Christian Message Boards: Democracy-where is it in the bible?

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Posted by sevenlamps (Member # 6715) on :

In the book of Daniel chapter we find the story of King Nebuchadnezzar's dream. The King's dream was of a statue made up of different metals. These metals represented successive manmade kingdoms which would rule on the earth. A combination of historical and biblical research show that these kingdoms did indeed exist on the earth. Then the King saw a stone hewn without human hands fall from heaven and smash the statue on the feet. The statue was broken to pieces and blown away in the wind. The stone then grew up and filled the whole earth. Daniel was given the interpretation of the dream. These kingdoms correspond to ancient babylon,persia,greece,rome, and modern day democracy. We can verify this by examining some of the influences of these kingdoms. Babylon was the birthplace of the occult. Do we have that influence in democracy? Yes, we do. Persia passed unrighteous laws(today it is sharia law)Do we have that influence in democracy? Yes,we do. Rulings supporting abortion, gambling,pornography,greed,etc. are prevalent. Greece was notorious for intellectual arrogance and hedonism(pleasure seeking). Do we have this influence in democracy? Yes,we do.We have thousands of colleges teaching things that oppose the true disciplines of the bible. And affluence has distracted many from doing the will of God. Rome was a military giant. Do we see that influence in democracy? Yes,we do. The feet were made of iron and clay. But these two did not mingle, or mix.Iron represents military might. But clay represents man as man was made from clay. In democracy,man is the ruler. In the these other kingdoms emperors ruled who were worshipped by men. So who is being worshipped in democracy. Mankind is being worshipped. Interestingly, the founders knew this and did not want a democracy for America. So they set up a republic. The difference is the source of their power. In a republic the source is God through His instructions to the people. The founders said this government would be suitable only for a christian people. There is no doubt by our history that we are a christian republic. But many people are acting like we are a democracy. President Bush keeps referring to the establishment of a democracy in Iraq. This is not God's will. American taxpayers are footing the bill for this. But this is not what God created America to do. Our government is trying to set up a non-christian democracy in Iraq when we are actually a christian republic. Christians are to resist this 'statue' politics and support kingdom politics. The timing of the destruction of this statue system is given by where the stone hits the statue. On the feet. So it is in the days of democracy that this statue system and all of its influences are suddenly destroyed. To verify this I refer you to Daniel 2:44. And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever. This applies to us individually as well. We take the word of God and smash all these inflences in our own lives and let it grow and fill us completely. Hope you learned something new in this discussion. Feel free to comment so we can all hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches(Revelation 1-3).

Posted by corriee (Member # 6705) on :

Thank you for posting this. I learned alot from it and the way you presented it is a whole new thought pattern for me.
I have one question about Persia. You wrote Persia passed unrighteous laws(today it is sharia law)Do we have that influence in democracy? Yes,we do."
Could you expound on that a little more, I don't quite understand what an example of that would be.

Posted by BrianGrass1234 (Member # 5845) on :

I guess I don't quite get it. Do you mean democracy as majority rule, or do you mean democracy as western civilization or the US. Then the part about a christian republic. I thought most of the founders were some sort of generic deists not necessarily christian. Then I don't get the link between the evils that happened in past nations has to do with the democratic process. Individuals commit sins, a system cannot be sinful, it is just a tool for individuals. Its like saying a gun is evil. A gun is a tool that can be used for good or evil, but is not itself good or evil.

Is the point that we as individuals who live in a democratic nation (I know not purely democratic, but we do vote and are responsible for our votes) need to be careful what people we elect and what laws and policies we support as to not let our government to do evil based upon our votes? I can see not electing persons to office that behave in a way that is not pleasing to God, but would caution against legislating morality. Know that just like the gun, the government is a tool of violence, and as christians, I don't believe we should be using violence against others to control their behavior. Each individual is responsible for their actions and God's perfect judgement with carry out his perfect justice. He does not need us to do this job for him. So when you talk about democracy supporting gambling, pornography, greed, etc. I hope your talking about not electing individuals who represent these things and not talking about outlawing them.

And yes democracy is bad, a representative republic that is very limited in what it can do is much better. Better yet, get rid of coercive government all together.

Posted by sevenlamps (Member # 6715) on :

Thank you for that question Corrie. That statement did seem to be a little vague. Ancient Persia did not have sharia law as that did not come about until after Mohammed appeared in the 7th century. The bible reveals that leaders in persia who were jealous of Daniel's position tried to trap him by persuading the king to make unrighteous decrees. Sharia law is not a major problem in the USA right now but everyone should be aware that many of the 5 million muslims in our country would support sharia law so that is a potential influence in our country. Add to that a lot of people who would also support the muslims right to believe what they want and the base grows even bigger. And here is something that is not a secret but many people are not aware of it. The masonic lodge has 32 degrees of membership in their organization. At each level there is an initiation ceremony and new beliefs added to the advancing member. Some of this resembles christianity but much of it is rather bizarre. There are secret codes,names,gestures,and activities that identify one as a mason. As the mason advances he is told that Jesus is not God but Allah.At the end he is told that lucifer is god. There are many books available written by ex-masons that confirm this. It is a very deceptive group but very powerful because of their secret activities. They have over 20,000 lodges in every nation on earth. They are represented on our dollar bill by the bottom row of blocks on the pyramid. They are subordinate to even more powerful organizations like the illuminati which I think is around the fourth level of the pyramid. The organizations of the pyramid are international,mostly european. That is why europe has generated two world wars. Because of this 'shadow government' they have deceived a whole continent and now they are working on the rest of the world.Europe is post christian and the USA is sliding in that direction also. To show you the seriousness of this situation, my brother joined a masonic lodge about 7 years ago. When he told me I informed him that it was a cult and that he should get out immediately. He replied that there were 3 pastors in his lodge. This brother has always struggled with his faith so it doesn't surprise me that he was drawn into it. I pray for his soul and hope the Lord will save him. The shriner's who raise money for children's hospitals are a public relations front group for the masonic lodge who use their benefactory activities to bring a good reputation to the organization. But remember, we are not saved by works but by grace through faith in the blood of Jesus. Psalms chapter 2 talks about this rebellion of the kings of the earth. The bible says don't be anxious about anything. We are to bring everything to him in prayer, and He will direct our paths. To him who has been given much, much is expected. As God's judgements fall on the earth, He will be looking for those whose hearts are upright before Him. The church will rise up clothed in the glory of God as we obey His calling. We must die to self. If my people, who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray,and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear them and heal their land. As we allow traditional barriers to collapse and just surrender to God and gather to pray, the angels will join with us to defeat these principalities and powers. What a glorious day is coming.

Posted by sevenlamps (Member # 6715) on :

Brian, you also bring up a good point aboput the founders. About 60 years ago as liberalism began to spread,many people tried to publish lies about the founders saying they were deists and agnostics. But it wasn't true. They are doing the same thing today with the bible and Jesus as you are aware from recent events. If you go to wallbuilders.com David Barton has material available that can help you research this. I have some of this in my possession and I can confirm that it is top of the line stuff. He has been called to the Supreme Court during law suits to verify the accuracy of historical documents when they are challenged by some of these radical groups who rely on false publications to further their agendas. His DVD's will amaze you as they reveal a side of our American history that you have never heard before. They are loaded with info and you will be quite satisfied. If you visit his headquarters in Aledo Texas they will give you a tour of his air conditioned vault with books and relics from the colonial days.

Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :

Yeshua never authorized the setting up an earthly government by the Church He established. He alone will one day set up His Kingdom and Government and in that day it will never end.

Until that day, every born again believer is a pilgrim and a stranger looking for a place to call home.

I am very acquainted with David Barton but there is much he is wrong on about American history. I have heard him speak many times in our 30 years of Home schooling.

America was a predominately Christian Nation at its inception but America has never had a Christian Government.

One of the most common statements from the "Religious Right" is that they want this country to "return to the Christian principles on which it was founded". However, a little research into American history will show that this statement is a lie. The men responsible for building the foundation of the United States had little use for Christianity, and many were strongly opposed to it. They were men of The Enlightenment, not men of Christianity. They were Deists who did not believe the bible was true.

When the Founders wrote the nation's Constitution, they specified that "no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States." (Article 6, section 3) This provision was radical in its day-- giving equal citizenship to believers and non-believers alike. They wanted to ensure that no single religion could make the claim of being the official, national religion, such as England had. Nowhere in the Constitution does it mention religion, except in exclusionary terms. The words "Jesus Christ, Christianity, Bible, and God" are never mentioned in the Constitution-- not once.

The Declaration of Independence gives us important insight into the opinions of the Founding Fathers. Thomas Jefferson wrote that the power of the government is derived from the governed. Up until that time, it was claimed that kings ruled nations by the authority of God. The Declaration was a radical departure from the idea of divine authority.

The 1796 treaty with Tripoli states that the United States was "in no sense founded on the Christian religion" (see below). This was not an idle statement, meant to satisfy muslims-- they believed it and meant it. This treaty was written under the presidency of George Washington and signed under the presidency of John Adams.

Art. 11.
As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/treaty_tripoli.html

None of the Founding Fathers were atheists. Most of the Founders were Deists, which is to say they thought the universe had a creator, but that he does not concern himself with the daily lives of humans, and does not directly communicate with humans, either by revelation or by sacred books. They spoke often of God, (Nature's God or the God of Nature), but this was not the God of the bible. They did not deny that there was a person called Jesus, and praised him for his benevolent teachings, but they flatly denied his divinity.

Posted by sevenlamps (Member # 6715) on :

You must remember Helives the parable of the sower and the enemy who came in and planted tares. The constituition states the Congress shall make no law pertaining to an establishment of religion nor prohibit the free exercise therof. Over 100 years ago a Supreme Court ruled unanimously that this was a christian nation after being presented sufficient evidence for it. The American revolution was a success because God was in it through the heartfelt prayers of the settlers here. In contrast the French revolution a short time later was a huge failure. when you compare docuents about these two conflicts one was marked with savagery while the other was more out of necessity

Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :

If this were supposed to be a Christian Nation, shouldn't there be some symbols somewhere in and on government buildings that reflect that?

“In God WE Thrust” is very simple to understand when you understand the Illuminati and the Masonic lodge.

If they had meant Yahweh or Yeshua that is what they would have said….

“In Yahweh WE Thrust” or “In Yeshua we Thrust “

But in the Mason and Illuminati teachings God is Lucifer…..

Quote by Albert Pike(below high lighted), the only Confederate General to have a memorial Statue in Washington DC, founder of the Ku Klux Klan, high ranking Mason.

'That which we must say to the crowd is -- We worship a God, but it is the God that one adores without superstition.

'To you, Sovereign Grand Inspectors General, we say this, that you may repeat it to the Brethren of the 32nd, 31st and 30th degrees -- The Masonic religion should be, by all of us initiates of the high degrees, maintained in the of purity of the Luciferian doctrine.

'If Lucifer were not God, would Adonay whose deeds prove his cruelty, perfidy, and hatred of man, barbarism and repulsion for science, would Adonay and his priests, calumniate him?

'Yes, Lucifer is God, and unfortunately Adonay is also God. For the eternal law is that there is no light without shade, no beauty without ugliness, no white without black, for the absolute can only exist as two Gods: darkness being necessary to light to serve as its foil as the pedestal is necessary to the statue, and the brake to the locomotive.

'In analogical and universal dynamics one can only lean on that which will resist. Thus the universe is balanced by two forces which maintain its equilibrium: the force of attraction and that of repulsion. These two forces exist in physics, philosophy and religion. And the scientific reality of the divine dualism is demonstrated by the phenomena of polarity and by the universal law of sympathies and antipathies. That is why the intelligent disciples of Zoroaster, as well as, after them, the Gnostics, the Manicheans and the Templars have admitted, as the only logical metaphysical conception, the system of the two divine principles fighting eternally, and one cannot believe the one inferior in power to the other.

'Thus, the doctrine of Satanism is a heresy; and the true and pure philosophic religion is the belief in Lucifer, the equal of Adonay; but Lucifer, God of Light and God of Good, is struggling for humanity against Adonay, the God of Darkness and Evil.'"

They teach that all men can knell at the same alter because Yeshua (Jesus) is no better or worse than Allah, Mohamed, Buddha, Confuses, Zeus, Apollo, Pope or any other entity you consider “GOD”

America was allowed to come into being to fulfill scripture. to talk about America one must first understand the evil design of the illuminati and the Masonic lodge from the foundation.

The United States: A Country founded on Paganism

http://www.nobeliefs.com/pagan.htm

All symbols chosen to represent this Nation “America” are pagan in source.

The Ten Commandments subterfuge

The Christian hullaballoo concerning the Ten Commandments and the U.S. comes mainly from the very few references to Moses and the tablets that appear on the Supreme Court building (and a few other state courthouses). Deceptively, Christians will trot out the image of Moses without the context from which the statue sits (it always amazes me how Christians love to accuse others of out-of-context ploys when they, themselves, always get the context wrong.). By using this subterfuge technique, political Christians want you to believe that, somehow, Moses and the tablets on the Supreme Court building represents proof that U.S. laws derived from the Ten Commandments. Nothing could stand further from the truth.

In the first place, Moses does not sit alone on the Supreme Court Frieze. Christians don't want you to know that Moses sits next to two Pagans-- Confucius and Solon:

This sculptural frieze appears on the back of the Supreme Court Building (the east side), not the main entrance, where you would expect him to appear if the sculptor intended him to hold a special place. Moses sits next to Confucius and Solon holding two blank tablets. These fellows represent three lawgivers from the East, thus they appear on the east side of the building. Characters from the fable of the Tortoise and the Hare also appear on this frieze (go figure).
Moreover, Christians don't tell you that figures of 17 other lawgivers appear on the Supreme Court building. Notorious pagans such as Hammurabi, Menes, Lycurgus, Draco, Augustus, and Justinian also appear among the lawgivers. Even Mohammed holding the Koran appears on the building! (Can you imagine the uproar that would occur if U.S. Muslims declared that Constitutional law derived from Allah and the Holy Koran?) Friezes appear on all four sides of the building and on the inside. The Moses statue appears no larger than any of the other lawgivers. According to the Curator's office, Weinman designed for the Courtroom friezes, a procession of "great lawgivers of history," from many civilizations, to portray the development of secular law. (bold characters, mine).
Also in the Great Hall of the Supreme Court building, one will find ornamental metopes which include some our beloved Pagan Gods and Goddesses (Minerva, Zeus, Mercury, and Juno). Not a single Judeo-Christian God appears anywhere.

As for the main entrance to the Supreme Court, Moses does not appear there at all. Instead, we see on the main door, relief panels that depict Pagan reflections such as the Shield of Achilles, the Justinian Code, the Magna Carta, Etc. (Click here for graphic details).
And what do we find on the main entrance frieze to the Supreme Court building? This:

Posted by BrianGrass1234 (Member # 5845) on :

As to the question, Where is democracy in the Bible? Its not. I say that the initiation of force is never Christ like so that would mean the christians should never wield government force against others. Though an argument could be made that voting to eliminate government is biblical since as christians we are called to protect others.

Posted by sevenlamps (Member # 6715) on :

The Supreme Court building was erected in the mid 20th century(I bekieve it was 1954-not sure. BY then the attack on our chrisitianity was already well under way. Only a few years later in the early 1960's prayer and bible study would be ruled unconstituitional by the Supreme Court. When the constituition was signed the supreme court was not given major powers and was considered a minor department which only met for 2 weeks out of the year. It has only grown larger with the advent of the new age movement. Think about it. Why would you need a lot of justice in a law abiding nation?(duh) Not only government, but commerce,education,foreign affairs,agriculture,transportation, and other departments have all grown very large and are no longer influenced by strong christian values. That is why we are inundated by such paganistic ways which even the church seems confused about. As fOR symbols, many of the buildings in Washington D.C. have statues of God-fearing men and scriptues and even biblical icons in and on them,evidence of a century and a half of a very strong christian faith. Even today America is far more outspoken about it's christian heritage than most nations of the world.

Posted by WKUHilltopper (Member # 5472) on :

We don't have a democracy in this country. We have always been a representative republic (well, we used to be and are supposed to be, but I'm not so sure anymore). Our founding fathers knew that a representative republic was a much better form of government.

BrianGrass1234 pretty much hits it on the head.
"And yes democracy is bad, a representative republic that is very limited in what it can do is much better. Better yet, get rid of coercive government all together."

Posted by sevenlamps (Member # 6715) on :

George Washington said,'It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the bible'. If God did not want christian government to prevail in the earth where would His justice be. Justice is a foundational element of His throne. The reason you don't see it prevailing now is because satan's time is short and he is waging all out war against the church to wear out the saints. But God has called us to take dominion over the earth in genesis. Satan claims that right now because of sin but Jesus returned it after calvary. Remember, satan is the father of LIES. If we abide in Christ we will know the truth and the truth will set us free. I will tell you a secret. If you resist the lies of satan you would be amazed how easy it is to defeat him. IT IS WRITTEN. They defeated him by the blood of the lamb,by their testimony, and they loved not there life to the death.

Posted by sevenlamps (Member # 6715) on :

The term God of nature, and nature's God is a colonial French way of saying the God of creation. Creation being understood to be that as described in the bible.

Posted by aiopj (Member # 6768) on :

quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
The 1796 treaty with Tripoli states that the United States was "in no sense founded on the Christian religion" (see below). This was not an idle statement, meant to satisfy muslims-- they believed it and meant it. This treaty was written under the presidency of George Washington and signed under the presidency of John Adams.

Art. 11.
As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

Still, there were a handful of court cases that came after that treaty that say otherwise.

How do you reconcile that?

These vids will shed some light on the fact that this country IS a Christian nation:

http://www.lightsource.com/ministry/pathway_to_victory/20070624/
http://www.lightsource.com/ministry/pathway_to_victory/20070701/

Posted by aiopj (Member # 6768) on :

When you ask whether "democracy" is in the Word of God, are you asking whether the word, itself, is in the Bible, or whether the concept, the spirit, of democracy is in the Word?

For example, "homosexuality" -- the word -- is nowhere to be found in the Word of God.

However, God's Word talks about it and refers to it and condemns it very clearly. He doesn't have to use the exact word as we know it today. All we have to know is that He talks about it, refers to it, condemns it. We don't need the word, itself, to know that He is referencing it.

Posted by PresbyGirl (Member # 6818) on :

quote:
Originally posted by sevenlamps:
The constituition states the Congress shall make no law pertaining to an establishment of religion nor prohibit the free exercise therof. Over 100 years ago a Supreme Court ruled unanimously that this was a christian nation after being presented sufficient evidence for it. The American revolution was a success because God was in it through the heartfelt prayers of the settlers here.

I have followed this debate with interest. WHen you look at the history of the United States, or any other government for that matter, it is clear that there has never, EVER been a God-ordained government other than Israel's original theocracy. I find it hard to anoint the United States as a Christian nation when from its inception it was flawed with hypocrisy. While we claimed the lofty notion that all "men" are created equal, the constitution declared that slaves (Africans) counted as only 2/3 of a person. The injustices that were written into laws are nothing less than an abomination. Much of that has been rectified, but it is not possible to look back at a "golden age" of the United States and find anything we can claim as righteousness. We did some things right and a lot of things wrong.