Christian Message Boards: School Bars Declaration Of Independence

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Posted by Niedziejkore (Member # 2773) on :

Teacher sues for right to use documents that reference God

NOVEMBER 24--A California teacher who teaches his fifth-grade students with the aid of primary source documents like the Declaration of Independence has been ordered by school administrators to stop using such artifacts of American history because the material contains references to God. In the below federal discrimination lawsuit, filed Monday in U.S. District Court, Steven Williams contends that brass at Cupertino's Stevens Creek School have recently rejected his use of "curriculum-related handouts" like the Declaration, various state constitutions, George Washington's journal, John Adams's diary, and writings by William Penn. Williams alleges that the San Francisco-area school's principal, Patricia Vidmar, banned the use of these handouts because "many original source documents from the founding era contain references to God and Christianity." Williams alleges that Vidmar cracked down on his lesson plans in May, shortly after he distributed an example of a presidential proclamation. The document he chose was one issued by President George W. Bush dealing with a National Day of Prayer. Williams, who describes himself as an "orthodox Christian," states in his complaint that he "understands and admits that he is not permitted to 'proselytize' or seek to convert his students to Christian beliefs during instructional time."

[Complete Story]

Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on :

Unfortunately this is the Logical consequence for those who believe in Separation of Church and State.

The definition of church/state separation is being re-defined, in such a way as it was never intended.

All references to the Almighty will soon be banned, as the new definition was begun by Atheists. Of note, None of the Signers of the Declaration of Independance were Atheists.

In Denver, Co a local Christmas parade is banning any religious floats that proclaim the Birth of Christ. They are promoting gays, and other themes that have nothing to do with traditional American Christmas'

Posted by Niedziejkore (Member # 2773) on :

quote:
Unfortunately this is the Logical consequence for those who believe in Separation of Church and State.

Uh, unfortunately there are consequences for everything. There would be similar consequences if church and state were united too.

There does need to be a separation of church and state, but there are some who would take it too far. This is an example of someone taking it too an extreme.

Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on :

Well we agree that banning the Declaration is going too far, so how about the Christmas parade? I heard they are allowing Gay Indian holy men as part of this Christmas parade, so isn't that a "religion"? but they are banning the traditional Christian message of Christ's birth.

Posted by Niedziejkore (Member # 2773) on :

that's just as rediculous. but if theres no public outcry within the community, then it's fine... city governments can do what they want, but if citizens feel their government has gone too far, they're not going to re-elect those people (which is important to politicians) so, i guess it will get sorted out in the end. Thank God for true Democracy.

but have you ever been to a christmas parade lately? they're highly commercialized now. Going to them it's almost like watching a bunch of advertizements for local businesses. And you never see anything related to religion. Just a bunch of clowns and a Santa Claus, the mayor, etc. riding in cars. In my view, christmas parades aren't a religious or spiritual experience. Don't get me wrong, i love a parade, but i see Christmas parades for what they are. The meaning has been sucked out of christmas, not by the american citizens or the secular community, but by capitalism and corporations.

Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on :

I think the Founders of America wanted it known that this country honors and worships God Almighty.

A belief in the Almighty is NOT a religion.

How one worships God is Religion.

They didn't want one Religion to be the official government-sponsored religion.

They did want Freedom of Religion, and this included allowing anyone to be able to speak about their religion in the civil arena.

Posted by Niedziejkore (Member # 2773) on :

I wouldn't say that all our founders worshipped the Christian God, and the people did not like all our Founders.

quote:
Unfortunately this is the Logical consequence for those who believe in Separation of Church and State.

Unfortunately there are consequences for everything. There would be similar consequences if church and state were united too.

There does need to be a separation of church and state, but there are some who would take it too far. This is an example of someone taking it too an extreme.

quote:
None of the Signers of the Declaration of Independance were Atheists.

Well, what do you consider to be an atheist? I'm asking because Thomas Jefferson was a Deist, and if you know anything about the man and his beliefs, back when he was elected some people around new england buried their bibles because they thought an atheist like Jefferson would abolish thier bibles. John Adams continuously accused Benjamin Franklin of being a "closet atheist" as well. Have you read or heard of the "Jefferson Bible"? Basically, he cut the bible to shreds, removing parts of it he found absurd, taking out all the contradictions and "miracles" and scientific untruths. Quite an interesting read, but the point is, it really can't be said that all the signers of the declaration of independence were christians in what you might consider to be the true meaning of the word.

Unless you're saying that all the founders believed in some form of an all powerful deity, that would be true... then i guess answering my own question, I have to say you're right: none of the founders were atheists by definition. But if you're saying the founders believed in the christian god, well... i'd have to disagree.

Deists Hu Williamson, Gouv. Morris, Benjamin Franklin, and James Wilson (Chief Justice) all signed the United States Constitution.

Deists Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, and James Wilson (Chief Justice) all signed the Declaration of Independence.

On a side note, Deists Cornelius Harnett and Gouv. Morris were both signers of the Articles of Confederation.

Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on :

Yes, that's what I meant, that all the Founders believed in a Creator, a Supreme Being they called "Providence", meaning they did make God a generic term.

As you point out, not all were Christian. As it happened there was a great Revival prior to the American Revolution, so Christianity was prevelant, and generally accepted, even if all didn't share their beliefs, and I think Thomas Paine who wrote "Common Sense", was an Atheist.

The Madylyn Murray O'Hare "clones" need to follow Thomas Paine's example and be more "tolerant" of their brothers' and sisters' in liberty who do believe in an Almighty.

We all don't worship God the same way, or even the same god, or many worship money or oneself, but the point was that the Sons of Liberty had in Common was the cause of Freedom.

The wanted Freedom and ability to self-govern so badly, they decided that how one decides to worship is their personal business and government should have no power over man's right to Freedom of Religion and no power over Freedom of speech.

Now we live under whatso ever causes "offense" to someone else's beliefs, has to be Kept Private and out of the public arena.

What ever happened to the Market place of "ideas" that Freedom of Speech and Religion was supposed to allow?

The Idea of Free Speech and Freedom of Religion is that; if one has good ideas, many will follow, and if one has bad ideas, less will follow, and each of us has the right to go the way (we in our conscience wishes to follow).

Now if a teacher or a public school student wears a cross necklace, suddenly it's a constitutional crisis. Yet, Muslims are given special "breaks" during the day, so they can pray 5 times a day toward Mecca. Children are taught religion in school, and it's the STATE RElIGION. It's called HUMANISM. Which is a form of Atheism.