quote:

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Originally posted by Gregree:
Yes Carol, thanks for the reply.
I have a lot to say but for some reason I can't copy/paste my text to the post. Something about the URL, and parenthesis is stopping me.
I'm at a loss for some of this tech stuff, it's much easier on other forums.

My aim is to expose Banner and cause a link on Google to boards like these that'll help others make a better choice.

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Where are you copying your text from?
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Okay, that will work as long as they're given credit.

Don't forget Ephesians

Ephesians 4:11-13 (NASB)

11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Good job on posting all those. Were they all from his website?


Acts 21

9Now this man had four virgin daughters who were prophetesses. 10As we were staying there for some days, a prophet named Agabus came down from Judea. 11And coming to us, he took Paul’s belt and bound his own feet and hands, and said, “This is what the Holy Spirit says: ‘In this way the Jews at Jerusalem will bind the man who owns this belt and deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.’”

Acts 2:17

'AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,' God says, 'THAT I WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND; AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY, AND YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS, AND YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS;

Those verses are just to remind us all that there are indeed prophets and prophetesses in these last days.

MB sounds more like a phony psychic than a prophet. A prophet is speaking from the Holy Spirit, and his only purpose is to glorify Christ. To warn people that if they don't repent then God will smite them. He doesn't relate past "successes" to impress people. He doesn't just claim to be a prophet so he can get a lot of tax free money.
 

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Posted by Gregree (Member # 11060) on :
 
Carol:

You said: "A prophet is speaking from the Holy Spirit, and his only purpose is to glorify Christ."

Right, I couldn't agree more.

I say Luther was a good example of that. He rescued the Latin translation of the Holy Word from the Roman church and translated it into the language of the common people so they could be enlightened.

The teachings of the Apostles shined forth, and Luther helped.
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Yes, he was a tremendous influence in overcoming Catholic dominance and corruption. But he hated Jewish people so much, he was like a Nazi centuries before there were Nazis. God is not finished with Israel, He still loves His people. So although Luther did a great deal of good, he did harm too.
 

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Posted by Gregree (Member # 11060) on :
 
Carol:

Maybe it's safe to have just said what I said without mention of Luther.

I had read his biography and understood he was a failed man like myself who had bigger problems than me, but not as big as King David's.

I would that God used me like he used him, and if I were that kind of man, with those accomplishments behind me, I may get a bit more zealous for the faith, even a bit impatient towards the lost, and I'm not saying it would be right, but I wouldn't want to remembered like that.

Luther may have only been an overzealous man who may or may not have been acting contrary to the customs of his day, and may or may not have been lying about what he was saying, he just seems to be out of character to the 21st century man, who can only judge with assumptions based on his spiritual perspective.

The great Apostle Paul had his struggles with self-esteem, leaking onto the pages of God's holy word, and left for us to see today, so we can recognize our own places in His calling, and the measure of Grace He has given to each as He see's fit.

The word confirms what you said, "God is not finished with Israel, He still loves His people", and such is the argument in Romans 11 where their condition is explained:

11 "I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.
12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!
13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them.
15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

I will say this last bit with the utmost honesty; my own grandmother was a Jew all her 78 years and never converted. I sit back today and realize she is not with God since she left this earth. It's sobering!!!

The same explanation in Romans 11 written thousands of years ago sums it up for you and I today like this:

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience,
31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.


Thanks for the replies.
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 

quote:

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I would that God used me like he used him, and if I were that kind of man, with those accomplishments behind me, I may get a bit more zealous for the faith, even a bit impatient towards the lost, and I'm not saying it would be right, but I wouldn't want to remembered like that.

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For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10)

If Moses went to Egypt and demanded the release of the Hebrews before God called him, Moses would have failed. If he had refused to go when God called him, Moses would have failed. But God called, Moses answered, and he succeeded. It's the same with Paul. He was called, then he spent years being prepared, and then he was sent to preach.

If we decide on our own to do something we think is good before God calls us, we will probably fail. We need to wait for His call, and then obey Him. We each have a purpose, the good works He prepared for us to do. We each are given a spiritual gift, a talent, for doing something to help others.

The disciples used to quarrel about who was better and more important. Our Lord set them straight.

1 At that time the disciples came to Jesus and said, “Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” 2 And He called a child to Himself and set him before them, 3 and said, “Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 18)

At the Last Supper, He washed His apostles feet to teach them that no one is better than anyone else. Our loving devotion and service, doing what He gives us to do, is what He desires of us.

Paul also taught this same understanding.

4Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. 6There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons. 7But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. (1 Corinthians 12)

He explained how the body has many parts, but it is all one body. And so it is the same in the body of Christ, the believers. But the greatest gift of all is love.

Gregree, I know you already know all these things. But for the sake of visitors to the forum and new believers, I always try to explain things when I can.

God bless you friend
 

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Posted by Gregree (Member # 11060) on :
 
@ Carol:

Hey, you choked me up for a second there.
It's good to hear such wisdom for a change!

Do these forums ever get busy or is it quiet most of the time.
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
This forum used to be really busy, but everybody went away. I miss my friends.
 

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Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Gregree:
@ Carol:

Hey, you choked me up for a second there.
It's good to hear such wisdom for a change!

Do these forums ever get busy or is it quiet most of the time.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
This forum used to be really busy, but everybody went away. I miss my friends.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
Cornelius R. Stam is a preacher and writer.

Family and hobbies are great. My hobbies are Sokoban puzzles and crime drama TV and movies.

Do you have other interests in Christian and Bible studies?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
Everybody liked them, everybody, until Barry started yelling. Most of his accusations were false, but that didn't seem to matter. Anyway, Stam never taught the things that Barry was so mad about.

Glad to see you bumped up one of Stam's articles. Born Again/Eden didn't change much over the years, did he?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
LOL are you going to bump all 300 of them?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
I guess I did. Who is mr?

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The guy that use the name Eden and led the baseball fans to think he was a woman for awhile.He would all ways start his post with the doubt and side with against just to cause a ? to the weak in faith.. One of the many weed seeders.


 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Where did Gregree go?
 

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Posted by flsnookman (Member # 11004) on :
 
Perhaps many people chose to read and not post as I often do. I post now so you know at least one other brother is reading what you write and while I may not agree with everything I appreciate the effort. Thank you.
 

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Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by flsnookman:
Perhaps many people chose to read and not post as I often do. I post now so you know at least one other brother is reading what you write and while I may not agree with everything I appreciate the effort. Thank you.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
Where did Gregree go?

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Hi carol,

I'm in and out as I can. I don't have time during the workweek to be on here until some evenings when I can sit at my desktop and see what's going on.

I see you and WildB were reminiscing, and then
flsnookman made a good point about people reading through here but not adding comments.

My goal was to get my written opinion about Martin Banner exposed enough to where it will be seen as a link in any search engine about him.

These forums help elevate my say, from the obscure voice he can ignore and scoff at, to a level where it's public, and open to all critique, including his own should he care too.

The opinions of other sisters and brothers on this subject can only help. I know it's not a clear cut issue to all, and the role of a prophet in the 21st century seems to be debatable, people like to point to the gifts of the Spirit as a reason for allowing others to say all kinds of things either for God or as God depending on where you're at.

They direct it to you, they direct it to the church, or they direct it about themselves and say, "thus saith the Lord"!!! I've been in places where one guy bursts out with a message and when he's finished another starts in with, "And furthermore my people...", than another will pick up after him! It's almost comical, God's either speaking in the first person or the third or mixing it all up at the same time.

When I think of those who claim to be prophets I think of Muhammad, Joseph Smith, Charles Taze Russell, Ellen G. White, Mary Baker Eddy, Aimee Semple McPherson, to name a few.

Yet some of my champions of the faith like, E. W. Kenyon, Major Ian Thomas, Francis Schaeffer, Bob George, Malcolm Smith, never called themselves prophets, only teachers.

Many moons ago I was asked by a new convert what a modern prophet was, and I had to take some time to study out my honest answer, which was, it's a teacher of the word who expounds on what's written and no more, and uses the word to define itself whenever they can, taking care to define the obscure in light of the obvious and not the other way around.

I feel the same today.
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Matthew 7:15-20 (NASB)

15 "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 "You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? 17 "So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 "So then, you will know them by their fruits.

I think your statement of staying with the Word of Holy Scripture is a good idea of the kind of fruit we should look for in a preacher, but a prophet speaks of the future. John was a prophet when he wrote the book of Revelation many years after the gospels and epistles were written.
 

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Posted by Gregree (Member # 11060) on :
 
@ Carol:

(Before you read, let me apologize up front for any negative attitude, or disrespect you may sense in my writing style. I'm not a professional writer, and I can be a bit aggressive while trying to make my point in the shortest way possible. I know you're gentle and wise, and I believe WildB is too, so tolerate me a bit please.)

John was an Apostle, same a Paul, but not us, we are disciples. Do you know any Apostles today?

There are instances of disciples in Acts receiving instruction and guidance from the Spirit but that's the same today and limited to personal issues, or limited to local occurrences; hardly anything to make church doctrine out of.

I believe this kind of perceived Spiritual interaction today is where the immature are making the mistake of believing they're unique, and wanting to rise above others. But, it's the way we are taught, and the way we should walk. Perhaps it's the personal lack of this perception that causes others to follow them!

Just as Paul received the full Gospel message by revelation, apart from being taught it by any man, this doesn't mean we should be "open" to such a thing happening today, via some new Apostle. This is what makes me leery.

Galatians 1:11 But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.

We don't call Paul a prophet, knowing how he was being used in his exclusive rank to expedite the Way, along with his fellow Apostles. The fixed written New Testament had to be completed and that included The Revelation of Jesus Christ to the Apostle John whom we don't necessarily refer to as the prophet either. Again, my point is this was limited to John for a purpose, and not to be expected today.

I mean, what did Jesus Himself mean when he said, "For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John [the Baptist]."?(Matthew 11:13)

Like certain gifts of the Spirit that had their use's and by use fulfilled O.T. prophecies throughout the book of Acts, and seemed more prominent juxtaposed to Judaism and the Gentile darkness, we are hard pressed today to find a man whose shadow alone can heal the sick as he casually passes by!

These are the last days indeed, and some of those negative visions of John's are here in our path, in our church's and on many hearts. But the solution isn't going to be some NEW revelation or prophetic dreams, it's still going to be the One who said, I am the way, the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father except through me".

I'm up at 4:am tomorrow so I'll be catching up with you soon.

Goodnight.
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
You make some really good points that I can't argue with.

But the Word of God is always true. He said there will be prophets, and so there will be. I don't know of any true prophets now. I don't know when these things will happen. But I know that they will.

Acts 2:17

'AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,' God says, 'THAT I WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND; AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY, AND YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS, AND YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS;

Some scholars believe this will happen during the Tribulation because of what Joel says later in this prophecy (Joel 28-32).
 

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Posted by Gregree (Member # 11060) on :
 
Well, I suspect the Tribulation will be a condition much like the world of the Old Testament, with it's prophets.

And so, those who are coming into the Kingdom then will be led via the Spirit but, IMO, not indwelt like we are today.

When the Holy Spirit is removed from the earth He takes all those who are now saved by faith, and the remaining folks who were either enlightened but not regenerated, or who put some pieces together and call on the Lord, will have teachers, and revelations all the more.

They will be taught the same Gospel message, but the fact that they are in the midst of the Tribulation will be a shocker to them, and when they see the Abomination That Causes Desolation Standing in the Holy Place, they will also have a kind of reprieve that we don't have today; they will know from that day forward there will be three and a half years till the second return of the Lord, and all the saints who were raptured prior. This knowledge that you and I don't have, is special and they'll be comforted by it.

It's just my opinion based on 30 years a child of the Living God, and a little Hal Lindsey too.

What do you think?
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
I agree with most of what you wrote. The Holy Spirit is omnipresent, so He will be here during the Tribulation, but as you said He will not indwell believers as He does now during the Age of Grace.

After the believers of this age (The Bride of Christ, the Body of Christ, the Church) are Raptured, those who come to faith are often referred to as the Tribulation Saints. There will be 144,000 teachers from the twelve tribes of Israel, and the two special witnesses. There are many preachers in today's churches who are not actually regenerated, and some of them will realize their mistakes and repent, and so they too will become teachers during the Tribulation. And volumes of information are being written in both books and online that will be available to seekers at that time, at least for awhile.

The Tribulation will be unlike anything the world has seen before or will see again.

For there will be greater anguish than at any time since the world began. And it will never be so great again. (Matthew 24:21 NLT)

In the middle of the Tribulation, the AntiChrist will become indwelt by Satan, and he will make war on the Tribulation Saints, as well as on the Jews, because they will refuse to take his mark and worship him.

They won't be able to buy food, pay for housing, buy gas for their cars...without the mark they will have an extremely difficult time just trying to survive. If they are caught they will be beheaded.

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years" (Rev 20:4).

So, I think we agree on all these things. Some people object to the idea that there will be a "second chance" for people to come to Christ after the Rapture. I believe that there are Bible verses to support the fact that a huge multitude of people will come to faith in Christ during the Tribulation.

What do you think?
 

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Posted by Gregree (Member # 11060) on :
 
"Some people object to the idea that there will be a "second chance" for people to come to Christ after the Rapture. I believe that there are Bible verses to support the fact that a huge multitude of people will come to faith in Christ during the Tribulation."

I believe all that shaking is not just God having a tantrum, it's one last chance for repentance and meant for the utmost good, even though it'll be the utmost difficult.

My wife and I spent many years trying to "be" the kind of Christians we were being told we should be, and we invested our time and money joyfully pursuing this "thing". I won't bore you with the details but it didn't take long till the hypocrisy set in and the frustration of not being able to achieve, had me crying out to God, "why?".

The answer came by God, and I resisted it, until I found out it was based in scripture as opposed to most everything upon which I had built my foundation, at the word of preachers and evangelists whose doctrines and agendas were of men.
I literally burned so many books, tapes, and notes accumulated over the years, because they were corrupted.

I put my faith, my life, my marriage, my children, into the hands of the Lord Jesus and I stopped trying to be a Christian, I recognized myself as a Christian, and I stopped following religions that are nothing more than machines stamping out products, I began a relationship with the Living God, took Him at his Word, and never looked back.

This is saving faith. If I'm trying to save myself via some doctrine of "whatever" plus Christ, I lose, and I'll be left behind when the rapture occurs to see if I can let Him save me and receive all the glory for it, and not have Him put in a position of "owing" me something, like a wage, which voids the Spirit of Grace, and denies the New Testament.

All that said; I have to wonder, because I've walked in the shoes of legalist, and I've now lived with many friends and relatives who can't let go of what they think is their end of the deal. It varies from person to person, but you may as well call it Christ plus circumcision; it can't be allowed to leaven the lump. But will these individuals who find themselves in the Tribulation drop their weapons of religion and surrender to God's saving Grace, or will they only intensify their resistance in hopes of appeasing Him all the more.

Could we have a "Christian Inquisition" during the Tribulation?
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
AMEN!!!! That was great! Really, really well said!
 

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Posted by Gregree (Member # 11060) on :
 
Carol: "Some people object to the idea that there will be a "second chance" for people to come to Christ after the Rapture."

Sorry if my first answer breezed right over this bit about second chances.

Like the Jews, we will always have a chance to believe in the One Whom was sent by God and be saved. The only unpardonable sin today is to not believe.

In the Tribulation the unpardonable sin would be the same but also taking the Mark of the Beast. This is another reason to back a Rapture because it puts people of faith in another contradicting situation otherwise.

Some say the Mark is going to be accompanied by a kind of literal mind altering procedure that will cause a man to worship the Antichrist as god, unconditionally and irrevocably.
I'm talking memory clearing and adding information directly to the brain. Scary!

The word say's the delusion of those days will be so strong that even the elect could be fooled by it, "if possible". I can only speculate as to what that means.
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
That sounds like the movie "Six". Scary indeed.

"Six: The Mark Unleashed" movie trailer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1pd9Jr_bgA

just a note: when you want to quote someone's post, just click on the quotation marks at the top of their post. If you want to quote only a part of what they wrote, highlight and copy the part you want, click on the reply button as usual to open a new message box, click on the quote button located in the list of buttons at the bottom, then paste what you copied between the bracketed quotes.
 

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Posted by Gregree (Member # 11060) on :
 
THX for the info. And I will check out that link.

In the meantime I must go and entertain for the Holiday. So, you have a great evening and Turkey Day tomorrow.

I will Post as I can. Gobble, Gobble, Amen
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
If you have Netflix or Amazon Prime then you can watch the movie for free.
 

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Posted by Kindgo (Member # 2) on :
 
Greetings, very interesting topic...

"Carol: "Some people object to the idea that there will be a "second chance" for people to come to Christ after the Rapture.""

I believe many will be saved during the tribulation, but not anyone that rejected the Gospel Truth before the rapture. I believe these verses tells us that. Notice the word ALL.

2Th 2:10

And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.



2Th 2:11

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:



2Th 2:12

That they ALL might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Sorry, I'm confused. Everyone who misses the Rapture will be people who rejected the Gospel Truth before the Rapture.

The majority of people during the Tribulation will believe the lies of the Antichrist, and the verses you quoted from Thessalonians will apply to them.

But Revelation 7:9-17 tells us that a great multitude of people will come to faith in the Lord during the Tribulation.
 

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Posted by Kindgo (Member # 2) on :
 
Sorry Carol I put your name in the quote, I did not mean to do that.
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
It's okay. Gregree was quoting me, then you quoted him quoting me So, you're cool!
 

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Posted by Kindgo (Member # 2) on :
 
[QUOTE]Sorry, I'm confused. Everyone who misses the Rapture will be people who rejected the Gospel Truth before the Rapture."


Some people have not heard the gospel, so they haven't rejected it. The people that have heard and rejected the truth ALL of them will believe the lie.

"The majority of people during the Tribulation will believe the lies of the Antichrist, and the verses you quoted from Thessalonians will apply to them."

I believe the verses are about what happens after the rapture.

But Revelation 7:9-17 tells us that a great multitude of people will come to faith in the Lord during the Tribulation.

Yes people will be saved during the trib, but not the ones that have heard what Jesus did for them, and did not believe..
 

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Posted by Gregree (Member # 11060) on :
 
@ Kindgo:

I'm glad you're enjoying our little fuss over Martin Banner, and the Rapture.

I stick to what I said concerning second chances in the Tribulation, "Like the Jews, we will always have a chance to believe in the One Whom was sent by God and be saved. The only unpardonable sin today is to not believe. In the Tribulation the unpardonable sin would be the same but also taking the Mark of the Beast."

If I were an enlightened person who was being drawn to God and responding, but at the same time being derailed by Satan's schemes, via worldly things or false religions, I would hope that in an extreme time like the Tribulation I may be allowed to put some ideas, (scriptures), together and come to some correct conclusions that may trip me over to regenerated, and worthy of Heaven.

After all, isn't this our hope for all our relatives and friends who we've been witnessing to, but don't respond; a memory during that terrible time, may cause them to call on the Lord, and He'll guide them from there. If they're a chosen one they'll be brought in too.

That delusion I mentioned to Carol is from:

Matthew 24:24 AMP
For false Christs and false prophets will arise, and they will show great signs and wonders so as to deceive and lead astray, if possible, even the elect (God’s chosen ones).


Mark 13:22 AMP
False Christs (Messiahs) and false prophets will arise and show signs and [work] miracles to deceive and lead astray, if possible, even the elect (those God has chosen out for Himself).

I think the, "if possible", means just what it implies. The Holy Spirit may not be here as He is now, but Grace will abound to those who believes unto salvation.

The real question still remains:

For all those who are trying to save themselves via a denomination, be it Catholic or Baptist, Jehovah's Witness or Pentecostal, will they learn to repent and do the first works, or will it be too late???

Revelation 2:
1 To the angel of the church of Ephesus write,
‘These things says He who holds the seven stars in His right hand, who walks in the midst of the seven golden lampstands:
2 “I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars;
3 and you have persevered and have patience, and have labored for My name’s sake and have not become weary.
4 Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love.
5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent. ><

What is the first works? FAITH! We're saved by, we walk by, and we live by FAITH!

Paul gives us a clue here, "Col.2:6 As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, 7 rooted and built up in Him and established in the faith, as you have been taught, abounding in it with thanksgiving." ><

This is one of many chapters that prompts us to trust God and 'lean not on our own understanding' to get things done for Him. Our understanding is usually based on ego and competition which Colossians chapter 2 annihilates, because it leads to endless denominations and religions, causing us to stray from Grace.

We should take a clue from Israel's folly:
Romans 9:30-31 NIVUK
"What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal." ><

The first works are also the last, according to our Lord. But will these enlightened individuals who find themselves in the Tribulation drop their weapons of religion and surrender to God's saving Grace, or will they only intensify their resistance in hopes of appeasing Him all the more.

Might there be a "Christian Inquisition" during the Tribulation?
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Once upon a time there was a Christian lady named Kindgo who told her family and friends about our Lord Jesus Christ and all that He did for us. Some of her friends did not believe what she said.

But then the Pretribulation Rapture occurred, and the world was in chaos! Kindgo and her family and many of her friends disappeared from the Earth along with millions of other people!

Kindgo's friends who did not believe her before said, "She was right! She tried to tell us and we didn't believe, but now we do. Now we believe!!!" And so they turned to the Lord and were saved.

They suffered through the Tribulation, but then they all lived happily ever after.

The End
 

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Posted by Kindgo (Member # 2) on :
 
No sister Carol, that's the really sad part, I told them and told them, and they did not believe me, now that I am raptured, God will let them believe the lie...They will not believe the truth. I ripped up my 'left behind letters'
 

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Posted by Kindgo (Member # 2) on :
 
Okay try this way..
This is right after the rapture....it says ALL who believed not the truth will believe the lie be damned
2Th 2:10

And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.


2Th 2:11

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:


2Th 2:12

That they ALL might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
 

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Posted by Gregree (Member # 11060) on :
 
Kindgo:
Okay try this way..
This is right after the rapture....it says ALL who believed not the truth will believe the lie be damned 2Th 2:10

Something to think about:

Revelations 13:7 It was granted to [the Beast] to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. ><

This is during the Tribulation.

Revelation 14:6 Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people— 7 saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.”
8 And another angel followed, saying, “Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.”
9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’”
“Yes,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them.” ><


Revelation 15:Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous: seven angels having the seven last plagues, for in them the wrath of God is complete. 2 And I saw something like a sea of glass mingled with fire, and those who have the victory over the beast, over his image and over his mark and over the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, having harps of God. ><


Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. ><
 

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Posted by Kindgo (Member # 2) on :
 
I believe many will be saved during the tribulation, but not anyone that rejected the Gospel Truth before the rapture.

I believe these verses tells us that.


Notice the word ALL.

2Th 2:10

And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.


2Th 2:11

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:


2Th 2:12

That they ALL might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Okay, dear friend in Christ, I can see that you are sure in this belief so I won't debate it with you. But I just see these verses in a different light.
 

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Posted by Gregree (Member # 11060) on :
 
I was looking for this and found it:

Fifth Seal: The Cry of the Martyrs

Revelations 6:9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed. ><

Martyrs, "under the altar" from the Tribulation?

Apparently there will be all kinds of exploits. But it will be as it says, by fire:

Revelation 15:2 And I saw something like a sea of glass mingled with fire, and those who have the victory over the beast, over his image and over his mark and over the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, having harps of God. 3 They sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb...><

It seems we have to keep the good fight for the faith at this time, but those tribulation souls are going to have to do likewise, and deny the Mark with all it's trappings.
 

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Posted by Gregree (Member # 11060) on :
 
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kindgo:
[QB] I believe many will be saved during the tribulation, but not anyone that rejected the Gospel Truth before the rapture.

Ok, so what about the 144K Jews?
Just a prophecy to fulfill?

If the Tribulation is seven years, or three and a half, (depending on your take), not many 'children' are going to grow up to an age of accountability and be required to make a fresh decision for Christ. There will be a good many enlightened adults who are going to come to their senses by fire, and repent.

It seems the conclusions you're coming too based on those verses, contradict the character of God portrayed in the rest of the New Testament.
 

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Posted by Gregree (Member # 11060) on :
 
Good morning.

It's funny, I've posted my complaint about Martin Banner in another forum and found the same verses and subjects being discussed there too.

I don't see the Tribulation as a killing ground without mercy. The bible has to much to say about believers coming out of the Tribulation by fire and have a certain place in the Kingdom afterwards.

It may be that term, "by fire" has some doubting the validity of one's confession as such. I'm not sure we should 'go there' today as well as if we'd want to 'go there' then, considering only God can judge the heart.

But I do think for someone to suggest this, it's a reflection of error in their own understanding of how they are able to stand before God, apart from others.

Perhaps the misinterpretation of Hebrews 10:26,27 has left them confused about the God of the New Testament. "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries." ><

This scripture is slaughtered by ministers and evangelists alike so they're in the same company but wrong nonetheless. It can be remedied by a personal read of the book itself in context, and void of any preconceived notions, which is the challenge; we want to put our trust in the minister over the Holy Spirit. Just act like a first century man, hearing it for the first time as a Jew, to whom it was written, or a Gentile who had zero understanding or responsibility for Judaism, and see what you conclude.

Are you the Hebrew being told to take off the Old and put on the New? Or the Gentile being told to simply put on the New?
 

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Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
Once you take that mark its a done deal. A Christians Brain lights up different than those not enlightened.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spw5nmUrpWA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGMkadUGIWE


http://www.popsci.com/article/science/how-scientists-are-learning-shape-our-memory?dom=PSC&loc=slider&lnk=1&con=spotless-minds

2 Thessalonians 2

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

The mark will be IN not on.
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
The more people turn away from God and the Bible and the Commandments, the more they are leaving themselves open to terrible danger. They can't tell the difference between the true and the false. They'll follow whoever seems to promise them what they want. They'll marvel at a false prophet like MB, but pay no attention to the true and living God Who loves them. And if someone like MB seems special to them, then when the Antichrist comes with all his deceptions and marvels, they will be hopeless to resist him.

Revelation 14:9-11 (NASB)

9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

Exodus 20:1-4 (NASB)

1 Then God spoke all these words, saying, 2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. 3 "You shall have no other gods before Me. 4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.
 

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Posted by Gregree (Member # 11060) on :
 
[QUOTE]Originally posted by WildB:
[QB] Once you take that mark its a done deal. A Christians Brain lights up different than those not enlightened.

Yes, I checked out those links and they are scary. I agree with his own reply to another's comment:

Construuct said, "Removing the God Gene is not about the "Gene" as much as it is about affecting the brain so humans are not spiritual. The less spiritual a person is the more controllable they are and the easier they are influenced by society. Judging by your comment you have not done enough research to truly understand what is going on here. There is no terrorist threat to the United States from "Radical Muslims". The only terrorists we need to fear, are the ones in DC who hold titles like President/Senator."

As you know from your other forum on Islam, I'm not a pro-Muslim person, but it seems the Middle East patsies are being targeted for this kind of introduction and we'll all oddly enough support that!!!

We can thank the Bush administration followed by Obama for their Arab-spring, but being the fall-guy's for 9/11 seems to have only encouraged them as opposed to causing them to hide from retaliation. I'm not sure if that was an anticipated reaction or not! No doubt though, anyone who analyzes the events of September 11th has to come to a different conclusion than what we're being told.

Friday morning the sun began to rise over my State and I noticed right away chemtrails being formed, in all directions, during the day. They talked about using the common cold as a means of spreading this FunVax but it could also be distributed by other means and we'd never know it.

Well, before we get too carried away let's not forget 1 John 4:4
You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world.

Amen
 

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Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Gregree:
. Judging by your comment you have not done enough research to truly understand what is going on here. There is no terrorist threat to the United States from "Radical Muslims". The only terrorists we need to fear, are the ones in DC who hold titles like President/Senator."

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http://www.radioliberty.com/bbro.htm



Brotherhood of Darkness - Dr. Stanley Monteith (1997)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Gae_MMybyg

Uploaded on Aug 13, 2011
Dr Stanley Monteith gives an inspiring lecture on the roots of the 'New World Order' movement and the Anglo-American establishment. He uses Proffesor Caroll Quigley's Book 'Tragedy and Hope: A History of the World in Our Time' as a basis for insight.

http://www.radioliberty.com/


AND

The Big Plantation - Full -
The UNITED STATES is a Corporation

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50cB5yhKR98
 

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Posted by Kindgo (Member # 2) on :
 
The last of these verses in II Thessalonians 2 refer to a different subject. They do not talk about the Rapture.

They tell us about the people who did not receive Jesus as Savior when they had the chance. Once the tribulation period starts they will be lost (unsaved) forever.

"And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, (that's Jesus and His Word, the Bible), that they might be saved."


"And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:"

"That they all might be damned (condemned) who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." (II Thes. 2: 10 - 12) (See also Rom. 1: 32.).

Before the Rapture happens, there will be a lot of individuals who have heard the truth concerning salvation, who have heard how to be saved, but then did nothing about it.

In spite of hearing the truth they still rejected Jesus Christ as Savior.

And sometime after the tribulation period (the 70th week of Daniel) starts, God will send them a strong delusion so that they will believe a lie; and that lie is: they will think the Antichrist is God Himself when indeed he is not.

He, instead, is the devil's christ, the false messiah, the beast of Revelation 13. Due to those individuals not receiving Jesus, who is the truth (John 14: 6), as their Savior, God (Jesus) will turn them over to Satan
 

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Posted by Gregree (Member # 11060) on :
 
Well...!!!

No sense going round about that one, I trust we both will be absent when the time comes and God will sort out the rest.

As you might have noticed, I like to split hairs when it comes to saved and unsaved people who heard it but rejected it, as you say, or people who heard it and seem to go with it, but they maintain a doctrine that denies it.

Personally I put my faith in Jesus 100% and do not feel I have contributed a single thing to my salvation. This was not always the case as I explained to Carol before. I used to preach the opposite and claim to walk the walk and talk the talk, but I've learned you can't walk the walk if you don't know the talk. And many people who say they walk the walk are talking garbage that contradicts the New Testament, and puts God in the position of an employer who owes us all some wages. They act like someday they'll be strutting around heaven and bragging about how they earned their way in!!!

I feel this is not saving faith and most of Paul's arguments refute this thinking that was first found in the Jews of Israel who wanted to have Christ but also "some" of the Law, just to be safe. That was impossible to all extremes; it was Christ or nothing.

I live near a church that boasts 15 thousand members. I have friends that go to a church that claims 20 thousand. For them, that is the Christian life, and judging by their nonstop chatter about what the church is doing, I can see a strange disconnect between the Spirit and the soul at work before my eye's. Let's put it this way, I have made it a point of study in my life to see if this is true.

All three of my sons were raised outside of any church yet they know and trust in the Lord Jesus for the salvation of their souls to the one living God. My youngest has many friends of different faiths and before he was able to get a job and earn some money he had been going to a Wednesday night teen group at a local church with friends. They had a lot of fun and I preferred it to other stuff he could have been doing. But one day after a year or so I decided to have another talk with him about God, salvation and religion.

It's this simple. I asked him if in all the time he had been going there, interacting with the teen leaders, the pastor and his wife, the elders, or even just the parents of the other kids, did anyone ever pull him aside and ask him if he understood why they were there in the first place? Was the church just for the kids to have fun and someplace to go? Besides saying, "glad to see you here tonight, and here's a lesson on not doing drugs", (no bible needed), did anyone ever ask if you were born-again?"

He told me no, and in simple terms within a few minutes I had him seeing the utter insanity of that. They should have skipped everything else and done the first works!!! Does that ring a bell?

You see this is what it's come to. Just show up. The facility is grand with all the comforts of home. The folks are clean and the mood is positive, just bring your tithes and we'll do the rest, my brother, my sister. You're living the Christian life and there's a calendar of events you can sign up to do, along with yoga and Starbucks. Dare I say, "they assume you're born again?" How could 15, 20 thousand members be wrong?...

...the Rapture will tell.

When I was first saved I never understood the verse where Jesus asked, "when the Son of Man returns will He find faith on the earth?". Now I do. I once stood opposed to His finished work myself. I now have faith by which He receives all the glory and I might get a crown for, that is, after the mountain of wood, hay and stubble flames out.
 

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Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
"when the Son of Man returns will He find faith on the earth?"

No.

The Amazing, Alarming, and Awful Apostasy
by Dr. J. Vernon McGee

By Dr. J. Vernon McGee © Thru the Bible Radio Network, www.ttb.org


All Scripture references are from the New Scofield Reference Bible.
(This message is also included in the hardback book, J. Vernon McGee On Prophecy, copyright 1993 by Thomas Nelson Publishers, Nashville, TN.)


"Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God, the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called: mercy unto you, and peace, and love be multiplied. Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained [written of beforehand] to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. (Jude 1-4)"


We are seeing in our day an amazing, an alarming, and an awful apostasy of the church.There has always been a question among students of prophecy about just how far the organized church would go into the apostasy before the Rapture occurs. That is, at what particular point in the apostasy would the true church, made up of those who were believers in the Lord Jesus Christ, be taken out of the world?

Now some of us did not believe that we would see the organized churches plunge this far into a departure from the faith before the true church — that is, the body of believers who actually trust in Christ as Savior, recognizing they are sinners and their only hope is in Him — would be taken out of the world. When Dr. William Culbertson was here in Los Angeles speaking at the Prophetic Conference, he said to some of us privately, “The things I am seeing today I thought would not take place until the Tribulation!” And I’m sure that this is the viewpoint of many students of prophecy today.

In this sense, therefore, it’s an amazing apostasy that has come upon us. Suddenly the church has departed from the faith, and many of us thought that by the time this happened the true church would be gone.

In view of some of the activities of the contemporary church it’s an alarming apostasy.
Because of the present conditions in the church (and in this message I will merely touch the fringe of them), it is an awful apostasy.

For this reason I think we can accurately say that we are right now in an amazing and alarming and awful apostasy in the church.

Now when I say apostasy, I mean it in the Bible sense, a departure from the faith. The word in the original Greek is aphistemi. Histemi means “to stand” and apo means “away from.” Let me illustrate it this way: It’s my custom to stand at the pulpit to preach, but if I stood over by the piano, it would be aphistemi, standing away from the pulpit. And today there is an aphistemi in the church, which means that men who at one time professed to believe the great basic truths of the Christian faith have now denied those things. They have departed from them.

For that reason it might be well to take a second look at what the Scripture states about the apostasy in relationship to the Rapture of the true believers. In light of where we are at the present time we need to see what the Word of God actually says in this connection.

The question arises: Will these organized churches go into total apostasy?
Will there be a total eclipse of the faith? The Lord Jesus made a statement in Luke 18:8 that has been difficult for many to accept, and I must confess that it was very difficult for me to accept years ago.

He asked: “...When the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?” That is, will He find the body of truth that He left here some two thousand years ago? Will He find the faith upon the earth? This question is so couched in the Greek (we can’t do this in English) that it demands a negative answer. So the answer to it is no, He will not find the faith upon the earth when He returns. And so we draw from this that there will be a total apostasy of the organized church.



 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Maybe the institutional church no longer has faith, but the body of Christ still does.

Otherwise, who will He Rapture. No one?

At the end of the Tribulation, He will separate the goats from the...no one?
 

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Posted by Kindgo (Member # 2) on :
 
From the sheep...those who were kind to His brethren..
 

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Posted by Kindgo (Member # 2) on :
 
Mat 25:31
¶
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:



Mat 25:32

And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:



Mat 25:33

And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.



Mat 25:34

Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:



Mat 25:35

For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:



Mat 25:36

Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.



Mat 25:37

Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?



Mat 25:38

When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?




Mat 25:39

Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?



Mat 25:40

And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
That's what I think the Bible says too!
 

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Posted by Kindgo (Member # 2) on :
 
Carol
 

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Posted by Gregree (Member # 11060) on :
 
WildB:

Ahhh, J. Vernon McGee. He brings back memories.
I have an old beat up cassette of a recording he did called, "Where is God, and What Does He Do".
Its very good stuff.
I also try to keep stock of his pamphlet called, "a Good Man Lost and a Bad Man Saved" for my militant church buddies.
 

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Posted by Gregree (Member # 11060) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
Maybe the institutional church no longer has faith, but the body of Christ still does.

Otherwise, who will He Rapture. No one?

At the end of the Tribulation, He will separate the goats from the...no one?

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Gregree:

quote:

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Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
Maybe the institutional church no longer has faith, but the body of Christ still does.

Otherwise, who will He Rapture. No one?

At the end of the Tribulation, He will separate the goats from the...no one?

---

I have to admit, this is perplexing and hard to understand in light of the serious ramifications it implies.
Saving faith is just that, belief that causes one to be saved. I sum it up as, 'all of Him and none of me'.
The opposite of that would be zero faith, or faith that is only an intellectual acknowledgment but that cautions on the side doubt, by adding a human condition to the plan of salvation.

Most denominations that have the name Jesus over the door are not united over one or more of these cautions. And they can be trifle or they can be sophisticated folly, but they're there and the sheep are falling for them, seeking the way that seems right, and there are many.

The Rapture may just be such a small amount of people as the bride, it may not be as notable an event as we are led to believe. This would leave plenty of room for excuses to be made about what might have happened to all those non-conforming, odd-ball Jesus only types who shunned the Christian subculture with all its trappings and ways to keep our candles from the world by hiding in plain site.
We're talking as many as are lost in the Roman Catholic church!!!

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I believe that nobody will understand what the Harpozo leaves behind and like you say, "This would leave plenty of room for excuses to be made about what might have happened".

Yes we will be changed but I believe that the flesh and blood/carcase will be left to look at and stinketh for those not changed..

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Matthew 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles(vultures) be gathered together.


Even now at the funerals of our departed the vultures circle in for what they can get, yes?


 

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Posted by Gregree (Member # 11060) on :
 
@Carol:

By the way, it looks like your topic has been completely derailed. If you'd like to continue this discussion under a new topic heading, that would be okay. [/QB][/QUOTE]

As long as the link to either this one or the other one is showing up in a search for Martin Banner of Perilous Times I don't care what we talk about. The reader will draw their own conclusions and if they feel the need to, they can sign on and comment too.
Whatever we discuss here is an indicator of where I'm coming from also, for all to gage!

Thanks for the note though.
 

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Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
Our bodies will be changed. Nothing will be left behind except for our jewelry and possibly our clothes.
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Amen Betty!
 

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Posted by Gregree (Member # 11060) on :
 
Hello to you who are searching for Martin Banner of Perilous Times.

I've written something personal about Martin Banner and my goal is to share it with you.

Please, go to the bottom right side of this page, or the top right center, and click on the #1 for the main page and the opening topic called

Martin Banner of Perilous Times and Other False Prophets.

Any and all comments are welcome.
 

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