have the law of Moses yet their consciences confirmed a law apart from the Mosaic law.

So I wonder: was the Gentile's law of less effect than the Mosaic law? Or, did it possess the same glory as the law received on Sinai? Was this gentile "schoolmaster" of equal glory to the Mosaic one?

"for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them..."
 

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Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 

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If Christ's death came before the law, and His subsequent redemption of man, then would the law have been given? I think not.

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The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. (KJV)


Psalms 19:
7 Yahweh's law is perfect, restoring the soul. Yahweh's testimony is sure, making wise the simple.

8 Yahweh's precepts are right, rejoicing the heart. Yahweh's commandment is pure, enlightening the eyes.

9 The fear of Yahweh is clean, enduring forever. Yahweh's ordinances are true, and righteous altogether.

10 More to be desired are they than gold, yes, than much fine gold; sweeter also than honey and the extract of the honeycomb.

11 Moreover by them is your servant warned. In keeping them there is great reward.

12 Who can discern his errors? Forgive me from hidden errors.

13 Keep back your servant also from presumptuous sins. Let them not have dominion over me. Then I will be upright. I will be blameless and innocent of great transgression.

14 Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in your sight, Yahweh, my rock, and my redeemer.


I am not a Seventh Day Adventist, but when it come to the Law of Yahweh there is much misunderstanding. And all will answer for how they treat IT!

Yeshua said: "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 5:17-19).

The Old and the New Testaments together form one whole.

Do I keep the Law perfectly? Not hardly! But all that is in me desires to keep it because I know it pleases my Heavenly father.

Is it wrong to have Church meetings on Sunday, I do not think so, but I know positively it is wrong to teach anyone that the Sabbath has been changed to Sunday.

The Sabbath is now and always will be on the Seventh Day!

The only thing changed with the Law is that part that is ordinances that demand the slaying of animals blood, because Yeshua Blood has now been shed, to which the blood of the animals pointed.

Which of these Laws may the child of Yahweh disregard as unimportant?

1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain: for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it.

5. Honor thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.

6. Thou shalt not kill.

7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.

8. Thou shalt not steal.

9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his *** , nor any thing that is thy neighbor's.

I am only going to touch on the 4th commandment, because I believe it is the most misunderstood.

Yeshua kept all the Law Perfectly, that includes the Sabbath . Many even in His day misunderstood, it is not wrong to do good on the Sabbath, such as healing the sick.

All the Law is summed up in the 2 Commandment...

Love Yahweh with all your heart, mind, body, soul and spirit and Love your neighbor as yourself!

The Covenant made with us today is that of a new heart, the removal of the heart of stone, symbolized by the broken tablets of stone and replaced with a heart of flesh, symbolized by the baptism of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost.
 

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Posted by Aaron (Member # 3761) on :
 
Those poor gentile converts who never heard of the Mosaic law. By your assertion their Christian walk was hobbled. I wonder, were they taught to follow the law before or after they became sons of the Living God?

I know what the "answer" is but I'm searching for the truth.

You said: "The Old and the New Testaments together form one whole."

One whole what? And if it's an important "whole" then what of the early converts who had neither? Or, did they have something else that was equally or more important? What do the Testaments tell us is required to be a son of God?

Aaron
 

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Posted by Thunderz7 (Member # 31) on :
 
Bob10 didn't answer about the Clear Word Bible and can't answer now;
and like Kindgo I find nowhere to read it on the net.
So do we know of drastic changes it makes from the more standard versions?

T7
 

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Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 

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Those poor gentile converts who never heard of the Mosaic law. By your assertion their Christian walk was hobbled. I wonder, were they taught to follow the law before or after they became sons of the Living God?

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Originally posted by becauseHElives:
The foundation of every Christian religion is the Ten Commandments.

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Originally posted by yahsway:
Surely they did have the Old for it is the testimony of the One to come, right?

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it was not written in the OT that the nations would be blessed through their fall.

in the letters written after their fall, rejection, and subswequent blindness, recorded in Acts 28.28, brings us the warnings about philosophies, which were already at work, for the aposlte chosen to reveal that secret had been hid in God and only made known after Acts 28.28

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it was not written in the OT that the nations would be blessed through their fall.

But what was never made known, i.e. the secret 'hid in God' and revealed after Acts 28.28, was that the nations would be blessed through their fall:

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only made known after Acts 28.28

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Originally posted by becauseHElives:
That God would send a Messiah to save His people Israel was not a mystery. Neither was it a mystery that Gentiles would be saved . For example, [Isa 42:6] ‘I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;’ . It was even revealed that the Messiah would be a suffering servant in Isaiah 53.

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Originally posted by becauseHElives:
Isa 42:6] ‘I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; [/b]

It was hidden in the Old Covenant what Yahweh was going to do, but only from the view point mankind could not conceive what Yahweh was going to do.

There is nothing in the New Covenant that was not spoken by the prophets in the Old Covenant

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That is the mystery hidden from past ages -- an entirely new organism with the Living Lord Jesus as the head, composed of diverse members each indwelt by the Spirit of Christ.

The key to this incredible work of redemption -- the event that opened the windows of Heaven and enabled the outpouring of God’s grace upon the human race -- is the cross.

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Originally posted by becauseHElives:
[Isa 42:6] ‘I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;’

It was hidden in the Old Covenant what Yahweh was going to do, but only from the view point mankind could not conceive what Yahweh was going to do.

There is nothing in the New Covenant that was not spoken by the prophets in the Old Covenant.

The mystery that Paul was addressing is not as you suppose, that Yahweh caused Paul or any one else to forget about the Nation Israel, but the mystery/secret is that Yeshua would come and be one in those that would give themselves to Him. Obey His Commandments.

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Perhaps you are correct, but I must stick with Scripture on this, at least the way I read it, when the apostle declares he is making known a secret that was not revealed, and this secret pertains to a called out company who was chosen from before the foundation of the world, whose blessings are all spiritual and in the heavenly places, I just gotta go with that. I can't in any way find the covenants of Israel being given to anyone else, and as far as the Hebrew tribes being a blessing to the nations, I can only surmise with Paul, that he is given this revelation specifically to those called the Uncircumsion by the Circumcision

It is to this church we find given the warning that we can be found ashamed by not rightly dividing the word of truth, that in this newly revealed and created company are they who were sent the salvation of God. sent, an sent one, (apostelo) with a specific message to a specific people for His specific purpose, just as all the sent ones God had sent, but this secret was hid in God, and 'from ages and from generations', having been chosen and called, naming this church His body, the fulness of Him that filleth all in all. Please read the first two chapters of the first letter Paul wrote after that third and final, most dreadful quote of Is6.9.

There is nothing similar regarding the church created after Israel's judicial blindness and subsequent dismissal of themselves. Paul writes of it extensively in several of the latter chapters of the last book written during the Acts, being Romans.

I would love it very much if you, or anyone really, could put together the similarities of the churches (plural) preceeding the revelation of the mystery, where church is never plural, but one, the one body, with Christ as the Head. Not the King of the church, but the King of the Jews.

I have only found a few similarities, we all fall under the sin of Adam, we all are in need of a Saviour, and we all are called into an inheritance not of our chosing, but of God's. Some chosen since the foundation of the world, some chosen before. some chosen for an earthly inheritance, some for one far above all heavens of heavens.

let me ask you a question in like turn.

can you quote me where the church of the present period is given the hope of their callig? in other words, what is the hope of your calling? where are the verses and who do they address exactly? I think that would be a good study for us all.
 

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Posted by David (Member # 1) on :
 
Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. 5For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth? This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you. A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be. And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased. I would they were even cut off which trouble you.

For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. - Galatians 5:1-18


We should always pattern our life exclusively by the standards of Jesus Christ. Submiting ourself to His yoke, and His alone; and always be careful never to place a yoke on others that is not of Jesus Christ. It is all about Jesus and not about man’s rules. We can know all there is about theology and still be told, depart from me I knew you not. Get to know the one that will stand with you and pay your sin dept on judgement day. My calling is to know Him. To know Jesus Christ.


 

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Posted by David (Member # 1) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by blackdiamond:
I'm a new member and have not read everything posted on this thread/topic, but I did note that there was some discussion/questions for Seventh-day Adventists and I am planning to start a thread where we can discuss some of the unique beliefs that I have. Also, I will start by posting a little information about The Clear Word as I noted some interest above. I am happy to try and answer any questions and always try to provide a solid response. Just an FYI advertisement.

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We do not teach nor do we let others teach the doctrine of the Seventh-day Adventists on this message board. You will need to do that on another message board. You are more then welcome to stay on the message board, but you may not teach the doctgrine of the Seventh-day Adventists. It will only get you banned. We are no longer under the law as Jesus Christ came to set us free. This is not up for debate.

The Holy Bible, King James Version

1Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. 2Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. 5For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. 7Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth? 8This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you. 9A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. 10I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be. 11And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased. 12I would they were even cut off which trouble you.
13For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. 14For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Galatians 5:1 through Galatians 5:14 (KJV)
 

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Posted by blackdiamond (Member # 5707) on :
 
It appears that I totally misjudged this board. It appeared that it supported open discussion.

So can I assume that if I post a belief that you consider to have SDA roots I will get banned?

Is is acceptable for me to ask you to prove some of your beliefs that I have never figured how someone could reach that conclusion or do you prefer to not have your beliefs challenged? My whole point for joining the online boards is to have people help me "test" my beliefs.

It is evident that there are several misconceptions of the SDA faith. My intent was never to "teach" SDA doctrine, but rather to discuss some of the differences that were specifically lised early in this thread.

May I ask what beliefs are acceptable to profess on this board?
 

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Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 

quote:

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I would love it very much if you, or anyone really, could put together the similarities of the churches (plural) proceeding the revelation of the mystery, where church is never plural, but one, the one body, with Christ as the Head. Not the King of the church, but the King of the Jews.

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quote:

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Originally posted by blackdiamond:
So can I assume that if I post a belief that you consider to have SDA roots I will get banned?

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quote:

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Originally posted by David:
You can post here asking others what they believe, but you are not welcome to teach SDA on this message board. This message board is for teaching the truths of God's word, not for trying to put people back under the law.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Thunderz7:
Bob10 didn't answer about the Clear Word Bible and can't answer now;
and like Kindgo I find nowhere to read it on the net.
So do we know of drastic changes it makes from the more standard versions?

T7

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quote:

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Originally posted by Thunderz7:


It does seem this board was more open to different opinions at times, but at present it seems just an accusation by a member "in the click" can get one banned.

be careful
T7

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quote:

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Originally posted by Thunderz7:
thanks for the info blackdiamond

I have a problem with the "click to" sites that condemn everyone not exactly like them, and claim Clear Word is "the SDA Bible" when the SDA sites say Clear Word is not an official version.
Your info seems to be on target.

It does seem this board was more open to different opinions at times, but at present it seems just an accusation by a member "in the click" can get one banned.

be careful
T7

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quote:

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Originally posted by becauseHElives:

quote:

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I would love it very much if you, or anyone really, could put together the similarities of the churches (plural) proceeding the revelation of the mystery, where church is never plural, but one, the one body, with Christ as the Head. Not the King of the church, but the King of the Jews.

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The book of Revelation refers to Yeshua as King of Kings and Lord of Lords

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quote:

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I'm still trying to determine if there is any benefit for anyone if I continue to be involved in this board. If people are not willing to honestly look at someones beliefs

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quote:

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Originally posted by epouraniois:
I havn't been here very long, but from what I perceive, the people here aren't very concerned with the belief systems of man, but are more concerned, and rightly so IMO, with what the Bible actually says, irregardless of what club a person might enjoin themselves to.

so, Biblically, on what authority does any non Jew take the law unto themselves? and even more pointedly, only those parts that suit them? for example, according to the law that some wish to 'burden' themselves with, I should expect that we should be reading weekly, if not daily, about people being stoned to death for violations of the Hebrew law.

Have you considered what the Bible actually says:

They had a meeting in the synogague at Jerusalem about this very subject, and the conclusion was this:

Act 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
Act 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well, Fare ye well.

four things, count them, four necessary things that seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to them.

Not one of them mentions the Hebrew Sabbath commandments.

And again, it is written:

Act 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

I would think that if one is truly interested in what the Bible actually says, taking all of the testimony it brings, then this is a great place to broaden ones knolwedge and acknolwedgment of the Lord. But it might not be so great if one only wishes to consume their own beliefs irregardless of all that the Bible has to say on any subject, for the people here do seem to be rather interested in the larger view, not satisfied with any certain denomination, from which comes the word division.

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Very well said.


 

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Posted by blackdiamond (Member # 5707) on :
 
It is interesting that you are choosing to discount all of my beliefs simply because you "think" you understand my belief about how the law and grace work together. I don't remember even bringing up the subject. But thanks for being objective and not projecting your idea of my beliefs on me.

I don't have time to read every word in your posts, as I am at work, but it looks like the majority of what you are referring to is what is called the Ceremonial Law, which is completely different from the Moral Law (10 Commandments). The ceremonial law pointed to Christ's sacrifice and no longer has any use or value, but the moral law does still apply. Why is it that generally everyone agrees with all of the commandments with the exception of the Sabbath (7th day) commandment? Ironically, the Sabbath is the only "commandment" that very directly shows up prior to Exodus 20 as it is the conclusion to Creation.
 

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Posted by epouraniois (Member # 5187) on :
 
in case I was not clear before, allow me to more straightforwardly state that I do not care what personal beliefs one has, what I care about is whether or not one is able to acknowledge all that the Bible has to say, permitting the Lord to direct His paths, and acknowledge those things therewith written therein.

you are welcome to believe whatever you want. if it fails to embrace all that is written, I shall point out even this to you, or to anybody, and would hope that everyone would do me the same favor.

cerimonial/moral,

It seems to me you are totally missing the point of the meeting that called the leaders of the day together, there at the synagogue at Jerusalem, for it was exactly about the sabbath and the laws of Moses that they wanted the gentiles to come under:

Act 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.


Of all laws/any laws, that is whatis written, they weren't burndened with any other law from any other catagory of law which were Hebrew in origin and charactor, period.

Act 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
Act 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well, Fare ye well.
Act 15:30 So when they were dismissed


So maybe you think the Holy Spirit was wrong, but surely not???

ironically too, it is the first one the Lord set aside, and the first one which the Pharasees sought to murder Him for setting aside.

after even those were dismissedk, we are told how the church is to be:

Phi 2:4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.

Col 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
Col 2:7 Rooted and built up in him, and established in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.
Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross

Col 3:13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
Col 3:14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.
Col 3:15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.

and you know, addressing everyone, including self here, that God did not write this book of letters that we might have beliefs and opinions, it is God's interpretation. We can either acknowledge what is written in it's intirety, or we can for beliefs and deny some of what is written. It is the latter that has been manipulated by the enemy for the cause if division, for the cause of not setting Christ on His rightful place far above all. so if any think there is something that he must do, such as the Jewish sabbath keeping law, then that must be written that gentiles must keep portions of the law, but, alas, it is not, and was never written to anyone but the Hebrew nation.

Isn't't just like mankind? Taking what belongs to someone else and pretending it was given to them/us. We are no better than the Hebrews. They did it. We can see the same thing today too. If it is not written that gentiles should take on the Hewbrew law(s), then it is adding to the word of God.

And what about you 7th dayers not stoning one another to death? Isn't that the penalty for violating the sabbath?

ever use the telephone on the sabbath, drive te car, walk across the street, buy anything, read the paper. the penalty is stoning to death.
 

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Posted by epouraniois (Member # 5187) on :
 
ps, law and grace do not, i repeat, do not work together, Biblically:


Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, *BUT* under grace.

Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for *IF* righteousness come by the law, *THEN* Christ is dead in vain.

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are *JUSTIFIED BY* the law; ye are *FALLEN FROM* grace.

Joh 1:17 For the law *WAS* given by Moses, *BUT* grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
 

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Posted by Duke (Member # 5719) on :
 
Well I most certainly believe in keeping the laws of God, which includes the ten commandments; yes all of them, I am not a seventh day adventist.

I keep the Gods laws because God does not change and because Christ Himself said not one tittle of the law will change till heaven and earth pass away and "all" is fullfilled!!

Now I really don't know why people have to make such a huge deal out of the Sabbath when it makes it abundently clear that it won't change! Not one bit! Not all is fullfilled and Christ makes this very clear too!

Heaven and earth have not passed away yet!

Now I agree with several points about some of the seventh day adventist beliefs. I personally have met many who think Ellen White was a prophetis, but if some one is going to be a prophet of God then they need to be correct all the time and I found things in her books that were not correct.
Also I disagree with some of them claiming that some of these things as mentioned in Revelations as alread having happened.

But aside from that I think if they want to practice the Sabbath which is holy to God then why would anyone bash that?

It don't make sense to me.
 

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Posted by epouraniois (Member # 5187) on :
 
that God gives different messages to different people at different times must not be construed to mean that in order for God to do this God must change.

of course God does not change, but most certainly, as His plan continues to unfold, His messages have changed.

these are easily found in the two small words, 'but now'.
 

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Posted by Duke (Member # 5719) on :
 
Well lets see those "But Now" issues because I would be willing to be it has nothing to do with Gods Law!

Even the temple continues to this day of which Christ is the High Priest! Its just not imperect anymore, but perfect!

So what of Gods laws have changed? I cannot even concieve to belittle God by saying He has changed!

And is it your opinion then that the heavens and earth have passed away? You need to look at the wording because Christ say the law will not change!
It seems pretty direct to me!
 

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Posted by David (Member # 1) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Duke:
But aside from that I think if they want to practice the Sabbath which is holy to God then why would anyone bash that?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Duke:
And is it your opinion then that the heavens and earth have passed away? You need to look at the wording because Christ say the law will not change!

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quote:

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epouraniois
define the "Term" saved by "Grace" as used in the New Covenant?

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quote:

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David ... the Sabbath was not Jewish only, but applied to the entire world. However, it should be noted that in Exodus 31:17 God says (speaking of the Sabbath), "It will be a sign between Me and the Israelites forever". Why didn’t God say, "It will be a sign between Me and all mankind"? Also in Deuteronomy 5:3 we read (in reference to the Ten Commandments), "It was not with our fathers that the LORD made this covenant, but with us, with all of us who are alive here today." This also reinforces the fact that the Ten Commandments (including the Sabbath) were not given before Sinai.

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quote:

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Originally posted by becauseHElives:
If the “Moral Law” of the Ten Commandments is abolished as some suggest, then what Commandments or Laws are wrote on the hearts of the New Covenant believer.

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quote:

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What is the distinction between the law of sin and death and the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus?

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quote:

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Originally posted by becauseHElives:
Oh now I see Arron, now that I walk after the Spirit Of Yahweh, I want love Yahweh with all my heart , mind , body and soul and I can steal, kill, bear false witness, covet my neighbors wife and stuff. Thanks for clearing that up.

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quote:

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Does Jesus not say that His commands are to be kept?

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.

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quote:

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"This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you."

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quote:

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5 "But now I go away to Him who sent Me, and none of you asks Me, 'Where are You going?' 6 But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8 And when He has come, He(previously only those who heard the law were convicted of the law, now that the Holy Spirit has been sent none escape conviction) will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.
12 "I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.

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quote:

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Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:

quote:

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What is the distinction between the law of sin and death and the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus?

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Is not the distinction that the law of sin and death was incomplete as Christ was not yet risen? Christ is now risen. The law is now complete...not only bringing knowledge of sin and death, but also life.

Does Jesus not say that His commands are to be kept?

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Aaron:

quote:

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Originally posted by becauseHElives:
Oh now I see Arron, now that I walk after the Spirit Of Yahweh, I want love Yahweh with all my heart , mind , body and soul and I can steal, kill, bear false witness, covet my neighbors wife and stuff. Thanks for clearing that up.

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Ha! Your post reminded me of the countless others I have erased before sending them when my better judgment defeats my impulsivity.

quote:

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Does Jesus not say that His commands are to be kept?

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.

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Sure. But what are the commandments of Jesus? Shortly after speaking the above He gives us this one:

quote:

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"This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you."

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but then He says this:

quote:

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5 "But now I go away to Him who sent Me, and none of you asks Me, 'Where are You going?' 6 But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8 And when He has come, He(previously only those who heard the law were convicted of the law, now that the Holy Spirit has been sent none escape conviction) will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.
12 "I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.

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Here is the means by which the Law of the Spirit is given "by the Spirit Himself; from the Father, from Jesus, from the Spirit to men". I believe all of the writings after John's gospel are rife with the teachings of the Spirit...through Luke, Paul, Peter, John, James, etc. And He, the Spirit, continues to teach us today.

Aaron

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quote:

---

Is not the distinction that the law of sin and death was incomplete as Christ was not yet risen? Christ is now risen. The law is now complete...not only bringing knowledge of sin and death, but also life.

Does Jesus not say that His commands are to be kept?

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by epouraniois:

quote:

---

Is not the distinction that the law of sin and death was incomplete as Christ was not yet risen? Christ is now risen. The law is now complete...not only bringing knowledge of sin and death, but also life.

Does Jesus not say that His commands are to be kept?

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.

---

amen {truth},

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Luk 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

but He did not come for the nations, but only for Israel that she might bring the nations to the knowledge of the Lord, as it is written, and Christ personally declares this:

Mat 15:23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.


but when she calls Him Lord, oh, that got Him, where before she called Him by His Hebrew name, so He answered her not a word:

Mat 15:25 Then came she and worshiped him, saying, Lord, help me.
Mat 15:26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.


but did call her a dog, as did Hebrews always call us, albeit in the diminutive form, reading; little puppy dog.

my point is, again, when quoting Christ, was He speaking to you and me, or only to the Hebrews? Well, we don't have to guess do we?

Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

Besides all that, all of the words save for a few parentheticals, should be in red because they are all the Words of God, BUT, Christ's words while in the flesh were not the final truth and revelation:

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.
Joh 16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show it unto you.

All Israel could have received all truth, but they judged yourselves unworthy of everlasting life {life unto the end of the age} see Act 13:46


So where do we find the final word of truth, the completion of the word of God? In the revelation of the mystery {secret} concerning the heavenly calling:

why, it is that which is written concerning the mystery

Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfill {complete} the word of God;


Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in {among} you, the hope of glory

---

Hmm. That was good.

Aaron
 

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Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :
 
Epouranious and Aaron, would each of you please tell me which of the 10 commandments our heavenly position in Christ gives us authority to violate?

Am I now through the blood of Christ and because of heavenly position given permission to:

place other gods before GOD Almighty?

make idols of things earthly or heavenly or below the earth?

Claim HIS Holy name falsely?

Forget the Sabbath and make it common?

Dishonor my parents?

Kill?

commit adultery?

Steal?

Lie?

Covet and lust?

Please do tell me which of these things our saviour died to give me freedom to do?

Then tell me how I can claim to love God with all my being and love my neighbor as Christ loved me and do any of these things?
 

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Posted by Aaron (Member # 3761) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
Epouranious and Aaron, would each of you please tell me which of the 10 commandments our heavenly position in Christ gives us authority to violate?

---

Only if you can find a robin that gives birth to crows. Impossible: a robin's nature will never allow it to give birth to crows. Just as I cannot plant wheat and expect to reap a harvest of corn.

I fail to see how that question is the logical argument against "the Mosaic law has been no power over the sons of God".

Perhaps because it seems only two ways are available to men: lawfulness or unlawfulness. However, there is a third way: the law of the Spirit. This is the law/life that attends the apostles, prophets, and the whole of the church. This is why the apostle Paul could write authoritatively about "new" things of God; things that were previously hidden from men.

Aaron

P.S. Does it really seem I am advocating debauchery and hedonism? How can that be so? It is contrary to the spirit within me.
 

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Posted by Hitch (Member # 5654) on :
 
Israel's hope is in the earthly kingdom


Israel's hope is Christ cruxified and resurrected.
 

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Posted by Aaron (Member # 3761) on :
 
http://www.soleyn.com/Audio/Prgm18.mp3

The commentary above may help explain my position on the matter.

Aaron
 

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Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :
 

quote:

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P.S. Does it really seem I am advocating debauchery and hedonism? How can that be so? It is contrary to the spirit within me.

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quote:

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Israel's hope is in the earthly kingdom


Israel's hope is Christ cruxified and resurrected.

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quote:

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Originally posted by becauseHElives:
epouraniois
I ask this ? the other day on this post (see page 2) I am still waiting for a response.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
epouraniois
define the "Term" saved by "Grace" as used in the New Covenant?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith ; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Your confusion comes by not understanding "Grace"

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quote:

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God will NOT GIVE HIS HOLY SPIRIT to a person who will NOT OBEY Him!!

Acts 5:32

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quote:

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John 14:15 "If ye love me, keep my commandments."

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quote:

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don't you think it is important to acknowledge to whom the words are written as well as the purpose for them being sent?

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quote:

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Originally posted by becauseHElives:
epouraniois, the word "grace" has a definition and you did not begin to answer the definition of it!

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quote:

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when I read that a book is written to Israel, to me, that means it is written to Israel and not to me.

there are letters written to me that are not addressed to Israel.

the letters written to those of the kingdom are different than those written to the church.

rightly dividing the word of truth does not confuse the kingdom with the church, heaven with the earth, the 12 tribes with the gentiles, but acknowledges all Scripture as being sent to a specific peoples with a specific message from a specific source.

the OT is written to, and is about Israel. It is a book of their promise by covenant relation with God. Christ said He came to fulfill the law, which belonged to Israel.


Paul said that in order for him to apprehend that for which also he was apprehended of, was forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are in front of him.

In forgetting about those things behind him, he feared that anyone would return again to bondage and law.

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Originally posted by becauseHElives:
epouraniois, the word "grace" has a definition and you did not begin to answer the definition of it!


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you didn't ask for a definition of grace from me, so why pretend as if you did?

what you asked of me was "define the "Term" saved by "Grace" as used in the New Covenant?"

as far as I know, the "Term" is not a Biblical one.

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How much scripture does it say is written to the believer?

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Your use of the word "dogma {dog'-mah}" as used as the ordinances against the believer is only referring to man made ordinances, not the commandments of Yahweh..

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Grace is a free gift undeserved by any of Adam’s race. Grace Can not be earned by any good work, but obedience to your Father desires is not work, obedience flows out of a heart that has been change from rock to flesh

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