This is topic A picture is worth a thousand words... Bush vs Kerry in forum End Time Events In The News at Christian Message Boards.


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Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :
 
Someone emailed this to me and I just could not resist. Bush vs Kerry - Photos to help you choose....

Bush/Kerry the Men...



Bush/ Kerry the husbands



Bush/Kerry the sportsmen



Bush/Kerry with Colorful Friends...



Bush/Kerry the First Ladies...



Bush/ Kerry the outdoorsmen...


 

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Posted by Niedziejkore (Member # 2773) on :
 
you know, it is funny. I'm not a fan of Kerry, but neither am I a fan of Bush. However, i could take quite unflattering photos of bush and decent photos of kerry and put them together in such a way to make G.W. look like a doofus. Actually, i think they're both the wrong candidates. Too bad there will never be another philosopher-president such as Thomas Jefferson of James Madison as long as we elect our leaders based on their war chests rather than their ideas. Should we really elect a president based on his image?

In other news...

U.S. preparing to concede no appreciable WMD in Iraq


"As a hurricane distracted Americans, as terrorist car bombings and U.S. air strikes bloodied Iraq, the findings of a [Charles Duelfer]-led investigation were quietly leaked in Washington. And after 16 months of trying, what his teams have found is less than little. In fact, the only unconventional weapon turned up in Iraq wasn't turned up by the Americans at all, but by the other side, Iraq's shadowy resistance. In May, in an incident causing no serious injuries, insurgent fighters in Baghdad rigged an old artillery shell as a roadside bomb, apparently unaware it was loaded with sarin nerve agent... The U.S. group's final report originally had been expected last March. On Thursday, reporters were told that even this new 1,500-word document may not be final, and there is no guarantee it will be released in much detail before the Nov. 2 presidential election."

[Full Story...]
 

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Posted by SciptureAndPrayers (Member # 3633) on :
 
Niedziejkore,

I have to agree with you. At least David Letterman gives equal time to both candidates when he makes fun of them, though he clearly favors Kerry.

That much said, it was a humorous posting and helpforhomeschoolers, as I see it, is perfectly within her rights to express both her humor and political leanings this way, as I'm sure you would agree.

As I've said elsewhere, I haven't been able to show any political favoritism ever since Ross Perot dropped out of the picture. How's that for desperate?


 

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Posted by J4Jesus (Member # 1367) on :
 
now that was funny
 

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Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
I don't think either canidate is right with God . Maybe I am wrong, but I believe when the Vice President used the "F" word and refuse to apologize and even went as fas as to say, that saying it made him feel good, that the President fell down on his job by not making him apologize. I also think that he has sold out people like me on fixed income to big pharmcies by not allowing us to get our medicine from Canada anymore. I think it is possible that the President puts on airs of spiritualness because it looks good for the GOP. But, he and God know for sure, not me.
 

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Posted by David (Member # 1) on :
 
The Vice President will not be running the country!



If you can read the below and still not know who to vote for, you need to read your bible more. Open your eyes!!!

- - - - - - -

When Christian voters turn out in large numbers, pro-family candidates win elections, but when Christians stay home we lose. It's as simple as that. A close look at John Kerry reveals why Christian voters cannot afford to sit this election out.

Kerry is a lukewarm Catholic who defies the laws of God and the Catholic Church on abortion.

Kerry voted at least six times against banning partial-birth abortions.

Kerry supports federal funding of abortions. He has consistently voted against the Hyde Amendment and other measures which would require the killing of human embryos.

Kerry was a co-sponsor of the so-called "Freedom of Choice Act," a bill which would have prohibited states from placing limits on abortion, such as parental involvement laws and waiting periods.

Kerry supports cloning to create human embryos for research that would kill them.

Kerry opposes the Child Custody Protection Act, which would prohibit individuals from taking minors across state lines for secret abortions if this deprives the parents of their right to be involved under their home state.

Kerry voted against the Unborn Victims of Violence Act which establishes that when an unborn child is injured or killed during the commission of certain violent federal crimes, the assailant may be charged with a second offense on behalf of the second victim.

Since his election to the U.S. Senate in 1984, Kerry has a 2 percent voting record on pro-life issues. By contrast, Kerry has earned a 100 percent rating from two groups which support abortion -- Planned Parenthood and NARAL Pro-Choice America.

Kerry stated that his first executive order would be to reverse the Mexico City Policy, which prohibits U.S. foreign aid to nongovernmental agencies that perform or promote abortions in foreign countries.

If elected president, Kerry will only appoint Supreme Court Justices who will uphold a woman's right to choose.

Kerry voted against the "Defense of Marriage Act."

Kerry, as an anti-war protester, marched under the flag of North Vietnam while his fellow soldiers were still fighting in Vietnam.

This election will decide which side writes the laws of the land and charts the future course of our nation. Will America become "one nation under God" or will America slide into atheistic paganism?

Frank V. Kulczak Sr.
Hanover

From: http://www.eveningsun.com/Stories/0,1413,140~9955~2399000,00.html

http://www.fishthe.net/christian_voters.htm

http://www.jhm.org/catalog/detail.asp?code=K208
 

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Posted by David (Member # 1) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by SciptureAndPrayers:
Niedziejkore,

I have to agree with you. At least David Letterman gives equal time to both candidates when he makes fun of them, though he clearly favors Kerry.

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SciptureAndPrayers

YOU DON'T GIVE EQUAL TIME TO THE DEVIL!

"Tolerance is a virtue of a man without convictions" - G.K. Chesterton
 

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Posted by David (Member # 1) on :
 


John Kerry abandoned our husbands, sons, fathers, and brothers in favor of trade and normalization of relations with Vietnam. His actions paved the way for the further abandonment of POWs and MIAs from World War II, the Korean War, and the Cold War.

John Kerry, as chairman of the Senate Select Committee on POW/MIA Affairs, ordered the destruction of committee documents, blocked avenues of investigation, and misrepresented progress on the POW/MIA issue to justify lifting of the trade embargo against Vietnam.

http://www.powmiafamiliesagainstjohnkerry.com/
 

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Posted by David (Member # 1) on :
 
http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnkerry.com/video/kerry.wmv

You want this man for President????

Please wake up!!

If you don't vote the bible, then you are not doing your Christian duty!

You must vote and vote for the right man and that is BUSH.
 

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Posted by David (Member # 1) on :
 
The case against Kerry

According to the political grapevine, former President Clinton has suggested to Sen. John Kerry that he stop talking about Vietnam.

Good advice, perhaps – albeit a little late.

So what will Kerry talk about?

It better be the future, because there's not much in his political past worth bragging about.

This is a presidential candidate far outside the American political mainstream.

He's against the death penalty.

He's for unrestricted abortion on demand.

That's always an interesting juxtaposition. Pro-abortion activists like to suggest there is something inconsistent about an anti-abortion, pro-death penalty position. I never saw any contradiction in supporting life for the innocent and punishment for the guilty, but moral relativists make no distinction between innocent life and those who take innocent life.

But how does one argue for killing unborn children and saving those who have murdered – sometimes often? It will be interesting to hear Kerry's justification of that position if the press ever bothers to ask him.

Kerry is so extreme on abortion, he's against bans on partial-birth procedures and opposed to parental-notification laws.

In the U.S. Senate, Kerry has voted with Ted Kennedy 94 percent of the time. For 10 solid years – 2001, 1999, 1998, 1993, 1992, 1989, 1988, 1987, 1986 and 1985 – they voted together 100 percent of the time. Kerry's overall rating from the Americans for Democratic Action is actually 5 points higher than Kennedy's.

As Massachusetts' lieutenant governor, Kerry supported Gov. Michael Dukakis prison furlough program. Does any one remember Willie Horton?

Kerry has opposed a balanced-budget amendment five times.

Kerry has consistently supported tax increases and opposed tax cuts.

He has a 26 percent lifetime rating from Citizens Against Government Waste.

Kerry has voted for at least seven major reductions in defense and military spending.

Kerry voted five times to raid the Social Security Trust Fund for non-Social Security spending.

Kerry was one of only 14 senators to vote against the Defense Of Marriage Act – a law signed by President Clinton.

Kerry wants to expand so-called "hate-crime legislation" to include gender, sexual orientation and disability as new victim classes.

He's for human cloning.

How's that for a record on which to run a successful presidential campaign?

No wonder Kerry wanted to talk about Vietnam. What else does he have to talk about?

When I heard Kerry tout his Vietnam War experience, I thought it was ludicrous. To me, it was like Jane Fonda running for president on her Vietnam War record. But let's face it – this guy doesn't have much in common with the electorate. He is out of step – far out of step – with the American people on virtually every issue under the sun.

So, maybe that's why John Kerry reported for duty at the Democratic convention. He was attempting to portray himself as a war hero in hopes Americans would never discover he is – and always has been – a radical socialist and moral relativist.

With a record like that, where does Kerry go now?

My prediction? He will not talk about his record. He can't. He cannot afford to defend himself any more. Instead, he will try to talk about his plans for the future. He will run away from his record – as fast and as hard as he can.

What else can he do?

What else can he say?

Where else can he run?

After all, this politician has spent his entire career in Massachusetts. And he's no longer running in Massachusetts. Now he's got to run in America.

If Americans understand his record, he's finished. He's buried. If they didn't like McGovern, Mondale and Dukakis, why would they like Kerry?

If all that isn't enough to persuade you Kerry is wrong for America, dangerous for America, I urge you to watch this 12-minute video on his foreign-policy flip-flops. After you view it, e-mail this column to every American voter you know.

http://media1.streamtoyou.com/rnc/RNC082304.wmv

http://www.fishthe.net/christian_voters2.htm
 

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Posted by David (Member # 1) on :
 
Non-negotiable Issues: Focus on the Family's Encouragement to Christian Voters

http://fishthe.net/downloads/votingnon-negotiables.pdf

Get you copy today!!!

Don't guess.


 

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Posted by Niedziejkore (Member # 2773) on :
 

quote:

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If you can read the below and still not know who to vote for, you need to read your bible more. Open your eyes!!!

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quote:

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Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
I believe they are from the Koran Grandma.

Perhaps Bush ha not read the Koran. Many Muslims believe this about the Islamic religion...that it is a religion of peace.

However if one reads the Koran one finds that those who are called extremist know better what the Koran teaches than those who claim that it is the etremeist and not true Islam that promotes terrorism.

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quote:

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But as far as who would jesus vote for? I don't think he'd vote for anyone.

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quote:

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The "Saint Clinton" products are being sold alongside another item to which some object – a baby bib with the message "I love abortion."

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quote:

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The way I see it if I vote for moral right, then people like me will suffer physcially from no health insurancde and no ablity to buy much needed meciation.

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quote:

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Solution- don't vote.

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Betty, even if you do vote for Kerry, you do what YOU think is right. You have an obligation to vote for who you think is the right person to lead this country. If you think Kerry is the person to do it, then by all means vote for him. Your vote DOES count. It is our Christian responsibility to stand up for our beliefs.

God bless.



 

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Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
In Texas we voted to get rid of excessive lawsuits and it still do not help us. Doctors are covered, people like me are not.
 

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Posted by SciptureAndPrayers (Member # 3633) on :
 
Favor Minded,

Although I really don't care for 4 more years of Bush, who, like his father, seems to have a very weak domestic policy, I agree with you that this election is a no-brainer. It's a pity. From my perspective, regardless of whatever good qualities Kerry may have, his position on abortion and gay marriage is completely unacceptable. Those alone disqualify him for me.

Changing the subject though, I think this topic is getting a little heated and unfriendly. Maybe we should all step back, take a breath, and rein in our passion a little bit. And then thank God for all our brothers and sisters that have posted on this thread.

 

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Posted by Favor Minded (Member # 3636) on :
 
Scriptureandprayers

Agreed -

My Bad -

I should have been more Christian like in my approach -

I was just defending David a bit and I found the comments to be rather negative -

I try to avoid the "Who Do You Think You Are?" comments and when I saw that about Kerry I was a little taken aback -

I for one need to keep my passions to myself in this regard -

Thanks for the reminder

I can be a little adament meself at times (I know, everybody is saying YEAH, like ALL the time

FM
 

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Posted by Niedziejkore (Member # 2773) on :
 

quote:

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Niedziejkore you didn't answer my first question. Can you? Are you afraid when you do answer it, there will be tons of quotes and voting records posted?

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I don't know... why don't you ask someone who supports Kerry? He does flip flop sometimes. Evreyone knows that... we can look at his voting records and see that.
 

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Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Ripp:
I realize that the media(ex Dan Rather)is pushing Kerry like he's our savior but let's be smart about this.

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quote:

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This is why this country is as it is - Lack of understanding. Anyone who could consider Kerry is obviously uninformed, period. When it comes to abortion, gay marriage, on and on - The choice should be clear. Kerry has not stood against these things and for a Christian it should be a no brainer -

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Ok, I think that statement is a little childish and uninformed. There is really no reason to say that anyone who would consider Kerry is uninformed because there are a lot of people who are well informed who would vote for kerry. The same even goes for Bush. Evreyone has their own agenda, and each person is going to vote for the person who fits their personal agenda.

Second, a lot of Bush supporters like to bring up the point that John Kerry changes his mind a lot. So what? I want a president who can change his mind. And this is an area where George W. Bush needs to work on: changind his mind. The man can't even admit to having made mistakes. The current administration instead of taking any blame, points it's finger at their own agencies instead of at themselves... in a matters involving war and peace. I find that higly immoral.

Throughout U.S. history, important decisions have come about because presidents changed their minds. In his first political statement, Abraham Lincoln said, "Upon the subjects of which I have treated, I have spoken as I thought. So soon as I discover my opinions to be erroneous, I shall be ready to renounce them."

And don't forget G.W.'s tasteless WMD jokes.

Here our soldiers are fighting, dying, suffering out in the desert... and their commander in chief has the balls to insult them by joking about it at an event? I call that insensitive.

Education is a very important issue to me, and Bush's No Child Left Behind is the worst thing to have happenned to our education system. If a school is doing bad, and children don't score as high on their standardized tests, the school is punished, rather than helped by the federal government. This is harmful concidering most of the schools that score bad are in poorer districts where they usually can't afford new books and are still using books from the 80s or earlier. Under Bush, education for many is screwed. the secratery of education even advocated soft drink contracts in schools.

I vote not just for or against a man, but his administration as well. The only person I have some respect for in the Bush administration is Colin Powell. Other than that, Bush's whole administration is arrogant.
 

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Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
I think that when we vote for a person for President because we think they can rid of abortion, we are making a mistake. The President has limited power in that area. My husband brought up something interesting. During President Clinton's term he appointed 2 people for the Supreme Court during the time that Congress was out so that he could put who he wanted. President Bush had several times in his term that he could have done the same but he did not. I think that a lot of republicans would be surprised at how their candidates really feel about things. Did you know that the Vice-President’s wife has come out publicly about endorsing homosexual marriage? The Vice-President is only a heart beat away from being the President. So when you say I voting for an abortion and homosexual lover with Kerry, just consider that you don't really know what the President thinks. He is republican so of course he is going to say what republicans want to hear but you don't know what is in his heart. At this point Kerry says he is against gay marriage but Vice-President's wife says she is far it.
No matter whom you put in office only the Supreme Court can change the law on gay marriage and abortion. But, Kerry says he is going to do something about health care and job outsourcing. President Bush has had 4 years and he has destroyed our economy and put our men and women in a position to lose over 1,000. Many soldiers have come back saying that they could have won already, had they been given the proper battle gear. We are in a war just like Vietnam. A war our President is not really wanting to put the fire power in to win. We have the most weapons on earth. If we went over there and fought the war with the fire power we have, the war would have been over a long time ago and 500 soldiers would still be alive. President Bush proved he cannot do the job. I AM going to vote and give Kerry a chance.
 

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Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on :
 
[QUOTE]Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
[QB] I think that when we vote for a person for President because we think they can rid of abortion, we are making a mistake. The President has limited power in that area. My husband brought up something interesting. During President Clinton's term he appointed 2 people for the Supreme Court during the time that Congress was out so that he could put who he wanted. President Bush had several times in his term that he could have done the same but he did not.{/Quote]

Texas Grandma,

President Bush HAS tried very hard to get Supreme Court and other open Judgeships filled with Pro-life Christian people and the Senate which screens these candidates has rejected his people!

The Liberal Senate including Teddy(Chappaquidick)Kennedy, Joe Biden, Arlen Specter, and Gloira Feinstein among a few have stalled any appointments Bush has tried to make. They have even turned down a Hispanic American because he wasn't "Hispanic enough" their words.

In reality they are stalling anyone who will interpret to Constitition to make Abortion limited and mostly illegal.

Pres. Bush has tried many times!

He got the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban passed, and now we see it chipped away by liberal judges going against a Law passed by the Congress of the United States.

The American Center for Law and Justice is a good resource for political family-oriented and moral issues. It's on the Web, and has some eye-opening information. Much of this type of news never gets printed by the networks.

Pres Bush banned any new embryonic stem cell lines to be created, in Sept. of 2001, just before 9-11 occurred. He is so hated by the world, for taking a stand against this so called medical research. He is hated by Planned Parenthood, that makes money on selling aborted fetus's and hated by many others with Big money.

He is hated for being a Christian. If he hadn't taken stands on this issue the world would have loved him.

Even President Clinton took a stand on marriage as he (I couldn't believe it) signed the 1st Defense of Marriage bill when he was president.

Funny he didn't get much bad press about that. But on the other hand Clinton overturned the Congress 2 times with a veto when they passed the Partial-Birth abortion bans 2 times during his presidency.

I think that's why all the so-called women's groups like the National Org of Women never seemed outraged by his "sexual harrassment" issues.

By the way; Sexual harrassment in the workplace has nothing to do with the harressed person saying they are willing. It's about a person of greater power(President) using his influence and office to have sexual advances toward a more lowly postioned person.

If Clinton had been the CEO of any other Amercian company he would have been charged with Sexual Harrassment and fired.

Any way I had to let you know your husband is wrong about Pres Bush not putting people into the Judial system.

It's a jungle.
 

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Posted by David (Member # 1) on :
 
When you vote for a President because it will help you and your pocket book over the right moral things. You will answer to God on judgement.

But I know that most people who call them self Christian are not. And money rules their heart.

You will know who is a Christian by the way they act and things they do. If it is for self, then that pretty much states the fact.
 

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Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on :
 
Texas Grandma,

As to why Pres. Bush didn't appoint someone when Congress was out of session. I think the reason is obvious. I'm not sure he can; for one thing, and and I'm not sure Clinton did while he was in office. As there is a whole procedure for this process.

Did Clinton make executive orders to get his judges appointed?
 

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Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
Whenever Congress is not in session, the President has the authority to fill empty post. President Clinton took advantage of this twice.
President Bush did not.
 

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Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on :
 
I really believe that this election is a matter of how our country will become. The spiritual aspect can not be ignored if one is Born Again.

Our country was already split in two thoughts as evidenced by the close election and the continued conflict about that even now. Many still say Bush "stole" the election. I guess they don't understand about the Electoral College system.
It's always been known that the winner may be the one without the majority of individual votes, as Gore did have the greater number of votes, but not the Electoral votes.

The ones who dislike the outcome should work to change the Electoral College System, and make it a law to go with the popular vote alone. No.. instead I've never heard of any group trying to change the system. Most just want to say Bush's election is illegal.

I think Florida should have gotten it's act together in voting by now, but after 3 hurricaines I'm not very optimistic about that.

One can vote for a man who will treat the Iraq war veterans the same way he treated the Viet Nam war vets. He's not flip flopping, he's a peace loving hippie. That's Kerry.

Or

Vote for a man who believes Freedom has to be fought for. Believes marriage should be kept between a man and a women. Believes unborn babies need to be protected by law.

Vote for a man who does believe in Christ Jesus, or a man who believes in the United Nations.

I don't agree with everything the President has said or done. I personally wish he'd use more force in Iraq and get the troops off the ground. I think he did a gutsy thing to go into Iraq.

I wish he'd secure our borders better.

As far as Health Care goes... Both Hilary and Bill started out with this promise to the American people to have better affordable care and they had 8 years...The only thing I see that they did was to allow the Insurance Companies to call the shots, and overrride the doctors medical decisions. Now we have INsurance Companies with multi-billion dollar CEO's.

Now we have the government telling us how to live "healthy".

It will take more than 4 years to overcome this.
 

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Posted by Niedziejkore (Member # 2773) on :
 

quote:

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When you vote for a President because it will help you and your pocket book over the right moral things. You will answer to God on judgement.

But I know that most people who call them self Christian are not. And money rules their heart.

You will know who is a Christian by the way they act and things they do. If it is for self, then that pretty much states the fact.

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quote:

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Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
Whenever Congress is not in session, the President has the authority to fill empty post. President Clinton took advantage of this twice.
President Bush did not.

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quote:

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Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
I understand where you are coming from but remember a vote for President Bush is a vote for a Vice President whose wife has gone on record saying that homosexuals should be allowed to marry.

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quote:

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Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
I really believe that this election is a matter of how our country will become. The spiritual aspect can not be ignored if one is Born Again.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Niedziejkore:
And you think Bush is not concerned with his own pocketbook?

The whole reason people even vote republican anymore is because the party feeds them this line that they are "the moral party" this is not true. The Republican party is more about tax cuts for the rich, and welfare for the corporations. Do you really believe they care about abortion? Do you really believe they care about gay marriage? This is not on their list of priorities. Abortion and gay marriage weren't even mentioned in Busch's acceptance speech at the RNC. You'd think if he cared he would have at least mentioned either of them.

You can read his acceptance speech here. You have to realize that republicans tout family values only because it will bring in votes for the party. Dick Cheney's wife is even pro-homosexual marriage. Cheney's own daughtr is gay. This would lead me to believe that the republican party is not the party most of you should be voting for.

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I know you are responding to another poster.

I did hear Pres. Bush's acceptance speech. I thought it was his best one.

I do get so tired of hearing the accusation that Rep. "are for tax cuts for the rich and welfare for corporations".

Democrats are for taxing the middle income people and taxing the rich so they can't offer more jobs, and putting mega laws in place so that corporations can't afford to give their employees good benefits, or payraises.

I can tell you the Balanced Budget act affecting healthcare has added so much "red tape", that is one reason health care is so expensive. Healthcare providers had to hire an army of non-medical people to oversee the paperwork of doctors and nurses and therapists.
There's more clerks looking at the doctor's script he wrote for one's medical treatment and clerks who sent the Doctor reams of paperwork to do to authorize one stomach ulcer medicine over the generic. It's insane!

That's Democrats. Spend on the social programs and make jobs for people who don't have schooling to oversee the people who do have an education.
 

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Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
Republicans are for taxing the middle class and giving tax breaks to the rich. Republicans have always been for the rich. Kerry claims he is for the middle class, if he wins, we will see if he keeps his will.
 

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Posted by Israel (Member # 3254) on :
 
I know that God gave every human being free will and free choice, but whoever votes for Kerry should remember these verses: Proverbs 6:17 A proud look, a lying tongue, Hands that shed innocent blood. Romans 1: 18-25
1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousnes,
1:19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse.
1:21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
1:22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
1:23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible
God into an image made like corruptible man-and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
1:24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies amoung themselves.
1:25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen
1:26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature.
1:27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

These verses explain themselves, You have only one choice: SERVE GOD OR SERVE SELF We as Christians have a duty to, serve God, it is apparent that Kerry does not serve God, therefore I want no part of him, my vote goes to President Bush! Is he perfect, by no means!! but he does proclaim that Jesus as his Saviour and that he talks to the Father before making any deciion that has a great effect on America. Come on Christians vote for what is right, the Word of God, anyone who reads the Bible should know these things!! Tell me where in the Bible that it says that God supports abortion!! where God supports homosexuals or gay marriages!! Tell me, you can't find them!! Any christian who supports Kerry, better take another look at God's word, for the wrath of God will fall, if Kerry gets in. Look at it, we are in the end times, God's wrath will fall, this country was founded on God, why would you want to take God out of America.

All I'm saying is that we better vote for the man who supports God, because remember God put George W. Bush in office, and we better Thank Our Father right now that we have a man in office who isn't afraid to call Jesus his Saviour and God his Heavenly Father.

I know I will have stepped on some toes, but the truth is a two-edged sword!!!!
 

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Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
Republicans are for taxing the middle class and giving tax breaks to the rich. Republicans have always been for the rich. Kerry claims he is for the middle class, if he wins, we will see if he keeps his will.

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To be blunt; I think they all want to tax the Middle class. Democrats just want to tax the middle class more than the Repubicans.
 

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Posted by ericbusby (Member # 3883) on :
 
*shrugs shoulder*

The way I look at it. Vote as you feel right and leave it at that.

Politics can be very.... complex. I've found its better to avoid them around the supper table.
 

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Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
That is the best advice. Pray that the right person gets the job.
 

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Posted by Favor Minded (Member # 3636) on :
 
AMEN Israel -

And, although "Gone On Record" means little these days, I think we are passing judgement when we speak of His Wife and what SHE said according to somebody....

Who ELSE, EVER, IN History, has GONE ON RECORD to STOP Gay Marriage?

Who in recent elections, has GONE ON RECORD to prevent it? Who?

Oh sure, A LONG TIME ago, when presidents STILL STOOD for God, but now it is ALMOST impossible to find ANY politician who WILL go ON RECORD as being Christian, and siding with Pastors and taking a massive stand to STOP gay marriage, and get ones already in place annulled.

Apparently, to some of you that is less important than .............???????What????????

What is it Kerry does? Promote Gay Marriage? Promote Abortion and Pro Choice? Of course there is more... But then, we as Christians are to stand behind those whom God has promoted and placed in leadership over us -

Let's see, If I recall, that is Bush!

So a wise choice would be to pray AND support HIM, since he IS already there and, because Kerry has SO BLATENTLY stood for values that are purely not Christian.

I cannot understand how ANYONE could promote such a value as Gay Marrriage - Vote For Kerry, Vote for Gays, among many other things...

Did HE take a stand against them? No, did he vow to help them, and go after THIER vote? Yes -
 

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Posted by ericbusby (Member # 3883) on :
 

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You want this man for President????
Please wake up!!
If you don't vote the bible, then you are not doing your Christian duty!

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I may be annoyed by the voice on the phone that is from India, but I can tell you that those people in India are more than pleased to have those jobs that too many here in America are unwilling to do.

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The truth is that America is full of people who do not look at their service to an employer as the BIBLE says they should look at it; but then again why would they?America is no longer a nation that is influenced as much by the Bible as it is by secular humanist agenda. It is no longer they mindset of people to put HIM first; In America it is no about HIM... it is all about me...

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Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers: Do you know why jobs are outsourced? Jobs are outsourced because people in this country are not willing to work.

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HelpforHomeSchoolers Writes -

I have no doubt about it. You think that this election is not important, it is important. But not because it may mean that there will be more money for welfare programs and not because there will be less money for defense programs and not because of war in Iraq and not because of buyig drugs from Canada.... but because it is one more day that God has given us the opportunity to say and to chose whom we will serve...

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Texasgrandma writes -

Only CEO's benift from out job sourcing. Next time you have to call for tech support for anything you will ge someone is over seas, barely speaks english. Yet there are millions here in America who could do that job and are without work. A vote for President Bush is taking the food off American's table.

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Endoxus Writes -

Outsourcing isn't because American people won't work. It's because we expect at least $8.25/hr to live on, whereas in Mexico and China they expect whatever they company is willing to give them, even if it's the equivalent of $1.25... and if the labor is equally well, then why pay $8.25 when you can get it for $1.25?

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Oh But it does - Americans, and I am speaking of large volume hires, from 10 to 300 at a time, find MANY MANY who call in sick, show up late, leave early, complain, want more money, their environment is too dark, too light, chair is too high, too low, (We have laws that protect them such that they can request ERGO equipment at HUGE costs to employers) PC screen is too dark, too light, too small, too big - We have FEMA and SSI - The terminate at will states - They cannot terminate at will unless there are blatent violations of policy - A terminated worker can run to a local SSI office and get compensated on the spot almost - You just don't hear about it unless you are like me and had to sit in on many many SSI conferences and suits -

Americans, particulalrly in this environment, DO NOT want to work for long - Certainly there are some who do, and there are many with a good work ethic, but I an tell you that more than 30% are completely and totally unreliable - That affects business performance dramatically and one cannot report to the people whose business it belongs to such as Microsoft or ADobe and say, well, ya know, some of the se people just call in sick too much - Their response is to get rid of them for better workers -

The problem with that is it takes time legally - You cannot just fire someone except for lack of work - And then you have to hold a position open in the event more work / man hours become available -

You have to go through a 3 step process to terminate - WHich in turn means 90 days of continued poor performance. By then, your "Outsourcer" is done and moving their business elsewhere.

The reason I finally stepped out and we started our own business is because of this - It is NOT THE OUTSOURCE Companies, nor is it the Government, but the greedy CEO's of companies like MS that drive it - They have been doing LONG before Bush was in office.

The straw that did it was $175,000 bonus I was to receive for one of my groups perfomance. They met the requirements for 90 days on this specific task and we were awarded the money - I was going to be able to give my managers 5000 and the employees 1-3000, and the difference was going to be used for incentive programs for the next go round -

At that SAME TIME, MS decided that we HAD TO LOWER salaries of 200 people because the business model no longer supported their salaries, or MS was going to PULL the plug on 400 jobs.

We approached the poeple, told them, and while about 80% stayed and took a cut, 20% left.

Microsoft was secretly negotiating with India to move 300 jobs there at a salary base that was about 10% of what they were paying now - You see, MS loves that 90% cut in costs!

What do you think Kerry is going to do to fix that? He can't!! Microsoft and some others will continue this business model because it makes sense - Find me an American who will work for $1.50 an hour - You can't - DO YOU THINK Kerry can stop this? Hardly - All MS and others have to do is show the hardship financially it would place on them, and the devastation to an already unbalanced economy they help drive - And it would and WILL remain as it is.

Why do you think Bush supported it? He didn't if you know the details - He supported our American workers having BETTER jobs that the JUNK that companies like MS were handing out -

I have been in it for more than 20 years - LONG before all this - It has NOTHING to do with the government - Oh, the reports, the papers, the financials, they want you to believe something different - But when you are in the middle of it, and privy to EXACTLY what is going on - You see a whole other game -

Your right Betty - It is Greed - Of companies who have cornered our society - Bush ain't causin' it folks....Been going on a LONG Time...

Only NOW it is public info - I watched more than 500 people lose their jobs with a folding, 30 year, Multi Billion Dollar American Company because of Corporate America Microsoft...And Bush DIDN'T DO IT -


FM
 

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Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
Sorry Bro. but, President Bush has endorsed paying tax incentives for companies that outsource.
I also disagree about people not wanting to work. A couple of years ago, 60 minutes show cased a company that was well known for treating their employees with dignity and respect. They had the lowest number of people who left their company than any other company in American. Unions had tried to set up show in that company but the people rejected it because their bosses were so good to them. Mind you I am for unions. I had a non union job where if you got drunk with your boss you made more money than the person who did the same job working besides you. But, if a company treats their employees well than they are more apt to get better work from their people.

I worked in surgery at a hospital that had the biggest turn over in Houston because the pay was so slow. The head of anestichia (sorry, even spell check won’t help me)
went to the President of the hospital and explained how hard it was on him having new nurses all the time. He asked him to pay the nurses what other hospitals paid and to treat them better. The President said he did not care if everyone quit. He went so far as to bring 20 nurses over from the Philippians and set them up in a house across the street from the hospital so he could pay less wages. Surprise a year later the nurses left the hospital for a higher paying job across town.

My son took his job as a computer tech so serious that he often worked clear into the night on work related projects off the clock. He lived with us at the time and so I know that for a fact. The company was always telling the computer techs that their were a liability to the firm. But the President of the company did not mind calling my son away from Christmas dinner to ask him why he could not check his email. (man forgot his password).
My son did want to work and those who lost their job like he did, wanted to work too.

Republicans are for big business and have always been.
 

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Posted by SciptureAndPrayers (Member # 3633) on :
 
Okay, let's say the current economic climate isn't Bush's fault, or that of his administration. I think that's fair. I mean, realistically, this is a very complicated issue, and it doesn't do anyone any good to try to oversimplify it by pointing fingers. It's easy to try to find root causes in corporate greed, investor greed, lazy American workers, the welfare system, or NAFTA, for instance. And I'll admit, that until we get to the roots of the problem, we have little chance to effectively solve it.

But solve it we must! If you've never been homeless, you can't imagine what a horror story it can be. If you've never had to feed your kids tomato soup made from ketchup because the cupboards are bare and the wallet is empty, you've never felt the depths of inadequacy. If you've never applied for a job that 200 other people are applying for, knowing that you probably won't get it because you're overqualified you don't know what frustration is. It surely must be awful to know that the medication that you or a loved one needs is unavailable to you at a price you can afford because our government doesn't want local pharmaceutical companies to lose money. Or that you can't receive financial aid because you either make too much money or too little money to qualify. Yeah, they get you from both ends!

These are real problems facing real people every day. And not just in America. It's not enough to look for who's to blame. Let's ask God how we can fix it. Let's look to God for answers. It's not enough to sit back and say that these are sure signs of the End Times; that's a moot point. Whatever times we are in, "we" are in them, and as Christians, we are commanded to respond as Christ would.
 

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Posted by Favor Minded (Member # 3636) on :
 
Texasgrandma -
Of course there many specific instances of good people - I had MANY MANY good people -

But I can tell you that when you manage managers of 700+ employes, you see there are MANY MANY who do not want to work.

I know, I dealt with them and their lousy work ethic daily - Again, about 30% of the work force.

Our turn over rate was less than 4% in 5 years - That speaks volumes about the environment -

Again I know - I had some AWESOME employess that could never be replaced.

All I know for sure is -

A Kerry ad has Bush saying that sending jobs overseas "makes sense." But Bush didn't say that.

The quote is actually from Bush's Council of Economic Advisers. The Kerry campaign claims Bush signed the report containing those words, but that's wrong, too.

Some Bush administration officials do indeed defend the practice of contracting for white-collar services overseas as one aspect of free trade, which they say creates jobs in the US. Textbook economics supports that notion. But the Kerry ad goes too far when it makes the President seem to be rooting for the loss of US jobs using words he never used.

A Kerry ad released April 1 states that "George Bush says sending jobs overseas 'makes sense' for America." That politically clumsy remark was actually written by the President's economists, however. Bush himself never said it. The Kerry campaign went over the line in attributing the words falsely to Bush himself.

In a news release defending the ad, the Kerry campaign claims that the report in which the words appear was "signed by President Bush." But that's also false.

Actually, what Bush signed was The Economic Report of the President, which occupies only the first few pages of a 412-page volume that also contains the Annual Report of the Council of Economic Advisers , a separate document signed by the three members of the council, not by the President.

The President's signature appears on page 4, at the end of his economic report. The passage to which the Kerry ad refers appears on page 25, in the midst of the report by the President's economists. In that passage they argue that free trade benefits the nation as a whole even when it includes "outsourcing" of white-collar jobs overseas.


Council of Economic Advisers says -
Outsourcing of professional services is a prominent example of a new type of trade. The gains from trade that take place over the Internet or telephone lines are no different than the gains from trade in physical goods transported by ship or plane. When a good or service is produced at lower cost in another country, it makes sense to import it rather than to produce it domestically. This allows the United States to devote its resources to more productive purposes.


That's standard economic theory, of the sort that can be found in any freshman-level economics text. And in fact, several such textbooks have been written by none other than Council of Economic Advisers chairman Gregory Mankiw, an economist on leave from Harvard University. Mankiw's words may be good economics, but they are also bad politics, especially at a time when unemployment remains at 5.7% of the workforce.

The Kerry ad also quoted the President's "top economic advisers" as saying that moving jobs to low cost countries is a plus for the U.S. But what the White House and the President's advisers are actually saying is that trade is a plus, which is different.

The Kerry news release says that part of the ad refers to something Treasury Secretary John Snow said in an interview with the Cincinnati Enquirer on March 30. The ad makes it sound as though Snow and other advisers are rooting for Americans to lose jobs, but of course they didn't put it that way at all. What Snow actually said was that trade makes business more efficient, benefiting the entire economy.

The Enquirer interviewer said he asked Snow if outsourcing made the economy stronger, and got this response:

Snow: "It's part of trade. . . It's one aspect of trade, and there can't be any doubt about the fact that trade makes the economy stronger. . . .I was struck by the fact coming in this morning, the number of foreign companies that have operations right here,(Toyota for example) proudly displaying their logos. America can compete with anybody. What we need to do is not build walls but tear walls down. We don't have a lot of walls here. We need to tear walls down in other places, that stop our products, our services from being in the marketplace.

The newspaper said Snow praised the recent fast growth of US business productivity and suggested that contracting for services overseas has helped bring that about. "You can outsource a lot of activities and get them done just as well at a lower cost," the Enquirer quoted Snow as saying.

And that's also the way the President's chief spokesman puts it. Asked March 31 if the White House views "sourcing" as desirable or undesirable, White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan said free trade helps create jobs in the US.

McClellan: Our view is that trade and opening markets is very important to creating jobs here at home. The President is focused on creating jobs here at home in America. And one important way to continue to strengthen our economy even more is to continue opening markets and make sure that there is a level playing field for American producers and American farmers and others to compete. And that's what we will continue to do. Free trade is vital to continuing our economic growth.

Is that an endorsement of outsourcing?

McClellan: What I'm saying is that free trade -- and those that would support economic isolationism put us at a competitive disadvantage. And that harms our economy; that harms job creation here at home. Our views are very well-known that we need to continue working to open markets and make sure that America is the best place to do business in the world.

Kerry’s plan to deal with the problem of outsourcing jobs would eliminate rules allowing companies to defer paying taxes on income earned by their foreign subsidiaries until they bring the profits back to the United States.

Kerry says the elimination would ensure that American companies will be taxed on their foreign subsidiaries’ profits just like they are taxed on their domestic profits.

THIS IS NOT GOING TO STOP ANYTHING - In Fact, It may very well prevent companies LIKE TOYOTA from continuing to employ at American rates...

The president’s plan for dealing with job losses is through job training, increased funding for community colleges and creation of “opportunity zones” of reduced taxes.

Bush says the jobs picture is improving, largely due to his tax cuts which he said have helped push down the unemployment rate to 5.4 percent.


Remember - God IS OUR SOURCE! Not our jobs, our economy, etc.

Money IS A RESOURCE, GOD IS OUR SOURCE -



On More "CHRISTIAN RELATED TOPICS"


Hate Crimes: Kerry supports the inclusion of sexual orientation and gender identity in Federal Hate Crimes Law. Current law does not include either, but does include race, religion and national origin.

Family Medical Leave: Kerry supports extending the Family Medical Leave Act to same-sex couples.

Same-Sex Immigration: Kerry supports the Permanent Partners Immigration Act (H.R. 832) which would allow American citizens to sponsor their same-sex partners for immigration into the country.

Gay and Lesbian Adoption: Kerry supports gays and lesbians having the same rights to adopt children as heterosexuals.

Don't Ask, Don't Tell: Kerry supports the repeal of Don't Ask, Don't Tell, which would allow gay and lesbian soldiers to serve openly in the military.

KERRY SAYS -
I oppose discrimination of all kinds and my office policy prohibits discrimination in the workplace based on gender identity and expression. I believe we should focus efforts on getting ENDA passed and signed into law, and I am concerned that adding gender identity and expression to the ENDA legislation is likely to significantly hinder that effort."

On 2/24/04 after President Bush said he would endorse a Constitutional Amendment to ban gay marriages Kerry said, "I believe the best way to protect gays and lesbians is through civil unions. I believe the issue of marriage should be left to the states, and that the president of the United States should be adressing the central challenges where he has failed--jobs, health care, and our leadership in the world--rather than once again seeking to drive a wedge by toying with the United States Constitution for political purposes."


On 2/27/04 Kerry said, in the Boston Globe about a Massachusetts amendment to ban same-sex marriage, "If the Massachusetts Legislature crafts an appropriate amendment that provides for partnership and civil unions, then I would support it, and it would advance the goal of equal protection." He was referring only to the state constitution, not US Constitutional ban that Bush has endorsed.

Have you ever noticed how much scripture there actually is in the US Constitution?

Imagine that being removed and Civil Union Same Sex being placed in it - After all, the EU has done it, why shouldn't we - Or maybe, the US should just Join the EU, then we an use their constitution instead of ours!!

Check out this EVER SO POPULAR bumper Sticker of today -



Kerry staunchly resisted restrictions on abortions, including a ban on the 'partial birth abortions

Q: Do you support the ban on partial-birth abortions recently signed into law?
Kerry: I don't support the President's law because it doesn't allow the exception for situations where the health of the woman is at risk. I believe this is a dangerous effort to undermine a woman's right to choose, which is a constitutional amendment I will always fight to protect.

The Republicans want to criminalize the right of women to choose, take us back to the days of back alleys, gag doctors and deny families the right to plan and be aware of their choices - we Democrats want to protect the constitutional right of privacy and make clear that at the center of this struggle is our commitment to have a Supreme Court that will protect the equal rights, the civil rights, and the right to choose in this nation.

Voted NO on criminal penalty for harming unborn fetus during other crime. This Bill would make it a criminal offense to harm or kill a fetus during the commission of a violent crime. The measure would set criminal penalties, the same as those that would apply if harm or death happened to the pregnant woman, for those who harm a fetus. It is not required that the individual have prior knowledge of the pregnancy or intent to harm the fetus. This bill prohibits the death penalty from being imposed for such an offense. The bill states that its provisions should not be interpreted to apply a woman's actions with respect to her pregnancy.

Voted NO on maintaining ban on Military Base Abortions.

Voted NO on banning partial birth abortions.
This legislation, if enacted, would ban the abortion procedure in which the physician partially delivers the fetus before completing the abortion. (A NO vote supports abortion rights)

Voted NO on disallowing overseas military abortions.
The Murray amendment would have repealed current laws prohibiting overseas U.S. military hospitals and medical facilities from performing privately funded abortions for U.S. service members and their dependents.

Oh - And let's not forget how those dead babies can be used!!

Kerry signed a letter from 58 Senators to the President

Dear Mr. President:

We write to urge you to expand the current federal policy concerning embryonic stem cell research.

Embryonic stem cells have the potential to be used to treat and better understand deadly and disabling diseases and conditions that affect more than 100 million Americans, such as cancer, heart disease, diabetes, Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, multiple sclerosis, spinal cord injury, and many others.

We appreciate your words of support for the enormous potential of this research, and we know that you intended your policy to help promote this research to its fullest. As you know, the Administration's policy limits federal funding only to embryonic stem cells that were derived by August 9, 2001.

However, scientists have told us that since the policy went into effect more than two years ago, we have learned that the embryonic stem cell lines eligible for federal funding will not be suitable to effectively promote this research. We therefore feel it is essential to relax the restrictions in the current policy for this research to be fully explored.

Among the difficult challenges with the current policy are the following:

While it originally appeared that 78 embryonic stem cell lines would be available for research, only 19 are available to researchers.

All available stem cell lines are contaminated with mouse feeder cells, making their therapeutic use for humans uncertain.

It is increasingly difficult to attract new scientists to this area of research because of concerns that funding restrictions will keep this research from being successful.

Despite the fact that U.S. scientists were the first to derive human embryonic stem cells, leadership in this area of research is shifting to other countries.

We would very much like to work with you to modify the current embryonic stem cell policy so that it provides this area of research the greatest opportunity to lead to the treatments and cures for which we are all hoping.


At least Kerry will have the Gay votes - Then we can look forward to Gay Marriage Licenses in America if he gets elected - And, we can look forward to increased abortion - A plus for the doctors who do it and the Pharmaceutical companies - And we can look forward to happier Parkinsons victims because instead of using Pigs which work JUST as well, they will be able to start using humans again for their stem cell research -

I wonder if God thinks thats a plus??


FM
 

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Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on :
 
Office of Tomorrow Has an Address in India
U.S. companies that discreetly embrace outsourcing find workers -- accountants typists, editors -- who are eager and talented.
By David Streitfeld
Times Staff Writer

August 29, 2004

MADRAS, India — Task by task, function by function, the American office is being hollowed out and reconstituted in places like this, a makeshift facility on the sixth floor of a shopping arcade.

OfficeTiger Ltd., one of the most prominent and aggressive of a new breed of outsourcing companies, has hired 2,000 Indians, most of them young and all of them relentlessly gung-ho.

They work as typists, researchers, librarians, claims processors, proofreaders, accountants and graphic designers. Their clients are U.S. brokerage firms, investment banks, law firms and even copy shops.

The Indians take on jobs both big — 100-page investment reports requiring weeks of work — and small. Iayaraja Marimuthu, for instance, is designing a program for next month's wedding of Ann and John, a Texas couple proclaiming their joy in being "together for life." It will take him less than an hour.

Outsourcing, which started with U.S. firms laying off software programmers and call center workers and hiring cheaper employees overseas, is now stretching to encompass almost any kind of work that is done on a computer and is orderly and repetitive in structure. That's a vast category that stretches from copy editing to financial analysis to tax preparation.

Just as voice mail reduced the need for receptionists and word processors transformed the traditional role of secretaries, outsourcing is beginning to reshape the American office, eliminating some jobs and redefining others. Its proponents say it will lift the burden of tedious chores from millions of office workers, giving them more time to spend on challenging and creative enterprises.

"We're allowing employees to delve deeper, to learn more, to push the boundaries of what had been standard work," says OfficeTiger's American co-founder, Joe Sigelman.

That's one side of the argument.

But for other employees, outsourcing means the permanent threat of dismissal in favor of someone who can do the same job for one-tenth the salary.

It also means revamping the methods of entering certain professions, including law and finance. There's a time-honored tradition in those fields of making new associates do the drudgery. It teaches them the subject and winnows the number of aspirants to the truly dedicated. That won't happen if the drudgery is shipped elsewhere.

Some economists say outsourcing is so pervasive that it helps explain why the U.S. economy is doing a poor job of creating employment. Analysts expected a net increase of 200,000 positions in July, but payroll growth totaled 32,000. The August employment report will be released Friday.

Sigelman said he was doing his best to keep American corporate hiring down.

"We hope to be leading the move of white-collar jobs from the U.S.," he told the Economic Times, an Indian paper, in December.

Although many Indian firms, as well as American multinationals, are setting themselves up as outsourcers, OfficeTiger is particularly striking because it has come so far so quickly on so little.

Founded four years ago by two New Yorkers in their early 30s who had no expertise in the Internet, bureaucracy in India or even starting a business, the firm says it will have revenue of $40 million this year. Eight of the best-known financial firms in New York and London have signed on as clients.

Most started tentatively, with just a few employees doing data processing. But they rapidly scaled up, moving more jobs and more complex jobs. Stock market analysts are among the latest to see their work realigned.

Among other things, associate analysts prepare information on possible corporate acquisition targets. They go to databases, pull documents and put numbers into templates that can compare the company with its competitors.

"Once you've done it a couple of times, it's highly repetitive," says an OfficeTiger client, an executive with a New York investment bank. "You can't be an idiot, but you don't have to be Albert Einstein."

As this work, too, gets shifted to India, the executive predicts that there will be "fewer but happier analysts. They'll be doing more brainpower work."

The process is already moving beyond the associates.

Vinitha Venkat is an OfficeTiger manager whose team assembles data for a Wall Street brokerage firm that declined to be named. She and a colleague are going to New York, where they will enroll in the broker's analyst training program.

"I'm waiting for them to send everything to us," says Venkat, 27. "I don't think it will take that long."

During the flush times at the end of the 1990s, when it seemed the dot-com boom would go on forever, any young person with an ounce of ambition wanted to start his own company.

Sigelman and Randy Altschuler, best friends since their first day at Princeton University, had good jobs on Wall Street — Sigelman with Goldman Sachs, Altschuler at Blackstone Group — but dreamed of setting out on their own. The eureka moment came one evening when they were both waiting for documents to come back from the word-processing pool.

Junior investment bankers have to do this a lot, and it's one of the more frustrating parts of the job. They live by the presentations they make for their bosses and clients, and every word must be checked and double-checked. If too many documents are submitted at once, the wait can be interminable, like it was that evening.

To fill the time, the friends were chatting on the phone, as they often did. Then their impatience and ambition merged, and they started talking about using technology to create an off-site support center to process documents.

Sigelman and Altschuler scraped the initial funding together. Then they got lucky: The tech stock bubble burst. Financial firms shrank, and then shrank some more.

"The recession forced people to push the issue of outsourcing faster and further than they would have in a boom," says Peter Lowes, an outsourcing specialist with consulting firm Deloitte & Touche. "Now that there's a recovery, there's no slowdown. In fact, it's accelerated."

*

At Odds Over Numbers

How many jobs are being transferred is a matter of dispute. In the government's first effort to come up with an official tally of jobs sent outside the U.S., it concluded a mere 4,633 employees in the first quarter were laid off because their jobs were moved to another country.

Morgan Stanley chief economist Stephen Roach thinks such numbers greatly understate the job shift. "A new force has come into play that is now altering the fundamental relationship between domestic demand and domestic employment in the United States," Roach recently told clients.

He termed it "global labor arbitrage" — the high-tech "efficiency tactics" that allow U.S. companies "to substitute high-wage domestic workers with like-quality, low-wage foreign workers in goods-producing and services-providing functions alike."

Roach sums up: "Subpar job creation in the U.S. could well be here to stay."

Part of the reason it's difficult to measure the effect of outsourcing is because nearly every company doing it, including all but one client of OfficeTiger, declines to be publicly named. Some sense of the speed with which companies warm to the process can be seen in the announcements of Reuters, the financial news giant.

Late last year, Reuters said it would send 200 data-processing jobs to India. In February, it said it would hire six Indian journalists to do basic financial analysis of U.S. companies, a move a Reuters executive said would "free up" journalists in the West. Three weeks ago, Reuters said it would cut 20 journalism jobs in unspecified high-cost locations and hire 40 journalists in India to do their work and more.

Editorial work in the form of copy editing is already an Indian fixture. A few blocks from OfficeTiger is Alden Prepress Services, a division of an English printer that dates to 1832. Alden prepares for publication dozens of U.S. and European journals, including Foot and Ankle Surgery, the Journal of Molecular Biology and the International Journal of Fatigue.

Alden began in India five years ago with five employees, and now has 100 editors and 270 other employees. They review articles for consistency and intelligibility, and query authors by e-mail if there's a question they can't straighten out on their own. Alden then typesets the material and transmits the finished journal to the printer.

This means that the editors of, say, Pain, the official journal of the Seattle-based International Assn. for the Study of Pain, can concentrate on finding the best articles. Alden recently announced it would expand its Madras staff by 60% this year.

Examples like these are why business forecasters are forced to keep updating their calculations. Forrester Research just boosted its estimate of the number of jobs that will be outsourced by the end of 2005 by nearly 50%, to 830,000 from 558,000. In one year, 43 financial multinational companies quintupled the number of offshore workers they employed to 1,500, a survey by Deloitte Research found.

Over the longer term, Celent Communications, a consulting firm, calculates that 2.3 million financial jobs are at risk. Researchers at UC Berkeley think that as many as 14 million jobs of all types are vulnerable.

In reaction to such numbers, measures are being proposed to limit outsourcing. Last week, both houses of the California Legislature passed a bill that would prevent the state from hiring contractors that use outsourced workers. Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger has not said whether he will sign it.

"I hate it when Americans lose jobs, obviously," says OfficeTiger's Altschuler, who works out of New York. "I'm an American, and think that's terrible."

He makes the standard argument in favor of outsourcing, one endorsed by many economists: "If you put up barriers to save jobs, the exact opposite will happen. As companies get less profitable, more Americans will lose jobs."

Outsourcing, however, isn't only about money. Proponents say it's often about quality, too, which would make them even more unhappy to see protectionist barriers enacted.

Allen & Overy, a large English law firm, has 74 people working for it full time at OfficeTiger, which allowed it to lay off 50 people back home this year. Yet the firm's head of operational services, Steven Chernikeeff, says the firm "didn't come here for cost cutting. The main driver was getting a better value for the money. When we advertise for document processors in England, we don't get people with master's degrees. And they've got passion for their work here. You don't always see that in the West."

India has so many educated people and so few office jobs that people often do outsourcing work they're overqualified for. And they're happy to do so.

Unemployed and poorly paid lawyers and paralegals are eager to come to work for OfficeTiger to type revisions of Allen & Overy's legal briefs. Because these employees have legal training, it also makes sense for OfficeTiger to try to get some assignments doing more complicated legal work.

"I have a friend who's a lawyer in the States who says appeals cost $30,000 because of all the work that needs to be done in researching precedents. All that could be done here," says OfficeTiger executive Lou Fox.

The first lawyer to successfully outsource to India the actual writing of a brief will either make a handsome profit or be able to undercut the competition to win a lot of business. To get a slice of this business, OfficeTiger formed an alliance in June with a New York legal consulting company.

Fox contends that just about every corporate job has elements that can be outsourced, even if part of it — litigating in a courtroom, making a sales call — must be done in person. Outsourcing is inevitable, he says. "There's going to be a big job shift. Geography doesn't make a difference anymore."

Madras is a perpetually humid city on India's southeastern coast with a population of 6 million. Unlike Bangalore or Hyderabad or other high-tech centers, it's a conservative place where traditional Indian life holds sway. Grown children live with their parents. Arranged marriages are the rule. A new couple moves in with his folks. Only watchmen work at night.

"My mom used to call me, 'When are you coming home?' " says Vidhyavathy Munnuswemy, a manager on an investment banking team.

To a cynical American's ears, employees like the 25-year-old Munnuswemy sound unbelievable.

How many people in the U.S. would say, "For three years, I didn't go on vacation; I didn't feel like it," as she does?

This sort of zeal is widespread at Indian outsourcing companies, if little understood. At Wipro, one of the biggest companies, the phenomenon has a nickname: the Hafim generation, after slang for a drug. The Hafims act as if they're drugged, as if they take enthusiasm pills every morning.

It can't be the ambience that is making them this way. OfficeTiger's offices are high-tech, with rooms accessible only by electronic card swipes. The chairs would flunk any ergonomic test. There are three shifts, which means no one can personalize his desk, and no natural light. Not many clocks, either. Sigelman compares it approvingly to a casino: It's a place without distractions.

This is Munnuswemy's life, all night long. Her college dreams of being an aeronautical engineer are forgotten. "The more you work, the more you enjoy it," she says. "Well, except for drinking and dancing, but it would be boring to do that every day."

Of course, the company's been good to her too. She won't reveal her salary but starting wages are $1,000 a month, and she's moved far beyond that. With her savings and a loan, she's buying a $90,000 apartment for herself and her parents. It's bigger than the place the family has now, with a pool and security.

Still, the passionate attachment to the outsourcing companies by their employees goes far beyond the money.

"In New York, people do this work as a means to an end — housewives, students, actors," says OfficeTiger executive Lonnie Sapp, an American. "It's a quick way to make a buck. Here, they're not driven by the paycheck."

*

Prestige and money

Part of it is the appeal of working, even indirectly, for a brand-name corporation, a mark of high achievement here. Another is the sense that the rigid Indian business culture, where rising through the ranks is a glacial process, is being broken up. If you choose to work hard, you'll get somewhere — and will make good money too.

"I took a pay cut to come here," says Sangeetha Ravi, an OfficeTiger administrator. "Now I'm making twice as much as I was, and it's only been a year and a half."

The last time OfficeTiger ran a help-wanted ad — it intends to double in size to 4,000 people by the end of next year — it received 1,500 applications for 15 jobs.

It sounds ideal, this setup, the beginning of a long-term relationship. Yet perhaps part of the urgency among the OfficeTiger employees is that they know how suddenly this romance could end, how soon they could be like the American workers no one wants.

"OfficeTiger is not about India," Sigelman says. "It's about scouring the world to find the best cross-section of value and talent."

The company is opening an office in Sri Lanka, its first in South Asia outside India.

There will be others. Sigelman is keeping a particular eye on China. After all, they're learning English there.

"In five years," he says, "all this may change."
 

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Posted by ericbusby (Member # 3883) on :
 
Wow I just read that article.

Kind of creeps me out. Being between jobs right now is creepy enough as it is. Thinking I may not be able to find anything in my field, let alone any other field because of outsourcing, is really quite scary.

*shudder*
 

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Posted by ericbusby (Member # 3883) on :
 

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When you vote for a President because it will help you and your pocket book over the right moral things. You will answer to God on judgement.

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But when I read this I get the impression that unless you do more than that. Then accepting Christ is not enough and your not really saved. Not to mention that it seam if you vote wrong then you have offended God thus your not saved and will answer to him for voting wrong.

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But when I read this I get the impression that unless you do more than that. Then accepting Christ is not enough and your not really saved. Not to mention that it seam if you vote wrong then you have offended God thus your not saved and will answer to him for voting wrong.

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2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
 

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Posted by Ripp (Member # 3832) on :
 
Hard to believe this thread is still going. Of course, it will probably go til November. I have given up trying to make political points. It's like trying to persuade a 2nd grader that eating broccoli is good for them (on both sides) . Once people get set in their ways, it's VERY difficult to try and explain things to them. So I choose to focus my energy in other areas. I don't have much time these days to do anything else. My school work and a job are enough.

I just pray that the person elected is God's choice.
 

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Posted by Endoxos (Member # 2929) on :
 

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Originally posted by Ripp:
I just pray that the person elected is God's choice.

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"He changes times and seasons; he sets up kings and deposes them. He gives wisdom to the wise and knowledge to the discerning." Daniel 2:21

"'Do you refuse to speak to me?' Pilate said. 'Don't you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?' Jesus answered, 'You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin.'" John 19:10-11

"Do not revile the king even in your thoughts, or curse the rich in your bedroom, because a bird of the air may carry your words, and a bird on the wing may report what you say." Ecclesiastes 10:20

"Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men. Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God. Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king." 1 Peter 2:13-17

No matter who wins the election, it *WILL* be God's choice, and even if we *don't* agree with their views, we still are to honor them as our leader.
 

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Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
apisdn umop

I agree with you. No matter who wins, we should pray for them.
betty
 

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Posted by Favor Minded (Member # 3636) on :
 
AMEN!!
 

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Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on :
 
For who knows, the LORD may choose Kerry to make things better or worse, because ultimately the LORD is preparing the circumstances in the earth for the coming of His Son Yehoshua-Jesus, and sometimes that means that the LORD has to choose a "certain" candidate to accomplish His purposes.

May God bless us all on this BBS, BORN AGAIN
 

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Posted by Aaron (Member # 3761) on :
 
The thing about our electoral system is our nation gets to have the "king" they choose and we are thusly judged according to the man's character. He does, after all, by definition "represent" us. So, for instance, when the people re-elect a president based upon the country's current economic strength erstwhile ignoring the egregious character of the man (re: Clinton) we can expect God to move against us and our perceived notion of economic prowess (World Trade Center disaster and recession).

So what happens now if our country puts its own protection (WMD's = only justification for war) over the oppression of the Iraqi people under the Baathist regime? I say it is likely that we will become oppressed ourselves.

Aaron
 

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Posted by Aaron (Member # 3761) on :
 

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Originally posted by Endoxos:
"Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men. Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God. Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king." 1 Peter 2:13-17

No matter who wins the election, it *WILL* be God's choice, and even if we *don't* agree with their views, we still are to honor them as our leader.

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based upon the country's current economic strength erstwhile ignoring the egregious character of the man (re: Clinton) we can expect God to move against us and our perceived notion of economic prowess (World Trade Center disaster and recession).

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Originally posted by ericbusby:
[QUOTE]Let me see if I'm reading this right.....

It's you belief that the trade centers were attacked because Clinton was elected President?
Even though Bush was president at the time of the attack. And God was behind the whole thing?

Thats quite an interesting theory.

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Were we not warned on February 26, 1993?

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It was in 1999 that our "king" came under judgment for his actions. Even them the true matter was not presented to the American people. What was presented was: "Does this man's actions weaken the Republic of which he is representative?" The true issue was, "Does the conduct of the man offend a Holy God? And since he is a reflection of us should he therefore be removed and the nation be called to repentance?"

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Why would judgment come during the rule of the following king? Because our merciful God desires that we repent that we might be restored. Such things are not possible during the reign of a king who mocks God.

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Originally posted by ericbusby:
But I do not feel God had anything to do with the events of 9/11.

Our guard was down and someone sucker punched us.... Both times.

I think I'll be leaving now. I came to try and understand faith and God.... But I don't think I'm going to find answers here


Admin can you delete my account please?

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Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
It has been proven that both President Clinton and President Bush Sr. and Jr. made mistakes that enabled Sept 11 to happen. But I do NOT believe we can blame either one.

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Certainly not! The nation chose him as our representative a second time and then chose him a third (his approval rating was quite high even during the trial).

This is not a political matter: Democrat vs. Republican. As I've pointed out earlier the sitting president calls muslims and Christians "brothers"- echoing the sentiment of many (most?) Americans. What will happen to the "people of the promise" if they should promote "brotherhood" with the people of bondage? And this from a guy who has voted "Republican" all his life.

Just things to consider. And if, as most of us agree, we are in the last days then our choices become more important.

Phew! I've posted some sobering things. I'd like to move on now. Such things, with the emotions they touch, tend to wear on the "bond of peace".

God bless you and keep you till the coming of our Lord!
Aaron
 

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Posted by CBJ (Member # 3810) on :
 
I intend to vote in November, have put much thought into it, and I generally like to read the things people are saying about both candidates, in both the secular forums as well as Christian Forums as this, but I can tell you that all that went out the window when I read this just now:

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Originally posted by Niedziejkore
However, I do hate Bush enough that I will vote him out of office.

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Originally posted by Favor Minded:Proof that even "Christians" do not know what the Word says about their leadership or what to do with and for and about it...It is sad that we can let morality slip...(and on and on)

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What do you MEAN you hate Bush?

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Originally posted by CBJ:
People are reading this forum, and Christians are responsible to those unbelievers who might be looking over your post right this very minute, and waiting for your explanation "about what the Word says about Christian leadership".


Step up, instruct others in the spirit of loving exhortation, and follow the Father...


CBJ

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CBJ,

Excellent point. Just this week we witnessed an unbeliever who came to this forum out of curiosity. He lasted two days, after providing some interesting and insightful posts, before throwing up his hands and leaving the board for good. And it wasn't because of any personal attacks made on him, but because of the self-righteousness and lack of compassion he witnessed in the posts.


 

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Posted by CBJ (Member # 3810) on :
 

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Originally posted by Favor Minded:
While I agree I was less than appropriate, I would also encourage you to spend some time reeading some of the many extensive threads on various subjects, and get to know the members and their repsective points of view, passions, etc.

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Notice that thse were all mor ethan 2 years ago?

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Oh, right... it's fine to bash Kerry for things he did 30 years ago, but when someone brings up something bush did two years ago i'm delving too far into his history?

2 years isn't that long ago! This is stuff he's done since in office. 9/11 was only 3 (three) years ago.
 

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Posted by Ripp (Member # 3832) on :
 
I had one more thought on this election. Remember folks that there are some judge seats that need to be filled. Some are supreme court seats that will reside over a lot of serious cases including gay marriage. The president who is elected will nominate these judges. Just a thought as you make your decision this year.



 

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Posted by Favor Minded (Member # 3636) on :
 
Not ONCE have I BASHED Kerry - And regardless of what others are doing, it does not have anything to do with 30 YEARS AGO!!

It has to do with morality - And that was NOT 30 years ago...

I have not heard you once speak to that, at all.

Those are the Christian morals - The children.

Please explain how Kerry and his promotions help our children and please explain hw this is morally acceptable in Gods eyes?

I would like to hear your stand on IMPORTANT issues.

Speak from a Christian moral perspective.

Do you honestly believe that God wants a President who will condone a leader who OPENLY wants to help teach children Gay Sex Ed? Gay home life styles and Gay adoption?

The Lord Jesus COMMANDS you do not cause a child to stumble -

That alone should be enough to know what is morally right to do....


Mark 9
Causing to Sin

42"And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck. 43If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.[1]

I say Kerry WILL HAVE MUCH to answer for in causing children to stumble -

This issue is more important than anything else in my opinion...
 

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Posted by Favor Minded (Member # 3636) on :
 
Again -

Did you know Mass has begun teaching Gay Sex Ed in school?

AND, they are planning on introducing Gay lifestyle AND Gay adoption to kindergarteners?

Do you know what the connection to Kerry and Mass IS?
 

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Posted by Israel (Member # 3254) on :
 
I am so thankful there will be no elections in Heaven

BTW I just saw on FOX NEWS where Kerry wants the church to stay out of politics. I wonder if the men who wrote the constitution is rolling in their graves, Kerry Beware Ghost of politics past might come to you some night

Israel
 

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Posted by Niedziejkore (Member # 2773) on :
 

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Do you know what the connection to Kerry and Mass IS?

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Do you honestly believe that God wants a President who will condone a leader who OPENLY wants to help teach children Gay Sex Ed? Gay home life styles and Gay adoption?

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We're not voting for the people Kerry is condoning. We're voting for John Kerry.

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I cannot even comment on that

It is not about what they have control over, it is about what they stand for...

The Word / The Bible is FULL of war, violence, and standing for what is right -

So do I think God would support a President who stood for morality? Absolutely -

And tha t speculative funding issue has little to do with Christian morality -

So you are saying that what they stand for does not matter...

I believe to God it truly does matter...
 

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Posted by ericbusby (Member # 3883) on :
 

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The alternative view is that our provision hangs on the whim of certain radical groups. Interesting that you are more inclined to believe that.

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Originally posted by Niedziejkore:
wow. "Jesus Day" how ingenious. He's a Christian without a doubt.

nevermind the fact that he said he believes Roe vs Wade shouldn't be overturned. And he believes abortion is justified in the case of incest or rape.

pro-life? hah!

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And let's forget about that interview with Dianne Sawyer where he agreed that gay "civil unions" were alright if done at the state level. He also appoints open homosexuals to high positions. Here's a cut and paste list:

On April 9, 2001, he appointed a renown homosexual activist Scott Evertz to the Office of National AIDS Policy, which was the first appointment of an open homosexual to this federal position.[29] On June 18, 2002, he transferred Evertz to direct U.S. Policy on Global Fund for AIDS and appointed another homosexual activist to take over as new director of the Office of National AIDS Policy.[30] On September 18, 2001, President Bush appointed a homosexual activist to be Ambassador to Romania at the protest of the Romanian government. Furthermore, President Bush authorized a Clinton policy that allows an “unmarried partner” of a foreign aid worker to be given the same status as a married spouse. So the ambassador’s homosexual lover accompanies him to official government functions, travels with and resides with him on the taxpayers’ tab.[31] On August 22, 2001, President Bush appointed an open homosexual to the U.S. Commission on Fine Arts.[32] He presided over the appointment of another open homosexual to oversee the choice of civilian personnel at the Pentagon.[33] The Bush administration posted a job for a "gay and lesbian program specialist" at the Department of Agriculture. On November 1, 2001, President Bush appointed an open homosexual to the State Department as an arms control advisor, which was the first appointment of an openly gay person to a senior arms control post. President Bush insisted that openly homosexual Congressman Jim Kolbe of Arizona be given a prominent speaking role at the Republican National Convention.[34],[35] On January 25, 2002, President Bush appointed many openly gay Republicans to the President’s Advisory Council on HIV/AIDS.[36]

Way to go for Christian values!!!

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Do I really have to go on? I will if that's not enough to convince you. I'm sure others would agree that his comments that Christians and Muslems worship the same god to be a bit heretical. And isn't his bowing down at a Shinto Shrine in japan a bit blasphemous as well?

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The Patriot act is slowly turning our country into an ever-growing police state. Do you even know what's all in the Patriot act? I've read it, and every American should too.

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Originally posted by ericbusby:
Well it depends on ones point of view I'd guess.

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Why shouldn't the President be able to appoint competent people regardless of their sexual preference, even if he espouses Christianity?
In fact as a Christian he should strive to be fair in appointing the best people for the job.
It's jobs, not a religious bishopship!

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