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Peace Plan by Rick Warren

Dear Friends:
This weekend, I will begin teaching the most important series of messages we've ever taught in 23 years here at Saddleback church. We believe it is part of the beginning of a Spiritual Awakening, a Global Movement , a New Reformation.

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The continuing sales of The Purpose Driven Life are quite amazing. We are almost at the tipping point where Purpose Driven Life becomes a national phenomena. It will hit 10 million copies sold by the end of December and has been on the New York Times hardback bestsellers longer than any other book this year (40 weeks) A couple weeks ago I did 6 TV interviews including Fox News Live, ABC, NBC, and CBN, so this spiritual awakening is starting to get the attention of the media.

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I now believe that know why God is blessing this book in such an unusual way. It is more than just a message that God wants to get out to everyone(which is huge). I now also see that God is using this phenomena to expand the platform for us to mobilize thousands of local churches for global world missions through the PEACE plan.

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Right now about 5,000 more churches are doing the 40 Day of Purpose campaign, and now the program has been adopted by corporations (like Coke and Walmart) sports teams (like the Oakland Raiders and Green Bay Packers, NASCAR drivers, and the LPGA) schools, civic clubs, and even prisons. Last week, Paul Harvey told everyone to go buy a copy of PDL on his ABC radio broadcast. He said "This is one of the most insightful books I've ever read and I will read it again...and again...and again." In 2004 we expect over 15,000 more churches to participate.

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It's all about the global glory of God! We intend to leverage the attention that the Purpose Driven Life has garnered to bring about a whole new way of thinking and acting in the church about our responsibility in the world.

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Well, I was going to say if this email is true, it would speak volumes. However, I have been doing a little research and come up with some more links:

A GLOBAL PEACE PLAN

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He is calling it “the most important series of messages we've ever taught in 23 years here at Saddleback church” He says “We believe it is part of the beginning of a Spiritual Awakening, a Global Movement, a New Reformation.”

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The next phase of the game plan of the new evangelical gurus, (Rick Warren, Robert Schuller, and Bruce Wilkinson) is God’s plan to change the world through the seeker-friendly churches that buy into Rick Warren's new global peace plan that he says WILL HAPPEN. PEACE stands for:

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"Rick Warren and others say we need to pay attention to the emerging church. Things are changing, they say and the ?emerging church? has the answers for our generation. But what will the emerging church emerge into? Could it be a form of Christianity that embraces experience rather than God?s Word?"

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You see, I believe God gets the most glory when we take down the biggest giants in His name. That's what little David did with Goliath. Since AIDS is the biggest giant on our planet right now, then there's got to be some Davids out there who can take it down for God's glory.

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So, I'm going to take a risk, and share our plan with you. My hope is that our plan will stimulate your creativity and you'll come up with a plan for your part of solving the puzzle -- because it is going to take everybody doing something. Here's our P.E.A.C.E. plan:

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WOW! I'ts going to take me some time to go through all this material. This is interesting yet frightening. This PDL stuff is being thrust foward rapidly. It's all over the news, people are talking about it. Hmmmm! This is something we need to watch very carefully.

God bless and stay strong.

P.S. Here's the Google:

warren peace plan
 

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Posted by hardcore (Member # 4492) on :
 
Mark my words Soft Touch ... people will come out of the woodwork to defend Warren, his books, and his plan. Afterall, we aren't supposed to judge! *tongue firmly planted in cheek*

The passing of the pope this past week has proven without a shadow of a doubt how blind a great majority of bible-believing Christians are.

They claim to be concerned about the lost, and then do nothing but defend false teachers - one in particular who deceived people by the millions.

Unity over doctrine. One of the end-time mantras.

I have come to believe that His true remnant is far smaller, and the way much narrower than we ever thought.

Now I will come join you behind your wall and we can deflect the stones together!
 

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Posted by Ripp (Member # 3832) on :
 
hardcore wrote:

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I have come to believe that His true remnant is far smaller, and the way much narrower than we ever thought.

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Catholic churches are using "PDL"

The Purpose Driven Life (3 more Monday evenings, continuing MONDAY, December 1st, 7:30-9:00pm, top floor of the Trinity Center. Cost: $15/person.) Having finished the first 21 days of the book, our growing group decided to push on to the end (so if you've already read parts of the book and weren't able to join us in November, now's the time to hop aboard!) In 2002, Rick Warren, the founding pastor of Saddleback Church in California (a gigantic evangelical community), published "The Purpose Driven Life", a follow-on to his previous best-seller, "The Purpose-Driven Church". It is written particularly for people who are searching for a deeper, more meaningful walk with Christ. The book has 40 chapters, one for each day of a 40 day program. If you're looking to really be challenged in your faith, your direction in life and your understanding of God's plan for you, set aside some time and plan on joining us.

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Warrens "PDL" is listed as a Top 10 Catholic Bestseller

I am just dumbfounded. Soft, thank you for posting that, I had NO idea it was this big.

God bless.
 

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Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on :
 
LOL Sister Hardcore! Come on back here... we've got the shield of Faith to deflect the stones

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Originally posted by Ripp:
Soft, thank you for posting that,

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You're welcome my Brother and fellow Watcher! My (new) pastor calls me his "Sheep Dog" cause I bark really loudly to warn the shepard when I see DANGER LOL
 

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Posted by hardcore (Member # 4492) on :
 
Ripp:
"Sister, I was thinking the same thing today. I have been picking my brain all day over the death of the Pope and what I see happening with the apostasy and it's not a pretty picture."

I agree. I think we took a huge plunge down the slippery slope this week. The line is really being drawn in the sand, and it's time for professing bible believers to think long and hard about which side of it they're on.

This reminds me - what happened to your post regarding the flesh? Think I saw it a couple of days ago? Can't find it now.
 

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Posted by Ripp (Member # 3832) on :
 

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Originally posted by hardcore:
Ripp:
"Sister, I was thinking the same thing today. I have been picking my brain all day over the death of the Pope and what I see happening with the apostasy and it's not a pretty picture."

I agree. I think we took a huge plunge down the slippery slope this week. The line is really being drawn in the sand, and it's time for professing bible believers to think long and hard about which side of it they're on.

This reminds me - what happened to your post regarding the flesh? Think I saw it a couple of days ago? Can't find it now.

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Hehe well, it wasn't a very popular post but I knew that when I wrote it. But the Spirit led me to write it and so I did. You can find the link here:

Our Flesh

God bless.

P.S. My Spirit is still bothered by what's going on, more in the world though. Things just don't seem right. Some kind of spiritual struggle is going on. I guess we will know soon enough where we are headed and how fast. I still feel like we are turning a corner, the tide seems to be turning. It's a strange feeling...
 

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Posted by Trafield (Member # 758) on :
 
SoftTouch
Still after Rick Warren, I see...

Warren's P.E.A.C.E pland is harldy THE PEACE plan that we are looking for. It sounds like Warren wants the churches to be one of power...good for him.
Even if you are right about Warren, the only ones "he can hand over" are those who do not know Jesus Christ as Lord. In case you forgot, Jesus promised never to leave us nor forake us.

I still say you are barking up the wrong tree and condemning a man of God. God help you if I am right.
 

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Posted by Ripp (Member # 3832) on :
 

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Originally posted by Trafield:
SoftTouch
Still after Rick Warren, I see...

Warren's P.E.A.C.E pland is harldy THE PEACE plan that we are looking for. It sounds like Warren wants the churches to be one of power...good for him.
Even if you are right about Warren, the only ones "he can hand over" are those who do not know Jesus Christ as Lord. In case you forgot, Jesus promised never to leave us nor forake us.

I still say you are barking up the wrong tree and condemning a man of God. God help you if I am right.

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A few months ago a friend phoned to ask if I had ever heard of Rick Warren. “Yes” I replied. “Why are you asking”? He said, “I just got kicked out of a Bible Study for bringing my Bible to it.” That is how the idea for this article came to me.

The Bible study my friend attended was really a Purpose Driven Life study group. The Purpose Driven Life book they were studying referenced Bible passages that sounded off base. He was told that if he was going to attend the study, he would have to leave his Bible at home, because the issues he brought up were disruptive to the group. He chose to quit instead. [by Pastor Bob DeWaay]

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Warren also promotes “breath prayers” which are endless repetitions of short phrases (Warren: 89). Jesus forbids this type of prayer: “And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition, as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words” (Matthew 6:7). It is a pagan practice that has the effect of shutting down the mind. Warren suggests that God will share His secrets with us if we follow Warren’s techniques (Warren: 91). He promises that the meditative techniques he promotes will “let God speak to you” (Warren: 91). He says, “In the next chapter we will see four more secrets of cultivating a friendship with God” (Warren: 91).

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There are no such secrets. There are the things revealed which are clearly taught in the Scriptures, and the secret things that belong to God alone (Deuteronomy 29:29). Secret, spiritual knowledge and techniques for gaining such knowledge are called “divination” in the Bible and are forbidden. The way to be a friend of God is through repenting and believing the gospel; it is not by practicing mystical religious techniques. MacArthur says, “Thus in the inspired word of the Bible, and only there, we have the mind of God and the mind of Christ” (MacArthur: 212).

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Rick Warren makes an amazing claim. He writes, “The last thing many believers need today is to go to another Bible study. They already know far more than they are putting into practice” (Warren: 231). This shows that his deeper life pietism is an alternative to the means of grace provided in Scripture. The Word of God is a gracious means by which God changes us. Warren reduces the Bible to an instruction manual, a how to live a better life guideline. In that sort of thinking we should stop progress until we have mastered everything learned so far. But that is not what the Bible says. The Word of God changes us progressively. As we study we have our minds renewed and our faith strengthened. If we must put into practice what we learn before we study more we would never study the Bible again after reading this verse: “Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect” (Matthew 5:48). According to Warren’s logic, if we know that verse, we know more than we are putting into practice and we should not go to another Bible study.

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Later in his book we learn why Warren warns against Bible study for those who are not perfect: he has an alternative! “I strongly urge you to gather a small group of friends and form a Purpose-Driven Life Reading Group to review these chapters on a weekly basis” (Warren: 307). We are to have a Warren study to replace the Bible study. The amazing thing is that thousands and thousands of groups around the world have taken Warren’s advice and began studying his book, leaving their Bibles at home. Pastors are preaching from Warren’s materials rather than God’s Word. Warren also says, “After you have gone through this book together as a group, you might consider studying other purpose-driven life studies that are available for classes and groups” (Warren: 307). The message of the gospel has been replaced with the method of Rick Warren. The Bible has been supplanted by the wisdom of man.

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The Gospel: A Method or a Message?

Perhaps the best way to see what is going on is at the following links:

An Analysis of Rick Warren's "Purpose Driven" Church Growth Strategy

The Church Growth Movement & Purpose Driven Church VERSUS The Bible

I see many problems here, do you? Can you? I realize that on the surface it sounds great. But that's the thing. You have to scratch the surface to see how infected the sore really is.

God bless.
 

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Posted by hardcore (Member # 4492) on :
 

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Originally posted by Trafield:
SoftTouch
Still after Rick Warren, I see...

Warren's P.E.A.C.E pland is harldy THE PEACE plan that we are looking for. It sounds like Warren wants the churches to be one of power...good for him.
Even if you are right about Warren, the only ones "he can hand over" are those who do not know Jesus Christ as Lord. In case you forgot, Jesus promised never to leave us nor forake us.

I still say you are barking up the wrong tree and condemning a man of God. God help you if I am right.

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Trafield ...

I don't think (although she'd have to clarify) that she is implying that Warren's plan is "THE PEACE plan that we're looking for".

You think it's good for the churches to be one power or am I misunderstanding you?

Plenty of Christians have been, and will continue to be, deceived. Ever read the letters to the seven churches in Revelation? Jesus didn't forsake them, but He sure had a few things to say to them. Ever read the warnings throughout the scriptures regarding false teachers? He gave us those warnings for a reason.

Warren's stuff doesn't square with scripture. Period. Do I judge his heart? No way. Do I judge his teaching? You bet.

Catholic doctrine doesn't square with scripture. Period. Do I judge the hearts of catholic people? Absolutely not. Do I judge catholic doctrine? Absolutely.

Some on this board (and elsewhere) are having a serious problem understanding the difference between judging people and judging doctrine. They are two entirely different things.

We are not barking up the wrong tree with Warren, nor are we condeming him personally. We are questioning his teaching versus what scripture says.

Those who refuse to stand for THE TRUTH are helping to "love" people straight to hell's door in the name of ecumenism and tolerance.

You say "God help you if I am right". No worries. We are doing exactly what the Word tells us to do.

I say "God help us all if we continue to stay silent in the face of an ever-increasing apostate church".
 

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Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on :
 
AMEN Sister Hardcore! AMEN!

And you're absolutely right Sis, I'm not saying that is the "Peace Plan" that we're all looking for.


And yes Tra, I'm still pointing out Warren, and Hinn, and all the WOF Teachers, and the Vatican, and any False Teacher/Prophet that I find out about. We are Called to do this! What Ripp and Hardcore are saying is the Truth! I hope everyone will listen!

We must keep our Doctrine PURE and stay Obedient to our Heavenly Father! The Lord has given us "Watchers on the Wall" who sound the alarm when the wolves are threatening the flock. If we don't listen to what they say, then the devil will devoure as many of the sheep as he can
 

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Posted by Trafield (Member # 758) on :
 
Again, here is Rick Warren's statement of beliefs for Saddleback Church. What do you all disagree with here?

I read on these posts that he is a false prophet, and yet I also read that you are not judging him only his doctrine. It is obvious some here like Softouch believe he is a false prophet. And she has been warned about going against God's anointed.

http://www.saddleback.com/flash/believe2.html
What is The Bible?
The Holy Spirit inspired human authors to write the books of the Bible. Every word of scripture is chosen by God himself. The Bible is God’s love letter to all of humanity and is the final authority in every issue it communicates. It is complete truth, and we can trust it for all matters in this life and eternity. (Exodus 24:4; Deuteronomy 4:1-2; 17:19; Joshua 8:34; Psalm 19:7-10; 119:11,89,105,140; Isaiah 34:16; 40:8; Jeremiah 15:16; 36; Matthew 5:17-18; 22:29; Luke 21:33; 24:44-46; John 5:39; 16:13-15; 17:17; Acts 2:16ff.; 17:11; Romans 15:4; 16:25-26; 2 Timothy 3:15-17; Hebrews 1:1-2; 4:12; 1 Peter 1:25; 2 Peter 1:19-21)


Who is God?
Many people have differing ideas about the nature of God. Most of those ideas have one thing in common – they are the product of human intellect! When it comes to our Creator, it matters very little who we think God is. The Bible is the only trustworthy source for understanding Him. Scripture teaches that God created everything we can see -- and even everything we can’t see -- out of nothing. Although it might be difficult for the human mind to comprehend, the Bible teaches that He is one yet has existed since the beginning of time as three distinct and equal persons: the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. (Genesis 1:1; 2:7; Exodus 3:14; 6:2-3; 15:11ff.; 20:1ff.; Leviticus 22:2; Deuteronomy 6:4; 32:6; 1 Chronicles 29:10; Psalm 19:1-3; Isaiah 43:3,15; 64:8; Jeremiah 10:10; 17:13; Matthew 6:9ff.; 7:11; 23:9; 28:19; Mark 1:9-11; John 4:24; 5:26; 14:6-13; 17:1-8; Acts 1:7; Romans 8:14-15; 1 Corinthians 8:6; Galatians 4:6; Ephesians 4:6; Colossians 1:15; 1 Timothy 1:17; Hebrews 11:6; 12:9; 1 Peter 1:17; 1 John 5:7)

Who is Jesus?
Jesus Christ is God’s Son and an equal of the Father. He has existed from the beginning of time, yet lived on earth during the first century A.D. Throughout His earthly life, he was completely God and completely human at the same time. After living a perfect, sinless life, Jesus offered Himself as the perfect sacrifice for every human being who has ever lived by dying on a Roman cross. After three days in the grave, he defeated sin and death by rising from the grave. He then ascended to Heaven and will return to earth one day to reign as King. (Genesis 18:1ff.; Psalm 2:7ff.; 110:1ff.; Isaiah 7:14; 53; Matthew 1:18-23; 3:17; 8:29; 11:27; 14:33; 16:16,27; 17:5; 27; 28:1-6,19; Mark 1:1; 3:11; Luke 1:35; 4:41; 22:70; 24:46; John 1:1-18,29; 10:30,38; 11:25-27; 12:44-50; 14:7-11; 16:15-16,28; 17:1-5, 21-22; 20:1-20,28; Acts 1:9; 2:22-24; 7:55-56; 9:4-5,20; Romans 1:3-4; 3:23-26; 5:6-21; 8:1-3,34; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:30; 2:2; 8:6; 15:1-8,24-28; 2 Corinthians 5:19-21; 8:9; Galatians 4:4-5; Ephesians 1:20; 3:11; 4:7-10; Philippians 2:5-11; Colossians 1:13-22; 2:9; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18; 1 Timothy 2:5-6; 3:16; Titus 2:13-14; Hebrews 1:1-3; 4:14-15; 7:14-28; 9:12-15,24-28; 12:2; 13:8; 1 Peter 2:21-25; 3:22; 1 John 1:7-9; 3:2; 4:14-15; 5:9; 2 John 7-9; Revelation 1:13-16; 5:9-14; 12:10-11; 13:8; 19:16)


Who is the Holy Spirit?
The Holy Spirit is a full and equal part of the Trinity. He works in the world to make all people understand their need for Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit lives inside every follower of Jesus from the moment they decide to follow Him. The Spirit is our power source for life, ministry and spiritual growth. To tap into that power, we must continually yield to the Holy Spirit. (Genesis 1:2; Judges 14:6; Job 26:13; Psalm 51:11; 139:7ff.; Isaiah 61:1-3; Joel 2:28-32; Matthew 1:18; 3:16; 4:1; 12:28-32; 28:19; Mark 1:10,12; Luke 1:35; 4:1,18-19; 11:13; 12:12; 24:49; John 4:24; 14:16-17,26; 15:26; 16:7-14; Acts 1:8; 2:1-4,38; 4:31; 5:3; 6:3; 7:55; 8:17,39; 10:44; 13:2; 15:28; 16:6; 19:1-6; Romans 8:9-11,14-16,26-27; 1 Corinthians 2:10-14; 3:16; 12:3-11,13; Galatians 4:6; Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30; 5:18; 1 Thessalonians 5:19; 1 Timothy 3:16; 4:1; 2 Timothy 1:14; 3:16; Hebrews 9:8,14; 2 Peter 1:21; 1 John 4:13; 5:6-7; Revelation 1:10; 22:17)


Who is Man?
Man is the pinnacle of God’s creation and the only being on the earth whom God made in His own spiritual image, with the moral ability to choose right from wrong. Every person, although endowed with the image of God, inherited a disobedient heart from Adam, the very first man. This attitude of disobedience (called sin in the Bible) – unless rectified through Christ – forever keeps man from forming a relationship with his Creator. This attitude also keeps us from being the kind of person God created us to be. (Genesis 1:26-30; 2:5,7,18-22; 3; 9:6; Psalm 1; 8:3-6; 32:1-5; 51:5; Isaiah 6:5; Jeremiah 17:5; Matthew 16:26; Acts 17:26-31; Romans 1:19-32; 3:10-18,23; 5:6,12,19; 6:6; 7:14-25; 8:14-18,29; 1 Corinthians 1:21-31; 15:19,21-22; Ephesians 2:1-22; Colossians 1:21-22; 3:9-11)

What is Salvation?
Our disobedient nature has eternally separated us from our Creator. No matter how hard we try, we can never earn our way back into God’s presence. Our only hope is to trust Jesus as God’s provision for our disobedience. Whenever you make that decision, you step into the eternal and abundant life Jesus promises for all believers. (Genesis 3:15; Exodus 3:14-17; 6:2-8; Matthew 1:21; 4:17; 16:21-26; 27:22-28:6; Luke 1:68-69; 2:28-32; John 1:11-14,29; 3:3-21,36; 5:24; 10:9,28-29; 15:1-16; 17:17; Acts 2:21; 4:12; 15:11; 16:30-31; 17:30-31; 20:32; Romans 1:16-18; 2:4; 3:23-25; 4:3ff.; 5:8-10; 6:1-23; 8:1-18,29-39; 10:9-10,13; 13:11-14; 1 Corinthians 1:18,30; 6:19-20; 15:10; 2 Corinthians 5:17-20; Galatians 2:20; 3:13; 5:22-25; 6:15; Ephesians 1:7; 2:8-22; 4:11-16; Philippians 2:12-13; Colossians 1:9-22; 3:1ff.; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; 2 Timothy 1:12; Titus 2:11-14; Hebrews 2:1-3; 5:8-9; 9:24-28; 11:1-12:8,14; James 2:14-26; 1 Peter 1:2-23; 1 John 1:6-2:11; Revelation 3:20; 21:1-22:5)

If I Accept Jesus Christ Is My Salvation Forever?
Definitely! Your salvation is through the most trustworthy being in the universe – Jesus Christ! You didn’t do anything to earn your salvation, and you can’t do anything to lose it. Your salvation is maintained by God’s trustworthiness and love not by what you do. (John 3:16; John 10:27-29; Rom. 8:35-39; John 6:37,39; Eph. 1:13-14; John 5:24)

How do we grow as believers?
God has set us apart (sanctified us) for the purpose of growing us to become more like His Son. Through our faith in the Bible and the transforming work of the Holy Spirit, God changes our heart in order to change our character and actions. God’s promise is that when we reach heaven, He will complete the process of making every believer like Jesus.
(Deuteronomy 4:1,5,9,14; 6:1-10; 31:12-13; Nehemiah 8:1-8; Job 28:28; Psalm 19:7ff.; 119:11; Proverbs 3:13ff.; 4:1-10; 8:1-7,11; 15:14; Ecclesiastes 7:19; Matthew 5:2; 7:24ff.; 28:19-20; Luke 2:40; 1 Corinthians 1:18-31; Ephesians 4:11-16; Philippians 4:8; Colossians 2:3,8-9; 1 Timothy 1:3-7; 2 Timothy 2:15; 3:14-17; Hebrews 5:12-6:3; James 1:5; 3:17)

Why is evil present in the world?
While God will one day do away with all evil, He currently allows evil in the world - which provides mankind a choice. Satan is the source of all evil and will suffer an eternity of separation from God for his choices. (Hell was originally prepared for the devil and his demons.) Evil is present in the world because of mankind’s choice in the Garden of Eden. Because of Jesus, we have the opportunity to choose the goodness of God’s grace over evil. While God could eliminate evil immediately, He endures the grief of waiting to do so in order to give more people the opportunity to come to faith in Him. God is able to cause all things, even the evil in this world, to work together for the good of those who love Him.
(Genesis 2:17; Genesis 3:1-24; Romans 3:23; Romans 5:12; Psalm 100:5; John 3:19; Psalm 81:12; Revelation 12:7-9; Revelation 20:10; 1 Corinthians 15:56; Colossians 2:15; 1 John 2:2; 1 Timothy 2:3-4; 2 Peter 3:9; Romans 8:28-29)


How Will I Spend Eternity?
God made you to exist forever. Heaven is a perfect place, and since none of us is perfect we were all headed for an eternity of separation from God. That’s why God sent Jesus: to pay the price for our sins so that we can spend eternity with Him. What you decide about Jesus Christ in this life will determine where you will spend eternity. If you reject Him, you’ll spend it eternally separated from God in Hell. If you accept Him, you’ll spend it eternally connected with Him in Heaven. Hell is a place of separation, suffering and darkness. Heaven is a place of eternal joy in God’s presence. (Isaiah 2:4; 11:9; Matthew 16:27; 18:8-9; 19:28; 24:27,30,36,44; 25:31-46; 26:64; Mark 8:38; 9:43-48; Luke 12:40,48; 16:19-26; 17:22-37; 21:27-28; John 14:1-3; Acts 1:11; 17:31; Romans 14:10; 1 Corinthians 4:5; 15:24-28,35-58; 2 Corinthians 5:10; Philippians 3:20-21; Colossians 1:5; 3:4; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18; 5:1ff.; 2 Thessalonians 1:7ff.; 2; 1 Timothy 6:14; 2 Timothy 4:1,8; Titus 2:13; Hebrews 9:27-28; James 5:8; 2 Peter 3:7ff.; 1 John 2:28; 3:2; Jude 14; Revelation 1:18; 3:11; 20:1-22:13)

What is the church?
The Bible tells us that the church is the body of Christ in the world today. The New Testament tells us the church is a local body of baptized believers. The head of the church is Jesus Christ. The biblical purposes of the church are worship, evangelism, fellowship, discipleship and ministry to others. We state those purposes in a process in Saddleback’s Purpose Statement:

To bring people to Jesus and membership in His family, develop them to Christ-like maturity, and equip them for their ministry in the church and their life mission in the world, in order to magnify God’s name.

(Matthew 16:15-19; 18:15-20; Acts 2:41-42,47; 5:11-14; 6:3-6; 13:1-3; 14:23,27; 15:1-30; 16:5; 20:28; Romans 1:7; 1 Corinthians 1:2; 3:16; 5:4-5; 7:17; 9:13-14; 12; Ephesians 1:22-23; 2:19-22; 3:8-11,21; 5:22-32; Philippians 1:1; Colossians 1:18; 1 Timothy 2:9-14; 3:1-15; 4:14; Hebrews 11:39-40; 1 Peter 5:1-4; Revelation 2-3; 21:2-3)

What is the second coming of Jesus?
God, in His own time and in His own way, will bring the world to its appropriate end. According to His promise, Jesus Christ will return personally and visibly in glory to the earth; the dead will be raised; and Christ will judge all men in righteousness.
(Isaiah 2:4; 11:9; Matthew 16:27; 18:8-9; 19:28; 24:27,30,36,44; 25:31-46; 26:64; Mark 8:38; 9:43-48; Luke 12:40,48; 16:19-26; 17:22-37; 21:27-28; John 14:1-3; Acts 1:11; 17:31; Romans 14:10; 1 Corinthians 4:5; 15:24-28,35-58; 2 Corinthians 5:10; Philippians 3:20-21; Colossians 1:5; 3:4; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18; 5:1ff.; 2 Thessalonians 1:7ff.; 2; 1 Timothy 6:14; 2 Timothy 4:1,8; Titus 2:13; Hebrews 9:27-28; James 5:8; 2 Peter 3:7ff.; 1 John 2:28; 3:2; Jude 14; Revelation 1:18; 3:11; 20:1-22:13)
 

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Posted by oneyearandcounting (Member # 4449) on :
 
Amen hardcore great post


God bless
greg
 

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Posted by yahsway (Member # 3738) on :
 
Well, when the Pentegon bought 47,000 copies of PDL for all their clergy it threw up red flags with me.

You know, I dont know if he is part of the AC system or even the AC himself, but I do know that the AC will look beautiful, talk beautiful words, he will look like an angel of light, not some devil with horns and a pitchfork. And he will come as a man od Peace, speaking peace, thats why so many will follow after him. He will be a counterfit.

And even Jesus said that in the end days people will kill others thinking they are doing God a favor and it will probably be done in the name of peace. You either get on board or else kinda thing.

I read what Trafield posted from RW site and yes I do take issue with a few things said. I am not of OSAS belief in the sense that I believe people can be enlightened to the truth and even except Jesus for a time as their personnel savior but some can also and often have turned their backs to the doctrine once delivered to the saints and follow after every other wind of doctrine to their own destruction. Jesus said it would have been better for them if they had never believed then to believe and then turn away.

Being "set-apart" means to be "holy" being "sanctified" is a process much like in the Hebrew mindset, to be saved is "be ye being saved" There is a race we run to the finish, an endurance. Those who endure till the end shall be saved. Just because someone says "the sinners prayer" is not a guaranteeof ones salvation not a one time confession only, but a continuous life lived for Him only and a race to the finish line.

I think I mentioned this before but ill say it again. A friend of mine who lives in Orlando, FL last year her church (big-mega church, suppose to have the largest youth grp. in the US)Did the 40 day PDL along with fasting. She was so excited. She called me to tell me all about it. It was the first I had even heard of RW or the book.

She said at the end of the 40 days, each member of the church was going to sign some kinda of statement (which the way she talked sounded binding) that they were going to give above their reg. tithe, $400.00 a month for a bigger Youth building that was needed. She wanted prayer as her and her husband (who draws SS) both work picking fruit and are not making hardly any money, but they signed this form saying they would give the 400.00 needed.

I told her to be very careful. She took offense. She became very offensive with me. My heart just sank. She is a lovely person and I know the financial hardships they have, and I just wanted her to think this through carefully. I have not spoken to her since. I have e-mailed her from time to time but with no response.

She told me that her pastor loved the book and it was what he thought their purpose was, was to build this extra large building. I personally believe he used RW book for his own agenda. Im not saying this was right or wrong, but I do know how some people are treated in some assemblies if they dont pay their tithe or get on board with everything done in the assembly.

In fact, when this lady left TN to go to FL, one sister in our church said she was glad to see her go cause she did not prosper financially like she should because she did not pay her tithes. I remember something that Jesus said about offering the best seat to those who were poor and to esteem others higher than ourselves.

Anyway, just wanted to show you how one pastor was using the PDL book in his assembly.
 

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Posted by Ripp (Member # 3832) on :
 
The Church Growth Movement & Purpose Driven Church VERSUS The Bible
 

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Posted by Niedziejkore (Member # 2773) on :
 
I think the red flag should go up when you hear they use a combination of marketing, psychology and sociology.
 

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Posted by Trafield (Member # 758) on :
 
1 John 4:1-3
1Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
2By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God;
3and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.

I have read 'The Purpose Driven Life' and from what I have read of the beliefs of Rick Warren's church and the beliefs of Warren himself through his books, then I belive that he is genuine. I am using the above scripture as my basis for testing Warren's credibility.

As Christians we can, and do, debate doctrine every day...but the Bible is clear how we can test the spirits. There is a lot of real evilness and deception in the world that we can focus on. Sometimes it is the people that accuse others of leading people astray, that are actually in danger of doing the same.
 

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Posted by Ripp (Member # 3832) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Niedziejkore:
I think the red flag should go up when you hear they use a combination of marketing, psychology and sociology.

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EXACTLY!

God bless.
 

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Posted by Ripp (Member # 3832) on :
 

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Originally posted by Trafield:
1 John 4:1-3
1Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
2By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God;
3and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.

I have read 'The Purpose Driven Life' and from what I have read of the beliefs of Rick Warren's church and the beliefs of Warren himself through his books, then I belive that he is genuine. I am using the above scripture as my basis for testing Warren's credibility.

As Christians we can, and do, debate doctrine every day...but the Bible is clear how we can test the spirits. There is a lot of real evilness and deception in the world that we can focus on. Sometimes it is the people that accuse others of leading people astray, that are actually in danger of doing the same.

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12But what I do, I will also continue to do, that I may cut off the opportunity from those who desire an opportunity to be regarded just as we are in the things of which they boast. 13For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. 14And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. 15Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works. [2 Corinthians 11:12-15]

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A spirit of compromise must prevail in the church that is to experience dynamic growth. The embrace of contemporary culture and style will most assuredly set the desired mood that totally opposes the Biblical mandate to earnestly contend for the faith and separate from error. What works, what is least offensive and what is positive and uplifting is what should define the ministry, according to Warren.

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The goal of the superchurch is to draw a crowd so that the crowds will, eventually, be saved and worked into the church membership. Furthermore, the core ministry of the church allows for the abandonment of everything "traditional" that would in any way appear to be offensive to the neighborhood "seeker." Are godly pastors and believers to fashion their style of service after the comforts of the unsaved "seeker," or could it be that Romans 12:2 is at least somewhat applicable to the church today? God's Word clearly says, "And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." Rick Warren's Saddleback church growth model seems to totally contradict this portion of Scripture.

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Warren's plans for motivating the people, charting an organizational structure for ministry and developing a marketing strategy for building a superchurch are much like what one would hear in a secular management training seminar. In fact, during an intermission this was even mentioned in a conversation with corporate businessmen who were also in attendance. The same techniques that are used to build the base of support for a business can also be used to build a ministry's clientele. What is the key? One must provide a product that will meet the real or perceived needs of the consuming public. For Saddleback Community Church, that meant they had to determine via a survey the needs of the Saddleback community at large and then provide programs at the church to meet those needs. As a result of the survey, a composite "Saddleback Sam," or unsaved church seeker, was defined, and the style and programs of the church were then redefined to meet his needs. Hence, the ministries (support and special interest groups, recreational fellowships, etc.) and the style and content of the "Seeker Service" were aimed at making the typical "Saddleback Sam" feel comfortable, helped and encouraged.

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Third, Warren's supposed Biblical justification for using contemporary music is sorely deficient. Warren told his audience,
The Bible says in Psalm 40:3, "He put a new song in my mouth; many people will see this and worship Him. Then they will trust the Lord." Notice the parallel or the correlation between music, worship, and evangelism. It says, "Then they will trust the Lord." Now there's a word that I want you to circle in that sentence; it's the word N-E-W. The same old tired songs are not gonna reach anybody...but a new song says, "God is doing something new in our midst."

Dear reader, to what is the psalmist referring when he uses the term new? First of all, remember that Warren said the Bible has absolutely nothing to say about the style of music or worship, so according to his own logic, this verse cannot possibly refer to a contemporary, "new" melody or current lyrics. No, David is talking about the new song that comes forth from one of God's redeemed saints. The Holy Spirit touches the heart of the believer to respond by song in a way the unsaved can never experience, much less desire; this spiritual song is not something the unbeliever can "get into." If the Lord is to be worshipped "in spirit and in truth" (Jn. 4:24), then only those who have been washed in the Blood can truly sing this "new" song. Warren intimates that the unsaved are turned off by the "golden oldies," the "blasts from the past," as he refers to the old hymns. When a believer stops to think about it, the unbeliever's dislike for hymns is understandable. The songs of worship and praise for the Lord obviously only appeal to the spirit of the regenerated man (Rom. 8:16) because the focus is upon the Lord, not man's flesh. If believers cannot see an unreconcilable dichotomy between fleshly and spiritual music, then further study on the holiness of God is advised.

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I could go on but these are all in the links. How can anyone NOT see problems here?! This sticks out like a sore thumb to me!

Listen. When the rapture comes, a lot of us here will be gone and all that will be left is this BBS. We must be very careful of what we leave behind! If we leave behind false information NOW, what will happen to the lost THEN? There IS a one-world religion coming! Is this the one? I don't know but we better point out to people what to look for! There is going to be a lot of confusion on what to believe soon and if we can't see the truth now, many will be lost because of our inept discernment abilities. I pray that God will open all of our eyes to His truth. Time is way too short to not see these things.

God bless and stay strong.
 

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Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :
 
Hey Tracy: It is good to see you around here. I was reading your reply to Soft Touch last night and I had not had time to read this thread, so I thought of you and I chuckled to myself, because It has been so long since we disagreed on anything, that I had almost forgotten that we do disagree on somethings

This is one of those things that we definetly disagree on. I will not question whether Rick Warren believes that Jesus is his saviour, this he says he does believe and I must take him at his word, but Rick Warren's doctrine is sorely lacking and his teaching is double minded and unstable. It is a dangerous mix of New Age philosophy, modern psychology, Norman Vincent Peal type postiive thinking and Biblical scripture used without any form of contextural integrity.

If you are going to use the "touch not God's annointed" with regard to Soft Touch here then I will have to remind you that these people, know who Jesus is, call him Lord, do many wonderful and good works in HIS name, Prophesy in his name, and I do not believe that they could do these things and not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh. Still Jesus says of them and to them.... I NEVER knew you.

The demons they do believe and tremble and SATAN does come as an Angel of Light. Light Tracy... As in an angel of God.

Jesus said that the deception in the last days would be so clever, so cunning, so deceptive that ONLY the elect would escape it and escape it narrowly.

If it squirms like a snake and talks like a snake, it likely is a snake. When the serpent sought to deceive Eve, he was the most cunning creature in the Garden and he came speaking what God hath said....partly. When Eve opened her mouth and said that God hath said not to touch the tree the serpent knew that he knew that he knew that Eve did not know what God hath said, and he reared up and he showed his fangs and he struck with absolute precision and his venom brought death that passes still to this day from man to man.

When I see a man that speaks like the serpent, speaking half truths of God mixed with his own lies "you will not die" then I think serpent and when man teaches doctrines that are formed from parts of scripture taken without contextural integrity and mixed with his own philosophies, then I know that what he teaches is not of God.

Here is an example:

'Dear God, I want to know Your purpose for my life. I don't want to waste the rest of my life on the wrong things. Today I want to take the first step in preparing for eternity by getting to know You. Jesus Christ, I don't understand it all, but as much as I know how, I want to open my life to You. I ask you to come into my life and make yourself real to me. Use this series to help me know what You made me for. Thank you. Amen.'

"If you just prayed that prayer for the very first time, I congratulate you. You've just become a part of the family of God."


Is this what God hath said Tracy? Please show me this in the written word! This is not what God hath said. I could preach a sermon on the doctrinal errors in this one paragraph prayer and the statement that follows it! And you could too brother, I know for a fact you could!

Warren backs this call to prayer with this:

"Whoever accepts and trust the Son gets in on everything, life complete and forever!" [John 3:36a the Message)

Here is what God hath said:

"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." John 3:36

It is not about our accepting the Son...it is about HIS accepting us.

Proverbs 16:25 There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

You Tracy are a watcher, and you are watching for the plan that will bring peace to the middle east and the man that issue it in and deceive the Jews that he is the Messiah, and Warren is not that man, but the "plan" is as much a part of the preparation for the plan as is the threat of our security a part of the plan to make people comfortable enough with the RDF to accept the mark.

Peace must not only come to the middle east, but peace must come within the apostate church and with Islam and the church and with Islam and Judaism.

Open your eyes my beloved Brother Tracy. Make sure you don't focus so hard and so closely on the leaf that all leaves that are green look like figs or grapes. Step back from the picture a minute and look at the trees in the forest and not just the color of the leaves.


Love In Christ,
Linda
 

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Posted by Trafield (Member # 758) on :
 

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Open your eyes my beloved Brother Tracy. Make sure you don't focus so hard and so closely on the leaf that all leaves that are green look like figs or grapes. Step back from the picture a minute and look at the trees in the forest and not just the color of the leaves.

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Contemplative Worship & Prayer

Christian Mysticism: New Age spirituality cloaked in Christian terminology



This is an attempt to gather together some information to help you understand a church trend that is sweeping across the country. Our nation is filled with people that are spiritually hungry. Our churches are filled with people that are spiritually hungry. Some of them fill that hunger by digging deeply into God's Word and truly growing in knowledge of their Savior. However, others turn to alternative ways to experience God. Some of the proponents of this new way of thinking say that we have sacrificed relationship for the sake of doctrine. In order to reach the lost in this postmodern world, we must provide ways for people to feel God in a real way.

To help make this connection with God, Christians are trying Contemplative Prayer, Centering Prayer, Breath Prayers, Taizé Worship, Contemplative Worship and other things with Christian-sounding names. Whatever name it goes by (or doesn't, as it can be nameless, but the methods are there), the technique is similar. Essentially, you sing, chant, speak or "breathe" words over and over again until they "move from your head to your heart." The goal is to achieve a contemplative or meditative state. It's an emptying of yourself, presumably to let God fill you.

It may be something straight out of the Bible that you're saying, but it becomes a mantra. Your mind empties and you think about nothing. You feel relaxed and warm and connected with everything and everyone. "God" seems so close and real. You can feel the one-ness of creation, and how you are part of it and it is part of you.

It feels wonderful, but it's an illusion. Anything that empties your mind and makes you feel like you're just floating in a grand connectedness with God, is very likely NOT from the real God. He has no desire for your mind to be numb. This mind-blanking is totally different from Christian meditation. True Christian meditation is an active state, where we consciously think about God's Word. Christian prayer is an active process.

Whenever you go through any kind of method or ritual in order to experience God, you are asking for trouble. You cannot make God do anything. There is no formula to "experience" God. God is not subject to rituals. He wants you to know that He is there regardless of whether you feel Him or not.

"Meditative state" may sound good, but it is the same thing as "altered state," the goal of New Agers who wish to connect with spirit guides, wise counselors, aliens, whatever. With this altered consciousness, you can have all kinds of experiences, but a typical one is to feel like you're connecting directly to God. Only Satan allows us the illusion that if we follow a particular procedure - chanting, repetition, whatever - we can experience communion with God. That's part of what this verse means:

Matthew 6:7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.

Or, as the King James and New King James puts it:

Matthew 6:7 (NKJV) And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.

Why do pagans use "vain repetitions?" They're trying to get in touch with their gods - who are really demons. That's exactly who may answer if you get yourself into an altered state.

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"I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom; preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires; and will turn away their ears from the truth, and will turn aside to myths." (2Tim 4:1-4 NASV)


"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world. You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. They are of the world. Therefore they speak as of the world, and the world hears them. We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this you know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error." (1John 4:1-6 NKJV)


"If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you, 'A servant is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you." (John 15:18-20 NKJV)


"The world hates me because I testify of it that is works are evil" (John 7:7 NKJV).

There is a tidal wave that is sweeping over the American church in these last days prior to the new millennium. It is not an outbreak of persecution nor is it a flood of oppression directed against those who would live godly in Christ Jesus. Rather it is a novel approach to presenting the gospel that threatens to overwhelm the very foundations of the Christian faith inherited from our fathers.


It goes by several names but is commonly referred to as the "seeker-sensitive" or "user-friendly" method. Among these various approaches there are two that stand out in particular. The first of these is the Willow Creek approach known as the "seeker-sensitive" model. This is named for the Willow Creek church in the Chicago, Illinois area whose author is Bill Hybels, the pastor. The second approach is known as "the purpose-driven church" model whose developer is Rick Warren, the pastor of Saddle Back church in California. Both of these churches have experienced astounding growth over a relatively short period of time by employing their respective methodologies. As such, they have become recognized as quasi leaders in church growth among numerous pastors and leaders in the American church.


While there are notable differences between the two approaches, there are also remarkable similarities. Chief of which is their reliance on the so-called "practical, relevant" Bible message in an attempt to reach the unsaved in their local communities. The basic tenet of their philosophy is as follows:


"In order to attract our target audience (i.e. "the lost"), the church must change its approach to presenting the gospel to the world. We must take a more "needs-centered" approach to the lost. Since it is obvious that our society is overrun with problems in the family, marriages on the rocks, financial distress due to excessive credit and borrowing and spending, massive depression, stress, and other such ailments, the church must step forward and meet these needs as no doubt Jesus would do were He here today in the flesh. This can best be done by tailoring our message to the world in such a way that these "needy" unsaved people will see that the solution to their problems is already contained in the Bible. When they once see that the Bible has a great deal to say about managing your money, sets forth principles to adopt in order to have a better marriage, contains ways of managing conflict resolution and dealing with the everyday problems and stresses of life, they will marvel that they did not realize this sooner. Once this plateau is reached, their "needs" being met, they will then gain the desire to continue regularly attending the church services where these principles are taught. Once this is achieved, it is only a matter of time before they will be exposed to the gospel and then will make their way into the kingdom of God and of Christ and so become saved believers".


I believe that I have fairly stated their basic premise without any prejudice to it. In all fairness, this is a commendable attitude. I am quite certain that the majority of those who employ this approach are sincere and genuine in their desire to propagate the gospel and to reach the lost. Their sincerity is not being called into question by this article in any manner whatsoever. What is being called into question is not their sincerity but rather the methodology they are employing. One can challenge what he or she considers an unscriptural practice without calling into question the character of those who adopt or propagate this practice. Unfortunately, in today's American church, to do so automatically opens one to the charge of "no love", "intolerant", "critical", "fault-finder", "legalistic", "stone-thrower", or even worse. While this may bring a smug satisfaction from those who hurl such epithets, it does nothing to examine the validity of the arguments being set forth in opposition to their practices and doctrine.


Far too often, the American church is willing to introduce and to tolerate practices and methodologies which simply lack Scriptural support simply because they produce results. It seems as if the spirit of Machiavelli, the Italian Renaissance philosopher is alive and well in today's church. It was he who coined the expression; "the end justifies the means". According to this tenet, the Lord Jesus should have taken the devil up on his suggestion that He hurl Himself off the pinnacle of the temple in Jerusalem in Luke 4. The argument could probably have been phrased as follows:

Article continues from the link below.

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Critique of the "Seeker-Sensitive, Purpose-Driven" Church Method

God bless.
 

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Posted by Ripp (Member # 3832) on :
 
Ok, I just found the meat that I was looking for. If you can't find the truth in what I am about to quote, you might never see it. THIS IS IT!

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Bear in mind that this "user-friendly" approach has as its underlying premise that only those things that are "practical" are to be presented to the "unchurched" in an attempt to "meet their needs". It is by "meeting the unchurched at their point of need" that they are to be influenced and thereby persuaded to become a part of the "crowd" that regularly attends the weekly worship service. It is anticipated that they will then at some point give their life to Christ and so become part of the "congregation" and then eventually the "core" of the church. If this is to occur, so the premise goes, doctrinal issues are to be deliberately avoided in the sermon as they are not "relevant" to the "needs" of the unchurched and thereby reinforce the idea that the church is completely out of touch with the realities of everyday life.


While not calling into question the motives behind those who would employ this particular methodology, we nonetheless wish to expose its complete and utter fallacy. To begin with, it abysmally falls short in dealing with the basic problem confronting the human race, i.e., that man is "dead in trespasses and sins" and is:


"…darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart; and they, having become callous, have given themselves over to sensuality, for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness" (Eph 4: 18,19).


No human being descended from Adam can ever escape the force of this truth. Man does not need a few nips here, a few tucks there, a couple of bandages and a few stitches to cure his problem. He is completely and utterly ruined! Look at that description closely. His understanding, his mind is filled with darkness. He wanders about unable to see clearly his own true condition by nature. He knows not where he goes. In addition, he is "alienated" from the life of God and has lost all true communion and fellowship with the living God. As a result he spends himself trying to fill a great void within him that can seemingly never be filled. He instinctively senses the fleeting vanity of this life, but sees no answer to this dilemma. Added to this, he is ignorant. O, he may be skilled in the sciences and wise in technological innovation but he is ignorant of the most essential truths. He is ignorant of the true nature of the God with whom he must deal. He is ignorant of the fact that there is enmity between this God and himself. He is oblivious to the fact that he lies under the judgment of this God and is thereby exposed to His wrath. He is ignorant of his own utter helplessness to deliver himself from this wrath. He knows not that he must stand before a throne of pristine purity and be judged by this God against whom he has so grievously sinned and transgressed. He comprehends not that he has absolutely no righteousness of his own that he can produce which will satisfy the claims of Divine justice. He therefore recognizes not the extreme peril he is in. In short, far from his ignorance being "bliss", his ignorance left unhealed will in the end destroy him. Lastly, his heart is harder than stone. Unresponsive, unyielding, unimpressionable, impervious, he is unmoved by the blows of Providence that fall upon his life nor is he melted by the goodness of the Creator who gives him the very breath that is in his nostrils. This is the dire picture of the human race that is painted by the apostle.


Now, we ask you in all sincerity, of what use is it to inform a man of the "practical, relevant" teachings of the Bible to only leave him ignorant of his true condition? What he needs is not to learn how to apply Bible principles of finance nor is it to learn how to cope with stress or some others of life’s problems. No, what he needs is to be informed of the grave danger he is in and how he may be delivered from this wrath that he lies exposed to!


Where Paul the apostle could solemnly state,


"Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men…" (2Cor 5:11),

those who rashly deign to improve on the apostle’s approach would give them biblical principles of balancing their checkbooks! What kind of madness is this that has entered the house of God! Is this what the glorious gospel of the grace of God in Christ has been reduced to, a set of accounting steps! Or even worse, a self-help seminar on handling a bad temper! God help us if it is, yet, an exponentially increasing number of American churches are adopting this novel approach Sunday after Sunday as it spreads through our land like a virulent epidemic.

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Critique of the "Seeker-Sensitive, Purpose-Driven" Church Method

AMEN AND AMEN!!! THE TRUTH!

God bless and stay strong.
 

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Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on :
 
Excellent Research Brother Ripp!!! AMEN!

I Pray that this will reach deep into the hearts of all brothers and sisters who read this thread! These teachings of Rick Warren and others are not only DANGEROUS but DEADLY!

We all need to Wake Up and understand what is happening!
 

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Posted by Niedziejkore (Member # 2773) on :
 
well, if not dangerous and deadly, it's at least misleading.
 

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Posted by Ripp (Member # 3832) on :
 

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"For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, that the cross of Christ should not be made void. For the word of the cross is to those who are perishing foolishness, but to us who are being saved, it is the power of God" (1Cor 1:17-18 NASV).


Do not miss what Paul is saying here. The gospel is counted as foolishness by an unbelieving world. It makes absolutely no sense to them for the very reason that it does not seem reasonable! First, it tells him that he is sinful and faces a judgment which he cannot escape. This makes him uncomfortable and so must be put out of his mind as quickly as possible. Second, it goes on to tell him that he possesses absolutely no righteousness of his own nor could he ever secure any by his own deeds. This is completely unacceptable to the unregenerate man who always views himself as morally better than the "next" man. Sure he has some flaws, but nothing all that serious or what cannot be atoned for by a few "good" deeds of his own making. So he thinks within himself. Thirdly, it tells him that only in Christ is there a righteousness that will shield him from this judgment. Maybe, maybe not, he reasons. Either way he fancies himself ready to meet it if push comes to shove as he isn’t really as bad as this message makes him out to be. Fourthly this righteousness was obtained by the shedding of Christ’s blood as He hung upon a cross on the hill called Calvary. That seems awfully gory. God couldn’t be all that severe. Fifthly, this righteousness will be credited to all those who have faith in this Blessed Person who is none less than the Son of God. This is utter nonsense as how could someone’s righteousness be credited to another individual. And thus you have the gospel scorned by the mass of humanity.


But there is also something else very important in what Paul states in the above quoted Scripture. He is saying that "the gospel" and "the word of the cross" are the same thing! In other words, one cannot preach "the gospel" without preaching "the cross" and according to Paul’s theology, "the word of the cross" "is the power of God unto salvation" (Romans 1:16). If men are to be saved from the wrath of God therefore, it must be by the preaching of the word of the cross. Now, I ask the reader in all sincerity, what does "Five Steps to Managing your Finances" have in common with "the word of the cross"? How about "Communicating with Your Children"? Or perhaps "Dealing with Stress"? The answer, Nothing! Yet unbelievably, countless church leaders can unashamedly promote this novel approach to converting sinners as innovative and effective and foist it upon a gullible congregation as such. Effective in doing what, should be the question. There is not even the mention of the cross of Christ much less the person of Christ in all of this! If this is "the gospel" and "the word of the cross" as presented by the modern American church, then God have mercy on this nation for He may have already given it over to a powerful delusion (2 Thes 2:11).

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Critique of the "Seeker-Sensitive, Purpose-Driven" Church Method

That last sentence is very profound and I was thinking the same thing today. What if we are just now beginning to understand and see signs of this powerful delusion?

God bless.
 

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Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on :
 
Excellent Research Brother Ripp!


Is anyone else out there reading this? Do you see what's happening?
 

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Posted by Ripp (Member # 3832) on :
 
I'm sorry for the deluge of info guys but this website is packed full of insight and the Truth must be told. Read this part, it hits the nail right on the head:

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The other things that may be said in rebuttal to the claims of the adherents to this method that the "practical" messages will lure in the "unchurched" and then they will eventually hear the gospel and get saved is, "What gospel", and "Just when or where are these people supposed to hear this gospel"? We have already seen that without "the word of the cross" there simply is no gospel being preached no matter what the proponents of this system may claim. As far as when or where they are supposed to encounter the gospel it certainly will not take place on a Sunday morning as long as the focus is on the "practical" or "relevant". According to Romans 10, one has to hear the gospel before he or she can become saved. No "word of the cross" - no "gospel", so just when do they supposedly "get saved"?


But perhaps you might be hesitant and say, "But my church has adopted this model and we haven’t gone so far as to introduce secular music and play videos of secular movies in our Sunday services". My response, "Just wait and see. They will be there before too long." Once pragmatism becomes the chief concern of the church instead of faithfully proclaiming the truth entrusted to it by the Lord, it will completely evolve into an organization which will grow increasingly tolerant of any deviant or novel practice as long as it serves to produce the desired ends. Once the floodgates are opened it is too late to hold back the tidal surge of the overwhelming flood. The only way such a church can be spared from completely apostatizing is to thoroughly purge itself of this approach altogether and return to the ancient paths (Jer 6:16), something easier said than done.

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Critique of the "Seeker-Sensitive, Purpose-Driven" Church Method

This is why it's SO dangerous. And this PDC stuff is spreading like a cancer guys. Is anyone getting this yet? Can you connect the dots yet?

God bless.
 

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Posted by Ripp (Member # 3832) on :
 
Some more goodies:

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Let this charge should cause some of the more simple minded and naïve to reel with astonishment, the writer begs leave for them to consider the following. The gospel is the word of life. It is the ONLY instrument that the church has with which to raise men from their graves of sin and transgression into newness of life. It is the ONLY means whereby guilty sinners exposed to the wrath of God can be reconciled and brought into the Divine favor. It is the ONLY means whereby the slaves of Satan can be set free into the liberty of the sons of God. It is the ONLY means whereby men can be delivered from the kingdom of darkness and translated into the kingdom of light. It is the ONLY true light that shines in the midst of a world filled with darkness and ignorance of the true God. Therefore, it is essential that it be defended and protected against corruption by those entrusted with the solemn task of declaring it before the sons of men. This is precisely what Paul had in mind when he stated:


"…according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted" (1Tim 1:11 NASV)


And


"…knowing that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel." (Phil 1:16 NASV).


The apostle knew that the gospel had been entrusted to him by his Master and that part of his stewardship included defending it from the assaults of unprincipled men who were doing the bidding of the devil. This often brought him into fierce conflict with those who sought to corrupt it either by adding to it or subtracting from it. This explains the harsh tone he so often seems to exhibit in many of his epistles towards those who sought to pervert it in any fashion. He knew behind it all, lay the work of the serpent of old, the ancient deceiver, the devil himself. As it was truly a matter of life and death, we see him passing on this sense of solemn earnestness to his young protégé in the faith, Timothy:


"O Timothy, guard that which has been entrusted to you (the gospel, note mine), avoiding worldly and empty chatter and the opposing arguments of what is falsely called ‘knowledge’ – which some have professed and thus gone astray from the faith" (1Tim 6:20-21 NASV)


And


(2Tim 1:14 NASV). "Guard through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us, the treasure which has been entrusted to you."


Not only do we see Paul exhorting Timothy in this regard but we also see Jude exhorting his readers to do the very same thing:


"Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith (the system of doctrinal truth – note mine) which was once for all delivered to the saints."(Jude: 3 NASV).

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Notice that these early ministers of the gospel not only expected an assault to be made upon the truth of the gospel, but that they considered it as their God-given responsibility to defend it even if it meant risking their lives and reputations to do so. As vigilant soldiers of their King, they were constantly on guard for any sign of the enemy’s activities and met each incursion of his with a clear rebuttal and refutation of his lies so as to preserve pure their message.

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Now, the devil has many schemes or devices, chief of which is to corrupt the glorious gospel of Christ. He has never ceased to assault this eternal gospel in the attempt to pervert, distort, dilute, twist, and render it ineffectual and powerless. He must somehow rob it of its "power unto salvation", as it is its truth that threatens his kingdom. But he must do so in as subtle and sly a manner as possible. He must do it in such a way so as to avoid discovery of his machinations. Diabolically cunning as he is, he innately realizes that his nefarious schemes are far more likely to ensnare and deceive if he can wrap them in a facade of truth. An outright, bald-faced lie is far too easy to detect. Hence, enter the subtle, but deadly counterfeit. Error disguised as closely as possible to resemble the truth.

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Critique of the "Seeker-Sensitive, Purpose-Driven" Church Method

Thing sure have changed.
 

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Posted by Ripp (Member # 3832) on :
 

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"Son of man, I have appointed you a watchman to the house of Israel; whenever you hear a word from My mouth, warn them from Me. When I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die’; and you do not warn him or speak out to warn the wicked from his wicked way that he may live, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity , but his blood I will require at your hand… Again, when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and I place an obstacle before him, he shall die; since you have not warned him, he shall die in his sin, and his righteous deeds which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood I will require at your hand". (Ezek 3:17-18, 20 NASV).


How this particular "user-friendly" model which deliberately focuses on the "relevant, practical" sermon, can lay claim to be obedient to this portion of the Scripture I must admit is beyond me. Its entire approach is built around the premise of avoiding offense to its hearers. What kind of watchmen can he then be who will not warn his charges of the grave danger they are in and instead tells them how to better deal with stress or as is the case with some of these churches who have gone even further down this slippery slope, how to have a better love life? Imagine this, lost and perishing sinners exposed to the wrath of God completely devoid of any righteousness of their own, dropping into a "Christian" worship service only to hear how to improve their conjugal relations with each other! Is this what the noble calling of the prophet of God has degenerated into? What could make the devil any happier than this? Oh, where has the discernment of those who would condone such soul-damning practices as this gone?


One thing is absolutely certain, these men who would employ such wicked practices have absolutely nothing in common with Paul when he could boldly assert before the elders of Ephesus on the day that he took his leave from them:


Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men. For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God." (Acts 20:26-27 NKJV).

It is obvious that the great apostle had the words of Ezekiel evermore before his eyes as he went about fulfilling his ministry and declaring his gospel to the world of that day. He understood that their blood would be required at his hand should he fail to warn them of their peril. The true servant of Christ, who genuinely has the welfare of his listeners at heart, will love them enough to tell them the painful truth even if it brings shame and reproach upon him in the process. This is one of the characteristics that marked him as a true servant of Christ. Those who fail to do this can in no manner whatsoever be regarded as true servants of Christ and therefore should be regarded as the servants of antichrist instead. Let those who would scoff at this then do so at their own risk. We will take our stand with the apostle let them carp all they please.

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Critique of the "Seeker-Sensitive, Purpose-Driven" Church Method

Well, that pretty much sums it up for me. Pretty clear...

God bless.
 

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Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on :
 
Here's another very good article regarding Warren's New Style of Church and PDL. It also talks about the PEACE plan at the end:

http://www.twincityfellowship.com/cic/articles/issue80.htm

The Gospel: A Method or a Message?
How the Purpose Driven Life Obscures the Gospel
 

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Posted by bygrace (Member # 4556) on :
 
I am so glad to see that this is being brought to light by the discerned. I had a bad feeling about the book the moment our church announced they were going to do the Purpose Driven thing. I read only 1 page and put it away. So many are still deceived by the Purpose Driven Propaganda.
 

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Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on :
 

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Originally posted by bygrace:
I am so glad to see that this is being brought to light by the discerned. I had a bad feeling about the book the moment our church announced they were going to do the Purpose Driven thing. I read only 1 page and put it away. So many are still deceived by the Purpose Driven Propaganda.

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PRAISE GOD for your open eyes!

Did you try to tell your pastor or elders of your concerns? I know I did... I even printed out several articles (I wish I'd have had some of the one's Ripps been posting - at that time!). Unfortunately, I never heard rather they understood the True Dangers in this or not. So far, they haven't done the 40 days thing (as far as I know), but they also did not tell the young adults they gave the PDL book to about the concerns I brought up
 

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Posted by bygrace (Member # 4556) on :
 
The purpose Driven campaign was well over one year ago, I have not seen too much regarding it since. I think maybe the Pastor didn't really agree? I'm not sure. he did use KJV in place of the other versions in the book. I know that they are doing the SIGNING OF COVENENTS which I am not too thrilled about though. When I first raised the questions, I felt that some people (my friends) thought it not necessary to debate the issue. They see it as having "some" positive therefore throwing out the "negative". I have not signed any church covenents, don't intend to. No, I have not approached the Pastor. He has not taught anymore of the Purpose driven material. The only thing I know of is the classes that are encouraged where you sign the covenents. I'm Still investigating that.
 

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Posted by Ripp (Member # 3832) on :
 
Do the following scenarios sound familiar in YOUR church?

"The pastor is preaching differently. He now preaches 'sermon series'. And the topics for the next two to three months are printed on a card and mailed to my house. The topics he's using are from life experiences, and we rarely use our Bibles anymore. We're not even encouraged to bring our Bibles. It's like our church changed from 'preaching from the Bible' to telling life stories and finding paraphrased scripture to fit the story."

"We don't have an 'altar call' anymore. People who want to get saved just fill out a card, or prayer is offered, but the pastor says 'no one wants to embarrass you or put you on the spot, so you don't need to come down for prayer if you're embarrassed to do so'. Jesus says in Luke 12:8 that 'whoever confesses Him before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God'. And isn't it biblical that people get prayed for? What's going on?"

"When was the last time we had communion as a church body? Since when can't we have communion on Sunday morning anymore? If someone gets offended by the remembrance of JESUS (Luke 22:19), are we supposed to stop doing it to make them feel 'comfortable'?"

The Purpose-Driven Church (PDC) curriculum and book were written by a Southern Baptist named Rick Warren. He is the senior pastor of Saddleback Valley Community Church in Lake Forest, CA. Included in the book are very detailed, step-by-step instructions on how to run the Sunday morning service. It is amazing how the PDC affects the Sunday morning service! There are to be no silences in the service. Everything has to be programmed beforehand so there are no surprises. So there is no place for God. The 'audience' is not encouraged to seek God in the Sunday morning service. God is put in a box for an hour and a half while man 'draws people to God'.

In the beginning, the PDC was created to bring unchurched people into the church, get them saved, and disciple them with the doctrine of the day. The major flaw with that thinking is REMOVING THE HOLY SPIRIT from the equation. Because the Holy Spirit is not a part in bringing people to God (bridge events and 'comfortable' services are supposed to take care of that), the Spirit of God is subdued in churches that are 'Purpose-Driven'.

According to Mr. Warren, 'There is no such thing as Christian music. There are only Christian lyrics.' (Purpose Driven Church pg. 282). Shouldn't the Spirit of God be behind Christian music and lyrics? The PDC book does not refer to the power of the Holy Spirit until the end, seemingly as an afterthought.

One way of identifying a PDC is the jargon and acronyms. Here are a few:
Core Meetings, S.A.L.T. Meetings (Salt and Light Together), Bridge Events, BASE Classes (101, 201, 301, 401), baseball diamond classes, 'Our Target', Life Development Institute, Seeker Services, Community/Crowd/Congregation/Committed/Core illustration, 'Growth Without Compromising Your Message & Mission', S.H.A.P.E. (Spiritual gifts, Heart (Motivation), Abilities, Personality, Experiences), C.L.A.S.S. (Christian Life and Service Seminars).

If your church is PDC, your pastor has access to (and is probably using) the sermons and outlines from Saddleback Church, and is using a paraphrased Bible for scriptural quotes. The sermons and outlines are very much the same as the one you heard last Sunday (and the Sunday before) -- usually with points that use the same first letter or are in the form of an acrostic. They are basically assembly-line sermon series. Your pastor did not get these sermons from the Holy Spirit through prayer and fasting! Also included are life-stories, skits, and video clips (perhaps some of them inappropriate to be seen by children).

The bridge events (reaching out to the community) are non-events - inoffensive and innocuous. Jesus and God are usually absent, in Name and in Spirit. Everything is organized and controlled by the church staff to make everyone feel comfortable, and to make the attenders feel 'happy'.

In Romans 8:8, Paul says, "So then those who are living the life of the flesh, catering to the appetites and impulses of their carnal nature, cannot please or satisfy God, or be acceptable to Him." (The Amplified Bible) Why would we want to please man when God is the One we serve and love?!


Hebrews 5:13-14 "For everyone who continues to feed on milk is obviously inexperienced and unskilled in the doctrine of righteousness, for he is a mere infant, But solid food is for full-grown men, for those whose senses and mental faculties are trained by practice to discriminate and distinguish between what is morally good and noble and what is evil and contrary either to divine or human law." (The Amplified Bible)

The PDC is designed to keep you wanting the milk, not the meat, of the Word of God. If you want anything more from the teaching in your church, you will be labeled a complainer, a person who is unwilling to help the new Christians who are being spoon-fed.

2 Timothy 4:3-4 says "For the time is coming when people will not tolerate sound and wholesome instruction, but, having ears itching for something pleasing and gratifying, they will gather to themselves one teacher after another to a considerable number, chosen to satisfy their own liking and to foster the errors they hold, And will turn aside from hearing the truth and wander off into myths and man-made fictions." (The Amplified Bible)

Unfortunately some have chosen to use another way to 'reach people for Christ', with distortions, deceptions, and pride. We don't need man-made programs to help people know they need God. God has already outlined that for us in His Word. There is too much sin, flesh, and garbage between man and God. But we humans, in our infinite wisdom, bombard them even more garbage. Promises to take care of their 'felt-needs', promises of 'no-cost Christianity'. When all they need is JESUS to pull them out of their sin and show them the Way to God. In John 14:6 Jesus says, "I am the WAY and the TRUTH, and the LIFE; no one comes to the Father except through Me." If we truly believe that, then we must live it. Let's always keep our focus on what is true, and we will only find that in the Word of God.

NO-COST CHRISTIANITY?
'No-cost Christianity' is not an option. In the Ministry 301 class, the way a person is supposed to find his spiritual gifts is to fill out a personality profile, find his S.H.A.P.E., and then go into the ministry. But in 2 Corinthians 12:9 the Lord told Paul "My strength is made perfect in WEAKNESS". God does not glory in our strengths. He glories in our WEAKNESSES, our self-denial (take up My cross and follow me), our willingness to put away human desires and follow Jesus (humbleness). Worldly and business values teach us to find our strengths and use them to make our mark in this world. But the Bible teaches the exact opposite! Do you know of any time your pastor has taught (on a Sunday morning) that we as Christians must allow God to work through our weaknesses, not our strengths and egos? Most likely not! That is a very unpopular teaching, but it is a very fundamental instruction from the Bible. There is a cost for following JESUS. The cost is completely turning away from SIN, the cost is denying our own desires and following the Word of God, not a compilation of stories to make us feel good. This teaching dulls our spirits, keeps us from seeing the real truth. It may feel good for a time, but in the end it is not satisfying.

God is wanting His people to stand up for His righteousness, not hide under a cloak of 'niceness' and 'feel-good platitudes'. If we truly want others to know God, we must have the BOLDNESS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT to show them who is God.

Read these articles for more information:
The Transforming Church
Church Growth Movement
Market-Driven Church
Analysis of Purpose-Driven Church Growth Strategy (page down a couple of times to see the article)

NEW AGE WE BUILD PEOPLE
Be careful of the material you are being taught in your church through the PDC curriculum. It is possible NEW AGE spirituality is the basis for some of the classes and sermons.

This article will give you more in-depth information NEW AGE CONNECTIONS

WE BUILD PEOPLE
WE BUILD PEOPLE strategy is a Rick Warren-endorsed adaptation of PDC, implemented by the Assemblies of God.

Purpose-Driven® Church
 

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Posted by Ripp (Member # 3832) on :
 
The Lukewarm Church

14"And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write,
"These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God: 15"I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot . I could wish you were cold or hot. 16So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth. 17Because you say, "I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing'--and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked -- 18I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see. 19As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent. 20Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. 21To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. [Revelation 3:14-21]
 

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Posted by Ripp (Member # 3832) on :
 
14Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? 15And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? 16And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said:
"I will dwell in them
And walk among them.
I will be their God,
And they shall be My people."

17Therefore
"Come out from among them
And be separate, says the Lord.
Do not touch what is unclean,
And I will receive you."
18"I will be a Father to you,
And you shall be My sons and daughters,
Says the LORD Almighty." [2 Corinthians 6:14-18]
 

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Posted by bygrace (Member # 4556) on :
 
Thanks Ripp for that information, I'll be reading more on this. Yes, they have the 101,201,301,401..base type classes. There are Sermon series. However the Pastor is still using the KJV in all sermons. I did notice the "we don't want you to feel embarrased" line in one of the alter calls. There is still much encouragement to come forward, but I thought that it was strange, when nobody did...he said with all heads down, he asked the ones who were wanting to come down the aisle to raise their hands...etc. We actually have started a new service that is held at the same time as ours in the other "old auditorium" that is much "louder" or "wilder" as some may say. They hear the same sermon via a large screen but the song service is different. I didn't quite know what to make of that either. I mean, why is it that everyone cannot worship together in the same place? There are many good things going on there and I personally have been set free from Religion...unto a greater understanding of my salvation through fellowship there in the past 4 years. However, so many things have changed. I guess I was just praying that the PDL stuff would have just disappeared/and thought that it had. Now after reading some of the info you have presented I am questioning again. Maybe the pastor IS still using it. Thanks again Ripp, bygrace
 

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Posted by danny458 (Member # 4378) on :
 

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Spiritual Lostness, Lack of Godly Leaders, Poverty, Disease, and Lack of Education

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Originally posted by danny458:

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Spiritual Lostness, Lack of Godly Leaders, Poverty, Disease, and Lack of Education

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Its pretty obvious most of you here don't like Rick Warren's solution to these 5 big problems... anyone know of any effective alternate plans to address these issues?

I've been in Africa since the beginning of the year and of course I can't judge the work missionaries have done in regards to the first two problems... but I can say that in regards to the last 3 issues (poverty, disease, education), the strong evangelical missionary presense here has done almost nothing to ease these problems in any wide scale way. Ironically, the most humanitarian work appears (just my observation) to be being accomplished by the UN, the Catholic Church, the EU, and Islam... in that order... 4 of the big 'End Times Enemies' according to many here. Its easy to ignore these problems since 'they are not ours'... I commend Rick Warren for focusing on these issues.

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Well, that would be all fine and dandy if they weren't replacing the Gospel with it. This is being taught INSTEAD of the Word, salvation and repentance. Surely you don't agree with that...right?

God bless.

P.S. It's not just Rick Warren. There are many other false teachings going on. Nobody is judging Rick Warren, but his teachings. His teachings are faulty and leave out the main points of the Word such as salvation and repentance.

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Its easy to ignore these problems since 'they are not ours'... I commend Rick Warren for focusing on these issues.

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That's just plain scary. Do you truly mean this??
 

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Posted by danny458 (Member # 4378) on :
 

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Well, that would be all fine and dandy if they weren't replacing the Gospel with it. This is being taught INSTEAD of the Word, salvation and repentance. Surely you don't agree with that...right?

God bless.

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Its easy to ignore these problems since 'they are not ours'... I commend Rick Warren for focusing on these issues.
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That's just plain scary. Do you truly mean this??

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I don't think that easing the suffering of people is a bad thing.

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Even if the gospel isn't included.

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I don't think its bad that the UN, the EU, the Catholic Church, or even Islam gives food to the hungry.

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The fact that they are giving food to the poor and earning good will with the people should motivate evangelical churches to give more humanitaian aid I would think if they want the message accepted.

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If you were hungary literally all the time, where would you go?

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What was scary about my quote?

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Rick Warren has acknowledged some obvious needs in the world and challenged Christians to take action.

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Feeding the poor and helping the sick is now being twisted as an 'endtimes watchout here comes the antichrist' issue?

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That's just too absurd for me.

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People are starving!!!!!!

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Yes, knock his theology all you want, but come on people are dying preventable deaths everyday

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but like I said, its easier to turn your head the other way.

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For you maybe, I refuse to turn from God's Truth.

God bless.
 

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Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on :
 
Danny, I totally understand your compassion and concern for those who are poor and starving. But concerning this P.E.A.C.E. Plan, Jesus told us that the poor would always be with us. That says to me that this problem Will Not be SOLVED until after HE returns.

Also, When Jesus FED the multitudes (on both occassions), when was it HE gave them this food? It was AFTER He gave them God's Word!

You say people are dying... the Bible says People apart from Christ are already Dead. Brother Ripp is right on! First let's give them The Full Gospel Truth so they might LIVE and then we can Feed them and Cloth them.
 

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Posted by danny458 (Member # 4378) on :
 

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I agree, but to give someone a Band-Aid when they need a heart transplant defeats God's purpose. If you are not leading people to Jesus, what difference does it make?

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This concerns me. Have you accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior? Have you repented of your sins? The Gospel MUST be included in EVERYTHING WE DO! PERIOD!

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The primary message that Christians need to spread is that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, died on the cross for our sins, and was ressurected and is now in Heaven with our God. He is our Lord and Savior and we must all repent. PERIOD! If you DO NOT preach this message, everything else is useless. What difference does a bowl of soup make to someone that is going to spend eternity in hell? If you don't back up gererosity with the Word, it's tragic. Read your Bible, it's clear what is to be taught.

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A band-aid can keep a person physically alive long enough to get them to the hospital to get their heart transplant.

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I've answered this before on other threads for you Ripp. Yes I have accepted Jesus. Over 10 years now... The gospel is not included in UN food programs, should those be cut?

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Maybe we have a different Bible...

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If you were PHYSICALLY hungry all the time, would you go to a church or a UN food distribution center. Try hard to understand what others are going through. Giving someone a gospel tract or saying "Jesus loves you" is rarely the most effective way to share the gospel. But its a simple method that makes many Christians feel good about themself. "I've been sharing the gospel! I've been handing out tracts!"

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The Bible is truth, but it isn't the only truth...

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But apparently if they're not going to be saved then who cares?

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Yes I have accepted Jesus.

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Even if the gospel isn't included.

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I think you would be wise to spend some time with suffering people. And I don't mean going to a soup kitchen and handing out tracts.... Really get involved in the lives of suffering people... maybe your heart could soften towards the physical realities people go through. Showing God's Love in practical ways can make a far bigger impression than a "God loves you." I will pray for you.

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This statement is useless to me. It just shows your ignorance.

I see suffering every day. People are running around lost with no hope. People are going to hell because they don't know Jesus as their Savior. I do as I am called to do. People must be healed by accepting Jesus Christ. The people that don't know Jesus Christ are already dead. Maybe one day you will understand that.

I have no problem with feeding the hungry. I do have a problem with 'preachers' NOT spreading the Gospel to the world. Got it?

God bless.
 

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Posted by Ripp (Member # 3832) on :
 

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Originally posted by Gramajo320:
Yes Jesus did say that the poor will always be with us - that is true. Yes the word of the gospel needs to be preached. I do have one question though don't you think that when a person is so down and out and terribly hungry that they would be more likely to clearly hear the words of the gospel rather than focusing their very painful pangs of hunger and thirst? There is nothing wrong with feeding them and preaching the word of the gospel at the same time! Yes we are to help clothe them also and if they are thirsty we are to give them drinks of water. We are also to treat them with respect, compassion, and empathy in doing the Lord's work!


In Christ's love,
Gramajo320

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Excellent point. Why is it that when you want to mention Jesus Christ you are immediately labeled as intolerant and hateful?

Give someone a bowl of soup and you're a hero. Give someone a bowl of soup and talk to them about Jesus and all of a sudden the ACLU is knocking at your door. This is a sick, sick world. This kind of seeker-sensative junk is exactly what we are too look out for. God's said it would happen, and it has.

"Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish, he eats for a lifetime."

That's no different!

"Give a man a bowl of soup, he eats for a day. Lead a man to Jesus and he eats for eternity!"

Cmon people, WAKE UP!

God bless.
 

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Posted by Ripp (Member # 3832) on :
 
Deb wrote:

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You say people are dying... the Bible says People apart from Christ are already Dead.

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18For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit , [1 Peter 3:18]

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3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. 5But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry. [2 Timothy 4:3-5]

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Can it get ANY clearer than this?! WE HAVE BEEN WARNED! If you fail to heed this warning, there are no second chances. Get right now!

God bless.
 

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Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on :
 

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Originally posted by danny458:

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(Brother Ripp here) The primary message that Christians need to spread is that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, died on the cross for our sins, and was ressurected and is now in Heaven with our God. He is our Lord and Savior and we must all repent. PERIOD! If you DO NOT preach this message, everything else is useless. What difference does a bowl of soup make to someone that is going to spend eternity in hell? If you don't back up gererosity with the Word, it's tragic. Read your Bible, it's clear what is to be taught.

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Maybe we have a different Bible... Mine Says in Matthew 25:
[i]32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. 34 Then the King will say to those at his right hand, 'Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink,

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If you don't back up gererosity with the Word, it's tragic.

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Originally posted by Gramajo320:
I do have one question though don't you think that when a person is so down and out and terribly hungry that they would be more likely to clearly hear the words of the gospel rather than focusing their very painful pangs of hunger and thirst? There is nothing wrong with feeding them and preaching the word of the gospel at the same time!

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Originally posted by danny458:
The gospel is not included in UN food programs, should those be cut?

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This is about the Lack of Full Gospel message in a professing Christian Leaders doctrine, not the UN. The UN is of The World. The World does not Preach Christ and Him Crucified.

This is part of what makes it all so deceptive (IMHO). The World shows compassion and cares for the homeless, sick, etc... But they Don't offer the Bread of LIFE which is Jesus! Should they stop caring for people, no. But now we have a group who wants to do the same thing the UN is doing, but preaching an incomplete (which makes it false) gospel. Both of these will land these poor souls into eternal hell.

If you don't Preach the full council on Sin and Reconcillation through the sacrifice Jesus made on behalf of our sins, then how can anyone come to a full saving knowledge of Jesus? One has to recognize one's self as a hopless sinner, unable to save one's self or be 'righteous' enough to enter God's Kingdom before they can fully realize what Jesus Did for them! One has to recognize WHO Jesus truly was/is... God who came in the Flesh to be a perfect sinless sacrifice for all who would BELEIVE (Have Faith) in HIM and recieve HIS Righteousness and life in exchange for their own.
 

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Posted by Ripp (Member # 3832) on :
 
Thank you Deb. I make a mess sometimes, I know. Still working on the patience thing. I just don't see a lot of time left. People need to wake up to the Truth NOW.

God bless.
 

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Posted by Ripp (Member # 3832) on :
 
I want to contrast the PDC movement with a Biblical event. Let's start with some practices of the PDC movement and one's like it.

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Man-centered philosophy: Examples of this philosophy abound throughout the book. His aim is obviously to please men. Consider Rick Warren's own words:

Figure out what mood you want your service to project, and then create it. (p. 264); We start positive and end positive. (p. 271); We use humor in our services ... it is not a sin to help people feel good. (p. 272); Cultivate an informal, relaxed, and friendly atmosphere. (p. 272); We made a strategic decision to stop singing hymns in our seeker services. (p. 285); We have attracted thousands more because of our music. (p. 285); Saddleback now has a complete pop/rock orchestra. (p. 290); Use more performed music than congregational singing ... (p. 291) (emphasis on entertainment); The ground we have in common with unbelievers is not the Bible , but our common needs, hurts, and interests as human beings. You cannot start with a text ... (p. 295); Make your members feel special ... they need to feel special. (p. 320,323)

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Warren spent twelve weeks going door to door and surveying the "needs" of the people (p. 139). Therefore, he offers what he calls a "full menu" of support groups for empty nesters, divorced couples, grief recovery, etc. In other words, offer the community/consumer what they want, and they will come. Perhaps the title "Market Driven Church" would suffice as well as "Purpose Driven Church." While he SAYS he is not "pandering to consumerism" (p. 200), his own words seem to contradict that. He states that church, in order to be successful, must target its audience, and then appeal to that audience.

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1 Now when the people saw that Moses delayed coming down from the mountain, the people gathered together to Aaron, and said to him, "Come, make us gods that shall go before us ; for as for this Moses, the man who brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we do not know what has become of him."
2And Aaron said to them, "Break off the golden earrings which are in the ears of your wives, your sons, and your daughters, and bring them to me." 3So all the people broke off the golden earrings which were in their ears, and brought them to Aaron. 4And he received the gold from their hand, and he fashioned it with an engraving tool, and made a molded calf.

Then they said, "This is your god, O Israel, that brought you out of the land of Egypt!"

5So when Aaron saw it, he built an altar before it. And Aaron made a proclamation and said, "Tomorrow is a feast to the LORD." 6Then they rose early on the next day, offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings; and the people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.

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7And the LORD said to Moses, "Go, get down! For your people whom you brought out of the land of Egypt have corrupted themselves . 8They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them. They have made themselves a molded calf, and worshiped it and sacrificed to it, and said, "This is your god, O Israel, that brought you out of the land of Egypt!"' 9And the LORD said to Moses, "I have seen this people, and indeed it is a stiff-necked people! 10Now therefore, let Me alone, that My wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them. And I will make of you a great nation."

11Then Moses pleaded with the LORD his God, and said: "LORD, why does Your wrath burn hot against Your people whom You have brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? 12Why should the Egyptians speak, and say, "He brought them out to harm them, to kill them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth'? Turn from Your fierce wrath, and relent from this harm to Your people. 13Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants, to whom You swore by Your own self, and said to them, "I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven; and all this land that I have spoken of I give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever."'[a] 14So the LORD relented from the harm which He said He would do to His people.

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19So it was, as soon as he came near the camp, that he saw the calf and the dancing. So Moses' anger became hot, and he cast the tablets out of his hands and broke them at the foot of the mountain. 20Then he took the calf which they had made, burned it in the fire, and ground it to powder; and he scattered it on the water and made the children of Israel drink it. 21And Moses said to Aaron, "What did this people do to you that you have brought so great a sin upon them?"

22So Aaron said, "Do not let the anger of my lord become hot. You know the people, that they are set on evil. 23For they said to me, "Make us gods that shall go before us; as for this Moses, the man who brought us out of the land of Egypt, we do not know what has become of him.' 24And I said to them, "Whoever has any gold, let them break it off.' So they gave it to me, and I cast it into the fire, and this calf came out."

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25Now when Moses saw that the people were unrestrained (for Aaron had not restrained them, to their shame among their enemies), 26then Moses stood in the entrance of the camp, and said, "Whoever is on the LORD's side--come to me!" And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together to him. 27And he said to them, "Thus says the LORD God of Israel: "Let every man put his sword on his side, and go in and out from entrance to entrance throughout the camp, and let every man kill his brother, every man his companion, and every man his neighbor."' 28So the sons of Levi did according to the word of Moses. And about three thousand men of the people fell that day. 29Then Moses said, "Consecrate yourselves today to the LORD, that He may bestow on you a blessing this day, for every man has opposed his son and his brother."

30Now it came to pass on the next day that Moses said to the people, "You have committed a great sin. So now I will go up to the LORD; perhaps I can make atonement for your sin." 31Then Moses returned to the LORD and said, "Oh, these people have committed a great sin, and have made for themselves a god of gold! 32Yet now, if You will forgive their sin--but if not, I pray, blot me out of Your book which You have written."

33And the LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book. 34Now therefore, go, lead the people to the place of which I have spoken to you. Behold, My Angel shall go before you. Nevertheless, in the day when I visit for punishment, I will visit punishment upon them for their sin."

35So the LORD plagued the people because of what they did with the calf which Aaron made.

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Well. Looks like things didn't turn out so well. What can we learn from this? What have YOU learned from this?

God bless.

The Purpose Driven Church

Scripture taken from Exodus 32 (New King James Version)
 

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Posted by Ripp (Member # 3832) on :
 

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Rick Warren's church (and others like it) have attracted thousands. His methods do work. He says that the reason for the spectacular growth has been his emphasis on creating a "purpose driven church." It could be argued with equal force, however, that the real reason for the spectacular growth is not at all related to his thesis. The real reason for the growth is because of the New Evangelical principle of pragmatism. He asked the people what they wanted, and he gave it to them. He provided the product the market demanded, and it sold like hot-cakes. If you please people, they will come and come again.

But what could be more contrary to the principles found in Scripture? Consider what God told the prophet Ezekiel (Ezek. 3:4-11). Ezekiel was told that the people would not like his ministry or message, and yet he was to preach it anyway, regardless of the response. Ezekiel was successful if he did what God said. His success in God's sight had nothing to do with the response of the people. It had to do with the faithfulness of the servant. They would know that a prophet was in their midst. He was not to ask the folks what kind of a prophetic ministry would most appeal to them. He was given a forehead harder than flint to stand for the truth against all opposition. "Whether they will hear or forbear" was not the prophet's responsibility. His goal was not to get as large a crowd as he could. His job was to preach the truth, and he did (vs. 11). That is success in God's eyes. That was a fruitful and faithful ministry.

Of course our churches will grow faster if we throw out Scriptural standards. Of course our churches will grow faster if we please men and give them what they want. Yet, the BIBLE says we are to aim to please God, not men. If we are really concerned about learning how to "build a church," does it not make more sense to study God's Word, rather than studying polls and surveys of popular opinion? Conspicuous by their absence in this book on church growth were any extended expositions from the pastoral epistles. Isn't God's opinion on the matter what we should really be seeking?

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Originally posted by danny458:
Jesus said the poor will always be with us.... THEREFORE we don't need to make a strong effort to solve problems of poverty and hunger? That's quite the leap there Ripp and SoftTouch... but I admit I've encountered the same attitude at many evangelical churches so its not surprising to hear it expressed here.

REAL people made in the image of God are suffering, and you seem to have no problem turning a blind eye if a gospel tract or some message isn't attached. So much for unconditional love with no strings attached....

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Why do you keep making something out of nothing? If you take the time to read what I post, you might have a clue as to what I'm saying.

I NEVER said that we shouldn't help the poor or the needy. But pastors should be preaching the Gospel ALONG SIDE of helping them.

If you're just going to use rhetoric with no facts, don't post.

God bless.
 

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Posted by Ripp (Member # 3832) on :
 

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As I began reading this book, the problems were so numerous and obvious that I backed up and began marking these errors. I found 42 such Biblical inaccuracies, plus 18 out-of-context passages of Scripture, supposedly used to prove his point, and another nine distorted translations. (More on some of these later in this report). In general, there is much that is disturbing within the pages of The Purpose-Driven Life. Even though he denies it, Warren is obviously a disciple of pop-psychology, which is littered throughout. The wise reader is well aware that simply because someone denies they are teaching something does not mean they are not teaching it. (John MacArthur and Larry Crabb are good examples of teachers who utilize this technique.) The proof is not in the denial but in the substance.

In this case, Warren, on the one hand, repeatedly rejects psychobabble, but on the other hand, he immerses his readers in it. One example is his statement, “Most conflict is rooted in unmet needs” (p.154). You will find that idea in Rogers and Freud and Crabb, but try to find it in Scripture. He quotes favorably from a wide variety of dubious authors, from Aldous Huxley and Albert Schweitzer to George Bernard Shaw to St. John of the Cross (Catholic mystic). He apparently believes practicing Roman Catholics are true believers, several times mentioning monks and nuns as Christian examples, and of course the obligatory reference to Mother Teresa (twice). This unqualified acceptance and promotion of Catholics brings into question Warren’s understanding of the gospel message itself. If he believes that faithful Roman Catholics, who believe in a works-righteousness, are born-again Christians, what does he believe the gospel is? Do we receive the gift of salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus certain works and sacraments? This is no minor issue, especially in a book that never spells out the plan of salvation.

When every third page (on average) of a book presents either an unbiblical, or at least a Biblically unsupportable idea, there is not much sense bothering to read it. And that would be my suggestion-- don’t bother.

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Originally posted by danny458:
Jesus said the poor will always be with us.... THEREFORE we don't need to make a strong effort to solve problems of poverty and hunger? That's quite the leap there Ripp and SoftTouch... but I admit I've encountered the same attitude at many evangelical churches so its not surprising to hear it expressed here.

REAL people made in the image of God are suffering, and you seem to have no problem turning a blind eye if a gospel tract or some message isn't attached. So much for unconditional love with no strings attached....

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WOW talk about TWISTING words and judging intentions of the heart. Dude, did you even READ my replies?

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Originally posted by danny458:

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WOW talk about TWISTING words and judging intentions of the heart. Dude, did you even READ my replies?

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I read your replies. I know that you believe the full gospel should be presented where possible.

My only point... (and my words have been twisted beyond belief on this board, so I can relate to you!) is that Rick Warren's movement has some good in it! There are millions of starving people in Africa... there is enough food in America to feed them... I see nothing wrong with attempting to get as much food to starving people as possible. Obviously there are politcial, economic, and other factors prevent us from feeding everyone and treating all disease... but whether or not the gospel is attached shouldn't be a reason to not send food, stamp out disease, or prevent education. How do you intend on spreading the gospel to people in a non-English speaking remote area where the population is sick, starving, and uneducated? Before you judge Rick Warren on the good he's doing, take a look at your own solutions to these real problems and pray God doesn't judge you the same way you judge Rick Warren. (yes yes yes... I know... you're judging his theology etc... etc... I've read the replies)

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You still don't get it do you? This thread has NOTHING to do with feeding children in Africa. My goodness, stop hijacking threads.

The thread is about Rick Warren and his PDC programs which go against the Word of God. If you want to make a "Feed Africa" thread, go for it. If you are not going to read the posts or follow the links to do research, how can you comment on Rick Warren?!



P.S. God will make good things come out of bad. Just because someone has SOME truth and does SOME good, doesn't mean they are ALL good. Perhaps you should read your Bible more concerning end times. If you did, you would know this passage:

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13For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. 14And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. 15Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works. [2 Corinthians 11:13-15]

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23And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease among the people. [Matthew 4:23]

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It appears that Jesus healed AND preached the Gospel. Are you saying that Jesus SHOULDN'T have done that?

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I never said anything bad about preching the gospel or that Christians shouldn't do it.

And the verse you gave doesn't say that Jesus NEVER did any good deeds without preching. Showing God's love in a practical way can still be good thing without a gospel tract or a mini sermon.
 

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Posted by Ripp (Member # 3832) on :
 

 

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Posted by Ripp (Member # 3832) on :
 
2Then the twelve summoned the multitude of the disciples and said, "It is not desirable that we should leave the word of God and serve tables. 3Therefore, brethren, seek out from among you seven men of good reputation, full of the Holy Spirit and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business; 4but we will give ourselves continually to prayer and to the ministry of the word." [Acts 6:2-4]

27And when they had brought them, they set them before the council. And the high priest asked them, 28saying, "Did we not strictly command you not to teach in this name? And look, you have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this Man's blood on us!" 29But Peter and the other apostles answered and said: "We ought to obey God rather than men. [Acts 5:27-29]

41So they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for His name. 42 And daily in the temple, and in every house, they did not cease teaching and preaching Jesus as the Christ. [Acts 5:41-42]
 

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Posted by Ripp (Member # 3832) on :
 
"To seek unity with false prophets without challenging their errors leaves one's own beliefs open to questions. Those who defend heretics, even if they do not believe in their teachings, are guilty of lending credibility to their heresies, and will be held accountable to God for the souls that are destroyed as a result. It's up to those that know the truth to defend the Church against false teachers whatever the cost to unity or to personal benefit" (p. 11).



"When the Scriptures tell us to judge the prophets by their fruit, it means their holy living and conformity to God's Word for themselves and those they teach. It does not mean the number of spectacular events that transpire in their lives. Nor does it rest on how many people are blessed by them; many are blessed by New Age practitioners. [Nor does it rest on the number of moral causes they are involved in.] ... Yet today's prophets tell us not to judge the ungodly lives [nor the bad doctrine] of the prophets, but to believe them because of the 'fruit' of their ministries." (p. 12) "It is not to signs and wonders that we should look [nor to the number or nature of the moral causes they are involved in], but to the overall integrity of the man who performs them. Integrity not only includes freedom from greed, lust, and avarice, but adherence to sound doctrine" (p. 16).



How can one be exonerated of bad doctrine of a particular ministry, "when he has openly endorsed that ministry and appears on their platform? One who endorses a work bears responsibility for that work and is identified with its fruit" (p. 16).



"... unity is not found in uniformity of thought, but in the fellowship of the Spirit, based on sound doctrine which, in turn, is predicated on the clear teaching of Scripture. This is why Paul exhorts us to "mark them which cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them" (Rom 16:17). The false prophets call for unity based not on Scriptural doctrine, but on their [the false prophets] claim for authority. Those who insist on fellowship based on sound doctrine are labeled legalists, while the false prophets are the ones imposing unscriptural demands upon those who follow them" (p. 14).


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* Quotes are derived from the September, 1990, Media Spotlight Special Report, entitled "Latter-Day Prophets: The Restoration of Apostles and Prophets and the Kansas City-Vineyard Connection."

Misc. Quotes on False Teachers/Teachings
 

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Posted by Ripp (Member # 3832) on :
 
Tolerating False Teachers/Apostates in the Church*

"Note the seriousness here -- the believers were tolerating them [the false teachers]. Now, that's the awfulness of it. It's not amazing that there'd be men of this character [in the church]. The tragedy is that believers are tolerant of these individuals! ...What happens when they're tolerated is they come in [into the church]. And you know what they are? They're hidden reefs ... unsuspecting believers then crash on them. And their faith is upset and their life is ruined. That's why you cannot tolerate it [false teaching] among believers.

"You allow this hidden reef for an unsuspecting Christian to crash on, and often it's done under the guise and in the name of "love." It's loving to set-up a reef for a Christian to be smashed on? Not on your life! You know what it is? -- it's cowardice on the part of believers. They don't want to deal with it [false teaching], so they say it wouldn't be loving. You know what they're afraid of? -- they're afraid of the battle.

"That's why Jude says, 'contend earnestly.' You've got to deal with it. You can't be tolerant of it ... When you think of how deceived believers have been -- you have to sift them [the apostates] very carefully through the Scriptures."


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* Taken from a commentary on Jude 12a, preached 3/15/81 (Gil Rugh).

Tolerating False Teachers/Apostates in the Church
 

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Posted by Ripp (Member # 3832) on :
 
Doctrinal Division & Discernment*

"The second part of Satan's program [the first being the hindering of the plan of God in salvation], is once a person does come to believe in Jesus Christ, he wants to prevent him from taking in the pure milk of the Word -- he wants to turn him aside from the simple commitment to following Christ and being obedient to His Word [2 Cor. 11:3,4] ... His [Paul's] concern for the Corinthians, as those who have come to believe in Jesus Christ, is that they might be turned aside from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ by paying attention to false teaching, to the corrupted gospel that was being promoted by false teachers. They need to be alert and aware ... This is the concern that is on Paul's mind as he addresses the Romans [Rom. 16:17,18].

"... He wants to remind them [the Romans] and warn them of the danger of false teachers who would turn them aside from the truth of the Word of God. They [the false teachers] would hinder their growth and mar the testimony for Christ ... Paul is saying that we are, as believers, to keep our eye on, to look over carefully, to watch out for, these kinds of people. In other words, we are not allowed to be casual or indifferent as God's children in regard to those that would cause dissension [division] and trouble in the body of Christ. We ought to be aware of those, who by their wrong teaching, would divide the body, would cause trouble in the body. We are to recognize them, know who they are. We are to keep our eye on them ... Believers are to know what's going on. We're to understand the issues. We're to discern and recognize true teachers and false teachers ... Believers are to be discerning -- it's not an option.

"... Now, how do we know who's doing this [bringing division]? Any time you have doctrine presented, you're going to have division occur -- doctrine divides. What's the standard here? Well, Paul gives it very clearly in Romans 16:17, when he says, 'contrary to the teaching which you learned.' Those who teach contrary to the teaching that has been given through the Apostles and Prophets, are those who are causing dissensions and conflicts. I want you to note this -- it's NOT those who are teaching sound doctrine, it's NOT those who are teaching the truth of the Word of God that are divisive, that cause trouble. Rather, it's those who teach contrary to the Word of God, contrary to what has been revealed by God. They are dividing the church. They are dividing believers. They are causing trouble and preventing the growth of the body of Christ. That's important to keep in mind, because any time we get into a doctrinal issue, a doctrinal conflict, the question comes, 'Well, should we be divisive over this?' If you're presenting the truth of the Word of God, it's not divisive. What brings division and dissension is those that bring teaching contrary to the Word of God. And you cannot sacrifice the truth of God for peace, unity, or harmony.

"... The response to these people? -- very simply, verse 17 -- 'Turn away from them' ... We as believers are to pay close attention, to watch out for, those who are causing dissension and hindrances by teaching contrary to the Word of God, and we are to turn away from them. Have nothing to do with them ... Anyone who advocates doctrine contrary to the Word is creating conflict within the body of Christ ... And dissension/division is always the result ... We must carefully, carefully evaluate the content of what is being presented. There is no other way to discern evil.

". . .you cannot tell whether the doctrine being presented is true or false by the personality of the speaker. You can only tell by analyzing the doctrine in light of the Word ... You see the issue here? -- false teachers wooing away believers from their devotion to Christ; this is a serious matter ... This is the plan and program of Satan in the world today -- to develop counterfeits to the plan and program of God in salvation ... and he can adjust it so it is appealing to us, so it sounds good to us. And we have to be discerning lest we be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ ... Some of those kind of teachers come up from among the church. They profess to be believers; they appear in so many ways to look good. The only way to deal with satanic counterfeits is to sift the doctrine carefully, carefully, carefully through the Scripture. The better the counterfeit, the more discerning you have to be.

"... '[But] this person may be a believer.' You know, the Scripture doesn't call on me to make that final decision. Some of these teachers promoting wrong doctrine, I can't tell whether they're believers or not ... But you know what the Scripture tells me to do -- discern their doctrine. If their doctrine's not correct, turn away from them. It doesn't tell me to make a subjective decision -- 'If you feel good about the fact that they're probably believers, then forget the doctrine.' If they're teaching contrary to the truth of the Word, turn away from them. And if you don't, over time their smooth, flattering speech will deceive your heart, and you will be amazed at how far adrift from the truth you can end up.

"... You note here, you're to contend earnestly for the faith [Jude 3]. 'Believers aren't to be divisive, are they?' We're not to cause dissensions, no. How do we avoid that? We constantly just present the truth. That means we will be constantly battling against error. People will say, 'Well look, I don't want a church where they have conflict, and I don't want to have division.' What they're looking for is a nice squishy, emotional bath where people will throw doctrine out the door for good feelings. And all that matters is that we 'come together and have love.' And love and peace supersede doctrine. But you take doctrine out of your love and what do you have? ... What is your love without truth? ... There is no love apart from truth! ... Biblical love only functions in the context of truth. There is no sacrificing of doctrine for any reason, because then you've turned aside from purity of devotion to Christ.

"... And having a good testimony as a church does not mean now that you can sit back and take it easy. It means that you must now be all the more alert, all the more careful, because there's all the more danger that you would be turned from your obedience ... We're often gullible because we think we know better than God. 'Well, I know but I don't want to be a doctrinal nitpicker here. My goodness, can't we just love one another for a while and forget this doctrine?' No you can't. Satan won't go away ... One of his tactics is to wear us down ... The servants of Satan cannot change. Any compromise has to come from us -- compromising God's standard and God's truth. And God has not given us the right to compromise his truth -- not even the smallest jot and tittle can be compromised ... What is taking place with this false doctrine and this false teaching is the activity of Satan. These are doctrines of demons that are being promoted. That's why it brings dissension. That's why it troubles the body and brings hindrances to growth. You cannot mix the doctrines of Satan and the doctrines of Almighty God.

"... We are called to peace as God's people. We are called to war as God's people. We are called to peace with those who are like-minded in the gospel of Jesus Christ. We are called to war with those, to contend for the faith against those, who oppose the truth of the Word of God."


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* Taken from a commentary on Romans 16:17-20, preached 12/8/91 (Gil Rugh).

Doctrinal Division & Discernment
 

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Posted by Gramajo320 (Member # 3772) on :
 
Ripp,

Yes the gospel must be preached at all times and witnessing must be done at all times. God bless you always!


In Christ's love,
Gramajo320
 

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Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on :
 
I remember reading this one... which article was that from? The Introduction?

Excellent Information Bro!
 

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Posted by Ripp (Member # 3832) on :
 
God bless you too Gramajo.

Deb,

You can find it here under the quotes section:

Bible Discernment Ministries

God bless and stay strong.

P.S. I'll add the links. Although they are all from the same section, they are under different headings.
 

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Posted by Ripp (Member # 3832) on :
 
Watch Out for the False Teachers Among You

"Paul said that these false teachers (Romans 16:17,18) are effective in deceiving believers. They're effective for two reasons: (1) These false teachers are very effective communicators -- 'They use smooth and flattering speech to deceive people;' ... (2) Believers aren't paying attention. Believers are unsuspecting ... They're [the false teachers] using smooth and flattering speech. They have personal magnetism about them. Our attention gets turned away from what they are saying to how they are saying it, to the impression they are making with their own personality. And when we are put in that situation, we turn our attention from the content of what is being taught, and ... we open ourselves up to be deceived and turned away from our purity and devotion to Jesus Christ.

"Now, one of the ways that believers get deluded is they begin to focus on what they agree with in false teaching, but what is at issue is what we disagree with ... Many believers are being deluded today [in this way] ... In such a debate [with false teachers], we have to be sure to focus on what we disagree on ... we have to be very careful as we are exposed to false teachers.

" ... If we're talking about it being the power of God that establishes us, how do believers get deceived? Did God's power not work for them? ... You must understand the means of God's power -- 'according to my Gospel ' ... The Gospel of God is the message of Jesus Christ. He is the subject of that message ... The Gospel includes everything related to His death, burial, and resurrection ... The whole book of Romans is a detailed presentation of the Gospel ... God's power always works in the context of His Gospel, His revealed Word ... That is true not only in the initial salvation of the lost, but the ongoing salvation that the believer experiences [i.e., progressive sanctification] ... God's power does not work in the life of God's child -- to establish them, to firmly plant them, to strengthen them -- apart from the ministry of the Word of God in that life. If you are not being regularly exposed and taught and saturated with the Word of God, then God's power will not operate to establish you, and you will become a prey to satanic deception.

"I hope you have this underlined in your Bible -- 'There will also be false teachers among you.' He doesn't say maybe. We're not talking about the [cults] ... we're talking about those that rise from within the Church of Jesus Christ and promote false doctrine. 'They will secretly introduce destructive heresies' (2 Peter 2:1). How can you secretly introduce a destructive heresy among believers? Well, you present it under the guise of being truth to believers who are unsuspecting. You present it very cleverly, very smoothly ...

"We [the Church] are more concerned with our feelings and our experiences than we are with the Truth of God ... You better be looking for a place where the Word is believed and taught. That's what the Church is; it's the pillar and support of the truth ... Are you looking for friends or are you looking for the truth? We want to corrupt and twist the Church to make it what people want ... Come to the church that believes and teaches the truth! ... God's power does not operate apart from God's Word ... If Satan wants to disrupt the work of God in your life, what does he do? -- attack the Word, so that the power of God does not work ... You could never have been saved apart from the Word of God, and you ought to understand, you can never grow, you can never be firmly planted as a child of God, unless you are constantly, constantly taking in the diet of the pure milk of the Word of God ... We must have that imbedded in our hearts and minds. Never be satisfied, never tolerate anything else, than a ministry that is focused in its entirety on the Gospel of Jesus Christ."


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* Taken from a commentary on Romans 16:17-20 & 2 Peter 2:1-3, preached 12/15/91 (Gil Rugh).

Watch Out for the False Teachers Among You
 

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Posted by Trafield (Member # 758) on :
 
Titus 3:1-11
1Remind them to be subject to rulers, to authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good deed,
2to malign no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing every consideration for all men.
3For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another.
4But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared,
5He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
6whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
8This is a trustworthy statement; and concerning these things I want you to speak confidently, so that those who have believed God will be careful to engage in good deeds. These things are good and profitable for men.
9But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.
10Reject a factious man after a first and second warning,
11knowing that such a man is perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned.

I went well beyond the first and second warning (though not all publically) about those here who want to pick and choose which scripture they want to agree with and slander other members of the Church Body. Therefore, as the above scripture states, I must reject this board and state that this will be my last post here. For the accusers of deceivers are deceiving themselves and you have been warned. Repent of this foolishness, bretheren! Remember that the Lord hates pride and arrogance, and that pride will go before your fall.

The Church is full of accusers and those who want to kick us when we are down. Do you know who else comes to accuse and condemn? It is certainly not the Lord! So we all need to keep our eyes fixed on Jesus who is the perfector of our faith, and with Him for us, who can be against us?

So you want to keep throwing stones? Let he who is without sin, throw away.

My final warning:

Romans 2:1-11
1Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.
2And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things.
3But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God?
4Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?
5But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6who will render to each person according to his deeds:
7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
9There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
11For there is no partiality with God.
 

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Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on :
 
Here is part of a post I did in response to a question in another thread (and section). My conscience is clear Tra. I am NOT Judging the hearts of these teachers (that is God’s job alone), I am, however, Judging the False Teachings as being False. Brother Ripp is doing the same. We’re Told to do this by the Apostles:

quote:

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We must not ignore the Warnings and instructions given to us by the Apostles:

Romans 16:17-18 17Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
18For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

Who’s he talking to here? The Believers. Who is it that’s causing these divisions? Those who teach Contrary to what Jesus and the Apostles have taught (Sound Doctrine). He says to Mark Them – make a note – let it be known…

1 Timothy 4: 16Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Paul’s talking to Timothy here and throughout this letter Paul tells Timothy to continue in Sound Doctrine. The same message applies to us today.

Titus 1:8-10 9Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

Sounds to me like another admonition not to compromise one’s Doctrine. And here is an even stronger admonishment:

2 John 1:8-10 8Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
9Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
10If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

When a teacher/preacher starts saying that there are Other Ways of reaching God – Other then through Jesus, he has left the Doctrine of Christ.

Galatians 1:6-10 6I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
10For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

Man, that’s pretty strong language! Let him be accursed… I don’t know about you, but that’s enough to make me watch my P’s and Q’s

2 Peter 2:1-3 1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

Hummm…. Anybody else here feel like ‘merchandise’ sometimes? With all the so-called ‘Christian’ reading materials, instructional books, and false translations of the Bible…. All the movies and CDs, etc. etc… A few names definitely come to mind when I read this passage…

So, even if Christ is preached regardless of who’s preaching or what their intentions are, we are Still admonished to keep our Doctrine Pure and Mark those who teach Contrary to the Faith Delivered to us by the Apostles:

Jude 1:2-4 2Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied.
3Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
4For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

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Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on :
 
Tra, your quoting of Romans 2:1-11 is entierely out of context. This isn't speaking of Judging Doctrine. This has been discussed extensively on this board many times in the past.
 

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Posted by Ripp (Member # 3832) on :
 
What she said.

God bless.
 

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Posted by Ripp (Member # 3832) on :
 
There are people on the list that I have followed in the past. It's not pleasant but why ignore the Truth? Besides, it's arguing against the doctrine of the person, not judging the person. I urge you not to put your head in the sand. Don't run from the truth. Listen to your Spirit.

God bless.
 

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Posted by Ripp (Member # 3832) on :
 
The Blurring of Lines & Shame For The Gospel

March 11, 2005


As you may know, Rick Warren, pastor of Saddleback Community Church and author of The Purpose Driven Life has begun to write a monthly column for Ladies Home Journal. This ought to be an exciting opportunity for a professed Christian, for this space is generally reserved for articles dealing with "spirituality" which equates to New Age (or, as it is more commonly know, New Spirituality). In fact, this month the Ladies Home Journal has an article entitled "The New Spirituality" which traces the change in American attitudes towards religion in the post-9/11 era. The article speaks of interfaith services and features an interview with John Edward (the supposed psychic medium).

Alas, it seems that Warren is squandering this opportunity, writing a column more consistent with pop-psychology than with the Scriptures. March’s column is called "Learn to Love Yourself." He begins the column with the words, "Self-esteem still wobbly after all these years? These five simple truths will show you that you don’t need to be perfect to be priceless." Warren then writes briefly about five different points: Accept Yourself, Love Yourself, Be True To Yourself, Forgive Yourself, Believe in Yourself. Here is a brief summary of each point:

Accept Yourself

God accepts us unconditionally, and in his view we are all precious and priceless. So instead of chasing after other people’s approval, we need to accept who we are.

Love Yourself

We are to love ourselves in the same way God loves us. In this section Warren quotes (or misquotes) Isaiah 54:10 which clearly has nothing to do with loving ourselves.

Be True To Yourself

Discover, accept and enjoy our unique "shape" (which refers to Warren’s S.H.A.P.E. assessment) and be content with our weaknesses.

Forgive Yourself

God doesn’t expect perfection but He does insist on honesty, so we need to admit our errors and ask forgiveness. We need to forgive others in the selfless way God forgives us.

Believe in Yourself

Begin to affirm the truths about ourselves - that God has created us with talents, abilities, personality and background in a way that makes us each unique.

Warren closes with the words "You can believe what others say about you, or you can believe in yourself as God does, who says you are truly acceptable, lovable, valuable and capable.

Noticeably lacking in this column is any mention of sin, repentance, Jesus, the cross or anything else distinctly Christian. The God he writes about could be consistent with the theology of the New Spirituality (where God is actually us) or with Muslim or Mormon theology. What is even worse is that the article contains many statements that are blatantly anti-Christian. God does not accept us unconditionally. If He did, there would have been no need for Jesus to die. And God does expect perfection from us. Matthew 5:48 says, "You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." God expects and demands absolute perfection from us. While none of us deliver, thus requiring infinite amounts of grace and forgiveness, this in no way reduces the requirement. I guess there is little reason to wonder why there is not more Scriptural content in this article - after all, the majority of what Warren writes cannot be backed up by any reasonably accurate translation of the Bible. For more detailed analysis, you can turn to Paul Proctor’s article on this topic.

On February 1 I posted an article called Purpose, PEACE and New Spirituality (it is well worth your while reading it) where I showed that the lines between what is Christian and what is New Age are becoming increasingly blurry. After comparing the writing and language of several Christian and New Age leaders I concluded, "The point is clear. The New Age, which we so often regard as being entirely foreign to us, is making increasing inroads into Christianity. The thrust of this article is not to discern whether Christianity is moving into the New Age or whether the New Age is moving into Christianity (or both). Rather, it is show that these changes provide just one more reason to be on guard, to know the Scriptures, and to be able to defend our beliefs. As the lines become blurred, we need to be able to discern Christian from New Age, truth from error. We need to know not only the language of Christianity, but also the underlying concepts and definitions, that we will be able to distinguish between ever-small differentiations."

The Blurring of Lines & Shame For The Gospel

I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom: Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry. [2 Timothy 4:1-5]

Open your eyes to the Truth of the Gospel and shy away from these false teachers...there will be more to come, you can bet on that. Stay in God's Word, not man's.

There is a way that seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death. [Proverbs 14:12]

God bless and stay strong.
 

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Posted by Ripp (Member # 3832) on :
 
Rick Warren teaches:

quote:

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Accept Yourself

God accepts us unconditionally, and in his view we are all precious and priceless. So instead of chasing after other people’s approval, we need to accept who we are.

---

quote:

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Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. [Matthew 16:24]

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quote:

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Love Yourself

We are to love ourselves in the same way God loves us. In this section Warren quotes (or misquotes) Isaiah 54:10 which clearly has nothing to do with loving ourselves.

---

quote:

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Jesus said to him, "" You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' [Matthew 22:37]

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quote:

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Be True To Yourself

Discover, accept and enjoy our unique "shape" (which refers to Warren’s S.H.A.P.E. assessment) and be content with our weaknesses.

---

quote:

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And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life. [1 John 5:20]

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quote:

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Forgive Yourself

God doesn’t expect perfection but He does insist on honesty, so we need to admit our errors and ask forgiveness. We need to forgive others in the selfless way God forgives us.

---

quote:

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In Him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. [Ephesians 1:7-8]

---

quote:

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Believe in Yourself

Begin to affirm the truths about ourselves - that God has created us with talents, abilities, personality and background in a way that makes us each unique.

---

quote:

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For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. [John 3:16]

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For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. [Matthew 24:24]

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. [2 Thessalonians 2:1-4]

For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works. [2 Corinthians 11:13-15]

God bless and stay strong in the Word.
 

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Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
The tribulation will start at the moment the anit-christ signs a peace agreement with Israel, a 7 yr peace aggrement.
 

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Posted by Ripp (Member # 3832) on :
 
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man--and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. [Romans 1:18-25]
 

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Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
nope, hasn't been done. The Bible says that when it is signed, it will be done with the anit-christ. President Clinton was not the anit-christ, although my husband thinks President Bush is the ant-christ, also. He is wrong, and I tell him so.
This peace agreement will last for 3 1/2 yrs and then the anti-christ will declare open war on Israel and that will begin the Great Tribulation.
betty
 

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Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
we are not in the tribulation. The Bible says what will happen during the triublation and it has not started. I believe the rapture will take place first. The tribulation is when God pours out His wrath. The Church will be in Heaven for the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.
betty

I am looking forward when the rapture takes place and we are with Jesus
 

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Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :
 

quote:

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Remember; it is a spirit that has been let loose in the earth, Rick Warren is nothing to worry about, we must bind up the dark spirit.

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Any person who speaks contrary to the Scripture and contrary to the Gospel of Christ is the spirit of antichrist.

The spririt of antichrist has been loose in the earth since the first century that we know of:

1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

I would like to see the scripture that says we are to bind the Spirit of AntiChrist. Satan himself is the power of the Spirit of antiChrist and it will be the Holy Angels of God that bind him and return him to the pit when God commands them to do so.

Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

I caution you that thinking this is the great tribulation leaves you rather ill prepared for the real one should you find yourself in it.

We are told that those with understanding should count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six. I personally am not counting because I don't feel that I have understanding in this matter, but instead I choose to seek God and Christ..... To look for him and his return. The scripture says that HE is a rewarder of those who seek HIM.

The man of sin, the son of perdition, will be revealed to whom he will be revealed when God choses. If I am here for that and they want to put a mark on me, they will have to put it on my already dead body.
 

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Posted by Ripp (Member # 3832) on :
 
Rick Warren Teams Up With New-Age Guru Ken Blanchard!

This is a Special Report.

Apr 19, 2005 While Rick Warren is gearing up to train a billion people, unbeknownst to many he has also been teamed up with New Age and contemplative promoter, Ken Blanchard, for some time now. According to a new biography on Rick Warren, A Life With Purpose written by George Mair, Rick Warren has solicited the services of Ken Blanchard to aid him in training leaders: "Rick taps the best and most famous to help train church leaders to be like Jesus. He has hired Ken Blanchard .... to come to Saddleback to help train people how to be effective leaders." p. 193

In light of knowing who Ken Blanchard is, this is shocking and devastating news for the church!

There is countless evidence to show that Blanchard sits on the New Age/mystical/contemplative bandwagon. Blanchard believes in the benefits and use of mantra meditation, yoga and has no trouble borrowing from Buddhism.

Here are just a few examples:

Wrote the foreword to Jim Ballard's Mind Like Water
Wrote the foreword to Franz Metcalf's What Would Buddha Do At Work?
Is on the Front Cover of Corporate Mystic-(Listen)
Is on the Back Cover of Deepak Chopra's 7 Spiritual Laws of Success
Jim Ballard, a staunch New Ager, and a colleague of The Ken Blanchard Companies
Wrote the Foreword to Ellen Ladd's (clairvoyant) book, Death and Letting Go.

Blanchard makes no apology when he says much can be gained from Buddhism. He and his wife both encourage the practice of yoga (p.11) and mantra meditation.


For those who do not find the words of an unofficial biographer (Mair) linking Rick Warren with Blanchard convincing enough,Ken Blanchard, Rick Warren and Bill Hybels (Willow Creek) have become team players at the Lead Like Jesus conferences, which take place across North America. The three also have an audio set they co-authored together.

Did Rick Warren know of Blanchard's sympathies when he brought him in to help at Saddleback? Of course he did. And do you think that Rick Warren and Ken Blanchard are going to train their "billion" soldiers for Christ how to practice New Age mysticism and learn how to go into altered states of consciousness? You bet. And that is definitely something to be concerned about.

"...they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. And for this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they might believe what is false ..." II Thessalonians 2: 10-11


Lighthouse Trails Research Project
Deborah Dombrowski
editor@lighthousetrails.com

Rick Warren Teams Up With New-Age Guru Ken Blanchard!

God bless.
 

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Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on :
 
Nuff Said

Thanks for posting that Brother Ripp!
 

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Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
Hands Bro. Ripp a steel sheet to stand behind when rocks start flying.

It scares me when Preachers try to bend the Word of God backwards so they can not offend other relegions. The Bible says that Jesus is the way to Heaven, period! If this is offensive to muslem, new agers, etc. I am sorry. But beter to offend them now then have them cying out from hell, that Bro. So and So said that all roads lead to heaven. God help Bro So &SO for leading people astray from the truth. And God help me, If I keep my mouth shut when I know that people are being led astray, because of a few harsh words that come my way.
betty
 

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Posted by hardcore (Member # 4492) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
Hands Bro. Ripp a steel sheet to stand behind when rocks start flying.

It scares me when Preachers try to bend the Word of God backwards so they can not offend other relegions. The Bible says that Jesus is the way to Heaven, period! If this is offensive to muslem, new agers, etc. I am sorry. But beter to offend them now then have them cying out from hell, that Bro. So and So said that all roads lead to heaven. God help Bro So &SO for leading people astray from the truth. And God help me, If I keep my mouth shut when I know that people are being led astray, because of a few harsh words that come my way.
betty

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You are so right TG. We are "politically correcting" people straight to hell.
 

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Posted by hardcore (Member # 4492) on :
 
"Rick Warren Teams Up With New-Age Guru Ken Blanchard!"

Assuming this is true and verifiable (I'm certainly guessing it is), I wonder if bible believers will continue to defend him.

Can't wait to see how this shakes out.
 

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Posted by Favor Minded (Member # 3636) on :
 
I was looking for Buddha here here - Can't find him ANYWHERE -

Having been heavily involved and actually managed 100's of people for many years, leadership training / team building, etc can be critical.

Again - What somene may have said in their past has little to do with future.

Saddleback IS currently mobilizing 1000's upon 1000's to missions work.

Now, whether or not everything they have ever said lines up is not nearly as relevant as the fact that they ARE mobilizing MANY MANY MANY to do the missions field work.

While some are busy trying to dig up gossip and dirt on them (Which IS a sin you know)

they are busy building God's Kingdom - Go figure...
 

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Posted by Ripp (Member # 3832) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Favor Minded:
I was looking for Buddha here here - Can't find him ANYWHERE -

Having been heavily involved and actually managed 100's of people for many years, leadership training / team building, etc can be critical.

Again - What somene may have said in their past has little to do with future.

Saddleback IS currently mobilizing 1000's upon 1000's to missions work.

Now, whether or not everything they have ever said lines up is not nearly as relevant as the fact that they ARE mobilizing MANY MANY MANY to do the missions field work.

While some are busy trying to dig up gossip and dirt on them (Which IS a sin you know)

they are busy building God's Kingdom - Go figure...

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You can't build God's Kingdom when you don't teach rebirth, repentance or the True Word of God. What you see is a delusion. Sure, they may be good things to do for the world, but not for God's Kingdom. Unless of course you believe that Jesus isn't the only way to Heaven...

But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away! [2 Timothy:1-5]

For we are not, as so many, peddling the word of God; but as of sincerity, but as from God, we speak in the sight of God in Christ. [2 Corinthians 2:17]

Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him; for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds. [2 John 1:9-10]

The apostic church is moving away from teaching Jesus Christ and salvation. Come out of her and get back to the True Word of God. Giving money to charities doesn't get you into His Kingdom, giving yourself to Jesus does...

God bless.
 

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Posted by Favor Minded (Member # 3636) on :
 
There you go with your jealously over money thing again...

quote:

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You can't build God's Kingdom when you don't teach rebirth, repentance or the True Word of God.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Favor Minded:
There you go with your jealously over money thing again...


WHY do you PRESUME to know that HE LOVES MONEY?

Because GOD has chosen to entrust him with much? A VERY biblical principle -

Geesh - Praise God not everyone thinks this way or THERE WOULD BE NO $$$ to FUND THE MISSIONS...

How can you presume to know he loves money? HOW?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Favor Minded:
Oh, and - since you think you;ve a right to state so boldly he IS NOT biblical, and his teachings ARE NOT biblical, and he is leading them all straight to hell (A VERY BOLD statement which I KNOW you should not make)

PROVE IT!

WHERE is the NON Biblical teaching? Show me...

YOU WILL answer for speaking against these people - All of you will.

You really need to get on with going after the REAL false teachings and doctrines if you honestly believe you are called to Heresy Hunting.

Teaching people to use their God given gifts to serve God is VERY BIBLICAL - But then not everyone WANTS to hear that.

Not everyone WANTS to dedicate their time and effort to ACTUALLY serving God - They are content to surf the Internet reading tabloids instead, thinking they got it goin on...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Favor Minded:
I already have - for 3 years - That is why I am asking you.

Am I to assume you were simply following the words of others?

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Originally posted by danny458:
This is all so interesting. When I was in college, one of my professors (Greg Boyd) was on the hot seat for some of his theological beliefs. The heresy hunters were out in force. (Led by John Piper) One weekend the heresy hunters had a meeting... they called themselves the 'concerned pastors' of the BGC. (Baptist General Conference) This meeting was well publicized at my college... there were dozens of pastors who spent the better part of 2 days condemning theology.

I'll never forget the Monday morning afterwards... Greg Boyd came in to class with his head down and looked sad. He said "this past weekend dozens of my colleges conspired against me..." Then he looked up with a silly grin and said "while they were to tar and feathering me.... I was a part of a conference that saw over 1000 people led to the lord! Let's pray for these new believers..."

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i am not from your silly gatherings of sillyness.

I am from the Word of our Lord.
 

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Posted by Ripp (Member # 3832) on :
 
Amen WildB.

Jim, If you want proof of unscriptural practices, all you have to do is follow the links. You have been given many opportunities to research this but you have chosen to ignore, so don't ask for proof if you aren't willing to look at the proof when it is presented.

Any church that takes a community poll to discover THEIR desires should already give you a red flag. Any church that is promoting new-age, psychological teachings instead of rebirth and repentance is not of God. People can still be saved from this nonsense, God can call anyone anywhere. I am proof of that. But that doesn't make his teachings correct and ones that we should promote.

When Jesus said, "Feed my sheep", what do you think He meant? Do you think He meant for us to teach about 100 fold prosperity or how to have a loving marriage? No, He meant FEED MY SHEEP! PERIOD. Preach the GOSPEL and teach REBIRTH AND REPENTANCE, that's what He meant Jim. We are to spread the good news of the Gospel, not the good news of prosperity or living a healthy life. We are to be seperate from the world, not dance around the golden calf with non-believers.

If you teach all the way up to rebirth and repentance and stop short, you are failing Jesus and the Word of God. And more, you are disobeying Him. Period. Preachers are to preach the message of Jesus Christ and the Gospel. PERIOD! I repeat, PERIOD! This new-age and psychological junk is to stay in the world. We are NOT to bring it into our teachings.

Learn it. Understand it. Set it in your heart.

Time is short, now stop with the earthly madness. Get away from these false teachers before it's too late.

God bless.
 

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Posted by whitesands777 (Member # 3424) on :
 
I don't know about you, but if RW is not preaching the gospel with the missions, then it spells trouble...

Acts 2

38"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call."


Matthew 28

18"And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations , baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen."

Mark 16

15"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved ; but he that believeth not shall be damned."


Luke 24

45"Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, 46And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. "


John 20

30"And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ , the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name."


Jesus commanded them to preach the gospel throughout the world and to all those who believe to baptize them in His name.
 

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Posted by Gramajo320 (Member # 3772) on :
 
Favorminded,

A huge amen to your postings and God bless you always! You definitely have discernment and you definitely are led by the Holy Spirit!


In Christ's love,
Gramajo320
 

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Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Gramajo320:
Favorminded,

A huge amen to your postings and God bless you always! You definitely have discernment and you definitely are led by the Holy Spirit!


In Christ's love,
Gramajo320

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quote:

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Originally posted by Gramajo320:
Wild B,

Favorminded most assuredly goes by the word of God and he most definitely does have discernment and he is led by the Holy Spirit.


In Christ's love,
Gramajo320

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As U say
 

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Posted by Ripp (Member # 3832) on :
 
Provocative Commentary
Which Church is Emerging?
Greg Lobdell


The word “revival” may be a bit too strong in describing the growing number of church-goers who now rely for inspirational guidance on Rick Warren’s The Purpose Driven Life and Dan Kimball’s The Emerging Church: Vintage Christianity for New Generations. The timing for change appears to be perfect depending upon whose church you are talking about. Roger Oakland’s commentary on this apparent inspiration, now a national church movement, raises the question of whether biblical fulfillment or warning is served. My sense is both. Roger’s article, posted by Koenig’s International News, entitled, THE EMERGING CHURCH commanded my attention.

My Bible tells me there are two churches and they are both emerging, each with very opposite destinies:

One, to glorify the returning Christ, or Machiach (Jewish Messiah), and the other to glorify the coming false Messiah, described in Revelation 13 and 17. Of course the faithful of both churches can be seen attending church, and followers engaged in earnest attempts to demonstrate their faith. Spiritual seduction and deception appear attractive. It will not be easy to distinguish between churches without resorting to the Bible’s Act 17:11, the famous test of the Bereans, who searched the Bible’s passages to see for themselves if Paul’s comments were true.

How can we tell which church we belong to? A clue arose for me on pages 285-6 of Rick Warren’s The Purpose Driven Life. Rick discourages everyone from inquiring or pursuing an understanding of the biblical End Times. His interpretation of four biblical passages (Acts 1:7-8; Matthew 24:14, 36; Luke 9:62) urges the reader to avoid any effort to seek greater awareness of G-d’s plan, or timetable for its completion. I am a 21st century Berean. What might I investigate to see if Rick Warren’s discouragement meets the biblical test? History books tell us that rejection of the Hebrew biblical covenant has defeated world empires for three millennia. Since Roman Emperor, Constantine’s Jewish cleansing of his newly adopted Christianity, at the Council of Nicaea in 325AD, discernment of G-d’s chosen events and timing for the wrap-up of history have been obscured.

The world continues to vent its ancient resentment of the Jews for their selection as G-d’s trustor of salvation. When I read my devotional there are two different spirits speaking: One is like a raging bull bent upon defeating Jewish life and existence. Israeli history speaks for the evidence. Revelation 12 summarizes the spiritual warfare. The other spirit places her at the head of the nations (Deuteronomy 26:19 and Isaiah 14), blesses her as the original branch of faith, through which the end times must pass (Romans 11), and for whom the Messiah promises to return (Zechariah 12 & 13). For those who have read the biblical conditions imposed on Israel for leadership in Deuteronomy 28, read Ezekiel, Hosea, Isaiah and Zechariah together before deciding if the “conditions” survive in the 21st century.

Rick makes no allowance for the uncertainty of the “day and the hour” as a Hebraic idiom of the first century. Matthew 24:36 encourages us to watch, just as the Jews did in the first century, to visually determine the exact day and hour of the new moon, or the first day of the month of Tishrei. This was the Jewish Sanhedrin’s way of declaring when to start the celebration of the Feast of Yom Teruah (Rosh HaShanah). Without this understanding, none of the dozen or so “watch” commandments of the New Testament carry any power. Especially Revelation 3:3…But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time (hour) I will come to you. If we accept Rick Warren’s displeasure at such “watching,” we have made a choice to stay in a church that is asleep.

Webster gives the definition of the apocalypse (future shape of end time events) as the revelation of future events by means of symbols, understandable to the faithful, but hidden from others.

There is more than one church emerging. Which one are you in?

GREG LOBDELL
WatchBeReady Publications
Watchbeready2004@yahoo.com

Which Church is Emerging?

What church do YOU fit in? Be careful! Your answer holds eternal consequences...

God bless.
 

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Posted by Favor Minded (Member # 3636) on :
 

quote:

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Ripp Quotes...
I am a 21st century Berean.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Favor Minded:

quote:

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Ripp Quotes...
I am a 21st century Berean.

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You might wanna look into the Bereans before you go spoutin' off about what they think...

You will find that their views are skewed too...

But then that must be the "I agree" with some and not all thing - Ok for this guy, not ok for Copeland or Meyers, right?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Favor Minded:
Blind accusing Blind, is that what you are condoning?

I see neither one as false - That is where we differ.

You cannot point out anything false other that what someone else has said -

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A witness is a witness no matter if you like what they say or not. And in this case, there are many...

God bless.

P.S. I have read parts of his book and it is new-age "seeker sensitive" junk. I've taken it to the Word and it has failed...

He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me?" Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, "Do you love Me?" And he said to Him, "Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You."

Jesus said to him, "Feed My sheep. [John 21:17]
 

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Posted by Favor Minded (Member # 3636) on :
 

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Ripp Says
I have read parts of his book and it is new-age "seeker sensitive" junk. I've taken it to the Word and it has failed...

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Originally posted by Favor Minded:

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Ripp Says
I have read parts of his book and it is new-age "seeker sensitive" junk. I've taken it to the Word and it has failed...

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If this were true you could quote and prove it...

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It is and I have. The posts are there Jim...

God bless.
 

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Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 

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Assuming this is true and verifiable (I'm certainly guessing it is), I wonder if bible believers will continue to defend him.

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Originally posted by Ripp:

quote:

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Originally posted by Favor Minded:

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Ripp Says
I have read parts of his book and it is new-age "seeker sensitive" junk. I've taken it to the Word and it has failed...

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If this were true you could quote and prove it...

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It is and I have. The posts are there Jim...

God bless.

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Originally posted by becauseHElives:

quote:

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Assuming this is true and verifiable (I'm certainly guessing it is), I wonder if bible believers will continue to defend him.

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No Bible believer will defend Rick Warren, or any of the other false prophets of our day.

Anyone not preaching a straight gate and a narrow way is a deceiver.

And those that love the Truth, the Truth being Yeshua will not be deceived by the false doctrines of men/devils.

But the tares, they heap to themselves teacher because the have itching ears, want an easy message.

Only tares that can not hear and understand the Spirit defend such trash. (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12)

I am not here to win friends; I am hear to preach the Gospel.

Yeshua said, hear HIS words "few will enter into eternal life."

Yeshua said you will be hated or loved when you preach the true message of the Gospel.

Everywhere the Apostle Paul went preaching they loved him, some even wanted to worship him or they wanted to kill him, there is no between ground for the child of Yahweh.

There is a message being preached in our day that says with "Favor Minded" and others, what ever it takes, do it, bring them in, Christian rock concerts, swim parties, beach parties, church lock ins to give away a car or some other prize. But that is not what Yeshua taught. (How sad, how deceptive)The Blood Of Yeshua is no longer enough, we have to have the gimics of this world. The Trogan Horse is inside the walls of the Church just as Yeshua promised. Detroying from the inside.

I know who is going to win this fight, Satan was defeated at Calvary. But he wwill not give in till it is over.

You that can hear, keep up the good fight, victory is ours. IN YESHUA'S NAME.

The Scriptures say only by the foolishness of preaching Messiah's, death, burial, and resurrection will men be saved.

The multitudes followed Yeshua, but after it was all said and done only 120 were in that upper room.

Only eight souls got on that ark

And

Only four got out of Sodom, and one of them looked back and didn’t make it

Yeshua said once you put your hand to the plow, don’t look back

Once Saved Always Saved people better take note

Many will say in that day Lord, Lord

But what a horrible answer they will hear

Depart from me you Lawless ones, you worker of iniquity I never knew you

“As it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be in the days of the return of the Son of man”

And

“As it was in the days of Lot, so shall it be in the days of the return of the Son of man”

Only a few escaped in Noah’s day and only a few escaped in Lot’s day, and only few will escapes in the Day of the Lord, the day of the return of the Son of man.

Even so, come quickly Yeshua, come quickly!

The Bride has made herself ready, the Bride has kept herself from the pollutions of this world, and the Bride has come out from among them

Or you part of the Bride of Christ or are you a part of the religious harlot in bed with this world

Only you can examine yourself and see if you are in the True Faith or are you part of the ecumenical harlot that excepts the broad path that leads to destruction ,

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Good post. It's spot on.
 

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Posted by Gramajo320 (Member # 3772) on :
 
Favorminded,

There are those of us who truly appreciate your postings and we've learned so much from them. You truly are led by the Holy Spirit and we really appreciate your sharing with us your knowledge and wisdom! You truly are doing the Lord's work and we certainly look forward to more of your postings! God bless you very much in all the work you are doing for the Lord!

In Christ's love,
Gramajo320
 

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Posted by cheech (Member # 4592) on :
 
All these posts are definitely something to think about.

Our church did the PDL thing last year for 40 days. We were still encouraged to read our bibles. I found the book ok...rather, another book among the many that were out there. Actually I had bought that book a year of so prior but just never read it until our church decided to do the 40 days things. Once it was done, nothing more was done with it. Like I said...it was ok reading, but I don't think my family got the big "change" or "special feeling" it was deemed to give. No one from my church really talks about it much either. I'm wondering if it didn't do too much for them either. Could this mean something? If I remember correctly, (too lazy to go get the book) I thought it odd that when he sometimes quoted something from the bible, he didn't quote it word for word and there wasn't a reference to the bible after it (like John or Romans). It was in certain spots I found this.

What I do like about my church is that they not only encourage you to read the bible, but to have it in church and open it up. Also they do altar calls and if we see the candle lit, that means another person(s)became saved and they announce it. I've never seen this before (coming from the catholic church) but my husband has and feels strongly about it (meaning he is for it). I like the idea of it.

I guess what it comes down to is that even though I like to read "spiritual books" among others, I never get a truly great feeling unless I read the bible because it is God's word. Man's word can tend to confuse people as they claim they are telling the truth and insinuate you should believe whatever they are telling you, but God's word is the truth and I know I can never go wrong with it. My family and I have our most deepest discussions after one of us has read the bible

In conclusion even though there's alot of (good?) reading out there when it comes to spirituality, the ONLY good info concerning it will come from the bible.

cheech
 

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Posted by Ripp (Member # 3832) on :
 
I am so upset right now I am almost in tears. People have got to wake up to the apostasy. Too many souls are at stake. If people can't see what is going on from testimonies like Tom's then we might as well pack it all in now. If people are so blind that they can't see the destructive nature of what's going on in todays churches, you need to do a Spirit check. I am so sad and angry and sick to my stomach right now I can't stand it. Wake up people, please, for the love of God, wake up! The apostasy is HERE, it is NOW! I love all of you Brothers and Sisters and don't want to see ANY of you fall away. Please! Stay with God! Stand with Jesus and the Word of God! Please, wake up and stand firm! We are running out of time. I don't want to read any more of these testimonies!

Am I intollerant? Too conservative?

Please Lord, come quickly! I can't stand this!
 

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Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
Hang In the Bro. Ripp,

You are doing God's work. I know it is a daily struggle and we all feel like we have been ripped apart over this, but God will bless you for your work. Many of us love and appreciate your courage for standing for the right and for speaking the truth.
Love and Prayers,
betty
 

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Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on :
 
Amen Sister Betty!

Be of Good Cheer Brother. Those whom God has determined will have ears to hear will hear. We've seen evidence of this. I'm encouraged when I see new names pop into the various threads to say they didn't know, but now they see.


Today starts the Passover. As Born Again Believers, let us remember the significance of this day in our lives. As we have the Blood of the Perfect Lamb (Jesus) as our covering causing death to Passover us!

PRAISE GOD FOR HIS GRACE AND MERCY!
 

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Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
Hang in there Rip, you know your are on Yahweh's side when your message proclaims few will be saved, that the gate is straight and the path is narrow.
 

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Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :
 
When you hold the sacred TRUTH in your heart, and in your hands, stand fast my dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ Jesus our Lord, stand fast.

Whatever the contrary views to His truth, they are irrelevant to our steadfast faith and conviction. Stand fast!

The world is blind, and those who reject His truth are blinded by the world's god, standfast!

The worldly throw stones from hearts astray, in those who deny His truth this day, standfast!

It matters not how straight the gate, how charged with punishment the scroll, for Christ is the Master of my fate, Christ is the Captain of my soul, standfast!

We sojourn in an alien land, rejected by worldly "truths", the wounds in flesh affect not our soul, so stay the course, standfast!

For the trump will sound, the dead arise, we'll meet our Bridegroom in the skies, standfast!

The table is laden, He cometh one day, and lifeth us upward, we shall not stay, standfast!


To my precious Brothers and Sisters in Christ Jesus our Lord, standfast!!!!!!!!!!!
 

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Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on :
 
God Bless you Brother Drew! The Lord gave me Peace last night after I read your prayer and the Scripture you gave me. I didn't think I was going to be able to sleep before that. God is SO Good!


The Lord is good, a strong hold in the day of trouble; and he knoweth them that trust in him. ~Nahum 1:7

We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair;
Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed; ~II Corinthians 4:8-9

Though I walk in the midst of trouble, thou wilt revive me: thou shalt stretch forth thine hand against the wrath of mine enemies, and thy right hand shall save me. ~Psalm 138:7

I will be glad and rejoice in thy mercy: for thou hast considered my trouble; thou has known my soul in adversities; ~Psalm 31:7

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose. ~Romans 8:28

Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all Comfort;
Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God. ~II Corinthians 1:3-4

(I had to fix a couple of typos, sorry! This is what happens when I Type instead of cut and paste )
 

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Posted by Cricket (Member # 2960) on :
 
Danny

I commend you for what you are doing. God Bless You! I think what people are missing here is - like I have said before - you sometimes have to meet people where they are at before you start preaching. You have to have patience. Get a relationship going and then share the word. If they are starving their first thought is physical not spiritual.

It seems that everyone is being lead by the spirit but all I see is disagreement and arguing. I don't think the Holy Spirit has that in mind, do you?
 

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Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :
 
That is an interesting thought Cricket. Maslow taught that didn't he? He taught that a person's needs for spiritual things esoteric things like Self actualization could not be met until the basic needs of life like food shelter and clothing were met.

This is very timely for something I am studying right now. Tell me what do you think: Does the scripture agree with the view of Maslow which you sumarized very well:

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If they are starving their first thought is physical not spiritual.

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