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Posted by Ezekiel 13:20 (Member # 8124) on :
 
In his new book,Rapture a Dangerous DECEPTION.
Ret.Marine Corps Col. H. Speed Wilson exposes the origion of the False Doctrine of pre-tib rapture.
This is an excelent book for those Christians who have been beguiled by False teachers who teach the foolishness of pre-trib rapture.

ISBN# 978-1-60791-454-9
Don't be deceived by FALSE TEACHERS of the easy out,bail out doctrine!
 

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Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
not listening.
betty
 

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Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
to say that every Christian has to go through the tribulation, is saying that God must bring back every person who died peacefully so they can go through the tribulation. WRONG.

The tribulation is not about God punishing the Church. It is about God punishing those who take the mark of the beast and getting Israel's attention.

You are the one teaching false Gospel.
betty
 

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Posted by Eduardo Grequi (Member # 3984) on :
 
Rapture exist! You go Betty! Thessalonians teaches a meeting in the air! The meeting in the air is not ths second coming. The second coming is when Jesus actually places His foot physically on earth in Israel.
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Right on!
 

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Posted by Ezekiel 13:20 (Member # 8124) on :
 
And what does "air" mean in the Greek?
Certainly not atmosphere!
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
1 Thessalonians 4:17 (King James Version)

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

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Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Betty Louise:
not listening.
betty

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Your to funny and If I may add.

LaLAlala la la la la!

Sign, Viper Bill.



 

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Posted by Ezekiel 13:20 (Member # 8124) on :
 
Hewbrews 12:1
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a CLOUD of witnesses,let us lay aside every weight,and the sin which doth so easily beset us,and let us run with patience the race that is set before us.

Same as CLOUD as in IThessalonians ch.4:17
A large gathering.
Such as a cloud of locust,etc. NOT A RAIN CLOUD.

Air-Spirit body,not atmosphere.

Study and shew thyself approved. Too many people get confused by would be preachers who don't know what they are talking about!
 

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Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Ezekiel 13:20:
And what does "air" mean in the Greek?
Certainly not atmosphere!

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Forget the Greeks."air" mean absence of a vacuum,

So its not outer or inner space that we shall be Harpazoed in.

Sign, Viper Bill.


 

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Posted by Ezekiel 13:20 (Member # 8124) on :
 
Wasn't the New Testament originally written in Greek? Air does not mean atmosphere,my friend.

And as for harpazo:

John 10:12...and the wolf CATCHES (harpazo) the sheep and scatters them.

Matthew 13:19...then the wicked one comes....and CATCHES AWAY(harpazo)that(the word)which was sown in his heart.

Don't let satan HARPAZO you,with his pre-trib rapture doctrine!
 

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Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Ezekiel 13:20:
Wasn't the New Testament originally written in Greek? Air does not mean atmosphere,my friend.

And as for harpazo:

John 10:12...and the wolf CATCHES (harpazo) the sheep and scatters them.

Matthew 13:19...then the wicked one comes....and CATCHES AWAY(harpazo)that(the word)which was sown in his heart.

Don't let satan HARPAZO you,with his pre-trib rapture doctrine!

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LOL you forgot the beinging of the statement, my silly friend.

12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not,

And it is clear to all that you are the hireling.

......AND

You forgot,

19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not.

It is clear to all you lack Spiritual understanding.


Please stop your sillyness.

Sign, Viper Bill.



 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Used ONLY in Hebrews 12:1

since we have G2192 so G5118 great G5118 a cloud G3509 of witnesses G3144 surrounding G4029 us

G3509

νέφος

nephos

Thayer Definition:

1) a cloud, a large dense multitude, a throng

1a) used to denote a great shapeless collection of vapour obscuring the heavens as opposed to a particular and definite masses of vapour with some form or shape

1b) a cloud in the sky

Part of Speech: noun neuter
 

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Posted by Ezekiel 13:20 (Member # 8124) on :
 
Revelation 1:7
Behold,He cometh with CLOUDS;and every eye shall shall see Him,and they also which pierced Him:and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him.Even so,Amen

Are these rain CLOUDS also?

Better get your CLOUDS straight,or you'll wind up with the rapture CLOWNS!
 

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Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
Everyone WILL NOT see Jesus during the rapture, BUT EVERYONE WILL SEE Jesus during the Second Coming.
Get your facts straight. There are two events. One is the rapture for the Church. The second is the Second Coming for judgment. The tribulation is not about judgment against the Church and that is why God will remove the Church before the tribulation. The rapture, the Church will meet Jesus in the clouds and the Second Coming Jesus will step down on earth with His feet.
betty
 

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Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
Ezekiel 13:20 = The Hireling Shepherd



Do not be fooled my baseball fans. Just another later-day weed seeder.



 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Ezekiel 13:20:
Revelation 1:7
Behold,He cometh with CLOUDS;and every eye shall shall see Him,and they also which pierced Him:and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him.Even so,Amen

Are these rain CLOUDS also?

Better get your CLOUDS straight,or you'll wind up with the rapture CLOWNS!

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Nope. These are G3507 clouds.

The verse from Hebrews 12:1 is Strong's Number G3509 which occurs 1 time in 1 verse in the Greek concordance of the NASB.

Strong's Number G3507 occurs 25 times in 21 verses in the Greek concordance of the NASB.


G3507

νεφέλη

nephelē

Thayer Definition:

1) a cloud

1a) used of the cloud which led the Israelites in the wilderness

Part of Speech: noun feminine

A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G3509
_________________________________________________

Here are some of the concordance verses for G3507


While he846 was still2089 speaking2980, a bright5460 cloud3507 overshadowed1982 them1438, and2532 behold2400, a voice5456 out of1537 the cloud3507 said3004, "This3778 is1510 My1473 beloved27 Son5207, with1722 whom3739 I am well-pleased2106; listen191 to Him846!"

Mat 24:30 "And2532 then5119 the sign4592 of the Son5207 of Man444 will appear5316 in1722 the sky3772, and2532 then5119 all3956 the tribes5443 of the earth1093 will mourn2875, and2532 they will see3708 the SON5207 OF MAN444 COMING2064 ON109 THE CLOUDS3507 OF THE SKY3772 with3326 power1411 and2532 great4183 glory1391.

Luk 12:54 And1161 He was30040 also2532 saying3004 to the crowds3793, "When3752 you see3708 a cloud3507 rising393 in1909 the west1424, immediately2112 you say3004, 'A shower3655 is coming2064,' and2532 so3779 it turns out1096.

Act 1:9 And2532 after He had said3004 these things3778, He was lifted up1869 while they846 were looking on991, and2532 a cloud3507 received5274 Him846 out of575 their846 sight3788.

1Cr 10:1 For I do not want2309 you to be unaware50, brethren80, that our fathers3962 were all3956 under5259 the cloud3507 and all3956 passed1330 through1330 the sea2281;

1Cr 10:2 and all3956 were baptized907 into Moses3475 in the cloud3507 and in the sea2281;

1Th 4:17 Then1899 we1473 who are alive2198 and remain4035 will be caught up726 together260 with4862 them846 in1722 the clouds3507 to1519 meet529 the Lord2962 in1519 the air109, and2532 so3779 we shall always3842 be1510 with4862 the Lord2962.

Rev 1:7 BEHOLD2400, HE IS COMING2064 WITH3326 THE CLOUDS3507, and2532 every3956 eye3788 will see3708 Him846, even2532 those who3748 pierced1574 Him846; and2532 all3956 the tribes5443 of the earth1093 will mourn2875 over1909 Him846. So it is to be281. Amen281.

Rev 11:12 And2532 they heard191 a loud3173 voice5456 from1537 heaven3772 saying3004 to them846, "Come up305 here5602." Then2532 they went up305 into1519 heaven3772 in1722 the cloud3507, and2532 their846 enemies2190 watched2334 them846.
 

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Posted by KnowHim (Member # 1) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Ezekiel 13:20:
Better get your CLOUDS straight,or you'll wind up with the rapture CLOWNS!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
1 Thessalonians 4:17 (King James Version)

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

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I've read my bible from cover to cover and I have to say I agree with Carol.
 

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Posted by Ezekiel 13:20 (Member # 8124) on :
 
I Thessalonians 4:17 Is not proff of a Pre-trib Bail out.
 

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Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
you are just too blind to see it. Again the tribulation is not about the Church. The tribulation will not occur until the Church Age ends. I am sorry that you have been influenced by false teachers, but we are not interested in false teaching. We know the truth.
betty
 

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Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
Burger Girl,

Don't think I have met you. Welcome to the board.
betty
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Hi Burger Girl. Welcome back.

quote:

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Originally posted by Ezekiel 13:20:
And what does "air" mean in the Greek?
Certainly not atmosphere!

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quote:

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Study and shew thyself approved. Too many people get confused by would be preachers who don't know what they are talking about!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Betty Louise:
Burger Girl,

Don't think I have met you. Welcome to the board.
betty

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ezekiel 13:20:
I do take my own advice.

That's why I have studied the Scriptures and origin of the modern day bail out doctrine.
I knew I was having my ears tickled when I first heard the easy out doctrine.
At first I tried to believe it. Even went to school and gave them the answers they wanted and got certificates and diplomas saying I knew all about the "Bail Out" pre-trib rapture.
It still didn't line up with Scripture or Church history.
Investigate it for your self,or be swept away in satan's flood of pre-trib LIE'S.
God will reveal the TRUTH to those who want to know.

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Ezekiel 13:20 = The Hireling Shepherd



Do not be fooled my baseball fans. Just another later-day weed seeder.



 

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Posted by BurgerGirl (Member # 8256) on :
 
Rapture or not...
In Hebrews 13:5 it says that God will never leave us, forsake us or leave us helpless in any way. He will never let us down or relax his hold on us. It's a promise to all believers. Therefore, I find it impossible to believe that during tribulation he would leave his own children to suffer through what he already has for us.
 

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Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
and William wept.
 

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Posted by Ezekiel 13:20 (Member # 8124) on :
 
God's Word,and Church History do not support the any moment outa here doctrine of pre-trib rapture.
All one has to do is investigate.

Christ shall return exactly as He said He would,not as the FALSE TEACHERS of pre-trib say!
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Oh yes, He will return exactly as He said He would at the end of the Tribulation, and we will be with Him!
 

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Posted by Ezekiel 13:20 (Member # 8124) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
Oh yes, He will return exactly as He said He would at the end of the Tribulation, and we will be with Him!

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quote:

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Yes,His Second Coming will be followed by His 1000 year Millenial Reign here on this earth.

Revelation 5:10

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quote:

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THE SECRET RAPTURE - IS IT SCRIPTURAL? (Page 3)

Ezekiel 13:20
posted January 26, 2011 11:35
________________________________________
The deception is in the fact that most people have been taught that "air" is the atmosphere,when in all reality we meet the Lord in our spirit bodies (air).

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ezekiel 13:20:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
[QB]

Oh, but I forgot. You think the Tribulation will be a time of peace and prosperity.

Perhaps,you should read Daniel ch.8:23-27

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quote:

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THE SECRET RAPTURE - IS IT SCRIPTURAL? (Page 4

Ezekiel 13:20
posted February 18, 2011 19:19
-------------------------------------------------

Anti-christ comes in Peacefully and Prosperously saying he is God.
The death he causes is spititual death.
The death spoken of in Revelation for the most part is spiritual death. Satan is spiritual death,he ain't to concerned with killing someone physically.
Anti-christ pretends to be Christ. A better name for anti-christ would be Facsimile-christ.
Those who have watched the death and destrution movies,will be in for quite a surprise when anti-christ does appear,they will think he is Jesus here to rapture them away.


What would a man give in exchange for his soul?

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Time for parallel translations again:

NRSV:
25By his cunning

he shall make deceit prosper under his hand,

and in his own mind he shall be great.

Without warning he shall destroy many

and shall even rise up against the Prince of princes.

But he shall be broken, and not by human hands.

NCV:
25This king will succeed by using lies and force. He will think that he is very important. He will destroy many people without warning; he will try to fight even the Prince of princes! But that cruel king will be destroyed, and not by human power.

KJV:
25And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

ESV:
25By his cunning he shall make deceit prosper under his hand, and in his own mind he shall become great. Without warning he shall destroy many. And he shall even rise up against the Prince of princes, and he shall be broken—but by no human hand.

RSV:
25By his cunning he shall make deceit prosper under his hand, and in his own mind he shall magnify himself. Without warning he shall destroy many; and he shall even rise up against the Prince of princes; but, by no human hand, he shall be broken.

NASB:
25“And through his shrewdness

He will cause deceit to succeed by his influence;

And he will magnify himself in his heart,

And he will destroy many while they are at ease.

He will even oppose the Prince of princes,

But he will be broken without human agency.

ICB:
25This king will use his wisdom to make lies successful. He will think that he is very important. He will destroy many people without warning. He will try to fight even God, the Prince of princes! But that cruel king will be destroyed. And it will not be human power that destroys him.

NLT:
25He will be a master of deception and will become arrogant; he will destroy many without warning. He will even take on the Prince of princes in battle, but he will be broken, though not by human power.

CEV:
25His deceitful lies will make him so successful, that he will think he is really great. Suddenly he will kill many people, and he will even attack God, the Supreme Ruler. But God will crush him!

TEV:
25Because he is cunning, he will succeed in his deceitful ways. He will be proud of himself and destroy many people without warning. He will even defy the greatest King of all, but he will be destroyed without the use of any human power.

GWT:
25He will cleverly use his power to deceive others successfully. He will consider himself to be great and destroy many people when they don’t expect it. He will oppose the Commander of Commanders, but he will be defeated, though not by any human power.

These aren't all the English translations, but enough of them to prove my point. The Tribulation will not be a time of peace.

Here is an online parallel Bible you can use if you want:

http://bible.cc/genesis/1-1.htm
 

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Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
Give up Carol. Some people do not want to know the truth. Some are so prideful that when they are taken in the rapture they will probably try to tell God that He did it the wrong way.
love,
mom
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
LOL

I'm not trying to change his beliefs Betty. He has the right to believe in a post-trib rapture if he wants. I just want him to learn to do careful research and quote scripture and communicate with people in a reasonable way instead of just barking at us.
 

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Posted by Eduardo Grequi (Member # 3984) on :
 
I will only say this:

The book of I Thess chapter 4 defines the rapture:

(1Th 4:13) But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.

(1Th 4:14) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

(1Th 4:15) For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

(1Th 4:16) For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

(1Th 4:17) Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

(1Th 4:18) Therefore comfort one another with these words.


The fact of the rapture is to bring comfort. Christians who walk away and say there is no rapture are worshipping their own view. IF the rapture happens before the tribulation it is called a pre-trib rapture, if the rapture during the tribulation it is called para-trib rapture and if it doesn't happened period than what the book of Thessalonians says was a lie and if that is a lie than everything from Genesis - Revelation is a lie and the God of that collection of books can not be trusted.

As Paul has spoken if the resurrection of Jesus never took place then our faith is in vain.

Come on you guys get it together, here in this blog topic barely potraits Christian love. It appears like a bunch of opinionate parahnas devouring anyone who has different point of view.

The most important subject that should be discussed is "WHAT HAVE YOU DONE WITH JESUS?"

Did you placed him back on the cross or are you living for him? etc....
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Luke 21:36 NKJV

Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.
 

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Posted by Ezekiel 13:20 (Member # 8124) on :
 
None of those verses says anything about a rapture. The DEAD He brings back with Him. Doesn't say he brings back those who were raptured.

Sad thing that so many will be without any oil during the time of tribulation,simply because they have listened to the FALSE TEACHERS of pre-trib rapture!
 

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Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
And as usual Ezikel will not see the truth. You are right about the oil but that is for Tribulation Saints. Christians are only saved by the blood we cannot add to our salvation. We cannot fill ourselves up more with the Holy Spirit. Only the Holy Spirit has the power to fill. We cannot add on iota to our salvation.
betty
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
So right Betty. The "oil" is the Holy Spirit, and every believer is indwelt by Him. He is the One who must be taken out of the way before the Antichrist can be revealed. For that to happen means the Church, indwelt by Him, must be taken out of the way, i.e., Raptured off of the Earth.

quote:

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None of those verses says anything about a rapture. The DEAD He brings back with Him. Doesn't say he brings back those who were raptured.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Betty Louise:
And as usual Ezikel will not see the truth. You are right about the oil but that is for Tribulation Saints. Christians are only saved by the blood we cannot add to our salvation. We cannot fill ourselves up more with the Holy Spirit. Only the Holy Spirit has the power to fill. We cannot add on iota to our salvation.
betty

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quote:

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Originally posted by Bloodbought:
Speaking of the wheat and the tares. Jesus said,

Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

The tares are gathered first, but those who hold to the pre-trib rapture say the wheat is gathered first.

That’s a contradiction.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
The “harvest” was a common metaphor for the final judgment (Jeremiah 51:33; Hosea 6:11; see also Revelation 14:14-16).

Judgement takes place in Revelation 20, the New Heavens and Earth in Revelation 21.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
So right Betty. The "oil" is the Holy Spirit, and every believer is indwelt by Him. He is the One who must be taken out of the way before the Antichrist can be revealed. For that to happen means the Church, indwelt by Him, must be taken out of the way, i.e., Raptured off of the Earth.

quote:

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None of those verses says anything about a rapture. The DEAD He brings back with Him. Doesn't say he brings back those who were raptured.

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This is so funny Eze! He doesn't bring the Raptured with Him when He is coming to Rapture us!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ezekiel 13:20:

quote:

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Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
The “harvest” was a common metaphor for the final judgment (Jeremiah 51:33; Hosea 6:11; see also Revelation 14:14-16).

Judgement takes place in Revelation 20, the New Heavens and Earth in Revelation 21.

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Christ was not speaking a metaphor in Matthew 13:30
He meant what He said,and said what He meant.
FIRST means FIRST.

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That's right, judgement comes FIRST, then the New Heavens and Earth.
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Ezekiel 13:20:

quote:

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Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
So right Betty. The "oil" is the Holy Spirit, and every believer is indwelt by Him. He is the One who must be taken out of the way before the Antichrist can be revealed. For that to happen means the Church, indwelt by Him, must be taken out of the way, i.e., Raptured off of the Earth.

quote:

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None of those verses says anything about a rapture. The DEAD He brings back with Him. Doesn't say he brings back those who were raptured.

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This is so funny Eze! He doesn't bring the Raptured with Him when He is coming to Rapture us!

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How will those "Left Behind" be convicted of sin,repent and be saved if the Holy Spirit isn't here?
There's no other way a person can be saved except through the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

Oh,that's right according to the pre-tribbers God has a differnt plan of salvation during the tribulation.....silly me I forgot.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Carol Swenson:

quote:

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Originally posted by Ezekiel 13:20:

quote:

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Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
The “harvest” was a common metaphor for the final judgment (Jeremiah 51:33; Hosea 6:11; see also Revelation 14:14-16).

Judgement takes place in Revelation 20, the New Heavens and Earth in Revelation 21.

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Christ was not speaking a metaphor in Matthew 13:30
He meant what He said,and said what He meant.
FIRST means FIRST.

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That's right, judgement comes FIRST, then the New Heavens and Earth.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ezekiel 13:20:
Then you must agree that that the tares get harvested first. Is that right?
Or does the wheat get pulled up in a rapture,then the tares get harvested,then the raptured wheat returns with Christ at the Second Coming.

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All of the Old Testament Saints are already in Heaven.

All of those who have died in Christ are already in Heaven.

The Church will be in Heaven.

Most of the Tribulation Saints will be killed during the Tribulation and they’ll be in Heaven.

The only ones alive to be judged at the Second Coming are survivors of the Tribulation, and this is described in Matthew 25:31-46. Here the Lord blesses the sheep before He curses the goats.

The wheat and tares judgment cannot be at the Second Coming because there will still be both wheat and tares all during the Millennial Kingdom era.

It is at the end of time that all the unsaved are judged and cast into the lake of fire before the saved are given the New Heaven and Earth.
 

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Posted by crixus (Member # 8527) on :
 
Get right, or get left behind...for 3 1/2 years of Hell on Earth. I'd much rather be in Heaven instead. The rapture will be the real deal! (1 Thessalonians 4:17)
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Ezekiel 13:20:
So,if the dispensation of grace ends with the so called rapture,how will the tribulation saints be saved?
Works?

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quote:

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Revelation 12:11 And they overcame him(anti-christ,false messiah)by the Blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony;and they loved not their lives unto death.
Umm..doesn't look as if the plan changes to me.

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I'll quote this verse in context:


Revelation 12:7 - 17 (NASB)
And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war, and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven. And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night. “And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death. “For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time.”

And when the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child. But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she could fly into the wilderness to her place, where she was nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. And the serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, so that he might cause her to be swept away with the flood. But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and drank up the river which the dragon poured out of his mouth. So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

The verse you quoted took place in Heaven, but on earth it changes from "blood of the Lamb" to "the commandments of God".
 

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Posted by Eduardo Grequi (Member # 3984) on :
 
age of grace is define the time before the Church is taken out thru the removal of the Holy Spirit. It is the 144,000 Jewish Ministers that will be the evangilists to bring the word of salvation to the multitude.

Sometimes I believe there will be a blending of events that would make it seem we have arrived to the portal of Jacob's trouble. I truly believe whether Jesus returns before the man of Sin is known or after he has assume power, it will be a very taxing and trying time.

So my brothers and sisters have we immulated Christ to the point of being an effectual witness before this rapture occur.

What can we do to point people to Jesus? What can we do communicate non-judgementally to the lost.
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Populating The Millennial Kingdom


I. THE PROBLEM

When the Millennium begins, some people have to be alive in unresurrected bodies, who can beget children and populate that kingdom. All premillennialists agree with this.

The Millennium not only involves the reign of Christ with His people, who will then have resurrected bodies, but also the reign of Christ over people on this earth who will not have resurrected bodies. If there were only resurrected saints in the kingdom, then there would be no death, no increase in population, and no differences in the ages of millennial citizens (all of which are indicated as characterizing the kingdom-Isa. 65:20; Zech. 8:5; Rev. 20:12). Since resurrected people do not propagate, there would be no way to populate the kingdom unless some unresurrected people enter the Millennium. Thus all premillennialists see the need to have some adults who survive the Tribulation who are not taken to heaven at the end of the Tribulation but who enter the Millennium in unresurrected bodies to become the first parents of the millennial population.

II. THE PRETRIBULATIONAL SOLUTION

The pretribulational understanding of future events satisfies this need easily. The Rapture will occur before the Tribulation, removing all the redeemed who are living on the earth at that time. But many people will be saved during the Tribulation (Rev. 7:9, 14) including a specific group of 144,000 Jewish people (v. 4). Of those saved during that horrible time, many will be martyred (6:11; 13:15), but some will survive to enter the Millennium (Matt. 25:34; Zech. 14:11). The initial group who will enter the Millennium will not only enter with natural bodies but will also be redeemed people who willingly submit to the rule of the King. In due time, babies will be born and grow up. Some will receive Christ into their hearts; others will not. But all will have to give allegiance to the King’s government or suffer the consequences. By the end of the Millennium there will be innumerable rebels who will have given outward obedience to the King, but who, when given the opportunity by Satan after his release, will join his revolution against Christ (Rev. 20:7-9).

Thus in the pretribulational understanding of these future events, the original parents of the millennial kingdom will come from the redeemed (but unresurrected) survivors of the Tribulation, the “sheep” of Matthew 25:34 and the faithful Jewish survivors of Ezekiel 20:38.

III. THE POSTTRIBULATIONAL SOLUTION

In contrast stands the posttribulational picture. The church, of course, will live through the Tribulation. Though some will be martyred, many will be protected and survive. The 144,000 Jews and the great multitude of Revelation 7 are included in the church. At the end of the Tribulation all living believers will be raptured, given resurrection bodies, and return immediately to earth in the single event of the Rapture and Second Coming. This would seem to eliminate all redeemed, unresurrected people from the earth at that point in time so that there will be no one left to begin to populate the kingdom. If the wicked survivors are either killed or consigned to hades at the end of the Tribulation, then there will be no one left in an unresurrected body to enter the Millennium.

So, either the posttribulationist must find some people who will not be saved when the Rapture begins but will be saved by the time that single, instantaneous event of the Rapture-Second Coming concludes (how much time is there?), or he must allow the initial parents of the Millennium to be unsaved people who somehow are not killed or judged at or after Armageddon. Those are the only options open to the posttribulationist to find millennial parents.

We need to be reminded of another detail at this point. The millennial population includes both Jewish and Gentile people (Isa. 19:24-25). So the first generation must be made up of both races. But a posttribulational Rapture will remove all the candidates for redeemed millennial parents of every race. And the judgments of the Second Coming will remove all the candidates for unredeemed millennial parents of every race. Where will those parents come from?

Most posttribulationists do not attempt to give an answer to this question. This may be because posttribulationists do not usually put the details of their system together in an orderly way. Their picture of the future is painted with broad strokes, not fine detail. Posttribulationists do not sponsor prophecy conferences in which their speakers are expected to describe rather specifically the system they promote. Some posttribulationists may never have seen this question as a question, simply because they have not spelled out systematically and in detail their outline of future events. But whatever the reason, most do not address this question.

Robert Gundry is an exception (The Church and the Tribulation [Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1973], pp. 81-3, 134-9, 163-71). His answer is twofold. The Jewish progenitors of the millennial population will come from the 144,000 who will not be saved at any time during the Tribulation but only at the end (p.83). The Gentile parents will come from the wicked who will somehow escape death and/or judgment at the end of the Tribulation (p.137). Those wicked are the ones left in Matthew 24:40-41 (in contrast to the ones taken in the posttribulational Rapture). He says, “. . . a partial destruction would leave the remaining unsaved to populate the millennial earth” (p. 137).

Furthermore, an adjustment has to be made in the time of the judgment of the sheep and goats in Matthew 25:31-46 if the posttribulational picture be correct. The reason is simple: if the Rapture is after the Tribulation, then all the sheep (redeemed) will have been removed from the earth, and there would be no sheep to be part of that judgment if it occurs at the Second Coming, which is a single event with the Rapture. There is no way the Rapture can remove the sheep and yet have sheep present on the earth to be judged immediately following the Rapture. So either the Rapture cannot be posttribulational or the judgment of the sheep and goats must be after the Second Coming (Gundry places it after the Millennium).

We need to examine three things that are necessary to the posttribulational answer: (a) the conversion of the 144,000, (b) the identification of the groups in Matthew 24:40-41, and (c) the time of the judgment of the sheep and goats in verses 31-46.

IV. THE 144,000 JEWS

Some posttribulationists consider the 144,000 Jews to be “spiritual Israel—the church” (George E. Ladd, A Commentary on the Revelation of John [Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1971], p. 114). If so, then their sealing is at the beginning of the Tribulation and relates to their spiritual salvation as well as physical protection. Gundry acknowledges that the 144,000 might belong to the church (and therefore be saved at the beginning); he prefers to regard them as unsaved throughout the Tribulation and identical with the group that will look on Christ when He returns and believe (Zech. 12:10) and with the Israel who will be saved at the Second Coming (Rom. 11:26-27). The reason for his preference is logical. If the 144,000 were saved any time during the Tribulation years-at the beginning, in the middle, or even during the last year-they would be raptured in the posttribulation Rapture, given resurrection bodies at that time, then return at the same time to reign with Christ in the kingdom. But having been given resurrection bodies would preclude their being the parents of anybody in the kingdom. On the other hand, if they were not saved until the very end of the Second Coming, they would “escape” the Rapture, yet be converted, but remain in unresurrected bodies and thus be able to become parents of millennial children.

Actually, pretribulationists understand that there will be a group of Jewish people converted at the conclusion of the Tribulation who will become the parents of the Jewish portion of the millennial population. They will come from among the Jewish people who survive the Tribulation even though they were unsaved throughout it. When the Lord returns they will be gathered and judged, the rebels (possibly two thirds, Zech. 13:8) to be excluded from the kingdom, and those who turn in faith when they see Him to enter the kingdom (Ezek. 20:33-44). Those believing survivors constitute the “all” of all Israel that will be saved at the Second Coming (Rom. 11:26). But they will not be given resurrection bodies at that time; rather they will enter the kingdom in material bodies with the ability to propagate.

Why cannot the posttribulationist also let this group be the millennial parents? Because that group will believe when they see the Lord coming, which would be at the posttribulational Rapture. So they also would be raptured, taken to heaven, given resurrection bodies, and eliminated from parenting. The Rapture, whenever it occurs, will be the greatest separation of believers from unbelievers imaginable so if there is to be a group of Jewish people who will believe when they see the Lord coming, and if that coming is the posttribulational Rapture-Second Coming, then they will be raptured because at that moment they will become believers. So the posttribulationist needs to have a group that is sealed in an unsaved state long enough to miss the Rapture but not long enough to miss entering the Millennium in material bodies. Thus, as one would expect, Gundry says of Ezekiel 20 that “that passage may not portray a formal judgment at all” (p. 168). Actually, it cannot in the posttribulational system.

Can the 144,000 be considered unconverted throughout the Tribulation years? The answer is yes. One can hold any interpretation one wishes. The question is not, Is it possible to interpret that way? The question is, Is it reasonable to do so? What does the text of Revelation 7:1-8 say?

It states two very significant facts: the 144,000 “have the seal of the living God” (v. 2) and they are “the bond servants of our God” (v. 3). The text does not specifically say what their service is, but it does say whom they serve. They serve God, not Antichrist. Are we to imagine here a group of 144,000 unsaved people designated as God’s bond servants? Posttribulationists weakly explain that the designation is anticipatory of their millennial service when they will have been converted. Any explanation is possible, but is it the most likely meaning of the text? Certainly not.

But even granting that their designation as God’s servants does not apply to the 144,000 in the Tribulation period but only in the Millennium, the statement in verse 2 is very difficult to harmonize with the posttribulational system. The group is said to be sealed before the judgments of the Tribulation begin (v. 3). Try to fit this into posttribulationism. Here would be a distinct group of unconverted Jewish people on whose foreheads God has placed His seal. As unsaved people, they (or surely some of them) will follow Antichrist, who also will place his mark on their foreheads or hands. And the destiny of Antichrist’s followers has already been predetermined: they will be tormented forever with fire and brimstone (14:9-11). None of his followers will be saved, not even 144,000 of them.

To sum up: posttribulationism needs to have an unconverted group of Jews who will survive the Tribulation, but who, because they are unconverted, will not be raptured at the end, but will be converted by the time the Millennium begins so they can enter the Millennium in their unresurrected bodies and beget children. The only group that can qualify is the 144,000, assuming they can be described as unconverted servants of God who have on their foreheads God’s seal before the Tribulation begins and who do not follow Antichrist so they will not have his mark. Is all this possible?

V. MATTHEW 24:40-41

Not only must the 144,000 be identified in a particular way, but the groups distinguished in verses 40-41 must also be identified in a certain way to come up with the posttribulational picture.

According to the posttribulational understanding, these verses say the following: “Then [at the posttribulational Rapture-Second Coming] there shall be two men in the field; one [saved, representing the church] will be taken [in the posttribulational Rapture], and one [unsaved, representing the wicked] will be left [for judgment, though not all will be judged, so some will be left to be parents of the Gentile population of the Millennium].” And the same for verse 41—the one taken is raptured, and the one left is judged.

By contrast, the pretribulationist sees the verses as a general statement of the results of the specific judgments on surviving Jews and Gentiles at the Second Coming. Those who are taken are taken into the judgments and condemned, and those who are left successfully pass the judgments and are left for blessing in the kingdom.

Notice that the posttribulationist must add the stipulation that not all who are left are judged and condemned so that there will be some left to populate the earth. But therein lies an inconsistency: the Rapture will take all the redeemed, but the judgment will not include all the unredeemed. Only part of the wicked will be judged.

Pretribulationists support their view by pointing out that according to verse 39 the Flood took the people of Noah’s day into judgment; therefore, those taken at the Second Coming will also be taken into judgment.

Posttribulationists observe that a different word is used in verse 39 for “took away” than in verses 40-41, indicating two different kinds of taking away—verse 39 into judgment but verses 40-41 into heaven at the Rapture. They reinforce this argument by pointing out that the word in verses 40-41 is the same word used to describe the Rapture in John 14:3, “receive you to Myself.”

Pretribulationists note that in John 19:16 the same word used in Matthew 24:40-41 (supposedly of the Rapture according to posttribulationists) is used of taking the Lord into judgment, so obviously it could mean judgment in verses 40-41, as pretribulationism teaches. Back and forth the discussion of the words goes. What can we conclude? Simply that the words themselves are inconclusive.

But the debate is not without resolution. It can easily be settled by looking at the parallel passage in Luke 17:34-37, where the same warning about one being taken and one left is given by the Lord. However, Luke adds a question that the disciples asked: “Where, Lord?” They asked Him where those taken would be taken. They did not inquire where those left would be left. If the Lord intended us to understand that those taken would be taken in the Rapture (as posttribulationism teaches), He would have answered the question by saying heaven, or the Father’s house, or some similar expression. But His answer conveyed that they would be taken somewhere quite opposite to a blissful heaven. His answer was, “Where the body is, there will also the vultures be gathered.” Christ’s answer is a proverb about vultures appearing out of nowhere when an animal dies. Where will they be taken? Where there is death and corruption, not life and immortality. The reference is not to heaven, but to judgment. Thus the pretribulationist’s understanding of the identity of the one taken and the one left is the correct one according to Luke 17:37. A posttribulational Rapture is nowhere indicated in these verses.

VI. THE TIME OF THE SHEEP AND THE GOATS JUDGMENT

This judgment of the sheep and goats, placed at the Second Coming by pretribulationists, has to be moved to a later time if posttribulationism be consistent. The reason is that if the Rapture occurs at the end of the Tribulation, that is, at the Second Coming and if all the sheep are taken to heaven in that Rapture, how will there be any left to be assembled before Christ when He comes? They will already have gone. Or to put it another way: the Rapture-Second Coming will separate the redeemed from the wicked; yet this judgment at the Second Coming will do the same, only there will not be any righteous on the earth to separate since they will just have been raptured.

Moving this judgment also provides for unsaved survivors of the Tribulation and Second Coming to enter the Millennium in unresurrected bodies. Gundry admits, “We are therefore forced to put the judgment of the nations after the Millennium” (p. 166). Forced? Why? Because the condemnation of the goats cannot be of only a part of them, since the text says “all” will be judged. In his interpretation of those left in Matthew 24:40-41, Gundry says that represented only “a partial destruction” (p. 137), but here all are specifically said to be involved (25:32).

No text requires that there be unsaved entering the Millennium. After a few years have passed there will be people, born during the early days of the Millennium, who will grow to adulthood rejecting the Savior-King in their hearts (though outwardly obeying Him). But no text requires that there be unsaved people among the survivors of the Tribulation who enter the Millennium. Zechariah 14:16 (sometimes used to support this idea) refers to the first generation of millennial citizens who came through the judgments as redeemed, not rebels, and who will voluntarily go to Jerusalem to worship the King. But verses 17-21 move on to describe conditions throughout the Millennium, not just at the beginning. As time goes on, some will not obey the King and will have to be punished.

Perhaps the more compelling reason for the posttribulationists’ moving this judgment to the end of the Millennium is not to get goats into the Millennium as much as it is to get sheep into the judgment itself. Let me press the point again: if the judgment occurs at the Second Coming, and if the Rapture has just occurred as part of the Second Coming, and if the Rapture has removed the sheep (as it would), then where will the sheep come from to be present in this judgment?

If, however, the judgment can be moved to the close of the Millennium, then, of course, there will be both righteous and wicked people living at the conclusion of the Millennium to be present. But how, then, does one reconcile the rather diverse characteristics of Matthew 25:31-46 with those that describe what would supposedly be the same judgment at the Great White Throne in Revelation 20:11-15? Notice some of the contrasts between the judgment of the sheep and goats and the judgment at the Great White Throne.

Gundry calls the judgment of the sheep and goats a “pattern for the general judgment at the end of time” (p.167). If it is a pattern, it is rather inexact! To be sure, passages describing the same event do not each have to contain all the same details, but these two passages seem to be entirely dissimilar in their details.

If the judgment of the sheep and goats is to be moved to the end of the Millennium then of course, Matthew 25:31 must be understood as referring to the Second Coming and verse 32 to the end of the Millennium, 1,000 years later. In other words, the gap of the 1,000-year Millennium must come between verses 31 and 32. Premillennialists recognize that such gaps occur in Scripture (Isa. 9:6 and John 5:28-29, for example), so this is not an impossible idea. But is it the likely interpretation?

Matthew 25:35-40 gives the answer. Do these verses describe millennial conditions? They have to if this judgment will occur after the conclusion of the Millennium. If they do, then the Millennium will have to be a time when Christ and His followers are hungry, thirsty, naked, sick, and in prison. Those who disobey the King during the Millennium may be imprisoned, but the text says that during the period preceding the judgment Christ’s followers will be in prison. As certainly as this will not be true during the Millennium, it will be true during the Tribulation. Christ’s followers will be hungry, thirsty, naked, sick, and imprisoned during the Tribulation years, but not during the Millennium when Christ will be ruling in righteousness.

Clearly then, verses 35-40 preclude inserting a gap of 1,000 years between verses 31 and 32. The judgment will immediately follow the coming of Christ and will test people on the basis of their heart reactions to conditions that will exist during the Tribulation—conditions that will not be present during the Millennium for Christ’s followers.

VII. CONCLUSION

Where has our discussion led? To the conclusion that posttribulationism cannot provide an answer to the question, Who will be the parents of the millennial population? To be sure, posttribulationism offers some wishful thinking on the subject. They wish the 144,000 would be the Jewish parents, but in order to qualify they will have to remain unconverted throughout the Tribulation as well as through the Rapture-Second Coming, and then be converted. They wish that some of the ones left in the separation of 24:40-41 would be the Gentile parents (others will be condemned to hell). But this twists the meaning of “taken” and “left,” making the taking to heaven in the Rapture contrary to the clear meaning of “taken” in Luke 17:36. And to make these suggestions consistent, the judgment of the sheep and goats must be placed at the conclusion of the Millennium, and Matthew 25:35-40 must describe millennial conditions.

How much simpler not to have to place the Rapture at the conclusion of the Tribulation. That allows for people to accept or reject Christ during the Tribulation, some of whom will survive that time (none of whom will be raptured, because the Rapture will already have occurred) to be judged at the Second Coming (both living Jews and Gentiles), and those who pass those judgments successfully as redeemed people to go into the kingdom in earthly bodies to be the first generation of the millennial population and the parents of the next generation.

(Basic Theology)

Bloodbought & Ezekiel 13:20, who will be the parents of the millennial population?
 

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Posted by Bloodbought (Member # 4365) on :
 
Revelation 2:18–29
18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; 19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. 20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. 21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. 24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. 25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. 26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: 27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. 28 And I will give him the morning star. 29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

This was written to the pastor of the church in Thyatira. The Spirit is warning the church that they have listened to, and have been seduced by a false teacher named Jezeble that called herself a prophetess. He said He will cast her and her converts into GREAT TRIBULATION except they repent.

But, He said, unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this false doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.

True believers are not raptured out of great tribulation. They live in the midst of those who go through great tribulation, but they are protected according to the mercy of the Lord.
 

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Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
believe what you want but the Bible supports a pre-trib rapture.
betty
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Who is going to populate the Millennial Kingdom? You didn't answer.

It is interesting to contrast the churches at Ephesus and Thyatira. The Ephesian church was weakening in its love, yet faithful to judge false teachers; while the people in the assembly at Thyatira were growing in their love, but too tolerant of false doctrine. Both extremes must be avoided in the church. “Speaking the truth in love” is the biblical balance (Eph. 4:15). Unloving orthodoxy and loving compromise are both hateful to God.

Jezebel and her children (followers) would be sentenced to tribulation (affliction, distress), disease, and death. It doesn't say "THE Tribulation".

Not everyone in the assembly was unfaithful to the Lord, and He had a special word for them. They had separated themselves from the false doctrine and compromising practices of Jezebel and her followers, which Christ denounces as “the depths of Satan” (note the contrast in 1 Cor. 2:10). The Lord had no special demands to make; He simply wanted them to hold fast in their resistance to evil. “Till I come” refers to Christ’s return for His people, at which time He will reward them for their faithfulness (see Rev. 3:3; 16:15; 22:7, 17, 20). This is the first mention in Revelation of the Lord’s coming for the church, the event we commonly call the Rapture.

(Wiersbe)
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 

quote:

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True believers are not raptured out of great tribulation. They live in the midst of those who go through great tribulation, but they are protected according to the mercy of the Lord.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Betty Louise:
believe what you want but the Bible supports a pre-trib rapture.
betty

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I agree, but sadly not everyone understands the scriptures. Alot of times that's due to ego and wanting to have things their own way. Which is never a good path to wander down.
 

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Posted by Eduardo Grequi (Member # 3984) on :
 
Amen Betty! Look to the east for redemption draweth nigh!
 

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Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
Eduardo,

I pray ever day for the rapture.
May God bless you and all of us, as we serve until the day our Redeemer comes for us.
Betty
 

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Posted by Bloodbought (Member # 4365) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Betty Louise:
believe what you want but the Bible supports a pre-trib rapture.
betty

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quote:

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Originally posted by Betty Louise:
I do not believe that verse is about the Church Age and I am not alone.
betty

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Thyatira as well as the other 6 existed after Pentecost. Only 2 of those 7 Churches did Christ not find fault with.

Pre-tribbers don't read and understand Revelation,because they don't think they are going to be here anyway. What a rude awakening will be in store for the last generation,whenever that comes.
 

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Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
yes but while we can learn from those Churches they do not exist today. they are no proof of the rapture not being a trib rapture.
I sure want to be around the throne when you complain to God for having a pre trib rapture because of course you think you know more then God does.
betty
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Bloodbought:

quote:

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Originally posted by Betty Louise:
believe what you want but the Bible supports a pre-trib rapture.
betty

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I respect your belief, but there were those in the church in Thyatira who were about to be cast into great tribulation and there was no pre-trib rapture.

Unless you choose not to believe this truth.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ezekiel 13:20:
Poor,folks deceived by ear tickling pre-trib preachers/teachers of the modern day "bail out" false doctrine of pre-trib.
Totally unprepared for what's coming,so sad.

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quote:

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THE SECRET RAPTURE - IS IT SCRIPTURAL? (Page 4)

Ezekiel 13:20
posted February 18, 2011 19:19
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Anti-christ comes in Peacefully and Prosperously saying he is God.
The death he causes is spititual death.
The death spoken of in Revelation for the most part is spiritual death. Satan is spiritual death,he ain't to concerned with killing someone physically.
Anti-christ pretends to be Christ. A better name for anti-christ would be Facsimile-christ.
Those who have watched the death and destrution movies,will be in for quite a surprise when anti-christ does appear,they will think he is Jesus here to rapture them away.


What would a man give in exchange for his soul?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Bloodbought:


While the Spirit intended what He said to be sent to the Pastor of the church inThyatira, it was intended as a lesson to all churches in a similar spiritual condition down to this present time in which we live.
Do you mean to say that when the Spirit said He would cast them into great tribulation if they didn’t repent that it didn’t happen?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Bloodbought:


How do you know that one great tribulation is different from another great tribulation? Scripture makes no distinction between them other than they will become more severe as the end draws near. There has been great tribulation from 2000 years ago until now. All we have to do is look around us and listen to the news and we find great tribulation all around the globe. Things will not get better, they will grow steadily worse and worse until there is little or no faith on the earth as it was in the days of Noah. Those of us who trust Christ have no need to panic, because He is our shield in the day of trouble.

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quote:

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You asked,
"Who is going to populate the Millennial Kingdom?"

A thousand years may represent the totality of the church age. Who knows. Christ reigns today and one day He will purge the earth by fire and set up an everlasting kingdom.

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Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
Betty,

You're absolutely right. But, they think there is no Tribulation, or that it will be a time of peace and prosperity. They're living in denial.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Bloodbought:
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal...and who shall be able to stand?

Can anyone see a bodily rapture of the saints in any of this portion of scripture? I don’t, unless by rapture you mean their body is killed and their soul goes to heaven.

1 Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ezekiel 13:20:
Daniel 7:21-22
v.21 I beheld,and the same horn(anti-christ)made war with the saints,and prevailed against them:
v.22 Untill the Ancient of Days(True Christ)came(Second Coming not "bail out rapture)and judgement was given to the saints of the Most High;and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

II Thessalonians 2:1-4
v.1 Now we beseech you,brethern by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,and by our gathering together unto Him.
v.2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind,or be troubled,neither by spirit,nor by word,nor by letter as from us,as that the day of Christ is at hand.
Let no man deceive you by any means;for that day SHALL NOT come,except there come a falling away first,(FALLING AWAY FROM THE TRUTH)and that man of sin be revealed,the son of perdition. (anti-christ)
v.4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God,or that is worshipped;so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God,shewing himself that he is God.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ezekiel 13:20:

quote:

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Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
Betty,

You're absolutely right. But, they think there is no Tribulation, or that it will be a time of peace and prosperity. They're living in denial.

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Oh there will be tribulation alright. How would anti-christ come in peacefully and prosperously if the world has not gone through a terrible time of tribulation?
God will protect His own during that time. The woman flees into the wilderness. (Rev.12)He doesn't give her a pair of wings to fly away with!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ezekiel 13:20:
There's only one Shepherd and there's only one fold. God does not have two plans of Salvation.
The woman is not the Jews,it is the True Church,the Bride of Christ.
Christ only returns once after the tribulation,not twice as some false teachers/preachers say.

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There is only one Shepherd, our Lord Jesus Christ.

John 10:16
I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.

The Good Shepherd unites the flock. And the unity does not come from the fact that we're all shoved into the same fold, it comes from the fact that we all love and serve the same Shepherd. It's not an ecumenical unity, it doesn't come about because of the good work of the council for Jews and Christians, or whatever it is. It doesn't come about because of some ecclesiastical structure, it's the unity of love and obedience to Christ. If you're a Jew and love and obey Christ, if you're a Gentile and love and obey Christ, that's the same flock with one Shepherd.

The woman is Israel who gave birth to Jesus the Christ.

Christ only returns once after the Tribulation. This is true. We are Raptured before the Tribulation, and He comes to Earth after the Tribulation. None of the Rapture passages say He comes to Earth - they say He calls and we go to Him.
 

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Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
I see you & BL still have the sillyness weed seeders at bay,lol.

Keep up the Good and Faithful work my sisters,

BigC,

Maintain....


 

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Posted by Ezekiel 13:20 (Member # 8124) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by WildB:
I see you & BL still have the sillyness weed seeders at bay,lol.

Keep up the Good and Faithful work my sisters,

BigC,

Maintain....

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quote:

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You show your ignorance if you think tares are weeds.
I'm not a tare! Those who teach the ever popular pre-trib rapture have been deceived by tares.
There's a big difference between a weed and a tare.
I guess Biblical ignorance can be expected from NIV readers.

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WildB didn't say anything about tares.

But anyway...since you brought it up...


tare
   
–noun

1. any of various vetches, especially Vicia sativa.
2. the seed of a vetch.
3. Bible - a noxious weed, probably the darnel.


A noxious tare!!! Oh no no!!! Icky. No no. Nope. Uh-uh. No no no no!
 

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Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
WildB,

Ezk. can't help it, he has invested all his hopes in weeds and is afraid not to use them.

I guess we just got to let him grow his weeds and let God deal with him, BUT I am not going to allow him to give people that they can wait until after the rapture to get saved. TODAY IS THE DAY OF SALVATION.
betty
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Amen Betty. They may not even survive the chaos caused by the Rapture...

...and tares can be deadly.

"...bind them in bundles to burn them."


Tares (Darnel)


A friend recently wrote to me about how prolific her garden was, but that the weeds were prospering as well. She said that because of the rains, the weeds would be easy to pull up. I thought how when we allow the rain of God's word into our life, the lies, untruths and deceptions are also easy to weed out. But if the word is not given its place of priority, then when those evils take root and the ground hardens, how hard it is to pull up the weeds! Have you ever tried to pull a weed out of a dry, caked, hardened piece of ground? What usually happens is you pull off the green foliage above the soil, but the root remains, only to quickly grow up again. Notice the word "quickly." Weeds don't grow slowly. But the trick in pulling them up successfully is to soak the ground with water, soften the soil and then weed-pulling becomes a pleasure again. I remember when I was a boy and I had to weed my Dad's garden. The tops of the weeds would come off and I would say to myself, "Oh, well, at least it LOOKS LIKE I got that weed out. Dad won't know," and I would leave it, being satisfied with that. In the spiritual realm, apathy towards the weeds in our life is just as deadly to us as the real weeds are to the future fruit of a vegetable garden. Water, or the word of God, plays a crucial part in both the natural realm and the spiritual in staying weed-free.

Jesus told the parable of the tares and the wheat in Matthew 13:24-30. The tares are a weed plant, but Jesus didn't say to pull up the tares. He said to let the wheat and the tares grow up together and the angels would deal with the tares at the end of the age. I sure would have liked to apply that to my Dad's idea of weeding. The difference between the garden I weeded and the wheat field Jesus spoke of is this: my garden was vegetables, planted and grown in rows with dirt paths between. The weeds were easy to get to and pulling them without harming the good plants was easy enough. Wheat is grown in fields, each sheaf next to another with no paths, creating a carpet effect when looked at from a distance. Pulling up the tares in this situation would endanger the wheat stocks as well. You just don't weed wheat.

Jesus said,

Mat 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Holman's Bible Dictionary defines TARES as follows:

"TARES KJV term for grassy weeds resembling wheat, generally identified as darnel (genus Lolium)"

It is pretty much accepted today that the tares Jesus spoke of are darnel of the genus Lolium. Cephalaria syriaca is also a possibility mentioned by some researchers, but based on archeological studies, its evident lack in Biblical times would seem to indicate it is not the tare of the Bible. Secular dictionaries also define the tare as most likely being darnel:

"Darnel is a weed grass (probably bearded darnel or Lolium temulentum) that looks very much like wheat until it is mature, when the seeds reveal a great difference. Darnel seeds aren't good for much except as chicken feed or to burn to prevent the spread of this weed" (World English Dictionary).

Easton's Bible Dictionary describes "tares" as follows:

"the bearded darnel, mentioned only in Matt. 13:25-30. It is the Lolium temulentum, a species of rye-grass, the seeds of which are a strong soporific poison. It bears the closest resemblance to wheat till the ear appears, and only then the difference is discovered. It grows plentifully in Syria and Palestine."

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition 2000 defines "soporific: as:

ADJECTIVE: 1. Inducing or tending to induce sleep. 2. Drowsy.
NOUN: A drug or other substance that induces sleep; a hypnotic.

Smith's Bible Dictionary offers these comments on the "tares":

"There can be little doubt that the zizania of the parable, Mt 13:25, denotes the weed called "darnel" (Lolium temulentum). . . . The grains of the L. temulentum, if eaten, produce convulsions, and even death."

A very interesting note I found on Botanical.com concerning darnel was this:

"The admixture of the grain with those of the nutritious cereals amongst which it is often found growing should be guarded against, as its properties are generally regarded as deleterious. Gerard tells us: 'the new bread wherein Darnel is eaten hot causeth drunkenness.' When Darnel has been given medicinally in a harmful quantity, it is recorded to have produced all the symptoms of drunkenness: a general trembling, followed by inability to walk, hindered speech and vomiting. For this reason the French call Darnel: 'Ivraie,' from Ivre (drunkenness); the word Darnel is itself of French origin and testifies to its intoxicating qualities, being derived from an old French word Darne, signifying stupefied. The ancients supposed it to cause blindness, hence with the Romans, lolio victitare, to live on Darnel, was a phrase applied to a dim-sighted person.

"The alleged poisonous properties of Darnel are now generally believed to be due to a fungus" (http://www.botanical.com/botanical/mgmh/g/grasse34.html#dar).

Interesting also is the fact that farmers in the modern wheatbelt of America have to take measures to control the effects of tares (in this case, lolium rigidum) on their cattle due to bacteria (ARGT, Annual Ryegrass Toxicity). In a 30 year study, 250,000 sheep and 600 cattle died because of ARGT, not to mention the effects of intoxification on a score of others.

Recapping the symptoms in the various definitions above concerning darnel and/or its fungus, they are:

1. Sleepiness, drowsiness
2. Hypnotic episodes
3. Convulsions
4. Drunkenness, intoxication
5. Trembling
6. Inability to walk
7. Hindered speech
8. Vomiting
9. Stupification
10. Dim-sightedness

Other sites I visited include giddiness, apathy and various abnormal sensations as effects of darnel.

In the early days of "the move of God," we saw all of these things and they are still happening today. Not only is there darnel in the Church, the darnel has apparently been affected by fungus. Not only that, but one must wonder how many cases of spiritual blindness and death have occurred.

Some say darnel in itself is not harmful, often being used for hay for livestock. They say that it's when the parasite fungus takes up residence within the seed head that it becomes deadly in the physical realm. But, in Jesus' parable, the analogy does not hold water. Spiritually, darnel has the destiny of being cast into the fire. Wheat is to be gathered into the barn. It may not appear that spiritual darnel is that dangerous, but when one looks at the end result, it is deadly:

30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

There is a time to distinguish between darnel and wheat. The fruit of the darnel is smaller than the fruit produced by true wheat. They say the difference is very distinguishable and obvious, and the difference in the sizes of the seeds makes separating them an easy task. There are those who have convulsed, been made drunk, trembled uncontrollably, stammered in their speech, were stupified, turned giddy, etc., who have tried to tell us that that was wheat. There are also those who have not fallen into such things, but have brought confusion into the Church with darnel such as the non-trinitarian doctrine, a watered-down gospel, and agendas that lead the Church off into corporate efforts God never sanctioned. Are these things wheat or darnel? Some are obviously darnel, while with others, it takes time to make the distinction. This I know for sure: the One who planted the good seed which bears fruit will come back to harvest His wheat, and not one grain of darnel will be found in the barn.

http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/tares.html
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
How The Rapture Is Different From The Second Coming





http://www.bibleprophesy.org/15differences.htm
 

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Posted by Bloodbought (Member # 4365) on :
 
In Noah’s time, which came first, the raising of the ark or the wrath of the rain poured out on the wicked? They came together. It makes no sense to say that the ark was lifted before judgment fell.

In the same way, it makes no sense to say that the saints will rapture before judgment falls. There was no pre-trib rapture before the flood; salvation and judgment came at the same time and on the same day and that is how it will be when Christ returns. The saints will be caught up while at the exact same time the wicked will experience the wrath of God,

Noah was not taken up to heaven, but he was in the ark, a picture of those who are in Christ and he was as it ware, lifted into the air just enough to be above the destruction of the wicked and where he could not even see their dilemma, He could only look up, because there was only a window in the top of the ark. After the judgment of the wicked the ark came back down, a picture of Christ coming with the church to set up His kingdom.

Once the ark began to rise there was no second chance for anyone, all who were not in the ark were destroyed. In the same way, all who are not in Christ when He returns will be destroyed.

Any second chance teaching is false.

The church will not be effected by the wrath of God, but they do experience tribulation, although they sorrow not as others which have no hope, because His grace is sufficient in every trial.
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
On the very same day Noah and Shem and Ham and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife and the three wives of his sons with them, entered the ark, they and every beast after its kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth after its kind, and every bird after its kind, all sorts of birds. So they went into the ark to Noah, by twos of all flesh in which was the breath of life. Those that entered, male and female of all flesh, entered as God had commanded him; and the LORD closed it behind him.

Then the flood came upon the earth for forty days, and the water increased and lifted up the ark, so that it rose above the earth. (Genesis 7:13-17)

It was the LORD who closed the door of the ark. Noah and his family were out of harm's way BEFORE the flood began. No, they weren't taken to Heaven - there is only one Rapture, (aside from Enoch), and that is still future. But it shows that the righteous were safe before the judgment began. And they stayed safe until the judgment was over. The fact that the ark did not rise until the water lifted it up is not relevant. The important thing is that the Lord shut the door to keep Noah safe before the flood began.

Note Mat 25:10:
And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

And Revelation 4:1 - 2 (NASB)
After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things.” 2Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne was standing in heaven, and One sitting on the throne.

The ark did not "come down" btw - it landed on a high mountain.

In the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, the ark rested upon the mountains of Ararat. (Genesis 8:4)
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Pre Tribulation Rapture Types in Genesis

Enoch

Not much is said about Enoch in Scripture, but he has an interesting story, he was "taken", it does not say he died. There is "The book of Enoch" which is very interesting reading, but it is not considered inspired. Enoch lived 365 years, which is interesting as there are 365 days in a year...

Gen 5:21 And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah:
Gen 5:22 And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:23 And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:
Gen 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Enoch's testimony of the Second Coming

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

And when Enoch's son Methuselah died, then the flood came, in the same year.

Genesis 5:27 And all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred sixty and nine years: and he died.
Genesis 5:25 And Methuselah lived an hundred eighty and seven years, and begat Lamech.
Genesis 5:28 And Lamech lived an hundred eighty and two years, and begat a son:
Genesis 5:29 And he called his name Noah
Methuselah lived to the age of 969 years old.

When he was 187, Lamech was born and he lived another 182 years 'til Noah was born.
187 + 182 = 369. So, Noah was born when Methuselah was 369.

The Flood came when Noah was 600. 600+369 is 969, which is how old Methusalah was when he died, so scripture confirms that Methusalah died when the flood came...

Gen 7:6 And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth.

So after Methuselah died at age 969, that was the same year the flood came.
Enoch walked with God, and Enoch could symbolize the Father.
Methuselah, the son of Enoch, could typify the Son of God?

Do both Enoch and Methuselah teach about the rapture?

Jesus was taken up to God in Acts 1, the first to be resurrected in an incorruptable body to immortality. Methuselah did not have immortality, and was not raptured as Enoch, but Methuselah did live longer than any man in the bible. Methuselah's death just before the flood could symbolize the pretribulation rapture. Enoch, was taken, which is like the rapture. Can we accept this if we realize that Jesus symbolized both the Father and the Son?

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Thus, Methuselah's death right before the flood, (through the type of his father Enoch's rapture, through the type of Jesus's rapture who symbolized both the Father and the Son) is a type of the rapture right before the tribulation.

Of course, we can simplify, and just look at Enoch, and say Enoch is a type of "rapture" prior to the tribulation of the flood. But through Methuselah, and Jesus, I believe we have a more clear understanding, that the rapture happens right before the tribulation, the same year.

Noah entering the ark

Scriptures in Matthew 24, Luke 17, and 2 Peter 2, indicate that the story of Noah teaches about the return of Jesus:

Matt 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Matt 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Matt 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luke 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

2 Peter 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

2 Peter 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

Those who deny the pretribulation rapture call attention to the fact that Noah "went through" the tribulation of the Flood. Also, they point out that as the wicked were destroyed in the flood, so too will the wicked be taken away at the end of the tribulation. I don't disagree with either point; that Noah survived the time of trouble, and that the wicked will be destoryed at the end of the tribulation. But those are NOT the only comparisons to be made.

The Bible emphasizes that the people are acting as if LIFE IS PERFECTLY NORMAL, "they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day" (Matt 24:28), that the world is taking NO NOTE of the COMING judgment.

But the great tribulation to come IS a time of judgment, and DURING that judgment, life will NOT be normal. Half the world will be killed as first a quarter of the people on the earth die, and then a remaining third die. Men will be tormented for five months with pain from the plague of the mark of the beast. Men will try to kill themselves, and not be able. There will be supernatural beings such as the antichrist and the two witnesses who both have the power to command fire to come down from heaven. This is NOT a description of life as normal.

Further, Peter speaks of deliverance; that God will "deliver the godly out of temptations" (2 Peter 2:9), and this is a statement about how Noah's experience is a comparison to how the pretribulation rapture will deliver the righteous before the tribulation.

What WAS Noah's experience? Was it like those saints of the tribulation who will face martyrdom and persecution? NO! Was Noah being persecuted by the wicked during the time of judgment? NO! Did Noah have to endure the tribulations of the judgment and swim hard or hold his breath underwater in the SAME ENVIRONMENT as the wicked? NO!

What WAS Noah's experience? As we will see, Noah went into the ark, the place where God was, and God shut the door behind him, and Noah floated above the waters which brought the judgment that came upon the world. Likewise, the pretribulation rapture will take believers up into heaven, through the "open door", to be in the place where Jesus Christ is, above the earth where the judgment will come upon the world.

Here are a few specific details of how Noah's example teaches about the pretribulation rapture.

God calls Noah into the ark, and 7 days later, the flood comes. So, Noah is a type of the rapture before the 7 year tribulation, at the end of which all of God's enemies are destroyed at Armageddon, like in the flood.

Genesis 7:1 And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.

Genesis 7:4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.
Genesis 7:5 And Noah did according unto all that the LORD commanded him.

I understand verse 4 & 5 to mean that Noah obeyed, and went in when the Lord told him to.
Controversy arrives when people forget that Noah was the type to obey God, and they assume the "selfsame" day in verse 13 refers to the same day the rain fell. The only way you can assume that Noah went into the ark late, is if you assume that Noah did not obey the Lord for a period of seven days. Do you think it is realistic that Noah, after spending 120 years to build an ark, would disobey a direct command from God for a period of 7 full days right before the world was destroyed, in direct contrast to the scripture in verse 5?

I think that the "selfsame day" in verse 13 refers to the action phrase at the end of verse 16, "as God had commanded him: and the LORD shut him in".

Genesis 7:13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;
...
Genesis 7:16 And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the LORD shut him in.

Note, back up in Gen 7:1, we saw that God calls to Noah from inside the ark, to come in, which is similar to "Come up hither" in Rev. And the door is also a strong symbol of the rapture.

Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

The parallel gets even stronger when we realize Noah's ark is a type of heaven.
Noah's ark is like the ark of the covenant, in that God's presence is in both. Remember, God told Noah to "come into" the ark, indicating that God was in the ark. (Genesis 7:1) God's presence was also in the ark of the covenant:

Exodus 25:22 And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.

Even the construction ratios are the same: 3 to 5. Noahs' ark is 30 to 50, The ark of the covenant is 1.5 to 2.5 cubits.

Gen 6:14 Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch.
Gen 6:15 And this is the fashion which thou shalt make it of: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, the breadth of it fifty cubits, and the height of it thirty cubits.

Exodus 25:10 And they shall make an ark of shittim wood: two cubits and a half shall be the length thereof, and a cubit and a half the breadth thereof, and a cubit and a half the height thereof.

The ark of the covenant is a symbol of heavenly things.

Hebrews 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Thus, the ark that Noah went into, like the ark of the covenant, is also a symbol of heaven, like that heavenly bridal chamber of the wedding. And Noah, entering the ark seven days before the flood, to be in the place where God was, and God shutting the door behind him, is a symbol of the pre tribulation rapture.

Num 14:34 After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise.

Ezek 4:6 And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.

Here is an interesting verse, if we consider that waters represent people from Rev 17:15.

Gen 8:13 And it came to pass in the six hundredth and first year, in the first month, the first day of the month, the waters were dried up from off the earth:

Revelation 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the ***** sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

As the first day of the first month of the calandar year, it supports the Feast of Trumpets rapture, as the Feast of Trumpets takes place on the first day of the 7th religious month, which is the first calandar month of the new year.
Num 29:1 And in the seventh month, on the first day of the month, ye shall have an holy convocation; ye shall do no servile work: it is a day of blowing the trumpets unto you.

Thus, if the waters represent people, and the waters "were dried up from off the earth" on a certain day, then that indicates the rapture on "the Feast of Trumpets".

Further, Christians carry the waters of the Holy Spirit. At the rapture, the waters being dried up from off the earth is like the "removal of the restrainer" in 2 Thess 2.

Noah mentioned elsewhere in the New Testament:

Hebrews 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

1 Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

http://www.bibleprophesy.org/rapturegenesis2.htm
 

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Posted by Bloodbought (Member # 4365) on :
 
It was on the same day that Noah entered the ark that it started to rain. Noah went into the ark because of the waters of the flood.

Gen 7:7 And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood.

From the day Noah went into the ark it rained seven days and the water was on the earth for forty days.

Gen 7:10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.
11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.

If as those who hold to pre-trib rapture believe that Noah is a type of the rapture, where in the flood story does it suggest that there was another chance for some when the door of the ark was shut and it lifted off the ground?

Once Christ comes for His church the day of grace is ended.

If you think there is still hope after He takes His church you are deceived.

Prepare to meet Him before He returns or you will be lost forever.
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Read your Bible slowly, carefully and completely so you don't misunderstand what it is saying.

quote:

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It was on the same day that Noah entered the ark that it started to rain. Noah went into the ark because of the waters of the flood.

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From the day Noah went into the ark it rained seven days and the water was on the earth for forty days.

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If as those who hold to pre-trib rapture believe that Noah is a type of the rapture, where in the flood story does it suggest that there was another chance for some when the door of the ark was shut and it lifted off the ground?

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Once Christ comes for His church the day of grace is ended.

If you think there is still hope after He takes His church you are deceived.

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Originally posted by Bloodbought:
According to pre-trib believers, the seven days in the flood story represents the seven year tribulation.

Now from a careful read we note that the ark did not lift until the end of the seven days because the rain didn’t start until then. That would leave the rapture at the end of the seven years.

The pre-trib theory just doesn’t add up.

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Originally posted by Carol Swenson:

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Originally posted by Bloodbought:
According to pre-trib believers, the seven days in the flood story represents the seven year tribulation.

Now from a careful read we note that the ark did not lift until the end of the seven days because the rain didn’t start until then. That would leave the rapture at the end of the seven years.

The pre-trib theory just doesn’t add up.

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I've never heard that the seven days represent the seven years of Tribulation. Nothing happened in those seven days except preparation for the flood. Could you please tell the readers what your source is for that information?

As I said before, for the ark to float on the water and rise as the water rises is not relevant. The important thing is that God saved them from the judgment. I don't think that during the Rapture we will float up into the sky. 1 Corinthians says that in the twinkling of an eye we will be transformed.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Bloodbought:
In Noah’s time, which came first, the raising of the ark or the wrath of the rain poured out on the wicked? They came together. It makes no sense to say that the ark was lifted before judgment fell.

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What came 1st is Noah's Faith in the Word of God and it was this Faith that lifted the ark out of the gopher wood, which took 120 years.

The water existed in the firmaments from creation for the Lords 1st Judgement as does the fire for the 2nd.

2 Petter 3

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
 

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Posted by John Hale (Member # 8034) on :
 


I guess it's true, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

All three camps of eschatology are present in this interpretation. It used to puzzle me how all three contradictory eschatological views could quote scripture (since the Word of God is infallible).

Then it occurred to me... all three camps are correct.

It was the setting / time frame that everyone got wrong.

The 70th Week of Daniel is unmistakably a seven year period of time. But it is only the false presumption that people interpret the great tribulation to be a full seven years long.

From Daniel and Revelation it is prophesied to be three and a half years long.

Daniel 12:7 (NIV)
7 The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, “It will be for a time, times and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed.”


Revelation 12:14 (NIV)
14 The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach.

Revelation 11:2 (NIV)
2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months.

Revelation 13:5 (NIV)
5 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for forty-two months.

And the first half of the 70th Week of Daniel:

Revelation 11:3 (NIV)
3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”

Revelation 12:6 (NIV)
6 The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

Rather than falling into the unfounded tradition of one seven-year tribulation, rightly dividing the 70th Week of Daniel into two three-and-a-half-year tribulations (plural)... all three camps are correct.

The rapture will occur in the middle of the 70th Week of Daniel prior to the great tribulation in the latter half of the 70th Week of Daniel and after the first half of the 70th Week of Daniel when a tribulation of believers will take place.

Revelation 12:17 (NIV)
17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring—those who obey God’s commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

Revelation 13:5-10 (NIV)
5 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for forty-two months.
6 He opened his mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven.
7 He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.
8 All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.
9 He who has an ear, let him hear.
10 If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity he will go. If anyone is to be killed with the sword, with the sword he will be killed. This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints.

Revelation 3:10 (NIV)
10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.

Isaiah 26:19-20 (NIV)
19 But your dead will live; their bodies will rise. You who dwell in the dust, wake up and shout for joy. Your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead.
20 Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until his wrath has passed by.

Daniel 70 th Week
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
John

I appreciate that you used the code I asked you to, but the reason I gave you that code is so you can easily reduce the width and height of your charts to fit the Christian BBS threads.

879 X 594
 

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Posted by John Hale (Member # 8034) on :
 
I tried to but it wouldn't work. I thought maybe you'd solved this problem.
 

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Posted by John Hale (Member # 8034) on :
 
better?
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Yes! Thank you!
 

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Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
Mr J,

Its really not that important.

Go experiment on another board, you are

showing your sillyness side.

A Real BAC needs not grafts and whistels for direction.

You say,

"There is no shame in this... LOL so long as you set out to become so acquainted with the Holy Spirit you no longer need the props / crutches..."


I really dont give a care what YOU think. Personally, I would take u behind the boiler and show you some fire. LOL.

Stop corrupting the simplicity that is in Christ.


 

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Posted by John Hale (Member # 8034) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by WildB:
Mr J,

Its really not that important.

Go experiment on another board, you are

showing your sillyness side.

A Real BAC needs not grafts and whistels for direction.

You say,

"There is no shame in this... LOL so long as you set out to become so acquainted with the Holy Spirit you no longer need the props / crutches..."


I really dont give a care what YOU think. Personally, I would take u behind the boiler and show you some fire. LOL.

Stop corrupting the simplicity that is in Christ.

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quote:

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Originally posted by John Hale:

quote:

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Originally posted by WildB:
Mr J,

Its really not that important.

Go experiment on another board, you are

showing your sillyness side.

A Real BAC needs not grafts and whistels for direction.

You say,

"There is no shame in this... LOL so long as you set out to become so acquainted with the Holy Spirit you no longer need the props / crutches..."


I really dont give a care what YOU think. Personally, I would take u behind the boiler and show you some fire. LOL.

Stop corrupting the simplicity that is in Christ.

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Carol?

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quote:

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Originally posted by John Hale:
I am posting a legitimate series of posts here all biblical. You incite me to stop based on... well nothing to counter my points thus far other than you simply don't agree with it or do not understand it... so you impugn me even with veiled threats you try to silence me. I have broken no board rules but you have. And Carol is not Mommy, but a board moderator. I am simply asking her to do her job.

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quote:

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I guess it's true, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

---

quote:

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A Real BAC needs not grafts and whistels for direction.

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quote:

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"There is no shame in this... LOL so long as you set out to become so acquainted with the Holy Spirit you no longer need the props / crutches..."

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He's just pointing out that your chart is one of the props / crutches you said we shouldn't need.
 

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Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
Alright Big C I stand down.
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Why The Pre-Wrath Rapture Theory Is Wrong

Robert Van Kampen was the inventor of the three-quarters rapture theory in the late 1970s. According to one who was there, he first eliminated pretribulationism and then excluded posttribulationism. Thus, he had to come up with another view. That view is what he called the "pre-wrath" rapture theory. That title is a misnomer, since pretribulationism is 100% pre-wrath. If we follow consistency in labeling, Van Kampen's view should be called the three-quarters rapture position, since he teaches that the church will be raptured somewhere in the middle of the last three and a half years of the 70th week of Daniel.

Van Kampen spent a number of years searching for an advocate of his newly developed viewpoint until he was finally able to persuade Marvin Rosenthal to adopt and champion his new theory. I have a friend who was interviewed extensively by Van Kampen (in the 80s) for the pastorate of the church he attended in the Chicago area. My friend spent hours on the phone with Van Kampen, as he tried to convince him of his strange rapture view. In the end, my friend could not agree with Van Kampen. It was clear that Van Kampen was searching for someone to champion his rapture position. Rosenthal wrote a book called The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church, which was published by Thomas Nelson in 1990. Later Van Kampen came out with his own book called The Sign (three editions, 1992, 1999, 2000) from Crossway Books. He then had published The Rapture Question Answered: Plain and Simple (1997) with Revell.


What Is The Three-Quarters Rapture Theory?

Van Kampen's three-quarters rapture view is a blend of midtribulational and posttribulational rationale. Instead of seeing the 24 terms describing the 70th week of Daniel as denoting various characteristics of a single period, Van Kampen chops them into compartmental segments that contain either the wrath of man and Satan or the wrath of God. Through redefinition, Van Kampen limits the wrath of God to the final year and three-quarters of the seven-year period and deduces that the rapture occurs right before that time period. Van Kampen distinguishes the rapture and the second coming with a gap of one and three-quarters years between them. He has the church continuing through the first three-quarters of the tribulation until the three-quarters point rapture occurs.

Van Kampen's theory requires several unique features concerning the church and the tribulation. First, he chops the seventieth week of Daniel into three parts: 1) the beginning of birth pangs (first three and a half years), 2) the great tribulation (first half of the second half of the seven years), 3) the day of the Lord (last half of the second half of the seven years, plus a thirty day period after the second coming). By arbitrarily compartmentalizing the 70th week of Daniel in this way, Van Kampen prepares the way for his view by saying that the first two period (first three-quarters of the seven-year period) is the wrath of man and Satan but not God's wrath. By speculating that God's wrath only occurs during the last quarter of the 70th week of Daniel, he concludes that the rapture occurs at that point and keeps the church out of the wrath of God.


Some Reasons Why Van Kampen's Theory Is Wrong

This view of the rapture is not only built upon faulty interpretation of the Bible, but also upon flawed data and logic. In 1990 Marvin Rosenthal released the first published expression of the Van Kampen rapture view in all of history. I read and detected many problems with the book. Rosenthal made the following statement: "The Greek word thlipsis, translated tribulation or affliction in many English Bibles, occurs twenty times in the New Testament" (Rosenthal, Pre-Wrath, p. 103). My concordance showed that it actually occurs 45 times. Why had he not even considered over half of the New Testament references?

The point that Rosenthal was attempting to make when he committed such a glaring factual error was that the word "tribulation" is never used to refer to the first half of Daniel's 70th week (Rosenthal, Pre-Wrath, pp. 103-08). This is not the case since Matthew 24:9 is an instance where "tribulation" (KJV = "afflicted") refers to the first half of Daniel's 70th week. Dr. John McLean explains:

Rosenthal has not only overstated his case but has stated as true fact that which is clearly false. A cursory reading of a Greek concordance reveals that the word "tribulation" (thlipsis) is used in prophetic contexts to refer to both the first and second halves of the seventieth week of Daniel. Matthew 24:9, which chronologically relates to the first half of the seventieth week as evidenced by its preceding the midpoint of the abomination of desolation (Matt. 24:15-21) states: "Then they will deliver you to tribulation (thlipsis), and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations on account of My name" (NASB). Clearly the biblical text describes the first half of the seventieth week as a time of tribulation.

The second half of the seventieth week is also described as a time of tribulation. Second Thessalonians 1:6 uses the Greek word thlipsin while referring to the second coming of Christ which occurs during the second half of the seventieth week of Daniel: "For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction (thlipsin) those who afflicted you" (NASB). Therefore, it is proper and even biblical to refer to, and even describe, the seventieth week of Daniel as "The Tribulation," or "A Time of Tribulation."

Interestingly, Rosenthal restricts thlipsin "tribulation" to simply trials to be experienced (Rosenthal, Pre-Wrath, p. 237), while at the same time locating such tribulation in the first half of Daniel's 70th week (Rosenthal, Pre-Wrath, p. 152). Like Dr. McLean and pretribulationists, Rosenthal equates Matthew 24:9 with the fifth seal judgment as stated in Revelation 6:9-11. Yet if Rosenthal admits the obvious logical conclusion-that the tribulation in Matthew 24:9 is the tribulation-then it would provide another reason that contradicts his new view and would support pretribulationism.


God's Wrath

Van Kampen defines only the final quarter of Daniel's 70th week as the only time of God's wrath. He sees the first three quarters as the wrath of man and Satan. But does the Bible make such distinctions? It does not!


Wrath in Zephaniah

Zephaniah 1:14-18 heaps together a cluster of terms that characterize the future Day of the Lord. Verse 14 labels this time as "the great day of the Lord" and "the day of the Lord." Then verse 15-18 describe this time with the following descriptions: "that day is a day of wrath," "a day of trouble and distress," "a day of wasteness and desolation," "a day of darkness and gloominess," "a day of clouds and thick darkness," "a day of the trumpet and alarm," "I will bring distress upon men," and "the day of the Lord's wrath." The context supports the notion that all these descriptives apply to the Day of the Lord. Such biblical usage does not allow an interpreter to chop the Day of the Lord into compartmental segments as Van Kampen insists. The text plainly says that the Day of the Lord is a time of both tribulation and God's wrath. All of the many descriptives in this passage provide a characterization of the Day of the Lord that applies to the entire seven-year period. The Zephaniah passage clearly contradicts the basis upon which Van Kampen attempts to build his recently developed theory. Zephaniah is not alone in providing an obstacle to the Van Kampen speculation.

Wrath in Revelation


Revelation 6:1-17 records the six seal judgments, which are the first reported judgments of the tribulation. Revelation 6 and the seal judgments also contradict the Van Kampen formulation since the Bible describes all six judgments as ". . . the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come . . ." (Rev. 6:16c-17a). Even though Van Kampen cannot recognize God's wrath, the unbelievers at the beginning of the seven-year tribulation will be able to. Revelation 5 reveals that only the Lamb (Christ) was qualified to open the seals that would begin the first judgments of the tribulation. As we connect the dots of Revelation 5 and 6, there is no basis for saying that the events of the seal judgments are somehow disconnected from Scripture's characterization as God's wrath. The following observations about the seal judgments support such a connection:


• The Lamb is the Individual Who breaks, and thus initiates, all six of the seals (Revelation 6:1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 12) clearly indicating that He (God) is the source of the events or wrath. These are explicit references to the wrath of God, not the wrath of man or Satan as taught by Van Kampen.


• One quarter of the earth's population is killed (Rev. 6:8).


• The fifth seal reveals that multitudes of Christian martyrs are slain as a result of seal activity, which has to be considered the wrath of the Lamb. God allows this to occur when the Lamb breaks the seal in this part of the seal judgments.


• At the end of the six seal judgments an assessment is given as follows: "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" (Rev. 6:16-17). "Him that sitteth on the throne" is God the Father as indicated in chapter 4, thus it is clearly God's wrath. It is also the Lamb's wrath (Christ). The passage clearly says "the great day of his wrath is come," meaning that all six of the seal judgments are classified as God's wrath.


Van Kampen attempts to say that the events of the seal judgments are not really "God's" wrath, but the wrath of man. Rosenthal declares, "The word wrath occurs eight times in the book of Revelation. All eight occurrences follow the opening of the sixth seal. The word wrath is never used in connection with the first five seals" (Rosenthal, Pre-Wrath, p. 176). Rosenthal neglects to tell his readers that Revelation 6:16-17 is a summary statement of all the previous seal judgments. In spite of the Van Kampen claim to follow the plain interpretation of the text (Van Kampen, Rapture Question, p. 23-24.), I believe that Revelation 6:16-17 relates to all six seal judgments for the following reasons: First, Revelation 6:15-17 is an overall report of the human response to God's judgment as administered through all six seal judgments. A similar evaluation is recorded after the trumpet judgments in Revelation 9:20-21. This argues in favor of associating this report with the preceding seal judgments.

Second, the controlling verb in verse 17, "is come" (�lthen), "is aorist indicative, referring to a previous arrival of the wrath, not something that is about to take place" Rosenthal's attempt to say that this verb is a future aorist (Rosenthal, Pre-Wrath, pp. 166-67), cannot be supported by the context. Such contextual support is necessary to adopt his unusual use of the aorist indicative. Further, if a future look were intended by the verb then John most likely would have used the future tense. Such stress and strain in biblical interpretation demonstrates the forced notion that Van Kampen's new invention is not the product of sound biblical exegesis.

Third, Revelation 5 narrates a heavenly scene of Christ pictured as a slain, but victorious Lamb. The Lamb is pictured as worthy to open the seals on a scroll, which result in judgment-the judgment described in the succeeding chapter as the seal judgments. In chapter 6, each one of the seal judgments commences as a result of the Lamb's breaking of each seal (Revelation 6:1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 12). Since all six seal judgments begin the same way, with the breaking of the seal by the Lamb, one should not be at all surprised that Revelation 6:16-17 summarizes all six judgments as "the wrath of the Lamb," and "the great day of his wrath." This cannot be the wrath of man or Satan.

The above information provides ample biblical proof that all six seal judgments are the wrath of God (Lamb). Since all six seal judgments are designated in Scripture as God's wrath it means that the entire 70th week of Daniel is called the wrath of God in Revelation 6. Therefore, this passage does not support the Van Kampen interpretation. Since the church is promised deliverance from the wrath of God (Rom. 5:9, 1 Thess. 1:10, 5:9, and Rev. 3:10), it is clear in light of Revelation 6 that the church will be raptured before the seventieth week of Daniel.


Conclusion

The above points are just a few of the errors that can be noted about Van Kampen's theory. As he demonstrates in his writings, if one errs at this crucial point then it paves the way for faulty conclusions. It should be clear that Van Kampen must resort to strained characterizations of things like the day of the Lord, the tribulation, and the scope of God's wrath in order to first avoid pretribulationism and then to support his new rapture view. Bible believing Christians should continue to draw strength and hope from the fact that our Lord could rapture His church at any moment. We will not be left standing when our Lord moves history to the point of the commencement of the seven-year tribulation. Maranatha!

Thomas Ice
http://www.pre-trib.org/articles/view/three-quarters-rapture-theory
 

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Posted by Bloodbought (Member # 4365) on :
 
Although the pretribulation rapture doctrine is very popular and is even considered so crucial to Christianity that it is made a test of a person’s orthodoxy in some denominations, Bible colleges and seminaries, the exegetical and theological arguments used by its advocates are all classic cases of forcing one’s theological presuppositions onto particular texts (eisegesis). . . .
The teaching of a secret pretribulation rapture is a doctrine that never existed before 1830. Did the pretribulation rapture come into existence by a careful exegesis of Scripture? No. The first person to teach the doctrine was a young woman named Margaret Macdonald. Margaret was not a theologian or Bible expositor but was a prophetess in the Irvingite sect (the Catholic Apostolic Church). . . . Margaret’s views were well-known to those who visited her home, among them John Darby of the Brethren. Within a few months her distinctive prophetic outlook was mirrored in the September, 1830 issue of The Morning Watch and the early Brethren assembly at Plymouth, England. Early disciples of the pre-trib interpretation often called it a new doctrine.
John Nelson Darby (1800-1882), who was the leader of the Brethren movement and the “father of modern Dispensationalism,” took Margaret Macdonald’s new teaching on the rapture, made some changes (she taught a partial rapture of believers while he taught that all believers would be raptured) and incorporated it into his Dispensational understanding of Scripture and prophecy. Darby would spend the rest of his life speaking, writing and traveling, spreading the new rapture theory.
The Plymouth Brethren openly admitted and were even proud of the fact that among their teachings were totally new ones which had never been taught by the church fathers, medieval scholastics, Protestant Reformers or the many commentators.
The person most responsible for the rather widespread acceptance of Pretribulationalism and Dispensationalism among Evangelicals is Cyrus Ingerson Scofield (1843-1921). C. I. Scofield published his Scofield Reference Bible in 1909. This Bible, which espoused the doctrines of Darby in its notes, became very popular in Fundamentalist circles. In the minds of many a Bible teacher, fundamentalist pastor and multitudes of professing Christians, Scofield’s notes were practically equated with the word of God itself. . . .
Although the pretribulation rapture theory is very popular today . . . we must declare Pretribulationalism to be contrary to the clear teachings of Scripture. Simply put, there is not one shred of evidence that can be found in the Bible to support the pretribulation rapture. The typical Pretribulational arguments offered reveal a pattern: of imposing one’s presuppositions onto a text without any exegetical justification whatsoever; of finding subtle meaning between words and/or phrases that were never intended by the author; of spiritualizing or ignoring passages that contradict the Pretribulational paradigm; and, of imposing Pretribulationalism upon passages that actually teach the unity of the eschatological complex (i.e., the rapture, second coming, general resurrection, and general judgment all occur on the same day—the day of the Lord

http://samuelatgilgal.wordpress.com/2010/05/12/what%E2%80%99s-wrong-with-the-pretribulation-rapture-doctrine/
 

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Posted by Eduardo Grequi (Member # 3984) on :
 
To sum this up,

Here we have Christians who believe Jesus is the Christ. The Christ being the prophesied Messiah. Jesus who had shown us the way to salvation and then commanded us to go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creatures. The only known intelligent creatures are human beings. After we have taught the gospel we are to baptise them in the name of Father and in the name of Son and the name of the Holy Spirit. I summize this being the name of Jesus. Eventually everyone will bow to Him whether by willing faith or forced at the judgement. So the Apostle Paul (in the book of Thessalonians) being led by the Spirit wrote the definition of the rapture.

(1Th 4:9) But concerning brotherly love you have no need that I should write to you, for you yourselves are taught by God to love one another;

(1Th 4:10) and indeed you do so toward all the brethren who are in all Macedonia. But we urge you, brethren, that you increase more and more;

(1Th 4:11) that you also aspire to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you,

(1Th 4:12) that you may walk properly toward those who are outside, and that you may lack nothing.

(1Th 4:13) But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.

(1Th 4:14) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

(1Th 4:15) For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

(1Th 4:16) For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

(1Th 4:17) Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

(1Th 4:18) Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Do we need to cut down, eliminate, a brother or sister of something that has yet to happen because we feel obliged to capitate someones hope by pressing a point of view that after the ponderance of scripture could happened.

Look around you the birth pains are loud and clear, propogate the gospel before it is too late. What is more valuable, a lost sheep brought home to faith or a saved one having exegetical ability of a doctrine that can go either way.

The amount of energy that is put forward on this subject: ESCHATOLOGY amazes me. If you would spend that much energy in your witness of Christ to the lost as you do the saved ones in discourse -you can move mountains of filth from a rejected lost soul.

I applaud each one of you how you present the pro's and con's on the pre-trib rapture . BUT for me I believe in the blessed hope that the Church will be raptured from the thorn of Jacob before the tribulation.

If the rapture occurs before the small tribulation or the first 3 1/2 years then it is a pre-trib rapture or after the first 3 1/2 years
then it is not called a pre-trib rapture.

So lets comfort each other as the Lord wants and not knife each other to unwanting fustration.

(Jas 5:7) Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain.

(Jas 5:8) You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.

(Jas 5:9) Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door!

(Jas 5:10) My brethren, take the prophets, who spoke in the name of the Lord, as an example of suffering and patience.

(Jas 5:11) Indeed we count them blessed who endure. You have heard of the perseverance of Job and seen the end intended by the Lord—that the Lord is very compassionate and merciful.

(Jas 5:12) But above all, my brethren, do not swear, either by heaven or by earth or with any other oath. But let your "Yes" be "Yes," and your "No," "No," lest you fall into judgment.

(Jas 5:13) Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing psalms.

(Jas 5:14) Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.

(Jas 5:15) And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.

(Jas 5:16) Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.

(Jas 5:17) Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain; and it did not rain on the land for three years and six months.

(Jas 5:18) And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth produced its fruit.

(Jas 5:19) Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back,

(Jas 5:20) let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.


So come Lord Jesus!
 

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Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
Equardo,

Take assurance, my brother, false teachers cannot steal our blessed Hope. Jesus will come for His Church before the Tribulation. God's wrath is not for His Children but for the anti-Christ and those who take his mark.
God bless you.
betty
 

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Posted by Ezekiel 13:20 (Member # 8124) on :
 
I Thessalonians 4:14 Doesn't say anything about those who were raptured,just that those who sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.

But,there are some misguided folks who try to squeeze the raptured in there.
 

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Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
The Bible teaches pre trib rapture. We can rest assured that our Blessed Hope will happen.
betty
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Ezekiel 13:20:
I Thessalonians 4:14 Doesn't say anything about those who were raptured,just that those who sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.

But,there are some misguided folks who try to squeeze the raptured in there.

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No we don't. The Rapture comes a few verses later.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-18

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

Therefore comfort one another with these words.
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Ezekiel, who will populate the Millennial Kingdom?


Summary Of Problems With Post-Tribulationism

1. The Problem of Imminency

The problem for post-tribulationists is that all the Rapture passages seem to indicate an imminent Rapture, while the Second Coming is preceded by specific events. The difficulty is in reconciling these two distinct events into one single event. Post-tribs try to solve this problem by redefining imminence as merely indicating that Christ will return soon, and argue against the idea that the Rapture could occur at any moment.

It should be noted that in several instances, Paul exhorted believers on the basis of the imminency of the Lord's return without even the slightest warning of an impending great tribulation (cf. 1 Cor. 15:51-58). Every passage that clearly refers to the Rapture has this unusual feature of exhortation which is based on the imminency of the Rapture and the absence of any warning of an intervening great tribulation.

2. The Problem of the Comforting Hope

The problem here is in harmonizing the comforting hope of 1 Thessalonians 4 with a literal great tribulation. The hope of the Rapture was extended to the Thessalonian Christians as a comfort. Paul did not warn them of a coming great tribulation.

Obviously, the Thessalonians would not have experienced much 'comfort' or 'hope' if they had to go through the great tribulation before being translated. Post-tribulationists generally try to get around this by minimizing the sufferings of the saints, and somehow insulating them from the judgments of the great tribulation.

3. The Problem of the Restrainer

Post-tribs have not adequately dealt with the restrainer in 2 Thessalonians 2. They usually argue from silence by stating that Paul surely would have asserted pre-tribulationism if it were an established truth. Their logic seems to be: 'Since Paul didn't come right out and say that there would be a pre-tribulational Rapture, post-tribulationism (by the process of elimination) must be correct.' However, if the restrainer is the Holy Spirit, as pre-tribs believe, then Paul in fact did argue for a pre-trib Rapture.

4. The Problem of the Wheat and the Tares

Post-tribulationists support their view by citing Matthew 13:30, where the tares are taken up first before the wheat. However, this contradicts the post-trib sequence of events. In their view, the wicked are not dealt with finally before the Rapture. Subsequently, Matthew 13:30 does not support post-tribulationism.

5. The Problem of Intervening Events on Earth

The tribulation is a period of preparation for the Millennium. Since all believers are translated at the Rapture, this period of time is necessary to make possible a new generation of believers who will populate the Millennium in their mortal bodies.

6. The Problem of the Judgment of the Nations

The unbelievers (goats) are cast into everlasting fire by means of physical death whereas believers (sheep) enter the kingdom prepared for them - the Millennial Kingdom. The judgment of the nations is an individual judgment. It results in the purging of unbelievers out from among believers and leaves believers untouched. (Note that no one is translated or resurrected).

If there had been a post-tribulational Rapture, then believers would already be separated from unbelievers. This judgment would then be unnecessary.

7. The Problem of the "First Resurrection"

Post-tribulationists call attention to the expression "first resurrection" in Revelation 20:4-6 in support of their argument. They ask how a post-tribulational resurrection could be 'first' if a Rapture had actually taken place before the tribulation? The answer is that the resurrection mentioned in Rev. 20:4-6 actually occurs after the second coming of Christ and therefore contradicts the idea that the Rapture (in the post-tribulational view) is a part of the second coming of Christ from heaven to earth. Even a post-tribulationist would have to recognize that in his order of events, the resurrection of Rev. 20:4-6 is not 'first.'

8. The Problem of Terminology

Similar terminology is used for the Rapture and the Second Coming. Post-tribs thus conclude that these two events must be one. They use nontechnical terms like coming, appearing, and revelation in a technical way.

The answer to this is simply that the context must always be taken into consideration in determining how these words are to be interpreted. It is faulty logic to assume that a word must always be used in exactly the same way whenever it is used.

9. The Problem of the Book of Revelation

Post-tribulationists have no uniform interpretation of this book. Most post-tribs spiritualize the great judgments in Revelation 6-19. The widely conflicting and contradictory interpretations that Post-tribs hold to in regard to this book is ample testimony to their inadequate hermeneutics.

10. The Problem of Transition from the Tribulation to the Millennium

This problem has been touched on earlier. The basic problem is, How can saints go into the Millennium in their natural bodies if, in fact, they were Raptured while Christ was coming from heaven to earth? Their bodies would have already been glorified.

11. Additional Problems which are the Result of an Incorrect and Inconsistent Hermeneutic:

* Disagreement on the Millennium

Post-tribs do not agree as to whether premillennialism, postmillennialism, or amillennialism is the correct view. Thus post-tribulationism does not lend itself to a single eschatological system of interpretation.

* Disagreement on the Nature of the Judgments at the Second Coming of Christ

The main disagreement among post-tribs is in regard to the time and the order of these judgments. Gundry holds that the judgment of the nations and the judgment seat of Christ take place at the end of the Millennium. However, post-tribs usually lump the various judgments together at the Second Coming. If they are premil, they place the judgments before the Millennium.

* Disagreement as to a Specific Order of Events at the Time of the Second Coming

Post-tribulationists rarely offer a specific sequence of events in connection with the Second Coming of Christ. What little order they do give, they disagree with one another (e.g., compare classic, semiclassic, futurist, and dispensational post-tribulational interpretations).

* The Problem of Classic Post-tribulationism

The problem here is the impossibility of explaining all the predicted events leading up to the Second Coming of Christ as either past or contemporaneous.

* The Problems of Semiclassic Post-tribulationism

Those who hold to this view are not agreed as to how far to interpret prophecy literally.

Those who hold to this view have failed in attempting to affirm any reasonable sequence of events relating to the Second Coming.

* The Problems of Dispensational Post-tribulationism

Gundry regards the tribulation as a time of satanic wrath but not a time of divine wrath. However, Rev. 6:16 says it is a time of the "wrath of the lamb."

Gundry places the judgments at the end of the Millennium. The motivation for this seems to be that it is impossible to have a judgment of the sheep and the goats following the Second Coming of Christ if, as a matter of fact, the Rapture has taken place shortly before at the Second Advent itself.

* The Problem of the Distinction between the Church and Israel

Most post-tribs include in the church the saints of all ages. They must spiritualize scripture to accomplish this. They argue that since "saints" are in the great tribulation, the church must apparently go through it.

Gundry is the exception to this in that he attempts to distinguish between the church and Israel. (Cf. separate handout on Gundry).

* The Problem of Daniel

Post-tribulationism destroys the unity of Daniel's seventieth week, and also confuses Israel's program with that of the church.

* The Problem of Titus 2:13

Post-tribulationists have not adequately dealt with this passage where believers are exhorted to look for "the glorious appearing" of Christ to His own. If the Rapture follows the Tribulation, believers would then look for signs instead of His coming.

* The Problem of Purification

Believers are exhorted to purify themselves (1 Jn. 3:2, 3) in light of the fact that the Lord could appear at "any moment." It would not make sense for a believer to purify himself for the tribulation (which would be the case if post-tribulationism were correct).

* The Problem of John 14:1-3

At the Rapture, the church goes to the Father's house, and not back to earth again as post-tribulationists hold.

http://home.earthlink.net/~ronrhodes/Post-tribProblems.html
 

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Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
Our Final Victory
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
VICTORY! DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY!
 

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Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
The moment a Christian dies they are with Christ. Paul makes it clear that not all Christians will die some will be alive at the rapture and their bodies will be changed into glorified bodies and they will be taken up in the rapture.
betty
 

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Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
I give up. You are unteachable.
betty
 

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Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Betty Louise:
I give up. You are unteachable.
betty

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Carefull, the sinless saint will bury you with rocks.

I hope David drops buy soon before all thats left on the board is a sinless saint and many piles of rocks.

 

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Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by bjhulk:

quote:

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Originally posted by Betty Louise:
I give up. You are unteachable.
betty

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God is very hard to teach when you're a sinner. In fact, he's hard to teach if you're a sinless saint.

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Dude you need some serious mental adjusting.



 

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Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
You are seeing yourself. I have no fear. My faith and trust is in Jesus Christ my Lord and Savior. God has not given His children a spirit of fear.
betty
 

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Posted by BurgerGirl (Member # 8256) on :
 
Ok, I can't recall which verse it was that I saw but, I believe it stated that we will have to endure tribulation but that the days will be shortened for believers. I will try to find it and post it next time I'm here. I believe in the rapture but, according to what I've read in the KJV it will not be pre-trib.

L8R & hi Betty =o)
 

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Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
Burger Girl

Don't worry, you do not have to believe in the pre-trib rapture to be taken up in the rapture.
All Christians will be taken in the rapture.
God bless you.
betty

P.S. every Christian suffers trials and tribulation but The Tribulation is not about the Church but about God pouring out His wrath on the anti-Christ and the people who take the mark of the beast.
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
That's right, and the main focus of The Tribulation is on Israel, not the Bride of Christ.
 

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Posted by michaeldennis (Member # 8650) on :
 
Hi,

As a new member here, and as a newbie, inexperienced Christian, may I ask if the prevailing belief here on this board is in the pre-trib rapture? It is my belief in my admittedly dearth of scriptural knowledge and experience in perusing same that the pre-trib rapture is the correct view. But, in all events, I extend to one and all my friendship in Christian brotherhood.

Mike
 

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Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
Yes this board is a pre-trib board for the majority of members.
betty
 

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Posted by michaeldennis (Member # 8650) on :
 
Thank you, Betty,

I sort of felt taken unaware. I am so new to the faith and when I hear the rapture is different than I've gleaned from my limited exposure to scripture and Christian witness I am disconcerted, even more so when confronted with the idea that the rapture isn't true at all, and some, not all, of the comments about there not being a pre-trib rapture seem somewhat confrontational and intimidating. But that may be just me. Different people interpet scripture differently at times. It almost appears as a personal attack from the opposing opinion. I would also hope that those in support of the pre-trib rapture afford the same consideration to those with an opposing view. However, I realize that we as human beings, even those of us who are faithful to Christianity are most certainly not perfect and it is all too easy to become impassioned in our debate, myself no less so,and in my current state of scriptural ignorance I could come on just as strongly, in defense of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit I love, and the lesson recovered from the skirmish is the realization of our all-too human frailty and need to become more like Jesus, our Saviour.

To those who are strong in their faith, trust and obeidience, and I can't yet begin to include myself in this group, the matter of the rapture should be of relatively small import, and paramount should be to take comfort in our faith and exhibit effective witness to others, whom we are called upon to witness to. I can't claim to have thought of putting it this way myself, wish I could, but are we to fear not and get back to work in God's vinyard? Our focus is to serve, as Jesus came to serve. I realize tho we should be prepared at any moment to be in our Heavenly Home, and to attend to all stewardship with the responsibility charged to us as Bible-believing Christians.

In short, our focus should be on our stewardship of servitude, not our reward, which is what the rapture is.

I hope my post doesn't seem to issue from an 11th. hour rabble rouser, but I feel dutybound to voice whatever concern I may have, and if I'm wrong, at least this can be pointed out to me early on and that I may learn from my own mistakes. I hope I have not offended anyone who reads this post.

Mike
 

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Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
The Judgment Seat (Bema) of Christ is about Rewards....

The Time of the Bema

This event will occur immediately following the rapture of the church after it is caught up to be with the Lord in the air as described in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.


 

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Posted by michaeldennis (Member # 8650) on :
 
Yes you're right about the reward after the rapture, WildB, thank you for reclarifying that for me.

Mike
 

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Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
_I am responding to this post named (Rapture--A Dangerous DECEPTION) not to argue against anyone elses position, but to just take a no nonsense look at the implications of pre-trib or post-trib belief.

If you are born-again(alive unto God):

Whether the pre-trib is true or post-trib is true you are going to be with Jesus wherever/whenever He goes.

If you are unconverted(dead in trespasses/sin):

If you are told that you will get another chance to repent and be reconciled to God/or option to be martyed after Jesus raptures the church you may very well procrastinate, and if you find out it(pre-trib) was not true you were dangerously DECEIVED.

If you are told that you will not get another chance to be reconciled to God after Jesus returns(Post Trib), you MAY see it as logically foolish to procrastinate because you have no idea when Jesus is coming.

All in all, It doesnt really matter that much which view(Pre or Post trib) a Christian holds to. It matters which view the unbelieving procrastinor decides to trust in, knowing that his/her eternal destiny is at stake.

With love in Jesus, Daniel
 

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Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by oneinchrist:
_I am responding to this post named (Rapture--A Dangerous DECEPTION) not to argue against anyone elses position, but to just take a no nonsense look at the implications of pre-trib or post-trib belief.

If you are born-again(alive unto God):

Whether the pre-trib is true or post-trib is true you are going to be with Jesus wherever/whenever He goes.

If you are unconverted(dead in trespasses/sin):

If you are told that you will get another chance to repent and be reconciled to God/or option to be martyed after Jesus raptures the church you may very well procrastinate, and if you find out it(pre-trib) was not true you were dangerously DECEIVED.

If you are told that you will not get another chance to be reconciled to God after Jesus returns(Post Trib), you MAY see it as logically foolish to procrastinate because you have no idea when Jesus is coming.

All in all, It doesnt really matter that much which view(Pre or Post trib) a Christian holds to. It matters which view the unbelieving procrastinor decides to trust in, knowing that his/her eternal destiny is at stake.

With love in Jesus, Daniel

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Sorry Daniel , this is all your opinion and not Biblical.

ALSO

General Guidelines for PostingThe Christian BBS is run by a group of moderators who have volunteered to help with the site. In addition to the user agreement, topics or posts which do not follow these guidelines face the risk of being closed or deleted altogether.


#7 Don't bring up old threads. If you want to reply to an old thread (over 45 days), please start a new thread and reference the old thread.



 

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Posted by thefixer (Member # 8837) on :
 

 

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Posted by thefixer (Member # 8837) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by thefixer:
It's amazing how firmly entrenched each side is on the issue of Rapture. Let me state plainly that, as a servant of Jesus, it doesn't make any difference to me if I am to suffer through none, part, or all of the Tribulation. I live by the grace and will of God. If, in His wisdom, He desires me to continue doing His work on earth during that period, then IT SHALL BE DONE.
What concerns me is; what will become of those who await being raptured if the event never occurs or they are 'left behind' when others are taken? Will they be prepared to endure and withstand the assault upon their faith? Or will they succumb to accepting the 'Mark of the Beast' in exchange for a little relief.
Jesus spoke many times about being prepared for His return. It seems to me that Christians who believe in a pre-tribulation rapture are not spiritually prepared for the period of tribulation in the event that the rapture does not take place as they desire. I, for one, am prepared to go where my Master tells me to go, do what He tells me to do, say what He wants me to say, and endure whatever I must all because He Loves me, I Love Him and He asks me to.
Whenever I encounter trials and difficulties in my life and think things are going bad, I look to my Master. I see His back being cut to shreds. I see Him being mocked and people spitting in His beautiful face and throwing stones at Him. I watch as He drags His cross through town, and cringe as He stumbles under the weight. My heart cries out in anguish as I hear the hammer blows driving the spikes into His flesh. All this He did for me, so that I might be able to return Home with Him. My troubles amount to nothing in comparison.
I pray that all of you, my brothers and sisters in Christ, do not have to endure the tribulation; but do NOT be unprepared to continue on with His work, even if you pay for the privilege with your pain, suffering, and even your life for His sake.
May our Lord keep you. Your brother in Christ, LeRoy (thefixer).

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quote:

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Originally posted by Watchmen of Christ:
the story of the tares and wheat is in Matt NOT in Revelations , to change a word in the book of revelations I believe you are trying to quote that, and here's some news...even if someone did do that and they confessed and truly repented they would be forgiven. and if it comes down to that really what verse is the word rapture in? where can we find this in the Word of God?

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To change a word at all in any book,

For..

Psalms 40:7 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,

This is the word aºrpa/zw in greek.
 

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Posted by Watchmen of Christ (Member # 8941) on :
 
what verse can I find that in?
 

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Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
The New Testament Greek Lexicon

Verse Display - Strong's Number: 726
Original Word Transliterated Word
aºrpa/zw Harpazo
Translated Words
catch, catch away, catch up

The KJV Strong's Version - 1 Verse
1Th 4:17 - [In Context|Read Chapter|Original Greek]
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
 

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Posted by Watchmen of Christ (Member # 8941) on :
 
no, I mean where can I find where it says any book


# Revelation 22:18
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

# Revelation 22:19
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.


the bible was individual books not put together into one till much later and doesn't it say THIS book not these books? Are you guilty of the very thing you said I was? Hummmm
 

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Posted by Watchmen of Christ (Member # 8941) on :
 
no you did ..we WERE talking about revelations and changing the word, your trying to weasel Psalms in, ok I agree the book is written by HIM and about HIM, etc but what does that have to do with what we WERE talking about? I paraphrased Matt and you said I changed the word and was guilty of changing the word, however again that is for the book of revelations. Nice try yourself
 

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Posted by Watchmen of Christ (Member # 8941) on :
 
The end-time population will not repent of their sorceries, from the Greek word "pharmakea" from which we get the word "pharmacy". So, they will not repent of their drug abuse.


Rev. 9:21


fly away is witchcraft Eze 13
 

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Posted by Watchmen of Christ (Member # 8941) on :
 
wow looks like someone decided on spam


in EZE 13 the divination is the rapture doctrine

it's not in the bible

the verses that they you to push their witchcraft divinations don't line up


when you call them out on it they say it's a secret rapture which is against what the word says.


Christ died for all He returns for all to see not special people, HE said HE returns as lightning..has anyone seen this secret lightning?

NOPE it doesn't exist
DON'T BELIEVE THESE FALSE DIVINATIONS THAT SAY WE WON'T GO THROUGH THE TRIBULATION !!! THAT IS A LIE


CHRIST PLAINLY SAYS IN MATT 24 THAT HE COMES AFTER THE antiCHRIST and AFTER TRIBULATION


when satan shows up these fly aways will be fooled into taking his mark!

DON'T TAKE THE FLY AWAY MARK!
 

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Posted by Watchmen of Christ (Member # 8941) on :
 
A Secret Return of Christ?

these fly aways are selling satan's mark 2 for a dollar


eze 13 God calls this doctrine fake divinations


Matt 24 Christ says HE returns AFTER satan rides in and flys a few people around AFTER the tribulation...how does this chapter bust the false rapture doctrine READ IT!!!!!!!

satan comes disguised as Christ don't accept this first false Christ, do not accept the mark of satan by believing him to be Christ


first satan tries to confuse you, then he'll use verses that talks about the gathering together of the people at the same time the tares are gathered together HOW DOES THIS FIT INTO his LIE? it's the great set up DO NOT TAKE THE MARK OF satan BY BELIEVING FALSE DOCTRINE


satan says hey you won't have to go through the tribulation you'll have peace and there won't be peace see EZE 13 Christ says HE comes after satan, after the tribulation so see ..the more satan tries to argue his lie the more people can see his lie if they are of GOD. satan's children can't see the lie till to late then they'll say oh didn't we do this and that Lord and HOW SAD HE SAYS DEPART FROM ME I NEVER KNEW THEE!!! don't fly with the tares, stay with the wheat.
 

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Posted by Watchmen of Christ (Member # 8941) on :
 
BELIEVE CHRIST NOT FALSE TEACHERS
FLY AWAY= FALL AWAY

CHRIST SAYS HE COMES AFTER TRIBULATION AND antiCHRIST , the coming disguised antiChrist would be glad to fly you around to make you receive the mark of belief in your forehead/mind and to do his work mark in the hand. DON'T BE FOOLED INTO BELIEVING FALSE DOCTRINES WHICH WILL LEAD TO THE WORSHIP OF SATAN.
 

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Posted by Watchmen of Christ (Member # 8941) on :
 
the devil makes a big case and uses big pretty words to fool people into hell

he uses false doctrines and other teacher besides Christ

look at the fruit
 

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Posted by Watchmen of Christ (Member # 8941) on :
 
run out of lies yet?


where is rapture in the bible?
 

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Posted by Watchmen of Christ (Member # 8941) on :
 
where is rapture in the bible?
 

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Posted by Watchmen of Christ (Member # 8941) on :
 
where is rapture in the bible? it's not it's divination , a deceit of satan to lead people to fall away not fly away.


what verse is the rapture? not the gathering but this secret fly away for secret people ? how does it happen? think satan will fly people away on brooms or magic carpets? lol anyway still waiting on the verses.
 

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Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
Ezekiel 13:18-20 "the souls that ye hunt to make them fly"
Does this verse refute the doctrine of the rapture? No, because it's not about the rapture at all.

Those who attack the pre-tribulation rapture are so filled with blind hatred of the doctrine, that they often forget that the rapture is directly referenced in the Bible in multiple places, such as 1 Thess 4:17, and 1 Cor 15, and that the real debate is about the timing of the rapture.

But they sometimes read Ezekiel 13:18-20 in the King James, and wrongly conclude this is a condemnation of rapture teachers, who they see as being people who "hunt the souls to make them fly." And, they wrongly interpret the reference to "fly" as a reference to what they call the "fly away" doctrine of the rapture. But if we look up this verse in multiple translations, it clearly shows that the subject of Ezekiel 13:18-20 is not the rapture at all.

In Ezekiel 13:18-20, the subject appears to be fortune tellers, (women who read taro cards, gaze into crystal balls, palm reading and the like) who are prophesying strictly out of their own imagination (or reading into people's own desires) for money. These would be like those who work for the psychic hot lines today. There were these kinds of people even in King Saul's day, he "had put away those that had familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land." (1 Samuel 28:3), but ended consulting one anyway, (1 Sam 28:7), "...Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her..." The kinds of prophecy these people engaged in was a personal type of prophecy, such as "you will be rich," or "you will get married soon," that has nothing whatsoever to do with Bible Prophecy, because the subject of Bible Prophecy is not the individual, but of Jesus Christ.

Second, the magic charms or pillows on the armholes or shirt sleeves are the thing that is used to deceive and hunt people. Weird, I know, but customs were different then. I don't know of any pretrib prophecy teacher who uses extravagant magic charms or "fortune-teller type" clothing on his arm sleeves, as the means to convince people of the pretrib rapture doctrine!

Third, the phase "to make them fly" is not rendered that way in any translation listed below except for the KJV! Thus, this proves quite easily that the subject is not a "fly away" doctrine. The subject is ensnaring people. In fact, the point of the use of the words "fly away" is that the Lord will help people to escape the clutches of these fortune tellers.

KJV: Ezekiel 13:
18 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of my people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you?
19 And will ye pollute me among my people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to my people that hear your lies?
20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

NIV Ezekiel 13:20 "`Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am against your magic charms with which you ensnare people like birds and I will tear them from your arms; I will set free the people that you ensnare like birds.

NASB Ezekiel 13:20 Therefore, thus says the Lord GOD, ""Behold, I am against your magic bands by which you hunt [15] lives there as [16] birds and I will tear them from your arms; and I will let [17] them go, even those [18] lives whom you hunt as [19] birds.

RSV Ezekiel 13:20 "Wherefore thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I am against your magic bands with which you hunt the souls, and I will tear them from your arms; and I will let the souls that you hunt go free like birds.

DARBY Ezekiel 13:20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Behold, I am against your pillows, that the souls which ye catch by their means may fly away; and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, the souls that ye catch, that they may fly away.

Young's Ezekiel 13:20 Therefore, thus said the Lord Jehovah: Lo, I [am] against your pillows, With which ye are hunting there the souls of the flourishing, And I have rent them from off your arms, And have sent away the souls that ye are hunting, The souls of the flourishing.

The true irony here is that the verses actually show that the Lord wants us to fly away, to escape, to be free, like the birds!

Therefore, this is really one of the most groundless arguments floating around used to attack the rapture. Relatively few people have been so deceived as to use this completely inapplicable scripture in their collection of "no rapture" arguments. But for those who do, you can see that such authors have absolutely no respect for study, no respect for the meaning of words, and that they will use anything that sounds like it might be against the rapture to try and make their case. This goes to show the susceptibility to deception, and/or willingness to tell lies on the part of those who attack the rapture.

If you ever see anyone using this particular "no pretrib proof", you know that their scholarship and understanding of scripture needs a lot more work.

Here's one more on topic, for good measure:

Isaiah 40:31
but those who hope in the LORD will renew their strength. They will soar on wings like eagles; they will run and not grow weary, they will walk and not be faint.

Furthermore, their bad argument highlights the truth of why there are heresies in the Church!

1 Corinthians 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

[/qb][/QUOTE]Ezekiel 13:20
Wherefore thus saith the Lord God, behold, I [am] against
your pillows
Not only had an abhorrence of them, but was determined to destroy them, detect their fallacies, and expose the folly of such actions, and them to shame and contempt: wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make [them] fly;
to the places where they prophesied; into the toils and nets they spread for them, in order to catch them with their divinations and prophecies, and make a gain of them: or, "into the gardens", or "groves" F15; there to commit idolatry, ( Isaiah 65:3 ) ; and I will tear them from your arms;
by which it seems that those pillows were not only put under the arms of those that came to inquire of these female prophets or fortune tellers; but they put them under their own arms, and lay upon them as if they were asleep, and in a trance or ecstasy; and so the kerchiefs or veils were upon their heads, which covered their faces, to show that they were quite retired from the world, and wholly attentive to the visions and revelations they pretended were made them by the Lord; and which they gave out, in this superstitious way, to the credulous people that flocked about them: and will let the souls go, [even] the souls that ye hunt to make [them]
fly;
which were captivated with their superstitions; drawn into their nets and snares; decoyed into the gardens, where they were prevailed upon to sacrifice to idols, and were taken with their soothsaying and lying divinations; these the Lord promises to break the snare for them, and set them at liberty, and preserve them from that ruin and destruction they were ready to come into; see ( Psalms 124:7 ) .


[/qb][/QUOTE]Barnes' Notes on the Bible
To make them fly - If the marginal reading "into gardens" be adopted, it must mean, Ye entice men to the gardens or groves, where magical arts are practiced. That groves were used for this purpose and for idolatrous rites is notorious.

Clarke's Commentary on the Bible
The souls that ye hunt to make them fly - לפרחות lephorechoth, into the flower gardens, says Parkhurst. These false prophetesses decoyed men into these gardens, where probably some impure rites of worship were performed, as in that of אשרה Asherah or Venus. See Parkhurst under פרח.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
Wherefore thus saith the Lord God, behold, I am against your pillows,.... Not only had an abhorrence of them, but was determined to destroy them, detect their fallacies, and expose the folly of such actions, and them to shame and contempt:

wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly; to the places where they prophesied; into the toils and nets they spread for them, in order to catch them with their divinations and prophecies, and make a gain of them: or, "into the gardens", or "groves" (o); there to commit idolatry, Isaiah 65:3;

and I will tear them from your arms; by which it seems that those pillows were not only put under the arms of those that came to inquire of these female prophets or fortune tellers; but they put them under their own arms, and lay upon them as if they were asleep, and in a trance or ecstasy; and so the kerchiefs or veils were upon their heads, which covered their faces, to show that they were quite retired from the world, and wholly attentive to the visions and revelations they pretended were made them by the Lord; and which they gave out, in this superstitious way, to the credulous people that flocked about them:

and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly; which were captivated with their superstitions; drawn into their nets and snares; decoyed into the gardens, where they were prevailed upon to sacrifice to idols, and were taken with their soothsaying and lying divinations; these the Lord promises to break the snare for them, and set them at liberty, and preserve them from that ruin and destruction they were ready to come into; see Psalm 124:7.

(o) "in floralia", Junius & Tremellius, Polanus, Starckius; "in floridis hortis", Piscator.

Keil and Delitzsch Biblical Commentary on the Old Testament
Punishment of the False Prophetesses

Ezekiel 13:20. Therefore thus saith the Lord Jehovah, Behold, I will deal with your coverings with which ye catch, I will let the souls fly; and I will tear them away from your arms, and set the souls free, which ye catch, the souls to fly. Ezekiel 13:21. And I will tear your caps in pieces, and deliver my people out of your hand, and they shall no more become a prey in your hands; and ye shall learn that I am Jehovah. Ezekiel 13:22. Because ye grieve the heart of the righteous with lying, when I have not pained him; and strengthen the hands of the wicked, so that he does not turn from his evil way, to preserve his life. Ezekiel 13:23. Therefore ye shall no more see vanity, and no longer practise soothsaying: and I will deliver my people out of your hand; and ye shall learn that I am Jehovah. - The threat of judgment is closely connected with the reproof of their sins. Ezekiel 13:20 and Ezekiel 13:21 correspond to the reproof in Ezekiel 13:18, and Ezekiel 13:22 and Ezekiel 13:23 to that in Ezekiel 13:19. In the first place, the Lord will tear in pieces the coverings and caps, i.e., the tissue of lies woven by the false prophetesses, and rescue the people from their snares (Ezekiel 13:20 and Ezekiel 13:21); and, secondly, He will entirely put an end to the pernicious conduct of the persons addressed (Ezekiel 13:22 and Ezekiel 13:23). The words from אשׁר אתּנּה to לפרחות (Ezekiel 13:20), when taken as one clause, as they generally are, offer insuperable difficulties, since it is impossible to get any satisfactory meaning from שׁם, and לפרחות will not fit in. Whether we understand by kesâthōth coverings or cushions, the connection of שׁם with אשׁר (where ye catch the souls), which the majority of commentators prefer, is untenable; for coverings and cushions were not the places where the souls were caught, but could only be the means employed for catching them. Instead of שׁם we should expect בּם or בּהם; and Hitzig proposes to amend it in this way. Still less admissible is the proposal to take שׁם as referring to Jerusalem ("wherewith ye catch souls there"); as שׁם would not only contain a perfectly superfluous definition of locality, but would introduce a limitation altogether at variance with the context. It is not affirmed either of the prophets or of the prophetesses that they lived and prophesied in Jerusalem alone. In Ezekiel 13:2 and Ezekiel 13:17 reference is made in the most general terms to the prophets of Israel and the daughters of thy people; and in Ezekiel 13:16 it is simply stated that the false prophets prophesied peace to Jerusalem when there was no peace at all. Consequently we must regard the attempt to find in שׁם an allusion to Jerusalem (cf. Ezekiel 13:16) as a mere loophole, which betrays an utter inability to get any satisfactory sense for the word. Moreover, if we construe the words in this manner, לפרחות is also incomprehensible. Commentators have for the most part admitted that פּרח taht is used here in the Aramaean sense of volare, to fly. In the second half of the verse there is no doubt about its having this meaning. For שׁלּח is used in Deuteronomy 22:7 for liberating a bird, or letting it fly; and the combination שׁלּח is supported by the expression שׁלּח לחפשׁי in Exodus 21:26, while the comparison of souls to birds is sustained by Psalm 11:1 and Psalm 124:7. Hence the true meaning of the whole passage לפרחות... שׁלּחתּי את־הנּפשׁות is, I send away (set free) the souls, which ye have caught, as flying ones, i.e., so that they shall be able to fly away at liberty. And in the first half also we must not adopt a different rendering for לפרחות, since את־הנּפשׁות is also connected with it there.

But if the words in question are combined into one clause in the first hemistich, they will give us a sense which is obviously wrong, viz., "wherewith ye catch the souls to let them fly." As the impossibility of adopting this rendering has been clearly seen, the attempt has been made to cloak over the difficulty by means of paraphrases. Ewald, for example, renders לפרחות in both cases "as if they were birds of passage;" but in the first instance he applies it to birds of passage, for which nets are spread for the purpose of catching them; and in the second, to birds of passage which are set at liberty. Thus, strictly speaking, he understands the first לפרחות as signifying the catching of birds; and the second, letting them fly: an explanation which refutes itself, as pârach, to fly, cannot mean "to catch" as well. The rendering adopted by Kimchi, Rosenmller, and others, who translate לפרחות ut advolent ad vos in the first hemistich, and ut avolent in the second, is no better. And the difficulty is not removed by resorting to the dialects, as Hvernick, for the purpose of forcing upon פּרחות the meaning dissoluteness of licentiousness, for which there is no authority in the Hebrew language itself. If, therefore, it is impossible to obtain any satisfactory meaning from the existing text, it cannot be correct; and no other course is open to us than to alter the unsuitable שׁם into שׂם, and divide the words from אשׁר אתּנּה to לפרחות into two clauses, as we have done in our translation above. There is no necessity to supply anything to the relative אשׁר, as צוּד is construed with a double accusative (e.g., Micah 7:2, צוּד חרם, to catch with a net), and the object to מצדדות, viz., the souls, can easily be supplied from the next clause. שׂם, as a participle, can either be connected with הנני, "behold, I make," or taken as introducing an explanatory clause: "making the souls into flying ones," i.e., so that they are able to fly (שׁוּם ל, Genesis 12:2, etc.). The two clauses of the first hemistich would then exactly correspond to the two clauses of the second half of the verse. וקרעתּי אתם is explanatory of הנני אל כסת, I will tear off the coverings from their arms. These words do not require the assumption that the prophetesses wore the לסתות on their arms, but may be fully explained from the supposition that the persons in question prepared them with their own hands. 'ושׁלּחתּי וגו corresponds to 'שׂם את־הנּפשׁות וגו; and לפרחות is governed by שׁלּחתּי. The insertion of את־הנּפשׁים is to be accounted for from the copious nature of Ezekiel's style; at the same time, it is not merely a repetition of את־הנּפשׁות, which is separated from לפרחות by the relative clause 'אשׁר אתּם מח, but as the unusual plural form נפשׁים shows, is intended as a practical explanation of the fact, that the souls, while compared to birds, are regarded as living beings, which is the meaning borne by נפשׁ in other passages. The omission of the article after את may be explained, however, from the fact that the souls had been more precisely defined just before; just as, for example, in 1 Samuel 24:6; 2 Samuel 18:18, where the more precise definition follows immediately afterwards (cf. Ewald, 277a, p. 683). - The same thing is said in Ezekiel 13:21, with regard to the caps, as has already been said of the coverings in Ezekiel 13:20. God will tear these in pieces also, to deliver His people from the power of the lying prophetesses. In what way God will do this is explained in Ezekiel 13:22 and Ezekiel 13:23, namely, not only by putting their lying prophecies to shame through His judgment, but by putting an end to soothsaying altogether, and exterminating the false prophetesses by making them an object of ridicule and shame. The reason for this threat is given in Ezekiel 13:22, where a further description is given of the disgraceful conduct of these persons; and here the disgracefulness of their conduct is exhibited in literal terms and without any figure. They do harm to the righteous and good, and strengthen the hands of the wicked. הכאות, Hiphil of כּאה, in Syriac, to use harshly or depress; so here in the Hiphil, connected with לב, to afflict the heart. שׁקר is used adverbially: with lying, or in a lying manner; namely, by predicting misfortune and divine punishments, with which they threatened the godly, who would not acquiesce in their conduct; whereas, on the contrary, they predicted prosperity and peace to the ungodly, who were willing to be ensnared by them, and thus strengthened them in their evil ways. For this God would put them to shame through His judgments, which would make their deceptions manifest, and their soothsaying loathsome.


 

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Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Watchmen of Christ:
where is rapture in the bible?

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
This must be North Carolina again

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Ezekiel 13:20:
In his new book,Rapture a Dangerous DECEPTION.
Ret.Marine Corps Col. H. Speed Wilson exposes the origion of the False Doctrine of pre-tib rapture.
This is an excelent book for those Christians who have been beguiled by False teachers who teach the foolishness of pre-trib rapture.

ISBN# 978-1-60791-454-9
Don't be deceived by FALSE TEACHERS of the easy out,bail out doctrine!

---

I'd be glad to show you some scriptures about the Rapture.
 

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Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
Panza,

Don't bother. People who do not believe in the pre-trib rapture do not want to know the truth.
The way I see it,it is not a salvation issue and when the rapture happens they will know the truth.
Have a blessed day.
betty
 

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Posted by Eduardo Grequi (Member # 3984) on :
 
You go girl! When the rapture happens you will know it!
 

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Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Betty Louise:
Panza,

Don't bother. People who do not believe in the pre-trib rapture do not want to know the truth.
The way I see it,it is not a salvation issue and when the rapture happens they will know the truth.
Have a blessed day.
betty

---

Lol, its these fair weather , bleacher preachers, who are not in-gauged in the true war of Christ today that make such BOLD statement's.

Ezekiel 13:20 and you other fair weather , bleacher preachers, enter into Christs suffering today and stop this sillyness.

Just do it.



 

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Posted by panza70 (Member # 8113) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by WildB:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Betty Louise:
Panza,

Don't bother. People who do not believe in the pre-trib rapture do not want to know the truth.
The way I see it,it is not a salvation issue and when the rapture happens they will know the truth.
Have a blessed day.
betty

---

Lol, its these fair weather , bleacher preachers, who are not in-gauged in the true war of Christ today that make such BOLD statement's.

Ezekiel 13:20 and you other fair weather , bleacher preachers, enter into Christs suffering today and stop this sillyness.

Just do it.

[Quote] You really should read Ezk.13:17-20. It doesn't concern the Rapture...
 

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Posted by scotknight (Member # 9561) on :
 
So, the word "rapture" is not in the Bible! There's a revelation in itself! Oh, by the way, the word "Bible" is not in the Bible either. Does that mean it does not exist? What should we name that event in I Thessalonians 4:17? The word "rapture" means a catching away...exactly what Paul wrote in I Thess 4:17...
 

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Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by scotknight:
So, the word "rapture" is not in the Bible! There's a revelation in itself! Oh, by the way, the word "Bible" is not in the Bible either. Does that mean it does not exist? What should we name that event in I Thessalonians 4:17? The word "rapture" means a catching away...exactly what Paul wrote in I Thess 4:17...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by scotknight:
...but you do not have a Bible. The word is not in the book. Check the Greek word again...harpazo: to seize; catch; pull; take by force; from the word harpagmos: plunder; robbery. As Paul said in I Thess 5:2, as a "thief in the night." Caught up or caught away, in all senses of the word "harpazo," it's a leaving to be with him. If you'd like to walk, be our guest.

---

5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
 

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Posted by scotknight (Member # 9561) on :
 
...and you prove the point. Those in darkness do not understand when He comes to take His own. If He takes His own, then it is to somewhere...caught up, as He has previously said. "The light shineth in darkness, and the darkness comprehended it not" (John 1:5). There is a lot of light here. If God's people are caught up to meet Him, then what we term "rapture" has occurred. You must deny I Thess 4:17 to deny a "rapture," or catching away. Explain away as you like. It can only mean one thing.
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
You both believe in the Rapture! Me too!


"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words." (1 Thess, 4:16-18).

The word "rapture" comes from Paul's "caught up" remark in verse 17. The words "caught up" are translated from the Greek word harpazo, which means "to carry off," "snatch up," or "grasp hastily."

The translation from harpazo to "rapture" involved two steps: first, harpazo became the Latin word raptus; second, raptus became the English word "rapture."

And the Rapture will occur before the 7 year Tribulation begins.
 

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Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by scotknight:
...and you prove the point. Those in darkness do not understand when He comes to take His own. If He takes His own, then it is to somewhere...caught up, as He has previously said. "The light shineth in darkness, and the darkness comprehended it not" (John 1:5). There is a lot of light here. If God's people are caught up to meet Him, then what we term "rapture" has occurred. You must deny I Thess 4:17 to deny a "rapture," or catching away. Explain away as you like. It can only mean one thing.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Caretaker:

quote:

---

Originally posted by scotknight:
...and you prove the point. Those in darkness do not understand when He comes to take His own. If He takes His own, then it is to somewhere...caught up, as He has previously said. "The light shineth in darkness, and the darkness comprehended it not" (John 1:5). There is a lot of light here. If God's people are caught up to meet Him, then what we term "rapture" has occurred. You must deny I Thess 4:17 to deny a "rapture," or catching away. Explain away as you like. It can only mean one thing.

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Amen Bro!!!

He is coming back for us to go to the Father's House for the Wedding in Glory!!

Maranatha!!!!

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
The Book of Revelation makes it very obvious that the Tribulation and the Antichrist and his false prophet all come before Christ returns to set up His 1000 year reign.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Betty Louise:
Sorry Bob, You are way off.
First the rapture, them the tribulation, then the Second Coming, then the Millennial Kingdom.
betty

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Chaplain Bob:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Betty Louise:
Sorry Bob, You are way off.
First the rapture, them the tribulation, then the Second Coming, then the Millennial Kingdom.
betty

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Hey Betty, how about some Scripture to show me where I'm wrong?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chaplain Bob:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
The Book of Revelation makes it very obvious that the Tribulation and the Antichrist and his false prophet all come before Christ returns to set up His 1000 year reign.

---

Rev. 20:7 Now when the thousand years had expired Satan will be released from his prison 8. and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose numbers is as the sands of the sea.

---

In Revelation 19 Christ returns to destroy the antichrist's army, and He casts the antichrist and false prophet into the lake of fire.

11And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 12His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. 15From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. 16And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”


20And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone. 21And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

And in Revelation 20, Satan is bound for a thousand years and Christ sets up His 1000 year reign.

1Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.

4Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Still in Revelation 20, when the 1000 years are over, Satan is let loose and starts a war, but he is quickly defeated and cast into the lake of fire with the antichrist and false prophet.

7When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

So, Bob, the antichrist and false prophet and their army exist during the Tribulation BEFORE Christ returns. Then AFTER the 1000 year reign of Christ, Satan is let loose for a short time.
 

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Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
I think that those that don't want to believe what was revealed to Paul/saul personally from Christ out of the 3rd Heaven concerning His Body,

As it matters to Grace and why the rapture,

Only choose to because they still wan't to embrace

WORKS as the sign of redemption!

LOOK AT ME,
MY GREAT FAITH!

Will get me thru 1/2, NO
it will get me thru
ALL of the Great Tribulation.

Because Im a supper dupper saint and your not.

Thats why I AM the great
interputor of text. I have seniority too!

My Great 401 k in Heaven has much more in it than yours..

So there for what I say goes!

Right?

James has a special seat for ya up front, lol.


 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
LOL
 

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Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :
 
LOL @ Bill...

One aspect is that the post-toasties have replaced Jacob/Israel with the Church, and then misinterpret scriptures to try to put their square peg in a round hole.

The Bride of Christ, the Church is no longer present on the earth after Revelation 4 until returning with the Bride Groom following the wedding feast in Glory in Revelation 19.

The Tribulation is the Time of Jacob's Trouble, not the Bride's. By replacing Nation Israel/Jacob with the Church they want to take over all the future prophecies and deny what the Word of God truly declares as Israel/Jacob's future. It is inconvenient for their interpretation that Israel was reborn in May 1948.


 

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Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
Ecclesiastes 4:12 And if one prevail against him, two shall withstand him; and a threefold cord is not quickly broken.

 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 

 

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Posted by Chaplain Bob (Member # 5019) on :
 
So Carol, you've quoted Scripture I am very familiar with and have encouraged people to read many times. None of it proves the "Battle of Armageddon" occurs before the Millennial Kingdom. And, of course, the false profit exists before the Kingdom because Satan exists but is not revealed until after the Kingdom when Satan is "loosed".
 

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Posted by Bloodbought (Member # 4365) on :
 
There is a theory that says, get me out of here before the beast comes and I loose my sanity.
 

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Posted by Chaplain Bob (Member # 5019) on :
 
Drew, I've heard it all before. The Scriptures you quote are used constantly by those who teach the Rapture Theory (which first came to light in the mid 1800s) to "prove" it's true. The truth is those same Scripture can be used to "prove" almost any kind of "catching away" and really have nothing to do with a "rapture". The saints will be removed from this earth after the Millennial Kingdom just before God destroys this earth and creates a new one. The Disciples did not believe in a "rapture". Their question to the Lord was "When will you return?" It's possible the Believers will go through the Tribulation (which just might be occurring right now) but they will not go through the Great Tribulation which occurres after the Millennial Kingdom.
 

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Posted by Chaplain Bob (Member # 5019) on :
 
So WildB, mockery is a tool of YOUR Lord? What do you accomplish with that?
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chaplain Bob:
So Carol, you've quoted Scripture I am very familiar with and have encouraged people to read many times. None of it proves the "Battle of Armageddon" occurs before the Millennial Kingdom. And, of course, the false profit exists before the Kingdom because Satan exists but is not revealed until after the Kingdom when Satan is "loosed".

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chaplain Bob:
So WildB, mockery is a tool of YOUR Lord? What do you accomplish with that?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Carol Swenson:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chaplain Bob:
So WildB, mockery is a tool of YOUR Lord? What do you accomplish with that?

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"YOUR Lord"? As in, "my Lord is better than your Lord"?

Who's mocking now?

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Just asking what Lord he follows that allows him to mock those he disagrees with. It sure is not the Lord of the Bible.
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Lessons from a talking donkey – Numbers 22-30
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Psalms 2:4 - 6 (NASB)

4 He who sits in the heavens laughs, The Lord scoffs at them.
5 Then He will speak to them in His anger And terrify them in His fury, saying,
6 “But as for Me, I have installed My King Upon Zion, My holy mountain.”
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Psalms 37:12-13 (NASB)

12The wicked plots against the righteous
And gnashes at him with his teeth.

13The Lord laughs at him,
For He sees his day is coming.
 

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Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :
 
Bob you are accomplishing nothing in this thread and in your criticism of the pre-trib rapture. You will certainly not convince anyone as your own theory is chronologically contrary to the clear reading of scripture, which undermines any credibility for you to criticize.
 

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Posted by Chaplain Bob (Member # 5019) on :
 
I'm not trying to accomplish anything just sharing what God has revealed to me. I'm just one of a growing number who have pulled out of the rapture cult. The chronology you mention was inserted by men to attempt to make sense out of their theory (which is now only about 160 years old).
 

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Posted by Chaplain Bob (Member # 5019) on :
 
How sad Carol that you have to sink to insults as an argument.
 

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Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Caretaker:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chaplain Bob:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Betty Louise:
Sorry Bob, You are way off.
First the rapture, them the tribulation, then the Second Coming, then the Millennial Kingdom.
betty

---

Hey Betty, how about some Scripture to show me where I'm wrong?

---

Paul tells us in 1 Thessalonians 1:10 that the Church is waiting for the Lord from Heaven,
not for the Great Tribulation, because He has delivered us from the wrath to come.
1 Thessalonians 5:9 says that God has not appointed us (Christians) to wrath, but to
obtain salvation through Christ. Those who have been "born again" (John 3:3) will soon
be "caught up" to Heaven without dying. Notice what the word of God says:

2Thess. (2:1-3:5)
2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our
gathering together unto him,
2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word,
nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there
come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is
worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is
God.
2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until
he be taken out of the way.
2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit
of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and
lying wonders,
2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they
received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a
lie:
2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in
unrighteousness.
2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the
Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through
sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord
Jesus Christ.
2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught,
whether by word, or our epistle.
2:16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us,
and hath given us everlasting
consolation and good hope through grace,
2:17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.
3:1 Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and
be glorified, even as it is with you:
3:2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have
not faith.
3:3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.
3:4 And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the
things which we command you.
3:5 And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for
Christ.

In verse 2:7 we see the term "he who now letteth", this is a direct reference to the
restraining influence of the Holy Spirit, who indwells all believers.

"Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a
moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and
the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." (1 Cor. 15:51-52)

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the
archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we
which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet
the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one
another with these words." (1 Ths. 4:16-18)

It is a "comfort" for Christians to have this blessed promise. It would NOT be a comfort if
Christians had to endure the Great Tribulation. Our merciful Lord will call the Church out
of this world BEFORE the Tribulation starts. After all, the Church was never really a part
of this evil world system anyhow (Jas. 4:4; Rom. 12:2; Col. 3:2)! We're just passing
through this world to a much better place (Gal. 4:26), and we will be leaving very soon!
What about you?

This great departure of the saints is pictured on various occasions in the Bible. Just as
God took Enoch out of the world before the flood (Gen. 5:24; Heb. 11:5), He will take His
Church out of the world before the Tribulation. Just as God delivered Lot and his family
from the violent judgment upon Sodom (Gen. 19:22-24), He will deliver His saints from
the coming judgment of the Great Tribulation. Like any responsible Father, God will take
proper care of His children. He will destroy the Devil's children (Jhn. 8:44; 1 Jhn. 3:10),
but His own children are safe and secure. As Psalm 145:20 assures us, "The LORD
preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy."

This calling-out of the Church is commonly referred to as the "Rapture" because of the
quick and surprising nature in which it occurs. The world will stand in shock when millions
of Christians suddenly vanish from the face of the earth! The freeways, the
subways, the airports and streets will be in a total shambles as thousands and thousands
of drivers suddenly vanish from their seats! No doubt, millions of people will be killed
immediately.

Those remaining alive will be in shock as they search for their loved ones among all the
demolished cars and buildings. Communications will also be greatly disrupted, because
many key communications people will be caught up in the Rapture.

Opportunists will add to the confusion by looting and killing. They'll feel that during such
an emergency they can get away with anything. There will be worldwide chaos!

Authorities may attempt to explain the millions of missing people, but make no mistake
about it: GOD TOOK THEM! He promised that He would call out His people, so He will call
them out. That's all there is to it.

Many people laugh and make jokes about this Bible doctrine, but there's coming a day
when the laughing will end. Noah was a preacher of righteousness who probably received
a great deal of mocking and ridicule from the world as he built the ark upon dry ground,
but the mocking stopped when the flood waters began to rise. God was true to His word
then, and God will be true to His word today. Jesus is coming soon, and you will either be
caught up to meet Him, or you will be left behind to enter the Great Tribulation. The
choice is yours.

The Judgment Seat of Christ

Once Christians have been caught up to Heaven, we will appear before the Judgment
Seat of Christ to be judged by the Lord for our Christian service. Paul wrote about this
judgment to the Romans and to the Corinthians:

"But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for
we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ." (Rom. 14:10)

"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any
man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every
man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be
revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any
man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's
work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by
fire." (1 Cor. 3:11-15)

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive
the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."
(2 Cor. 5:10)

As these verses reveal, a Christian isn't judged to determine his eternal destiny. A
Christian's eternal destiny is established the moment he receives Jesus Christ as Savior.
The Judgment Seat of Christ is for judging the Christian's SERVICE while on this
earth. Rewards will be given to some, while others will lose rewards (2 Jhn. 8), but no
one goes to Hell at this judgment.

After the Judgment Seat of Christ, we (Christians) will wait with the Lord in Heaven until
the Great Tribulation is over on earth. We will then take part in the Marriage of the Lamb
and in the Marriage Supper of the Lamb (Rev. 19:7-9). This is when the Lord Jesus Christ
and His Bride, the Church, are officially united.

Rev. 19:8
"To her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the
fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Rev. 19:14
"And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine
linen, white and clean."

Notice the fine linen white and clean is the righteousness of saints, which are in heaven.

We will then return with the Lord to the earth, and He will destroy the wicked and
establish the Millennial Kingdom, and His saints will reign with Him on earth for one
thousand years (Rev. 20:1-7).

Zecheriah 12:10
"..and they look upon me whom they have pierced.."

Zecheriah 14:4
"And his feet shall stand that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on
the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and
toward the west.."

Zechariah 14:8,9
"And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them
toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in the summer and in
winter shall it be.
And the Lord shall be king over all the earth; in that day shall there be one Lord, and his
name one."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chaplain Bob:
How sad Carol that you have to sink to insults as an argument.

---

quote:

---

Just asking what Lord he follows that allows him to mock those he disagrees with. It sure is not the Lord of the Bible.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Carol Swenson:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chaplain Bob:
[qb] So Carol, you've quoted Scripture I am very familiar with and have encouraged people to read many times. None of it proves the "Battle of Armageddon" occurs before the Millennial Kingdom. And, of course, the false profit exists before the Kingdom because Satan exists but is not revealed until after the Kingdom when Satan is "loosed".

---

How could anyone NOT see these verses as the Battle of Armageddon?

Revelation 19:17 - 21 (NASB)

17Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, “Come, assemble for the great supper of God, 18so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great.”

19And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.

20And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone. 21And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

What do you call these verses?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chaplain Bob:
How sad Carol that you have to sink to insults as an argument.

---

The 3rd base Umpire has spoken!

OUT AT 1st!

as Jimmy Jones slides into His base, spikes in the air!

Wow!



 

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Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chaplain Bob:
Drew, I've heard it all before. The Scriptures you quote are used constantly by those who teach the Rapture Theory (which first came to light in the mid 1800s) to "prove" it's true. The truth is those same Scripture can be used to "prove" almost any kind of "catching away" and really have nothing to do with a "rapture". The saints will be removed from this earth after the Millennial Kingdom just before God destroys this earth and creates a new one. The Disciples did not believe in a "rapture". Their question to the Lord was "When will you return?" It's possible the Believers will go through the Tribulation (which just might be occurring right now) but they will not go through the Great Tribulation which occurres after the Millennial Kingdom.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Carol Swenson:

What do you call these verses?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chaplain Bob:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Carol Swenson:

What do you call these verses?

---

AFTER the Millennial Kingdom Carol.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chaplain Bob:
The chronology concerning the "Rapture theory" was inserted by man and is not in Scripture. No matter. It has no affect on one's salvation but those in the Rapture cult are in for a big surprise. When the Lord returns and you find you are still here, don't panic. He's just coming back to set up His Millennial Kingdom.

---

Your the one that has the tone of panic, lol.

Maybe it would be against your best interest to all of a sudden be changed in the twinkle of an eye?

I say if you don't have the fire fight in your life here and now, perhaps wish-en for a great tribulation to show forth your greatness would be a good way to convince others of your salvation.

No?



 

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Posted by Kindgo (Member # 2) on :
 
Bob you can disagree, but, please don't accuse us of not knowing about the other views, and, don't just blindly accept what opponents falsely say when they lie, proclaiming that we just believe in something a 19th-century Englishman said, or that we follow some woman who dabbled in the occult.

That isn't true, and you should look more deeply into the evidence upon which we base these understandings, than just to take the word of those who make such shallow and deceptive accusations.

Put this Scripture in a place you can memorize it –and make it your model truth for avoiding the pitfalls of intellectual and scriptural laziness:

“Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth” (2 Tim. 2:15).
 

---

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chaplain Bob:
The chronology concerning the "Rapture theory" was inserted by man and is not in Scripture. No matter. It has no affect on one's salvation but those in the Rapture cult are in for a big surprise. When the Lord returns and you find you are still here, don't panic. He's just coming back to set up His Millennial Kingdom.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
Where did you learn these things, if you don't mind me asking?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
In dreams or visions?

---

For the last two decades He has chosen to allow me to hear His voice. I know, I know, "The guy is out of his mind" or "How does he know it's God's voice" or "The Devil must be deceiving him". Well, while God has helped me understand the Bible better, He has given me a different interpretation of some Scripture than you may believe. And I thank Him for helping me make sense out of it.

 

---

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Is prophecy the only scripture He has talked to you about?
 

---

Posted by Chaplain Bob (Member # 5019) on :
 
No. He's talked to me about a number of verses He says have been misunderstood and caused confusion in the Body.
 

---

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
I'd like to hear some of those. But first, I'd like to be sure I have a clear understanding of your belief about prophecy.

1. The Millennial Kingdom
2. The Rapture
3. The Great Tribulation
4. Armageddon
5. Antichrist, false prophet, Satan cast into the lake of fire, and their army all destroyed
6. The New Heaven and New Earth

Do I have it right?
 

---

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chaplain Bob:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
In dreams or visions?

---

For the last two decades He has chosen to allow me to hear His voice. I know, I know, "The guy is out of his mind" or "How does he know it's God's voice" or "The Devil must be deceiving him". Well, while God has helped me understand the Bible better, He has given me a different interpretation of some Scripture than you may believe. And I thank Him for helping me make sense out of it.

---

There is only one body, one Spirit, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one interpretation.

Application is individual.

It is not Biblical to follow a voice to receive a

"Different" interpretation.

And to play the Master, hazardously steering others into the rocks, shows your true character.

It is not good to make shipwreck others faith with a false compass.


Proverbs 25:14 Whoso boasteth himself of a false gift is like clouds and wind without rain.




 

---

Posted by Chaplain Bob (Member # 5019) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by WildB:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chaplain Bob:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
In dreams or visions?

---

For the last two decades He has chosen to allow me to hear His voice. I know, I know, "The guy is out of his mind" or "How does he know it's God's voice" or "The Devil must be deceiving him". Well, while God has helped me understand the Bible better, He has given me a different interpretation of some Scripture than you may believe. And I thank Him for helping me make sense out of it.

---

There is only one body, one Spirit, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one interpretation.

Application is individual.

It is not Biblical to follow a voice to receive a

"Different" interpretation.

And to play the Master, hazardously steering others into the rocks, shows your true character.

It is not good to make shipwreck others faith with a false compass.


Proverbs 25:14 Whoso boasteth himself of a false gift is like clouds and wind without rain.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
I'd like to hear some of those. But first, I'd like to be sure I have a clear understanding of your belief about prophecy.

1. The Millennial Kingdom
2. The Rapture
3. The Great Tribulation
4. Armageddon
5. Antichrist, false prophet, Satan cast into the lake of fire, and their army all destroyed
6. The New Heaven and New Earth

Do I have it right?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chaplain Bob:

quote:

---

Originally posted by WildB:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chaplain Bob:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
In dreams or visions?

---

For the last two decades He has chosen to allow me to hear His voice. I know, I know, "The guy is out of his mind" or "How does he know it's God's voice" or "The Devil must be deceiving him". Well, while God has helped me understand the Bible better, He has given me a different interpretation of some Scripture than you may believe. And I thank Him for helping me make sense out of it.

---

There is only one body, one Spirit, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one interpretation.

Application is individual.

It is not Biblical to follow a voice to receive a

"Different" interpretation.

And to play the Master, hazardously steering others into the rocks, shows your true character.

It is not good to make shipwreck others faith with a false compass.


Proverbs 25:14 Whoso boasteth himself of a false gift is like clouds and wind without rain.

---

In other words if someone does not believe exactly as you do then they are not saved, right? Why are you so bitter and cynical Bill? There is no place the Bible says "God inspired the Bible then shut His mouth". Besides, what we are discussing here has nothing to do with a person's salvation (like most subjects people bicker about on Christian forums).

---

I only believe the Word of God KJV as enlightened by the Spirit, not some voice in my head.

I challenged you now concerning the spirit you are following and encouraging others to do so as well.

Nothing bitter about that!

1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1 John 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.



 

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Posted by Kindgo (Member # 2) on :
 
Bob, where do you fit Israel into all this?
 

---

Posted by Chaplain Bob (Member # 5019) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by WildB:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chaplain Bob:

quote:

---

Originally posted by WildB:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chaplain Bob:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
In dreams or visions?

---

For the last two decades He has chosen to allow me to hear His voice. I know, I know, "The guy is out of his mind" or "How does he know it's God's voice" or "The Devil must be deceiving him". Well, while God has helped me understand the Bible better, He has given me a different interpretation of some Scripture than you may believe. And I thank Him for helping me make sense out of it.

---

There is only one body, one Spirit, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one interpretation.

Application is individual.

It is not Biblical to follow a voice to receive a

"Different" interpretation.

And to play the Master, hazardously steering others into the rocks, shows your true character.

It is not good to make shipwreck others faith with a false compass.


Proverbs 25:14 Whoso boasteth himself of a false gift is like clouds and wind without rain.

---

In other words if someone does not believe exactly as you do then they are not saved, right? Why are you so bitter and cynical Bill? There is no place the Bible says "God inspired the Bible then shut His mouth". Besides, what we are discussing here has nothing to do with a person's salvation (like most subjects people bicker about on Christian forums).

---

I only believe the Word of God KJV as enlightened by the Spirit, not some voice in my head.

I challenged you now concerning the spirit you are following and encouraging others to do so as well.

Nothing bitter about that!

1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1 John 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chaplain Bob:

quote:

---

Originally posted by WildB:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chaplain Bob:

quote:

---

Originally posted by WildB:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chaplain Bob:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
In dreams or visions?

---

For the last two decades He has chosen to allow me to hear His voice. I know, I know, "The guy is out of his mind" or "How does he know it's God's voice" or "The Devil must be deceiving him". Well, while God has helped me understand the Bible better, He has given me a different interpretation of some Scripture than you may believe. And I thank Him for helping me make sense out of it.

---

There is only one body, one Spirit, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one interpretation.

Application is individual.

It is not Biblical to follow a voice to receive a

"Different" interpretation.

And to play the Master, hazardously steering others into the rocks, shows your true character.

It is not good to make shipwreck others faith with a false compass.


Proverbs 25:14 Whoso boasteth himself of a false gift is like clouds and wind without rain.

---

In other words if someone does not believe exactly as you do then they are not saved, right? Why are you so bitter and cynical Bill? There is no place the Bible says "God inspired the Bible then shut His mouth". Besides, what we are discussing here has nothing to do with a person's salvation (like most subjects people bicker about on Christian forums).

---

I only believe the Word of God KJV as enlightened by the Spirit, not some voice in my head.

I challenged you now concerning the spirit you are following and encouraging others to do so as well.

Nothing bitter about that!

1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1 John 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

---

I've already told you it's not my job to convince you of anything. But neither is it you job to tell me I do not hear from God. Besides, the "Rapture theory" is not something that came from God in the first place. If I ever gave you a Gospel that was different from what the Bible says in John 3:16 then you should be suspicious.

---

Interesting,

prey tell

What is your yob?


 

---

Posted by Chaplain Bob (Member # 5019) on :
 
To be a living witness for Him. "Go into all the world and preach the Gospel.....".
 

---

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chaplain Bob:
To be a living witness for Him. "Go into all the world and preach the Gospel.....".

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
You believe the Millennial Kingdom comes first, so the Great Tribulation is at least 1000 years away.

I like Sherwood Films too. I think my favorite is Facing The Giants.

---

That's the way I understand what He told me. So we could be at the Kingdom'e doorstep (although no one really knows). "Facing The Giants" is my favorite too. Although it was panned by some Believers who said "God doesn't care who wins football games." They apparently missed the message "Do your very best and leave the rest up to God." What I loved about that film was the way they got the Gospel out without slapping you with the Bible.
 

---

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
At one point in the film they said that God may not care about football, but He cares about the faith of those players, and the coach. He rewarded their faith, and they gave Him the glory.
 

---

Posted by Chaplain Bob (Member # 5019) on :
 
CAROL: Here are some of the verses you asked about. I believe God has shown me the true meaning of these verses over the last two decades. Verses where Jesus says “…no one comes to the Father except by me” like John 14:6 means “I am the only one who has provided a way for man to come to God” not “you must believe in me to be saved”. When the Bible says “…call on the name of Jesus” or “…there is no other name under Heaven given among men by which we must be saved as in Acts 4:12 it is not saying it is the name of Jesus that saves as has been misinterpreted by many but it is saying “turn to Jesus (because of what He has done)”. It is Jesus’ sacrifice that makes possible man’s salvation not His name as some teach which has led to confusion and the question “what about those who never hear the Name of Jesus?” I struggled for decades over that question until one day God gave me the answer. He showed me Romans 1:19,20 and said mankind knows He is and anyone who refuses to turn to Him will be lost. He also told me that in John 3:16 where it says …”believes in Him…” should be understood “…believes in God…” as evidence that He has provided a way for those who never hear the name of His son to be saved. One of the most frustrating things in America today is the number of times we Believers are stopped by a court from praying publically in Jesus’ name. When Jesus said “…whatever you ask in my name….” He did not mean literally “tack my name on the end of your prayers”. What He was saying is “Whatever you ask the Father by my authority.” In other words He gave us the His authority to approach God in prayer . The prime example of this is what we call “The Lord’s Prayer”. When the Disciples asked Jesus “How should we pray?” He said “Pray like this, Our father who is in Heaven…..” and He did not end it with “in Jesus name”. He not only told us how to pray but to whom we should pray. If you’d like to discuss (not debate) this further perhaps you should start another thread as I don’t want to hijack this one.
As far as my understanding of who is “raptured” when Jesus returns to set up His Millennial Kingdom God sent me to Psalm 37 and Revelation 20:1,2,3,7,8 (the battle of Armageddon).
 

---

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
Art Thou He That Troubleth Israel

An Open Letter to Dr. Harry A. Ironside. In answer to articles "WRONGLY DIVIDING
THE WORD". Printed in "Serving and Waiting" February and March, 1935.

Chicago, Illinois, March 15, 1935.

http://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/ohair/GRACE%20WORKS%20IN%20ADOBE/ART%20THOU%20HE%20THAT%20TROUBLETH%20ISRAEL.pdf


 

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