Christian Message Boards: Prove the Existence of God without the Bible?

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Posted by waynemlj (Member # 7041) on :

Can you prove the existence of God without referring to the Bible?

Of course, it's easy through simple logic.

Could there ever have been a time when there was nothing . . . ABSOLUTELY NOTHING?

If you answer this question correctly, you have a solid premise to begin a proof for the existence of God. Logic is the subject of philosophy which goes hand-in-hand with theology.

Anyone interested in philosophy discussions like this?

waynemlj

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

The Argument from Efficient Causality

We notice that some things cause other things to be (to begin to be, to continue to be, or both). For example, a man playing the piano is causing the music that we hear. If he stops, so does the music.

Now ask yourself: Are all things caused to exist by other things right now? Suppose they are. That is, suppose there is no Uncaused Being, no God.

Then nothing could exist right now. For remember, on the no-God hypothesis, all things need a present cause outside of themselves in order to exist. So right now, all things, including all those things which are causing other things to be, need a cause. They can give being only so long as they are given being. Everything that exists, therefore, on this hypothesis, stands in need of being caused to exist.

But caused by what? Beyond everything that is, there can only be nothing. But that is absurd: all of reality dependent—but dependent on nothing! The hypothesis that all being is caused, that there is no Uncaused Being, is absurd. So there must be something uncaused, something on which all things that need an efficient cause of being are dependent.

Existence is like a gift given from cause to effect. If there is no one who has the gift, the gift cannot be passed down the chain of receivers, however long or short the chain may be. If everyone has to borrow a certain book, but no one actually has it, then no one will ever get it. If there is no God who has existence by his own eternal nature, then the gift of existence cannot be passed down the chain of creatures and we can never get it. But we do get it; we exist. Therefore there must exist a God: an Uncaused Being who does not have to receive existence like us—and like every other link in the chain of receivers.

Posted by waynemlj (Member # 7041) on :

Hi Carol,

Yes, your argument is based on sound logic! That's the kind of response I was looking for.

There is an interesting point to be made here to be sure that you and I give the correct answer to anyone pursuing this line of reasoning.

The danger of a false argument comes when a person says every "cause" must have a cause."

The correct philosophical statement, however, is that every "effect" must have a cause; otherwise, we end up trying to find a cause for the first cause which, as you correctly point out, leads to what is called an absurd progression backwards.

I was watching carefully to see how you would argue your position, and you did it very well, saying that God is the Uncaused Cause.

That of course means that He is SELF-EXISTENT being from which all being comes, Eternally SELF-EXISTENT outside of time (which He created for His creatures to exist in).

Nice job!

waynemlj

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

waynemlj

Thank you. Well, I wish I could say I was that smart, but no. My answer came from The Handbook of Christian Apologetics . If you like this kind of logical argument, apologetics is something you will enjoy. In the General Discussion Forum, back in the beginning of December, I posted twenty apologetic arguments for the existance of God from this book.

I also recommend Lee Strobel, and two DVDs that prove intelligent design: The Privileged Planet and Unlocking the Mystery of Life. Both excellant productions. The beginning of the Universe, (including time, matter and energy) is called the Cosmological Singularity and has been proven through science. These DVDs were real eye openers for me.

Posted by waynemlj (Member # 7041) on :

Hi Carol,

Thanks for the references. I'll check into them. I already know about Lee Strobel and visit his site.

I have read a very good book on the subject of apologetics called Classical Apologetics authored by Dr. R.C. Sproul, John Gerstner, and Arthur Lindsley.

It's a rational defense of the Christian faith and a critique of presuppositional apologetics.
Not a book that one can race through but an excellent reference to have if you're interested in that kind of knowledge.

It can be obtained from Ligonier Ministries at the link below.

http://www.ligonier.org/rym.php

waynemlj

Posted by BrianGrass1234 (Member # 5845) on :

This might be a dumb question. But if God can exist without a cause, why can't something else exist without a cause?

Posted by CHEWY (Member # 6970) on :

As you break everything down to the points of existence you ultimately have to have an "uncaused" cause. When you consider the facets of a possible "Big Bang" in theory, you ultimately have to have an explosion where nothing existed to explode. Isn't that impossible?

Chewy-

Posted by waynemlj (Member # 7041) on :

quote:
Originally posted by BrianGrass1234:
This might be a dumb question. But if God can exist without a cause, why can't something else exist without a cause?

Hi BianGrass1234,

You can settle this question in your mind very easily. Whatever would exist without a cause would have to be something that contained the power of existence eternally. It could not have a beginning because NOTHING cannot produce something.

Whatever has that power would have to be completely transcendent above all other existence.

This "something" would also have to have the power (within itself) to produce all other existing matter, including the tremendous order and purpose and design that we see in the stars, planets, and the life forms on our own planet.

Only God has Self-Existence and the transcendent power of such intelligent, ordered and purposeful design in creation, wouldn't you agree?

waynemlj

Posted by BrianGrass1234 (Member # 5845) on :

I agree with you that I believe only God is eternal and created everything. But I don't see how the argument that everything needs a cause, points to the only cause being God or defining God as the only eternal thing that could exist. All it shows is that either there is something eternal that caused everything else to exist, the earth and universe has always been, or something did have to come from nothing. None of these things point specifically to a God existing. What point am I missing?

Posted by David Campbell (Member # 1) on :

.

Here are some online video that may shine some light on this subject:

Does God Exist? - Ray Comfort
http://www.jesusclips.com/view_video.php?viewkey=4e92cc5af043eebfd094

http://www.jesusclips.com/view_video.php?viewkey=d3dcaefc96f40275bdc0

Proof God is Real
http://youtube.com/watch?v=vEXGKzH0F9c

Proving the Existence of the Eternal God
http://youtube.com/watch?v=1TevkzHQhh0

.

Posted by Isaiah (Member # 6699) on :

Let me just break it down here...

Yep -the chicken came first -otherwise the egg could not have been incubated -bock bock

This requires that the chicken -as with other creatures -were created 'after their kind'

can't argue with chicken logic

[hyper]

Posted by hittite1963 (Member # 7092) on :

I just preached a sermon asking the quesiton: "Is There Evidence That God Exists?" Much of the lesson considered some of the points that have been mentioned. I addressed four points:

I. Every Cause Has An Effect.
II. The Universe Displays Design.
III. Universal Religion is Evidence of Revelation.
IV. The Bible is of Supernatural Character.

I should have the PPT posted this week at the chuch website under "Bible Studies" > "Sermons"

http://www.olsenpark.com

The audio is available here:

http://www.olsenpark.com/aud/Audio08/03-23-08-PM.mp3

You might find this useful.

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

It pleased God that through the foolishness of preaching, that men should be saved. If we could prove Him, that verse would be irrelevant. God is 'pleased' that through the 'foolishness of preaching', that men should be saved.

I know! We all want to prove Him. That is not what God wants. Moreover:

Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Posted by padre (Member # 7102) on :

If you were walking through the woods and came upon a wooden chair, did it have a maker or creator?

Of course it did. Even a skeptic will tell us that and that very same skeptic will also tell us that the billions and billions of stars and planets all rotating and revolving around with one another with the accuracy and coordination of a synchronized swim team and the thousands of miles of intestines and blood veins each one of us contain in our bodies that also work remarkably well had to have been caused from evolution or a big bang.

For by grace are we saved through faith, not proof.

but there is proof...

Once you take that step in faith then all of the proof you could ever want is presented to you.

You will never prove to a non-believer there is a God, with or without a Bible and to a believer, they have stepped out in faith and know God. Our best "proof" of God is our testimony and our actions.