This is topic Healing in forum Exposing False Teaching at Christian Message Boards.


To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://thechristianbbs.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=53;t=000065

---

Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on :
 
(I did not write the below article)

WERE ALL HEALED BY their FAITH

We find in the Scriptures that Christ did not require faith for everyone, faith is not demanded as a precondition for one to receive a miracle. When faith was required it was in Jesus, not necessarily that one believes they could be healed. The faith movement says faith is a condition for our healing those who are not healed, failed because they did not have the required amount of faith for God to react.

Healings were done in numerous ways. By the person's faith, by intermediary prayer by another, and by God himself with no faith from the person present.

Healings where faith from another healed them

Matt. 8:5-10 It was the faith of the centurion that healed his own servant. If we apply this today those who have enough faith for their own healing can apply it to everyone else to be healed.

Mk.5:35-43The daughter of Jairus was healed from the fathers faith

Mk.2:5 Jesus healed the paralytic not because of his faith but of the four men who carried him.

Lk.17:11-19 Jesus healed all 10 but only one obeyed showing that he was the only one to possess true saving faith.

Jn.11 Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead certainly it wasn’t Lazarus’ faith he was dead, neither did anyone else believe it could occur then. It was done so they could believe. (also Lk8:54).

Lk.8:26-39 The demoniac of Gadarene was healed without asking before he was capable of expressing his faith.

Lk.2:50-51 Jn.18:10 When peter cut of the ear of Malchus Jesus healed him without any faith present.

The Bible records Jesus doing more miracles without anyone exercising faith then with their faith. He fed the 5,000 when they could not believe. (Lk.9:13-14 Mt.14:17) even after they had seen his provision they disbelieved again for the feeding of the 4,000 (Mt.15:33). So when so- called faith teachers tell people their healing did not come because of their faith, its false. If God depended on man for a certain faith to be healed or rescued we all would be looking to ourselves for the power instead of relying on God. This is man centered and has nothing to do with the real faith delivered to the saints once and for all (Jude 3).

Jesus performed miracles even with disbelief among the disciples. The disciples could heal a boy of epilepsy unable to cast the demon out of a boy (Mt.17:14-21) he proceeds to do this and rebukes them for their unbelief, saying they need to pray and fast to see God move. In other words you can’t just depend on the authority given to you, we need to depend on God.

In Mt.13:58 we are told "he did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith, however he did lay hands on a few sick people and healed them Mk.6:5.

Of the 35 miracles recorded in the Gospel accounts the faith of the recipient is exercise in only10 of the accounts. Healing of the lame man (Jn.5:1-9) the cleansing of a leper (Mt.8:2-4) healing a mans withered hand (Mt.9:2-8) the healing of the man born blind (Jn.9:1-7) healing the blindness of Bartemaeus (Mt.20:29-34) The women who had a blood flow (Mt.9:20-22; Mk.5:24-34) Peter who walked on water to Jesus (Mt.14:24-33) the miraculous catching of the fish (Lk.5:1-11) and the second miraculous catch (Jn.21:1-11) The cleansing of the 10 lepers of which only one had faith (Lk.17:11-19)

Jesus did not heal everyone always either Jn.5:1-15 v.3 Multitudes were gathered at the pool of Bethsaida, but Jesus picked only one to be healed a blind and lame man and disregarded the rest. V.3.The blind man acted on Christ's invitation, having no faith. He didn't know it was Jesus who healed him until later v.12-13.How many times did Jesus go past the gate of the temple and not heal anyone? Why doesn't he heal everyone all the time? Why did he those who had faith and picked others who had no faith? Those involved in faith healing will have no answer for this, at least one that would be biblical.

Writing an article like this always puts someone at risk of being misunderstood. So many people believe if criticize healing in any manner you don't believe in it. I do believe in healing, and I certainly want to be believing it the way the bible presents it, and not the way the healing crusade movement teaches.

True supernatural healings do not always require faith they are bestowed in mercy by the providence of God, neither do they require a laying on of hands to transfer the anointing from one person to another for it to occur. The healings that are from God are always 100% successful, without any relapses, and are almost always immediate. False and psychological healings require physical contact, they can have relapses, and do not heal organic disorders and are not usually immediate. Benny Hinn claims you must keep your faith for your healing or the devil will come and steal it. Nowhere are God's healings spoken of this way. Real miracles are under God's control without the use of man, false miracles always come by mans hands, and are done by their own dictates.

2 Kings 13:14-20 Elisha died from a sickness even though he had a double portion. 1 Tim.5:23 Paul had Timothy to take wine for medicinal purposes. He didn’t tell him to just believe and have more faith. There is no teaching like this found in the Scripture.

2 Tim.4:20 ‘Trophemus I left in Miletus sick". Trophemus was a companion of Paul and Paul left him as he went on. He did not lay hands on him, for whatever reason he was left behind to recuperate, nor did he encourage him to have faith to be healed. Neither did he send an anointed handkerchief.

Phil.2:26,30 Epaphroditus was a devoted servant of the Lord yet he became sick. He got sick in Rome and stayed that way for some time and almost died. We see that prayers were not answered immediately until it was Gods will in his timing, it was not Gods will to heal him at first. No one came to lay hands on him or send him an anointed handkerchief nor was he rebuked for any lack of faith. God had mercy on him. We are no different in needing that mercy.

Acts 5:15 "They brought the sick out into the streets and laid them on beds and couches, that at least the shadow of Peter passing by might fall (overshadow them) on some of them." But he never made it a ministry nor do we hear of this becoming a practice by the Apostles. And he did not charge a fee for this either. It wouldn’t surprise me if we see this being revived and promoted today. Once again this involves an apostle and he’s there present with them . It has to do with his presence as an apostle. What causes a shadow to come over another person? The shadow was cast by Peter leaning over them. It does not say they were healed by his shadow, they were wanting him to come near.

Rom.8:15 We live in a fallen world until the time of restoration. What the faith teachers are doing is not dividing the word correctly. They are applying millennial blessings to us now, they think by faith we can obtain everything scripture says. That all the promises of God are yea and amen. This is true but they are not always for every believer and there is Gods timing in it as well. Why claim only a physical healing with your faith? There is the scriptural promise of a new body so that we will never die. They should go all the way with their faith and claim this as well. But this is not rational to do. Because as we can see there is a timing, it is dependent on God to make this happen. No amount of faith will bring the desired result of our escaping death.

Don't think you are being neglected by the Holy Spirit if you believed and didn't get healed. Don't assume that the Lord is against you. Don't conclude that you have an absence of faith or secret sin. You just might have Gods glory resting on you for a special purpose.

Take a good look at 1 Peter 2:21: "Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps." Circle the word example in this verse. Here we are told that Jesus suffered, and He left us an example. We are to follow in His steps not by wanting suffering, but when it comes be able to bear under it.

And what is the meaning of Philippians 3:10, which refers to "the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings"? Let us be clear on this: suffering is an integral part of the fact of life, and is often used by God in the development and maturing of the Christian in faith. In the first few centuries many were tortured and killed for their faith, even today almost 160,000 Christians (that we know of, probably more like 250,000) throughout the world are killed for not renouncing their faith. To the faith movement this would be considered not walking in Gods fullness since no one should be sick or die without living out a full life in years. Lets not forget the apostles all died prematurely, except one. Heb.11 proves that those who God uses to change history are almost always killed or suffer.

The apostle Paul had a greater standing with the Lord in terms of his ministry than you or I have or anybody else has ever had. According to 2 Corinthians 12:1-10 Paul requested healing from the Lord three times. "And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure (boasting). Paul was not boasting, but it was to keep him from elevating himself since he was someone God was going to use as no other. Faith teachers are stupefied on this because he can’t just speak it away, he ends up pleading with the Lord and receives an answer that essentially says God's will determine Paul's afflictions. God said no to Paul's request for healing because God had a purpose in saying no. So there was no positive confession to release the force of faith.

"Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me. And He said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness." God's power was exhibited in Paul’s life because of his affliction. His weakness was a physical handicap. Gods answer was his grace, this is the very opposite of the faith teaching which says because they are whole and strong physically, God's power is there. Paul goes on " Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. "Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ's sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong." Did Paul have a lack of faith? No! Was Paul suffering from some secret sin that he was carrying around? No! Do you see how the faith movement actually undermines faith in the absolute authority of Scripture and transfers it to be a power in a human being whose own commands becomes the criteria? He was strong because of his dependency on God, it is not self-focused but a God focus. This is what true faith is, not trusting in ones faith or commanding or decreeing. But having patience, waiting on God and renewing your strength as you wait for the promise to come.

John MacArthur in his book "The Charismatics" says" We live in a world where God has not chosen to eliminate sin totally from his permissive will of the believer, why should we assume that suffering is excluded? If every Christian were well and healthy, if perfect health were a guarantee benefit of the atonement, millions of people would be stampeding to get saved-but for the wrong reason." God uses many things to get unbelievers attention but the most detrimental thing to preach is to come to God because he’s the great fixer upper, he’ll heal you, make you well, fix your marriage give you a successful job, and make you look good to boot! While he can do any one of these, except for changing how we look, this is not the reason we should come to God. We come to him because of who he is and how he showed his love for us by sending his son to die, He is the giver of our lives and deserves our worship, simply for who he is, and not for what he will do for us. If we can focus on him and his beauty, we may not become self focused and vain.
 

---

Posted by Gramajo320 (Member # 4667) on :
 
Soft Touch,

Thank you very much for your excellent posting and the excellent article! God Bless you so much!
 

---

Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on :
 
this is a good article, SoftTouch, I read part of it but will read more of it tomorrow at work. thanks for posting it.

God bless, BORN AGAIN
 

---

Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on :
 
But one thing I'd like to say about this whole Exposing ... forum, is "don't forget to add mercy to all your responses.

Because, for one thing, some are an ear, another is a leg in the Body of God, and we all learn different parts of the Bible, depending somewhat on our "natural propsensity" ("oh, I like this and this"), and so this author, for instance, has learned this "faith healing" thing really well.

In one place the author says that if a person teaches that faith is needed to healed, that "that is false". Yes it is "false", but please remember to "add some mercy to that" because "not everyone is as knowledgeable about every part and topic of the Bible as every other part or topic of the Bible".

There are many topics in the Bible, and some people know theire Bibles real well. And then, it is one thing to know the Bible real well onself, teaching it is another matter because now one is dealing with the opinions and level of knowledge and understanding of a second person, and so on.

My point, even though I see that faith is not needed to be healed, if WOF has drifted off into that, let's remember to have mercy for all the other good things the WOF movement has done for the Lord.

Tens of thousands of come to believe in Christ through the Charistmatic tongue-speakers, for instance, even though eventually I think this kind of "tongue-speaking" will be discredited as being "not of God" (but that's another story).

"go and learn what this means, I will have mercy and not sacrifice" and "you would not have condemned the guiltless" (for one thing, they still are the LORD's anointed, as HisGrace said) and even Michael durst not rebuke Lucifer-Satan (or something like that).

Remember to also say, "I will have mercy", for whoever extends mercy, the same shall be shown mercy. "for with what measure you mete, the same (the same, He said) it shall be measured back to you", probably now and when He comes in the last day.

Anyways, may the LORD God of Israel bless us, BORN AGAIN
 

---

Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
Mercy, yes I agree with. But far too many times, people who are handiapped are not extended mercy, only contemnation. A Christian would not kick a lame dog but has no problem kicking a handicapped Christian. God has shown me ways that He uses my handicapped to inspire others to work for Him. Should I be hated because God is working in me, through a handicap? OF course Christians would not say that they hate me, but they would say:
people who are not heal are:
1. not really saved.
2. faithless
3. too lazy to get off the couch and work for God unless God struck them with a handicap.
Is this mercy? I got saved at 7 had my first issue with this disease at 38. I have seen God heal my marraige after a 3 year seperation. I have known God's healing in my own life when it was said I was dead before I was born. lastly, I have been working for God since my teens and yet I still got sick at 38.

Yes, I agree lets show some mercy. But how about some mercy for those who suffer daily from pain.
Not just me, but those who's suffering far exceeds mine. No I do NOT want pity. I admit there are days when the pain is very bad and I have more trouble walking that I feel sorry for myself, but this is not the normal me. My husband could write a page on my faults, but he would tell you that feeling sorry for myself is not one of my faults. Mercy and pity are not the same.
betty
 

---

Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on :
 
BA, I have the gift of Mercy (Thank the Lord!) but I think you're confusing Mercy with Tolerance... I have NO Tolerance for those who teach falsely. I have personally met several people who have come out of the WOF False Teaching who were Severely Spiritually Wounded and it broke my heart to hear some of the horrible things that were said to these dear children of God by those 'Super-Apostles' (as Paul would have called them).

As Linda said on another thread here, one can not preach the Gospel and NOT preach Against Heresy. WOF is FULL of Heresy and they deceive and spiritually cripple many precious souls. I can Not and will Not sit silently by and just watch.
 

---

Posted by Carmela (Member # 4817) on :
 
I would like to add a personal testimony here if I may.

I have a friend that has cancer so bad that she now only weights 106 pounds and often can't even get off the bed. Her husband has to carry her from the couch to the bed sometimes. She had a lump in her side that was the size of a football and caused her much pain. On her good days she can go for a very short walk and maybe eat a bite or two that stays down.

I have been praying for her, and God recently showed me something. He showed me that often when we pray for someone, we have little faith because we pray but since often our prayers don't appear to be answered when we ask for healing for someone, we pray expecting a bad outcome usually. Then, I was reminded of the woman in the bible that wouldn't give up asking for what she wanted until she wore the person out. So, I realized that I had to change the way I was praying and the way I was thinking. Instead, I started realizing that if God heals her, then it's great but if he doesn't, it's probably because he has other plans and it isn't for me to worry or cause doubt to rise up in me over this.

So, I started saying Lord, I'm going to come knocking throughout the day, every day, and pray for this healing and I won't stop until either you take her, or she is healed. but I asked God if he heals her to give her a dream or vision so she knows about it. Of course, she would know anyway.

Well, this week all of us that have been praying for this woman got an email. She was sleeping on the couch and she had a dream that God came and touched her side and the lump was removed. She woke up, and this HUGE lump was gone and much of her pain has decreased. I'm still praying because there is more healing that needs to take place since she still has some pain but she is able to eat a little better now and I believe that God will finish the work he started because he never does things half way.

Just my praise report to God for being so awesome!!
 

---

Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on :
 
Dear Carmela,

Thank you for this testimony. God stands by His Word. Nothing is impossible for God.

I will pray for your friend's complete healing and stand with you in faith.
 

---

Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on :
 
OK Now I've read Softtouch's "article".

It reminds me of when I was studying the Creation/Evolution debate. I would read articles by Sociologists that always used assumptions and theories, but never hard facts to prove Evolution.

The hard facts even from Softtouch's article is that it took Faith of someone, even if it wasn't the person receiving the healing or resurrection.

Even the one story about the demon that couldn't be cast out due to unbelief of the disciples and the boy's father. The boy's father did come to Jesus and said; "Lord I believe, help mine unbelief." Then Jesus cast it out. One needs to keep the whole story in context.

We are to build each other up in the faith.

Why is there such a hardness of heart by many here?

Is your faith good enough? Is your faith finished?

I know for myself I seek to have more of Jesus to increase my Faith.
 

---

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
To bad WhiteEagle and her people wern't arround to Keep Dr. Adrian Rogers from a cancer related death.Which took a few painfull years to finaly return him to the dust by.

Adrian Rogers pastored for 33 years. I distinctly remember the feeling of standing with a giant in the faith, whose voice I had listened to for years, as I stood with Dr. Rodgers and two other champions of the faith, Dr. James Dobson and Chuck Colson. In the months following that event I had the opportunity to spend some time with Dr. Rodgers, and the only way I can describe him is as a gentle giant. His thundering voice captivated millions as he stood uncompromisingly for the truth and led untold numbers to the cross of Jesus Christ.

Yet I've watched him as he took the time to express genuine interest in those he did not know as they shared with him matter of importance to them. He was one that made you feel good to be in his presence. I always found him positive, affirming and full of joy.

There is no doubt that the joy of the Lord was his strength, and as a result of his life we are all stronger in our faith.

http://thechristianbbs.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=13;t=000833
 

---

Posted by hardcore (Member # 4492) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by WildB:
To bad WhiteEagle and her people wern't arround to Keep Dr. Adrian Rogers from a cancer related death.Which took a few painfull years to finaly return him to the dust by.

Adrian Rogers pastored for 33 years. I distinctly remember the feeling of standing with a giant in the faith, whose voice I had listened to for years, as I stood with Dr. Rodgers and two other champions of the faith, Dr. James Dobson and Chuck Colson. In the months following that event I had the opportunity to spend some time with Dr. Rodgers, and the only way I can describe him is as a gentle giant. His thundering voice captivated millions as he stood uncompromisingly for the truth and led untold numbers to the cross of Jesus Christ.

Yet I've watched him as he took the time to express genuine interest in those he did not know as they shared with him matter of importance to them. He was one that made you feel good to be in his presence. I always found him positive, affirming and full of joy.

There is no doubt that the joy of the Lord was his strength, and as a result of his life we are all stronger in our faith.

http://thechristianbbs.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=13;t=000833

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by hardcore:

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by hardcore:

Adrian Rogers will be greatly missed, but what a blessing it must have been for him to hear "well done, my good and faithful servant".

How some can't see the difference between a preacher such as Rogers and certain others who are continually defended, is beyond me.

How do you watch Adrian Rogers or Charles Stanley for instance, and then continue to watch the Copelands (among others). I just don't get it.

---

quote:

---

WhiteEagle:
Perhaps because some of us don't follow other men or women. We follow Christ.

We are not to glorify men, we are to glorify Christ.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
WhiteEagle:
Perhaps because some of us don't follow other men or women. We follow Christ.
----------------

Jesus had compassion. I do not see compassion in your post. I see only self pride in that you consider your good health to be a reflection of your spiritual life. I know people who are not saved who are in excellent health. I don't see good health as a reflection of spiritual health. Some of the most spiritual people I have known where handicapped. You do follow men. You are so wrapped up in WOF that you can't see the truth.
betty

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
I have never stated I was more spiritual than anybody else.

I have only attempted to shead light on what the Bible does say about healing.

---

No~What you continue to do is forward your opinion on what the Bible says about healing and it is far from enlightening.
 

---

Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
I started having my first issues with this disease at 38. From this time to this day, I have gone through many transitions. But, at this point God has given me peace that though the road He has chosen for me, was not the path I would have chosen, He is walking with me daily. What I do not need is people filling my head with doubts about my own spiritual life, by judging me not on my spiritual life but my disability. This is not only hurtful to me but to others who come here and lurk that are diabled also. Judging someone by their disablitities is just as much a racist as juding someone on their skin color.
I feel pity for White Eagle because she has got so caught up in the WOF that she has lost the ability to feel compassion on those who suffer. Her being a nurse makes it more concerning. When I worked with nurses, I ran accross a couple like her, who look down on others and were very judgmental. I found their type very sad.
betty
 

---

Posted by Carmela (Member # 4817) on :
 
I guess I missed something because I didn't see where WhiteEagle put anyone down. I may be wrong, but I believe what she may be saying, I'm not trying to speak for her here, is showing that there is hope for healing because the bible tells us that and we need to stand on that hope.

TG, I'm sorry you have a disease and I will pray for you. However, I would like to remind you of something. Job was sick as you know and his friend's came up with many reasons why Job may have been afflicted. They kept saying that Job must has sin in his life in order to be as sick as he was and Job kept insisting that he didn't. They argued that point with Job.

During these conversations with Job and his friends, you can see that God was there with Job and listening even though He wasn't responding to Job at that moment. How do we know this? Because when God does finally speak to Job, He starts paraphrasing the conversations that they were having. So, we know God didn't leave him even though Job and his friends thought God left him.

God himself told Satan:
Job 1:8
8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
(KJV)

So we know right in the beginning of the story that Job was a good man and pleasing to the Lord.

I tell you this because no matter what anyone says, you can know that God knows what is wrong with you and why. God has never left you and no matter what others say, God knows exactly where you are and why He allowed you to be where you are.

If I can be of any encouragement to you, I would say to keep your focus on what God says, not what people say. Job could have been talked into disobeying and turning from God by his wife and by his friend's, but he choose to continue trusting God and believing in his word. He passed the test and I believe that God allowed him to be tested by Satan because God know Job would pass the test. Imagine how Satan must have felt when he failed? I sure wish I could have seen Satan's face when Job continued to honor God in the midst of all Satan threw at him.
 

---

Posted by Carmela (Member # 4817) on :
 
This is the testimony that I was telling you about. It's all exactly as I found it in her post and she did say I can share it. I gave her this forum link, so maybe she will even stop in, I don't know.


Testimony from a severe ill human.....

Hi,
I was raised as a Christian and was baptised in the Reformed church. When I was about 12 years old, I had enough of the obligation to go to church every Sunday, so I quit. When I was about 20, I
returned back to the church and I even confessed. Then I became more ill all the time and I, and I am ashamed to say this, started to blame God for not healing me. It was a stupid thing to do, but in that time I met Albert, my husband, and he was mentally abusing me and somehow pushed me in that direction, and me being very labile let him convince me that God didn't care about me. I went to church in that time just to the Christmas Service, Albert even joined me once but everytime my faith became a little stronger, Albert managed to make it disappear again...
Until five years ago... I was so disabled and so tired and my life had become one of a bedridden person, and in pain so deeply that I just could not take it anymore that I decided to write a letter to God, to see if He still wanted me and to till Him exactly how I felt, and I wanted to demand an answer from Him why He did not cure me.... I started to write that
letter, and it took me 3 months and then I just was able to put 3 lines on the paper and I didn't seem to find the right words to be angry with God, somewhere deep down I still loved Him very much and I couldn't manage to write something to Him that would hurt Him to read... But I still was not coping very well and one night I was in huge pains again and I just
couldn't bear them anymore and I cried out to God, that I would do anything for Him, if He only would show me He was still there and if He could ease my pain, I would gladly dedicate my life to Him and make Him the center of my life.... God answered this time, by the way He is answering me right now, and that is to spread warmth over my body, and I felt so loved, like I came Home again.... I cried and humbly repented to God for letting Him down for so long and laying my body, spirit and mind before Him, asking Him to please take them and I asked Him to either let me die or to guide me through this agony. Because of the warmth and the feeling of safety, I was able to sleep a whole night long, which was a heavy problem before, and in that night God gave me a dream. It was nothing special, at least that is what I thought when I woke up, I am a big fan of Victor, a Dutch actor, and I dreamt I met him on some tropical
island, I suspect it was Greek or something like that, and we went out for dinner. It was one of the first times I saw myself in my dreams in my wheelchair (since then I never dreamt I could walk again) and after dinner we went to a hotel, but Victor had forgotten it had a stairway in it, so it was quite a joking thing to get up there to find a room without a bed, just a mattress on the floor... and he helped me to undress and we fell asleep. The minute I woke up I remembered every little detail of this dream, like the curtains in the restaurant, and I thought that was very weird, so I decided to write it down in my computer. The minute I was finished I thought: Hey this is strange, I know how the dream goes on, and I started to type it down... Well, the dream became a book and in that book God has answered me to all the questions that I had, in thoughts and
in dreams and writing the book I realised that He never abandoned me, I turned my back on Him.... He was just waiting there all the time with His arms wide open to welcome me back again. He explained He couldn't cure me, but He could ease my pain a little bit and be there for me whenever I needed Him, in very many ways.... if I had to go through a painful treatment I felt someone touching my hand, if I couldn't stop crying I felt comforted, and more things like that. But, after all I am still human, the time came that I had enough from a life on my bed, and I couldn't stand the pains anymore, so I talked to my husband about it, and we agreed we would slowly and carefully explore the ways of the possibility of euthanasia. It appeared not to be possible, so we decided that it would be best if I committed suicide, but I wanted to arrange everything legally, so Albert would not get into trouble the minute I took my own life. We agreed to take all the time we needed to arrange everything and I planned my suicide at the end of January. There was just one thing left for me to do. I called my minister and asked him if he could make it possible for me to attend the Christmas Service for me, and he gladly arranged everything, we are very close and he understood me perfectly. I went to church, it took me 3 weeks to recover from it, and in the silent prayer I asked God if He granted me permission to enter His Heaven and if He didn't I prayed He would give me a sign. Without a sign I would perform my suicide. I went Home, enlightened somehow for being in a
church again after 8 years, and we celebrated Christmas as our last one together. I was a week or two before that connected to the internet and I found a lovely page, called beliefnet.com, and I posted a message there about how I felt about God.... There answered a woman, called Euchea, and we started a conversation with the two of us. I was intriged by her answers and at one point she said: "I love you, my beautiful sister, as if we had the same blood running through our veins." I was astonished by this statement and at first I didn't react anymore, for it sounded very weird to me, but God pushed me to answer her anyway, and I thought by myself that it was fair to tell her about my plans, so when she told me she felt like I was dying in one life and entering another, I told her the truth.... In my prayers I asked God to relieve me from my pains, even if it was for a week or so, and He answered by giving me another dream, saying that if I would cure, He'd become another part of my life again and He wanted to stay in the centre of my life. I told Him that would never happen in a lifetime.... Well, my friend and I grew very close in a week time and I believed she was the answer to the question if I should stay alive and I let her lead me... She put me on a diet, learned me how to pray better, to meditate and to grow closer and closer to God. I loved her as well by that time and the words she said to me I thought of as being weird, were repeated by me towards her... for I did love her and I still do. A few weeks after we met, the miracle did happen. My pains diminished and I was alive again, filled with energy and so happy about it, enjoying life in so many ways, making plans for the first time in my life and I was totally out of my depressive feelings... The fact is, of course, that God was right, He became another part of my life. He was gently enough to let my pains return to my body slowly, and then I realised what I had been doing.... I wrote a prayer of confession to God, and I felt very guilty... and made Him the center of my life again. God has taught me a lesson, and I learned from it all that I don´t have to fear anything anymore, I laid my life in the Hands of God again, and I can feel His intervention in my life almost daily. Everytime I want to give in, God sends a message to me, by a friend, by phone, by mail.... I now know that God can work miracles, but I also realise that every bad thing this body has given me, is compensated largely by my relationship with God. And right now I realise that I can live with pain and disability, but I can´t live without God anymore. I try to keep in mind that my suffering is nothing compared to what the Lord Jesus went through and after all I have been through and seeing how beautiful God intervenes in my life, I owe it to Him to carry my cross with dignity and pride. God gave me another dream in which I met Jesus, and I cried a lot when I saw Him first in the garden of Getsemane, praying his heart out before He is arrested, and later on I walked along the hill where He was crucified and I couldn't stop crying
because I love Jesus a lot and to see Him hanging there, broke my heart....
I asked God that if I had to stay alive, then please give me a purpose, to use me anyway He wanted to. And, God is using me, by letting me help so many friends and strangers over the internet. When I answer them it is like God is telling me what to write to them....
I am learning slowly to accept the pain and go the direction my Father wants me to go, and I meet the most beautiful friends on my way that make the burden a little easier. And right now I know that, although of course I would rather be healthy, I realise that this broken body gives me the opportunity to pray all day or to meditate, or to write in my book.... and to help out wherever I can. My pains are growing worser, the pain in my leg has expanded till above my knee and my foot is dying, and it might possibly be amputated.... The beautiful thing of this all is, that again I feel very close to God.
The minute I cannot take my pain, I cry out to Him "Father, please help me..." and I feel a warmth flowing over me, easing the pains again.... I am listening almost constantly to songs of praise and like in the poem Footprints I feel God is carrying me.... In all the painful misery I am, this is really another beautiful experience and maybe God wanted me to go through this because He wanted to show His Presence in my life again... But anyway, I asked Him to lead me wherever it pleases Him, and since that time I come at the most beautiful places and meet the most beautiful friends... I would not trade my life for a healthy one if it mend I had to live without God. He is always there when I need Him and there is nothing I cannot overcome, because I love God and He loves me and if everything hurts, that is all I need to know.
__________________
 

---

Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
Carmela,
Thank you for sharing that testimony. I agree that God is with us during our physical trials. He gives us strength and comfort to make each day. The testimony is a prime example of why no Christian should judge someone's spiritual health by their physical health.
betty
 

---

Posted by Carmela (Member # 4817) on :
 
Your welcome TG. She certainly has a powerful testimony.
 

---

Posted by Lars7 (Member # 4911) on :
 
Well after reading the posts in here could anyone of you who posted explain to me Ephesians Chapter 1 and verse 3..."Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who HAS blessed us with ALL spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ".........Was something left out in there that I missed?....In these posts we have people praying for healings and not recieving healing.....We have people recieving healing according to there faith....What does that mean?...It sounds as though one can recieve more faith....not so....for the Bible says that we all have recieved the SAME MEASURE OF FAITH...One may build on this faith given....but one will never recieve more faith....example.....Bodybuilders we all have seen them....most of these guys get really huge....how did they do it? They did not recieve more muscles....they did not grow more muscles...No they just strenghtened what they had....In the same way we strengthen our Faith....So lets go back to Eph 1:3....what does that Scripture mean?...Jesus said it this way..."YOU WILL HAVE WHAT YOU SAY"
Period....He puts it another way..."You have life and death in the power of your tonuge...choose life"...You have been blessed with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ.....again what does that mean?....Was healing left out of that statement?...I dont think so....Let us ask ourselves why we pray for something that we have already recieved?....Jesus whole ministry was based soley on teaching us how to recieve from God.Perfect example of this is Mark 11:23 and 11:24.....How quickly we forget....Jesus said and I quote.." What is bound on earth will be bound in heaven....What is loosed on earth will be loosed in heaven"....What is Jesus saying here?.....People pray for all different kinds of things from healing to finances....to well you name it.....But when the diciples asked Jesus how to pray....what did Jesus say....He said pray this way....Our Father who art in Heaven.....well you know the rest....take a good long hard look at that prayer.....then when your done....look at it again...You will see nothing but Praise and Worship.....for this is how we pray!..We do not need to pray for anything for we already have everything in Christ...what more could we need
NOTHING!....Hmmmm....Jesus said..."If you ask anything in My Name according to My will the answer is YES.....What does that mean?....It means number 1 we need to know Gods will....and number 2 the answer is YES ? Anyone care to elarobate on this?
If so please respond by answering my questions.

1. Explain Eph 1:3

2. Explain Mk 11:23 and 24

3. Why did Jesus say when you pray....pray this way
then recite the Our Father

4. Explain what Jesus meant when He said
' What is bound on earth will be bound in Heaven
What is loosed on earth will be loosed in Heaven

I am in no way judging anyone so please do not think I am....I myself have already been judged in Christ and found not guilty...So have YOU! So all the judging has already been done and none of us need to bother with it......But after reading Jesus prayer to the Father for us in John chapter 17...It becomes a hard pill to swollow when people say God is not healing them in order to bring glory to himself in someway....It just makes no sense that a God who created such a complex universe with a planet that we live on thats so incredable and vast not to mention the complexity of our human body and the way in which it functions that He needs to keep some of his creation in sickness to get His will done.....Oh and by the way.....question....What is Gods Will?............anyone
 

---

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lars7:
for the Bible says that we all have recieved the SAME MEASURE OF FAITH...One may build on this faith given....but one will never recieve more faith....example.....Bodybuilders we all have seen them....most of these guys get really huge....how did they do it? They did not recieve more muscles....they did not grow more muscles...No they just strenghtened what they had....In the same way we strengthen our Faith....So lets go back to Eph 1:3....what does that Scripture mean?...Jesus said it this way..."YOU WILL HAVE WHAT YOU SAY"

---

First off manny boddy builders use steriods to enhance the effect.

Second . Ill just repost a site.



Positive Confession

Positive Confession is the belief that if a believer speaks "spiritual" or "faith-filled" words then he can have what he says. Unfortunately, this influence has invaded the church and continues to cause much turmoil and confusion.

Many of the teachers of the word-faith movement believe that words are so powerful that they can influence the physical and spiritual worlds. For example:

In The Tongue, a Creative Force (1976), positive confessionist Charles Capps, teaches that there are powerful "spiritual" words. Such words, which are ordinary words, can under certain circumstances, become vehicles for creative or supernatural power.

When "faith-filled" spiritual words are spoken (as words of power), they can alter the physical and spiritual world. Capps says, "You see there is more to it than just saying it. The words must originate from the inner man where spiritual power is released through words."

He goes on to state that "spirit words can control both the spirit world and the physical world. Because the words themselves have power, they will work for either God or man in the same manner." He goes on:

"The spirit of man is not of this world, it is of the spirit world. The creative ability of man comes through his spirit. He speaks spirit words that work in the world of the spirit. They will also dominate the physical world. He breathes spirit life into God's Word and it becomes a living substance, working for him as it worked for God in the beginning. These spirit words dominate the natural world" (p. 117-118).

What Capps is alluding to in the above statement is his teaching that since God, "by His faith" (using words) spoke this physical world into existence; the believer, using faith, can do the same. That is, the believer can speak things into existence. However, God's word is already "quick and powerful" (Hebrews 4:12), and it is referred to as the "Word of Life" (Phillipians 2:16). It is not necessary to activate it by speaking words of faith as though it were asleep or dead! Rather, it is by hearing the "living" word that one is brought to salvation through faith in Christ. (Romans 10:17)

A number of the prosperity teachers believe that the spiritual world controls and continually forms the physical world. So, if one can learn to control the spiritual world, then he can learn to control the physical world as well. This teaching then becomes the foundation for securing individual prosperity.

That is why in Releasing the Ability of God, Capps states, "You can have what you say! (because) the powerful force of the spiritual world that creates the circumstances around us is controlled by the words of the mouth. This force comes from inside us; the confession of our mouth will cause you to possess it" (pp. 98-99, parenthesis mine). This is why he teaches, "Discipline your vocabulary," and "today your word is god over your circumstances" (pp. 101-104).

Capps also teaches that the power within a Christian, within one's spirit, functions according to unchangeable laws. He says "These principles of faith are based on spiritual laws. They work for whosoever will apply these laws" (The Tongue, p. 103).

D. R. McConnell, in his book, A Different Gospel, directly traces the origin the spiritual laws taught in positive confession to the metaphysics of E.W. Kenyon, a man of 50-60 years ago whose theology was that of Pentecostal Christian Science (A Different Gospel, pp. 3-56).

McConnell records Kenneth Copeland in The Laws of Prosperity (p. 98, 101) as saying, "You can have what you say! In fact, what you are saying is exactly what you are getting now. If you are living in poverty and lack and want, change what you are saying. It will change what you have. Discipline your vocabulary. God will be obligated to meet your needs because of His word. If you stand firmly on this, your needs will be met" (Ibid., p. 173).

McConnell further states, that E.W. Kenyon's New Thought classmate, Ralph Waldo Trine, attributes the confession of prosperity to "Occult power." He says that "Trine believed that thought is a force, and it has Occult power of unknown proportions when rightly used and wisely directed" (Ibid., p. 174).

The usage of Occult powers is, of course, a practice that the Word-Faith teachers would publicly reject. Of course, this is not to say that those offering these teachings are Occultists. They are teachers who may never have thought through the implications of the practices they advocate. They may be unaware of the similarities between certain aspects of positive confession and Occulict practices. Nevertheless, the similarities do exist, and these practices are neither Biblical nor Christian.

John Ankerberg's issue of News and Views, June 1988, p. 1, reports that these words are used in religious rituals to influence both the spirit world and the material world. The report quotes Occult magician David Conway discussing the power of magical words to affect these worlds:

"Unseparable from magical speculation about words is the theory of vibrations, which supposes that certain sounds have a powerful acoustic impact on both the spiritual and astral worlds. Like the spiritual world and astral plane can in some circumstances be affected by sound, so that verbal magic may be said to derive its power not only from the idea contained in certain words, but from the peculiar vibrations these words create when spoken" (Magic: an Occult Primer, pp. 74-75).

Occultists, of course, have long claimed the true inner nature of man is powerful, capable of exercising divine ability. This is why New Ager Benjamin Creme says, for example, "One doesn't pray to oneself, one prays to the God within. The thing is to learn to invoke that energy which is the energy of God. Prayer and worship as we know it today will gradually die out and men will be trained to invoke the (inner) power of deity" (The Reappearance of Christ and the Masters of Wisdom, pp. 135-136, parenthesis mine).

The reason that positive confessionists can place so much emphasis on the inner man and his divine power is that they think the believer is a god. Kenneth Copeland says, "You don't have a god in you, you are one" (Copeland's sermon tape The Force of Love). And Kenneth Hagin says, "The believer is as much an incarnation of God as Jesus Christ" (Hagin, Word of Faith, p. 14).

To the positive confessionist, scripture passages such as Proverbs 18:21, "Death and Life are in the power of the tongue;" and James 3:8-10 are taken as proof of this doctrine, because they believe as "little gods" they have the same power as God through their own words.

Is it any wonder that Charles Capps says "The confession of your mouth even after you have prayed correctly will determine whether or not you receive. You can release the ability of God through the words of your mouth" (Releasing the Ability of God, 1978, pp. 93, 96).

For Christians words and faith are important, but there is a limit to what words can do.

It can help or hurt a close friend or a total stranger by what one says, but to treat words as if they were some "star wars" type weapon by which one alters or manipulates reality is not biblical, but Occultic. If one could change reality by the power of words spoken, then that would put man on the same level with God. This is exactly what teachers of the "positive confession," or word-faith movement, claim.

We are told by God Himself that He spoke the creation into existence (Genesis 1). He has not given that power to anyone else!

http://www.watchman.org/reltop/posconf.htm
 

---

Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
WildB,

Well spoken. We are not God and we do not have His powers. For a preacher to suggest that we can speak it and it happens, is close to blasphmey.
Yes, Jesus said if we had the faith as a musard seed we could move a mountain. Yet, none of those in the Bible moved a mountain with their faith. They had great faith to heal. Why could they not move a mountain? Because it was not God's will. God's miracles are not for us to use as a circus show, moving mountains from place to place.
When Paul asked for healing three times and God said no, he accepted this. No one would dare suggest that Paul was weak-faith. Yet when we see our neighbors sick or crippled and we pray for them and they are not heal, we blame them. It must be their weak faith, or I would have been able to heal. We forget that the healing comes from God, not us. If God has a reason, not to heal, it is not a reflection on us, if we pray and God says no. So we can stop being so defensive and lookig to blame someone, when things don't happen like we thought they would. What do you do, if God does not heal your neighbor? Well you be a friend for your neighbor. You help your neighbor. Can you do little errands for your neighbor? Can you be someone they can talk to, when they are feeling blue? Don't get angry at your neighbor if God says not to healing them. Don't get angry at God, He knows best.
betty
 

---

Posted by oneyearandcounting (Member # 4449) on :
 
Hello Betty,

I hope you and your family are well. I have something I would like to see what you and the others think about. Jesus said if wehad the faith of a mustard seed we could move mountains.

The other day I was reading this and I thought wow how much faith do you need to move a mountain. Seeing as how I believe anythingis possible through Christ as ong as it is the will of God I went outside. Basically I figured if my faith was strong enough I could at least move a tree. Well the wind blew and the tree swayed a bit. So I guess it kindof moved.

Now on a more serios note I really started thinking about The mustard seed. Heres what I came up with. If as a believer we have faith anything can happen as long as its Gods will. But I think that the parable is like telling us that if we had a strong faith and I mean as a group that mountains would move. The power of prayer.

The more people that pray for the same thing the more likely God is to answer that prayer. So if all the people have the faith of a small seed then how powerful would we be.

When he gave the parable he was talking to a group of his followers so maybe that is the clue to move a mountain.

Hopefully that makes sence to someone besides myself. Well I'm off to work on my mustard seed.


God bless
greg
 

---

Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
I have seen what you said, in some cases.
When our Pastor in Texas was dying of cancer 30 plus years ago, the Church bonded in prayer and he was healed and still Pastor's a Church at 78.
But on the other hand the same people bonded in prayer for his wife who has MD and God said no to healing her. They both are very faithful to God to this day. In spite of her health issues her faith in God is strong and she continues to be a good servant of Christ.
Her faith in Christ did not falter because God chose to heal her husband and not her. In fact I can tell you that if you asked her if she would rather suffer daily pain and have her husband well she would say, yes, with out a second thought. She is devoted to her husband.
We should keep our faith in Jesus whether God chooses to heal or not.
betty
 

---

Posted by oneyearandcounting (Member # 4449) on :
 
Oh this I know his will is the most important thing.I'm not saying that if a bunch of us get together then God has to do something. but the numbers part of it are real important.

When I was a little kid I got A stick in my eye. Well when I came to know Christ and believe that through him anything was possible. Well I prayed that I could get my site back in that eye. But his will be done I said. Well I am happy to announce that almost two years after getting saved my Eye is still completely not healed.

Like others who trust in God though an have illnesses, I realize that this will just go on to Make my faith stonger. Much like others who are sick. They don't lose faith when the healing doesn't come they just look at how God can use it for his own Glory.


Well God bless
greg


God bless
greg
 

---

Posted by Lars7 (Member # 4911) on :
 
Why is it that everyone when talking about healing always comes around to Paul.....Paul did not ask for a healing....he was not sick....Paul asked God to remove the thorn in his side....and right after that the Bible tell you what that thorn was....A messanger from satan was buffeting paul by bringing persecutation where paul went....just look at what paul went through....whippings...major beatings....prision lockup...stoning and left for dead....Clearly satan was doing all he could to stop Paul from preaching the Gospel...This was Pauls thorn....Read it again....A messanger from satan is not a sickness...The pesecutation that Paul faced while preaching the Gospel was His thorn. This is how Paul could then go on to say after the Lord told Him that His Grace is sufficient that when I am weak then I am strong!....Nowhere and I mean nowhere is there memtion of sickness...In fact in Pauls weakest moment when He was left for dead....rose up to continue preaching to the amazment of the people who thought he was dead.
Only by the Grace of God did this happen.....Amazing fact....we have only one Spirit of truth in the person of the Holy Spirit....yet we have so many with different views on Scripture.
Now Jesus said that if you have the faith of a mustard seed you can move mountians...1st off does anyone know why Jesus refered this to a mustard seed?....Its because its the smallest seed known to man that yeilds the largest harvest...2nd Jesus was not refering to moving real mountians...The mountians that Jesus refers to are your problems.
And we all have mountians in our lives...in an obstacale that we cannot get over....for our answer always lies on the other side of that mountian.....and most people only see the huge mountian in front of them again your problems whatever they may be....So read it again and when you see the word mountian...place your problem in there in place of the word mountian. There are two things that Jesus said you MUST DO before you come to the Father for anything....1st is if you have ought against anyone forgive...2nd is Believe!
Believe in what?....Problem is that 95% of so called Christians base there faith on the experience of others....well so and so was a great faith pastor yet he died of cancer and was not healed...so it must be that God had said no for the reason only God knows....People need to realize that Jesus came to set us Free from the bondage that we were in....sickness is a bondage
in that you are tied to it....Jesus set us free from all bondage when He said on the cross ' It is finished".....Jesus came into this world while we were still sinners deserving death and damnation.
We were a vile people wanting only to apease to our own flesh....Yet out of Love and not pity He came to set us free from the opression of the devil at our lowest point....How much more now will God give to his children!....Hello anyone home?...Jesus said go into the world and HEAL ALL who are opressed of the devil....he did not put any conditions on it...He said go heal all!!!!!!!
Greater Works than I will you do!!!!!!!!
What are these greater works He speaks of!!!!
Anyone......? God does not play favriots as some may believe....For we are all one in Christ if He heals just one then bound by His Word He must heal all....Back in my last post I had asked a few questions....I see no one answered them....I wonder why?.....................................
 

---

Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
Because MOST people believe Paul's thorn was a vision problem. He even said that when he wrote part of the letter himself, that they would know it was him, because the letters were so big.
betty
 

---

Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
Lars7
You answer a question for me. If it is a faith issue why did the same group pray for two people and one was healed and one was not?
betty
 

---

Posted by Lars7 (Member # 4911) on :
 
Well Im not sure what it is you are refering to Betty...please give me scripture refering to what you are asking.......Why was Jesus of no effect in His own homeland....because of unbelief...nothing more.....He was more than willing to heal anyone....but no one believed......so please give me scripture on what you are refering to.
 

---

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lars7:
Well Im not sure what it is you are refering to Betty...please give me scripture refering to what you are asking.......Why was Jesus of no effect in His own homeland....because of unbelief...nothing more.....He was more than willing to heal anyone....but no one believed......so please give me scripture on what you are refering to.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by WildB:
Remember your own very words this day~THY FAITH...THY FAITH...THY FAITH.

And as cancer eats away at the temple. You will come to know the only ONE FAITH.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by WhiteEagle:

quote:

---

Originally posted by WildB:
Remember your own very words this day~THY FAITH...THY FAITH...THY FAITH.

And as cancer eats away at the temple. You will come to know the only ONE FAITH.

---

Cancer, heart disease, autoimmune diseases, stomach diseases, are among the many diseases with the root caused by stress, worry, doubt, upsets.

We have worry, doubts, stress and upsets due to not resting in the Lord. So worry, stress and doubts are all sins.

Long term stress weakens ones' immune system and they end up sick with cancer, heart disease etc.

It is about faith in God.

We are to take care of our temple the body as much as we can. We are stewards of why God has given us.

We reap what we sow, physically even though God can redeem the spiritual aspect sometimes the Laws of the physcial will be allowed to have their way.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by WhiteEagle:


Christ has conquered death or separation from God, so that we may be with God after physcial death.

In fulfillment physical death will also be abolished when Christ comes again to rule on earth.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
You're correct Dorcas was serving in Faith and died. Her faith didn't leave her dead, did it?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by WildB:

quote:

---

Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
You're correct Dorcas was serving in Faith and died. Her faith didn't leave her dead, did it?

---

You have missed the mark once again.Please go back and STUDY the script that was posted. This raiseing had nothing to do with her faith, which did not heal her. It had to do with the need of the Church at that time for the dresses she did make.

Foot note; The script said only that she was raised from the dead, not healed. presented her alive. Being presented alive and being healed are to different things.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by WhiteEagle:

quote:

---

Originally posted by WildB:

quote:

---

Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
You're correct Dorcas was serving in Faith and died. Her faith didn't leave her dead, did it?

---

You have missed the mark once again.Please go back and STUDY the script that was posted. This raiseing had nothing to do with her faith, which did not heal her. It had to do with the need of the Church at that time for the dresses she did make.

Foot note; The script said only that she was raised from the dead, not healed. presented her alive. Being presented alive and being healed are to different things.

---

God raised her from the dead because the Church needed dresses????????????????


Come on now!

How ridiculous.

I'm not wasting any more time on you.

---