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Author
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Topic: Is Israel doing the right thing?
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Eduardo Grequi
Advanced Member
Member # 3984
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posted
Let me tell you that when people do not say "ENOUGH is ENOUGH" and protect themselves, the devil would have won the battle. I remember growing up as an Orthodox Jew and having bricks thrown thru my windows as a child. On one particular day a brick landed in the crib of my youngest brother and nearly killed him. My cousin at 8 years of age raped and murdered by Jewish haters. The brakes of my sister's car cut not once but three times and the perputrator were 2 American Muslims and 1 skin head. My sister was 7 months pregnant when she ended up hitting a large pick up truck and her un born baby murdered and the government officials slapped the hands of the assailants. Unless you truly see that Isreal is fighting not in a new covenant era but what they precieve to be old testament era- YOU AS OTHER CHRISTIANS fail a certain understanding of all the past events that lead up to this.
When children can not play (because fear of being persecuted relating to the color of their skin or the content of their ethincity that makes them uniquely how God created them) in their own backyard because fascist anti-semetic people-how unfair! Islamic parents train their own children to hate and kill and ruin other children pursuit of happiness even if you belong to a hindu religion.
WHen I look at this MIDDLE EAST, I see the coming of the storm, that will not reverse itself WITHOUT THE HAND AND PROVIDENCE OF GOD ALMIGHTY TO INTERVENE.
Truly Isreal, seems so brutal in its tatics, but Isreal and my people have servived by the will of God Almighty.
ANDY- Is your faith in Jesus based on your love for Him or is it based on the tradition of many familial generations in your geneology.
YOU COME ACROSS TO ME as an ANTI-SEMETIC AND Hater of Isreal. GOD COMMANDS ALL WHO BELIEVE IN HIM TO LOVE ONE ANOTHER- Isreal has tried and continue to try to live with peace and geniune concern for the neighbors.
NOW AS WE CHRISTIANS SAY- The ostrich head is almost out of the ground and ISREAL HAS SAID ENOGH IS ENOUGH
THESE ARE THE EVENTS AND COMING TO FULLNESS OF MATTHEW 24.
I BELIEVE AND AM PERSUADED THAT GOD WHO HAS CREATED THE WORLD, IS QUITE CAPABLE TO PRESERVE HIS WRITTEN WORD. EVEN IF IT IS TRANSLATED.
NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR GOD. AND IF WE HAVE LOVE GOD PRAY FOR PEACE then one day- JESUS THE BLESSED MESSIAH WILL COME TO ESTABLISH HIS KINGDOM.
REGARDLESS what other religions do or who deny Jesus, that will not prevent the Holy Word to come to fact. I will concede most JEWISH PEOPLE still do not recognize THE MESSIAHSHIP of Jesus, but according to the Tenet of Faith in Isreal they are awaiting their Messiah and still live in old testament rituals.
Posts: 771 | From: Belvidere, IL | Registered: Oct 2004
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helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
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posted
quote:
If it was black and white as you suggest, you are then saying that Israel can do ANYTHING in defence of it's nation no matter whether the threat is large or small, up to and including turning Lebanon and half the middle east into a smoking ruin using it's nuclaer weapons NO MATTER what the threat.
Is this not exactly what the other side does threaten now? I think that Iran has made it very clear that they do not think that Irael has the right to exisit in the land of Palestine even if it means poluting the land with nuclear waste that will render it unihabitable.
I think that Bible prophesy confirms that nuclear weapons will be used in the middle east war, but I do not believe that it will not be Israel that launches them.
Andy, here is what I do not understand about your position....
Why is it that you feel that Israel has the responsibility of protecting Lebanon's citizens, when clearly that is Lebanon's responsibility?
Why do you not see that Lebanon has placed her own citizens in danger because she has allowed her land to be the place of launch for attacks on Israel?
Andy, Iran and Iraq have both said that they will spare no means to support the Lebonese government against Israel... why is that not criticised by you as much as Israel is criticised? Why do you expect Israel to fight conventionally when her opponents do not? Because she is not terrorist and they are? Not so.. Andy, the terrorists are backed by very legitimate governments. Hezbollah has the full support of Iran and Syria and Iraq and I am at this point waiting for Egypt to open her mouth as well. Just because these nation states chose to use pawns should not make us to be blind to the fact that they are simply that pawns of legitimate nations that have vowed the anihilation of Israel. They allow others to put their name on the attcks, but the money the weapons, the manpower, the training, the logistics.. and the hate that comes forth.. comes forth from legitimate nations that should be in a perfect world accountable to the rules of conventional warfare that you would like to hold Israel to, but they are not.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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ahar
Advanced Member
Member # 5810
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posted
Helpforhomeschoolers - Sorry, my response was a bit glib - the point I wanted to make is that where God gave them the land in the Old Testament does not absolve them from any of the duties that befall any other person or nation when using their military
quote:
Originally posted by Gramajo320:
Ahar, what I said to you in my last posting is the truth and it was reported on the national news and they showed several pictures. I did not say that all people were out! After all there were many thousands of people lined up waiting to be evacuated and taken out to the waiting ships to be taken to Cyprus. Furthermore everyone knows it takes a whole lot of time to complete a very large mass evacuation!
The phrase that you used was "Israel helped to make certain that all who wanted to leave could do so". This is only true of foreigners, not Lebanese civilians.
quote:
Originally posted by Gramajo320:
If at some point in time you were told you had to make a choice between Israel or Hezbollah and Hamas, which would be your choice?
I shall forever stand by all Israelis and Israel!
They are in the right no matter what you think!
This is not a black and white, Israel or Hezbollah decision and to put it in that context is wrong. Israel is right to defend itself, but that does not negate the possibility of critism of their actions in doing so. Critising the way that Israel goes about defending itself does not imply support for Hezbollah.
If it was black and white as you suggest, you are then saying that Israel can do ANYTHING in defence of it's nation no matter whether the threat is large or small, up to and including turning Lebanon and half the middle east into a smoking ruin using it's nuclaer weapons NO MATTER what the threat.
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Originally posted by Gramajo320:
You talk about Israel's weaponry. Take a good look at Hezbollah and Hamas weaponry! Take a good look at everything they do!
Hezbollah and Hamas are terrorist organisations - of course they have nasty weaponry - that's because they are terrorists! Israel is a nation state, and has a responsibility as a nation state to minimise the suffering of innocent civilians, otherwise they act in the same way as the terrorists.
quote:
Originally posted by Gramajo320:
I give God all praise, love, glory, and thanks for everything throughout each day 24/7!
On that at least, we agree, but then I suppose that's not surprising as it's a Christian forum ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Cheers
Andy
Posts: 290 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2006
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TEXASGRANDMA
Advanced Member
Member # 847
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posted
I read that the terrorist won't let the people leave Lebanon. The sad truth is, if a Country protects a terrorist group then they are just as bad as the terroirist group.
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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Gramajo320
Advanced Member
Member # 4667
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posted
Ahar, what I said to you in my last posting is the truth and it was reported on the national news and they showed several pictures. I did not say that all people were out! After all there were many thousands of people lined up waiting to be evacuated and taken out to the waiting ships to be taken to Cyprus. Furthermore everyone knows it takes a whole lot of time to complete a very large mass evacuation!
If at some point in time you were told you had to make a choice between Israel or Hezbollah and Hamas, which would be your choice?
I shall forever stand by all Israelis and Israel!
They are in the right no matter what you think!
Hezbollah and Hamas are evil terrorists who've committed terrorist barbaric acts all around the world and yet you choose to ignore what they have done and all that they continue to do. You talk about Israel's weaponry. Take a good look at Hezbollah and Hamas weaponry! Take a good look at everything they do! Israel and the Israelis are not the bad guys in the conflict - Hezbollah and Hamas are and you know they began the problem when they kidnapped the two soldiers and refused to return them when Israel requested that they do so. This occurred before Israel ever began attacking and Israel gave them time before they ever went on the offensive - a true fact that you cannot deny! Israel is very definitely within their rights!
One thing is for certain - God is in control, He will forever be in control and I give God all praise, love, glory, and thanks for everything throughout each day 24/7!
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Gramajo320
Posts: 2385 | From: WA | Registered: May 2005
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helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
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posted
quote:
Ah, so you don't need to differentiate between civilians and others if the land was given to you by God. That somehow makes you immune to sin?
Oh, Andy, I expected so much more in the form of a rebuttle from you than this. This is lame and it surely is not my words. I have said absolutely nothing about Israel being immune from sin.
I am not even sure what it means to be "immune"from sin. Is it like being immun from a disease? That would mean Israel cannot sin? Surely Israel can and does sin.
Israel is justified in defending their land. Hezbollah has attacked their land from Lebanon. Lebanon... not Israel...Lebanon has an obligation to protect her citizens. Lebanon has not done this. Not only has she not done this, but she has allowed Hezollah from within to place her citizens in jepoardy.
How will God judge these nations? I believe that GOD will judge Lebanon for allowing her citizens to be indangered by Hezbollah. I believe that God will judge Lebanon for ensuring the safety of her citizens.
I believe that GOD will not judge Israel for defending her land. In fact, I believe that the fact that many of her soldiers are reported to be in prayer for their nation while they are on the battlefield, God just might be on her side and minimize her loses and advance her success.
Seeing that I see that this is how GOD will judge these nations, I am unable to judge in a way that I believe GOD will not himself judge.
Could I be wrong? Yep! But I trust that God will have mercy on my soul if I am knowing that it was because of HIS word regarding Israel that I have seen this as I do.
The just shall live by fatih, Andy.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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Member # 4579
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by ahar:
Rose - I ask you to look beyond what you might see on the Fox news network and search out reports from all news sources (British, US, Israeli, Arabic etc) as to what's happening on the ground. Dig deep into the weapons being used, the targets and tactics, and decide for yourself from this evidence whether it is going to far or not. Stop thinking in terms of black and white (Israel is right to defend itself or not) and look at the complexities of the situation and the choices available to all sides - only then can you make an informed decision. This is not about absolutes - to support or not support Israel - this is about the complexities of the situation and the response that the situation justifies.
Iiight then, ahar, you seem like a decent man, and what you ask sounds reasonable, so I'll take another look at this from all angles... And we'll see just what I find.
Yo! Maybe you have a point, maybe you don't.
I'll review this more...
I'll let God guide me to the truth, like He always does. I want to see it for myself, so I can breathe easy.
... *And yo! How you know I was watching the Fox News Network? HA!
Posts: 1051 | Registered: Apr 2005
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ahar
Advanced Member
Member # 5810
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramajo320:
Ahar, Israel helped to make certain that all who wanted to leave could do so. Did you not see the news of the lebonese people leaving, also all the other people of other countries leaving, our U.S. Marines were also there helping americans and others to leave taking them out to the waiting ships!
Rubbish - the UN are STILL helping people get out, despite the bombing. If there aren't any civilians left in the south, why are the Red Cross and UN aid people risking their lives driving aid convoys down into the south where the fighting is happening.
Rose - I ask you to look beyond what you might see on the Fox news network and search out reports from all news sources (British, US, Israeli, Arabic etc) as to what's happening on the ground. Dig deep into the weapons being used, the targets and tactics, and decide for yourself from this evidence whether it is going to far or not. Stop thinking in terms of black and white (Israel is right to defend itself or not) and look at the complexities of the situation and the choices available to all sides - only then can you make an informed decision. This is not about absolutes - to support or not support Israel - this is about the complexities of the situation and the response that the situation justifies.
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Cheers
Andy
Posts: 290 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2006
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Itty-Bitty Girl
Advanced Member
Member # 4579
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posted
Aw, come on, ahar, Israel is trying to defend herself by any means neccessary. They gotta do what they gotta do, yo.
And I can see where you are coming from. You have a good heart for people, and I like that about you, but don't let your emotions blind you from the fact that it is up to Hezebolah to end it all.
Hezebolah can stop all this.
Posts: 1051 | Registered: Apr 2005
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Gramajo320
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Member # 4667
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posted
Ahar, Israel helped to make certain that all who wanted to leave could do so. Did you not see the news of the lebonese people leaving, also all the other people of other countries leaving, our U.S. Marines were also there helping americans and others to leave taking them out to the waiting ships! Israel is not the bad guy in this conflict! Hezbollah and Hamas is and although you won't admit to it, you know that's the truth!
Israel has the right to defend themselves and their country! Any country has the right to defend themselves against those terrible terrorist organizations. Israel is right!
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Gramajo320
Posts: 2385 | From: WA | Registered: May 2005
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ahar
Advanced Member
Member # 5810
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by David:
[QUOTE]
Israel is not at fault for the death of civilians. While Lebanon allows a terrorist regime to operate within its' state and represent a large majority of its' government, it is responsible for the death of these "innocent" civilians. These so called "innocent" civilians you speak of also harbor members of this terrorist regime, as well as store munitions in their homes.
First of all, Hezbollah is a terrorist organisation, not a regime. It does not represent a large majority of the government - they have a few government ministers, not a majority. They do resemble a quasi-governmental organisation in the south of Lebanon as the majority of their activity is not terrorism but providing health, education and social care activities. This does not justify any terrorist acts they undertake, but it does show the complexity of the situation that most people in this thread so far have conveniently ignored.
Israel IS responsible for some of the civilian casualties. Let me give you yet another example - Israel is using cluster munitions in built up areas. These are pretty nasty weapons, originally designed for the cold war where they could be dropped on large enemy troop concentrations to cause maximum injury within the troop mass. These weapons consist of a large container that houses hundreds of 'sub-munitions' or bomblets. The container is dropped (or fired by artilery) over an area and it bursts scattering the sub-munitions over a large area. Ignore what you will be shown on TV, with precise missle strikes on a specific building - these weapons are indescriminate. They also not all explode on impact - they hang around waiting to be disturbed when they explode. They are brightly coloured, and look a lot like childrens toys - many children in Iraq have been killed or maimed picking up these objects.
Cluster munitions do have a place in war - when you have a concentration of enemy troops they are very effective at killing them - they were used with some success in Vietnam for example. In a counter-insurgency operation like this, where you are fighting guerrila rather than conventional forces, not only is their use partly limited, but they kill a vastly dispropotionate number of civilians and make any life returning to the area very expensive and difficult due to the clean up.
People keep mentioning that Israel have told the civilians to get out - let me say again, not only did they only start telling them to leave 10 days after the bombing started but it is incredibly difficult to leave when the ports are blockaded, bridges destroyed, airport crippled and even Israel admits that it is not safe traveling on the roads. How are they meant to get out - use a Star Trek teleporter?
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Cheers
Andy
Posts: 290 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2006
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ahar
Advanced Member
Member # 5810
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
quote:
Israel is a nation state, Hezbollah is a terrorist organisation. They are different - Israel, as a nation state MUST abide by a different set of rules. If they do the same as the terrorists, how are they any different?
They are different because they are fighting for a land that is theirs given by GOD.
They are different because they are reacting to people trying to take their land.. not going out trying to conquer other's land.
Ah, so you don't need to differentiate between civilians and others if the land was given to you by God. That somehow makes you immune to sin?
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Cheers
Andy
Posts: 290 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2006
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TEXASGRANDMA
Advanced Member
Member # 847
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posted
Gen 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
There were times, that Israel did not obey God's commands and kill everyone that God them to. They always lived to regret disobeying God. The truth is we may feel sorry for these children in Lebanon and should but they are born and raised on hate for the Jews. The are the enemy of the Jews.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
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posted
quote:
Israel is a nation state, Hezbollah is a terrorist organisation. They are different - Israel, as a nation state MUST abide by a different set of rules. If they do the same as the terrorists, how are they any different?
They are different because they are fighting for a land that is theirs given by GOD.
They are different because they are reacting to people trying to take their land.. not going out trying to conquer other's land.
They are different because ultimately when all is said and done, Christ himself is going to come and claim that land for the children of Abrahams and if you have not read there are going to be so many dead that Israel is going to employ full time people to bury the bodies for 7 months, and for 7 years they will burn the spoils and the weapons and the things left there in battle.
They are different because ultimately in the end when all is said and done, it is they that GOD plans to bring to repentence of sin and restoration and reconcilliation with HIM as a NATION, and it is the others that will be judged as a Nation for their having troddened upon Israel!
It does not matter whether we think this is fair or right or what ever..... it is ultimately what GOD is going to do!
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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KnowHim
Admin
Member # 1
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by ahar:
You stand by them no matter what they do? Are they exempt from sin? Do they have the right to do anything that they want?
They have the right to defend themselves from the bloodthirsty terrorist who continue to kill their people.
First of all, Israel is responding not just to those recent killings but to a long string of attacks since it withdrew from Lebanon in 2000. The kidnapping was just the straw that broke the camel's back.
Good Quotes:
First, Israel is striking a population that has embraced terrorism. Aside from the fact that the Israelis consistently strike in exurban areas and warn civilian populations before each attack, the truth is that the populations of the Gaza Strip and Lebanon were not forced to elect Hezbollah and Hamas. Hezbollah is the largest political party in Lebanon, Hamas is the largest political party in the Palestinian territories; those kidnappers are the ones who garner the most votes from that civilian population. Even the Arab nations understand the character of Hamas — they recently sent $100 million in aid to the Palestinians, but did it through Palestinian President Abbas rather than trust Hamas with the money — but that civilian population voted them in anyway. People who vote for terrorism cannot demand immunity.
http://www.mcall.com/news/opinion/anotherview/all-torczyner7-14jul14,0,1818138.story
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In Israel you can not tell the terrorist from the civilian because they all dress the same. So, if you see what you assume is an innocent civilian that has been killed by an Israeli missile, think twice. If you buy into the Hezbollah propaganda, then you are part of the problem.
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Israel is not at fault for the death of civilians. While Lebanon allows a terrorist regime to operate within its' state and represent a large majority of its' government, it is responsible for the death of these "innocent" civilians. These so called "innocent" civilians you speak of also harbor members of this terrorist regime, as well as store munitions in their homes.
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The United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL) has been deployed since 1978, not long after Israel first entered Lebanon in pursuit of PLO terrorists. UNIFIL was created pursuant to Security Council Resolution 425, for the purpose of "confirming the withdrawal of Israeli forces, restoring international peace and security and assisting the Government of Lebanon in ensuring the return of its effective authority in the area." Quite obviously UNFIL has utterly failed to achieve the Security Council's objectives, either before or after Israel's 2000 complete withdrawal from Lebanon. One reason is that UNIFIL does not interdict Hezbollah attacks on Israel. Instead, UNIFIL allows Hezbollah to set up positions next to UNFIL units, in effect using UNIFIL as human shields against Israeli counterstrikes. (Aluf Benn, Israel accuses UN of collaborating with Hezbollah," Haaretz, Sept. 11, 2005.)
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Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
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ahar
Advanced Member
Member # 5810
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eduardo Grequi:
Andy have you read the entire old testament!
I have read the old testament (even the really gruesome bits in Judges). You mentioned Abraham, so I responed regarding Abraham.
The old testament was the old testament - we are living under the new covenant and God told the to kill them all as there were all unbelievers. Just try going out now and doing the same as they did in the Old Testament (the phrase we use nowadays is genocide) and see what God thinks.
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Cheers
Andy
Posts: 290 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2006
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ahar
Advanced Member
Member # 5810
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramajo320:
Ahar,
Israeli planes dropped leaflets for civilians of Lebanon to read asking them to evacuate to safer territory and gave them some time to do so. Some civilians paid attention to the leaflets and did evacuate. Others did not pay attention and chose to take the risk by staying there. At least they were forewarned.
They only started dropping leaflets 10 days into the bombing. Also, it's not always possible for people get out in the time scales that they gave AFTER large parts of the infrastruture (raods, bridges etc) have been destroyed. It's not like the US - a lot of people don't have cars, there are few buses, no air transport and no trains. Would you risk walking along while Israel is dropping bombs around you? The UN are STILL helping to pull people out from the south - people who want to and have wanted to leave from beginning but cannot due to the destroyed infrastructure and continued bombardment.
quote:
Originally posted by Gramajo320:
Members of Hezbollah and members of Hamas mix in with the civilian population and they carry out their cowardly evil acts.
Oh, so that means that Israel can happily bomb away not bothering about civilians as it's all Hezbollah's fault?
quote:
Originally posted by Gramajo320:
You say look at the images of those who've been killed in Lebanon by Israel. I say to you look at all the images of Israeli children, women, and men, who lost their lives when the evil suicide bombers carry out their evil deeds in buses, stores, restaurants, etc. Look at the images of over 218 U.S. Marines and some U.S, Navy personnel who were killed as they slept when their barracks were bombed by Hezbollah in Beruit.
Look at the images of all of the innocent people killed in New York on September 11, 2000 by the evil terrorists. Look at the images of the people killed in London when the evil bombers blew up places, look at all the images of all bombings carried out by the terrorists all around this world. Look at the images of the evil terrorists holding hostages and beheading them on camera. Look at the images of the terrorists killing their very own people in cold blood every day. Hezbollah, Hamas, Al Quaida members want a holy war and they've been calling for a holy war for a very long time as I'm sure you are aware of that fact!
No, if you bothered to read my post I said to look at the images of victims on both sides. And I see you've gone back to wittering on about suicide bombers. Unlike most of you sitting safely in you cosy seats in the US, I walk past the place where the bus blew up in London on my way to work every day. My wife uses the No 30 bus route - but by the grace of God it could have easliy been one of us. Don't bother waxing lyrical to me about the dangers of Islamic terorism.
quote:
Originally posted by Gramajo320:
After the utterly horrific holocaust of the 1930's and 1940's when 6 million Jews, men, women, and children were murdered during Hitler's regime, the Jewish people later said "Never Again!"
Israel has every right to do what they are doing to stop Hezbollah, Hamas, and other terrorists organizations and I will always be in agreement with them.
Take a look at our own country and the horrific evil deeds of the terrorists in New York on Sept. 11, 2000. Our country went to war in Afghanistan and then went to war in Iraq to first liberate all the people of the two countries and then to fight the terrorists. The terrorists organizations have no respect and no regard for any human life - they can kill you without blinking an eye and they certainly have no remorse over all of the beheadings they've committed.
The holocost does not give Israel the right to ignore its responsibilities in keeping civilian causualties to a minimum. Israel is a nation state, Hezbollah is a terrorist organisation. They are different - Israel, as a nation state MUST abide by a different set of rules. If they do the same as the terrorists, how are they any different?
quote:
Originally posted by Gramajo320:
Anyway I stand by all the Jewish people and Israel! They will prevail! They are within their rights!
You stand by them no matter what they do? Are they exempt from sin? Do they have the right to do anything that they want?
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Cheers
Andy
Posts: 290 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2006
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Gramajo320
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Member # 4667
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posted
Ahar,
Israeli planes dropped leaflets for civilians of Lebanon to read asking them to evacuate to safer territory and gave them some time to do so. Some civilians paid attention to the leaflets and did evacuate. Others did not pay attention and chose to take the risk by staying there. At least they were forewarned. Members of Hezbollah and members of Hamas mix in with the civilian population and they carry out their cowardly evil acts. You say look at the images of those who've been killed in Lebanon by Israel. I say to you look at all the images of Israeli children, women, and men, who lost their lives when the evil suicide bombers carry out their evil deeds in buses, stores, restaurants, etc. Look at the images of over 218 U.S. Marines and some U.S, Navy personnel who were killed as they slept when their barracks were bombed by Hezbollah in Beruit.
Look at the images of all of the innocent people killed in New York on September 11, 2000 by the evil terrorists. Look at the images of the people killed in London when the evil bombers blew up places, look at all the images of all bombings carried out by the terrorists all around this world. Look at the images of the evil terrorists holding hostages and beheading them on camera. Look at the images of the terrorists killing their very own people in cold blood every day. Hezbollah, Hamas, Al Quaida members want a holy war and they've been calling for a holy war for a very long time as I'm sure you are aware of that fact!
After the utterly horrific holocaust of the 1930's and 1940's when 6 million Jews, men, women, and children were murdered during Hitler's regime, the Jewish people later said "Never Again!"
Israel has every right to do what they are doing to stop Hezbollah, Hamas, and other terrorists organizations and I will always be in agreement with them.
Take a look at our own country and the horrific evil deeds of the terrorists in New York on Sept. 11, 2000. Our country went to war in Afghanistan and then went to war in Iraq to first liberate all the people of the two countries and then to fight the terrorists. The terrorists organizations have no respect and no regard for any human life - they can kill you without blinking an eye and they certainly have no remorse over all of the beheadings they've committed.
Anyway I stand by all the Jewish people and Israel! They will prevail! They are within their rights!
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Gramajo320
Posts: 2385 | From: WA | Registered: May 2005
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ahar
Advanced Member
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posted
I'm giving up on this thread. Time and time again I have tried to bring the discussion around to what is actually happening, and all everyone (except for a few) seems to do is equate ANY critism of what Israel is doing with some kind of anti Israel, anti semitic bias and then go on about suicide bombers etc. I KNOW that Israel is under attack and bad things happen to it but this does NOT give them carte blanche to do whatever they want.
Over 400 Lebanese have died so far - some of these are Hezbollah, but at least one third are children. Israel has demonstrated criminally negligence in its actions time and again and not to critise them is a sin.
I'm accused of anti-Israel sentiments - look at yourselves and question whether your own bias towards Israel is stopping you from critically examining what they are doing. Remember, by their own admission, ALL US networks censor a huge part of the footage they have of events in Iraq and the Middle East so as 'not to upset their viewers'. I wonder how different your opinions may be if the real images of causualties on both sides were on yur TVs every day.
PS Generally, most daytime news broadcasts in the UK do censor footage, but not to the same extent. Late night, and one off programmes generally do not censor footage.
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Cheers
Andy
Posts: 290 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2006
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Gramajo320
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posted
Ahar,
I have a special love for all Jewish people and for Israel and always will have. Israel is doing the right thing in defending their country and the citizens of their country. Remember it was the Hezbollah who killed some Israeli soldiers and then took two with them. Hezbollah and Hamas need to be totally disarmed.
I've never understood the bias against the Jewish people and Israel and I believe all of the bias is so wrong. I see and hear bias from news reporters and that's also wrong to be so biased in reporting the news.
Almost a year ago I became a member of the Jerusalem Prayer Team and I receive e-mails from them. Mike Evans gives us news reports of what is really going on in Israel. Today the Hezbollah has now threatened to use chemical and biological weapons against Israel and I have not doubt that Hezbollah will indeed try to do just that - Members of Hezbollah and Hamas, and all other terrorists groups have no regard for any human life - they want a jihad. They believe any terrorist act they commit is okay and they believe if they die in committing a terrorist act that they will go to paradise. I once explained to a person who claimed to be a Jihadist just where he would in actuality be going and that it wouldn't be paradise or heaven. They hate american citizens just as much as they hate Israelis and it's their wish to kill all Jewish people and all American people.
In any war innocent civilian lives are lost and that's terribly sad and also heartbreaking but it's a fact of war.
Israel is completely justified in their battle to protect their citizens and their country and I'm in complete agreement with them and I'm behind them 1000 percent. Furthermore, Ahar, Israel will prevail!
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Gramajo320
Posts: 2385 | From: WA | Registered: May 2005
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SoftTouch
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Wow, this is a long thread... I read a lot, but not the majority... here's where I stand:
Israel is doing the only thing she can do... defending herself and trying to make certain that a repeat can not happen. Israel does not hide behind civilians as the Terrorists do. Israel does not hide her weapons in the houses of innocent people as the Terrorists do. How could Israel possibly avoid civilian casualities??? It's impossible in Any war... much less when the enemy uses the civilians as human shields. What is Israel supposed to do? War is Hell...
Israel Is Doing The Right Thing and I'm Behind Her 100%
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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Yo! Do you know what I hate? I hate when people and the media criticize Israel and try to make it look they are villians. People get sucked into that trash the media puts out and start believing it.
Why is it that the wrong that the other nations do to Israel is being costantly overlooked. This ish is making me mad.
And some civilians are going to die, and their blood is not on the hands of Israel. It is on the hands of Hezebolah for his actions that led to the conflict in the first place. I'm sick of people demonizing Israel.
Israel is surrounded by enemies, and it breaks my heart.
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Eduardo Grequi
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Andy have you read the entire old testament! When the Isrealites came into the Jericho they were commanded to kill everyone- not one soul left except The harlot who lived in the wall with the read chord was spared. The Battle of Jericho.
I gaureentee you, if it was to be hand to hand combat- and no one used guns, tanks, and missles there would be less civilian causalties.
Have you ever been in the company of neo nazis or arian people who train their childrens to kill from the get go. ANd I tell you this fascist Islamics are no different. They train their children it is okay to kill any one who is different from what you believe.
Posts: 771 | From: Belvidere, IL | Registered: Oct 2004
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Miguel
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Andy in every war there is going to be innocents kills; I don’t think they are just among at them. If that is the case and then my Father in heaven have no heart when sending Moses to kill male, female, infants and animals.
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Romans 9:11-24
Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!
Posts: 2792 | From: Stockton,Ca | Registered: Jun 2002
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ahar
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quote:
Originally posted by Eduardo Grequi:
This war is no different than Abraham when he heard the news that his own kin was captured. Got an army together from among his servants and went in and slew their enemy and retrieved Lot and the others. The reason why is more heavy and and confused, conflicted WE USE GUNS, TANKS, BOMBS just like the Islamic Fascists.
ISREAL IS PROTECTING THEIR OWN, NO MORE DIFFERENT THAN ANY OTHER COUNTRY ON EARTH.
Satan on the other hand seeks to whom he may devour. WELL I BELIEVE FASCISTS ISLAMICS ARE LED BY SATAN HIMSELF. They seek to destroy, to devour, to maim, and to control !!!!!!!!!!!!
Abraham didn't kill civilians.
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Cheers
Andy
Posts: 290 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2006
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Eduardo Grequi
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This war is no different than Abraham when he heard the news that his own kin was captured. Got an army together from among his servants and went in and slew their enemy and retrieved Lot and the others. The reason why is more heavy and and confused, conflicted WE USE GUNS, TANKS, BOMBS just like the Islamic Fascists.
ISREAL IS PROTECTING THEIR OWN, NO MORE DIFFERENT THAN ANY OTHER COUNTRY ON EARTH.
Satan on the other hand seeks to whom he may devour. WELL I BELIEVE FASCISTS ISLAMICS ARE LED BY SATAN HIMSELF. They seek to destroy, to devour, to maim, and to control !!!!!!!!!!!!
Posts: 771 | From: Belvidere, IL | Registered: Oct 2004
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ahar
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quote:
Originally posted by David:
But they have not, so you are worrying about something that has not happened.
You could say that God may say He really is not God. But that don't make it true.
I used that as an example of a line that you might draw in critism of Israel. Either Israel is immune to critism or it is not - if not then the decision is where you draw the line and how you balance critism of what might be called sinful actions, with risking 'cursing' Israel as described in Genesis.
My feeling is that Israel has crossed that line and deserves to be rebuked for some of its actions - clearly everyone else posting in the tread doesn't!
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Cheers
Andy
Posts: 290 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2006
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ahar
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quote:
Originally posted by David:
quote:
Originally posted by ahar:
I was interested - by critising Israel in the way that I do, does anyone feel I am not living up to my biblical duties to support Israel and Jewish people?
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I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”
Genesis 12:3 (NKJV)
That pretty much answers it.
If you don't want God's favor, then I would say talking bad about His people will do it.
Ah, but then the question moves to where you draw the line - I'm sure that if, for example, they legalised homosexual marriage you would have a few choice things to say.
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Cheers
Andy
Posts: 290 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2006
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KnowHim
Admin
Member # 1
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by ahar:
I was interested - by critising Israel in the way that I do, does anyone feel I am not living up to my biblical duties to support Israel and Jewish people?
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I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”
Genesis 12:3 (NKJV)
That pretty much answers it.
If you don't want God's favor, then I would say talking bad about His people will do it.
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Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
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helpforhomeschoolers
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posted
quote:
I was interested - by critising Israel in the way that I do, does anyone feel I am not living up to my biblical duties to support Israel and Jewish people? If so, at what point do you draw the line between support for the state of Israel, and support for sinful activities in regards to the current conflict?
Personally, I am not sure that any of us has Biblical Duties to support Israel. I believe that how we view and react to Israel has a great deal to do with who and what Israel is to us.
For me. Israel is The Lord's, both the land and the people. They are inheritance of Christ's; Right now they are lost sinners. As individuals we must as Christians witness to them Christ. But as a nation, we must understand that they were blinded for our sakes and they are enemy when we speak as touching the Gospel, but they are beloved of God.
I understand that Jesus did not curse the nation of Israel, but the authority of Talmudic Judaism.
I understand that one day GOD is going to return a remnant of Israel to the Torah and to the Land and there they are going to come as a nation to know that Christ is the Messiah. I know that one day Christ will return to this earth to claim that remnant that is HIS promised to HIM by the Father and to claim the Land that is also HIS promised to HIm by the Father as the seed of Abraham; I understand that HE is coming to claim the literal Earthly Throne of David and that when the fullness of the Gentiles is come in, the Stick of Joseph that is now in the hands of Ephraim will be joined with the stick of Judah and they will become one nation in the hand of GOD and One Kind JESUS will reign over them and they will live in ONE land that is Palestine and for 1000 years they will teach the nations the oracles of God and be a witness that the GOD of Jacob is the HOLY ONE of ISRAEL... not ISLAM and not Mohammad, BUT ISRAEL.
Because I am the body of Christ, for me to curse Israel is to curse my own inheritance...my own brethren, the branches fo the very tree that I am grafted into, knowing that GOD Himself is going to one day bring them to faith and to TRUTH and graft them back in.... The nation of Israel not the state, but the nation of Israel and the church are branches of the same BRANCH which is part of the same Tree, which is part of the same root and if the root is HOLY then so the Branches. How can I speak against the branch... I cannot.
Still there is a difference between the state of Israel and the nation of Israel, and today the state of Israel does a lot of things that I do not like or agree with, but I know that GOD will deal with the sins of the State of Israel, in the mean time, I want to see Israel the nation in the land of Palestine, and I want to see them build a temple and I want to see them return to the Torah, because in doing this, the nation of Israel that is likely at this very moment a remnant inside the state of Israel will find Christ and so I am against all things that seek to eliminate Israel as a people or a Land.
Having said all of that and apart from my personal love for Israel that is out of a love for the KING of Israel, and their Brethren and mine as Abraham is the Father of us all, I have to say to you that I would feel that any state that were in the situation that Israel is in ... that situation being one in which its neigbor states have vowed their complete and utter anihilation, I would find them justified in defending their existance with what ever means they determined necessary.
The land that Israel is been given was given first to them by GOD, then it was lost to them as GOD allowed them to be spoiled by their enemy. That land eventually came into the control of Britian who legitimately won it in battle and Britain then gave it back to Israel for a homeland. Since it is also GOD that sets Kings on their Thrones and allows one kingdom to fall into the hands of another as he goes about the day to day year to year judgement of nations, then it was again GOD who gave the land of Palestine to Israel for a Homeland, and on the very day of their Statehood they were attacked.. and the rest is history, much of it helped along, by Britian's failure to keep her own mandates and her own prejudices against the Jews and her crumbling against the pressure of Arab nations... so eventually the land given to Israel was whittled away until she was undefenseable and then when surrounded on all sides by enemy who had vowed her anihilation and were preparing for attack on all sides, she preemptively struck out and in a 6 day war that would have been impossible except for the fact that God gave her enemies over unto her hands she took back what had been taken from her and a war of attrition began. No nation should have to be subject to neighbors who will not rest until she ceases to exist and be expected not to do what ever it is that she must to ensure her continued existance. Israel is not trying to colonize the Arab world she simply seeks to live in the land that is hers at peace.
So, you ask... "at what point do you draw the line between support for the state of Israel, and support for sinful activities in regards to the current conflict?"
We all have to draw that line at a place where we can look at ourselves in the mirror and also answer to God.
For me, that place is this...I get angry when I see some of the stuff that the state of Israel is doing and has done. When this happens, I pray... I pray that God would have mercy on her and I pray that HIS Kingdom come and HIS will be done on earth as in heaven, and I pray for the Palestinian people that their eyes be opened and they come to know that Christ is the Messiah and God would heal them of the hate that they have for Israel... I realize that there is nothing that is happening to them in this life that is worse than what is going to happen to them after this life because they have rejected the SON of the HOLY ONE of Israel and I know that if they would come to Christ, there would be no hate in them for Israel... the whole middle east problem would cease to exist if the Moslem people and the Jews would come to Christ!
I do not criticize Israel and I do not judge Israel because GOD will deal with Israel.. God is dealing with Israel even now.. for the very reason that they are allowed to be trodden upon is their sin against HIM... but I cannot fail to see that there are two things going on here... One Israel is being punished by God for her sin against HIM, but also the sin of the Gentile Nations is being allowed to become exceedingly sinful... there sin is beiong allowed to come to completion and when that happens judgement is coming to the heathen and repentence, reconcilliation and restoration is coming to the Jews... because GOD has chosen them from the beginning.
Too often we react to and deal with the events of this life from an earthly view... we judge what is right and what is wrong from a limited lineier perspective of time and space and we who are Christ's are supposed to have the mind of Christ and know the will of God and GOD sees the end from the beginning. I cant judge Israel before her time because GOD has a plan and that plan includes the restoration of a remnant that is Israel in the flesh and is going to one day take their place among ALL Israel of which we are part.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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ahar
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
[QUOTE]
We talk about war as if there were a human and moral way to have war. There is no human and moral way to have war. Innocent people die in war whether the war is beteen nations that think themselves civilized and their rules of engagement moral.. or whether between tribes where there are no hold barred and it is every man for himself. War is just not moral or humane period... none the less war and desloations are determined until the end..
This is not a war about boundries or land.. this is Jihad. It would behove us all to come to understand this.
If this was the case, then if you believed that your cause was just it would empower you to do ANYTHING during war and feel justified for it. War is hell, but there are ways to minimise this.
An example from today. Yesterday evening, the Israeli military broadcast over loudhailers in several villages in south lebanon that the inhabitants should leave as quickly as possible as there are Hezbollah in the area and the military wanted to get them. The inhabitants pulled together a few posessions in a bag a hotfooted it out of there to Tyre to the north. Some of them took shelter in the basement of a block of flats. So far so good - Israel attacking the militants and trying to get the civilians out of the way first.
However, this morning Israel learned of the fact that a senior Hezbollah commander had an appartment in Tyre - not that he was currently there, or that something was happening there, just that he had an appartment. Israel's response? Flatten the entire appartment block 'just in case'. Any attempt to check whether the info was true? Any attempt to get civilians living in the appartment block out? Any real military objective? It's currently unknown how many people died though first reports are that many people were hiding in the basement. Yet again, criminally negligent actions.
EDIT: An example of the support the UK is currently giving to Israel - note the paragraph:
"Britain has been used as a staging post for major shipments of bunker-busting bombs from America to Israel. The Israelis want the 5,000lb smart bombs to attack the bunkers being used by Hezbollah leaders in Lebanon. The Government's agreement to the bomb flights was criticised last night by the Liberal Democrats."
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2287228,00.html
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Cheers
Andy
Posts: 290 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2006
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Caretaker
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posted
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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helpforhomeschoolers
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quote:
In your paragraph, it almost sounds as if you support the bombing of civilians as punishment for the actions of Hezbollah: "You want her pilots to identify ambulances from the air and not bomb civilian targets when the civilians have allowed a government to embrace terrorists that hide among women and children and in civillian areas and fire against Israel". Do the actions of Hezbollah sentence all of the people of Lebanon to death?
Hi Anyday: No I am not in support of bombing suvillians as punishment for the actions of Hezbellah.
I also do not believe that the bombing Israel is doing is for punishment, but for getting rid of their attackers, who happen to be hiding and attacking from civillian areas.
I understand that the innocent people will be bombed if they live in an area where a group like Hezbollah is hiding because it is too costly to the other side to forever remain sitting ducks at the mercy of an enemy that does not play by the same rules.
I so not believe that you can remove the local support that these groups in the middle east have. Even enemies will unite over a common enemy the same way a hostage will come to sympathize with the kidnapper. Israel is the enemy. Isreal is the enemy because they are Jews period. We do not understand this.
The nations that surround Israel do not believe that Israel has the right to EXIST. They do not believe that JEWS have the right to EXIST. The believe that it is their Duty to GOD to cause Israel to cease to exisit.
Even the people that hate Hezbollah find common enemy with them in Israel. Sunni and Sheite find common ground on the subject of Israel. This is not about borders and no amount of social good that Israel could ever do would make them to not be the enemy here. So a plan to take away the support of the common man for the terrorist cannot work. We should make no mistake about it.. this issue today with Lebanon is just one battle in a war of many battles. Lots of inocent life has been and will continue to be lost... but this is a war that is a war unto the death... The Bible tells us ultimately whose death... and whether we like it or not.. think that it fair or not... have hearts that bleed for the innocent or not... it is not Israel's death that we will eventually see.
We talk about war as if there were a human and moral way to have war. There is no human and moral way to have war. Innocent people die in war whether the war is beteen nations that think themselves civilized and their rules of engagement moral.. or whether between tribes where there are no hold barred and it is every man for himself. War is just not moral or humane period... none the less war and desloations are determined until the end..
This is not a war about boundries or land.. this is Jihad. It would behove us all to come to understand this.
Da 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined..
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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ahar
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posted
I was reviewing my post in the context of the other replies and I get the feeling I'm the only one here with this view (well, maybe cafferty as well).
I was interested - by critising Israel in the way that I do, does anyone feel I am not living up to my biblical duties to support Israel and Jewish people? If so, at what point do you draw the line between support for the state of Israel, and support for sinful activities in regards to the current conflict?
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Cheers
Andy
Posts: 290 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2006
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ahar
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quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5214046.stm
In the latest military action:
You'll always be able to find articles that only mention certain things rather than go into detail as the news is dynamic - as one article is published, another is taken down. A simple snapshot proves very little. As someone who lives in Britain and actually watches the BBC news, I think that it provides balanced coverage - the BBC dis cover the pro-israel rally in London - how do I know? It was held 10 mintues round the corner from my flat (an area called Kenton) and I saw it on the news. Anyway, as I said before I take my news from a wide variety of sources - the BBC website is generally a good place to link to as it is recognised internationally and the BBC are a darn site better than any US news channel I've ever watched.
Anyway, back to the discussion. Helpforhomeschoolers, I agree with much of what you said - Israel is surrounded by it's enemies and is struggling to survive. Britain has a lot to answer for historically, not least with Israel but also in Iraq (if you can, read the story of how we artifically created the country to facilitate an easy exit for our troops).
The 'western' countries do play by a different set of rules than Hezbollah - but that is what makes them a terrorist organisation. The set of rules has a moral purpose and as nation states (rather than terrorist organisations) we must adhere to these lest we become like those we fight against.
In your paragraph, it almost sounds as if you support the bombing of civilians as punishment for the actions of Hezbollah: "You want her pilots to identify ambulances from the air and not bomb civilian targets when the civilians have allowed a government to embrace terrorists that hide among women and children and in civillian areas and fire against Israel". Do the actions of Hezbollah sentence all of the people of Lebanon to death? How do we tell who really likes Hezbollah and who doesn't - maybe we can ask them to put their hands up before the shells land on them? Remember, Hezbollah, as well as their murderous activities, also undertake widespread social programes (old people's homes etc), and fund schools and hospitals where there are none. The daily life of a ordinary lebanese is a complex moral maze - if your son is diabetic and needs treatment, do you take them to a hospital that may be part funded by Hezbollah or not?
Hezbollah have been thrust on the Lebanese people by Iran and Syria, by a Government partly not willing and certainly not able to get rid of them, and by the necessities of daily life where no such support services currently exist. Are the people of Lebanon blameless? No. But they do not deserve the punishment currently being meted out.
You asked what I'd like to see? Well, I think that the establishment of a barrier such that Israel are currently undertaking is not ideal but the best course of action at the moment until international peacekeepers can move in. I certainly don't support the extent of the bombing and shelling that has been undertaken, and the truly reckless way Israel has done it. Just yesterday a UN outpost was hit by a precision guided missle (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1153291996858&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull).
Do I think that it was targets BECAUSE it was a UN post? No. But I don't believe that it was a stray either - under the current rules of engagement I suspect someone saw some activity and fired without any attempt to see who or what they were firing at - nothing less than criminal negligence.
Caretaker - I'm not sure where to start with your comment about my subtle bias. Do I start with the premise you gave that because I live in the UK and watch the BBC that my views are somehow automatically biased and that I'm not able to use my intelligence to make a reasoned judgement, or with your own subtle biased use of the phrase 'social liberal'? I won't take this any further as I suspect no good will come of it.
I will respond to one paragraph though:
"He might have to face a reality other than presented in the British press. He might have to face the legitimacy of Israel's response to blatant terror closing-in whenever they withdraw from territory. He might come to realize that the Palestinian refugee is merely a tool by the Arab enemies to maintain preassure on Israel. He might come to understand that there are many Israeli Arabs among their peaceful population, especially in Tel Aviv, who have also been murdered by suicide bombers, and are under threat from the rockets raining down on the innocent."
You said that I don't want to face up to the legitimacy of Israels response - well, time and again I have said that it is not the issue of response, but how they go about it. Of course the Palestinians are used as a tool by Arab governments, but this does not make their present situation any less of a tradgedy or lessen their need for a viable state. I also think in my previous posts I mentioned the Israeli arabs, but also mentioned the unequal treatment and prejudice they receive from their country.
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Cheers
Andy
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Caretaker
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Support for Israel:
Support For Israel
In London, several thousand people turned out at a solidarity rally on Sunday. Israeli Ambassador Zvi Haifetz and British Chief Rabbi Jonathan Sacks were among those on the list of speakers. The event followed a large anti-Israel protest held earlier in the day.
In Rome, both right-wing and left-wing Italian politicians joined hundreds of people in a public display of support for the Jewish State. The rally was held outside Rome's main synagogue, in the former Jewish ghetto, on Monday. Among those addressing the crowd were outgoing Israeli ambassador to Italy Ehud Gol, Rome’s mayor Walter Veltroni, leader of the Left-Democrats Piero Fassino, and leader of the rightist National Alliance party, former Foreign Minister Gianfranco Fini.
In North America, the Jewish communities of New York, Philadelphia, Chicago, Washington DC, Toronto, Baltimore and St. Louis, among others, have had, or will soon hold, rallies in solidarity with Israel in its war against Arab terrorism.
Among the largest of the rallies held in the US was the Sunday gathering in Los Angeles, which drew about 10,000 people. Rabbi Marvin Hier of the Simon Wiesenthal Center opened the event and California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger also addressed the crowd.
"While we all regret the loss of innocent life, there is no doubt that Israel has the right to take all appropriate steps to keep its people safe," Gov. Schwarzenegger said.
American soldiers stationed in Iraq have also sent messages of support and encouragement to the IDF via a new web site established to express solidarity with Israel. "Take care of the Hizbullah; we will take care of Iran," wrote one US soldier. Another wrote, "From Iraq, we wish good tidings for you brave IDF soldiers. The American army is 100 percent for Israel."
More than 400 messages from outside Israel have been sent to IDF soldiers via the new site thus far. British citizen John Wilkes, who established the forum, says that he did so primarily out of concern for a friend of his in the IDF.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
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Caretaker
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Will the British Bias Corporation run this news article?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Lebanese Expatriates Support Israel
Lebanese Expatriates Condemn Syria, Iran; and Praise Israel
00:26 Jul 26, '06 / 1 Av 5766
by Nissan Ratzlav-Katz
Many Lebanese expatriate groups have roundly condemned the Hizbullah, Iran and Syria. Some of them are also calling for Israel to press ahead in its military campaign.
The Lebanese Canadian Coordinating Council (LCCC), a coalition of organizations in Canada, has released a statement laying out its vision of what measures should be endorsed by the world community at an international conference on the ongoing warfare in Lebanon. The conference is to be held in Rome on Wednesday, pursuant to a recommendation issued by the United Nations Security Council on July 21, 2006.
Among the measures the LCCC is recommending are the dispatch of international combat forces to Lebanon, armed with the full authority and sufficient firepower to implement all clauses of UN resolution 1559. This would include the to mission to "disarm the Hizbullah group and the Palestinian organizations, and prevent and intercept the transfer of weapons to them from Iran and Syria."
Another agenda item the LCCC called for is "a resolution by the United Nations condemning Syria and Iran, holding them responsible for the escalation leading to the catastrophe that has befallen Lebanon, and making them liable for the damages incurred by the Lebanese people and the costs of reconstruction...." LCCC also seeks to establish an international commission of inquiry "mandated with the task of determining Hizbullah's legal responsibility for the events leading to the cycle of violence inflicted on Lebanon today...."
The LCCC also warned all Lebanese against "the deceitful calls aiming at surrendering to the will of the fundamentalist Hizbullah group and the dictates of its financiers and sponsors in Damascus and Tehran.... To remain silent over their crimes or to turn a blind eye to their practices, violations and threats is itself an act of treason to the nation and an unforgivable crime."
In addition to the LCCC, the press release was endorsed by eleven Lebanese groups from the USA, Europe and Lebanon itself. The LCCC represents the Canadian Lebanese Human Rights Federation, the Canadian Lebanese Free Patriotic Movement (FPM-Canada), the Phoenician Club of Mississauga (PCOM), the Canadian Phoenician Community Services Club (CPCSC), the Canadian Lebanese Christian Heritage Club (CLCHC), the World Lebanese Cultural Union-Canadian Chapter.
The Lebanese Foundation for Peace (LFP), an international organization of Lebanese Christians, issued a press release last week that called upon Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert "to hit them hard and destroy their terror infrastructure. It is not [only] Israel who is fed up with this situation, but the majority of the silent Lebanese in Lebanon who are fed up with Hizbullah and are powerless to do anything out of fear of terror retaliation." The LFP also said that "thousands of volunteers in the Diaspora" are "willing to bear arms and liberate their homeland from [Islamic] fundamentalism," with the logistical support of Israel.
In an interview with Israel National Radio's Tovia Singer, former South Lebanese Army officer, and leader of the Guardians of the Cedars militia, Etienne Sakr ("Abu Arz") called on Israel to press ahead until victory in its offensive against the Hizbullah. He said that, while Lebanon can be rebuilt, Israel must not allow the Islamist elements in the country to survive the war. To do so, he said, would repeat the mistake of the 2000 IDF withdrawal from Southern Lebanon. At the time, speaking before the Knesset, Sakr charged that Israel had "made heroes out of Hizbullah."
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
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Caretaker
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5214046.stm
In the latest military action:
* Israeli warplanes have reportedly hit a UN observation post in south Lebanon. A UN spokesman quoted by Reuters news agency said a bomb hit the post in the Khiam area, but he would not confirm reports from Lebanese security sources that four peacekeepers were killed
* The Israeli army said it had killed a senior Hezbollah commander, Abu Jaafar, in fighting in southern Lebanon
* Earlier the UN had said Israeli forces were now in control of the town of Bint Jbeil after fierce fighting and were moving on the village of Yaroun to the south
* Israel resumed air raids on Beirut, with explosions heard in southern suburbs - a Hezbollah stronghold
* Hezbollah maintained fire of Katyusha rockets into Israel, killing a 15-year-old Arab-Israeli girl in the northern Israeli village of Maghar and striking Haifa with a large salvo
* Hezbollah said 27 of its fighters had been killed as of Monday, but the Israeli military said it had killed "some dozens".
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Minimal mention of the fifteen-year-old girl submerged in the middle of the article and then down the page a slideshow with 9 pictures and individual comments:
"People in Tyre describe life under Israeli bombings".
Fair and balanced would have had equal time for Israelis to also describe life under terrorist attack. The overwhelming emphasis is to picture Israeli aggression and to legitimize Hezbollah terrorism.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
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ahar
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
I wonder if the BBC will carry this story:
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=108334
15 Year Old Girl Killed as Katyusha Strikes Pick Up
17:02 Jul 25, '06 / 29 Tammuz 5766
by Nissan Ratzlav-Katz
A 15-year-old girl in the Druze town of Meghar was killed Tuesday afternoon, when Hizbullah stepped up its rocket attacks on northern Israel.
First place I looked:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5214046.stm
It;s getting late here and I have an early meeting at a client site tomorrow so I'll just cover one thing. Helpforhomeschoolers asked me how old I am - I'm 28 (my birthday was Sunday - spent the afternoon in Regent's park with a Picnic with my wife, very nice). My Dad was in communications in the RAF and deeply involved in several counter insurgency and counter terrorism operations, notably in Cyprus. His experience, and the experience Briatain has had all over the world is that you can, and must, fight guerrilla warefare with MORE rules than conventional warefare. The key to beating your opponent is removing the local support that they have (something the British have failed to do time and time again, in Cyprus, in Northern Island etc) - this is not something that can be achieved through indescriminate bombing and shelling.
Never fear, I'll be back to continue the debate - I'm finding it very informative!
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Cheers
Andy
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Caretaker
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posted
I wonder if the BBC will carry this story:
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=108334
15 Year Old Girl Killed as Katyusha Strikes Pick Up
17:02 Jul 25, '06 / 29 Tammuz 5766
by Nissan Ratzlav-Katz
A 15-year-old girl in the Druze town of Meghar was killed Tuesday afternoon, when Hizbullah stepped up its rocket attacks on northern Israel.
The teenager was killed when the Katyusha struck her family's apartment in a direct hit. Her 30-year-old brother was seriously wounded and her 12-year-old sister suffered light injuries. 20 other people in the town were treated for shock and light injuries. Police are checking reports that a mosque was also damaged in the attack.
One person was injured lightly in a barrage of at least seven rockets on the area of Kiryat Shemona in the Upper Galilee. Missiles fired at Tzfat in the afternoon landed in open fields, although two missiles landed in the city earlier in the day, sending one man into shock. Ten Katyushas struck Ma'alot, south of Tzfat, wounding 11 people. Three people were injured in attacks on Carmiel. Tiberias and Acre also were hit with a number of rockets, but no injuries were reported. In addition, a Katyusha fell near the Israeli Arab city of Shfaram for the first time on Tuesday.
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One should note that the girl killed was from a Druze village. These are Israeli Arabs living peacefully in Israel, and even serving in the IDF:
Druze in Israel
The Druze community in Israel is officially recognized as a separate religious entity with its own courts (with jurisdiction in matters of personal status - marriage, divorce, maintenance and adoption) and spiritual leadership. Their culture is Arab and their language Arabic but they opted against mainstream Arab nationalism in 1948 and have since served (first as volunteers, later within the draft system) in the Israel Defense Forces and the Border Police.
Worldwide there are probably about one million Druze living mainly in Syria and Lebanon, with 104,000 in Israel, including about 18,000 in the Golan (which came under Israeli rule in 1967) and several thousands who emigrated to Europe and North and South America.
The Druze community in Israel has a special standing among the country's minority groups, and members of the community have attained high-level positions in the political, public and military spheres.
Or this story:
http://directory.kol-israel.com/asites/?
Soldiers, Assulin said, took several guerrillas captive during the fighting. He said that there were still pockets of resistance on the outskirts of the village, and most of the Hizbullah guerrillas left inside, just under 100, were hiding in the Kasbah marketplace.
The IDF was still encountering Hizbullah gunmen who were shooting form inside mosques, hospitals, and schools. They take advantage of the population, Assulin said, "But the IDF has high moral values and does its best to avoid harming anyone uninvolved."
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The IDF was still encountering Hizbullah gunmen who were shooting form inside mosques, hospitals, and schools.
Nope nothing about Israeli victims on the BBC:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Drew Thanks for those posts! Andy, you said:
quote:
It's probably true that a part of the support for Israel from the Brtish Government comes from our alliance with the US, but to call the fact that the government is pro israel a joke is to demonstrate a lack of knowledge of the past actions of this Labour government. Time and again the current labour administration has supported the actions of Israel and been given a large amount of political flak for this - the left wing (and pretty anti Israel) of the labour party is exasperated with the current leadership over this and they are continually complaining about it. The previous Conservative government also had a large number of very pro israel ministers.
You are correct, I do not know the internal struggles of the Labor party in Britain over the issue of Israel or the struggles between left and right conservativism and Liberalism in Britain.. I suspect that they are much the same as the struggles between left and right here in America.
Still I feel that the British government is the root cause of much of this that the world must deal with in regard to the situation in the middle east today and what ever they are doing today is still too little too late and I believe that it is as Drew has said that there is a subtle media bias and prejudice at work here as we view this current situation.
Also know, that I do not either hold my own country without fault. Our own needs and agenda's also are a huge factor in our policy toward Israel. Our dependance on foreign oil and our need for strategic positioning in the Gulf have caused our own government to pressure Israel into treaties and cease fires and disengagements that they never should have been forced into in the first place and I have no doubt that this nation will have to answer to GOD Almighty for it!
You say that this is not about Israel's right to defend its borders but about how she goes about defending them, but I see that her restraint is and has been more than any other nation would have exerted given the same circumstance.
What would be enough restraint for you? The truth is that Israel and the West and most of the civilized world plays by very different rules than these that Israel is fighting with.
This fight that Israel is engaged in... and I mean the fight that she has been engaged in since the day of her statehood is a fight where her opponents have no rules of engagement... it is anything goes... attack a new nation that has no military from all sides on the day of its birth? You want to talk about Lebanon's worn down military.. let's talk about attacking Israel on the day of her statehood! You want her pilots to identify ambulances from the air and not bomb civilian targets when the civilians have allowed a government to embrace terrorists that hide among women and children and in civillian areas and fire against Israel. Israel is engaged in a war with people who train children to carry bombs and automatic weapons and to use them. Israel is engaged in war with a people where women carry grenades, and bombs and automatic weapons under their burkas and think it righteous to attack civiliian buildings and shopping areas and public transportation in the middle of the day where there are nothing but civillian causualties! Israel is at war with a people that have vowed that they will never stop fighting until she ceases to exisit and a people who think it nothing to make treaties and agreements that suit their own agendas at the time and then break them when the time is to their advantage.
How old are you Andy? Have you lived through and seen the war of attrition that Israel has lived through? You cannot fight guerrilla warfare by the same rules that you fight other kinds of wars.
quote:
Israel has a responsibility as a nation state to act in a measured way to achieve it's objectives with the minimum amount of cilivian deaths.
Israel's objectives are to live peacfully in a land that is hers and that would require no amount of civillian deaths if the nations around her would acknowledge her right to do so... instead they have vowed that she cannot exisit and that is their objective and they have shown and continue to show that there is absolutely no limit to what they will do to acheive this objective even to the threat of using nuclear weapons and dirty bombs, even to the point of brainwashing, and sacrificing their own women and children.
You cannot ask Israel to act in a measured way when she is surrounded by an enemy that does not use the same measure. To do so is to ask her to commit suicide.
This is not about borders and refugees and occupied territories. This is about the removal of a nation and a people from the face of the earth and that is the objective of Israel's enmey.
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Caretaker
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posted
There is an engrained prejudice against Israel, within the British press. This subtle prejudice is what has shaped Andy's social liberal bias, and his filtration of the news.
Just an example of their bias towards Israel's enemies:
BBC:
Some 380 Lebanese and up to 40 Israelis have died in 14 days of conflict, which began after Hezbollah captured two Israeli soldiers in a cross-border raid on 12 July.
This legitimizes the terrorists, through the use of the words captured and raid, as if they were a legitimate military organization on a legitimate military operation.
From the Israel news:
Livni told Rice that a ceasefire would only be considered after the return of the two IDF soldiers it kidnapped on July 12,
Terrorists kidnap, legitimate military organizations capture.
The use of the terms is very subtle, but over the course of years the citizens of Great Briton have been indoctrinated in social liberalism through media bias.
The BBC has reported the thousands of rockets which have ben firedinto Israel. However their primary focus is not on Israel's casulties from terrrorist attacks, but on the Lebanese casulties from Israel's response.
Ingrained media prejudice against Israel.
It is no wonder that Andy does not want to hear about history. He might have to face a reality other than presented in the British press. He might have to face the legitimacy of Israel's response to blatant terror closing-in whenever they withdraw from territory. He might come to realize that the Palestinian refugee is merely a tool by the Arab enemies to maintain preassure on Israel. He might come to understand that there are many Israeli Arabs among their peaceful population, especially in Tel Aviv, who have also been murdered by suicide bombers, and are under threat from the rockets raining down on the innocent.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tel_Aviv
Tel Aviv-Yafo (Hebrew: תֵּל אָבִיב-יָפוֹ; Arabic: تَلْ أَبِيبْ-يَافَا Tal Abib-Yafa) is an Israeli city on the coast of the Mediterranean Sea. Tel Aviv is also the main part of the largest and most populous metropolitan area in Israel, known as Gush Dan (Dan Bloc).
Tel Aviv-Yafo's jurisdiction is 50,553 dunams (50.6 km² or 19.5 mi²). The population density is 7,445 people per km² According to the Israel Central Bureau of Statistics (CBS), as of May 2006, the city's population stood at 379,000, growing at an annual rate of one percent. 96.1% percent of residents are Jewish, while 3.0% are Arab Muslims and 0.9% are Arab Christians. According to some estimates, about 50,000 unregistered foreign workers live in Tel Aviv. According to a 2001 estimate, the metropolitan area of Tel Aviv is the city with the largest Jewish population in the world, with 2.5 million Jews (New York City's metropolitan area, in second place with 1.4 million Jews according to a 2002 study, is the largest Jewish population center in the Diaspora) [1] [2]
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
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Caretaker
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5212158.stm
'No outright criticism'
Following her surprise visit to Beirut on Monday, in which she held talks with Lebanon's Prime Minister Fouad Siniora, she has been stressing the importance that innocent civilians should not be harmed.
Israel is acting with tremendous restraint, were they targeting civilian populations there would be thousands upon thousands dead
Steve Gross, US
However, our correspondent says there is no suggestion that she will tell Mr Olmert that Israel must halt its military operations, or that she will make any public criticism of Israel's actions.
The BBC's World Affairs Editor John Simpson in Jerusalem says it is understood that Ms Rice is telling Israel that the US will allow it more time to continue its military operations against Hezbollah militants in southern Lebanon.
Some 380 Lebanese and up to 40 Israelis have died in 14 days of conflict, which began after Hezbollah captured two Israeli soldiers in a cross-border raid on 12 July.
'Hezbollah cowardice'
The UN's aid chief Jan Egeland has accused Israel of using excessive force, but on Monday he accused of Hezbollah of contributing to the problem by what he called "cowardly blending in among women and children".
"I heard there was a statement they were proud they had lost very few fighters, and that it was the civilians bearing the brunt of this. I don't think you want to be proud of having many more children and women than armed men [killed]," Mr Egeland said, speaking in Beirut.
Israeli troops push into Lebanon as their offensive continues
In pictures
The UN has launched a $150m (£81m) aid appeal for Lebanon and the US has announced its own $30m package to ease the suffering of civilians.
Mr Egeland said the money was needed to help feed and shelter about 800,000 civilians caught up in the conflict.
About $24m was on behalf on Unicef for children who have been displaced inside Lebanon or who have fled to Syria.
Mr Egeland said he was asking the Israelis for safe passage for aid ships to enter the ports of Tripoli and Tyre.
A White House spokesperson said the US was also working with Israeli and Lebanese officials to open up humanitarian corridors in Lebanon, after President George W Bush promised ships and helicopters to provide aid to Lebanon.
The EU has already pledged $12.6m in aid while on Monday the UK increased its pledge to £5m.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
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Caretaker
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posted
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=108293
Rice was slated to meet with Prime Minister Ehud Olmert on Tuesday, hours after an initial meeting with Foreign Secretary Tzippy LIvni on Monday evening in which she expressed U.S. concerns for Lebanese civilians affected by the war.
“We are concerned about the humanitarian situation,” she said, “and nobody wants to see innocent civilians harmed.” Israel opened a humanitarian corridor in its seaside blockade two days ago in order to allow foreign nationals to leave Lebanon and international aid into the country. Most countries evacuated thousands of their citizens from Lebanon last week.
Olmert said Tuesday morning before meeting with Rice that Israel would try to work with the U.S. to relieve “humanitarian difficulties”, but reiterated that Israel will carry out “the most severe measures” against Hizbullah terrorists firing rocket attacks at Israel.
According to a political source, Olmert is expected to present Israel’s conditions for a ceasefire in his meeting with the U.S. Secretary of State. He is also expected to express Israel’s support for the temporary installation of an international force comprised of NATO soldiers in south Lebanon.
Rice is also expected to meet with Defense Minister Amir Peretz and then travel to Ramallah to meet with Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas, chairman of the minority Fatah faction.
Livni told Rice that a ceasefire would only be considered after the return of the two IDF soldiers it kidnapped on July 12, dismantling the Hizbullah terror organization and deployment of the Lebanese army in the south of the country. Hizbullah has controlled the region since Israel pulled out six years ago, in direct violation of United Nations Security Council Resolution 1559.
The resolution, passed in 2004, calls for the disbanding and disarming of all domestic and foreign militias, and for the government of Lebanon to exercise control over all Lebanese territory.
“We have learned that peace must be based on long-term and stable principles, an end to the violence and a resolution of the humanitarian problems,” Rice responded, adding that Resolution 1559 had already spelled out the solution.
U.S. President George W. Bush has said he will not support any deal that leaves Hizbullah terrorists on Israel’s border.
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http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=108269
A U.N. official charged Hizbullah terrorists of acting "cowardly" by exploiting civilians. His accusation helps balance criticism that Israel has caused a humanitarian crisis in Lebanon.
European countries and foreign media, from the outset of Israel's retaliation to the Hizbullah terrorist war against Israel, have charged that the Jewish state has caused a humanitarian crisis in Lebanon.
However, Jan Egeland, head of the United Nationals humanitarian efforts, accused Hizbullah of "cowardly blending" among women and children." He said he heard that the terrorists were pleased that civilians suffered more than their own terrorists. "I don't think anyone should be proud of having many more children and women dead than armed men," he added.
Egeland did not spare criticism of Israel, which he said has killed innocent civilians in its attacks on Hizbullah strongholds. Visiting American Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice told Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni Monday night that it is important to prevent a humanitarian crisis in Lebanon. Israel already has opened up a corridor to help medical supplies and food enter the country."
Secretary Rice is scheduled to speak with Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and Palestinian Authority (PA) chairman Mahmoud Abbas on Tuesday.
The charges by the United Nations official that Hizbullah is violating the civil rights of Lebanese are an important turn in the war of public opinion and come only one day after a British Broadcasting Corp. (BBC) reporter told listeners that he saw Hizbullah terrorists exploiting civilians.
Israel has launched an unprecedented campaign to explain to foreign media and to Jews in the Diaspora that Hizbullah executed acts of war against Israeli citizens that require a sovereign nation to defend itself.
Prime Minister Olmert told a visiting Jewish delegation Monday, "I don't recall such an event in which it was absolutely clear to [so many people] who were united in supporting the State of Israel and accepting the Israeli reaction as inevitable and totally natural...The attacks both in the south and the north were an outright violation of the basic fundamental right of the State of Israel...and it was an act of war.
"A nation that respects itself cannot afford to accept these...[terrorist] threats....
We will fight Hizbullah and we will not stop unless we will able to guarantee the security and safety of the State of Israel even if I have to fight a year or two years.
"We are going to kill them one by one.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
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ahar
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
The British Government is pretty Pro Israel?? Forgive me but that is such a joke. The British government's pro Israeli policies at this point are tied to nothing today except their alliance with the US, and it is too little too late!
As I said before in an earlier post, a large part of this mess is due to the historical incompetence of Britain around the middle east. The middle east is just one of many areas around the world where this is the case - the past actions of Britain are very often shameful (as are many other countries).
It's probably true that a part of the support for Israel from the Brtish Government comes from our alliance with the US, but to call the fact that the government is pro israel a joke is to demonstrate a lack of knowledge of the past actions of this Labour government. Time and again the current labour administration has supported the actions of Israel and been given a large amount of political flak for this - the left wing (and pretty anti Israel) of the labour party is exasperated with the current leadership over this and they are continually complaining about it. The previous Conservative government also had a large number of very pro israel ministers.
It still comes back to the distinction between Israel's right to defend itself and the actions it undertakes to do this. Just yesterday, two ambulances, in the process of transferring patients, were blown up by airstrikes. The first one was hit by one missle, and two minutes later the other one was hit. It was at night and they both had illuminated their lights and their red cross symbols.
Do I think that Israel has a policy of attacking civilians and ambulances specifically? No of course not, but it does display a criminal lack of care time and time again. I suspect the pilots saw the vehicles, and under the rules of engagement that they have been given, fired before making any attempt to identify the vehicles.
It is not enough to acknowledge that Hezbollah are hiding in civilian areas and then carry on regardless with reckless abandon, blaming any causualties on them. Israel has an obligation to undertake actions that reduce to an absolute minimum the number of civilian causualties - Israel is not, and very frequently does not, do this. Not just in Lebanon, but across the west bank and Gaza.
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Cheers
Andy
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helpforhomeschoolers
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posted
The British Government is pretty Pro Israel?? Forgive me but that is such a joke. The British government's pro Israeli policies at this point are tied to nothing today except their alliance with the US, and it is too little too late!
It was The British government created the situation that is today because they did not stand by their own mandate! The British government melted under Arab pressure and began dividing what they first gave for a Jewish Homeland in the first place! The British Government point blank stated that it would not be good for the Middle East to become as Jewish as Europe had become! The British Government allowed ships full of Jews to die at sea rather than allow them to come back to Israel.
You want to make Lebanon the innocent in this? Lebanon was occupied by Israel for 20 years you say? I say hogwash.. After the 6 day war Lebanon allowed its land to be used for the reorganization of militants and the likes of Vassar Arafat and the PLO who had lost their place in Jordan's civil war and took up residence in Lebanon, and from this place of residence continued to wage war on Israel. Israel is surrounded by enemy on all sides and there is the sea... if Israel is being attacked from the north then Israel will defend its borders on the North and that defense will include preemptive strikes when necessary. There is no country in the world that would sit outside the border and continually defend attacks without seeking to cross the boarder and eliminate the source of attack! It was the Palestinian onslaught of refugees and militants like Arafat and the PLO that caused civil war in Lebanon as it had done in Jordan, but let us also not forget that there needn't have been a Palestinian refugee situation in the first place. The Israeli's had offered citizenship to the Palestinians and the Palestinians did not want it... they were instead made pawns by their neighbors who sought to make them refugees... beckoning them in Jordan and Syria... not to give them a home, but to refugee camps where they would become something to cause the world to pity... the Palestinian people were exploited for the gain of a few who wanted power and control of all Palestine and whose hate for Israel would not allow them to share the land, but would cause them to call for the complete annihilation of the Jews and the Jewish state. Lebanon was not without a choice! Lebanon allowed itself to be launch pad for the PLO and Lebanon allowed itself to enter agreements with Egypt and Syria that would result in creating an micro state within Lebanon that was the under the control of Arafat. Israel did not create the Palestinian problem that would lead to a 16 year long civil war in Lebanon! Britain created it by first mandating the Homeland of Ertz Israel and then bending to Arab pressure to continually divide the land into increasingly smaller and smaller portions until they created an Israeli state that was strategically undependable.
When Israel attacked the Beirut airport it was not un provoked, it was because the PLO had been hijacking planes and Lebanon had made a home for the PLO.
Let us remember that it was Lebanon that called for Syrian intervention in their civil war in the first place; Whether the US and France say the presence of Syria in Lebanon is co-opted and that Lebanon is nothing more than a puppet to Syria is immaterial. Syria did not occupy Lebanon, they were invited into Lebanon to strengthen their military presence because of the stress on Lebanon's military from within and from without!
There presence there was sanctioned by their own parliament. So I just can’t buy oh poor Lebanon!
Further, when Israel invaded Lebanon in the early 80's it was not unprovoked... the PLO had tried to assassinate the Israeli Ambassador, which was a final straw in a series of attacks made against Israel by the PLO who was based in Lebanon! Israel occupied a buffer zone which was needed because of the PLO and because of Syria. When Israel pulled out of that buffer zone, Syria took their place.
The UN resolutions that called for the withdrawal of Israel and Syria from Lebanon also called for the destruction of Hezbollah, but this has not happened and as long as Lebanon chooses to be a home for the many Israeli hating militias of the Middle East they will have to deal with the possibility of invasion from Israel. The same is true of Jordan or of Syria or of Egypt.. If there is attack against Israel from those countries then they can expect Israel to retaliate, and even to preemptively invade!
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ahar
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
ahar:
Actually I feel that Israel is using a great deal of restraint.
I certainly think that there are people with the Government and the military that want to go further, and are being held back.
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Cheers
Andy
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WhiteEagle
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posted
ahar:
Actually I feel that Israel is using a great deal of restraint.
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ahar
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quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
Andy if you are geeting your perspective from British journalism, then it is hardly fair and balanced towards Israel.
It is not Israel which is hiding weapons in Mosques.
It is not Israel which is firng multitudes of rockets, adjacent to civilian populations, and indiscriminantly into populations of innocent men, women, and children.
You will want to ignore history, because it supports Israel.
http://www.melaniephillips.com/articles/archives/001204.html
Melanie Philips, quite frankly, is known as the most rabid pro-israel journalist there is. Israel could start boling babies for fun and she'd still never utter a word of critism. She hates the Guardian newspaper (mentioned in the clip from her article you cut n paste) and would disagree with them on any issue just out of pure spite. She also hates the institution of the BBC and would just a well see them closed downfor a whole host of reasons, not just their news reporting. Having seen her many times on discussion programmes, I would say that she is the least impartial journalist you could find.
I take my news from the wide variety of journalistic sources, including the Daily Mail (a very pro Israel paper) in which she writes. The BBC is always accused of bias, usually by all sides of any debate. Their view is that if both sides are accusing them of bias, they're usually somewhere in the middle. So it is with reporting on Israel - the board of british jewish deputies (kinda like the top jewish organisation in the country) is always accusing the BBC of bias. But then so is the Muslim council of Great Britain and other Muslim organisations. Not sure if you can get it in the US, but at least watch the BBC News for a while and make up your own mind. At least read the BBC News website http://news.bbc.co.uk/
To be honest, I don't want to go into the history because it won't get us anywhere - there seem to be two versions - one very pro israel and one very pro arab and I've not found anything in between. As is the way of these things, I doubt either of them are entirely true.
Not being a history professor I don't have the skills or resources to go back to the primary material and undertake the years worth of comprehensive research to make my own mind up. I suspect the vast majority of people are in this position, so we have to content ourselves with history books written by other people, inevitably with a certain view point. We tend to choose sources of information that chime with our views anyway, so the whole exercise becomes pointless - any debate turns into a case of repeating the arguments read from books written by other people.
And yet again we come back to the central point I make. The fact that Hezbollah are firing rockets in to Israel and killing civilians does NOT give it carte blanche to do anything that it wants. It has the right to defend itself and undertake the actions necessary to stop hezbollah, but that does not give it the right to undertake a lot of the things it is doing at the moment. Just this morning, several more civilians were killed and injured in indescriminate shelling of a town - the reason? Hezbollah have 'some kind' of presence there. Was there an effort to find out what this presence was? No. Was there an effort to hit the one or two buildings that would achieve their aim? No. One evil act (firing rockets into Israel) does not excuse another.
The British Government is pretty pro-israel, and is one of the few countries in the UN on the same side as the US and Israel in this. However, after a visit for the last few days to both Israel and Lebanon, even our Foreign Secretary Kim Howls (our equivalent of Condi Rice) has said that Israel is going too far at the moment.
Even Melanie Philips admits very many British Jews don't think that Israel is right in it's response
http://www.melaniephillips.com/articles-new/
"Yet Britain’s Jews still remain muted. This is much more than the usual craven cultural cringe that is the default position of the Jewish leadership in this country. It is because, even among that swathe of the community that does not harbour the hatred of Israel displayed in the Times advert, many are wringing their own hands over Israel’s ‘disproportionate’ response."
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Cheers
Andy
Posts: 290 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2006
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