quote:

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http://revelationalive.net/materials/papers/post-trib-rapture/

The post-tribulation Rapture position, while well-meaning, contradicts Scripture in a number of ways and must be laid aside by born-again Christians who desire to in­ter­pret Bible prophecy accurately. The post-tribulation Rapture position

(1) con­tradicts Christ’s revelation to John that the 144,000 Jewish “first fruits” of God’s Tribulation har­vest will be called to salvation before the earth is harmed;

(2) fails to provide for persons to be left on earth in a flesh and blood bodies to repopulate Christ’s Millennial Kingdom;

(3) rejects Christ’s unequivocal promise to keep born-again believers from “the hour of testing, which is to come upon the whole earth” (the Tribulation period);

(4) fails to har­mo­nize with Paul’s teaching that born-again Christians are not destined for wrath (the Tribulation period);

(5) rejects Christ’s straightforward teaching on the unan­nounced, unexpected, any-moment nature of the Rapture;

(6) fails to harmonize with Daniel’s Seventy Weeks prophecy; and

(7) fails to harmonize with the Parable of the Ten Vir­gins.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Watchmen of Christ:
then use those studies and show me in the word where I'm wrong. ok for the 1001th time VERSES VERSES VERSES I mean it's only the salvation of millions at stake here seems like someone one have some verses. where have I posted a verse that wasn't right? and how many times I'm I going to be called names? persecute me all you want satan for I will not be ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

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“But what saith the Scriptures?”
As a member of the Body of Christ
I’m looking for the Upper-Taker,
not the undertaker. Thankfully
we have been delivered from the
wrath to come!
 

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Posted by Watchmen of Christ (Member # 8941) on :
 
fly tares ,fly away we the wheat are here to stay.


sho fly
 

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Posted by Watchmen of Christ (Member # 8941) on :
 
yep . the tares fly away and are burned and the wheat remain with Christ,whose feet hit the mt and splits all the way to the east gate, the meek inherit the earth, and God HIMSELF returns in person on the earth. bye bye fly aways
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 

quote:

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1 Cor. 15:
51: Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52: In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53: For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


ok , this is saying we all won't die, but we will all be changed or translated into our heavenly body, we know flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom, it also confirms we will be changed at the end of the tribulation, notice it says the last trump. How many trumps are there in rev..7 if you know that then we also know Christ returns at the LAST trump 7. satan comes in full power at the 6th seal,viol and trump Before Christ.

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quote:

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1 Thess. 4:
15: For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16: For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


this confirms what I just wrote and the passage above , we shall not all die we that remain alive can stop prevent or preceed the saved dead because they are already there. the saved dead are not in the grave, the unsaved. we know to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord ..if your saved. we know when this verse says trump it means the last trump based on the previous verse and other verses.when true Christ returns the heavens and earth will be on fire (matt 24 mark 13, luke 21) the elements will burn up...

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quote:

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yep your right about thes 4 being about the dead in Christ resurrecting as soon as we die

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I did not say that! We do not resurrect as soon as we die - our spirits go to the Lord, but our bodies remain in the grave until the Rapture.

I'll get to the rest later. Have to go now.
 

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Posted by Watchmen of Christ (Member # 8941) on :
 
oh now what , you think flesh and blood can inherit the kingdom now? don't be silly lets look at the word and what the word says:

i thess 4

13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

*pauls saying he doesn't want us to be ignorant concerning the dead.


14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.


*if someone doesn't believe Christ rose from the dead (in a translated body then their faith is in vain remember HE walked through walls) then we believe those that die saved are with HIM and he will bring them with HIM


15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.


* and we that are alive and remain till HE comes can't prevent them..why because they are already there


16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


*we know this to be the last trump

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


*and we that are alive and remain till HE comes will be gathered together with the wheat( after the tares are gathered) and put in HIS barn amen!


18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


when these flesh bodies die they go back to the dust, Ecc 12 we will be raised at death in a translated body. flesh can't stand in front of GOD. comeon now think about that
 

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Posted by Watchmen of Christ (Member # 8941) on :
 
now let's look at the whole of what paul is teaching ..we only have 2 bodies one flesh one spirit and the flesh and blood body must die, how can flesh stand before GOD corrupt, it can't. we resurrect in the spirit as soon as we die if your saved and if not you go into the grave/hell. have you read the story of lazarus and the rich man?


1 Corinthians 15


33Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.

34Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

35But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

36Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

37And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

38But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

39All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

40There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

41There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
 

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Posted by Watchmen of Christ (Member # 8941) on :
 
What is the hidden danger of Rapture 'Doctrines' ?:
Back to list at top of page

Some might say that as long as those who believe in a Rapture also believe upon Jesus Christ, what harm could it do to believe that they will be 'taken' in a Rapture before the antichrist comes. It would possibly do you no everlasting harm to believe in a Rapture theory your whole Christian life, then in the process of time die before you unwittingly worship the false christ. Those who have in good faith, believed in a Rapture doctrine and have passed on in times past will not have the opportunity to worship the false christ antichrist when he comes, because they truly "will be gone.' The only concern they may have is that they undoubtedly have led many others astray by teaching the false doctrine of Rapture, and those that they taught might be here when antichrist comes. But like I said, there is a certain innocence in ignorance and let God be the Judge. We judge no man, although we do discern false doctrine and speak against them with the Holy Scriptures of God as our Witness.

God's Elect shall be on the earth during the Great Tribulation, there will be no "Rapture of the righteous!" What did Jesus mean when He said: "Behold, I have told you before."? {Mat 24:25}. He was telling us about the false messiah, the spurious messiah, the antichrist whom is satan that shall come to this earth claiming to be the true Messiah. Many on the earth who are waiting for a 'Rapture of the Saints' before the Second Advent will believe that the antichrist truly is the Messiah Jesus Christ. That is the danger in the Rapture theories (among the other false church systems, dogmas, and doctrines of men), they don't warn the people that there are two saviors coming, first, the false savior antichrist, then after him, the True Savior Messiah Jesus Christ comes at His Second Advent. Hence Jesus mused: "...Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" {Luke 18:8}. Will He?!? Will he find you being faithful or worshipping satan the antichrist, waiting in line to be Raptured somewhere? God knows.

Mark 13:23-27
23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. (KJV)

And really, isn't the Rapture theory just another way of man manufacturing a second chance? Just as with Buddhism (another lie from satan), where if you don't get it right in this life time you can be reincarnated for another chance. In the same way, do not the Rapture doctors teach you what to do if you 'miss the boat' on the Rapture? Sure they do, they even have movies and books dedicated to guiding those who weren't Raptured. The "Left behind" series is one such farce, supported by most of the more vocal Rapture doctors.

Beloved, there is no second chance, is it not written: "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment" {Heb 9:27}. A Rapture of some before the end, would constitute a second chance for those not taken who did not overcome and were not taken up in the first out-gathering. There are no second chances!

If you believe in a Rapture doctrine, any rapture doctrine, here is what is sadly going to happen to you: The end times will come upon us in this generation as the Bible states that they shall: " Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled." {Luke 21:32}.

And then there will be 'one' who comes stating that he is the Messiah of God. This 'one', "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." {2nd Thes 2:4}, will state that he is here to save the world from itself and from their sins.

You will observe that you were not raptured out of here and that that there was in fact no Rapture. You will begin to wonder if this one is truly Jesus Christ or the impostor (whom the Rapturist hasn't been warned about). However, you will be totally unprepared to make that judgment because you had spent your whole Christian life waiting to removed before this time came.

You will have absolutely no chance to withstand the deception because quite frankly, you have been kept ignorant to the prophecies of it's very existence, and thus wholly unprepared to discern the events that are transpiring around you in rapid-fire succession. You are exactly where satan has craftily led you.

We do not want this to happen to you, for we know that the Rapturist' truly do love the Lord and abhor the devil. Don't allow satan to prostitute your soul, which, while not a very nice way to put it, is in fact what shall transpire if you do not stop listening to false teachers and start listening to your Heavenly Father and study His Word, the Bible, instead of the non-Biblical fantasies dreamed up by the Rapture teachers.

Sorry friend; But satan wants you to think there is always time later to obey God, always time later to study His letter to you, the Bible that containing all warnings; always time later....

'Later' never comes until it is 'now,' and then it is too late, satan knows this. You must study God's Word now, for all true wisdom comes from God: "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction." {Prov 1:7}. It is the wisdom of our Heavenly Father's Word, contained in the Bible, that shall protect us from the deception and false doctrines of men of reprobate hearts.

Prov 4:1-7
1 Hear, ye children, the instruction of a father, and attend to know understanding.
2 For I give you good doctrine, forsake ye not my law.
3 For I was my father's son, tender and only beloved in the sight of my mother.
4 He taught me also, and said unto me, Let thine heart retain my words: keep my commandments, and live.
5 Get wisdom, get understanding: forget it not; neither decline from the words of my mouth.
6 Forsake her not, and she shall preserve thee: love her, and she shall keep thee.
7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding. (KJV)
 

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Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
Ah so this is where your getting your seed.

http://www.biblestudysite.com/rapture.htm


 

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Posted by Watchmen of Christ (Member # 8941) on :
 
Examining the supposed 'Rapture Scriptures' in the Bible:
Back to list at top of page

Aside from pulling verses violently out of context with a complete disregard for the subject and object of a passage to support their vain theories, the Rapture doctors also make fundamental Scriptural errors or false statements that are easily identified by even Sunday-school students; The Rapture doctors (those who teach Rapture theories) seemingly blindly error by saying that the Church must be 'Raptured out' because it isn't mentioned after Revelation 4:1 (which in reality, verse {4:1} isn't even talking about the Church at all, nor a Rapture of same, it is talking about John, "the Disciple Christ loved," the writer of the book of Revelation:

Rev 4:1 (John speaking)
1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. (KJV)

You wont believe this! But this (by their own boast) is one of the Rapture doctor's 'strongest' and most repeated 'documentations' for the Rapture doctrine. They even state that this is the last words recorded to the Rapture 'saints'. Ok, lets pop this one on our Sunday-school students: "Who is it in the above Scripture that the voice from Heaven is calling to "come up hither"?"

Choices:

1. St. John, the author of the verse, or,
2. The entire God worshipping, Jesus Christ loving Christian end-time Church?

Answer:

The correct answer is number One (#1), St. John, the one doing the writing, the one who calls himself "I," and "Me." Any Sunday-school student who got this wrong should go directly to the back of the class! When someone writes "I," or "Me," they mean themselves - duh!

But like we stated earlier, any time a Rapturist sees a term like "up," or "rise," or "gather," or "clouds," or basically anything 'atmospheric' or 'airy,' they get all 'giddy' inside and think that it is speaking of their escape from prophecy, which is of course quite impossible. God doesn't remove us, He prepares us! Are you prepared?
 

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Posted by Watchmen of Christ (Member # 8941) on :
 
John 3:16-21
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. (KJV)
 

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Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by WildB:
Ah so this is where your getting your seed.

http://www.biblestudysite.com/rapture.htm

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Instead of copying the whole web page over to here and acting like your a doctor of truth why don't you just send we the ignorant to the source?


 

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Posted by Watchmen of Christ (Member # 8941) on :
 
well , I could have swore I posted it AT THE VERY BEGINNING ! see where it says this is from the bible study site? anyway PLENTY of swatting there for the fly aways sho fly sho
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 

quote:

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2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

# 2 Peter 3:12
Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?


2 Thessalonians 2:8
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:


these verses plainly says when Christ returns in full glory the whole world will be destroyed. If there is a "secret rapture" or the saints will be taken and God who's doing it? it can't be true Jesus because these verses say HE will destroy the elements and all physical is gone, so how does this fit into rapture theory?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Watchmen of Christ:
the seals trumpets and bowls happen very close if not the same time, thus the number of the beast is 6th seal 6th trumpet 6th viol


matt 24

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Watchmen of Christ:
hey thanks for posting the site for truth! you should read some of the verses.

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Don't need to you have been copy, paste and then spamming them here now for days..

Its one of the late night weed seeder tactics.



 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
oh, by the way, it's spelled "Shoo fly", not sho. LOL
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Watchmen of Christ:
hey thanks for posting the site for truth! you should read some of the verses.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Watchmen of Christ:
well look at these holy than thou hypocrites, I bet you dress up all nice and go to church and make believe your all saved, you know a ole fig tree by it's fruit. all ya'll have done is call me names,make fun of me and make little comments . real Christians to make Jesus proud. why don't you take your lies and deceit and false doctrine and fly fly away. bye tares bye bye!


still no answers in the word? are ya afraid people will get the deception and quit coming to your churches and giving that money to ya? it's ok DON'T WORRY GOD has made a special place for those deceived by satan , yes HE has. bring the pop corn lol


quit spreading your false doctrine there is no rapture and I'm telling everyone your secret satan and boy doesn't it make your children so mad.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Watchmen of Christ:
false fly away doctrine. ya post very few verses and lots of smart comments. confusion and deceit is spread in here like a cancer. I've posted verse after verse, when you read the verses and have verses then I'll give you my time. till then I'm going to keep posting the verses and words of Christ. shoooooooooooooooooooo fly shooooooooooooooooooooooooo

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NOPE, we just reject your false interpretation, and error filled teaching, the wresting of scripture.

You keep posting scripture with your editorial interpretation attached which wrests them out of their context with the whole counsel of God.
 

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Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
Im thinkin about starting a support group for people like yourself who have become addicted to thinking they got the Rapture Lie all figured out and actually stating an opinion on it... Fear not my friend there is help.


 

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Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :
 
In the Rapture our Lord Jesus gathers His Bride, in whom His spirit dwells, (He who now letteth), from the earth prior to that man of sin being revealed, "

2 Thess.2:
2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out
of the way.
2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth,
and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

In verse 2:7 we see the term "he who now letteth", this is a direct reference to the restraining influence of the Holy Spirit, who indwells all believers. Until He be taken away, and THEN that man of sin is revealed.


Please note that the lifting away of believers is NOT the second Advent for Christ does not set foot upon
the mount of Olives, we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds,
to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The Rapture

Matt. 25:1-13
25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went
forth to meet the bridegroom.
25:2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
25:3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
25:4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
25:5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
25:7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
25:9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather
to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to
the marriage: and the door was shut.
25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.


Thess. 4:17-5:6
4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel,
and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet
the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail
upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of
darkness.
5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

2 Thess.2:
2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out
of the way.
2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth,
and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the
love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

"Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." (1 Cor. 15:51-52)


The Coming of the Lord

Matt. 24:29-31
24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall
not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the
earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great
glory.
24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his
elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Rev. 19:11-16
19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called
Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name
written, that no man knew, but he himself.
19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen,
white and clean.
19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall
rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty
God.
19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD
OF LORDS.

Rev. 19:8
"To her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Rev. 19:14
"And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."

Notice the fine linen white and clean is the righteousness of saints, which are in heaven.

We will then return with the Lord to the earth, and He will destroy the wicked and establish the Millennial Kingdom, and His saints will reign with Him on earth for one thousand years (Rev. 20:1-7).


Zech. 12:10
12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of
grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall
mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in
bitterness for his firstborn.


Zech. 14:4-9
14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the
east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west,
and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and
half of it toward the south.
14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto
Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of
Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
14:6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
14:7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come
to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward
the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his
name one.
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Amen Caretaker. The Rapture and the Second Coming are very different events.
 

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Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :
 
God bless you Betty, Carol and Bill. The post-toasties have such anger against the pre-tribbers cause their desire is to replace Israel and aspire to the Crispy Critter scenario.

They manipulate scripture and reject God's Time Line, replacing with one of their own foolish imaginations. They wrest scriptures out of proper context and chronology, and lead the unwary astray.

The post-toasties like Watchman do such a disservice to God's Word with the error of their interpretation.
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
God bless you Caretaker!

Summary Of Problems With Post-Tribulationism

1. The Problem of Imminency

The problem for posttribulationists is that all the Rapture passages seem to indicate an imminent Rapture, while the Second Coming is preceded by specific events. The difficulty is in reconciling these two distinct events into one single event. Posttribs try to solve this problem by redefining imminence as merely indicating that Christ will return soon, and argue against the idea that the Rapture could occur at any moment.

It should be noted that in several instances, Paul exhorted believers on the basis of the imminency of the Lord's return without even the slightest warning of an impending great tribulation (cf. 1 Cor. 15:51-58). Every passage that clearly refers to the Rapture has this unusual feature of exhortation which is based on the imminency of the rapture and the absence of any warning of an intervening great tribulation.

2. The Problem of the Comforting Hope

The problem here is in harmonizing the comforting hope of 1 Thessalonians 4 with a literal great tribulation. The hope of the Rapture was extended to the Thessalonian Christians as a comfort. Paul did not warn them of a coming great tribulation.

Obviously, the Thessalonians would not have experienced much 'comfort' or 'hope' if they had to go through the great tribulation before being translated. Posttribulationists generally try to get around this by minimizing the sufferings of the saints, and somehow insulating them from the judgments of the great tribulation.

3. The Problem of the Restrainer

Posttribs have not adequately dealt with the restrainer in 2 Thessalonians 2. They usually argue from silence by stating that Paul surely would have asserted pretribulationism if it were an established truth. Their logic seems to be: 'Since Paul didn't come right out and say that there would be a pretribulational Rapture, posttribulationism (by the process of elimination) must be correct.' However, if the restrainer is the Holy Spirit, as pretribs believe, then Paul in fact did argue for a pretrib Rapture.

4. The Problem of the Wheat and the Tares

Posttribulationists support their view by citing Matthew 13:30, where the tares are taken up first before the wheat. However, this contradicts the posttrib sequence of events. In their view, the wicked are not dealt with finally before the rapture. Subsequently, Matthew 13:30 does not support posttribulationism.

5. The Problem of Intervening Events on Earth

The tribulation is a period of preparation for the Millennium. Since all believers are translated at the Rapture, this period of time is necessary to make possible a new generation of believers who will populate the Millennium in their mortal bodies.

6. The Problem of the Judgment of the Nations

The unbelievers (goats) are cast into everlasting fire by means of physical death whereas believers (sheep) enter the kingdom prepared for them - the Millennial Kingdom. The judgment of the nations is an individual judgment. It results in the purging of unbelievers out from among believers and leaves believers untouched. (Note that no one is translated or resurrected).

If there had been a posttribulational Rapture, then believers would already be separated from unbelievers. This judgment would then be unnecessary.

7. The Problem of the "First Resurrection"

Posttribulationists call attention to the expression "first resurrection" in Revelation 20:4-6 in support of their argument. They ask how a posttribulational resurrection could be 'first' if a Rapture had actually taken place before the tribulation? The answer is that the resurrection mentioned in Rev. 20:4-6 actually occurs after the second coming of Christ and therefore contradicts the idea that the Rapture (in the posttribulational view) is a part of the second coming of Christ from heaven to earth. Even a posttribulationist would have to recognize that in his order of events, the resurrection of Rev. 20:4-6 is not 'first.'

8. The Problem of Terminology

Similar terminology is used for the Rapture and the Second Coming. Posttribs thus conclude that these two events must be one. They use nontechnical terms like coming, appearing, and revelation in a technical way.

The answer to this is simply that the context must always be taken unto consideration in determining how these words are to be interpreted. It is faulty logic to assume that a word must always be used in exactly the same way whenever it is used.

9. The Problem of the Book of Revelation

Posttribulationists have no uniform interpretation of this book. Most posttribs spiritualize the great judgments in Revelation 6-19. The widely conflicting and contradictory interpretations that Posttribs hold to in regard to this book is ample testimony to their inadequate hermeneutics.

10. The Problem of Transition from the Tribulation to the Millennium

This problem has been touched on earlier. The basic problem is, How can saints go into the Millennium in their natural bodies if, in fact, they were raptured while Christ was coming from heaven to earth? Their bodies would have already been glorified.

11. Additional Problems which are the Result of an Incorrect and Inconsistent Hermeneutic:

• Disagreement on the Millennium

Posttribs do not agree as to whether premillennialism, postmillennialism, or amillennialism is the correct view. Thus posttribulationism does not lend itself to a single eschatological system of interpretation.

• Disagreement on the Nature of the Judgments at the Second Coming of Christ

The main disagreement among posttribs is in regard to the time and the order of these judgments. Gundry holds that the judgment of the nations and the judgment seat of Christ take place at the end of the Millennium. However, posttribs usually lump the various judgments together at the Second Coming. If they are premil, they place the judgments before the Millennium.

• Disagreement as to a Specific Order of Events at the Time of the Second Coming

Posttribulationists rarely offer a specific sequence of events in connection with the Second Coming of Christ. What little order they do give, they disagree with one another (e.g., compare classic, semiclassic, futurist, and dispensational posttribulational interpretations).

• The Problem of Classic Posttribulationism

The problem here is the impossibility of explaining all the predicted events leading up to the Second Coming of Christ as either past or contemporaneous.

• The Problems of Semiclassic Posttribulationism

Those who hold to this view are not agreed as to how far to interpret prophecy literally.

Those who hold to this view have failed in attempting to affirm any reasonable sequence of events relating to the Second Coming.

• The Problems of Dispensational Posttribulationism

Gundry regards the tribulation as a time of satanic wrath but not a time of divine wrath. However, Rev. 6:16 says it is a time of the "wrath of the lamb."

Gundry places the judgments at the end of the Millennium. The motivation for this seems to be that it is impossible to have a judgment of the sheep and the goats following the Second Coming of Christ if, as a matter of fact, the Rapture has taken place shortly before at the Second Advent itself.

• The Problem of the Distinction between the Church and Israel

Most posttribs include in the church the saints of all ages. They must spiritualize scripture to accomplish this. They argue that since "saints" are in the great tribulation, the church must apparently go through it.

Gundry is the exception to this in that he attempts to distinguish between the church and Israel. (Cf. separate handout on Gundry).

• The Problem of Daniel

Posttribulationism destroys the unity of Daniel's seventieth week, and also confuses Israel's program with that of the church.

• The Problem of Titus 2:13

Posttribulationists have not adequately dealt with this passage where believers are exhorted to look for "the glorious appearing" of Christ to His own. If the Rapture follows the Tribulation, believers would then look for signs instead of His coming.

• The Problem of Purification

Believers are exhorted to purify themselves (1 Jn. 3:2, 3) in light of the fact that the Lord could appear at "any moment." It would not make sense for a believer to purify himself for the tribulation (which would be the case if posttribulationism were correct).

• The Problem of John 14:1-3

At the Rapture, the church goes to the Father's house, and not back to earth again as posttribulationists hold.

http://home.earthlink.net/~ronrhodes/PostTribProblems.html
 

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Posted by Watchmen of Christ (Member # 8941) on :
 
problem with your problem...it's opposite the word of GOD let's see what the RED letters of Christ say:

Matt 24:29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


after means after sorry sis you really need to take time to read this book. it's very interesting.
 

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Posted by Watchmen of Christ (Member # 8941) on :
 
1 Cor. 15:51-12,53

clearly states the last trump. so we know the season by the sign of Israel being reestablished
parable of the fig tree very important true Christians know this parable as the season of the fig ,we are in this season now and it started in 1948
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Watchmen of Christ:
problem with your problem...it's opposite the word of GOD let's see what the RED letters of Christ say:

Matt 24:29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


after means after sorry sis you really need to take time to read this book. it's very interesting.

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Yes, the Lord will return after the Tribulation, but the Rapture occurs before the Tribulation. There is a difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming as we have said several times.
 

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Posted by Narrow_is_the_Way (Member # 8946) on :
 
There is a great need to understand a distinction of perceptions when reading the Word of God. As all levels of fallen individuals are lead to read, each with their own preconceived ideas and impairments, our Father in His Wisdom provides figurative milk and meat, as sustanance, in each book. This is to say also, not all scripture is relevent to all times. But this also says, that in order to discern a significant depth or height of a matter, requires being a healthy (non-argumentive) spirit-lead individual. Some scripture requires transending the flesh seeing the events and intentions as in the spirit - a spiritual (devoid of fleshly influences) entity only. This requires actual crucifying of fleshly influences, even while being in the flesh. Scripture alluding to this possibility: "Come, let us reason together..." implying direct contact with God as attainable. As for this and end time events, it was said, "Seek ye FIRST the Kingdom of God,..." Can you find the Kingdom of God, without finding God in the process? If an figurative upward leading path is not discernable, is it even possible to see the proximity of the Kingdom, how close it might be away from yourself, or even others? Christ said "Discern the Spirits." implying that this IS a spiritual world, discernment of spirits was important, and that people naturally have the power to discern spirits and didn't need to "learn" how to discern spirits. SUMMATION: If you find yourself in disagreement with one another over a matter, it is simply because a person may have a milk glass held up in front of them; or may be on a different step up, or maybe turned slightly in the wrong direction on that step. It is not important of how we see another's perception, we have to be sure we HAVE NOT taken their sight off God, onto seeing where we are as an objective for them, unless of course, a person is standing at rest beside the Lord, which in case they might want to reconsider their responsiblity to speak at all. Revelation mostly requires one as having attained to rapture status; i.e., to understand the visions from GOD's view or sight, which is nothing less than "exquisite." Check the definition of "rapture." Choose to believe this or not, I ask: Are these not just electronic marks on a surface, uncaring in nature? A message has been manifested as from within you, with the intent of giving you a particular understanding. Discernment is as always "in the spirit." The energy lifeform within you and others, occasionally activates their vocal cords to cause lifeless air molecules to vibrate on another's ear drums, in hopes that the lifeform in the other body INTERPRETS AND IDENTIFIES WITH
 

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Posted by Watchmen of Christ (Member # 8941) on :
 
you said :Yes, the Lord will return after the Tribulation, but the Rapture occurs before the Tribulation. There is a difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming as we have said several times.


so Christ returns then re returns? wouldn't that be HIS 3rd return? it doesn't even make sense or line up with scripture

READ THIS VERY CAREFULLY IT EXPLAINS WHY RAPTURE ISN'T SCRIPTURE


Rev 1:7Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen


Matt 24:30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


Jude 1
14 Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: "See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones 15 to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him."


Christ returns to EARTH!

Zechariah 14
3 Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights in the day of battle. 4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south.


Zechariah 12
7 "The LORD will save the dwellings of Judah first, so that the honor of the house of David and of Jerusalem's inhabitants may not be greater than that of Judah.


lightning is NOT secret


Matthew 24:26 -- Therefore if they say to you, 'Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.


In Matthew 24:29-30, Jesus said something very significant. He stated: “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.” The sequence here is plain. Christ will not return until after the Tribulation! There is no indication He will return “secretly” to rapture His saints before the Tribulation!


What has happened is that many have confused the Tribulation with the Day of the Lord. They have lumped together the two events as if they were one and the same. What is the difference? The Tribulation is Satan’s wrath upon the Church and the world. It is a time of martyrdom when the saints will be delivered, afflicted, and killed (Matt. 24:9). Daniel described this time period: “At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book . . . ” (Dan. 12:1-2). This same period is also described in Revelation 12:12-13, 17: ” . . . Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time. Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child . . . . And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.”

By contrast, the Day of the Lord is the time of God’s wrath upon a sinning world. In time sequence, the Day of the Lord follows the Tribulation. How can we tell? Notice again Matthew 24: 29: “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.” The prophet Joel tells us: “And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth: Blood and fire and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD” (Joel 2:30-31). The Bible speaks of this time period more than 30 times.

Notice, for example, Isaiah 2:12, 17-19:

For the day of the LORD of hosts Shall come upon everything proud and lofty, Upon everything lifted up — And it shall be brought low . . . . The loftiness of man shall be bowed down, And the haughtiness of men shall be brought low; The LORD alone will be exalted in that day, But the idols He shall utterly abolish. They shall go into the holes of the rocks, And into the caves of the earth, From the terror of the LORD And the glory of His majesty, When He arises to shake the earth mightily.

Also, Revelation 6:12-13, 15-17:

I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind . . . . And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?

Jesus Christ will return at the climax of this period. This is why we read in Matthew 24:29-30: “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.” Christ does not come before the Tribulation, but after it-at the climax of the Day of the Lord.

The Day of the Lord is the time of God’s Wrath. Here is what the prophets wrote:

For behold, the LORD will come with fire And with His chariots, like a whirlwind, To render His anger with fury, And His rebuke with flames of fire. For by fire and by His sword The LORD will judge all flesh; And the slain of the LORD shall be many (Isa. 66:15-16).
A noise will come to the ends of the earth — For the LORD has a controversy with the nations; He will plead His case with all flesh. He will give those who are wicked to the sword, says the LORD. Thus says the LORD of hosts: Behold, disaster shall go forth From nation to nation, And a great whirlwind shall be raised up From the farthest parts of the earth. And at that day the slain of the LORD shall be from one end of the earth even to the other end of the earth. They shall not be lamented, or gathered, or buried; they shall become refuse on the ground (Jer. 25:31-33).

The book of Revelation adds this important event:

Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever! . . . We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty, The One who is and who was and who is to come, Because You have taken Your great power and reigned. The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth (Rev. 11:15, 17-18).

What does it mean, “. . . You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints . . . “? How are they rewarded? By the resurrection from the dead and eternal life! At that exact time-the climax of the Day of the Lord, Christ will return and the dead will be raised. This is when the seventh trump will sound.

The Apostle Paul tells us:

Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed — in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality (1 Cor. 15:51-53).

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first (1 Thess. 4:16).

The fact is: The elect of God will not be raptured. At the sound of a great trumpet, they will be resurrected from the dead, or if still alive changed from mortal to immortal.

Notice again the time sequence:

Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other (Matt. 24:29-31).

Paul describes this event in 1 Thessalonians 4:17: “Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.” So the saints will meet the Lord in the air, and will always be with Him. Where are they going to be? In heaven?

Zechariah the prophet gives the answer:

Behold, the day of the LORD is coming, And your spoil will be divided in your midst. For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; The city shall be taken, The houses rifled, And the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then the LORD will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle. And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives . . . (Zech. 14:1-4).

Along with the resurrected and changed saints, Christ is returning to the Mount of Olives. Where will He be then? Christ is coming to set up His kingdom and to rule this earth. “Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever” (Rev. 11:15) ! Zechariah tells us: ” . . . Thus the LORD my God will come, And all the saints with You” (Zech. 14:5). The resurrected saints will be with Christ to rule on the earth (Rev. 5:10). There is no Bible substantiation for the idea that the saints will be raptured and taken to heaven either before or after the Tribulation.

But some will escape the coming Tribulation. Jesus said: “Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man” (Luke 21:36). The prophet Daniel affirmed this when he wrote: “At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book” (Dan. 12:1).

God makes this promise to those who are truly righteous:

You shall not be afraid of the terror by night, Nor of the arrow that flies by day, Nor of the pestilence that walks in darkness, Nor of the destruction that lays waste at noonday. A thousand may fall at your side, And ten thousand at your right hand; But it shall not come near you. Only with your eyes shall you look, And see the reward of the wicked. Because you have made the LORD, who is my refuge, Even the Most High, your dwelling place, No evil shall befall you, Nor shall any plague come near your dwelling; For He shall give His angels charge over you, To keep you in all your ways (Ps. 91:5-11).

The Second Coming of Christ will be dramatic and visible. It will not be in two phases. And it will not be in secret. After Christ’s ascension into heaven, the Apostles were told: ” . . . Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven” (Acts 1:11). “Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him . . . ” (Rev. 1:7).

An examination of the various texts often quoted to “prove” a rapture turn out to be references to the events surrounding the return of Jesus Christ. They offer no support for rapture before the tribulation, or any other time.

Note: All Scriptures in this article are quoted from the New King James Version unless otherwise noted.
 

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Posted by Watchmen of Christ (Member # 8941) on :
 
rapture IS NOT scripture, it's starting to sound like Joesph Smith here, false visions and divinations. God calls the fly away theory just that in Eze 13. witchcraft and rebellion is what it is. secret raptures and secret snatching away of the sheep? who snatches sheep away? wolves in sheep's clothings
 

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Posted by Watchmen of Christ (Member # 8941) on :
 
NO SECRET RAPTURE


As to the manner of Christ’s coming there can be no doubt. It will not be hidden from the eyes of men. He will be seen by those living on earth. “Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.” Titus 2: 13. The Bible emphasises this truth that the Lord will appear openly when He comes.

Read these texts: Col. 3:4, 1 Pet. 5:4, 1 John 2:28, 1 John 3: 2, 1 Peter 1:7, 1 Tim. 6:14, 2 Tim. 4:1 and Matt. 24:30.


These bible texts tell us that Christ’s return will be opened to every eye on earth. To put further truth on this, I have asked a few questions as we discuss the nature of Christ’s return.

1. How many tribes of earth will see Christ return?
“And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.” Matthew 24: 30. Christ does not appear merely to a certain class of people that may be expecting Him, but rather to every living soul on the earth. In the same manner, Christ did not die on the cross for only a certain group of people; He died for everyone on earth. Read what the angels have to say about His coming.

2. What was the testimony of the two angels at His ascension as to the manner in which Christ will return?
“And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, He was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; which also said,

Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen Him go into heaven” Acts 1:9-11.


In these verses even the angels knew the manner in which Christ will return. Some people say that only the righteous will see Jesus returning. Is this so? Read the next question and see the answer.

3. Will both the righteous and the wicked see Christ when He comes?
“Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.” Revelation 1: 7. The idea that Christ comes secretly and that His coming becomes known to the rest of mankind only by the absence of the righteous is untrue. In order for those who pierced Christ to see Him return there will be a special resurrection to make this possible. Read on if Christ is going to come silently.

4. Will Christ come in silence?
“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.” 1 Thessalonians 4: 16. These verses tell us that Christ coming will be so noisy and will not be a silent one. And my last question is;

5. How did Christ illustrate the visibility of His coming?

“For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.” Matthew 24: 27.
Jesus looked ahead through the centuries and knew that some would be deceived as to the manner of His coming. Therefore, He uttered this warning, “Then if any man shall say unto you, lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.” Matthew 24: 23-26. Since we know the manner of His coming we can look for Him. “Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.” Hebrews 9:28.


Friends how will Christ return to this earth? Not by secret rapture but VISIBLE and VERY LOUD. God bless.
By A. Kama
 

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Posted by Watchmen of Christ (Member # 8941) on :
 
bless you brother I hope you get saved


in EZE 13 the divination is the rapture doctrine

it's not in the bible

the verses that they you to push their witchcraft divinations don't line up


when you call them out on it they say it's a secret rapture which is against what the word says.


Christ died for all He returns for all to see not special people, HE said HE returns as lightning..has anyone seen this secret lightning?

NOPE it doesn't exist
DON'T BELIEVE THESE FALSE DIVINATIONS THAT SAY WE WON'T GO THROUGH THE TRIBULATION !!! THAT IS A LIE


CHRIST PLAINLY SAYS IN MATT 24 THAT HE COMES AFTER THE antiCHRIST and AFTER TRIBULATION


when satan shows up these fly aways will be fooled into taking his mark!

DON'T TAKE THE FLY AWAY MARK!
 

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Posted by Watchmen of Christ (Member # 8941) on :
 
where is rapture in the bible?
 

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Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
Ezekiel 13:18-20 "the souls that ye hunt to make them fly"
Does this verse refute the doctrine of the rapture? No, because it's not about the rapture at all.

Those who attack the pre-tribulation rapture are so filled with blind hatred of the doctrine, that they often forget that the rapture is directly referenced in the Bible in multiple places, such as 1 Thess 4:17, and 1 Cor 15, and that the real debate is about the timing of the rapture.

But they sometimes read Ezekiel 13:18-20 in the King James, and wrongly conclude this is a condemnation of rapture teachers, who they see as being people who "hunt the souls to make them fly." And, they wrongly interpret the reference to "fly" as a reference to what they call the "fly away" doctrine of the rapture. But if we look up this verse in multiple translations, it clearly shows that the subject of Ezekiel 13:18-20 is not the rapture at all.

In Ezekiel 13:18-20, the subject appears to be fortune tellers, (women who read taro cards, gaze into crystal balls, palm reading and the like) who are prophesying strictly out of their own imagination (or reading into people's own desires) for money. These would be like those who work for the psychic hot lines today. There were these kinds of people even in King Saul's day, he "had put away those that had familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land." (1 Samuel 28:3), but ended consulting one anyway, (1 Sam 28:7), "...Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her..." The kinds of prophecy these people engaged in was a personal type of prophecy, such as "you will be rich," or "you will get married soon," that has nothing whatsoever to do with Bible Prophecy, because the subject of Bible Prophecy is not the individual, but of Jesus Christ.

Second, the magic charms or pillows on the armholes or shirt sleeves are the thing that is used to deceive and hunt people. Weird, I know, but customs were different then. I don't know of any pretrib prophecy teacher who uses extravagant magic charms or "fortune-teller type" clothing on his arm sleeves, as the means to convince people of the pretrib rapture doctrine!

Third, the phase "to make them fly" is not rendered that way in any translation listed below except for the KJV! Thus, this proves quite easily that the subject is not a "fly away" doctrine. The subject is ensnaring people. In fact, the point of the use of the words "fly away" is that the Lord will help people to escape the clutches of these fortune tellers.

KJV: Ezekiel 13:
18 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of my people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you?
19 And will ye pollute me among my people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to my people that hear your lies?
20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

NIV Ezekiel 13:20 "`Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am against your magic charms with which you ensnare people like birds and I will tear them from your arms; I will set free the people that you ensnare like birds.

NASB Ezekiel 13:20 Therefore, thus says the Lord GOD, ""Behold, I am against your magic bands by which you hunt [15] lives there as [16] birds and I will tear them from your arms; and I will let [17] them go, even those [18] lives whom you hunt as [19] birds.

RSV Ezekiel 13:20 "Wherefore thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I am against your magic bands with which you hunt the souls, and I will tear them from your arms; and I will let the souls that you hunt go free like birds.

DARBY Ezekiel 13:20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Behold, I am against your pillows, that the souls which ye catch by their means may fly away; and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, the souls that ye catch, that they may fly away.

Young's Ezekiel 13:20 Therefore, thus said the Lord Jehovah: Lo, I [am] against your pillows, With which ye are hunting there the souls of the flourishing, And I have rent them from off your arms, And have sent away the souls that ye are hunting, The souls of the flourishing.

The true irony here is that the verses actually show that the Lord wants us to fly away, to escape, to be free, like the birds!

Therefore, this is really one of the most groundless arguments floating around used to attack the rapture. Relatively few people have been so deceived as to use this completely inapplicable scripture in their collection of "no rapture" arguments. But for those who do, you can see that such authors have absolutely no respect for study, no respect for the meaning of words, and that they will use anything that sounds like it might be against the rapture to try and make their case. This goes to show the susceptibility to deception, and/or willingness to tell lies on the part of those who attack the rapture.

If you ever see anyone using this particular "no pretrib proof", you know that their scholarship and understanding of scripture needs a lot more work.

Here's one more on topic, for good measure:

Isaiah 40:31
but those who hope in the LORD will renew their strength. They will soar on wings like eagles; they will run and not grow weary, they will walk and not be faint.

Furthermore, their bad argument highlights the truth of why there are heresies in the Church!

1 Corinthians 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

[/qb][/QUOTE]Ezekiel 13:20
Wherefore thus saith the Lord God, behold, I [am] against
your pillows
Not only had an abhorrence of them, but was determined to destroy them, detect their fallacies, and expose the folly of such actions, and them to shame and contempt: wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make [them] fly;
to the places where they prophesied; into the toils and nets they spread for them, in order to catch them with their divinations and prophecies, and make a gain of them: or, "into the gardens", or "groves" F15; there to commit idolatry, ( Isaiah 65:3 ) ; and I will tear them from your arms;
by which it seems that those pillows were not only put under the arms of those that came to inquire of these female prophets or fortune tellers; but they put them under their own arms, and lay upon them as if they were asleep, and in a trance or ecstasy; and so the kerchiefs or veils were upon their heads, which covered their faces, to show that they were quite retired from the world, and wholly attentive to the visions and revelations they pretended were made them by the Lord; and which they gave out, in this superstitious way, to the credulous people that flocked about them: and will let the souls go, [even] the souls that ye hunt to make [them]
fly;
which were captivated with their superstitions; drawn into their nets and snares; decoyed into the gardens, where they were prevailed upon to sacrifice to idols, and were taken with their soothsaying and lying divinations; these the Lord promises to break the snare for them, and set them at liberty, and preserve them from that ruin and destruction they were ready to come into; see ( Psalms 124:7 ) .


[/qb][/QUOTE]Barnes' Notes on the Bible
To make them fly - If the marginal reading "into gardens" be adopted, it must mean, Ye entice men to the gardens or groves, where magical arts are practiced. That groves were used for this purpose and for idolatrous rites is notorious.

Clarke's Commentary on the Bible
The souls that ye hunt to make them fly - לפרחות lephorechoth, into the flower gardens, says Parkhurst. These false prophetesses decoyed men into these gardens, where probably some impure rites of worship were performed, as in that of אשרה Asherah or Venus. See Parkhurst under פרח.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
Wherefore thus saith the Lord God, behold, I am against your pillows,.... Not only had an abhorrence of them, but was determined to destroy them, detect their fallacies, and expose the folly of such actions, and them to shame and contempt:

wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly; to the places where they prophesied; into the toils and nets they spread for them, in order to catch them with their divinations and prophecies, and make a gain of them: or, "into the gardens", or "groves" (o); there to commit idolatry, Isaiah 65:3;

and I will tear them from your arms; by which it seems that those pillows were not only put under the arms of those that came to inquire of these female prophets or fortune tellers; but they put them under their own arms, and lay upon them as if they were asleep, and in a trance or ecstasy; and so the kerchiefs or veils were upon their heads, which covered their faces, to show that they were quite retired from the world, and wholly attentive to the visions and revelations they pretended were made them by the Lord; and which they gave out, in this superstitious way, to the credulous people that flocked about them:

and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly; which were captivated with their superstitions; drawn into their nets and snares; decoyed into the gardens, where they were prevailed upon to sacrifice to idols, and were taken with their soothsaying and lying divinations; these the Lord promises to break the snare for them, and set them at liberty, and preserve them from that ruin and destruction they were ready to come into; see Psalm 124:7.

(o) "in floralia", Junius & Tremellius, Polanus, Starckius; "in floridis hortis", Piscator.

Keil and Delitzsch Biblical Commentary on the Old Testament
Punishment of the False Prophetesses

Ezekiel 13:20. Therefore thus saith the Lord Jehovah, Behold, I will deal with your coverings with which ye catch, I will let the souls fly; and I will tear them away from your arms, and set the souls free, which ye catch, the souls to fly. Ezekiel 13:21. And I will tear your caps in pieces, and deliver my people out of your hand, and they shall no more become a prey in your hands; and ye shall learn that I am Jehovah. Ezekiel 13:22. Because ye grieve the heart of the righteous with lying, when I have not pained him; and strengthen the hands of the wicked, so that he does not turn from his evil way, to preserve his life. Ezekiel 13:23. Therefore ye shall no more see vanity, and no longer practise soothsaying: and I will deliver my people out of your hand; and ye shall learn that I am Jehovah. - The threat of judgment is closely connected with the reproof of their sins. Ezekiel 13:20 and Ezekiel 13:21 correspond to the reproof in Ezekiel 13:18, and Ezekiel 13:22 and Ezekiel 13:23 to that in Ezekiel 13:19. In the first place, the Lord will tear in pieces the coverings and caps, i.e., the tissue of lies woven by the false prophetesses, and rescue the people from their snares (Ezekiel 13:20 and Ezekiel 13:21); and, secondly, He will entirely put an end to the pernicious conduct of the persons addressed (Ezekiel 13:22 and Ezekiel 13:23). The words from אשׁר אתּנּה to לפרחות (Ezekiel 13:20), when taken as one clause, as they generally are, offer insuperable difficulties, since it is impossible to get any satisfactory meaning from שׁם, and לפרחות will not fit in. Whether we understand by kesâthōth coverings or cushions, the connection of שׁם with אשׁר (where ye catch the souls), which the majority of commentators prefer, is untenable; for coverings and cushions were not the places where the souls were caught, but could only be the means employed for catching them. Instead of שׁם we should expect בּם or בּהם; and Hitzig proposes to amend it in this way. Still less admissible is the proposal to take שׁם as referring to Jerusalem ("wherewith ye catch souls there"); as שׁם would not only contain a perfectly superfluous definition of locality, but would introduce a limitation altogether at variance with the context. It is not affirmed either of the prophets or of the prophetesses that they lived and prophesied in Jerusalem alone. In Ezekiel 13:2 and Ezekiel 13:17 reference is made in the most general terms to the prophets of Israel and the daughters of thy people; and in Ezekiel 13:16 it is simply stated that the false prophets prophesied peace to Jerusalem when there was no peace at all. Consequently we must regard the attempt to find in שׁם an allusion to Jerusalem (cf. Ezekiel 13:16) as a mere loophole, which betrays an utter inability to get any satisfactory sense for the word. Moreover, if we construe the words in this manner, לפרחות is also incomprehensible. Commentators have for the most part admitted that פּרח taht is used here in the Aramaean sense of volare, to fly. In the second half of the verse there is no doubt about its having this meaning. For שׁלּח is used in Deuteronomy 22:7 for liberating a bird, or letting it fly; and the combination שׁלּח is supported by the expression שׁלּח לחפשׁי in Exodus 21:26, while the comparison of souls to birds is sustained by Psalm 11:1 and Psalm 124:7. Hence the true meaning of the whole passage לפרחות... שׁלּחתּי את־הנּפשׁות is, I send away (set free) the souls, which ye have caught, as flying ones, i.e., so that they shall be able to fly away at liberty. And in the first half also we must not adopt a different rendering for לפרחות, since את־הנּפשׁות is also connected with it there.

But if the words in question are combined into one clause in the first hemistich, they will give us a sense which is obviously wrong, viz., "wherewith ye catch the souls to let them fly." As the impossibility of adopting this rendering has been clearly seen, the attempt has been made to cloak over the difficulty by means of paraphrases. Ewald, for example, renders לפרחות in both cases "as if they were birds of passage;" but in the first instance he applies it to birds of passage, for which nets are spread for the purpose of catching them; and in the second, to birds of passage which are set at liberty. Thus, strictly speaking, he understands the first לפרחות as signifying the catching of birds; and the second, letting them fly: an explanation which refutes itself, as pârach, to fly, cannot mean "to catch" as well. The rendering adopted by Kimchi, Rosenmller, and others, who translate לפרחות ut advolent ad vos in the first hemistich, and ut avolent in the second, is no better. And the difficulty is not removed by resorting to the dialects, as Hvernick, for the purpose of forcing upon פּרחות the meaning dissoluteness of licentiousness, for which there is no authority in the Hebrew language itself. If, therefore, it is impossible to obtain any satisfactory meaning from the existing text, it cannot be correct; and no other course is open to us than to alter the unsuitable שׁם into שׂם, and divide the words from אשׁר אתּנּה to לפרחות into two clauses, as we have done in our translation above. There is no necessity to supply anything to the relative אשׁר, as צוּד is construed with a double accusative (e.g., Micah 7:2, צוּד חרם, to catch with a net), and the object to מצדדות, viz., the souls, can easily be supplied from the next clause. שׂם, as a participle, can either be connected with הנני, "behold, I make," or taken as introducing an explanatory clause: "making the souls into flying ones," i.e., so that they are able to fly (שׁוּם ל, Genesis 12:2, etc.). The two clauses of the first hemistich would then exactly correspond to the two clauses of the second half of the verse. וקרעתּי אתם is explanatory of הנני אל כסת, I will tear off the coverings from their arms. These words do not require the assumption that the prophetesses wore the לסתות on their arms, but may be fully explained from the supposition that the persons in question prepared them with their own hands. 'ושׁלּחתּי וגו corresponds to 'שׂם את־הנּפשׁות וגו; and לפרחות is governed by שׁלּחתּי. The insertion of את־הנּפשׁים is to be accounted for from the copious nature of Ezekiel's style; at the same time, it is not merely a repetition of את־הנּפשׁות, which is separated from לפרחות by the relative clause 'אשׁר אתּם מח, but as the unusual plural form נפשׁים shows, is intended as a practical explanation of the fact, that the souls, while compared to birds, are regarded as living beings, which is the meaning borne by נפשׁ in other passages. The omission of the article after את may be explained, however, from the fact that the souls had been more precisely defined just before; just as, for example, in 1 Samuel 24:6; 2 Samuel 18:18, where the more precise definition follows immediately afterwards (cf. Ewald, 277a, p. 683). - The same thing is said in Ezekiel 13:21, with regard to the caps, as has already been said of the coverings in Ezekiel 13:20. God will tear these in pieces also, to deliver His people from the power of the lying prophetesses. In what way God will do this is explained in Ezekiel 13:22 and Ezekiel 13:23, namely, not only by putting their lying prophecies to shame through His judgment, but by putting an end to soothsaying altogether, and exterminating the false prophetesses by making them an object of ridicule and shame. The reason for this threat is given in Ezekiel 13:22, where a further description is given of the disgraceful conduct of these persons; and here the disgracefulness of their conduct is exhibited in literal terms and without any figure. They do harm to the righteous and good, and strengthen the hands of the wicked. הכאות, Hiphil of כּאה, in Syriac, to use harshly or depress; so here in the Hiphil, connected with לב, to afflict the heart. שׁקר is used adverbially: with lying, or in a lying manner; namely, by predicting misfortune and divine punishments, with which they threatened the godly, who would not acquiesce in their conduct; whereas, on the contrary, they predicted prosperity and peace to the ungodly, who were willing to be ensnared by them, and thus strengthened them in their evil ways. For this God would put them to shame through His judgments, which would make their deceptions manifest, and their soothsaying loathsome.


 

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Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Watchmen of Christ:
where is rapture in the bible?

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